to. thank you for that. and before we go, they say you can't teach an on lold new tricks, but maybe this old dog can teach us a thing or two. bobby is the world's oldest dog, celebrating his birthday. they served local fish and meats, with extra for bobby because he only eats human food. the secret, the calm and peaceful environment he lives in. 31, by the way, is 217 in dog years. that dust it for us this hour. joining us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday, 1:00 to 3:00 eastern on msnbc. "katy tur reports" starts right now. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. governor roy cooper is just

looking for one vote. just one. and he's asking north carolinians to help him. cooper who is not running for reelection is on the campaign trail. campaigning not for himself but for access to abortion. pressure your republican state lawmaker he's pleading, tell the state house a 12-week abortion ban is too extreme. >> standing in the way of progress right now is this republican super majority legislature that only took 48 hours to turn the clock back 50 years on women's health. if just one republican in either the house or the senate keeps a campaign promise to protect women's reproductive health, we can stop this ban. >> the north carolina

legislature voted to roll back legal abortions from 20 weeks to 12 earlier this month. on saturday, governor cooper, a democrat vetoed that bill, and that would have been that, except for what state rep trisha cotham did back in april. she won and ral bied as a republican, giving -- she has long spoken on the side of reproductive rights. she was even endorsed in her last election by the abortion rights group, emily's list. she did vote for that 12-week ban, by the way, but will she do it again now that the issue is arguably hers alone to decide? would she be the one vote governor cooper is looking for or is he looking towards someone else? why don't we ask him. joining me now is north carolina governor roy cooper. thank you so much for being here. i'm going to put that something on hold for just a poke. i want to put on the screen what

the bill has in it. 20 weeks to 12 as we were talking about. there are new rape and incest limits, those are at 20 weeks. fetal anomalies, 24 woeks. they still protect for the mother's life. $160 million including in this bill for child care and terrainal leave for teachers and employees. there's also a lot of restrictions if you want to get an abortion, within the legal time frame, you have to consult with a doctor ahead of the abortion. you have to get the abortion pill in person. there's new licensing on collins. the republican party in north carolina governor says that this is a common sense compromise. they've pointed to other states where the abortion limits are much skooner, six weeks even. is this compromise common sense in your opinion. >> it's absurd to call this legislation a common sense compromise. you don't do that when you keep it under lock and key, release

it, and then vote on it within 48 hours with no amendments, with no public input. the problem with this legislation is that it creates an obstacle course for women to be able to seek reproductive care. it makes it so much harder for her and the clinics, and it puts the doctors in a very precarious situation. they dressed this up and disguised it so that it will like like it's more reasonable than surrounding states. but the effect on the ground won't be that way. and we just need one republican who would have the courage to step skpup say no. they only have a super majority by one vote in both the house and the senate. and i think the people of north carolina are tired of right wing

politicians who want to get into the exam room with a woman and her doctor, and they are now hearing from the people of north carolina, now that they've had a chance to understand what's in this bill is not a 12-week ban. it's worse than that. and i think people are understanding that and beginning let legislatures know, and we're hoping one will stand up and do the right thing. >> let me put on the screen how north carolinians feel about abortion. and you can see this the from a poll taken in february, maintain the current 20-week limit with restrictions afterwards, 31st. exand access between the 20-week limit, 26%. that's 57% of the population that says they want to keep it as it is or make it more accessible. even though this says it's a 12-week ban, down from 20 weeks, a 12-week ban, which the republicans argue is much more

lenient than other republican states, you're saying it's going to be a new licensing on clinics, and if you are can you expand on that? >> yeah, number one, there is a ten-week ban on medication abortion, and that's how most women access their reproductive, they advertise as a 12-week ban, when they put in a 10-week ban for medication abortion. already in north carolina people are backed up with appointments, sometimes four weeks wait time. we've become an access point in the southeast so we know clinics are already strained. with these new requirements on clinics, many of them have to

close because they cannot meet requirements. with the three visits that are arequired along with the new rirmts -- requirements for the clinics. you think about the woman working an hourly job. may be a mother of two. she's got to have travel costs, because there so many places in north carolina where this access isn't available, and they've got to make a long trip to get there. they've got to have the intense to cover. many women will not get through that process. it's operating as an effective been. that's why we have to stop it. >> you just need one republican in either house. let's talk about trisha cotham and what she said about abortion herself in 2015, i'll ait. >> the time sensitive medical

process procedures that i had to endure began immediately. and it was awful. and it didn't work. this decision was up to me my husband, my doctor, my good. it was not up to any of you in this chamber. >> that was trisha, democrat, talking about the abortion she got. she won her district as a democrat. as i said earlier, she was endorsed by emily's list. she voted for the twelve-week van, now that she's a republican, do you think she might be reconsidering, to be the one person that could stop the 12 week fan, especially what

she said in 2015 about her own abortion. >> so many people are facing these issues right now, and i would hope that she would resr., this legislation came out so fast, many legislatures themselves did not have a whole lot of time to comprehend how bad this legislation was. i hope she is reconsidering. she's certainly hearing from her constituents, and just as recently as this year, she's been strong and supported, codifying roe v. wade. so that is an important part of this. there are also three other reasons who also promised their constituents that they would protect women's reproductive care, and they are hearing from people in their district about, hey, do what you prominenced us to do, and make no mistake, this will hurt reproductive care if

you vote to override this veto, and these legislatures need to hear this, particularly doctors, we've had many of the major doctors groups in north carolina hopely oppose this legislation. you talk to any of them, they will tell you how concerned they are about this legislation. let's leave the medicine to the doctors and the decision to the women, and this legislation going to interfere in all of that. >> will you name those republican lawmakers, is one ted davis who was absent from the 12-week vote, and has said in the past, he thinks the 20 year sentence was the right now. representative bradford said essentially the same thing who is with charlotte. we know legislatures that have made promises to their constituents are going to have

the opportunity to keep those promises, and if they can uphold this veto, we can stop this bad legislation. >> have you spoken it any of them? >> we are working to make sure we do the most effective thing to fwet this done. they don't have to answer to me. they have to answer to their constituents. and we know for a fact that many constituents who are close to they believe, who we believe that he trusts are telling him how bad this legislation is, and we hope that he responds to that. >> what about in '24 for the presidential election, for state elections, if this goes through? >> whether it does or not, one thing we know is women's health care is under assault. we know that already republicans across the country who want to

turn back the clock 5 ears. your zip code should not determine your constitutional rights. unfortunately, with overturned, roe v. wade, this is where we are. you're getting extreme bands, confusing contradictory legislation, which creates hurd lts across the country. we're seeing this over and over again, and it shows us that elections matter. democratic governors matter. state legislatures matter. and i believe you're going to see a lot of people get engaged not only in north carolina but across the country, and making sure that they speak loutly because most of the people in this country do support women's reproductive freedoms. and these bills that are going across the country are wrong for

their states and people. south carolina, democratic and republican women are standing up to stop bad legislation, and nebraska, they are starting and stopping this. that's because many of them understand that what the maga republicans want to do when it comes to reproductive freedom does not in any way he feel the people of states. you have had the opportunity to go to the ballot box and vote on this issue have come through loud and clear on it. >> we had one of those south carolina lawmakers, republican lawmakers, one of those women who stood you have against that sok law and votes it down. let me ask you one more question. i know you're coming to terms with the second seattle. if one of the senate seattles comes open in north carolina, would you run for that? would you consider getting a lesser seat and running for the state house in '2024.

>> i've got a little less than 0 months to be governor. there's a lot to do. a lot of bad legislation to stopped. we just ekts tanded medicaid in north carolina, where we were able to get a compromise with republicans to move our state forward. i like public service. >> that's not a no. governor roy cooper, thank you very much, we appreciate it. coming up, he has gotten bipartisan craze, so why is the kentucky secretary of state in danger of losing his job, and what it could do to the 2024 election results. plus, president biden says he's optimistic about a deal. kevin mccarthy says the sides are far apart. where do the debt limit skukss stand. and title 42 ended. instead of the increase, the number of migrants trying to cross the border fell. what happened? we're back in 60 seconds. secons wanted. for free.

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on paper, it should have been a shoe in, kentucky's secretary of state is widely popular. he's gotten bipartisan praise for expanding voting access, but he might not make it ouch a primary for reelection tomorrow. joining me now is nbc news senior reporter jayne tim. why if this guy has bipartisan support, he has been praised for expanding election access in kentucky, why is he potentially not going to be able to get ouch his primary? >> michael adams is one of these unique characters. you remember back in 2021, we were covering all of these across the country efforts to roll back voting access, and kentucky was the one place it wasn't this super partisan fight. they all came together and added expanded access, and added election integrity proposals, things like banning ballot collection. they came together and found common ground on election administration. and now he's got two election deniers going after his job. people who may well take his job

in a low turnout primary, who say things like they've personally seen the election results being manipulated online, baseless allegations of voter fraud that just don't exist, and very well could be running 2024's elections. >> steve knipper, who adams beat last time, he's an election denier, and allen miracle who's a former state rep and tv exec. he hasn't gone as far as knipper. he has argued there's significant fraud, and they want to pull out of this multistate effort to detect voter fraud, something pushed by conspiracy theorists and conservative states. if one of these two men wins in a primary, it's kentucky, does that make it easier for a democrat to win in the general or does that basically ensure that one of these two men will be in charge of the secretary of state's office. >> statewide democrats have been trying. it opens an avenue for them to

win. if you put an election denier, we've seen across the country, democrats and republicans, and independents come out and are choosing not to put election deniers in administration offices, the riskiest place is primaries where the most fringe voters have the most say. >> and secretaries of state have control over elections in a lot of states. >> what was most stunning, how open adams was, look, to do my job right, i might lose my job and i'm okay with that. >> jayne timm, thank you very much. coming up next, what's causing a significant drop in migrants coming across the border since the lift of 42. staff members at jerry

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news out of virginia. congressman gerry connolly who says two staffers at his district office were attacked by a man with a baseball bat. he says the man showed up ask for him first. that man is now in custody. the staffers are in the hospital. we're told their injuries are not life threatening. joining me now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles, what more do we know?

>> reporter: we're learning quite a bit of new information about congressman's office in fairfax, virginia. the attacker came into the office with a metal bat, as you point out, he said he was looking for the congressman. he attacked the two staffers, and we learned that one of the staffers was actually an intern, and this was her first day on the job. she was hit by that metal bat in the side. both of the staffers did end up going to the hospital. they are both ultimately expected to be okay. after the attack on the two staffers, the man proceeded to run rough shot through the office, destroying computers, breaking glass in a conference room, and a number of other things. the man is described as a constituent of connolly's, someone who lives in fairfax, but it's not exactly clear if he had any exposure or connection

to their office prior to this event today. police are still investigating at this point. they have said in a press conference just a few minutes ago that from their early investigation, it appears that this attack was unprovoked. there was no sign or warning, it seemed to come out of the blue. this comes against the backdrop of threats against members of congress skyrocketing. capitol police say it's been as bad as it's been tracking this type of information. they have allocated additional funding for members of congress to harden their district offices and personal homes. some members have even taken money out of their campaign accounts or personal accounts to increase personal security when they're away from the capitol building. it's a trend we have seen happening more and more where

members are under direct threat for those angry for whatever it may be. >> or their families. it's a few months since paul pelosi was attacked in the middle of the night. the staffers, we're told not life threatening injuries, do we know more about their conditions? >> reporter: we knew they were taken to the hospital. we did learn that the intern who was one of the victims was hit in the side with that metal bat. the extent of the injuries, just how serious they are, and how long their recovery will be, remains an open question as police continue their investigation. >> ryan nobles, don't go anywhere, we're going to talk about the debt ceiling now, is the glass half full or empty? and if we're talking about a deal to avert a default, it depends on who you ask. >> i remain optimistic because i'm an optimist. i think there's a desire on their part as well as ours to reach an agreement, and i think we'll be able to do it. >> i think we're far apart. doesn't seem to be anything they want to do.

they want to look like they're in a meeting, but they're not talking anything serious. seems more like they want a default than a deal. >> joining me now is white house correspondent, monica alba, washington correspondent and author of political playbook, rachel bade and ryan nobles. glass half full very glass half empty. speaker mccarthy says he wants a deal this weekend. that's how soon he wants it so they can avert the early june deadline. given president biden's schedule, he leaves on wednesday, right, is that even possible? >> it doesn't seem realistic. and that is certainly because of what the speaker said. both sides continue to be quite far apart, and the president of the united states is literally going to be halfway around the globe starting on wednesday when he is expected to travel to japan for the g7 summit and later on to australia. we understand from the talks

that took place at the staff level all weekend long that there were a couple of areas of common ground that were identified. that is a little bit of progress, a week ago before the principles came together in the oval office, we were talking about how there was very little common ground that could even be talked about. at least now when it comes to permitting reform, funds that could be used for this, talking about spending cuts, which republicans have been wanting as part of the discussions, there's a little bit of horizon for the compromise in sight and reach. all the principles are supposed to come back tomorrow, and meet at the white house, which is what the president indicated earlier today. that will also be incredibly telling for what comes out of that. i think that's why you have the president and speaker giving their own takes. they were supposed to meet on friday, and that got moved to later tomorrow as well. there hadn't been enough gained

in those talks at that level. the president thinks he's going to be able to do this. june 1st quickly approaching, and the white house says there isn't room for error here. they're interested in getting something done. we don't know what that is yet. >> the white house said it was a clean race or nothing. is it now not quite that? is the president signaling that he's soft on some of these issues, that he might be amenable to compromise on some of what speaker mccarthy want, monica? >> yeah, and it was the president who said i don't want to negotiate on it at all, and here we are in the thick of negotiations. you can say that the white house has been invested in a solution, and so what they would tell you is it's not their number one priority here to appease republicans. they want to get something done, whatever that may be, and they're willing to work with them. at the end of the day, when a deal is reached, according to the white house, they'll say it was the president who brokered all it have. is he going to do it from so far

away from the critical summits or here with a little bit of a glimmer of hope. that's going to be tough to get hammered out. >> our colleagues were talking about how the public doesn't seem to be in crisis mode over this. washington feels like it's in crisis mode. the public isn't fussed. there was a poll quote from a focus group, excuse me, it was convened by the research firm, engagist, asked 11 voters if they were worried the government would blow through a deadline and default on its debt. not a single hand went up. the public is not, and obviously this is focussed on georgia. if the public generally is not fussed about this, ryan. does it affect the negotiations, does it affect the speed with which lawmakers feel like they need to move? >> i think it does.

in many ways, it's the congress who cried wolf. we have had many instances where they come right up to the very last minute in terms of their debt ceiling negotiations and they ultimately find a way through. of course back in 2011, they did find a way through, but it did lead to the credit rating of the united states federal government dropping, and we could find ourselves in that same situation again, but it does seem clear that the average american just does not seem to have the same sense of urgency that the treasury department certainly has and many of the financial analysts do when it comes to what the debt ceiling could lead to. now, that's the reality today. if for some reason there are not able to come up with the deal before the x date, the first week in june or whatever it turns out to be, and there is a default, and that leads to 401(k)s collapsing, interest rates skyrocketing, leads to all of these things that the analysts have been predicting

could happen, it becomes an issue that's front and center in american politics, and there will be blame that voters will put in the hands of any number of individuals. so that does seem to be the calculation here for both the white house and kevin mccarthy who has a higher risk tolerance as it relates to negotiations. right now, the average american isn't paying attention because they don't feel there's a reason to. >> this is a game of political chicken with some serious stuff on the line, potentially millions of jobs, a stock market crash, our rating around the world, our ability to borrow goes down. it has real consequences, so they say. thank you very much. border crossings are way down. border processing centers are still way over capacity. what's happening, and what's stopping border officials from keeping up?

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officials were expecting to see a record number of migrants trying to cross the border to claim asylum when title 42 ended last week. that did not happen. instead, the number of people looking to get in actually fell. a dhs official tells nbc news officials encountered 4,100

migrants on sunday. that is down from the 10,000 they had been seeing a day. joining me now is nbc news correspondent julia ainsley, why so few when they were preparing for so many? >> the first thing i want to say is everyone thinks it's the media that fell for this. let's look at dhs's internal planning, documents, i have been reviewing for a year since we thought this was going to lift. they planned for 18,000 migrants a day, and different scenarios, 12,000, 14,000 in a day. no one thought 4,000 in a day. it could be a multitude of things. there's been increased security and enforcement on the path to the united states. we know that mexico, guatemala, panama, colombia, all of their law enforcement have done more to interdict human smuggling and networks tried to arrest more as

they crossed between guatemala and mexico. that could mean the numbers coming to our border are fewer than the ones who want to get here, trying to kind of take a bite out of that demand there, and those people might not be able to reach the u.s. we also know that historically when a policy changes, there's oftentimes and could be through misinformation, there's an understanding, soon you won't be able to. it could be that smugglers said these policies are about to change. title 42 will lift. they're putting in place other more restrictive policies, which they are, although they have been sued in court over these. could be simply that people thought, at least let's cross under the policy we know rather than the policy we don't. but i think right now what i'm hearing from dhs is they keep saying it's still early. they think that perhaps the numbers could rise, perhaps there are people who are waiting to see how this plays out. and then maybe next week, they could try their luck oncoming to the united states. but right now, yeah, i think a lot of people are -- including

myself, are pretty shocked by these numbers. >> what's stopping the border processing centers from keeping up? >> well, it takes longer now. under title 42, you didn't have to hear somebody's claim, didn't have to know their story, their documents, see if they might qualify. a lot of people could be sent back into mexico. now it takes a little longer, and remember we had a huge surge before title 42. so there could be still be some people in border processing centers who still haven't been processed. what i'm told is they are still releasing migrants into the united states, with court dates, told to report to court at a date. sometimes it can be years into the future, but they are still at or over capacity. and a lot of migrant processing centers. we could still see more migrants released and more migrants who were going to cities like new york, chicago, denver, places that already say they're overwhelmed by the migrants, especially because we know that

there was a sharp surge before friday. >> julia ainsley, thank you very much. coming up in just areaking washington, the durham report is out. we have all the details of what's inside this sweeping 300-page report that was just made public a moment ago. do not go anywhere. at was just made public a moment ago do not go anywhere it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels and contains high quality protein to help manage hunger and support muscle health. try boost® today. (seth) hi, cecily. i just switched my whole family to verizon. (cecily) oh, it's america's most reliable 5g network. (seth) and it's only $35 a line. (vo) save big during our spring savings event, and get the disney bundle with disney+, hulu, and espn+ included. all for just $35 a line. verizon your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

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origins and conduct into investigations over whether former president donald trump's 2016 campaign colluded with russia. he lost the only two prosecutions that he brought to court, but now his report, which, again, was just released a moment ago appears to be an appeal to the court of public opinion. joining me is nbc news correspondent, ken dilanian, our justice correspondent and legal analyst barbara mcquade. ken, this was just released a moment ago. it was highly anticipated. what did we learn from it? >> we're still trying to determine exactly what's new in here, katy, as we go through this 300-page exhaustive report, but the argument that john durham is making here is an argument he has made before which is essentially that he doesn't believe the fbi was fully justified in opening that counter intelligence investigation code named cross fire hurricane back in 2016 into the trump campaign.

he says the fbi acted hastily and on uncorroborated, raw information. there was over information about the hillary clinton campaign, involving a foreign government that wanted to try to influence them that the fbi didn't react to in similar ways. one of the most important things to know about this report is that this is directly contradicted by a 2019 report by the justice department's inspector general, which also looked into all of these events and interviewed a lot of these people, and concluded that the fbi was justified in opening that investigation. and also that those decisions were free of any political bias. famously, some of the fbi agents, in particular, peter strzok had expressed a lot of bias and hatred and animus against donald trump in texts. he was one of a group of people who made the decision to open this investigation. it was based on a trump campaign aide, george papadopoulos, telling an australian diplomat that the russians had gone to the trump campaign, and said

they could leak information damaging to hillary clinton that would be helpful to the trump campaign. as our viewers know, at the end of the road, the robert mueller investigation issued a report and found no evidence or they couldn't establish coordination, formal coordination between the trump campaign and russia, but found dozens and dozens of troubling contacts between trump campaign officials and russian officials, and a senate intelligence committee report, a bipartisan report went further and said that poses counter intelligence risks to the united states. john durham has come and investigated for four years. he's not charging any fbi officials with crimes but saying in a report he believes the fbi acted inappropriately and was gullible and accepted information it should not have. >> that's an admirable summary of everything that's happened over the past eight years or so, ken, but just to go back to straighten it all out because even i who have reported this, followed it as closely as i did, it gets confusing.

cross fire hurricane, that was the initial investigation, the opening of the investigation into donald trump's 2016 campaign, and just a reminder, it's because of that campaign aide, that low level guy, george papadopoulos who said something to an australian diplomat, and that got passed along. there was also the steele dossier, walk us through what the fbi had, what the doj watchdog found that the fbi had in opening the investigation into trump's campaign? >> the steele dossier is a sore point among durham and the lot of other people. the fbi was unable to corroborate any of it. it was essentially a bonus document. it was used by the fbi to justify the foreign intelligence surveillance warrant against carter page, and that was found both by the inspector general and john durham to be wildly inappropriate. in fact, the only criminal conviction john durham got was against an fbi lawyer who

admitted to falsifying information in a carter page fisa warrant and he got probation, and his law license was suspended for a year. the sort of dossier is found to be sort of a -- not a great moment for the fbi as part of all of this, but, you know, one piece of evidence that they had as you know very well that was weighing on the mind of senior fbi officials was that infamous comment that donald trump made to you where he said russia, if you're listening, i hope you can find the 30,000 e-mails on hillary clinton's missing server, whatever it was, appealing to the russian government. he says he was joking but it gave pause to a lot of people and made clear that donald trump was prepared to accept help from russia and factored into the decision by the fbi to open opet counter -- >> on the note of joke i asked him, after he said that, does it not give you pause to ask a foreign government to get involved, he said no, it does not. he did not say he was joking, he said he was serious and there was that move that was later

revealed in the -- in the mueller indictment i believe that russians did start hacking or trying to hack into hillary clinton's e-mails. the fbi has released a statement and a letter from the fbi general counsel to mr. durham and says attributable to the fbi the conduct in 2016 and 2017 that special counsel durham examined was the ready that current fbi leadership already implemented dozens of corrective actions which have been in place for some time. had those reforms been in place in 2016 the missteps identified in the report could have been prevented. this report reinforces the importance of insure the fbi continues to do its work with the rigor, objectivity and professionalism the american people deserve and rightly expect. all right. let's talk about the legal aspects of it and remind us, john durham brought a couple

cases and didn't get a prosecution in either one. >> he brought two cases, one ken mentioned the kevin clinesmith case, there was a guilty plea in that case for falsifying a document used for the fisa case, but a case there was a lawyer against michael sussmann false statements to the fbi acquitted at trial and another one against a defendant against danchenko found not guilty in a case alleging that he was acting as an agent of a foreign government. there's not a lot of steak for the sizzle here. the good news is that it's over, it's done. this is the final report and there's nothing new here. i think that what might be concerning is if there was some new piece of information that was disturbing unknown before, but this is a rehash of all the things that were included in the inspector general's report as the fbi says, have been remedied and is simply n my view, a disagreement of opinion. the inspector general said there

was adequate predication for this. i've seen cases opened for far less, and it wasn't based on the steele dossier the case was opened, it was based on the statements by george papadopolous they had stolen e-mails from the democratic national committee and hillary clinton. if the fbi had not investigating that i would have said shame on them. it was not an investigation in the trump campaign as to russia for its efforts to interfere with u.s. elections and this is an ugly chapter i'm glad to see closed and durham can ride off into the sunset and be done. >> there were a number of russian nationals indicted by the doj. all right. let's talk about the politics of this. joining me now is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. you can't separate this out from politics as donald trump is running again and running on this witch hunt against him. used that for years and years now. how do you expect to hear him

talk about this on the campaign snail i wonder, do you think it resonates not with his base, we know it does, but anyone outside his base. >> this is the report he was waiting for, waiting for prosecutions, bill barr appointed durham as the special counsel, and this was going to be his opportunity to reveal the deep state. well, the special counsel has done his work and this is the extent of what he was able to reveal. for donald trump, this completely undercuts his efforts to try to manipulate the electorate. every single time whether it be from manhattan district attorney's effort to e. jean carroll's trial against him, russia, russia, russia, they found nothing. that's not true. they found multiple individuals indicted them, prosecuted them from roger stone, paul manafort, those were financial tax fraud schemes, but also the 12 russian nationals you mentioned. they did, in fact, hack in to dnc e-mails and john podesta's

e-mails. russia russia russia was nothing. he said that at the news conference he did urge them to find the e-mails and so the issue for him is that right now he doesn't have anybody to hold up as the witness or as the evidence that there was some grand scheme within the department of justice and the fbi to undermine him and that is what the conclusion of this is and while he was in the white house, he had four years to prove that active effort to undermine him, and he struggled here. >> do you hear when talking to people outside of the rallies maybe or, you know, cab drivers or people on planes, the people you talk to that aren't the die hards that show up to the rallies, what are you hearing about donald trump and his message to the american public and his reason for asking them to re-elect him? >> i mean, look, this is part of why he called in to michael flynn this weekend to -- hosting

a christian nationalist, conspiracy theory conference in florida. michael flynn was prosecuted and pled guilty as part of the mueller probe. he lied to investigators, to the fbi, about his contacts with russian officials, including the russian ambassador during the transition period. he was about to be sentenced and instead, donald trump pardoned him after the 2020 election. when i hear from folks, they view donald trump as the person who is going to take that fight to the politicized justice department. they look at michael flynn as one of those justice warriors who was wrongly prosecuted despite the fact that he pled guilty. talking about eight years of investigations you said it's confusing, it is hard, ultimately what were the contacts between the trump campaign and russia? it gets buried really down to donald trump making the case of russia, russia, russia and what he is going to do is going to turn to those who have been loyal to him. one of those individuals is

michael flynn who is going to make the message that he has been unfairly target sfoods let's ask former chief communications adviser for paul ryan and analyst brendan buck, how do you see this landing politically? >> like so much of our politics it's choose your own adventure. i understand what vaughn said but we have to agree that donald trump is going to paint his own picture here and i think most people don't appreciate how much is engrained in the psyche of a lot of republican voters that the fbi was out to get donald trump and i think there is going to be more evidence here for donald trump to make that claim again. it is, to the extent a lot of that is nonsensical when there are things that you saw that the special counsel or the i.g. said the fbi made error, that's all donald trump needs to continue to play victim here. it's built in to the way he is.

he's going to try to take advantage of this because it works because it's core to who he is and look, he has a lot of people out there who are going to be ready to amplify this. jim jordan, the chairman of the house judiciary committee has said that he's invited durham in for a hearing next week where you can imagine they're going to try to make this argument as many ways as they can that whether it was biased or not there was a conspiracy to hurt donald trump and all that does is lift him up again. seems no matter how many times what should be news for donald trump, he finds ways to make the best out of it. i imagine he and his allies will try to do that. >> the department of justice doesn't want to be a part of politics. there's a political appointee at the top. the fbi don't want to be seen as political actors and in the past eight years they have been heavily involved in politics, whether they want to be or not. how does the department of justice feel about trying to

extricate itself from the current moment we're living in? >> i think that was reflected in the statement that you read from chris wray the fbi director who really does want to distance himself from the decisions made by his predecessor james comey and andrew mccabe the deputy director at the time and sending the message and has been in his testimony before congress, that was the old regime. this couldn't happen again the same way. particularly around the rules about getting these kinds of surveillance warrants, but also, the treatment of presidential campaigns. there's an acknowledgement among some inside the doj there should be a higher bar because of the impact of the revelations of that investigation. and there's an awareness however just fids this investigation was and convictions on ancillary matters the question it was trying to answer, it didn't come up with the answer that a lot of people thought was there, which was didn't find trump coordination, formal

coordination, with russia and put the country through a lot. the justice department really wants to distance itself from that and make sure that doesn't happen again. >> is that chris wray saying he would not have opened the investigation? we only have a couple seconds left. is that how you read it? >> i wouldn't say that. he thinks there were steps not taken there should have been more care taken and use of things like the steele dossier that should never have happened. >> thank you very much. we're going to be hearing about this again, no doubt. that's it for me today, though. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. for years now, the durham probe has loomed large on the right, part delusional fantasy, part hobby horse for the right, a