tonight, so glad for glaad. , the gay and lesbian alliance against defamation is the world's largest lgbtq+ media advocacy organization. what does that mean? they ensure important stories from their community are seen and heard. on saturday night, the show the 11th hour is grateful to have been honored to receive an award for glaad for x down doing live journalism -- it's a day in october when americans were purple to show support for lgbtq youth and took a stand against bullying. we highlighted some troubling statistics about why this issue was so important in an effort to make sure these young people know they are not alone. other outstanding journalism awards went to the following, the scripts news documentary series in real life for their segment on hiv in the deep south. abc news four they're soul of the nation's special, pride to be seen.

time magazine for their article on pediatricians who serve trans youth facing increasing harassment. in the daily beast article, alabama trying to raise the legal driving age for trans people to 19. president and ceo glad sarah kate ellis took some time to address the increase in laws against the community. watch this. >> there is one thing that extremist politicians and activists can never ban, and that is our joy. we are not going to let them -- anyone tell our stories or villainize who we are. when the truth is, everyone deserves to live a life happily ever after. yes, so raise your voices -- [applause] so raise your voices, take action with glaad, get loud, and stay proud. >> and we are loud and proud to

have the glaad awards take us off the air tonight. on that note, i wish a very good night. from all our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, state thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. of tomorrow >> thanks for being with us tonight, it's good to have you here. a bit of a sigh of relief within just the past hour as we got positive news about the two congressional staffers who were attacked in virginia today. members of congress of course have their main offices in the capital in washington, d.c.. but of course, they have offices in their districts back home. this attack today happened at the district office for democratic congressman virginia -- the democratic virginia congressman who you see here. it's his district office in fairfax, virginia. it's northern virginia, outside d.c.. the congressman himself was not in the office. he was out apparently add a

ribbon cutting for local food bank. but a man showed up at the office. he was wielding a metal bat. he asked to see the congressman who wasn't there. and then he reportedly just started swinging. congressman condyles chief of staff tells nbc news tonight that the man smashed computers in the office and smashed glass with the bat. he then attacked two staffers. one senior staffer to the congressman. the man reportedly hit in the head with this metal baseball bat. and then one young staffer, an intern who is apparently on her first day on the job, he hit her with a metal bat in her side. both of the staffers were hospitalized. obviously, this is terrible news in every possible way. the only positively breaking news on this is that we've been told again that both of these staffers, the senior staffer hit in the head with the bat, the intern who was hit as well. although each of them was hospitalized after the attack tonight, they have both been

released from the hospital. neither of them has injuries that is believed to be life-threatening. thank god. police have the alleged assailant in custody. he's a 49-year-old man was reportedly from the congressman's district. in northern virginia. police say he's being charged with felony aggravated malicious wounding. they're not saying anything about his potential motives at this time, or anything even to the extent to which he had them. the man is, i should tell you on record, as having last year filed a lawsuit against the cia, alleging that the cia was somehow torturing him from the fourth dimension. the new york times reports it's a handwritten lawsuit. the man was representing himself as his own lawyer in this case. so read into that what you will, there is that. republican house speaker kevin mccarthy says he reached out to congressman connally after hearing about the attack, which is a good thing for him to have done. the democratic leader of the

house, quite key jeffries, is calling for better protection for the staff. -- but again, the late breaking news here, both of the staffers attacked with a baseball bat, and congressman district office, both of them -- were continuing to follow that tonight. we're gonna let you more on that as we learn more. second thing we are keeping an eye on tonight is the reaction, particularly the reaction on the political right to the long awaited durham report. what? the long-awaited what? well the reason we're watching for the right and their reaction to this is because the durham report is only really long awaited by them. and they really, really have been awaiting this report. >> a source close to special counsel john durham's probe tells fox news things have, quote, accelerated. >> i look forward to bill durham's report.

that's the one i look forward to. >> did you think by now that there would have been more to come out of the durham investigation? >> what happened to durham? where is durham? by the way, where is durham? what happened? where izzy? he disappeared. >> we do not yet know what the remainder of john durham's findings are. >> actually now we finally do. no boy, they have been excited about this for a long time. literally four years, former president trump and his allies have been invoking the name john durham for sometimes bull durham as the man who would save them and smite all of trump's enemies. for years, they have been heralding the great revelations john durham would soon reveal about trump's political opponents and the deep state and all their evil ways when that didn't seem to be happening, trump and his allies started pounding their chests and yelling at the clouds about why durham hadn't acted yet,

why he hadn't yet smote all of trump's enemies. why, you know, there are democrats who are not yet at guantánamo! durable do it all! john durham was appointed by trump attorney bill barr. his assignment from bill barr was to prove that when russia launched its operation to intervene in the u.s. presidential election in 2016 to try to help trump win, durham was supposed to prove in this investigation that the fbi was wrong. do you have investigated whether the trump campaign itself was connected to what russia was doing. for four long years, john durham supposedly bombshell findings were always tantalizingly close. the evidence was gonna come any day. it's really never worked out the way they hoped. and some total, what john durham got out of his investigation was one guilty plea out of an fbi lawyer, and

fbi employee who admitted he made a misrepresentation in the single email. it should also be noted though that lawyers screwed up was discovered not by john durham but by an entirely different investigation that had nothing to do with john durham. nevertheless, that fbi employee did plead guilty to making a misrepresentation in a single email, and his punishment was that he had to do some hours of community service. but that was kind of it. last year, john durham finally did bring to criminal cases to court, stemming from his investigation. he lost both of those cases in very quick acquittals. one of those two cases, the former one of the jury actually came out of the courtroom after the case and told reporters outside that the trial had not been worth the effort. she said, quote, i think we could've center time more wisely. after the second not guilty verdict, this was the ap's headline. quote, trump's claim of crime of the century fizzles in three

year probe. of the centurybut that was okays only year three. and the smoking gun was going to be in durham's report which we now know will come out in europe for. the report was still coming. john durham's failed cases in court, they're all just part of the deep state conspiracy. when you finally put the report out, all would be revealed. today, at long last, we have the report. here's the ap's headline today. quote, prosecutor and's probe of fbi trump in russia investigation with harsh criticism, but no new charges. both the report monday from special counsel don durham represents the long awaited culmination of an investigation that trump and his allies had claimed would expose massive wrongdoing by law enforcement and intelligence officials. instead, durham's investigation delivered an underwhelming result. nearly four years, more than $6 million in taxpayer funds, and today's report, now that we've

got it, 300 plus pages, it's just a rehash of stuff we already knew. with durham criticizing the fbi for launching that investigation, but presenting no new evidence that they actually did anything wrong. and so, it is worth keeping an eye on the reaction to this report today on the right. because who knows how they're gonna react. they do seem kind of trapped in this high, pedram, hype, let down cycle. just a few days, ago the chairman of the oversight committee, remember, he led this conference about the bombshell evidence that he had against president biden. how did that go? this was the headline in the new york times about that press conference, quote, house republican report finds no evidence of wrongdoing by president biden. after months of investigation and many public executions of corruption against mr. biden and his family, the first report of the premier house republican inquiry into such matters showed no proof of such

misconduct. but that's okay, that's okay, there's still more to come. this weekend, the same chairman, the house oversight committee chairman said his investigation still has more evidence. okay, there might not have been anything in the report last, week but there's more. he said he has an informant on all of biden's corruption. only he admitted to fox news this weekend he has temporarily misplaced the informant. he cannot find him anymore. seems possible he might have left him on top of the car when he pulled out of the driveway. he just disappeared! it's gonna be here somewhere. can find the man anywhere. for the durham report though, this really is it today after all those years and all those millions of dollars, no charges against anybody else, no evidence turned out revealed. that's just it. so that has to be a big disappointment because they really thought this was going to be the end of all of their enemies and the triumph of their eternal rain. so we are keeping an eye on how

republican reaction to that is going to be. watching all of that tonight. but here's where we really want to be tonight. as you know last, week a jury new york found former president donald trump liable for both battery, sexual abuse of e. jean carroll, as well as defamation. now in doing so, the story agreed with miss caroline her allegation that donald trump did sexually assault her. and then he claimed he shush -- when you called her a liar. the jury said in effect, eugene carroll is not a liar. and trump must pay her for falsely saying that she was. the jury ruled that he must pay $5 million in damages. $2 million for the battery charge for the assault, and additional $3 million of for the defamation for lying about her. and all that is a clear through line, right? do a bad thing, you get sued

for doing that. thing we found liable. for doing the bad thing. you pay a fine for having paid bad thing. but are those damages, those millions of dollars donald trump has to pay now, it's not supposed to be punishment for what the jury says he did? or is it also supposed to be deterrence? is it also supposed to do to dissuade him from ever doing those things again? i asked her friend. i asked because that's a very live question. because if the multi million dollars damages payment -- if that's supposed to dissuade him from ever lying again about e. jean carroll, it doesn't seem to be working. the verdict in the e. jean carroll case came down thursday afternoon, barely 24 hours later, literally the next calendar day, donald trump went on cnn news network and he repeated the same lies about miss carroll.

the -- and i'm not being flippant, i'm not exaggerating. he repeated the exact same things almost verbatim. look at, this on the left side of your screen here, that's exactly what donald trump said last year. quote, i don't know this woman, i have no idea who she is. this is part of the statement that trump said about miss jean carroll that's part of the defamation. this is -- millions of dollars. on tuesday. the death the jury's verdict, look at what he said on tv. this woman, i don't know her. i never met her. i have no idea who she is. and that wasn't the only incidents. look at this, one in 2022, trump says -- it's a hoax and ally. this e. jean carroll's not telling the truth. again, it was that statement saying miss carroll made up her story. her story is fake. that's what was deemed by a

jury to be defamation on tuesday. that's what cost trump millions of dollars on tuesday. and yet, furious the day after the verdict. quote, this is a big story. made-up story. this is a hoax. a jury deemed the statements on the left side of your screen where actionable defamation. they ruled that trump would be required to pay millions of dollars for making the statements. ions oand then he turned aroundd repeated those same statements in public on national television the day after the jury's verdict. miss carroll has responded to the new statements about her from trump, she called them stupid, discussing, bile, fell, she said that that language from him, quote, moons people. but could it also be actionable defamation? a jury's already ruled that those kinds of lies about e. jean carroll relies. for which he must pay millions

of dollars. what a jury say the same thing about the latest round of him again? miss carroll's lawyer, said she and her client are weighing whether or not to bring another defamation suit against donald trump. this time for the new iterations he made these lies on television in the media week of the verdict. for the first time since he was elected president, e. jean carroll and her lawyer, robbie kaplan, have proved in court of law that trump cannot tell lies with impunity. they have done that for the country. they're not the first to try but they're the first to succeed. to hold trump accountable by the american judicial system. first time anybody has been able to do that since he was elected president. they've already done that. now have to decide what to do next. joining us now for the interview as e. jean carroll and her lawyer, roberta kaplan. it's very nice to have you here. >> great to be here. >> i'm sorry for having --

>> i wanna stand up and give you a standing ovation. i had realized that nobody had done this, that were the first. i just realized when you said. it -- >> you did it. we as a country -- not just that politicians tell lies. we are -- to the specific thing in which he lies even and checkable things and he lies and was that are hurtful designed to hurt people's lives. and they're no consequences for it all, it does his benefit. cruelty makes them seem stronger, more macho. it -- adore him all the more. you are the first people to have push against that so that you have to be held accountable for what you said. >> i was going to ask you how that felt. but you're only realizing that

for the first time. now >> when the verdict came, the verdict came. i think we ascended to the ceiling. and it was the happiest day of my life. and on top of having to have this day in our lives, was added -- we were so proud to be in america and see democracy actually work. to put that on top of our happiness and robbie was screaming -- you see her -- just squeezed it so hard. it was really -- i could feel it in my very bones, right down to my core puzzles. and they still have a feeling. when you went through it again, i was again thrilled. >> let me ask you the question deposited there about -- i mean, you did force

accountability. and the defamation, the calling you a liar, the exact same things the jury held him liable for the day before he did again the next day on national television. is that just the way it has to be? do you think that it could potentially be actionable if you file another suit? will it work the same way? >> it's definitely actionable. and the cruelty will become less healthy. he won't get away with it another time. it's unprecedented for a person to have been held liable in defamation to keep doing a defamation. so they're not a lot of cases that you can look to for a playbook about how to do it. but suffice to, save a lot of lawyers who are very busy looking into this and we are waiting all of our options. >> you also have another live case. from the time when he was president and he was stating the same untrue things about him defaming you in the same way. that case is still working its way through the courts.

what are your expectations in terms of what's gonna happen there? >> you can see the results of the case very soon. >> what's very soon? >> i don't know how late the people work -- 2 to 3 days. max >> we have a good decision from a decent court of appeals essential-y affirming judge kaplan that when trump said what he said about e. jean in 2019, he was not acting as president. we're quite confident that that will be affirmed and will be able to move forward with damages. and we don't need to finding liability because we already have it. and we'll be able to find damages. they are the defamation that is much higher. that's the first statement he made and that's what really destroyed her reputation as a vice columnist and all the people who trusted turn looked up to. her >> and times of the timing, you were let go from al. >> yes. it was hard. >> you think it was related to

his -- >> definitely related. >> let me ask you, e. jean, in terms of what you went through. there are cameras in the courtroom, but the whole country was following this word by word. we have the transcript, and we know how your cross-examination particularly went. i think anybody with a drop of empathy knows that that must have been very painful. but you must have known it was going to be painful in the first instance when he set out to try to get your day in court here. >> and -- harder than you thought it would be. or were you prepared for how it would go the number expected? how did it match up with your expectations and how did you prepare? >> i was ignorant. i never -- i had never even been in a courtroom. but robbie kaplan who i heard -- someone you might know said, when the history of this era is written, there will be lots of chapters about robbie kaplan.

she and this brilliant team of lawyers had miso prepared. had me unbelievably prepared. i went in because i was so ignorant, confident. it was like getting hit by board when mr. tacopina did my cross-examination. but i wasn't doing it for myself. i was doing it for the women in the country. and i -- i got very little sleep. [inaudible] every day was exciting. it's an incredible feeling to feel the waves across the country behind us. and at the end when i told what happened, i was heard, i was heard in federal court.

i was heard in federal court. in front of a jury of my peers. they weigh the evidence, and the truth was established. the system works. it's amazing how this process worked after two weeks. it was astounded. that it actually worked. and the reason worked his, robbie kaplan. it helps to have a good lawyer to make this work. ve a goo>> you had a jury of nix men, three women on the jury. once things are in the hands of the jury, you never know what each individual's juror is bringing to those deliberations, but their hang-ups or experiences, or prejudices might be despite the process is designed for you to have a fair jury. this is a -- shock to the former president. the prospect of moore county billet-y to come appears to be very unsettling to him. i think it's creating a wave against the country to make you

feel like you're speaking for many people and not just for yourself. but you have sued this former president a lot. and you've been the point of the spear for some of the legal accountability that he seems least able to handle. and i wonder how that's changed your life. >> it isn't like me very much. and he's kind of obsessed with the fact that my firm and other lawyers that i work with have cases against him. in terms of my life, it's the same job whether i'm suing trump, and with eugene, or we are suing the nazi's or someone else, the job is the same. it's to litigate the facts, to martial the evidence, to convince a jury as we did in both cases, and here we had the best possible plaintiffs, the best possible client to tell her story. to speak or truth. and as we said on our team, just let e. jean be e. jean. and she was. the jury left. or as they should. >> let me ask as a matter of law and advocacy here, this

case is got me thinking about other people who have -- or may have defamation claims against the former president. people like the georgia election workers, ruby freeman and shane moss. they have sued a few conservative media outlets and rudy giuliani for defamation. they haven't sued the president himself. but they have the same kind of case to be able to make against him. do you think the success of this case doesn't just buie people who feel like, finally accountability, finally truth the mail to the wall and not just slide down? but doesn't it change the political landscape for other civil cases against trump? >> i think it does because he's actually a very good defamation defendant. if you're planning to sue for defamation. because he lies all the time. he lies as a matter of habit. he lies about big things, he's lies about small things. and in this case were able to show how it was not just about

fake, news a, hoax on a made-up story, but even when i showed him the famous photo raheem is stuck e. jean for marla maples, when he realized he made the mistake, he said the photo was blurry. it wasn't very. but it was classic donald trump. i think the jury really heard that. they really absorbed it, that's why we got a verdict in two and a half hours. >> this is the reason this was a bigger -- story to put it in these terms, because i feel like i'm a little casting a movie about it or something, but you saying that it's a disadvantage that he lies so much, i feel like for some i've heard that in seven years. the ability to lie without shame and without any sort of tell, without any sort of remorse about it whatsoever, and about even the most important things has always seemed like a political superpower to him. you've turned it into the opposite. by virtue of the court system. >> he's revived defamation law. donald trump single-handedly -- >> e. jean, let me just ask you one last question here.

i was struck by what you said about trump's latest comments on cnn and i know you didn't watch them, live which somehow gives me great comfort. but you set his words wound people. he used the plural. they're not that it wounds, me or a way to wound women. you're talking about -- i'm struck by your use of the word people, there. plural. what did you mean by that? >> remember -- a scene clips of the cnn top. when he came on stage, right after our enormous victory and he made truths about sexual assault, i couldn't believe the pain he was causing to thousands of people by joking about sexual assault. and that's how he hurts people. that's how he hurts people. and -- to shut him up.

>> eugene carroll, caplan, good to see you. nice to see you. much more ahead tonight. stay with us. night. stay with us you've changed. so have we. that's why new dove body wash now has 24-hour renewing micro moisture for continuous care. new dove body wash. change is beautiful.

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of north carolina did something that governors have to do from time to time. he vetoed a bill. but he did not do it in the normal way. he did it like this. >> are you guys ready for a veto? >> all right, then you heard them. you heard them. governor cooper, let's do this thing.

>> hello north carolina! you know these rallies are happening all over the state? when women's health is on the line, i will never back down. >> standing before a huge cheering crowd on saturday, that's north carolina's democratic governor cooper vetoing the new abortion pen. this is passed in the republican legislature north carolina, he held a veto rally, literally, are you ready for a veto? let's do this thing? and then he goes up there, high fives everybody. and vetoed the bill, right there in front of a rally as lots of simultaneous rallies will have celebrated the veto all over the state.

that was saturday. today, a bunch of north carolina businesses held their own rally against the abortion ban and against the republican legislature targeting lgbtq people as well. so -- don't ban equality in north carolina letter. a letter of state legislature. quote, restricting access to comprehensive reproductive, care including abortion, threatens the health, independents, and it can pick stability up for workers and customers. the governor of north carolina is a democrat, though that just later's control by republicans. republicans in fact have a supermajority in the north carolina house and the north carolina senate. because they've got that super majority, with that term in fact means is that technically, if all republicans are together, they have enough votes to override the veto. which they say they're gonna try to do as soon as tomorrow. overriding governor cooper's veto would put the abortion ban

in place in north carolina. but if they're gone to do that, if they're gonna override this veto, they cannot lose a single vote. they cannot lose run republican in the senate, nor can they lose run republican in the house. so, we will see tomorrow. and on the other, hand this is political math, political math right down to the margin. on the other hand, this is a fundamental case involving freedom and health care for the people of north carolina. we will see what happens there in north carolina tomorrow. but in the bigger picture, this of course was all set in motion, this was all set in motion, by the monumental ruling last year in the supreme court overturning roe v. wade. this is a ruling that has profoundly changed american lives. and profoundly changed american politics. but in, type in terms of how the ruling came down, it's the kind of ruling that has actually become more rare in

recent years, along with everything else that -- since 2017, the supreme court has started issuing its rulings differently. has started issuing fewer of what we think of traditional rulings even on controversial issues like that one. they've instead shifted to something you might have heard of but probably didn't understand, called the shadow docket. well, now it's time for those of us who aren't lawyers to understand what lawyers are talking about when they tell us that we should be worried about the shuttle docket. here with us tonight, we have the attorney and legal scholar who, as literally written the book about how the supreme court is getting its work done these days through the shadow docket. but that change in practice means for us as a country. it is really, really important. that story is here next, stay with us. ext, sta with us. it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪

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claims and came to a rational and binding, explicable conclusion about them based on the facts. and with this particular former president feels like that never happened so it feels important related to him. but i think the writer and slate got it right when she put it this way. she wanted to have her date in court, to hold her accountable. by setting the record in saying that he did what she said he did. she saw the way that he skated around the allegations of sexual assault, degraded his accuser, she was not deterred, but determined to rest one set of truths from his mountain of lies. with an affirmation of a jury of her peers, she, did now after the jury verdict goes forward it's no longer just a jury it is processed in the ways that our society has agreed upon. to -- and it has been deemed credible. the system and our society has

developed, and agreed upon to adjudicate claims of wrongdoing. that is it. putting allegations that system, having them formally adjudicated to through a fair process that we all understand. it feels unprecedented when it comes to trump. but it is also good reminder that the judicial system really matters almost spiritually to us as a country. in a way that almost nothing else does. when it comes to us fighting on the basis of the facts. when it comes to us as a country having paid arguments in the fairway. having the courts judge things, using a process that we can all see. acting in ways that they have to explain, the court is establishing clarity about what is okay, and what is not okay under the law. and what is testable, and by, day and public facing. it is important for a case like e. jean carroll, but important for us as a country. and there is a good case to be made that the supreme court has

screwed that up right now. in a way that lawyers have been talking about that for a while. but a lot of us have to learn about that because it is bad. and it is not going to get better on its own. when we think of the supreme court we all have the same thing in mind. in terms of the way that they work. they decide on a case, they have moral arguments. they deliberated for months, and then they hand down their written ruling. and the ruling is a long, written explanation of why they are ruling the way they are. there are often written the sense from others, concurrence is from others. and everyone has to abide by the ruling, but it's a ruling that explains themself. there is a lot of explanation for why the ruling is the way it is. and that's how it works. that's how we do think about the court doing its work. except no, that process that i described is less and less of what the supreme court now does in life. they are now taking up fewer cases that way than they have since the civil war. instead, they are doing things a different way. a way that they do not like to talk about, and the way that they do not like to be

criticized for. it used to be a rarely used system in which the supreme court would take up cases as emergencies, and because they were emergencies they would have to move fast. there was no time for moral arguments, no time for a full briefing from the two sides. the justices would take up this thing on an emergency basis, decide however they want to decide. it and then just announced their ruling in a barebones way. often, the ruling would be anonymous. you would never know who did it. it would be unsigned. often, it offers no explanation at all for why the ruling is the way it is. it is just a thumbs, up or thumbs down, no discussion. this is something that used to be kept in reserve for special cases. for time sensitive emergencies. almost no time for the courts normal process. now they are using that for everything. for big cases, four cases that aren't emergencies at all, for some of the most controversial, divisive, political issues that come before them. it's like abortion rights, and voting rights. issues that were like, frankly, if the court acts in a really controversial way. they are risking the possibility that some of the

country might not want to abide by the ruling. because, a significant portion of the country things the court is bs. so why should they follow its ruling? the university of texas law argues in his new book the shadow docket, as courts become the battlefield for voter suppression laws, election integrity disputes, perhaps even the legitimacy future election results. democracy itself may depend upon a supreme court lively considered to be legitimate. if the court's legitimacy turns on the court's ability to explain itself, that the rise of the shadow docket is enough to that understanding. the people can hardly be expected to acquiesce the decisions that they can't possibly be expected to understand. they may say that the court is not itself even bothering to explain. joining us now is the university of texas law -- author of the new book, the shadow docket, how the supreme courts stealth rulings to a mass power and undermined the

republic. professor thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> what did i say raw? >> nothing. no. i think that the reality is that the last five or six years, we have seen the supreme court use what are rare orders. orders that we rarely saw in the 1990s in the context, that were often important to the state or prisoner but did not have broader implications on statewide policies. >> and you would also understand why they would be so time sensitive, they have to go to the execution. >> -- exactly, versus 2016 and 17 now it's a big policy dispute. whether it's trump immigration policies, or state measures, or biden's decision of state policies, or student loan program. or vaccination methods, the supreme court is handling so many of these through this emergency application. and what is really i think, most hard to see and truly put them altogether. is that the neutral, legal principles that people might try to say explain these

rulings. fall apart when you look at the whole data set. fall apart when you compare trump rulings to biden rowlands. when you compare how they treat covid measures and blue, states versus red states. so it's not the core can't have an emergency power. we needed to, when it's an execution process, or otherwise. it's that we've normalized the emergency. and we've normalized the procedures for emergency which are very short, swift procedures. and even what than that, the justices themselves are now insisting that some of these unsigned, unexplained rulings are precedents. chastising lower courts to having the temerity to not follow the unsigned unexplained decision. >> that was some of the. i should say it's important for them to have an emergency process or some kind. but that was one of the things that made it not such a big deal. that there was less process, less certainty and visibility and machinations of the courts around the sort of emergency actions. they weren't meant to be setting precedent, were meant to be sobriety anybody -- but that is no longer true.

>> that's right, the best evidence of the old school approaches until the 1980. the norm was that these emergency applications were dealt with by individual justices, by themself. what we call, in chambers. where they could actually provide more process that needs to be actually pretty calm, and to have oral arguments in a civil justices chambers. they could write opinion, and no one would confuse that opinion as the word of the full court. and what happened in the 1980s, in response to the reentered solution of the debt penalty. is that the court moves towards this procedure with less and less principle. where towards the 1980s, and 2000s. it is -- and the schiff since 2017 has been buried into the mainstream. where we assume the court uses the same procedures to put back into place trump immigration policies, or other policies to block state covid mitigation measures. and to say to the lower courts, hey, you gotta follow our orders. you have to read the tea leaves. and if you do not, we are going to slap you down. and if you do not, we are goin >> so in terms of the way that this has developed, i think the

really important thing that i learned from reading the book is how suddenly this has all come on. it's not that this is a totally new procedure, just that it used to be used for break glass in case of emergency, it is now used for another thing. the other thing that has changes that people like you have been criticizing the court for doing this. and it's a bit upsetting. so federal judges who have been calling you out, all but by name. including justice alito who seems to be better bothered by you. i'm sure he's watching right now. i will tell you how i know, but i think is. actually i don't know that it all. i wonder if you sense that since they have started doing this, and people like you have started criticizing. they feel embarrassed. or, they feel the need to explain themselves because they feel that this is a justified change. >> that's what's really important to see to everybody. the court isn't there, and that it. so do i think that justice alito is modified by public criticism? not especially. but i don't think that his is the vote that matters. and if you look at justice amy

cohen barrett. if you look at justice kavanaugh. you can see it in the last few months, a bit of a softening. fewer contests where they seem to be joining aledo and corset in voting for -- in the mifepristone case last month, where a majority of the court interviewed to prevent the order where it would have blocked access to mifepristone. where the court intervened to go into effect, one of the justices went up after the dissent, was justice barrett. i think that the public reaction after the ruling in 2021 had a bit of a mollifying effect. a bit of a sobering effect, at least on the folks who are now in the middle of the court. and i think that there is a lesson. there that maybe you are not going to per se the court to adopt a different methodology of constitutional interpretation. or to look at high profile divisive social issues differently. but if we actually talk about the court as an institution, if we look at the full range of what the court is doing, i think that there are

opportunities to build consensus about how everyone is going off the rails. that don't require everyone to say we need different justices, we need to rein in their power. >> in other words, pressure from a fair minded place that is based on reality. you can't actually shift them. shame exists! >> shame from an institutional perspective, if nothing else. [laughter] >> you had to complicated? >> yes, it's a law professor talk. >> the book is called the shadow docket, how that spread court is using undermining's to -- it's been talked about for a long time, it's been important for us to understand. and public pressure on this matter is making a difference already. in part because of you. steve vladeck thank you. >> thank you so much. >> we will be right back! ll be right back introducing astepro allergy. now available without a prescription. astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid-free spray.

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your mom hates you. your friends hate you. you wear the losers of your high school class. you're sloppy. you are not even matching. you have all different types of pants on. cargo pants are out. reclaim your virginity! >> mr. flood told us, quote, this guy was giving a speech, he kept having to stop and pull it out of his pocket and read it again. so every time he stopped, i would yell and say that he was foreign. and then i said, why can't you memorize your speech? why can't you memorize your speech? and then i said, you look like general custer's illegitimate son. the guy side and looked at me. and i thought, i got you. i got in your head! now get out of my town. a white supremacist group eventually left d.c. this weekend, but not before joe flood took up prior imminent residents in the heart of the city.

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