fact. we know with paul pelosi, not secret service but capitol police, and we did have all of that video of the man break into his home from the security cameras, but it apparently did not alert authorities before he was able to get in. carol leonnig of the "washington post," who broke the news about jake sullivan's home being broken into at 3:00 a.m. thank you so much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. there are new questions today regarding the access peddling and potential corruption that defined the trump era. that is thanks to a lawsuit against one of the central players in the disgraced ex-president's innermost circle, rudy giuliani. this new lawsuit comes from a woman named noel dunfee, she

worked for giuliani for two years. in a 70-page complaint filed in state court on monday, she said that after giuliani hired her in january 2019, he sexually assaulted and harassed her, refused to pay her wages and often made sexist, racist, and anti-semitic remarks. she has recordings of numerous interactions, laying out a litany of shocking incidents, involving sexual misconduct. we have decided to spare you some of those details. it also contains, though, this bomb shell allegation involving the disgraced ex-president himself, from her lawsuit, quote, giuliani also asked ms. dunphy if she knew anyone in need of a pardon, telling her that he was selling pardons for $2 million that he and president trump would split. he told her she could refer individuals seeking pardons to him, so long as they did not go

through quote, the normal channels of the office of pardon attorney. correspondence going to that office would be subject to disclosure under the freedom of information act. now, that claim has some echoes in what we already do know, what has been publicly reported about what the ”the new york times” once described this way as quote a market for pardons in the final days of the trump administration. "new york times" reporting back in january of 2021, this, quote, a one-time top adviser to the trump campaign was paid $50,000 to help seek a pardon for john kuriakou, a former cia officer convicted of disclosing classified information, and agreed to a $50,000 bonus if the president granted it. he was separately told that trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, could help him secure a pardon for, wait for it, $2 million. mr. kuriakou rejected the

officer but an associate feared mr. giuliani was illegally selling pardons contacted the fbi. a spokesperson for giuliani tells nbc news this, quote, mayor rudy giuliani, unequivocally denies the allegations raised by ms. dunphy. mayor giuliani's lifetime of public service speaks for itself, and he will pursue counter claims. a spokesperson for donald trump did not respond to a request for comment, but this is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. with us at the table, "new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt. he has done extensive reporting on pardons of the trump era. joining us former senator claire mccaskill is here, joining us from afar, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, and andrew weissmann is back, former lead prosecutor in robert mueller's special counsel's office, former chief of the fraud division at

doj. mike schmidt, this is your reporting about mr. kuriakou for a market value of $2 million for pardon. let me read some more of your reporting from this body of reporting. the prospect of pardons in final days fuels markets to buy access to trump, quote, said he also broached his request for a pardon last year with mr. giuliani and his associates at the trump international hotel in washington which involved substantial alcohol. when giuliani went to the bathroom at one point, one of his confidants turned and suggested giuliani could help but quote, it's going to cost $2 million. he's going to want 2 million bucks. mr. kuriakou recalling the associate saying, 2 million bucks, are you out of your mind. he said even if i had 2 million bucks, i wouldn't spend it to recover a $700,000 pension. one of the patterns of the trump

era has been the powers of the presidency that were his and were his to do with them what he wanted. he still found a way to abuse those powers. his use of pardons for people that were instrumental to the mueller probe, scrutinized potential obstruction, and this body of reporting was about selling pardons. tell us what you know about sort of the status of how many of the unanswered questions remain. >> so when we wrote that story, i was pretty sure that we were going to be writing ago lot more about pardons in the months that followed. and despite that allegation, which is on the record, the justice department to the best of our knowledge never followed up with it, at least twice in the past two years, i had gone to kuriakou to check in, did anyone follow up on what you

said, and he said they had not. i was a business surprised given what is often a low bar or what used to be a low bar for the justice department or fbi to look into a potential crime. so that accusation and what went on with pardons struck me as extraordinary, but i think that -- i don't know why it didn't get more scrutiny. either from congress or the justice department. one of the problems that democrats and the justice department and the media to some extent was just that there was so much to cover and january 6th took up so much of our time and attention in the past few years, but pardons are still one of the great unanswered questions of the trump presidency. >> and andrew, just for my simple non-lawyer brain, which

part of this would be illegal, selling the pardon or granting the pardon if you got some of the money from the proceeds or all of it? >> i think there's an argument for all of that, the latter, what the president does is a little bit more complicate ed, but not that much more. everyone should think about what lagoyavich did in selling a senate seat. if rudy giuliani was not really intending to do this but just wanted the money, that also would be a form of mail and wire fraud. i do want to say with respect to these allegations, and by the way, there are allegations of tax fraud, there are allegations that rudy giuliani knew that the election was not stolen but was going to falsely claim that. all of those could get him into lots of hot water, but it is useful to remember this is just

a civil complaint. there may be tape recordings. there may be e-mails, according to the complaint that corroborated. but we don't know that yet. it's worth people taking a pause. i think to mike's point, it is something that if you're at the department of justice, you would look into. in other words, the low bar, i totally agree with, which is whether it's tax fraud, election fraud, or selling pardons, that's the kind of thing that normally the department of justice you're sort of licking your chomps, making sure that's not going on. >> you might have been, then, as far as we know, what is publicly facing, part of the last investigation at doj to scrub the use of the presidential pardon. let me read what the mueller report concluded. this is from the actual final report. michael cohen discussed pardons with the president's personal

counsel and believed if he stayed on message he would be taken care of. after cohen began cooperating with the government, president trump criticized him, calling him a rat, and suggested his family members had committed crimes. during manafort's prosecution, president trump stated manafort was being treated unfairly, and he could receive a pardon. i remember when the tape came out. i believe it was my colleague kristen welker, and trump was on the driveway of the white house. you never know why trump was anywhere. what effect does it have on a criminal investigation that is ongoing or at trial, which is when i think this happened, for a president to dangle a pardon. >> so dangling pardons, which is obviously separate and apart from selling pardons, both of which are deplorable and both of which can be crimes are really serious. i mean, with respect to the

mueller investigation, i've written about this, which is the problem is if you are trying to get somebody to cooperate and flip them, the tools that you have as a prosecutor is you develop a criminal case, and you sit down and with that person and their lawyer, and you say, this is the moment for you to make a decision. do you want to be with team united states or do you want to be a defendant. well, if the person knows that they are -- they are going to or could get a pardon from the president, it makes it a whole lot harder to cooperate and to get that person to cooperate. because they think, you know what, i have a get out of jail free car, and in fact, that is exactly what donald trump did with michael flynn, with roger stone with paul manafort, in a litany of people. this wasn't the usual abuse of the pardon power, which we saw bill clinton engage in. this was pardoning people who actually had an interest in what

evidence they might be able to give with respect to the former president. it wasn't just giving it to, you know campaign contributors or people he likes. this really fundamentally went to interfering with the investigation. so that can be a form of obstruction, and obviously selling pardons is also a federal crime. >> i want to just inform the conversation around -- these are open questions. trump is running for president again. this is looking back at what the culture of pardons is like in the final days. this is thanks to the january 6th select committee. >> and are you aware of any members of congress? >> mr. gaetz and mr. brooks i know have both advocated for there to be a blanket pardon for members involved in that meeting, and a handful of other members that weren't at the december 21st meeting. as the preemptive pardons.

mr. gaetz was personally pushing for a pardon, and he was doing so since early december. i'm not sure why. mr. gaetz had reached out to me to ask if he could have a meeting with mr. meadows about receiving a presidential pardon. >> all to you? >> not all of them, but several of them did. >> you mentioned mr. gaetz, mr. brooks. >> mr. bigs did. mr. doren talked about congressional pardons but never asked me about one. it was more for an update on whether the white house is going to pardon members of congress. mr. gomer asked for one as well. mr. perry as well. i'm sorry, i didn't mean to cut you off. >> did martha levine contact you? >> she didn't contact me about

it. i heard she asked for a pardon from mr. philbin but i didn't frequently communicate with ms. greene. >> ms. hutchinson did rudy giuliani ever suggest that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6th? >> he did. >> so importantly, they talk about pardons the way the rest of us talk about taylor swift tickets, they're dangled, sold, resold, they're coveted, they're in the water, how do you get one, who's going to get one. get in line, tell the staff we want one. pardons were part of the culture, and to mike's point, maybe we didn't pay enough attention to them, but it was another norm busted. i mean, the first person trump pardons, i believe, is sheriff arpaio, and it's on the eve of the first hurricane of his presidency, and they sort of go downhill in terms of ethics from there? >> yeah, i mean, really, there needs to be a book just written on pardons because there has never been a presidency where

pardons were so intertwined. they almost overtook the discussion of policy, and they were used two ways that should be offensive to every american. one was to silence witnesses to keep them from saying what they knew about bad things that were happening by and through the presidency. the second thing was for money. and, you know, we look at the trump family. we look at the grift, the amount of money that jared pulled out of the middle east within a nanosecond of leaving the white house. we look at the secretary of the treasury, doing the same thing, using his official position to plant the garden, to pull a lot of money out of the middle east, once he leaves. then you have all of these pardons floating around, what i don't understand, this is not a complicated thing to

investigate. you have a rather finite group of people you can look into. you can look at the people who got pardons, and ask them if they paid anyone, and when i think there were 73 pardons given in the closing days of the trump presidency, it seems like to me the follow up on this is not complicated for the fbi, and i don't think it's too late. i think they need to be looking at who paid for what, especially in light of this allegation that mirrors what "the times" reported two years ago. >> claire mentions two things you have done reporting on. arpaio pardon and the process that gets corrupted and obstructed and made anew in the image of trump, but she mentioned jared, and i think it's in the jared's 1/6 testimony, no, i wasn't dealing with stealing the elections i was working on pardons and middle east peace. how central was jared to the pardon process? >> jared took over the pardon

process from the white house counsel's office in the summer of 2018. and don mcghan who was the white house counsel, who had endured incredibly extraordinary behavior by trump towards him was really bothered by this. >> why? >> because for the pardons process to sort of have some credibility, it needs to be shown that everyone is given a fair look, and everyone is treated equally under the law. it's sort of a central tenet of the american democracy, and if you give it to the president's son-in-law, and you have a process that is not being run by lawyers then it brings into question what's really going on here. and of all the things that went on, that really bothered mcgahn, and then when trump went ahead and pardoned the woman who the

kardashians had brought to the white house and the kardashians had lobbied for and gone around the white house office, he basically said to himself, i'm done. that was the breaking point for him, and he knew that he truly had to get out. and kelly was never able to wrestle the pardon's process back from jared. kelly is gone by the beginning of 2019, and this allowed jared to consolidate his power around this extraordinary thing. jared's not a lawyer. everyone talks about, well, the justice department pardon process wasn't followed. the white house counsel's office for a significant portion of pardons and commutations was cut out. it's not just the justice department. some of these just went right through jared and trump. and that was different. >> joyce, i guess the question is it illegal, and does it justify a congressional or a

justice department investigation? >> you know, i guess those are two different things. the legality versus whether there should be some oversight. the president has broad powers when it comes to granting pardons, but most white houses use for the reasons mike identified, the process that involves the doj's pardon attorneys. having evaluated pardon questions, it's an exhaustive review, it might include talking to prosecutors and defense lawyers. it can include talking with judges who tried cases and getting information on a prisoner's record if they were incarcerated for a period of time. there's this effort to apply a consistent settle of standards and to develop a value for when a pardon or clemency, which is essentially about mercy and justice when that process should be used for one individual out of just the stacks of people who apply. so the fact that this sort of a process wasn't used in the trump

white house, not much of a surprise. there was never much of a commitment to the rule of law or justice. but probably nothing illegal because of the broad expansive powers. the situation we're talking about with this lawsuit could possibly implicate as andrew says on giuliani's part, for certain, wire fraud concern. there could even be something like what rod blagojevich, the former governor of illinois went through, if there was a quid pro quo broad situation, that requires investigation, but congress can absolutely take a look at this sort of a matter and whether or not procedures are necessary. they can't circumvent the constitutional power, but they can look at how these sorts of issues are administered by doj, what sort of people should be involved in the process, and of course i think the ultimate slap on this one is that kushner is running the process, and in the late days, it may well be one of the last pardons that gets

issued, his own father gets a pardon in that process as trump is walking out of the white house door. so everything here smacks of a process that's not committed to justice. >> joyce, do we know that, i mean, rudy's charging $2 million. jared takes it over, and i always think when i hear that don mcgahn or general kelly or rod rosenstein, how bad was it. the people who sat through people on both sides, grab them in the bleep, it's so bad even those people are distraught. how do we know jared didn't run afoul of any laws. money was being peddled by rudy, jared was in charge of it, and it was a process everybody even by trump's standards offended the chief of staff, the white house counsel, and the deputy attorney general. >> it goes exactly to claire's point. this is not difficult to investigate.

there is a finite universe of people that the fbi would need to talk to. and my calculation, if there's a five-year statute of limitations for potential criminal charges, then we're not yet past that deadline, and certainly it would be worth the undertaking. one of the things that strikes me as interesting about this complaint here, andrew is right when he says it's a civil complaint. we don't know much about the allegations, one thing we know is this is a verified complaint. when the plaintiff signs it, she verifies it, notarizes it, subjects herself to the penalty of percentage if anything she says turns out to be a lie. in this complaint, she doesn't say that she's familiar with any parts that were actually issued where giuliani obtained payment. she simply makes the allegation that he approached her, and this is consistent with what she lays out as their business arrangement, that part of her job is to bring him business

opportunities and he, in essence, is making her aware that this is one line of opportunity that they can pursue. if i was in maine justice or a u.s. attorneys office with jurisdiction, i would be jumping on this one now. there's an obligation to the american people to make sure that nothing corrupt happened based on this compilation of allegations. >> andrew weissmann, if you were at doj, do you view it as just a coincidence that the one reported pardon for sale from mr. kiriakou was $2 million, and it's a civil complaint has the price, i mean, mike and i are watching the wire, you go back and talk to the drug dealers over and over again, to see if their stories are the same. 2 million keeps coming up, is that enough for doj to want to investigate if perhaps pardons were for sale for $2 million? >> i think to mike's point, which is that you don't even need the civil complaint. it was enough that kiriakou was saying this is -- >> your dog has thoughts, andrew weissmann. >> yes, exactly.

>> he agrees with me. >> i have a dog that howls to sirens, so i live in the city, this is what you get. >> i love it so much. made my day. >> there's two reasons to investigate this. you have kiriakou, as mike said, saying it. you now have a civil, as joyce said, verified complaint. those are two reasons, and there's a third reason, presumably, there are a number of criminal prosecutors who are interested in whether rudy giuliani can be charged and whether he can be flipped. so there's an allegation here that he knew that the election was not stolen, but was going to make the claim anyway. that's central to what jack smith and fani willis are looking at. so you'd think they would want to pursue all of the potential criminality on the part of rudy giuliani, because that's how you flip somebody. there are allegations of tax fraud in connection with his having somebody basically hold

his income to keep it from his wife. but he also kept it from the irs, both state and federal. if that's true, that's another potential crime that he could be charged with. those are the building blocks. that's what you do as a prosecutor, so i really think mike's point is right, which is where is doj, why are we not seeing doj and actually now georgia looking into this because rudy giuliani is such an important target/potential corroborating witness, and these are really serious allegations, so you want to be sure what they happen, do you want to hold them to account, if it didn't happen, you want to investigate it to be able to show, no, there wasn't pardons being sold. either way, it's something that the department has an enormous interest in getting to the bottom of. >> can i ask andrew a question?

>> sure. >> i have a question, by the time the mueller report was over, fellowship, manafort and stone had not been pardoned. if they had been pardoned at that point, by the time the investigation was coming to an end, do you think that would have changed the calculation about whether trump obstructed justice? >> wow, hypotheticals. >> it's a law school exam. >> it's an important one. so, you know, i think that the issue is that there were already ten instances that were laid out in volume 2 of the mueller report with respect to donald trump, you know, having allegedly obstructed justice. i personally think those facts would be sufficient to show obstruction.

obviously he was the current president then, and could not be charged. would there be additional evidence if he then carried out doing pardons for roger stone, for paul manafort, for michael flynn, particularly, let's just take paul manafort, where he made it so abundantly clear, what he wanted to see happen with paul manafort not cooperating, and he even tweeted and talked about the case while the jury was deliberating, so i think that would have been additional fodder and additional evidence, and i guess my bottom line answer to you is i don't know that one needed it. but it certainly, i think, would have been additional things that would have been articulated in the report. >> so interesting. i guess hypotheticals are all we have as he mounts another campaign for the presidency, what he would do next is almost scarier than what he did then. andrew weissmann, thank you, and your howling dog.

i would like to howl at sirens myself. thank you both for spending time with us. mike, claire and joyce, stick around a little bit longer. we have an update on a story we have been covering all day long. president biden is changing his g7 travel plans in the face of debt negotiations which have wrapped up in the white house. the money we use as a country to pay our country's bills is expected to run out june 1st. president joe biden will return to the u.s. on sunday, shortening what was supposed to be a seven-day foreign trip, in order to make sure that a deal is reached. house speaker kevin mccarthy just spoke outside the white house and says the parties are still far apart, but they say it's possible they could reach a deal by the end of the week. when we come back, we will turn to e. jean carroll who has another defamation case against the ex-president pending, which she and her lawyer told our colleague rachel maddow about last night where one of them stands.

plus, florida governor ron desantis making good on a promise to overhaul his state's education system, effectively muzzling the voices of democracy and diversity. we'll get reaction to that. and later in the broadcast, congressman gerry connolly will be here on the attack at his office yesterday, and the very real and very frightening reality of a rise in political violence. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" returns after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products...

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be? do you think that potentially could be actionable if you were to file another suit, would it work the same way? >> it's definitely actionable, and here the cruelty will make his less wealthy. he's not going to get away with it another time. it's unprecedented for a person to have been held liable in defamation to keep doing the defamation. i have a lot of lawyers who are very busy looking into this, and we are weighing all of our options. >> wow, that was a lawyer for e. jean carroll, roberta kaplan, telling rachel maddow that the twice impeached, indicted and liable ex-president's shameful performance at the town hall has opened himself to another lawsuit. while he's opening himself to legal liability, over remarks he made when he was president is still making its way through the courts. here's roberta kaplan on that

second case. >> you're going to see news from us in that case very very soon, rachel. >> what counts as soon? >> two to three days, max. >> working around the clock. mike schmidt, claire mccaskill, and joyce are still with us. i think people thought in the moment it was norm busting for trump to defame the person that a jury had just unanimously found him liable for defaming, and the woman to the left, roberta kaplan was scrubbing that transcript, look to go see if there was something actionable. we have our answer. there is indeed. what do you think e. jean carroll's appetite is for an additional lawsuit? >> e. jean carol is nothing if she's not tenacious. we have known each other for years, and she is, i think, firmly convinced that she has an obligation to represent not just her own interests but other women in this situation.

and so we all know what the problem is here. if you don't stand up to the bully, the bully will keep coming back at you. but at the same time, there's this issue of just how much is it fair to ask e. jean carroll to shoulder. this is a national burden, donald trump, yet, the fact that he would come and re-defame her and subject her to verbal assault days after a jury holds him accountable if an earlier case, it suggests that firmer measures have to be taken to face down this bully. >> that is claire, exactly, what e. jean gets at when rachel asks her about her considerations in further litigation. let me show you that. >> remember when he came -- i've seen now clips of the cn thrks -- cnn town hall. when he came on stage, right after our enormous victory, and he made jokes about sexual

assault, i couldn't believe the pain he was causing to thousands of people by joking about sexual assault. and that's how he hurts people. that's how he hurts people, and i'd love to have robbie kaplan just shut him up. >> famous last word, right? >> she's saying what a lot of us feel. we'd love to get them to shut up. but the things that have to be taken into consideration here are not just the black and white law as to whether or not he defamed her. but she has achieved a great victory at a great cost. the question is what trump did outrageous enough in that town hall to get another victory or do they risk somehow taking the shine off what she's accomplished by going down a path when most of the jurors

know in the back of their minds that trump says crazy bleep stuff all the time. and, you know, her trial was about a lot more than just what he said. it was about what he did in that dressing room. it was about how vicious he was when confronted with his conduct in that dressing room, so it was a much bigger case than just his one-off ridiculously gross unfair things he said in that town hall. this is a tough decision for her and her lawyers because you don't want to take two steps forward and take one step back by having a jury diminish what she has already accomplished. >> that's such a good point, and the trial also became about borrowing some of the best traditions of the me too era of the contemporaneous contemporan

corroborators. >> i don't agree with him, let me make that clear. there are people out there who think this guy is going to say what he wants to say and in america people get away with saying a lot of horrible stuff. technically what he did was defamation. i worry a little bit about whether or not it diminishes what she's already done in such a brave and as joyce said, tenacious fashion. >> thousand late to you work? we'll see what they do next. mike schmidt, joyce vance, thank you very much for being part of this. this was just supposed to be our start. thank you for staying longer than any of you planned. claire will stick around a little bit longer. labeling the study of race and gender in america as niche. florida's governor says the state universities will not be teaching those lessons, he calls them distractions, we'll talk about his reshaping of university education, next. k

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school's teach courses involving racism and sexism, oppress and privilege, and ban them from hiring teachers and admitting students based on their beliefs, statements or actions involving politics or race. desantis signed the bills at new college of florida. what was a progressive school. he has packed the board with conservative allies. desantis called quote niche subjects like critical race theory and diversity and inclusion subjects a quote, game that florida is getting out of. he also said this, quote, if you want to do things like gender ideology, go to berkeley. joining our conversation, former republican congressman from florida, david jolly, and chair of the study of african-american colleges, eddie glaude. teaching people not to be a racist or sexist, i got my money's worth. what is this about, eddie

glaude? >> this is a kind of relitigation of the old culture wars. this is harold bloom's the closing of american minds. i have been sitting here trying to keep my cool because i'm so angry. there's a sense in which the stakes of what desantis is doing are very high. you have to read this moment yesterday against the backdrop of a report just recently released in the journal of american medical association showing that over the last two decades, black communities have experienced an excess of 1.6 million deaths compared to white folk, and why is that the case? it's a culture of inequality, health care disparity, legacies of rayism and what desantis is doing is cultivating a willful ignorance. it's not an abstract question. it's a question of life and death in some instances and rehashing an old argument by this moment should be getting on

everyone's damn nerves. >> i don't want you to quell anything that you're feeling because i think you're channelling it for a lot of us. but turn it around, what are you afraid of, if you have to ban equality and diversity programs, eddie? >> well, i think there's this sense in which who's going to get access to social capital. the debate is not happening around community colleges, the debate is happening around elite state schools, elite schools across the country. who's going to get access to this. this is happening against the backdrop of a supreme court decision coming down the pike that's going to change the landscape. affirmative action is basically going to be dead. the way higher ed will look will fundamentally change, the stories we tell ourselves about how we got here will fundamentally change, and can fundamentally change. this is a battle in the soul of america, my view. >> i think, eddie, the idea of this as being covered as a winning political issue is perhaps the grossest part about

it, right? this is about taking away from large swaths of students at the beginning of their academic careers, at the beginning of their efforts to sort of grab a piece, right, of the american dream. taking away something that makes them feel like the playing field may be for them as well. not that it's been leveled. it hasn't been leveled. it's a place for them. let me read you some reporting from cbs news from a florida public university student. caylee, a sophomore at florida international university and the president of the school's pride student union is afraid that florida could do away with funding for diversity, equity and inclusion programs on college campus, my initial reaction was scared, then angry. that is our community, that's where we find our family. tell me what it says, eddie, that these are at least in desantis and his political operatives do winning political strategies in the republican

party? >> well, in terms of the student, it lets us now, just really quickly, it lets us know that some students don't feel a sense of possession of their institutions. they feel like they have been admitted by way of charity, a sense of belonging, possession of the institution. this is going to deepen the feeling of alienation. in terms of what you're saying, it's a winning political issue, it speaks volumes about the nation. the fact that data cited from the report from jama, right, isn't about loud racists. it isn't about people running around with hoods on their heads, white sheets over their heads. it's about those who are indifferent, who are silent in the face of these assaults. so it's a winning issue because it's appealing to not only people's fears and grievances and hatreds, it's also taking advantage of people's indifference. the state of the country is not just simply because of loud racists, it's because of those who are content with their way

of life and who are content to live in a country where loud races run amuck. that's why it's a winning issue, it seems to me, if that makes sense. >> it makes perfect sense, and david jolly, this is where everyone who thinks it's enough to stay quiet and do nothing is part of the problem. everyone who's indifferent to ron desantis's campaign or jihad, really, against wokism is part of the problem. what it is, it's an unbelievable operationalized and sanctioned and green lit rolling back of the time, to a time when women didn't have equal rights, when lgbtq students didn't have equal rights, when racism wasn't contended with and put out there to touch and feel for nothing else to make sure we didn't do it again. it's sick, and i wonder what you think about the fact that it is largely covered as a winning political issue in the republican party in 2023?

>> i love that framing, nicolle, because i think the most damning part about the legislation the governor signed yesterday is not just the defunding of dei programs but the state curriculum that builds into we are a nation that still impacts our status and institutions today. that accuracy of teaching is prohibited by state law in the state of florida. so we can cover it as a political story but it's deeper than that, nicolle, and i think you and i and claire and eddie have seen the rise of ron desantis, and we have covered it as the rise of someone who has been seen as trump light, but i think we've now entered the phase that we have to recognize, this is who ron desantis is. this is his ethos. what type of sick and demented person would play theater with migrants at the border and ship

them to martha's vineyard, deny homosexuality and bisexuality in the state but for achieving hate, what type of person would prohibit the teaching of systemic racism, something foundational to our history, but for his sympathies to white christian nationalism and i say this with seriousness and sobriety, where we saw ron desantis as a political figure on the right, he's become a leader of some of the darkest hearts in our nation, and we need to recognize that and recognize the danger he presents should he ultimately become president of the united states. >> i mean, claire, it requires in journalist and journalism is doing a very good job. that's how we know about these stories. there are a lot of great journalists in florida, i worked in the state, and there are a lot of great journalists from national outlets paying attention for the reasons articulated by david jolly just now. we need to turn the dial a tick more, and understand what it says when we cover stories about why things work. we can't just stop at, oh, you

know, youngkin rose on an anticritical race theory platform, let's see if it works for desantis. this is not a healthy way to talk about these things which are exactly what david jolly just said, candidates brazenly running for people's dark voice. >> yeah. talk about appealing to the worst among us. and the worst instincts among us. i have to recognize our friend and i'm always a little nervous when i'm on with him because he speaks so clearly. and he's just brimming with so much intellect. it's just a little bit, you know -- >> i feel the same way. >> what i heard today was such a deep sense of anger and frustration. it gets me emotional. because i really think all of us need to take bake seat to eddie

today. because what he does every day, he tries to teach students context and to understand what this greet american experience is all about. and the ugly part of it, we have to understand and learn about. and what desantis is doing is he's saying i'm going to remove the necessity for anybody to ever hear the truth about how black people were treated in this country. >> and desantis is also removing the ability to -- what he wants is george floyd out of the curriculum. he's not just erasing history, he wants to erase the present. >> and he's done things like denied books about the holocaust, for gosh sakes. and then, if you think about the politics of it, i come to david jolly. this is a guy who is now telling

one of the largest states in america what they can read, what they can learn with tax dollars. this is the worst kind of big government, big oppressive government trying to control what you learn and what you read. it should scare every american that he is actually registering on polls for president. forget about donald trump. i think desantis could be more dangerous because he's obviously not a buffoon. >> that's such an interesting thing. not obviously buffoon. where does that leave you? >> well, you know? >> i think i have to convene ourselves to have this conversation every week. it's just not enough to cover what he's doing. i think we have to get at why and why it works in some corners of the republican party.

that's the scary thing for all of us. david jolly, eddie, thank you so much for spending time with us today. another break for us. we'll be right back. y. another break for us we'll be right back. (cecily) you're looking pleased with yourself. (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) so you got an awesome network... (seth) and when i switched, i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. not bragging. (cecily) you're bragging. (neighbor) oh, he's bragging. (seth) who, me? never. oh, excuse me. hello, your royal highness, sir... (cecily) okay, that's a brag. (seth) hey, mom. i gotta call you back. (vo) visit your verizon store during our spring savings event

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i was, you know, really on the floor by republicans and democrats who easily related to me today. well, we don't have security. we don't have the kind of security we have up here in the capitol at the district level. many of our offices are in malls or, you know, office buildings or -- and, so, you know, you don't have any kind of sophisticated protection or security screen. so, i think we're going to have to really talk about that as republicans and democrats up here. what are we prepared to do? how do we meet such a broad challenge? >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. worry and unease ringing throughout the halls of the u.s. capitol following a horrible attack yesterday at that man congressman gerry connolly's

district office in fairfax, virginia. another instance of political violence becoming all too common in the country. the 49-year-old man wielding a metal bat assaulted two of congressman connolly staffers, one of them was an intern on her first day. luckily, both suffered only nonlife threatening injuries and were leased from the hospital later in the day. congressman connolly described the act of violence as, quote, unconscienceable and devastating. according to his office, the us is speck was looking for the congressman himself but he was not in the office at the time. one of the constituents was taken into custody and charged with malicious wounding. he refused to appear this morning. we don't know the motive for his attack. the suspect's father told "the washington post" that his son struggled with mental illness for decades. this video caught on a doorbell camera showing the suspect with the bat chase being after a woman shortly before.

he went to connolly's office. yesterday's attack adds to the recent fate of violent attacks. in october, a man attacked nancy pelosi's husband with a hammer. the man had been looking for the speaker and wanted to, quote, break her knees. will following the fbi search of mar-a-lago in august, a man went to the fbi field office in cincinnati with an ar-15 and a nail gun. fortunately, no one in the fbi field office was hurt. and the number of threats against elected officials has surged in recent years. here's u.s. capitol police chief tom manger testifying before congress earlier today. >> one of the biggest challenges we face today is dealing with the increase in the number of threats against the members of congress. it's gone up over 400% over the last six years. these events demonstrate how the capitol police need to transform into a more protective agency, one that concentrates on

protecting members and their families throughout the country, not merely in washington, d.c. his former congresswoman gabby gifford's put it last night. political violence has no place in a democracy. the heightened threat environment for lawmakers and staffs is where we begin the hour with congressman gerry connolly, democrat of virginia. congressman, we feel like we are calling you all the time to be part of our conversations. and when the story turned to one about your office, we were very worried about your office and your staffers including your intern on her first day. i just want to start by saying i'm glad you're safe and i wonder how your staffers are doing today. >> thank you, nicole. the good news is that the damage could have been a lot worse. and the two members of my staff who were injured were released from the hospital last night.

so they're now on the road to physical recovery. but the big thing is, of course, the trauma recovery. that's very real. that can take a long time. we have to make sure that everybody has the resources they need to fully grapple with what happened and recover from it. >> i mean, i know there's been some reporting, probably not enough when you think about the scale of the trauma. capitol hill staffers who were in the u.s. capitol on january 6th reported feeling trauma and ptsd. and now you have this lingering angst on any day in your district office. what is available for them in terms of psychological support? >> there are a number of things available on the capitol police from the chief administrative office from the sergeant of arms. the chaplin of the house, to all

kinds of outside resources. we're going to have somebody who is kind of an expert in trauma recovery come and talk to our staff. and they can then decide what, if any resources, they want to avail themselves of. ron barber with gabby gifford saying that tragedy suffered from ptsd and recovered and he would be more than welcome and is willing to be a resource. we have a lot of resources. but everybody's individual situation is different. we want to make sure that whatever happens is custom made and appropriate and welcomed for that individual. >> you also, i think, have ignited what seems like nonpartisan conversation about security for members and their staffers. what can you tell me about what you're hearing from democrats and republicans? >> in my 15 years in the house, i've never seen the kind of outpouring or never experienced

the outpouring i have experienced the last 24 hours from both sides of the aisle. genuine concern from my staff and a look of concern and recognition on people's faces that, hey, this was a random act of violence from somebody suffering mental illness. i think it's kind of broken open. to and from the capitol. and what we can do to try to protect our staffs and the public we serve who may be in our offices when and if something awful happens. >> there are two pieces of that. and as a country, we learn this after 9/11. there is a hardening of potential targets. but they're also on the other side of the equation could be a softening of the things that radicalize and incentivize violence and access to weapons.

which part of the conversations are taking place? >> i think for everybody there is a different line. there is a balance between the need for security, for a staff that we serve, and our accessibility to the public we serve. and every member has maybe a different take on that. in my case, i've been a public officer and in congress for 29 years. i have always had an open door policy. i've always had an office in the ground floor to serve my constituents. so, you know, we can deal with walk in it's people have a need. and no barriers between me and my staff and that public we serve. until yesterday morning. so, that worked for 29 years. it stopped working yesterday morning. you know, lots of different members have different ways of coping with that. the more and more, there are barriers being installed for

security purpose that's make it hard for the public -- purposes that make it hard for the public to enter that office. if that's a tragedy of this incident, i'm going to be one sad public servant. >> what would it look like if we actually -- if everyone sort of got out the corners and we had a wholistic conversation about how to lower the temperature in the country? >> yeah. i agree with you. the implication of your question, i totally agree with. look, we can't pretend there is not a problem here. and anything that raises the threshold of acceptability about violence, anything that normalizes violence as a part of our quality is absolutely wrong. it is against constitutional democracy and needs to be condemned on a bipartisan basis. and unfortunately, we have allowed a creeping sense of, well, some of that is okay. and some of that is just, you

know, hyperbolic rhetoric. no. that kind of rhetoric empowers action. we saw it january 6th. we see it all across the country. that can be the outcome. i think we -- it's like this. we really need to be careful. and try to protect everybody's security and safety with the wording we use to describe a political situation or an opponent or situation or issue. >> i know you and i have gathered on some days when, you know, over here in the political arena. things have been too hot. when members have targeted with images or language, some of your democratic colleagues with violence. i'm thinking of other members that have championed ar-15 pins and suggested they become the

official gun of the country. others who align and associate with militia groups. some of the militia groups are found guilty of seditious conspiracy. it sounds like it unraveled. the train has left the station on this question of political violence. even if an incident like this is so harrowing, that people get religion, all of the people that hear the messages and believe there is some sort of permission structure granted to stand back and stand by or to act on it have already heard the wrong messages. what do we do about that? >> yeah. unfortunately, i think we do it through cycles in our history. violence and even violence in the congress was not unheard inform the 19th century. it culminated in the attack of the senator of massachusetts which really inflated the north and south and lent directly to the civil war. that was a violent act committed

by a member of congress against a u.s. senator on the floor of the senate. we don't want to go back to those days. we know what can flow from that. yeah, you may be right that the horse left the barn on this. that doesn't mean we can't try to put the horse back in the barn safely and soundly. it just can't be acceptable. we need everybody to be preaching that. in our religious faith expressions, in our political expressions and in our social and cultural expressions. it is not okay to empower and give, as you said, permission for the entertainment of violence. its corrosive. and it's a fast way to end democratic institutions and the freedoms we all cherish. >> was there anyone whose outreach surprised you? >> i was really positively taken

with outreaches from our leadership. speaker kevin mccarthy called. we had a good conversation. minority leader jeffries called. the we had a great conversation. republican and democratic colleagues, both from my home state of virginia and across the country reached out. former members have reached out. i've been overwhelmed with the reaction. it really has, at least for this moment, brought a lot of us together who otherwise might not have had reason to do so. i'm glad to say there is a humanitarian, empathetic streak in the congress that's alive and well. i'm proud of my staff in the last 24 hours. >> i'm so happy to hear that. i think that it was an intern on her first day, you know, i'm old enough to have friends with kids that are interns. the best internship you can imagine is to intern for a member of congress. and to have an intern be among

the victims of this act of violence is heartbreaking. i'm glad to hear that it's broken through some of the muscle that seemed like hardened muscle patterns that are on the hill. i'm glad that you're safe. congressman gerry connolly, thank you for spending time with us. >> thank you so much, nicole. >> we're sending our bit of wishes for recovery, physical and psychological to your staffers. thank you. >> thank you. joining our conversation, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security and co-founder of the political party forward miles taylor is back. he's the author of the forthcoming book "blowback." also with me at the table, democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college. miles, you've been warning about political violence for as long as you've been coming on this program. what are your thoughts today? >> nicole, it's obviously a deeply disturbing attack. there is one point of it that i really want to zoom in on. that is the suspect allegedly went into the office and said,

"where is gerry?" this is really resonating to me. why? because we saw the attack at pelosi's home. the suspect went in and said where is nancy? the people who stormed the capitol said where are they? referring to members of congress. we had someone show up at someone else's home, where is permilla? these people are not just engaging in random acts of violence. it is clear to me that america's public servants are not just being hounded, they are being hunted. and that book you pointed to, nicole, i talk about this in "blowback." one of the big take ways is we're seeing a statistical surge in threats against america's public servants. but again, it's not random. what we're seeing is in a lot of the things is that the individuals are responding to the call. the call from political extremists telling them to take things to a violent place. eric smallwell and i were talking about this. owe talked about his republican colleagues who see the rhetoric like professional wrestling.

they think it's entertainment. but here's the problem. their supporters don't see it as entertainment. when they're taking a baseball bat to democracy, the supporters actually go take a baseball bat to congressional staffers. that is worrying. the last point is i was talking to someone who prepares what is called the pdb, president's daily brief. you're familiar with that. intelligence that the president gets. what worries me is not threats from russia and china and terrorists, its that the threats here at home against america's public servants are the biggest national security threats we face. i think that's very telling that our intelligence professionals are now looking inward instead of outward. >> to follow up, the problem is that the pdb is prepared to help a president direct foreign policy to make any adjustmentors pivots.

you don't have anywhere close to the tool kit of tools to pivot to -- we don't have laws that govern domestic terrorism. we can't get them to agree on what the definition of what domestic terrorism actually is. >> well, if you think about it, just the fact that there iseasy access to weaponry and rhetoric and even mental illness when you put those things together, that call to action that i just spoke about becomes so much more serious because it really is something that the supporters of that kind of language and that kind of action take to heart, take seriously. we're not prepared for that at all. and to something like the congress member says. i think it is really important for folks that care about public service. there is an important intimacy that an elected official has with the public. so yes, there is -- >> ground floor office. store front offices, that is

especially member of congress. so, to be in a place we have to start talking about restricting that access to point does really hurt and hamper the political process and the whole -- that pillar of public service which is being there to support and defend your constituents. if lose that, we lose a very important part of ourselves. since we touched on mental illness, one thing that really should be remembered in all of this conversation, during and post covid, many cities and states not only cut funding for mental illness but closed a lot of places where folks that were mentally ill were able to access. frankly, we still have not felt the real effect of that at this point in time. we will continue to do that. my sense is for many years to come. in addition to this conversation and policy around protecting elected officials particularly members of congress, we also need to be hammering away at what we're going to do for the

mentally ill in this country and not just sort of pushing it under the rug and hoping that it solves itself. >> i want to -- i don't want this conversation to end without sort of putting back into the center of it the victims. a young intern on her first day of her internship for a member of congress and another staffer in a district office. there is some -- i don't know if resignation is the word -- but acceptance when you're a public person and step into the public arena, you know you're a target for your positions or party affiliation. but there is something incredibly distressing about these young staffers being victims of violence. what are your thoughts about sort of how we protect staffers who are capitol hill staffers running for their lives on january 6th? district office staffers are probably a little more nervous today, a lot more nervous today

than they were yesterday. what do we do for them? >> you know, nicole, the symbolism as you note is incredibly disspiriting. i'm glad you mentioned january 6 in this regard. there is a personal anecdote. i started my career like an intern. in my ok, a congressional paige. i worked on the house floor. you run errands for members of congress as a high school student. and the desk that i sat at in the back of the chambers, the best view you could have of american democracy. that same desk that inspired me to go into public service was the desk they pushed in front of the doors to barricade the house chamber to keep them from storming in. over the course of 20 years, that place went from a place of inspiration for young people to a desk as they sat as the last line of protection. that goes to show you how far we've come since 9/11 when we were inspiring people to go into public service. now the people that do that are

literally getting physically attacked. if that's not a wakeup call, i do not know what is. >> all right. miles and bazel are sticking around. when we come back, a popular secretary of state republican expanded the right to vote faces the wrath of gop primary voters. steady drum beat of conspiracy theories. the big lie colliding with voting rights at the ballot box. we'll tell you about that next. plus, all gripped all the time. how right-wing groups swindled close to $90 million from small donors only to disappear with the money. that's another example of how the disgraced ex-president paved the way for drifters and fraudsters to infect all aspects of politics. and there is new developments to report in the investigation of out of fulton county, georgia, as we inch closer to a decision about charge there's. we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e after a qui. dot n'go anywhere. when you really need to sleep. you reach for the really good stuff.

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as we go across high stakes primaries, an extraordinary opportunity to gauge and measure the effectiveness or lack thereof election denialism on the campaign trail. it is especially true in kentucky. it's a red state with a democrat serving and republicans are fight fog are the opportunity among themselves to replace him. our colleagues at nbc's first read say it's, quote, trump's candidate versus the candidate who has campaigned in trump's style. more loom innating is kentucky's

secretary of state primary. michael adams is a republican that worked with the governor on expanding voting rights in the state. and for that, he may just get kicked out of office. now facing two election deniers. in pennsylvania, a judge who ruled against certifying the 2020 election is running for that state supreme court. interestingly though, national republicans don't want her to win the primary. and maybe this is why. from "the new york times," denying the results of the 2020 election and casting doubts about the nation's voting system cost statewide republican candidates 2.3 to 2.7% in the midterm elections last year. that's according to a new study from states united action and they promote nair elections. it's great news. but it is depressing that one even had to create this statistic. and we cover the mid terms. 2.3% to 2.7% was more than what some of the races were decided

by. that's a lot. that's the election denier attacks. >> that's right. in my view, when i think about this you know, nothing succeeds like success. if you're a republican and the goal is to one elections as party leaders, then how do you find a way to put these deniers on the backseat? how do you keep them from gaining power and gaining momentum? they seem to be unable to do that, to a large extent right now. to be honest, i don't know how the party actually reacts to this and reacts to them unless they start losing and continue to lose. that seems like it's the only way it will happen. but i think what they could learn and what democrats certainly have learned from 2020 was from georgia, contesting every seat. even though secretaries of state were the sort of target of choice for donald trump, right now in my view, if you want to pull the country back to normal

if, you're an independent or republican, the way you do it is to make sure our elections are fair. you can do that by targeting. secretary of state seats, make -- making sure they keep the conspiracy theories at bay. >> i think the gap has never been so big. a problem for a lot of republicans is the gap between the base wants and what swing voters tolerate is very long. >> and i understand that. the reality is george is not welcome to that style. that moderate northeast republican. he's not walking through that door any time soon. republicans, donald trump-led republicans are trying to concentrate power in the small groups.

it's not about adding to the party. it's concentrating power in the smaller group that will have more impact on local elections as opposed to running people nationally. that is a bit more dangerous. you can create that wedge to start siphoning votes off people that are making sense. i think one of the things that both democrats have to do with this coalition of independents and disaffected republicans and good -- well meaning republicans is to find a way to keep that at bay. i don't know that it happens. >> miles this is the structural problem with republican party. that's why i think losing a generation of losing is probably the best corrective measure. but this -- i guess a conundrum if you want republicans to win races. i think it's a benefit. but to have someone who is electable in a statewide never able to win a primary is sort of this cage of the republicans' own making, right?

>> yeah. it's a really weird thing happening right now, nicole. republicans love their losers at the moment. the only thing i would take issue with on the states united data, and they are fantastic. data is spot on. there are a lot of people winning big races around the country. we have the election deniers in office. and you have to ask yourself, why is this happening? well, these fringe candidates are getting elected by a fringe electorate f you look at the data, what is the number one political affiliation of the plurality of americans? not republican. not democrat. the plurality of the americans is independents. but, independents are forbidden in most states from voting in the primary. so the result is you often have fringe people on the extremes voting for people in the primaries. and then independents don't really get to have a say of who is on the general election

ballot. a lot of those are centrists. at the end of the day, you could really make the argument that these closed primaries are killing democracy by delivering us a lot of these extreme right-wing candidates without the opportunity for independents to squash it earlier in the process before they have no other choice at the polls. >> i love when our political conversations are this structural. i feel like we could figure it all out. miles taylor, thank you for spending time with us from wherever you are. wonderful to see you, friend. ahead for us, how right-wing operatives made out with nearly $90 million in small donor donations prove once again thanks to the disgraced ex-president it is all about the grip. the reporter that broke that story will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. r guest after quick break. don't go anywhere. age? dryness and frizz that keeps coming back, could be damaged hair that can't retain moisture. you need pantene's miracle rescue deep conditioner. it's filled with pro-vitamins to help hair lock in moisture,

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ever since the fateful day donald trump descended the escalator at trump tower in 2015, he has waged a campaign of gristing, the supporters and the american people to achieve his ultimate goal at the time, the presidency as well as to enrich himself along the way. over the past eight years, we've covered all of his attempts, trump university, there are too many cons to name here. but all the hustles has seeped into an infected all of politics and civic life.

there is an article that highlights how far the ex-president's influence and patterns and practice extends. "the times" uncovered a group of five linked nonprofits backed by conservative operate ufz are using sophisticated robocalls to raise millions of dollars from donors using pro police and pro veteran messages. the catch -- well, it's this. all the money is actually going into the pockets of the dwroernz themselves highlighting the lack of oversight in our country's team. david, it feels like this is yet another example as though we needed it of the inadd -- inadd questioncy of norms. explain. >> yeah, this was an amazing --

this was an enterprise we covered a little bit at a time. it is buried under a lot of complex filings that we unearthed. what you found is these people set up thousands and thousands of robocalls. they call your house with a recorded voice and say we're raising money to help the police. we're raising money to help firefighters and veterans. they raise a ton of money, $90 million. almos 1% of it went to where it was supposed to go, political candidates that would help the police. the rest disappeared. it went to pay for more fund-raising or 3% was siphoned off to three consultants who were the forces behind all these nonprofits. they were the ones that set them up and operated them. and they build their own creation. >> let me play one of the calls, david. >> carla? finally. good to hear a kind voice. that last call was tougher on me than my mother-in-law's meat

loaf. just kidding. this is frank wallace calling for the american police officers alliance. very quickly, we're mailing out envelopes to help fight for our officers who protect our nation's citizens like yourself. once you receive the card in the mail, you can send back whatever you any is fair this time. that's all. >> it's an audacious message considering that, you know, none of the money was going to police officers. i mean, it's reminiscent of the build the wall scam that steve bannon was ultimately pardoned for for trump. those would have been felony crimes committed. are there any crimes committed by these operatives? >> well, it's important to know that these nonprofits, these are nonprofits doing this raising this money. they were not governed the same way that charities are. and they're certainly not governed the way most political kmpz committees r they wedged themselves in a lightly regulated part of the campaign finance system. hard to figure out what they were doing. and even harder to enforce the laws. the laws are lax. the police in this case are the

irs that don't seem interested in enforcing laws in this area. there have been cases where the justice department has accused people of running what they call scam pacs. operations like this. they could take in a lot of money and don't spend it on politics. those cases are few and far between. we see no evidence of law enforcement activity which is that the irs looked at what they were doing and according to the groups given them a perfect score. >> a perfect score. since 2014, five groups have pulled $89 million in small dollar donors. 1% of the money raised spent on political contributions. also from the reporting, one other set of expenditures was especially notable. the groups paid $2.8 million or 3% of the money raised to three republican political consultants from wisconsin. they were the hidden force behind all five nonprofit as cording to people that work for the groups and who in some cases were kept in the dark by the consultants about the finances

of the operation. >> yeah. this is not the goal of the campaign finance reform post 2002. so, yeah, the loopholes abound. if this were run like a regular nonprofit, they would no longer be able to stay in business because the percentage that goes to the actual groups is not nearly enough. it does show that something does need to change within the campaign finance laws to make sure that if you're trying to raise money with these, i guess, 527 type organizations, there is a lot more accountability. they don't do anything near this. but i will say i do question even if the consultants are getting $90 millon, i wonder where they get that money. wisconsin, i'm nervous about that.

wisconsin, pennsylvania, michigan, i imagine they're going to spend that money for a lot of ill intentioned voter suppression or intimidation or any kind of misinformation. we have not seen the last of those dollars that came in. >> david, can you answer whether or not that's an active line of inquiry for you and your colleagues? >> we haven't seen these guys putting money into politics anywhere. sort of they did the opposite. they took money out of politics and put it in their own pocket. not say they couldn't do that down the road. the purpose of this scheme seemed to be going to conservative donors and the people that might donate to help conservative candidates or donald trump. and sort of taking their money in a way that made it sound like it was maybe going to be used to help conservative candidates. but then generally sort of sucking it out of politics. so, that seems to have been the point of it. not to say it couldn't resurface later. >> we'll continue to watch this line of reporting. thank you both for spending time with us today. when we come back, fulton

county district promised charging decisions this summer. there is a little movement in her investigation to tell you about. we'll get to that after a very short break. don't go anywhere. that after ay short break. don't go anywhere. (tap, tap) listen, your deodorant just has to work. i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later i still smell fresh. secret works. ohhh yesss. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and your enflamed eyes are so watery, secret works.

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but do i have to give up sweets? if you work out a diet plan, nothing is off limits. you dropped it! i don't know if i can afford all these prescriptions. we've got discount programs, you've got options. i'm just glad i have you to talk to about this. that's what i'm here for. the cgm, still getting used to it. let's take a look. when you need to talk diabetes, our pharmacists are here. asking the right question when you need to talk diabetes, can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. one of the many investigations into the twice impeached, once indicted liable ex-president that we've been watching closely is the one out of fulton county, georgia.

the district attorney's probe into the alleged interference in georgia's 2020 election may present his biggest legal peril. willis said earlier last month that charges and an indictment could come as soon as july. but deadline has not stopped trum frp trying to delay and halt her investigation in the tracks. yesterday willis asked a judge to dismiss the former president's efforts to have her disqualified from leading her investigation. in addition to asking to reject a request to suppress the final report from the grand jury. in the initial filing, trump's legal team accused willis of making bias statements about him and claim the grand jury investigating the 2020 election result had been, quote, tainted by improper influences. let's bring into our conversation political reporter for the atlanta journal constitution and msnbc contributor and also joining us our very own jordan ruben.

he writes the "deadline" legal blog. he is author of "bizaro." take us what she is having to contend with and where you think she is in terms of timing on her charging decision? >> yeah. this is a legal motion from donald trump's team that legal experts say is the equivalent of throwing everything against the wall and hoping something stuck. they're looking to squash the grand jury report and looking to throw the judge off the cause and looking to disqualify bonnie willis from if the case. and not surprisingly she wrote a 24-page rebuttal to that motion effectively saying that this was a procedurely flawed motion and the argue ams lack merits. she is fighting back. she's not to let this year's long investigation including eight-month long or so special grand jury probe go out the window without fighting back. >> greg, your reporting and our

current understanding is she's looking at july for any charging decision. is there anything to tell us about that? >> yeah. still looking like it could be as soon as july. donald trump's lawyers filed a motion today seeking a few weeks to respond to fani willis' response. i don't have any indication that is going to delay the time line yet. the judge could now decide to send a hearing to hear all these motions in person or rule without a hearing. >> jordan, i know you have written about -- we want to ask you about trump's comments in the town hall. i won't play them. this was the exchange. trump says, i did nothing wrong. a perfect phone call. not president zelenskyy but georgia. he says given the fact that there the indictment expected to come in the case the summer s that a call you'd make again? trump, yes. i thought it was a rigged election. i thought it had a lot of problems. i had every, i guess the

secretary of state. i called, listen to this. there are seven lawyers on the call. we're having a kachlt we're having a normal call. be in said og he shouldn't have said that. if this call is back, i question the election. trump says to see to it to find me 11,780 votes. just find them. and trump, we now know from the 1/6 select committee from bill barr to rosen to the top and bottom of the campaign, the campaign manager, up and down the chain of command knew that he lost and lost georgia. >> that's right. so, whatever else there is to say about the town hall, i was wondering ahead of time whether prosecutors were going to be tuning in and i think that probably it turn out to be the case. if not, they would have watched the replay of it. at the very least, trump has certainly not done himself any favors when it comes to the

georgia investigation or any other. the very least he is reaffirmed the exposure that he has and the georgia probe and possibly others, too. he certainly hasn't walked back anything that is going to make any prosecutors think twice aga >> jordan, it speaks to the brazenness. i remember when i was covering the mueller investigation, trump advisers in and out of the administration would say, over my dead body will he speak to robert mueller. he can't speak without lying. that pattern continues unabated because nobody has held him accountable for anything. do you really think -- is it fair for people to have an expectation that's going to catch up with him? >> yes, and we've started to get some hints of that. we've seen some accountability start recently in the civil realm with the carroll case which didn't deter trump from talking about it. advisedly. but i have no reason to think

we're going to stop seeing accountability. he's under criminal indictment in new york. when we look at what's actually happening i think there's certainly the start of it probably with more to come, including probably in georgia this summer, and i don't think that time line is going to be derailed by this latest trump effort to quash the special grand jury report. >> greg, is there any rumblings of murmurings coming out? very buttoned down investigation, i guess with the exception of the period where one of the jurors did a mini media tour, there has been nary a peep or a leak. sit still buttoned down, or are you hearing anything? >> still buttoned down. some things have to come out in terms of getting security officers ready for what could be one of the biggest law enforcement spectacles in recent georgia history, at least, so that is what we're hearing right

now is that directions are coming out to law enforcement just to be on alert from july to september, because they're going to have to take a number of other precautions and us a mentioned we've heard from other special grand juries who have not said it out loud but they've indicated we could see big names pointing towards an indictment of donald trump. >> big names. leaving a lot to the imagination. thank you both so much for spending time with us on this. you can read jordan's legal analysis on the big story wes cover here every single day. sign up for the deadline legal newsletter or scan the qr code right there on your screen. another break for us. we'll be right back. us we'll be right back. sting launds biggest myth... that cold water can't clean. cold water, on those stains? ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. turn to cold, with tide. ♪ the all-new chevy colorado is made for more. bring more. ♪ do more.

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thousand so much for letting us and your home during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> thanks so much. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. a we begin with this ongoing and conservative hunt for some kind of evidence or damning narrative about political opponents and how this keeps coming up empty in revealing ways. this is one a those stories that's crested this week because we had the trump era investigation end. i have new material on that, including how it's playing on the right and why that matters.