for the schools but for schools around the country right now. it is coming at a time when there are these restrictions coming not just to kids and high schoolers but not to public universities, too. we saw on monday that governor desantis signed a law that is going to keep public universities and colleges from spending their money on diversity, equity and inclusion programs. >> thank you for joining us. that will do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. in today's political climate where the fault lines are too often defined by conspiracy theory it is important to distinguish facts from fix and hype, reality from spin and disinformation, especially right now. today in light of the release of the durham report on the disgraced ex-president's much hyped investigation into the

investigators who investigated the ties between the trump campaign and russia and beyond. as new york times reports today, durham delivered a report that scolds the fbi but fails to live up to the expectations of supporters of donald j. trump that he would uncover a politically motivated deep state conspiracy. he charged no high-level fbi or intelligence official with a crime and acknowledged in a footnote that hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign did nothing prosecutable either. to no one's surprise though, the disgraced ex-president and his allies have used it as evidence of their priors and what amounts effectively to a campaign of disinformation. once again from "the new york times," predictably the reporter's actual content, it contained no major new revelations and it accused the fbi of confirmation bias rather than making a more explosive conclusion of political bias, made scant difference in parts of the political arena. mr. trump and many of his

loyalists issued statements treating it as vindication of their claims that the russia inquiry involved far more extravagant wrong do in. in essence the durham report has become more grips for the mill of right wing disinformation and led to ever more wild and, frankly, dangerous claims about our government and our government agencies and even our democracy. here is alabama republican tommy tuberville saying that the claims made in the durham report are supposedly so outrageous that they should lead to the end of elections and democracy. watch. >> but if people don't go to jail for this, the american people should just stand up and say, listen, enough is enough, let's don't have elections anymore. i wish there was a special investigation into the voter fraud because it was outrageous what happened, but nobody wanted to look into it because they were afraid they were going to be called out. and so it is what it is. i hate this this happened.

>> he is trying to out do himself from last week saying that white nationalists belong in the military. when asked what white nationalists are he said, you mean trump republicans, that tommy tuberville. republicans spinning the durham report despite a complete and utter lack of any new revelations or bombshells in side of it to justify attacks on law enforcement is where we begin. daniel goldman of new york. he was the former lead counsel for the first house impeachment inquiry into donald trump. joining us, new york times pulitzer prize winning national security reporter who hospital done extensive reporting on the durham roar. we read from it yesterday. charlie savage is here. plus, barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney now a law professor at the university of michigan is here. i'm sorry. we read from charlie's new story today, charlie savage. we read from your big investigation into the durham probe itself in that when the new durham report came out i want to actually start with you.

it seems like while we are also conditioned to see the trump right realize their delusions of grandeur in durham, there couldn't have been less for them to grab on to. it really does amount to a grasping at straws. you do a good -- a very, very good sort of fact-based articulation of everything that was already established by the doj's own inspector general, mr. horowitz. there was also the senate republican intelligence -- or the senate intelligence committee report that had already knocked out a lot of the fantasies republicans had for mr. durham before he completed his work to begin with. take us inside what you report today about the reality versus the spin. >> sure. so this was an analysis piece today that you were just reading from, sort of taking a step back. i have been following this investigation closely for years. can't believe it is over

finally. i think the big takeaway is, you know, i framed it as the durham investigation failed to deliver. we've had years and years of, you know, fox news fodder spinning off of his court filings, the mere fact that he was investigating drove twitter narratives by trump and his acolytes that any day now john brennan or jim comey or obama would be put in jail. he did not live up to any of that. he did not find a deep state conspiracy. he did not charge any high-level officials in the fbi, cia, high-level democratic elected officials. he brought two failed cases, unanimously rejected by 24 jurors against outsiders who were involved in efforts to scrutinize trump/russian leaks who he accused of lying to the fbi, which ironically means he

was framing the fbi as the victim, not the perpetrator of the crime write is the opposite of what bill barr set in motion to do. then he delivers this report which has no new revelations. it is just recycling stuff from his previous cases. the most serious of it was stuff he is actually recycling from the inspector general, michael horowitz's investigation, not from his own. and yet you have this huge, once again a parade of trump and republican-elected officials and fox news folks who it doesn't matter what is in the report, right. you can't even have a conversation about it. it is just a report happened and this proves that, you know, all of these things we were saying for four years were true and it just doesn't, but, you know, this is the conversation and the state of policy and politics in america today and it just doesn't matter. they will just say it is anyway and those of us who actually leave the report are left wondering what they're talking about. >> yeah, it is worse than that, dan goldman, congressman dan

goldman. people that were left just reading the report, i did on the air and i had the investigative reporting from "the new york times" on the table and was able to fact check some of what came out, and that is what is projected on to the facts and the reality of the durham report is spin, left wing spin. we are so far down the rabbit hole that to just sort of stand at sea level and say durham found nothing new, his two prosecutions failed, and the projections and hopes and dreams that trump and his allies had were an absolute dud and a flop is actually viewed as the partisan statement when this is what is actually hyperbole, the spin and the disinformation. let me show you fox's reaction. >> yeah, it is outrageous that this happened. it is arguably worse than watergate when you look at all of the facts. >> it is astonishing to me. it is outrageous that here we are seven years later after they stole four years of a presidency and they tried to undermine and overthrow democracy.

there has been zero reform, zero accountability, zero consequence for the people who attempted this coup. >> what they need to do is appoint a loyalist as fbi director, kind of the way jfk appointed his brother to run the justice department. you either need a loyalist or you need some guy you have so much dirt on that he wouldn't even try anything. >> we are now so far around the circle that they're advocating for corruption. for the record, christopher wray was chris christie's former private defense attorney handpicked by donald trump. now that he hasn't been loyal to donald trump i suppose is the indictment, but he is donald trump's handpicked fbi director. >> yeah, the republicans and if far right are completely spinning off the planet, but this is much worse than just simply he didn't find anything. the reporting that charlie and others did six months ago or

so -- excuse me. really demonstrated that john durham was -- had more from a prosecutor into a political animal. you don't get prosecutors who resign very frequently, especially not under the -- out of side of the trump administration. that is really unusual, especially his number two. you don't get a special counsel going and trying to change an inspector general's report. ultimately, what he found is not only that there was nothing there but it actually justified what the fbi did even though he completely, completely misconstrued the facts on the ground. now, he said that this is a preliminary investigation would have been let mat to start operation crossfire hurricane. let's remember how this started. this didn't start in april of 2016 when the australian

diplomat heard from george papadopolous. he said i got information that this relates to russia. the corroboration that john durham says doesn't exist in the investigative files and intelligence files existed in plain sight and yet he doesn't talk about that. that is a complete app di abdication of his responsibility. the other thing is that he goes on and on about the steele dossier. the steele dossier had nothing to do with the origination of the investigation and it had nothing to do with the mueller report or the numerous prosecutions and convictions brought by special counsel mueller. so what this really is, is it is a political hatchet job by a political animal dressed up in a

prosecutor's clothes, and that is the most dangerous of all because he has a veneer of apoliticism even though he is clearly a political animal and the republicans are off the reservation. nothing that he said is in the report. even republican ben klein said today this was proof that the fbi interfered in the election in support of hillary clinton and against donald trump in 2016. how can that happen if it never went public? nothing in public ever came out about that investigation so how could it actually interfere? this is really, really scary stuff coming from the right wing. >> well, dan goldman, congressman goldman, i want to ask you, with trump as a candidate for office in 2024, you know, the investigation

isn't opened into trump initially. it turns into an investigation also looking at trump after he fires comey and the obstruction of the investigation question is on the table, whether or not doing the work or work that would make vladimir putin happy is also part of a national security question. i mean trump very prominently last week told vladimir putin's lying as someone largely to be a war criminal. he is a candidate for office in 2024 who still has a direct call and answer between vladimir putin. what happens to those questions when you have one of the country's two political parties in government and out immune or unable to look at any questions about trump's affinity for putin. >> let's remember though this didn't even originate as an investigation into trump. it originated as a counterintelligence investigation into russian efforts to interfere in the election. it morphed into an investigation

rather of the trump campaign because evidence materialized that people like paul manafort were giving internal campaign data to a russian intelligence agent who he had worked with. so that is also a very important predicate to this entire conversation, but we have known donald trump's favoritism toward vladimir putin since 2016 and thereafter. we have seen it in helsinki in 2018 when he publicly chose to side with vladimir putin, who has openly expressed his antagonism toward the united states our own intelligence community. this is very much baked in. what i think we all need to be focused on and calling out, and that includes charlie and "the new york times" and other journalists, is we need to be aggressively calling out the misinformation and disinformation that is coming from the right wing and that will unquestionably come from donald trump over the next 18

months as he used this durham report as part of his campaign. it needs to be called out by independent journalists, objective journalists. certainly we will be banging the drum on capitol hill, but this is something that needs to be really aggressively attacked. >> i mean i guess if you step back, congressman, i mean manafort, flynn, stone, gates and papadopolous were all found guilty in the court of law. what is durham saying, that they weren't really guilty of the crimes they confessed, pleaded to or were convicted of? >> i have no idea what confirmation bias he is talking about when you have either guilty pleas or jury verdicts convicting all of these people in connection with the russia investigation and yet you have acquittals essentially across the board in piddly cases that john durham brought. you want to talk about a waste

of time and money, the john durham investigation is an embarrassment and it should go down as one of the biggest abuses of power and waste of money in the department of justice's history. but there's no confirmation bias here. special counsel mueller did an investigation and convicted people. they pled guilty or they were convicted at trial. he established, as did the inspector general, that the initial investigation was opened justifiably. durham doesn't even quibble with that. he says it should have been preliminary, not a full investigation, which is for the majority of lay people outside of the department of justice a distinction without a difference. so it is a real abomination, and the fact that he wastes 300 pages on this, including so much about the steele dossier which the inspector general had also addressed, just goes to show how political this is. it is almost as if the republicans had their talking points written before the report

came out and they ever saw it. they were going to say the same things no matter what was in the report, and it is a real shame we have to deal with this. >> congressman, you sit on the politicization committee. would you like to see john durham called and what would you ask him? >> i would love to see john durham called. i would love to ask john durham about why his prosecutors quit. i would love to see -- ask john durham about his trips to italy with bill barr to chase some phantom information that proved not to be true, but what came out of that was an additional tip about potential fraud by donald trump that, of course, john durham did not investigate. i would love for john durham to come in and ask him about his efforts to convince the independent inspector general to change his report. i would love to ask john durham about the politicization of his

investigation. so, yes, i'm on the weaponization of the federal government subcommittee that jim jordan is the chairman of. let's bring john durham in because he is the number one example of the weaponization of the federal government. >> as a former prosecutor, congressman, let me ask you about barr's embrace of durham and how they traveled together and seem to have engaged in some group think. barr writes this in his memoire. in the spring and early summer of 2019 when john and i discussed the international dimensions of his work we agreed to engage with three companies we felt would be most helpful to the investigation, the uk, australia and italy. i traveled to both italy and the uk to explain durham's investigation and ask for any assistance or information they could provide. i alerted the president, trump, that we would be making these contacts and asked him to mention durham's investigations to the prime ministers of three countries, stressing the importance of their help. is that normal?

>> that is unbelievable to have an attorney general spending so much time on unverified tips with foreign countries, traveling to the foreign countries. doesn't he have better things to do? aren't there real important issues that the department of justice needs to address rather than some fanciful tips he wants to chase down with a special prosecutor whose investigation he should not even be involved with? it is truly a great example, nicolle, of the abuse of power that was littered through the trump cabinet officials trying to do the political bidding of donald trump. the irony, of course, is we have to sit through these subcommittee hearing on the weaponization of the federal

government run by the republicans when the trump administration weaponized the federal government more than any administration in the history of our country. so it is really a gross abuse of power. it is a shame. but i look forward to asking mr. durham all about that -- those conversations and those trips with bill barr. >> do you know if your republican colleagues plan to call him and if anything is scheduled? and if not, would you like to see senate democrats call mr. durham and the prosecutors who fled his three-year probe before the senate judiciary committee? >> i know the request had been made by chairman jordan for mr. durham to appear. i don't know where that stands right now but they've certainly made the request. but, no, i honestly don't think that the senate democrats should be wasting their time with a political hack like john durham. it is a waste of the american people's time. it is a waste of money, and

there are far more important things for the senate judiciary committee to do including to investigate all of the ethical lapse and violations of clarence thomas and the supreme court among many other issues. >> barb, let me pull you in on this. what do you make both of the very plain conclusion? the person, regardless of their political affiliation, should be able to note what both the congressman and charlie and his colleagues have noted, that the report had no new revelations, that it was -- the prosecutions were failed and three senior prosecutors including a decades-long professional partner of mr. durham, norah danahy quit over political and ethical divides with mr. durham himself. >> yes, this report reminds me of a common thread to the trump administration. just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me. and so this investigation

appears to be something that gives legitimacy to the claims that the fbi was involved in some sort of witch hunt so that it can provide talking points to the right, which is what they're doing. but if you look at what is in the report itself there's nothing new. in fact, i think it tells a story of the fbi doing exactly what they should have done. now, maybe they made some missteps along the way. they certainly had some -- peter strzok and lisa paige saying things out of school that were incredibly inappropriate. but when you look at the information they had, it would have been a dereliction of duty not to investigate russia. like so many things in the trump administration it is all about whose side you are on. it is all about us versus them. what this should have been is about an investigation into russia. it is not about, you know, trump or hillary or whoever. it was russia that interfered with our election. now, robert mueller concludes donald trump welcomed the help instead of reporting it to the fbi. but this was an influence

campaign by russia and the fbi did exactly what it should do in investigating these claims. >> congressman, before we let you go i would love to know the status of work that you have been involved in for many months now, and that's george santos. do you think there's any chance that republicans will join democrats or enough of them or in enough numbers to expel him from the house? >> well, we are anticipating that in a few minutes the republicans will move to refer the expulsion resolution to the ethics committee. there is already an ongoing investigation in the ethics committee based on a complaint that congressman ritchie torres and i served on mr. santos and provided to the ethics committee, but, of course, the ethics committee is also going to pause and defer to the department of justice. this is a cop out. this is a way for the republicans to side with george santos and to avoid having an up-or-down vote on whether or not he belongs in congress.

george santos should, of course, get his due process rights in a court of law, but being a -- being a criminal or not is not the defining characteristic of whether someone deserves to be a member of congress. for someone like george santos who has admitted lying to his voters and who has essentially been a serial fraudster in gaining his seat in congress, he no longer belongs here. that's why we ultimately moved to have an up-or-down vote on whether or not he should be expelled from congress for all of his lies and deceit and trickery in order to get a seat here. the republicans are going to move to avoid that up-or-down vote. certainly i will be interested to see what the republicans from new york in particular are going to do because several of them have called for george santos's expulsion. well, they now have an opportunity to vote and to walk

the talk, but it appears as if they are going to support this effort to continue to protect mr. santos and keep him in congress. >> it is just amazing because you can certainly explain to voters back home, a vote to expel or a vote not to. congressman dan goldman, thank you for starting us off on all of this. charlie savage and barbara mcquade, stick with us. when we come back special counsel jack smith appears to be close to a decision about charges in the ex-president's handling of classified documents. a new move today raising eyebrows from a key member of trump's legal team. we will tell you about it. plus, republicans flexing their power at the state level overwhelm's reproductive health care and rights. the latest move comes from the state of north carolina. they eliminate one of the last few places in the south where women can access safe and legal abortions. as the legal fight is intensifying late this afternoon, one that is sure to go to the u.s. supreme court over the medical abortion pill.

we'll tell you about all of those stories and how even reliably blue states are preparing for the worst. later in the program, alarms are beginning to go off about the upcoming election cycle, some saying to expect a, quote, tsunami of disinformation in 2024. how to counter this frightening new reality when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick brate. don't go anywhere today. y. amage? dryness and frizz that keeps coming back, don't go anywhere today. . don't go anywhere today. . don't go anywhere today. e. don't go anywhere today. k. don't go anywhere today. . don't go anywhere today. a. don't go anywhere today. k. don't go anywhere today. where t. e h . guaranteed, or your money back. for hair that looks healthy and stays healthy. if you know, you know it's pantene. ♪♪ when you're a small-business owner,

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against donald trump. top lawyer for the disgraced ex-president says he is quitting trump's legal team. he had been until today a key player on the team representing trump in the doj special counsel's probe in the mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago and trump's self-described custodian of records who testified voluntarily in december about his own search of trump properties that yielded additional classified documents. since it is maga world this story is not singular. it is a pattern. it comes about a month after attorney evan corcoran recused himself from defending donald trump in the documents case after his own testimony. charlie savage and barbara mcquade are still here. barbara, i'm old enough to remember when it was a bombshell when don mcgahn was found to have spent 30 hours with robert mueller sharing not only his notes but his own chief of

staff, sharing everything, turning the west wing inside out for robert mueller. after that it was pretty sensational and eric herschmann became one of the most riveting witnesses in the congressional probe into january 6th and there was a lot of coverage and speculation about whether pat cipollone would or would not testify before the 1/6 select committee. we know there have been so many dominos fall it doesn't register as a huge deal when lawyers become witnesses against donald trump, but it is interesting to watch the movements. this today is someone who became a witness and is now quitting. what could be the reasons or explanations for that, barb? >> well, there could be a number of reasons. it could simply be, you know, people get worn down working for donald trump. that would certainly be understandable. but at least one reason might be that a conflict of interest has arisen. someone can't represent a person if they are also a witness against that person. so it could be quite possibly that he has been cooperating or

testifying even if uncooperatively with the justice department in response to a subpoena about the movement of those documents. he himself ordered a search for those documents, so he certainly has information that the justice department would be interested in. so that would be one important reason that he might be stepping away from his representation of donald trump because he is a witness against him. >> charlie, just from the larger phenomenon of all of these trump lawyers who are multi-tasking, right, they're still working for him, sometimes they move around there are so many cases to work on, so much legal work to be done, but so many of them now have become grand jury witnesses. have you seen or covered anything like that? >> it is a remarkable pattern. the joke you mentioned earlier, make attorneys get attorneys, is a pattern that does not stop with mr. trump. i was amazed that corcoran who you mentioned earlier stayed

representing trump for so long before he finally recused. i would have thought he had to do that months and months before he finally did. it is also the case it is hard to represent trump. he is a very difficult client and he is an example of that. a month ago he sent a letter to congress urging republicans to do a move to take the documents investigation away from the doj and give it to the intelligence department and listed a bunch of defenses suggesting trump had no idea these documents were taken, it was hastily packed in the chaotic last days and trump turns around in the notorious town hall saying, i took the documents, of course i took the documents, completely undercutting the defense laid out in the letter. that's par for the course in this world, and so i'm sure there are a lot of other clients out there somewhat easier to represent. >> and the reality, you know,

charlie, that's these attorneys have attorneys, it does -- i think mcgahn is probably the first but i don't think anyone thought it would become the pattern where a washington hand would navigate an attorney, in that case a government attorney for trump through months and months of high-stakes legal investigations and interviews. we now have almost all of trump's legal team before jack smith, investigators and prosecutors, most of them before the grand jury as well. do you have any sense from you and your colleagues reporting about whether that indicates any stage in the investigation for jack smith? >> i mean the chatter is he is moving. he is going to make a decision soon, but, you know, having -- in the space of like chatter about investigations and sort of people go on tv and make it sound like they know more than they know, i want to put a huge

asterisk to that. a lot is gossip and i don't have solid information that tells me what is going on. let me be honest about that. >> we appreciate that. barb, let me ask you then what sort of milestones we can look back at because i know there are hurdles jack smith had to sort of leap over successfully before he was allowed to pierce the attorney/client privilege. does that tell us anything important? >> well, it does. you know, you are talking about you remember a time when it was so extraordinary that don mcgahn was testifying. there was a time when it was extraordinary to pierce the attorney/client privilege. it is a rare thing but we have seen it happen again and again and again with lawyers representing donald trump. to do that you have to show a judge that it is likely by a prepondance of the evidence that a crime has been committed and these communications should no longer be protected by the privilege. to get to that point you have to be able to show something to the court. that's more than the probable cause necessary to get the

search warrant. it does suggest that the investigation has proposed to a much more mature phase. when i was a prosecutor people used to ask me all the time, when will your case be done and i was the one with all of the information about it, and even i often didn't know the answer to that because every time you talk to somebody you learn about more people you should talk to or every time you look at a document you learn of more documents you might need to look at. i don't know if there's a prediction in sight as to when this will be wrapped up but it does sound like they're knocking down all of the dominos and at some point they will get there. >> and i guess the only reason those questions about timelines are asked is because the political calendar doesn't yield to anything and it is certainly racing ahead. i appreciate both of you. charlie savage, thank you for spending time with us. barb sticks around a little longer for us. up next, republican super majorities using their power to ban abortion in a growing number of states. new reporting on how other states are feeling the ripple effect from the restrictive bans on women's health care.

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have even had to consider in the first place. >> wow. that's the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit over texas's abortion ban, on the danger caused by that state's law as well as the logistical barriers and the dangers of being so far away in a car from a sanctuary state, danger that is about to get even worse for all women living in the south. yesterday the north carolina legislature's gop super majority overriding democratic governor roy cooper's veto to enact a 12-week abortion ban, with south carolina extending its legislative session on voting on a six-week abortion ban. women could be forced to travel thousands of miles in order to receive often, as you heard from amanda, lifesaving medical care. it is not just the south. women living in blue states could soon find access

threatened as the circuit court of appeals right now is hearing arguments is hearing arguments over efforts to ban the most commonly used abortion drug. cautioning with would happen in one state impacts all of us. >> if abortion is not safe and accessible in the whole country it is not really safe in new york either. so i think it is incumbent upon us even though we are a safe haven for abortion to be fighting for abortion access across the united states. the texas decision the judge just made shows that. that, you know, you could get a decision made in another state that has an impact on new york. >> turning our conversations to the former president of planned parenthood, now the co-chair of american bridge. lucky for us barbara mcquade is still with us. and at the table with us, alicia

menendez. cecile, let's start with you about what happened today and programs imminent in south carolina. let's talk about health care in the south for american women today. >> well, it is devastating and i think your map showed it. i was actually speaking with folks in north carolina. they're devastated. of course, women are calling frantic because already north carolina, about a third of the patients they were seeing were from out of state, states including texas, florida, georgia, tennessee. i think it is a little bit misleading too. you know, the reporting has been this is just a 12-week abortion ban but it is much more than that. it would make now anyone coming to get an abortion come 72 hours ahead of time for an in-person visit which, of course, makes it nearly impossible for people out of state. it means medication abortion, you would now have to come for three separate visits. they're now going to require abortion providers to meet some

to-be-determined standard for their facilities. none of this is medically necessary. all of this, all of these restrictions are aimed at folks who have the least access to health care already. just talking to her today, she said, you know, they had arrived at the clinic yesterday to find a woman sleeping in her car who had driven all night from florida. this is not uncommon. it is going to get worse as people lose access in north carolina. >> terrific. a lot of women seeking abortion health care have kids and they leave them to take these journeys. it is unbelievable this is life in america in 2023 for women. >> right. and what this means for the american south, there's also what this means for blue states. so i spend part of money -- part of monday at a health care center in brooklyn, you know, like a lot of health care centers in this country they offer wrap-around services.

they offer food assistance. they will help you get on insurance. one of the services they provide is abortion care. what i heard from them are two things. right now in new york state they have patients who are so confused and so worried that they as new yorkers cannot access abortion care in new york that they're constantly having to assert to their own patients that abortion in a place like new york remains safe, legal and accessible. they're also having to prepare for the possibility that kacsmaryk's ruling is upheld and they're not longer able to offer the gold standard of care which as you know is mifepristone first followed by misoprostol. you can lose misoprostol alone. it is a little less effective. the side effects are prolonged. as the provider i spoke to said, why would you do that? if you could offer the gold standard of care in this country why would you offer anything less? even though it is a small clinic they are doing maybe 300

abortions in a year, they're beginning to stockpile might have misoprostol on their own in case a case of someone from south carolina is showing up on their doorstep. >> that's what was said as well, take one of the things they're doing is where it is still accessible stockpiling mifepristone. let me play some of the interview from monday. >> for you as a provider, what is the difference you have seen pre-roe and post roe? i think a lot of things i have seen is confusion. that's the anti-abortion movement is to confuse people so they won't get the care they need. that's the thing i have seen. even people here in new york unclear if abortion is still legal. people in states where it is banned calling clinics and not realizing abortion is not legal in their states. there's a lot of confusion and not just among patients but even among other physicians, even abortion providers.

you know, it is really we are in a whole new legal landscape that hasn't been tested in this way before. >> that is the point, is so astute. >> that is the point. again, this is a small clinic, but one of the things that she reminded me of is the fact that because you have more women traveling from states that have partial or total bans -- north carolina soon to be among them -- that means that the bigger clinics, the planned parenthoods, now you may call and you may not be able to get an appointment for three weeks, for four weeks. suddenly you are more advanced in your pregnancy. >> right. >> things become more complicated, and it means that small clinics like this that ordinarily have not had to deal with an influx in demand suddenly are getting those appointments from someone who can't even find an appointment slot at a planned parenthood. >> cecile, what is this like for you watching this incredible, you know, planned parenthood doing frankly what it was built to do, helping women in extreme

crisis but the crisis is manufactured by extreme right wing politicians and their policies? >> i mean i am so angry today, i don't even know what to say because this is all politically manufactured. abortion is safe in this country. mifepristone is incredibly safe, but all of this has been manufactured by politicians and by the republican party. as we are talking about north carolina, the state of louisiana, republicans in the state of louisiana refused a rape and incest exception just this week, right. alabama, republicans in alabama are not happy with their abortion ban. they now want to actually make it a felony. they want to actually say that a fertilized egg has all of the rights of a human being. there is no depth to which the republican party will not stoop, and it is -- i think of the

women. you know, we hear the stories of some women like the woman in texas who was just allegedly murdered by her boyfriend because he was angry she had an abortion. think of all of the millions of women we actually don't even hear from, the ones that dr. lockley is talking about, women who don't know how to find out what is legal and how to access the services they need that may be lifesaving. >> i want to -- that story is so disturbing that you are talking about in texas. she traveled to colorado for an abortion and came home after reporting domestic abuse and was shot and killed by her abuser. i have to sneak in a quick break, but i want to pick up your thread, cecile, on the other side. how do we help the women we are not hearing about? that's next. don't go anywhere.

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i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later i still smell fresh. secret works. ohhh yesss. barbara, these are the headlines that americans woke up to. in alabama, there's a bill that alabama would prosecute abortion as murder under a newly introduced bill. jezebel reports that louisiana opts not to clarify that misaaron rodgerss, ectopic pregnancies are exempt from an abortion ban, and donald trump today bragging about, quote, finally killing roe after 50 years. this is front and center in american life if you have a uterus. this is front and center in american politics, whether you want it or not.

seems donald trump wants that fight. maybe he can't read the polls yet. 93% of all americans oppose bans that eliminate the exceptions for life of mother, which is what the louisiana bill does. 90% of americans oppose exceptions for rape and incest, which was what the prosecutions would have happen. i think more people support roe now than did before it was overturned. 83% of all americans think abortion should be safe in all or most instances. where are we heading? >> well, we're in a situation we're in now because of the supreme court. one of the reasons we respect precedent is so we can have certainty and understanding of the law. as we heard the doctor say, people are confused and there is chaos, and that is the predictable result of throwing out 50 years of precedent. we have chaos because in all 50 states they get to decide what they want to do. political i think it seems we may be destined to see an overplay in some state where is as you say the

republican-controlled legislatures by not reflecting the will of the electorate. in michigan, in the most recent election, the roe decision was a huge part of what drove our political process here. the constitutional amendment to permit abortion passed by a wide margin, and on its coattails, democrats for statehouse, the state senate and all the executive spots for the first time in 40 years. so i think that this pain that it is causing to all of these patients for abortion care could have a long-term ripple effect that backfires on republicans. but it's not a good situation, no matter whether you're a democrat or republican, because in the meantime, real people are getting hurt. >> cecile, as you know, we always focus on the people getting hurt today and the next day under these policies. it's also true the politics are

potentially catastrophic for republicans. how do you sort of organize those two truths? >> look, i've said this. i believe that this is -- the dobbs decision and now this sort of cascading series of laws that are being passed and restrictions and as your map just gets painted redder and redder, this is not aging well with the american people. we're hearing about not only the woman in texas, we're hearing about women who have sepsis and are refused care. they're just -- the stories keep going. so i do think politically, of course it was a big issue in michigan, an issue in pennsylvania, an issue in the supreme court race in wisconsin just recently. this is -- it's very clear where the american people are, and the question is can we undo this damage heading into this next cycle of elections. but one of the things you said,

how do we lift up the stories? we need more people talking. we need businesses. we need corporations. we need physicians. we need men. most folks didn't get pregnant on their own. we need more people in this conversation because women are not going to win back our rights on our own. it's going to take a lot more than that. it's why it was so important to have the american medical association and other national groups come out against the mifepristone ban. we need to have a much louder chorus in america. >> the numbers suggest a whole lot of them -- and we don't cover them as much and they don't speak out, but a lot of men oppose these bans as well. >> looking at those states cecile listed, a lot of people might not call themselves pro-choice, but they believe that what their state was trying to do amounted to extreme government over -- >> they voted against the bans. >> also the fact that north carolina republicans are trying

to position this as a moderate ban. it is not. that is why it's important to point out the fact you have to go back three times, 72 hours to meet with the doctor before you get the procedure. you can't call that moderate because if you do, the center begins to shift. >> to be continued. cecile richards, barbara mcquade, elicia, thanks for being at the table. thanks for your great reporting. barb will be elicia's guest this weekend. co-hosts from the "sister-in-laws podcast." don't miss that saturday 6:00 p.m. on msnbc. will joyce's chickens be there? >> people are so happy about it on the twitter. >> on the twitter. i love it. still to come, the dangerous new reality of ai, artificial intelligence, as it is known, and why everyone should be paying close attention. we'll have that conversation and go there next.

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we have seen how algorithmic buy biases can perpetuate discrimination and the lack of transparency can undermine public trust. this is not the future we want. >> if you were listening from home, you might have thought that voice was mine and the words from me. but, in fact, that voice was not mine. the words were not mine. and the audio was an ai voice

cloning software trained on my floor speeches. the remarks were written by chatgpt. when it was asked how i would open this hearing. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. we begin with a question, a weird one, and here it is -- how can you at home or in your car be absolutely 100% certain the host you're looking at right now indeed a real live, breathing person and not some computer-generated creation? i'm not, by the way. i would be taller. just kidding. although that's exactly what an artificial intelligence would say. but how would you know? just a few months ago you might be able to reasonably assert a computer's creation was inherently a little off, the sound could be a bit off. now gap between what is real and what appears real on screen is shrinking by the day thanks to a recent quantum surge in computer

learning from chatgpt to deepfakes, to software that can clone your voice after just five minutes of talking. we are right now hurtling closer and closer potentially to a dystopia where you or i can make it look like anyone is saying anything. let that sink in. this lightning-quick evolution from science fiction to science fact presents a veritable laundry list of very serious concerns and questions for all of us to grapple with. but for our purposes, let's focus on what it could mean for our politics. if you thought russian bots spreading disinformation on twitter to tip the scales in the 2016 election in favor of trump was problematic, you ain't seen nothing yet. you're looking at right now, this is not tom cruise. it's a deepfake posted on tiktok. consider this a sizable portion of the american public has already made clear, they have told us that they are willing and eager to accept verifiably false stuff, false data, false

information. so imagine how quickly a fake video would spread. people are already that resemitif to it. silly or serious, it's exactly what they want to consume, what they're already receptive too. it's not just theory. it's already happening. last month, the rnc released an ad that was 100% ai generated with fake images of what another term for joe biden would look like. here's a bit of it. >> this just in, we can call the 2024 presidential race for joe biden. >> my fellow americans -- >> this morning an emboldened china invades taiwan. >> financial markets are in freefall as 500 regional banks have shuttered their doors. >> border agents were overrun by 80,000 illegals yesterday. >> closing the city of san francisco this morning citing the crime and fentanyl crisis. >> none of it happened.

it was fake. but all this is just the beginning, right? rookie stuff. easy stuff. the rnc did it, for pete's sake. the brookings institution scholar says he expects a, quote, tsunami of disinformation in the 2024 elections, so we better start talking about it and get ready. the dawn of a frightening new era of weaponized disinformation is where we begin the hour. former top state department official rick stengel is here, author of "information wars." hope you've got some answers. and washington investigative correspondent for "the new york times," mark my seth ti is here. molly fost is back and ben collins is here. most of what i know about this i learned on your twitter feed. start us off. where does the conversation specifically about politics start? >> look, i would say first of all, that hearing yesterday was

interesting. but there is sort of an advertising element to what's happening right now with ai where they are trying to make it seem like this is going to be the thing that ends humanity. these very same people a year ago told us we all need nfts and we all need digital avatars. you need to spend a thousand dollars on a donald trump card. right? these are the same people, and they just abandoned that immediately. and right now, where the technology is does not match the panic. i want to bring up a quick story from texas a&m. there was a really specific person at texas a&m who was a combination -- like a cattle farmer plus agricultural teacher. he plugged all of his students' essays into chatgpt and chatgpt says i wrote all of those. he failed the class. they all wrote those papers.

we are currently leaning a little too far on the side of everything is robotic and fake. because of that, the people in our politics who take most advantage of that are the people who don't want to play by the rules, are the people that says when something verifiable comes out, that didn't happen. imagine the tape from october of 2016. imagine that coming out now, how easy it is. you can make it happen. you can make one of those in 15 seconds. that's the worry, not the technology itself, it's the confusion and doubt and how people who have always used that for political advantage, how they'll use it in the future. >> people trying to understand the writers' strike, ai taking over the jobs of our geniuses bringing our favorite shows, we're all at risk. part of my brain says more free time to learn how to bake. but that's besides the point.

to defend anyone feeling the panic, that's where some of it is coming from. the other piece is republicans don't need to perfect anything to do great damage with it. >> right. >> so you're talking about something that may not be perfected, but i don't think that stops any republican operative saying let's deploy. >> the people of the writers' strike are saying you're going to make worse art, the most sanitized, basic stuff, not very written because it's from a robot. human beings draw on previous experiences with ai. that makes sense. the agita is cultural. it's a huge problem we have if we let robots take over this stuff and lay off 10% of the workplace in places assuming copyrighters can just go. that's one big problem. from a political standpoint, we are going to have some horrific deepfake. it will just happen.

the technology is there now, it wasn't a few years ago. lit throw a wrench in the cycle. i think gen-z is ready. kids really understand this stuff. they're on tiktok all day. nothing is true to them. nothing is true and everything is true. we all look to them, we listen to the kids, because they grew up with this stuff, and they don't know anything else. so that's my suggestion for the next couple months. >> you know, the conversation -- i don't know how many peoples' parents called them screaming. we'll need help with political mailers. it is something that has to be put on the table. and i guess another piece of better education. >> yeah. i would say i think that some of these members of the senate were responding to the anxiety that sam altman had when he was testifying. i mean, he is, like, begging this legislative body to regulate ai. you're seeing that a lot from

tech world. now, whether or not that's manipulation, right, because, remember, we've seen that before. tech people wanting to be regulated in order to prevent competition. i don't know. but you definitely saw. i watched that hearing and he's saying i want regulation, we need regulation, please don't do what you did with social media, come in there and help us. so, again, i don't know what his motives are. you know, it's impossible to know. but that was my thought. >> quickly, facebook for ten years said please regulate us. they did not need that. they meant pass two laws so we can abide by those two laws. >> like tobacco, regulate us. we don't have a very impressive recent history of being able to grapple with an injection of disinformation. in 2016 we learned in the mueller investigation, the senate intelligence committee report that russia was very active in 2016.

it had an impact. it seem like you just turbocharged that with new technologies, new ways to do what's been going on for the last three presidential cycles. >> yeah. i think first of all to ben's point, there is a reality that there's a lot of hype and especially in washington when there's a lot of people declaring themselves on experts on something and declaring a threat, you need to -- >> and a televised hearing. perfect storm. >> we haven't been talking about this for more than a couple months. so now everyone is an expert. >> right. >> to that point, if you look at the disruption that the russian cam page did in 2016 to the election, right, to the information about hillary clinton and the election and think about how sort of labor intensive that was, we know from the mueller report, the indictments that the internet agency in russia, you had people sort of manning bot farms. this is people taking polling

shifts and kind of writing in bad english tweets that did have an impact, right. now think about where we are six years later and eight years later for the 2024 election, and it will be, you know, already we can see a future where there will be a much more sophisticated ability by whichever country, not just russia, right, it will be sort of the democratizing effect where any country can get involved. i don't think it's buying into the hype or buying the threat to see that this will have a real impact. it makes it much easier for any nation or private actors to do the sort of disruption and sort of peddle election misinformation. >> and the very thing that makes us who we are, the porous nature of our information flow, the first amendment, frankly, makes us more challenged perhaps than others to push out the bad stuff. i mean, do you see since 2016 any -- there's no water marked

information in america. >> no. maybe just as ben said, there's at least a younger generation that are just more adept in spotting -- >> like calling their kids, the candidates. >> the older generation is hopeless. >> hopeless. that's where it will have potentially a bigger impact. maybe you'll see this generational filter of information or misinformation. so, you know, i think that there's certainly an awareness. you've spoke on the american official who is certainly see that this is coming, and they see this more as the -- you know, it's just over the horizon, but i haven't heard any sort of real answers and therefore we're going to do this. >> not to be the last to the garden party, but trump without the technological advances was all too willing to put macabre manufactured grossly wrong images. we know at least one running in 2024 is first online, like when

a new sneaker comes out, to get whatever is available, whenever they're selling. he's counting on the fact that his supporters are too old to know what's real and what's not. >> he's probably the only one who doesn't benefit because he was essentially doing it already. this is a weapon, like nuclear weapons, that's available to both sides. there was mutually assured destruction, which was the thing that prevented people from doing it. i agree with you. part of the problem in 2016 as i wrote about in my book, those russian trolls couldn't speak eng lir, they had no idiomatic understanding of expressions. now if they had chatgpt 4, they could have been much more effective. to back to what sam altman talks about, you should and could have some regulations leading up to the election, the water marking, it should be a water mark,

things that are bot should be identiied as bots. there's different ways to do that. i would try to hurry that up. i mean, you know, part of the problem is we didn't do that with section 230. we did do it with section 230, it created a whole industry. we didn't change it to give it more liabilities over time. they should the lesson, which is to regular late early and then change as opposed to not doing it at all. >> that's the supply side. the other piece i think that sort of having my nose in the political world is the demand side. there's a real demand for what they want to hear, for -- >> yes. i mean, we talked about it 100 times, confirmation bias. disinformation isn't a supply problem, it's a demand problem. people want it. like everything is false and everything is true to people at the same time. this just accentuates that. in a way, maybe that will equalize everything in a good way and, you know, there are only a few things people believe during campaigns. >> i don't know about that. what do you see sort of heading into another presidential cycle?

it feels like the last one never ended, but you have obviously elon musk has a very different world view than people who have owned that platform in the past. you have this new technology that we don't know whose hands it will fall into and what they'll do with it and if everybody will call their kids to say is this real. what are you worried about heading into 2024? >> i'm worried about a continuation of 2016. i don't know if you remember. in 2016 the russian farm created a hillary clinton sex tape and leaked it to porn sites. but they couldn't make it realistic enough. like they hired two people to do it in real life. they don't have to do that anymore. they can make this stuff instantly. so the worry there's the foreign interference angle and there are candidates who just don't care anymore and are willing to put out this sort of stuff constantly. and you can't put the jeannie pack in the bottle. that's the larger problem.

no matter what regulation comes from this, it's too late. i want to be real with you guys. kids are making art using this stuff. people are genuinely sometimes benefiting people's lives, it's helping people. i saw a people make a video game who did not know how to code a few weeks ago. you can't bring that back in. we need massive, widespread skepticism of information people get on the internet, and generationally, that means classes and getting people genuinely invested in the idea that we've had an information evolution and we're all sort of struggling to come to jesus on this. we went through a thing together all of us. and right now we need to tell everyone just don't take things at face value. >> ben, have you been on the facebook page of anyone over 70? >> look, that is the big problem. i don't know how you rein that

in. >> but we have to figure this out. >> i know. >> we have ten minutes, not ten years. >> i agree. i don't think you can. >> you had water marks. >> have any of you been on the facebook page of anyone over 70? >> of course. >> and you're going to teach them what between now and -- >> i don't think -- i think you have to play the long game here. i don't think this is a thing you can -- if you are fundamentally so deep in it that you're into the qanon stuff, you can't get them out. but we can't give up on the concept of treating this prophylactically. we have to look at the future and say the future of people voting in these elections, the people that are going to live for 50-plus years, not just the next 20, those are the people we have to make sure to realize they are going to be creating laws and they'll be the people who realize how this stuff actually works so we can create good things for it.

i don't think you can do anything in the next five years. >> there's a hot war going on in ukraine with russia. you have one of the two mayor party candidates announcing last week he's neutral between russia and ukraine. i mean, you don't need to manipulate it much. there's the domestic consumption, the foreign consumption. are national security agencies prepared, mark? >> i don't know if they are. they're certainly quite concerned about, you know, the potential, the threat. they're looking at it. it's not like everyone is -- clearly in 2016, people were caught off guard, right, and there was -- you know, people in the obama administration could see what was happening and eventually did something. but, you know, this time they might not even see the warnings, right? unless they're looking. so at least they're sort of focused on it. but in terms of sort of trying to identify the -- there might be also the technologies advanced so much there may be fewer fingerprints, right, for who is behind this.

it was pretty clear in 2016 the russians were behind all this stuff, right. it traced right back to moscow and st. petersburg. it's presumably, and i'm not a text expert by any stretch, it will be such that it will be harder to identify who's behind it, no sort of return address. >> you know where we found them in 2016? twitter did a back-end search and sent a list to congress and me and kevin from the "wall street journal," we called them, we would call people to congress and be, like, just let us know if this is not on the list. that's literally how we found the accounts and worked backwards from there. that's not going to happen we lon musk straight up. we don't know what's going to be foreign interference or not because they're not playing by the rules anymore. it's a completely different environment. if you want hope, look at estonia. estonia, you know, years ago, they are neighbors to russia, right across the hall, and they just have zero tolerance for this because it's life or death. propaganda to them is life or

death. if we view this in the same way they do, it would be like us in new york, like rhode island, we're coming after you messing with your brains until you guys become okay with this. we have to view it in the way you do. it's a hot word. >> that's about national security being tied to propaganda. >> ours is. >> they're watching it but not fortified against it. >> the question is how to fortify yourself against it and what can you do legally, what tools are available to you to fortify? if you're talking about intelligence agencies, there are lines that you can't cross nor should you cross, right? >> right. >> that's what they have to be conscious of. again, even when they see the storm coming and it's sort of unclear how to handle it. >> just feel like here we go again. ahead, more on these big questions. we don't have a lot of answers but we'll keep talking about the storm of ai-generated

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the latest deepfakes aren't so much about looks but sound. see this speech by leonardo dicaprio? >> i stand before you not as an

expert. >> a voice recognition company generated the voice of joe rogan, steve jobs -- >> and billions of others around the world -- >> and robert downey junior. >> as an actor, i pretend for a living. >> cloning someone's voice is available to anyone with an internet connection. >> i'm hungry. big boy, get some chicken nuggets. >> rick, mark, molly with us. joining our conversation, maybe with some answers, jacob ward. so nice to get to talk to you, not on a breaking story but something we're trying to wrap our brains around. jump in on this. where are we? i know we can't put any genies back in the bottle, but not everybody is a good-faith actor. what's your degree of concern

injecting ai at this moment? >> my concern is extremely high, but i don't agree we can't put it back in the bottle. all of you would be smoking cigarettes right now if it weren't for the actions of regulators and trial lawyers and everybody else. we are an open and democratic society who has the potential to do so. this is coders making software. obviously, yes, it's moving faster than we have ever seen before. but you're also seeing smart people figuing out how to push back on some of these things. the idea of deepfakes, last month lawyers for elon musk tried to argue that he shouldn't have to give a deposition because he's such a famous person that his past statements might in fact just be deepfakes. it's one of those arguments we've all been waiting for, people will say they'll use deepfakes not to just fake real

stuff but that fake stuff is real. a judge said that's ridiculous, the idea you can hide behind what you said in public because you're fay mos and the potential for deepfakes is not right. she ordered him to give a three-hour deposition. i think we'll see this stuff move way slower than the release dates of these products, but i think that stuff will catch up. i think it's really important all of us stop falling for this illusion, which is what the tech industry is trying to sell, it's inevitable, no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. they love the say that. that was the theme of altman's testimony. we should think about how we could control this stuff in the way other countries are. >> and what's the best-case scenario for having that proactive, we're still in the driver's seat posture toward our politics? >> well, i mean, i was just looking at the package you showed, rolling across all the websites that are openly advertising what it is that they

do, right, that they create these deep-fake voice algorithms. all of that in china right now would fall under a draft regulation that they've just put out that makes anyone who makes that kind of technology culpable if anyone goes on to use that technology to do something bad. now, that's pretty draconian, and there are a bunch of other draconian measures china is seeking to impose. we may not want to replicate those. but this idea we'll fall behind other countries if we enact regulation, slow competition down, none of that seems to be true. the eu and china are moving really fast. we're one of the only countries, one of the only major industrialized economies that is not acting to regulate this stuff fast. so to me i just think rather than saying oh, it's too complicated, we can't figure it out, i think we can. i was talk the dire to an ai ceo

and he was saying i don't get it. if i make 10,000 muffins and one person gets food poisoning, am i supposed to stop making muffins? there was a long, awkward pause, and i said, yeah, that's exactly what you're supposed to be doing, we pull muffins off the shelf when that happens. are we going to regulate this the way we regular late food or guns? the idea we're not going to do it here doesn't make sense to me. >> speech is regulated. there's been a high-profile defamation case, din i don't know and fox news. >> it seems like transparency is really the answer here, and that's what they're focused on in europe, too, and that has been a real problem. sam altman has been less than excited about transparency, and i think that would solve some of your problems. >> i want to say, jake is right and i love him and he's

wonderful and he's the greatest. but what if there was one political party who was, like, what is poison really? does killing one in every ten, was it the poison? maybe people are allergic to muffins. that's what one political party is doing right now because they need poisonous muffins. that's part of the deal. >> jake, you can respond to the poisonous muffins. >> ben is absolutely right. we have tremendous respect for one another, but i think it's true that that is absolutely right, but as you guys are also pointing out, we don't have data transparency and data laws in this country. >> right. >> until we get serious about letting independent academics get inside these places and look at them as hard as ben and others have done, it will be difficult to refute a claim like that. we're handicapping ourselves in that case. we've all learned a huge amount from the social media era. i hope regulators have and i hope they don't fall for the idea that this is too complicated to understand, we

shouldn't regulate it because it will slow us down. those narratives serve only the interest of people who make this technology, and we've all learned better in the last 15 years. >> just to piggyback on that, i'm going to sound pollyannish here, the greatest fact-checking technology in human history. part of the problem with large language models is they haven't had copyrighted material on them. that has to be solved. there have to be copyrights. the you put the entire library of congress in a large language model and anything you put in you say check it against something that is real data, is truth, the factual, it's historical, we could do that all the time. >> i love your idealism. i'm thinking about the trump campaign loading everything nick fuentes has said into a model and pushing it out. >> like when you go into -- they're called loms, large language models, they're selling

them off as part of it. they have to train this against something, right? if you're training against reddit, you'll get people into ska music and 2014 were in cells and have recently grown up and become adult ps. >> the problem is they're being trained on things that are not verifiable, reddit, internet. >> yes. >> if it was the library of congress, the british museum, every constitutional law case, i mean, those are things that you can set against as a standard. right now they don't have those as a standard. part of the reason is they haven't figured out copyright. >> you have to create an incentive structure. that's why it comes back to a national security question for the united states of america. i wonder, mark, you look at threats to our country from points abroad. do you get the sense that people are looking at this on the same level as a potential threat from within? >> certainly. i mean, certainly the european model has been discussed and the european countries and governments are looking at this differently.

there's a lot of foreign actors looking at the potential to exploit this. >> right. >> you know, not only for foreign purposes but for domestic purpose against their own -- for the domestic audience to manipulate their own populations, right. there's any number of united airlineses -- uses of this that these governments can weaponize and utilize. this is amazing some who have been covering and this writing about this for a long time, but for the population in the u.s., it's been a couple months. we were talking about robots taking over the world. there have been others who have been thinking about this for a little while and are thinking about the good and bad ways to use it. >> all right. just getting started here, right? i mean, next time i'll send my avatar. jade ward, thank you for jumping in and elevating our conversation and injecting some hope. you and rick will stand on an i loond as the optimists.

>> mark, ben, thank you for all of your expertise. molly and rick are going to stick around a little long we are us. ahead for us, it was a big night for some democratic candidates in elections around the country and a bad night for those still pushing the big lie. we told you about it earlier in the week, the election denial tax. ♪ did you know 80% of women are struggling with hair damage? dryness and frizz that keeps coming back, could be damaged hair that can't retain moisture. you need pantene's miracle rescue deep conditioner. it's filled with pro-vitamins to help hair lock in moisture, visibly repairing six months of damage in just one use, with no weigh-down. guaranteed, or your money back. for hair that looks healthy and stays healthy. if you know, you know it's pantene.

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midterms, seeing it now, we covered it yesterday, running an election denialism and limiting of totally cutting off access to abortion health care is a giant loser electorally for republicans and the republican party, and voters know it. voters in several states went to the polls yesterday. the trend has continued. in pennsylvania, democrats maintain the majority in the statehouse by winning a special election, giving first-term governor josh shapiro more control to push his agenda, which plans to take on abortion, gun rights and election information. and down in florida, democrats beat desantis. the first female mayor in the city's history. and in kentucky, that state's republican secretary of state, michael adams, who helped expand voting rights successfully, working with the democratic governor, fought off two

challengers who ran alleging their had been fraud in the 2020 election. further making the point that the big lie is a big drag, a big tax for voters. political strategist matt dowd and "new york times" columnist charles low is here. rick and molly still at the table. charles, what do you think? >> well, you know, i'm trying to back up a little bit and think about what's happening to the country, you know, that we're kind of moving in two separate directions. we're having a civil war itself, having it as a policy fracture that part of the country is being very aggressively in a reaggressive direction, and the other part of the country is moving in a very progressive direction, and that this is creating two very different lived experiences for americans all together, and each one of

these state -- whether you consider it a victory or a fallback moved that needle further apart from one unified country. >> yeah. i mean, matt, it is the essence of what we talk about, right. we have -- i call it earth one and earth two, but even events, what happens in a day is different on earth one than on earth two. with that context provided by charles, are there any lessons or trends or signs that we can take from the results last night? >> obviously, we all agree with this. throughout our history, a third of the country hasn't wanted change that has happened and changed our country. a third of the country was for the monarchy in revolution and war. a third of the country was for slavery and against civil rights and against women getting the

right to vote. we've had this third, third, third along the way to stop whatever change. but last night i think it shows in my view that, if done right with the right candidates and the right message and the right coalition, that you can capture a huge part of that 70% or 65% of the vote and get the country to a better place one city, one county, one state at a time. that's i think for all of us that stay hopeful and optimistic even though we're realistic is the mayor's race to me in jacksonville is a perfect capture of that. she won because she was running against somebody who decided to become a chamber of commerce republican deciding to become maga, and she ran a campaign aimed at generating enthusiasm among democrats and appealing to independents. that's how she won the mayor's race. first woman ever elected mayor of jacksonville. this now we see the top 15 or 20

cities in america are all for the first time ever, for the first time ever, governed by a democrat in this country. so, while understanding the awfulness that we see every day and the split that goes on in the country every day, there is a coalition that can be built slowly and assuredly. and the other thing i think we can tell about last night is ron desantis' main argument for being president and beating donald trump is that he's a winner and donald trump is a loser. that seems to be his main argument. well, yesterday he supported two candidates that lost, one for mayor of jacksonville and the other his candidate in kentucky for race for governor finished third, kelly kraft finished third. his honor i'm a winner keeps getting undermined by his losses around the country. >> you get to choose. kentucky or jacksonville? >> kentucky because it's an interesting race and i also think you have a situation there where a republican did the right

thing and worked with the democrat to help voters, again, a -- >> expand voting. >> right. and voters rewarded him. and we see so many republicans, especially maga republicans, refusing to work with democrats. i mean, a great example is the debt ceiling, stuff that's going on right now. you know, afraid of primary challengers. here's a ruby red state where if you had two primary challengers and the guy who expanded voting rights actually won and the maga candidates didn't win. i actually think that there is a little bit of a shift and we're seeing that and, you know -- i mean, we're seeing that everywhere. so i think it's a little bit encouraging. >> rick, are you encouraged? >> i am a little encouraged. since matt did a whole historical transition of the country going back to colonial times including civil rights, the generalization i would make is candidates who give people more agency to control their lives do better than those who don't. our democracy is about letting

people make their own decisions. if you're an election denialist, you're saying the vote doesn't matter, you're not allowing women to control their own body. people are saying government can work, you can work, you can function, i think that will be the tide that triumphs. >> here's hoping. we have to squeeze in a break. be right back. when you really need to sleep. you reach for the really good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil.

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are back with us. matt dowd, let's talk about abortion. we cover it as a health care crisis for american women. it is also a political catastrophe for republicans. that was born out in pennsylvania. let me read this from the associated press. "pennsylvania's special election was the most important race for abortion. the result could also affect a proposed constitutional amendment. we're one house floor vote away from putting the voters as a referendum. joe biden endorsed boyd on monday calling her an experienced public servant who will protect a woman's right to make her own health care decisions, stand up for gun safety laws and expand access to voting rights." your thoughts about that contest. >> i think it won. you can look at the context. it was a suburban part of philadelphia, which has been trending mainly because of these issues like abortion and women's reproductive freedom, moving towards the republicans than the democrats, and this is another sign, even though it was a

democratic seat, it's a sign those suburbs in that area -- i want to go back to something rick said which i think is really important in this. the best way to succeed on this and preserve or recapture women's reproductive freedom is broadening this issue and all o reproductive freedom is broadening this issue and all the issues in a bigger context. this had a much bigger context, even how crazily important it is, it's a context about freedom and democracy in america, and i think the democrats would be really, really smart -- and biden started this way in his video, but they need to return to it every day. if you're talking about abortion, election denialism, or anything, why we want policies, guns. if you believe in freshman of america and you believe in the fundamentals of our democracy and if you believe in perfecting the union we have, this is the path to go. and i think that's the important argument to make in a broad, big

way on this, so everybody who's for that, who's progressive and for that and wants to move the country forward, can feel like they have a part of that, and that to me is the way the democrats continue to preserve. >> charles, since you started us big and elevated the conversation, i'll ask you to end it the same way. do you think democrats and the country can sustain that conversation through the next election? >> well, it's operating on two different levels. there is the national level, where we're talking about preserving the presidency, which is a big part of dealing with the roe v. wade decision because you eventually have to put new justices on the court if nobody's going to expand the court. then there's the state level. we shouldn't reduce it to suburban or to look at jacksonville as an isolated thing. we're still talking about blue

cities and blue states moving in one direction, or blue cities even in some red states holding fast to some democrats. but the entire exurbes moving in a whole different direction. that underscoring how treacherous a condition we are in, because it is now a state by state battle to figure out what the laws are going to be and that those laws will be a mishmash for laws of women across the country. a woman may be pregnant in one state, leave to another state, and have a whole different set of medical regulations on her body. that is just not sustainable and it is not encouraging, even if it helps democrats on the national stage hold some areas that would otherwise have flipped on the presidential scale.

>> thank you so much for spending time with us today. this conversation is to be continued. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be ri. it feels like it's barely there. look at how much it holds, and it still stays thin! i've looked at myself in the mirror and i can't see it at all! that's the protection we deserve!

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> i have a question. it's not even about the news. we have tom hanks tonight. do you have a favorite tom hanks movie. >> it's a tie between "big" and "splash." >> "big" about the inner child in all of us. >> i could quote it butou