across the networks of nbc news, it's clear i'm completely tying tied, so i'm going to leave it there. thanks for staying up late. us see you at the end of tomorrow. tomorrow >> remember back in august of last, year when the fbi search trump's mar-a-lago home looking for classified documents? documents they believe the

former president had knowingly stashed away? trump complained very loudly and very publicly about that raid. he also fundraised off of it and really, he took every opportunity to point out what a victim he was for a deep state which hunt. but his first real defense, his first real justification for why he kept all those documents in the first place, that came in the form of a statement said exclusively to fox news, quote, president trump had a standing order the documentary from the oval office and taken into the residence were deemed to be cool declassify the open moment he met them. they idea that a paper pushing delegate delegated by the president needs to approve the declassification, is absurd. so that was trump's defense. he had a standing order to declassify all of these documents. whatever a standing declassification order is. cool.

except nobody bought it. cnn interviewed 18 former officials from trump's own administration who called this explanation ludicrous and ridiculous and a complete fiction. john kelly, who as you recall, was trump's chief of staff, he says, nothing approaching an order that foolish was ever given, and i can't imagine anyone that worked at the white house after meet that would have simply shrugged their shoulders and allowed that order to go forward. okay. a few weeks later, trump sat down with an interview with sean hannity and tried out a new defense. >> you have set on to social and number of times, he's the declassify -- >> i did declassify, yes. >> is there a process, what was your process to declassify? >> it doesn't have to be a process, as i understand it. different people say different things, but as i understand, it does not have to be -- if you're the president of the u.s., you could be classify by

saying it's the classified, even by thinking about it. >> there does not need to be a process, i can declassify it by when, when i think it's declassified, when i say it's the classified, is, proof. national security experts everywhere found this ridiculous, but trump stuck with the defense. this is what he said at a town hall last week. >> i was there and took what i took, and it gets the classified. let me tell you, i have the absolute right to do whatever i want with them. i have the right. >> tonight, we are learning that trump knew those claims about mental or verbal declassification were bogus, because he was told so. in writing, repeatedly, while he was in office. according to cnn, the national archives is prepared to give special counsel jack smith 16 records which showed trump at his top advisors had knowledge of the correct declassification process while he was president, according to multiple sources. nbc news has not independently verified that report, but think about this for a moment.

this is not someone telling trump after the mar-a-lago raid, mister president, you can't just declassified records by thinking about them as declassified. this is trump being told the rules of the road, while in office, as he was allegedly mentally and verbally declassifying stuff or whatever it is he thought he was doing. which then begs the question, what is in the 16 records, exactly? cnn obtained a letter that was sent yesterday from the national archives to trump laying it all out. it reads, the 16 records in question include communications involving close presidential advisers, some of them directed to you personally, concerning whether, why or how he should declassify certain classified records. apparently, during the trump presidency, trump's advisers were repeatedly reminding trump

of the official process for how to declassify things, which totally makes sense because trump really like sharing classified information when he was in office. remember the time that president trump casually revealed highly classified information to the russian foreign minister during a white house meeting? or the time he tweeted out a highly classified image from a u.s. by satellite? or the time that he had sensitive discussions about north korea with the japanese prime minister in front of a crowd of onlookers at mar-a-lago, remember all that? in retrospect, it should not be all that surprising that trump was being repeatedly pulled official declassification process is supposed to work. and now, those warnings, they 16 records could become a key part of special counsel jack smith's case against former president trump. according to cnn, the 16 presidential records may provide critical evidence establishing the former president's awareness and to declassification process, a key part of the criminal investigation into trump's mishandling of classified documents. records may also provide insight into trump's intent and

whether he willfully disregarded what he knew to be clearly establish protocols. so these records seem fairly important, which is why the doj apparently subpoenaed them earlier this year. since then, trump's legal team has done everything in its power to make sure that these 16 documents don't see the light of day, although for the record, trump's legal team says the fight is really a strategic fight about constitutional and presidential protections rather than keeping evidence from the special counsel. which is, okay -- we now know that yesterday, the archives sent the trump team a letter that basically said, sorry, the 16 records are underway to jack smith, which is a problematic development for trump and his defense team. it comes at a time when their legal problems are mounting. yesterday, a top lawyer from trump's mar-a-lago legal defense team announced that he would be stepping down, that he claims his departure as nothing to do with the underlying case.

joining us now is national security lawyer mark zaid and charlie savage, washington correspondent for the new york times. thank you both for joining me. mark, let me start with you. in terms of the legal implications of all of this, what does trump's awareness mean in terms of the eyes of the law, as far as his -- what he knew about the declassification process and what he was saying and doing? >> it's very significant, alex, because it goes to a state of mind, which is what criminal cases are generally about. this has never been a strict mishandling of national defense information, which is what the espionage act actually uses by way of language, because as i saw in the near post, every president since reagan, and i dare say before that, have mishandled classified information. it is fairly routine. i see all the time, in my cases.

what is at issue here is that as you reported and cnn had reported, that trump and his inner circle were told how to properly classified and these classified information. i said even further, because i independently verified it, that they were instructed in the days and weeks before leaving the white house for the transition on how to pack up the documents, so as not to take classified formation. this really goes further to the obstruction issues, and everything that we're starting to see, if true, but we have to listen to the media that trump not only mishandled the information but also sought to hide from the u.s. government and obstructed the investigation by deliberately acting on the, as well as giving instructions to others possibly, even lawyers, as to where the move the documents around mar-a-lago.

>> just a follow-up on that, mark, it's the obstruction charge, right? this is all obstruction or what it sounds like in full flower at many stages of the game, at many stagesof this legal saga, trump is acting as a road block, effectively, for what is to be done correctly by the letter of the law, is that right? >> there is no doubt, in my mind, that if once contacted by the national archives, when it was learned that documents were missing at the white house, original classified records, that if they had, even after a period of weeks, maybe months, said, we thought we could take them, for whatever reason, here they are back. maybe we will fight with you about it but here are the documents so you can protect them, if that had been, we would not be talking about anything regarding this today. instead, he obstructed for 18 months, and that required the search of his promises, as allowed by a federal magistrate judge. that is all the difference in the world. this is not a pence case.

this is not a biden case, where they both mishandled classified records. that is normal. what is not normal is how trump and his supporters and allies have handled this case. >> charlie, i am struck by the fact that as of last week, president trump was still in mounting this defense, i can declassify things just by saying the declassified and thanking their declassified, knowing that his legal team had received this subpoena and we're fighting it in court, effectively fighting to make sure that the proof that trump knew compared to what he was saying publicly come out, that jack smith would be handling the records. does that surprise you? >> i would like to say something broader in this base that i think would be helpful because i think this is a complicated topic. your introduction has comflated the mystical i can take ossified documents by thinking it and the prospect that the president could be classified documents just by saying it, without following normal procedures. i think there is an open

question that -- there is a strong argument that a president can by speaking it, so that everyone hears it, and it is communicated to the bureaucracy, the classified document without going through normal procedures. it's not been tested, but these procedures are set up by executive order. it is the presidents constitutional authority, so there are arguments over can a president by an executive order a violation? it has not been tested, but there is a coherent argument that a president could do that if spoken. one of the big fights here is he says he understands the order with something communicated directive, is that no one heard it, apparently it was made up as the first stab at a defense here. but if he had something like that, and there were a piece of paper, even if it was crazy to have a system like that, he would be on much stronger grounds. whereas, i think it and it's the classified, but no one knows i've done the, is

incoherent interms of how the system works. it's all about the system which the government protects information, closely hot, carries it in special packages, put it on special computers, popped up in special rooms. if no one knows it's been because of it, they will continue to stream it as closely. this could connect to something else that mark was saying which is putting aside the obstruction issue, which essentially, i agree, that the espionage act, which is the one about mishandling national defence information, does not speak to whether information is classified or not, because it was an accident or one, there was no classified information system in. it does not matter, by the words of the law, whether something was technically still classified or not, whether it was marked top secret or declassified. it just needs to be information about the national defense that could hurt the u. s. or any of our adversary and being closely

held by the us government. even if trump magic he said that these at these classified, and we could have this esoteric argument about whether that counts are not, it does not matter for the purpose of the appease knots act because the government is still keeping a closely held, which is what has been necessary for the proof of the element for the criminal defense. >> respectfully, i would defer to what john kelly said, and on its face, dismissed the notion -- as patently absurd. it was never articulated. this is very much a confection of trump's own invention. i would not get into that legal aspects of it, but there was no proof that he had declassified any of these and or had -- i am not a legal scholar, but it certainly seems like shaky ground. no need to litigate that right now, charlie. i will go to you, mark, in terms of what the implications are for the broader investigation, as it stands into mar-a-lago and the case of jack smith is building. we know now that there is this piece of it. we know that there are key

players, that they have broken attorney-client privilege on the case, there are a number of fronts where jack smith has had some significant wins, and i wonder, what you make of trump's exposure at present? >> sure, and i thought his participation in the town last week, and this has been said so many times, i am sure, on your broadcast, as well, what's great for him politically to his base, but his lawyers must have been just shaking their head with their hands over it because the things he said are going to come back to haunt him before jack smith i agree a lot with what charlie was saying. it's a legal issue about whether the mental aspect of declassification could occur, but there is no process. i represented two of his secretaries of defense and his national security adviser, and there is no one other than kash patel who was at one point with the house intelligence committee, with kevin newman as

chair and chief of staff at the defense department, he came forward and said, i knew it was a standing order, and he was pulled before the grand jury. we have not yet heard what in fact he said, and he has not come back on air anywhere to say or provide any proof that this existed. but trump has some very significant legal exposure, and it may be unfortunately politically that the biden-pence's timing, bad timing of having mishandled national defense information, may cause some hesitation of the attorney general to pursue certain charges, but if everything is as bad as we are hearing it to be, with respect to obstruction, then they are looking to be some significant serious criminal charges coming. i would imagine we are talking weeks rather than months at this point. >> wow, that is breaking news,

mark. mark, thank you, charlie, thank you. we appreciate your time. we have more this evening including the long-awaited durham investigation, kind of a nothing burger but republicans are calling for democrats to be expelled from congress over it. democrats like congressman adam schiff, who joins me coming up. and how did north carolina republicans managed to overturn the will of the people when it comes to abortion? we will talk to the states democratic governor roy cooper about how it happened and whether republicans may pay a price. identical twins bethany and stephanie both struggled with cpap for their sleep apnea. but stephanie got inspire, an implanted device that works inside the body. there's no reason to keep struggling. inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com.

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personal decision. it should not be a political debate. my womb and my uterus is not up for your political grab. >> that was north carolina state representative trisha cotham back in 2015, sharing the story of her abortion in front of the north carolina state legislature. this is what happened and that same room yesterday. >> the house has overridden the governor's veto, and the bill becomes law, notwithstanding the governor's objections, so that it be codified. [crowd chanting] >> the protesters there are

chanting, shame, shame, shame. and they are chanting that because yesterday, the north carolina state house voted to override the veto a democratic governor roy cooper and forced a 12-week abortion ban into law. part of what makes the legislature's move so incredible here is that it came down to just one vote, it came down to a stunning about face by north carolina state representative trisha cotham. last year, less than 12 months ago, trisha cotham run as a democrat. here is her campaign website. it is, i kid you not, democrat trisha cotham torque. caught the run her race months ago as a democrat. she beat her republican opponent by a whopping 19% of the vote. this is not a close one or nail biter. her constituents wanted a democrat representing them.

and then last month, trisha cotham switched parties. she said she had been bullied by other democrats, and that they pushed her out. now, we do not know enough to confirm or deny those claims, but we do know in doing the, trisha cotham give republicans a supermajority, a supermajority that would ensure that republicans were veto proof, so trisha caught them, who ran as a democrat become the deciding vote to override the governor's veto and put a 12-week abortion ban into law. as wild as tricia cotham's about-face is, what is more concerning here is that republicans were even close to a supermajority at all. just this month, the group, california forward, carolina forward, put on a specific 12 -week ban, 54% of likely voters oppose a 12-week abortion ban, only 40% supported it. so how did this all come down to trisha cotham's one vote? how did republicans have enough votes did not just pass testing but to override governor roy cooper's veto? how is the will of the people so far away from the work of the legislature? joining us now is north carolina governor roy cooper,

governor, thank you for being here tonight. i'll just get right to it, do you think republicans, given the polling and numbers, and trump's support for the abortion ban, the take republicans will pay a price for their actions yesterday? >> yes, they will. it's pretty clear that partisan gerrymandering on steroids cost us today, because the majority of north carolinians did not want right-wing politicians in exam rooms with doctors and women. all we needed was one vote. people are angry. women feel slapped in the face with this bill that came at them so fast, and every single republican, even those who promised to protect women's reproductive freedom, those republicans in swing districts, every one of them voted for this ban, and this shows us

that republicans are unified in their assault on women's reproductive freedom. now, they tried to do this fast, alex. they passed this law in 42 hours. took them 42 hours to turn the clock back 50 years, allowed no amendments, no public input and ran it through. i have ten days to veto it, we want to cross the state, we held forums, we held a rally, people rose up and said, we're not going to take this but as soon as i vetoed it and handed it back to them, the first legislative day, they overrode the veto. all we needed was one republican to stand up, and they did not do. they tried to do it so fast, they did not want to lay a fire under democrats and

independents. guess what, to date. that fire is blazing, and you are going to see people all over north carolina come to the polls and work to make sure that we break the supermajority in 2024, to make sure we elect the democratic governor, because i am term limited and can only serve a year and a half more, and to make sure that we take this to president biden. i believe we can. >> it feels decided the undemocratic, the actual bill itself, but the way in which it was passed. i want to talk about something you mentioned, the gerrymandering that has given the republicans the super majority. you know for years, north carolina republicans have been trying to gerrymander the state. i believe it was last month and north carolina's state supreme court that effectively ruled in their favor, so they have to greenlight to do this to and even more extreme, it sounds like, is that right? >> last year, we had a supreme court that was democratic, and it really should not have courts running partisan races, and this legislature turned everything bipartisan again.

but the democratic supreme court, it was a close vote on the court, but what it did was rule that partisan gerrymandering was unconstitutional in north carolina. with fair maps, we sent seven democrats and republicans the congress, showing that north carolina is a truly 50/50 purple state. but republicans won in 2022. we lost ground in the state legislature, that's why it came down to one vote, and the supreme court reversed itself, so they are now busily drawing maps. for the last four years, i've had a veto, enough democrats to sustain my veto. we've been able to hold off bad abortion bans and discrimination and attacks on voting rights. but now, we are one vote short in both the house and senate. we will work to bring republicans along on issues. we were able to get a bipartisan agreement to expand

medicaid in north carolina. just a few months ago, we are able to get a bipartisan agreement on clean energy. those are things that we will continue to work on, but make no mistake, north carolina democrats are going to be ready in 2024, and even with gerrymandered districts, we'll put at the top of the list, making sure that we have enough democrats elected to make sure that we can sustain a veto, with we hope to be a newly elected governor to take office in 2025. that is critically important. we democrats need to pay more attention to governors'races and state legislative races. your zip code should not determine your constitutional right, but that is what the u. s. supreme court has done by overturning roe v. wade. the battles have moved to state capitals and legislatures. i was chairman of the democratic governors association last year, and we

were able to end up with plus two democratic governors in crucial states like wisconsin and michigan and arizona and pennsylvania we were able to elect democratic governors, and that is going to be important, as we approach 2024, particularly in protecting democracy and protecting people from these terrible laws that maga republicans now clearly have control of their party. we know where they're going bad legislation. it's more important than ever for people to vote and to make sure that they vote all up and on the ballot because every single election is important. >> governor, why do you think republicans do this on abortion, in particular? >> i think, really, gerrymandered districts have something to do with it because i think you see republicans in these red districts only worry about primary opposition, and they look at it politically, so they get as far to the right as they possibly can. this is what we need independent redistricting commissions in every state. it's very difficult to re-district in a fair way, but

you can do it, and north carolina, they have taken this to a technologically diabolical extreme. they can go house by house. we have seen them draw congressional districts to have ended up 10 to 4, and they said the only reason it was 10 to 4 because they could not figure out a way to make it 11 to 3. that's the extreme that they go to. i think that affects the kind of legislation that they consider. all of them are following donald trump too, so clearly, you have a party that has lost its way or other they found their way, and we know that democrats and independents across north carolina and across this country have to come out and be ready in 2024 to fight for our democracy, to fight for women's reproductive freedom, to fight for public education, health care, all these things that we know there are so critical. >> we know that abortion is one

of the issues that gets democrats and independents out. we shall see. governor cooper, thank you for your time tonight. >> thanks a lot, alex. >> when we come back, the durham report. remember that? it was supposed to be a bombshell, and republicans still want somebody to face punishment. looks like they pick a democratic congressman adam shift. that's coming up. plus, we'll take a look at the ties between supreme court justice clarence thomas, his billionaire benefactor harlan crow, and a judge who will be deciding a major case on abortion. that is next. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question? - are you a certified financial planner™? - yes. i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. find your cfp® professional at letsmakeaplan.org. hey bud. wow. what's all this?

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painting. it has become iconic, on the level of dogs playing poker. everybody has a copy. it's a depiction of republican megadonor harlan crow and his close relationship with supreme court justice clarence thomas, as well as a few other friends. the same clarence thomas who accepted a lot of nice things from harlan crow, which has now piqued the interest of congress. there are thousands of dollars in luxury travel, the purpose purchase of three thomas owned properties and state georgia, private school tuition for one of thompson schools relatives. propublica has unveiled a world of gifts that crow has given to his supreme court justice friend clarence thomas. but there is another layer. here this is a photo of justice thomas swearing in a judge on the fifth circuit court of a feels, a judge named james hole.

he is a trump appointee who also clerked for clarence thomas. that room they are all standing in, that is a private library in the home of harlan crow. according to maura porting from propublica, flight record suggests that harlan crow perhaps even flew justice clarence thomas into the swearing in on harlan grows private jet. but who is the judge here who is getting sworn in? he's not a supreme court judges. judge ho is one of the series circuit court judges who will decide whether or not mifepristone will main accessible in this country, at least until the supreme court weighs in. and if you like an understanding of which way judge ho might be leaning on this matter, listen to the question he asked during a hearing today is the defense tried to ask why the fda expedited its approval of mifepristone. >> so in the preamble to the regulation -- >> on mother's day. we're celebrating illness? >> no, your honor. >> judge ho has called abortion

immoral tragedy. his downplayed judge andrew kaz merrick sexes before the senate, and he is defended justice thomas's acceptance of gifts from harlan crow, the guy who hosted judge ho's swearing. in today's senate judiciary committee held a hearing about justice thomas's acceptance of all these nice things, so we have a lot to talk. about joining us is dolly lithwick, senior editor for the slate. thank you for being here tonight. >> good to be with you. what happened in this judiciary subcommittee hearing today? >> it was fairly amazing, because you had a judge, now senior judge, who was a reagan appointee who worked for all sorts of conservative causes offense into the come forward and say i was upset and stressed out about the failure to disclose and the weirdness of clarence thomas's both gifting situation and disclosures in 2012.

a >> long time ago. >> iran's up the flagpole and got nowhere with the judicial conference, which is the governing cobb body of the judiciary. he essentially said, they say to him no, nothing to see here. and so he, after much anguish, alex, comes forward and says, i don't love doing this. this doesn't feel right to me. but the reason we have both statutes that govern what judges disclose, and a judicial conference, which sets the rules, is so we don't get in situations where all this stuff comes out. the judiciary looks terrible in they say nothing was done. i try to do something. >> it feels like, by virtue of having this person, this senior judge, explain his moral anguish over clarence thomas's situation, the fact that this is happening at a subcommittee of the senate judiciary committee and the fact that i believe the senate finance committee, ron wyden, sent harlan crow a letter today asking for detailed lists and

costs of the flights in the yacht trips and the three georgia properties that crow bought from clearance thomas, it feels like there might actually be some oversight and accountability here, or am i being overly optimistic? >> there was a great accidental self own where harlan crow seems to be saying that there is a separation of powers reason that he doesn't have to disclose what he knows. and so in a weird sense, what he is saying is, we all know the thing that is true, which is that there is a fourth branch of government, and it's called harlan crow. and that he somehow has some separation of powers interest in not disclosing what he has done, because that he's the boss of the of the three branches. it's super crazy, but thank you, mr. crawford, telling us. >> and i was telling you, his name keeps popping, up he's like the kevin bacon of judicial nominees, earliest

ethical questions. the idea that we showed that picture that we can put up again of judge jama ho getting sworn in by clarence thomas at harlan crow's private library, this man is involved in a lot of the careers of these very conservative justices. and let us talk about jim ho who made very clear that he is not a fan of mifepristone or some parts of bodily autonomy when it comes to -- so what do you expect from the fifth surfeit circuit from him in this issue in particular. >> we saw the dry run when initially with the fifth circuit when it initially judged on judge kaz merrick's order, and said we're gonna set the clock back to 2016 pretend what judge kaz merrick did was reasonable. in some sense they got spanked by the u.s. supreme court they didn't let that stay go into effect. what we saw today, my colleague mark stern in the slate, put it

really well. it was them acting out. they were grumpy to the court and put them in the naughty way chair and didn't let them do the thing they wanted to do, which would've been catastrophically limited access to mifepristone. what we so saw with so much snark. that's nerc you lead with, which is really, we are going to talk abandoned things that are just not true, about the fba not being in good faith, the fda maybe will not follow instructions. maybe we should talk about how we're starving babies in the womb. like, the degree of creepy bad fox news discourse as opposed to serious judicial fact-finding was dispiriting from a federal judicial -- >> i've got to say, at the risk of sounding like pollyanna or rick then we cool, i just woken up from hundred years of slumber, i am still shocked that there is this cabal of

arch conservatives who increasingly, it seems, feel like they are above this standards of jurisprudence and can make these calls on the rohan, and they're all friends, and they all have paintings are photographs with wealthy benefactors and feel like they need to make no excuses about the network. from gus judge kaz merrick, even get to jim ho who swore casimir again, from him you can get to clarence thomas, goose or gm ho yen, in from all of the new go back to harlan crow. it feels like the scales are falling from our eyes. >> i was seeing about your dogs playing poker analogy, and it would be like dogs playing poker is if one of the dogs owned all the other dogs. that's why it's really not a poker game, it's something much more nefarious. i think it's also worth saying that judge ho was out on the hustings given the barnstorming disclaimer that everything that clarence thomas did was noble

and that judge kaz merrick, who you may recall, submitted a his name often didn't disclose that is part of his hearings. judge ho defended that as well so these guys are so deep in each other's stuff that that has become their defense in that part of it is like again, stop saying the quiet part out loud, because it doesn't make the judiciary look good. >> stop being part of each other stuff and stop wanting to be part of our stuff as well. just saying as. woman dahlia lithwick, thank you for your time and wisdom is always. still to come with, evening we gonna hear from congressman adam schiff about wire publican colleague is calling for him to be expelled from the house of representatives. stay with us. ay with us you may be missing a critical piece... preservision. preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate

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♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ >> we just had a report come out from durham. what does that say about adam schiff? he lied to the american public. should he be expelled from congress as well? >> that was house speaker kevin mccarthy yesterday arguing that congressman adam schiff should be expelled from congress for leading the probe into president trump's campaign and its relationship with russia. now both the mueller report and the bipartisan senate intelligence committee concluded that russia did interfere in the 2016 election with the sole purpose of helping donald trump beat hillary clinton and that the trump campaign welcome that

interference. speaker mccarthy made those comments after the release of the durham report, commissioned by former attorney general bill barr to basically investigate the investigators. that report contained no major revelations, and it failed to expose a politically motivated deep state conspiracy. but now republicans appear to be looking for ways to hold democrats accountable for the things that special counsel durham could not find himself. that's starting with congressman adam schiff. tonight, far-right republican congresswoman anna paulina luna has introduced a resolution to expel adam schiff from congress. this comes after speaker mccarthy removed congressman she is from the intelligence committee earlier this year. congressman schiff has a lot to say about this and he's gonna be joining me live right after this break. so stay tuned. than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond.

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ready? -here we go. [ heart beat ] [ heart beat ] punch it! [ menacing music playing ] yeah! >> a few hours ago republican

congresswoman anna paulina luna filed a resolution call for the expulsion of adam schiff from congress. over so called revelations from special counsel john durham's report. congressman luna alleges that adam schiff lied to the american people, using his position on american -- push a lie the cost american taxpayers million dollars in abused the trust pasted him as chairman. the durham report makes it clear that the russian collusion was alive from day one and shift perpetuated the lie for political gain. joining us now is congressman schiff from california, member of the judiciary committee. congressman schiff, thank you for being here. i'll get right to. it what is your response to this move to try and expel you from the house of representatives? >> as you said, the durham

investigation -- again, this was an investigation that donald trump demanded, the investigation of the investigators. bill barr was only happy enough to comply by the appointment of durham. durham spends four years trying to prove this deep state conspiracy theory that trump kept telling his base was going to be proven and people like brennan and pelosi and schiff and others were going to be prosecuted. the whole thing, was of course, a big bust. for years, hundreds of interviews, and nothing to show but two failed cases, and which not the defendants who were acquitted but durham the prosecutor, i think, was criticized, by the judge and so the response to this big disappointment for trump and for the maga crowd, let's go after adam schiff, let's go after the person they mostly u.s. tending up to the rule of law, standing against trump and maga world, leading the first impeachment, -- participating in the january 6th committee. that's what this is about. and alex, i'm convinced that

when this dark chapter of history is written it will reflect that those republicans who lacked courage to stand up to the most unethical president in u.s. history, donald trump, consoled themselves by attacking those who did. and that's what this is really about. >> are you surprised that speaker mccarthy's invoking your name? i mean, not technically he's not part of the maga wing of the party but he does help them find a home in the republican conference. but he is the speaker of the house and is supposed to be above some of this petty political mudslinging. did his comments surprise you? >> nothing he does surprises me. it's the same guy the gave surveillance video to tucker carlson. he will do whatever trump wants him to do and i i am sure trump glories in mccarthy and house republicans going after me. it's about satisfying his boss in mar-a-lago and the crowd loves donald trump. so it doesn't surprise me. mccarthy has also made it clear he wants to do everything he can to stop me from being

elected to the senate where he knows i would be more effective at pushing back against these efforts to tear down the rule of law. i think this is what is part of what is at work here. >> i'm not going to ask if you think it's a coincidence, but this is the day this is a move to expel george santos the cereal fabulist from congress. that failed. but do you think this is a naked clay to basically seek an eye for an eye, if you will? you, if george santos is gonna kicked out, and so is adam schiff? >> i think that a lot of what is going on is a lot of what we've seen in the past, which is when democrats do something for the right reason, they use the president to do something for the wrong reason in an attempt to draw a false equivalence about it. but the confluence of efforts to expel this serial fabricator, george santos, this person who

has just been indicted, who has admitted guilt to foreign crime, to distract attention from that, and in the wake of added disappointment of the durham report, let's go after adam schiff. let's please the maga crowd and send a message to anyone else that stands up to donald trump and the extreme maga world, we will go after you the way were going after adam schiff. >> i think congressman schiff, a lot of people are deeply appreciative of what you've done in congress and the fact that you are not being cowed by this transparent attempts that for reasons that have nothing to do anything other than jealousy that your effective at your job. congressman adam schiff, thanks for your time tonight. good luck in this fight. that is the show for this evening. we will see you again tomorrow, and now it is time for the last word, with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. i know that all you kids who grow up and washington post are parliamentarians at heart. i know deep down