on three different occasions he was acting suspiciously with classified material, but they didn't take away his access or conduct any kind of investigation of his activities on social media or elsewhere. it's remarkable, and probably one of the reasons that two of his commanders have been suspended, and the intelligence wing that he worked for has been stood down from its intelligence mission. and there probably will be other changes because there are a lot of questions being asked how that could happen. >> it appears to be a serious breach, serious ramifications for that. ken, thank you very much. and that is going to do it for me today, on this friday. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. things are coming to a head in georgia. the state that represented perhaps more than any other the

country's rejection of donald trump in the 2020 election and became a critical battleground in the campaign by trump and his allies to overturn his defeat. a letter today from fulton county d.a. connie willis to judges and her fellow county officials saying in essence, clear your calendars. "the new york times" reports this, the georgia prosecutor leading an investigation into the former president and his allies has taken the unusual step of announcing remote workdays for most of her staff during the first three weeks of august. asking judges in the downtown atlanta courthouse not to schedule trials for part of that time, as she prepares to bring charges in the inquiry. the move suggests that the fulton county d.a. is expecting a grand jury to unseal indictments during that time period. thanks to court filings and reporting, we know that willis has cast a very wide net, with everyone from state gop officials to the ex-president

himself, under scrutiny right now. "the new york times" reports that a special grand jury that heard evidence in the case for roughly seven months recommended more than a dozen people for indictments. the forewoman strongly himmed in february that trump was among them. trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, was told last sunday that he is a target in this criminal investigation. not exactly a surprise, since he was a central figure in pressuring officials to overturn joe biden's win in georgia and peddling conspear sis about the vote counting. he's also facing a lawsuit for his role in spreading those conspiracies and election lies from ruby freeman and shea moss, the mother and daughter who became, through absolutely no fault of their own, targets of vicious election fraud lies and conspear sis. just this morning, giuliani, was spotted entering a d.c. courthouse. that case has not gone

particularly well legally for giuliani. last year, a federal judge refused to toss out the suit, saying this, there is "ample evidence of a civil conspiracy between giuliani and members of the trump campaign." the push for accountability for the trump coup plot by georgia prosecutors and election workers is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. the former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee is back. plus, atlanta journal constitution washington correspondent tia mitchell is here. mary is back, a former top official in the justice department. want me at the table, "new york times" board member and msnbc contributor, mara gay. tia, i start with you. willis is, if nothing else, deliberate, meticulous, and prepared for whatever is coming in her investigation. talk about this new timeline coming into focus for the first -- for our viewers to

remember, she had previously given a slightly long erwin doe from july to september 1st. she's now narrowed that to the first three weeks of august. >> yeah. to me it indicates that she not only is being meticulous about the case itself and taking her time, but she's also now being meticulous about the logistics of what could happen when indictments come down. you know, she's worried, she's concerned about safety. she's concerned about the employees at the federal courthouse. so she's trying to make sure that everything is as orderly and safe as possible, knowing that there is the chance to if president trump or members of his inner circle are charged, which we don't know, but if they are, there could be a lot of rhetoric on social media, perhaps calls for protests. and i think she just wants to be

ultraprepared for whatever may happen, if she takes these cases to the grand jury. and if the grand jury decides to indict anyone. >> tim, the select committee's star witness, if you disagree with the characterization, i invite you to say so, but cassidy hutchinson was invited to testify in georgia. she may have been invited before she testified in that traumatic summer hearing, but with her actual trip to georgia came after her summer testimony. i want to play some of what the congressional committee developed as evidence. this is specifically about the executive branch coup plot as it pertained to georgia. this is about what was envisioned by top doj officials, including jeffrey clark. >> as you will see, this letter claims that the u.s. department

of justice's investigations have "identified significant concerns that may have impacted the outcome of the election in multiple states, including the state of georgia." in fact, donald trump knew this was a lie. the department of justice had already informed the president of the united states repeatedly that its investigations had found no fraud sufficient to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the letter also said this -- "in light of these developments, the department recommends that the georgia general assembly should convene in special session." and consider approving a new slate of electors and it indicates a separate slate of fake electors supporting donald trump has already been transmitted to washington, d.c. for those of you who have been

watching these hearings, the language of this draft justice department letter will sound very familiar. the text is similar to what we have seen from john eastman and rudy giuliani. both of whom were coordinating with president trump to overturn the 2020 election. >> tim, i want you to just take a beat and go through the architecture of the coup plot, because as i just sort of doodled out, it all runs through georgia. the white house plot that trump is running is now the famous call to brad raffensperger. jeffrey clark wanted the u.s. attorney there to open an investigation without any evidence of fraud. eastman goes down there and is activating the georgia legislature to present this fake, phony slate of electors, and the fake electors themselves, some of them have cooperated, some of them are witnesses, and some are targets of the probe. >> yeah, exactly right, nicolle.

i think georgia was the center because they were so surprised and disappointed at the result in georgia of all of the swing states for that one to go to joe biden. i think that was the biggest surprise. i think there was a false sense that there are a lot of republicans in state government down there that we can go along with this potentially. the other thing that is so striking about georgia, nicolle, is that is the state where the u.s. attorney, the trump u.s. attorney, the fbi leadership, looked very hard at specific allegations of fraud, this notion of suitcases and ballots being pulled out from you believed a table at the state farm arena. this truck full of shredded ballots, they looked hard at the specific facts surrounding the election in georgia, and they completely rebutted all of that. there was absolutely no evidence. this goes back to bill barr, and conveyed this to the president. so it's particularly striking that in georgia, they looked

very closely at all of the specific allegations, found no evidence. and yet continued to spin this narrative of fraud in georgia, put pressure on brad raffensperger and state legislators and proposed this letter you just showed from jeffrey clark. people stepped forward to help facilitate the election, and the whole pattern is outrageous, because it's so starkly built on a lie. >> tim, do you -- i won't put words in your mouth. what do you expect attorney willis to do? where was the starkest evidence of criminality of your scrub in these events and actors? >> yeah, you can't understand what happened in georgia without looking at the national trump campaign and its advisers. this go all the way to the former president and his legal advisers. it goes to officials who worked on the trump campaign in washington, what they were doing in georgia, generating these

fake electors, putting pressure on the secretary of state and state legislators, it was orchestrated in washington. so nicolle, this is a washington case, even though it ultimately will be charged in georgia. >> so tim, that brings me -- i mean, mark meadows travels to georgia. not clear why, but we know he had his hands all over it. lindsey graham is on the phone, he doesn't represent anyone in georgia. you've got eastman in the state, twisting arms in legislature. you have rudy on the phone, telling them what to do. and you have trump telling the secretary of state to "see if he can find him 11,780 votes." how are these people not under more -- these publicly, under more criminal scrutiny by doj? >> i think they are under scrutiny by doj. i think willis is a step ahead, she's looking at the same facts

that he is, she's looking beyond georgia, and frankly this pattern was replicated in other states, in pennsylvania, in michigan, in arizona. so, look, she got -- we talked before about the pace of the department of justice investigation. i think the d.a. convened her special grand jury and assigned some people to look at this earlier than he, so she's a little more ahead. but to be clear, what happened in georgia is not unique. it's not different than what happened in these other states. what i think you will see is an indictment in georgia, it seems clear that's coming in july or august. and then you will see a more sprawling indictment coming later in federal court. >> you say that with certainty. i mean, it is logical, because donald trump can't stay in power unless he steals and overturns more than one state. georgia doesn't get him there

numerically, so of course, the coup didn't start and stop in georgia. but do you know something? i guess your intimacy with the evidence is what gives you the confidence to say that? >> exactly. nicolle, i don't know anything behind the scenes about the process of the special counsel. i'm a former prosecutor, and i look hard at these facts for 16 months, working on the select committee. sit a strong and compelling case of obstruction of an official proceeding, of a conspiracy, of the submission of false statements, the fake elector certificates. so i take the attorney general at his word when he says he will make this decision based on the facts and the law. the facts get even stronger when special counsel gets access to information. we get stronger with that evidence. >> mary, let me also bring into focus a very interesting case

that is winding its way through. this is what brought rudy giuliani into federal court today, a defamation case from shea moss and ruby freeman. let she show you the evidence that the january 6th committee developed around the conspiracies and how they destroyed their reputations and lies based on their testimony. >> earlier in the day, when they quite obviously passing around usb -- [ inaudible ] it's obvious to anybody who is a criminal investigator or prosecutor they are engaged in illegal activity. again, that day. and they're still walking around georgia, lying. they should have been -- they should have been questioned already.

their places of work, their homes should have been searched for evidence of voter fraud, for ballots. >> one of the things we just watched, mr. giuliani accused you and your mother of passing a usb drive to each other. what was your mom actually handing you on that video? >> a ginger mint. >> ginger mint. mary, it wasn't just usb ports, it was viles of heroine or cocaine. what sort of contours do you see in this defamation case against rudy? >> well, i'll tell you what, i certainly think of all the people who should face accountability, he is right at the top of the list. that's accountability in civil actions like the defamation case brought by rudy freeman and shea moss. and accountability in the civil

case recently brought that i can barely get through the complaint because it's so sickening. i'm wondering what else is going on in rudy giuliani's office while he makes that statement, those really defamatory statements based on lies. so those are civil actions against him, and i think those are strong cases. ruby freeman and shea moss, there's been no indication that they ever did any of the things that he claimed they did, and they suffered for that. they suffered threats against both of them. they feel unsafe going out in public. it's impacted the business of miss fleeman. so those are true damages that their civil case seeks monetary compensation for. but i think rudy is also, you know, facing accountability, not only in willis' investigation,

but also in jack smith's investigation. and i think, you know, again, this is a person, a lawyer who, you know, ledges to be following the law. he's held important and significant legal positions in his career, but he's completely abused all of the privileges of being an attorney, and certainly abused his position as mr. trump's attorney, and used it for all the worst possible purposes. so i'm very much hoping for accountability for rudy giuliani. >> mary, we understand that today's hearing in federal court was around the discovery process, and because, thanks to dominion and fox news, we've all become expert armchair legal defamation analysts. i want to ask you about nope falsities. if he said they were able to develop evidence that these conspiracy theorys were investigated by doj, which is audacious and unethical but not

illegal. you have bill barr as a potential witness saying yeah, i briefed the president that there were no suitcases of ballots. you also have the campaign, i remember testimony developed by the select committee that mr. stepien, who was running the trump campaign, had a memo written of all of the election conspiracies rudy was peddling that proved none of them were true. could the trump campaign manager and trump's attorney general become witnesses if the discovery process has to prove whether or not there were known falsities communicated about ruby and shea? >> absolutely. as you just stated, and we have all become armchair experts in defamation. you know, falsity is the key. the statements made have to have been false. and so that means that the plaintiffs are entitled to take discovery and entitled to obtain information, including through the testimony of people who might have that information, through the deposition process.

you know, this is where a perssn and testify at a deposition. that's important testimony. some of the other revelations in this discovery dispute are that one of mr. trump's former attorneys, mr. smith, ray smith, has also been asked to do a deposition, and has indicated that because he is possibly somewhere between a witness and a target of willis' investigation, he would be taking the fifth amendment during that deposition. so the plot thickens there, because that takes us -- that representation made by mr. smith's own lawyers to try to avoid a deposition in the civil case, that ruby freeman and shea

moss brought, indicates that willis is looking at ray smith, an attorney for trump, as somebody who has relevant information and potentially has his own criminal culpability. so i know this can get confusing for people, because we're talking about intersections of civil cases and criminal cases, and people who have fifth amendment rights or seek to assert their fifth amendment rights, which we normally associate with a criminal case, because that's where the right of self-incrimination rises. but asserting those rights even in a civil case because of their concerns about their own criminal culpability. >> i want to -- i think that intersectionality is important and sometimes information is coughed up through a civil process that may or may not end up being relevant through a slightly more opaque criminal process. let me read you some of what judge howell says in her opinion where she rejects rudy's motion to dismiss this defamation case

from shea moss and ruby freeman. y freeman. >> i'm not going to play it a second time, but what he says about thome is vicious, that they were passing around usb ports as if they were viles of heroin or cocaine. it's obvious to anyone who is a criminal investigator that they are engaged in illegal activity that day. that's one week ago, and they're still walking around georgia

lying. they should have been, they should have been, they should have been questioned already. their places of work, their homes should have been searched for evidence of ballots and usb ports for evidence of voter fraud. and they would go on to be hunted. they would have to leave their homes. the fbi would move them for their own safety. >> it's worth just pointing out that these are unknown public servants whose lives were put in danger. you know, listening to you read rudy giuliani's words and accusations, one thing that's really striking, this is the former attorney of the southern district of new york. this is not a layman. this is somebody who understands what defamation is. nobody in that courtroom is going to be able to plausibly say that he didn't know what he was doing, because he did. so it was vicious. i think that the details, the more we hear the details and we

saw it on the january 6th committee report, which did an excellent case of explaining to the people how this conspiracy worked. we're seeing it again now, which there is a big difference between the big lie in general, and donald trump, rudy giuliani, his surrogates, going out and making obscene and absurd claims without evidence on national television. and actually building a conspiracy to overthrow an election in several states. and that actually is why this is so important. they knew that the facts weren't there, but they acted, giuliani, apparently eastman, meadows, they were all involved in acting any way. and that is the difference here between a legal case and us opining on some obscene things they may say on other networks. so i think it's really important. it can be hard to keep track, i think, for the american public of what's going on. but the georgia case is the most disturbing case, it is the biggest threat to the democracy

that we have. and so the stakes are extremely high. it's very unusual to have a prosecutor like this way out in front, and also just giving a timeline. it suggests that there is a lot going on behind the scenes, especially security wise, that we don't know about yet. >> yeah. and i guess i want to follow up on that, tim. you've investigated a lot of these events much more broadly than just georgia. but she seems to have front of mind this security question, at least, about, you know, accountability for trump. i know that was very much front of mind for the january 6th committee, as well. >> yeah. look, every member of the select committee was escorted to and from their home and their office in washington by capitol police officers, because they got direct threats to their safety. as we just talked about, both ruby freeman and shea moss were directly threatened.

when anyone throws out to the public this incendiary rhetoric, it stokes up the real risk for further violence. so the d.a. is doing the right thing by saying, something is coming, it could be dangerous. we need to prepare for that. we're going to tell our employees to telework to try and prevent conditions under which more violence can occur. it's sad that we have come to that in this country, that d.a.s have to forecast that they are doing official action might come to violence. but i think based on the record, it's prudent to do so. >> it's a sign of the things. when we come back, much more on these stories and the possibility of indictment only underscores questions about the state of the justice department's investigation into trump's national coup plot. plus, long-time trump ally

allen weisselberg is out of jail but not out of the legal woods just yet. alvin brag is hoping he will flip on his former boss. if not, he could be back behind bars. and capitol police officer harry dunn sits down with us at the table. how does he keep hope and optimism alive for accountability? and for an prmt conversation about dealing with, talking about, and combatting mental health challenges, something he and his fellow officers struggle with every day. all that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. (man) it's pretty simple. i kinda just want things the way i want them. (woman) i want a network that won't let me down. even up here! (woman #2) with an unlimited plan that's truly right for me. (woman #3) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man #2) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan.

(vo) introducing myplan from verizon, the first and only plan where you choose what goes in, from apple music to disney bundle. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. on the network you want. because it's your verizon. want luxury hair repair that doesn't cost $50? pantene's pro-vitamin formula repairs hair. as well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and things are a no-go because you keep seeing double, for softness and resilience, without the price tag. it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com that's treatt-e-d.com. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. everyone: woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals. enter the $10,000 nourishing moments giveaway. so, you found the no7 then...

it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond.

♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] money stresses me out. so, i got this experian app, and now, i'm checking my fico® score. i got a new credit card, and i'm even finding ways to save. finally getting smart about money feels really good. see all you can do with the free experian app. download it now.

everyone is back. tia, i want to ask you what this is like in georgia. i know that legal maneuverings can very much happen under the surface, but there has to be a lot of people with a lot of lawyers, and i think tim and mary mentioned these intersecting probes. what is the sort of degree of watching and reading the tea leaves like? >> well, i think that's what everyone has been doing. you know, for weeks, if not months now, there was a wile back fani willis said that charges were "imminent" and that led a lot of people to think they were coming kind of sooner rather than later. and once that didn't happen, she clarified, i mean legal imminent, not maybe any day now imminent. so people really are, number one, i think people do want to know what is the grand jury going to do?

we have the special grand jury report, but it's not public. so we know they did make recommendations. we don't know who. so just a lot of it is a big mystery about who, but there is also that factor that people who live and work in atlanta, the safety factor is also at top of mind. we know just kind of the way things are in america today, the volatile situations can be dangerous at times. so i think that the precautions fani willis, the precautions she is taking, people are appreciative of them, but that creates another level of curiosity and concern about what may be to come this summer. >> yeah. we were talking about, to tia's point, it is unusual to put such specificity around a timeline. >> i mean, we were just kind of thinking about what that might mean. it's really just speculation. >> of course. >> we don't know. my instinct as a reporter is,

when there are security concerns, sometimes you hear less. so we don't know. >> right. >> obviously, you know, there has been nothing but professionalism from the office so far. we just don't know what this is about. the maneuvering behind the scenes creates more intrigue, and there are a lot of moving parts. trying to keep track of this conspiracy is a full-time job. >> yeah. i mean, i love what tia said, tim, about imminent has a different connotation than the legal setting. while we're on the air? that's what imminent means. but to your point about her being a step ahead of doj, i want to put up the timeline for fani willis's investigation. ill.

we've been talking about a decision was imminent and later clarification of the first few weeks of august. is this a timeline that can be projected onto any other office? is this a reasonable timeline for doj, or is the very nature of a national coup plot render this in not a good sort of apples to apples? >> look, i think she's being methodical. any time you bring in a case of this magnitude, you have to

absolutely turn over every stone possible to try to get information. that is just information gathering. then there's the assessment of charges, internal decision making, discussion about who will be charged, what the charges are. so imminent means diffe fact gae was largely done by the special grand jury, and a lot of that can then be presented to a shorter version, the criminal grand jury. and then there is a question -- i think the special counsel is likely going through a similar process. then there's an assessment of what do they have? what does that mean nerls of statutes violated, potential defendants? they might even get potential indictees a chance to come in and meet with the prosecutor. so that's likely going on in haunt and in washington, and that's responsible when you are

bringing a case of this significance to go through that careful process. >> mary, fani willis has always had the entire circuit under scrutiny, which started and ended with trump and his call with brad raffensperger. we know that doj didn't shift its focus to that whole sort of -- they were looking at the foot soldiers until jack smith arrives, which is last fall. so it's almost 18 months behind her probe. in terms of timing, and, again, i know investigations and prosecutions don't live and die by any clock, but our presidential elections have one that is immovable. what is your sense on the pace and timeline that jack smith has to work with? >> yeah. you know, there were some things afoot before jack smith was appointed. you might remember in early 2022, i guess it was, the deputy attorney general, lisa monaco,

did announce they were looking into the fraudulent elector scheme. and that is a core piece of what happened in seven different swing states, which provided the narrative that was used to justify the attack on the capitol by those who believed that the election was rigged. and so there was work going on before jack smith got there. but in terms of timing, we have a presidential election in a little bit over a year and a half from now. so in order to bring charges and get through a trial before the election, jack smith will have to act relatively soon, because there will be a time period for discovery, and there will be a time period for motions. and if we know donald trump like we do, he will do everything in his power, assuming he is indicted, to slow things down and to muddy things and to take

interlocutory appeals during the proceedings, and normally, in a criminal case, there are no interlocutory appeals. the ideal is you wait until after the case is finished and you get your one chance at appeal. that doesn't mean he won't try. so a couple of things are important here. if i were jack smith, when i was ready to indict, i would have an entire package of everything that donald trump is entitled to in discovery and ready to hand it over. i would have the transcripts of every grand jury witness who i intended to call at trial. i would have all the documentary evidence, all the digital evidence. hand it to him on a silver platter to i can say to the judge, i understand you need time to go through this, but we have given them everything. so we don't have to waste a whole bunch of months, you know, turning things over. and also, i would note that the speedy trial provision of our constitution, we think of it as a right of the defendant, and it

certainly is, the right for a speedy trial. but the supreme court has been clear that there is a societal interest in a speedy trial, as well. and in part, that societal interest is to avoid manipulation by a defendant. and so i think our judges, assuming again that there is an indictment, i think our judges will be very aware of the public interest in getting this case resolved before the election. again, assuming there is an indictment. >> that's so interesting. thank you so much for helping us decipher today's developments. mary and mara, stick around a little bit longer. coming up, former top money man at the trump org, one allen weisselberg, is being given an opportunity to not return to jail. instead, being given an opportunity to cooperate with manhattan prosecutors. we'll explain that, next. osecut. we'll explain that, next i think this is it guys? when the martins booked their vrbo vacation home,

they really weren't looking for much: a patch of grass for bruno, a pool for first-timers, don't worry, i've got you. and time with each other. and when they needed support, someone was right there. i got you. because what's unique about a vrbo is you can reach a real person in about a minute. ♪ that's some bad luck brian. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general. when the murrays discovered gain scent beads, they fell in love with the irresistible scent. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh.

there are some things that go better... together. burger and fries... soup and salad. thank you! like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together... can help you make smarter decisions. for a more confident financial future. hey, a tandem bicycle. you can't do that by yourself. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected. when you really need to sleep. you reach for the vreally good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. after my car accident, i wondered what my case was worth. so i called the barnes firm. when that car hit my motorcycle,

insurance wasn't fair. so i called the barnes firm. it was the best call i could've made. atat t bararnefirmrm, our r inry a attneysys wk hahard i could've made. atat t bararnefirmrm, to get you the best result possible. call us now and find out what your case could be worth. you u mit bebe sprisised ♪ the barnes firm injury attorneys ♪ ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ our customers don't do what they do for likes or followers. their path isn't for the casually curious. and that's what makes it matter the most when they find it. the exact thing that can change the world. some say it's what they were born to do... it's what they live to do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff

i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and you go through artificial tears in the blink of an eye, the uk's #1 skincare it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com. that's treatt-e-d.com. today, one month since trump ally allen weisselberg was released from rikers island after pleading guilty for tax fraud, there is brand new reporting in "the new york times" how the manhattan d.a. is threatening to send him back to prison unless he helps bragg at a crucial time as a valuable witness in his criminal investigation. and criminal charges against trump over hush money payments

and his other trump investigation of false financial statements for which weisselberg had a front row seat. >> joining our conversation, the reverend al sharpton. mara and mary are back with us. mary, let me ask you about this. i feel like allen weisselberg doesn't always do what prosecutors hope he will do in the timeline they hope he will do it. but tell me about this strategy of timing, if you will. >> well, it's interesting,

because there's something of a double edged sword here, right? because even though the prosecutors may think that what allen weisselberg has to offer is very, very valuable, and even if they, you know, are thinking it's so valuable that they want to threaten him with prosecution, and i say threaten not because i think it's an empty threat, but assuming they have the evidence that would support charges, they can let him know, we've got evidence to support these charges against you, but we would consider some lesser offense or maybe no charges at all if you cooperate. you know, that's one side of it. he's valuable enough to make that bargain or to try to make that bargain. the other side, is the more pressure on him to testify, if he ultimately does testify, that's all going to come out at a trial, right? so the jury will hear that the d.a. tried, you know, the first time and weisselberg didn't budge, prosecuted and went to jail. the d.a. came back, if this is the case, and this is not alvin bragg saying this, this is two

people saying that part of the correspondence between the d.a. and mr. weisselberg, his attorneys, was that they would like him to testify on threat of further prosecution. but that will come out that again, even after he served his time, 100 days at rite gers, he was pressured again. so that can make the jury worry about the credibility of mr. weisselberg, because they might think he's under duress. and so, you know, that is a calculus that mr. bragg and his office are making. we'll see what ends up happening. i would be very cautious if i were in that office. >> rev, you know alvin bragg.

let me read more from the reporting on specifically what conduct is under scrutiny here. the potential perjury charges for weisselberg stem from statements he made under oath during a 2020 interview with the office of the new york attorney general letitia james, who was conducting her own separate investigation into trump and his family business. it's not clear which part of the testimony raised red flags for prosecutors and ms. james or how bragg might prove that weisselberg made a false statement. it's clear that there is a lot going on under the surface that we don't see, both in the office of the attorney general and the office -- alvin bragg's office. i also feel, present company included, we have underestimated bragg's tenacity and long game before. what do you make of this? >> i think if, in fact, alvin bragg and his office is going after weisselberg, i think that

they must have something that will withstand a jury having some cynicism or suspicion about whether he was forced under duress, and what i mean by that is that i think the fact that weisselberg was in charge of finances, if they have some solid stuff that weisselberg can explain, i think that will put aside was he operating under duress. a lot of that will be based on the evidence that they're trying to get him to corroborate or the evidence that they feel he misled the attorney general's investigation. so a lot of it is what is the contempt, and from what i know as alvin bragg as a prosecutor, and even before he was d.a. when he was in the attorney general's office, i don't think alvin

bragg would be pointing a gun if it wasn't fully loaded. >> oh, wow. here is some of what weisselberg told james from some court documents. during his sworn testimony -- >> first of all, that's -- >> it's all monopoly money. >> this is a reminder that this behavior has been going on for decades. >> right. >> way before donald trump was in the white house. of course, weisselberg was trump's money man. and so there are decades potentially of actions that weisselberg is privy to, that the d.a. may be interested in.

of course, the other reason that testimony is interesting, we don't know what the perjury charges specifically are based around in weisselberg's testimony to letitia james, we don't know that yet. but i think the fact that the d.a. is interested in potentially prosecuting him based on those perjury charges suggests that there might be some offense taken to the system. in other words, if you're lying under oath or accused of lying under oath to another sitting elected official, that can really upset judges, prosecutors, and it -- it's like you're sticking your thumb in their face. so i think that may be at play. but the interesting thing here is that alvin bragg is not a political animal. a criticism of him in new york in that first year is that he wasn't political enough. so he's very meticulous and very cautious. so there is a lot that he knows

that we don't. and surely, we'll be finding out more in the days ahead. >> this is just fascinating. rev, i know you had a big day. you spoke today at the funeral, and i want to play some of the sound and we'll make this about jordan neely's funeral. >> jordan was not annoying someone on the train. jordan was screaming for help. we keep criminalizing people with mental illness. people keep criminalizing people that need help. they don't need abuse, they need help. >> this sort of cuts to all of it, right? a mental health crisis in a

crowded city like new york is still just what you said it is, a cry for help. do you foal like part of this conversation is moving in a direction where we can all hold up a mirror to how we distantly fail the mentally ill? >> i do. i think that, you know, everyone that's taken their position on the case. but beyond the case, can we use this moment with jordan neely to say, what are we doing to deal with how we handle people with mental illness? what are we doing with people we deem homeless? position that many disagree with, but said we need to have a summit on mental illness and how we deal with it, and i said today in the eulogy, the neely

family ought it to be involved in that. the lawyers ought to object involved in that. i think at one level it is a important case because you have a civilian, not a police officers, who choked somebody to death. there is no way i can see why he got involved at all. there was no threat to anyone. there was no weapons there. how do you say self-defense when you came up behind? that's the criminal case. i think what jordan neely can mean on an even bigger scale is finally getting new york to deal with a way that we handle people with mental illness. adams was not the mayor when most of this happened. he has no reason not to lean all the way in since he said have a summit, and i think in jordan neely's name his family would want to not only see the criminal case proceed, but also to deal with policies on mental health. there is no reason he should have even been available given the records that are being

unsealed on how different agencies was handling him down through the years. >> mara? >> i agree with the rev. i think we know what needs to be done here in new york. we need housing, supportive housing and services for this exceptionally vulnerable population. it's very difficult to do because of the larger housing crisis, but that's actually what we need. people do know how to provide services to that population, but in order to do so people need a safe place to live, which is part of living in dignity for all of us. of course, one of the tragedies of the neely death is just that we saw this man collectively as a city, some of us, as someone who is a threat instead of somebody in need of help. hopefully, that holds a mirror up to us. we can do better. that makes me feel -- it's not just about what is happening with this population. what's happening with all of us that we have lost that empathy and that compassion? it makes me concerned for the city and the country as a whole.

>> yeah, i mean, i think it's a conversation to be started. everybody has skin in the game, right? everybody has -- >> that's right. >> an incentive or should feel incentivized to -- >> we all want safe public spaces, where everybody can have dignity, safety, and respect. >> yeah. all right. rev, thank you so much for letting us turn you to on that story. mary and mara, thank you. up next, news from president joe biden while overseas at the g7 meeting a development for ukraine. we will tell you about it next.

hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. -and i scored a goal on ashley. -that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. it's probably because of that flea and tick medicine you've been ordering from chewy. we are very proud of you. you never stop surprising us, bailey. right? i'm great. you are great. i wonder if bailey's ever done a book report. be nice to your sister. what flea bit him? pets aren't just pets. they're more. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy. (♪ music ♪) trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. (♪ ♪) (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business?

accenture. let there be change. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and your eyes feel like they're getting kicked in the backside, it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com. that's treatt-e-d.com. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ [♪♪] did you know, unless you treat dandruff regularly, ♪ go to your happy price ♪ it will keep coming back. try head & shoulders shampoo. dandruff is caused by irritation to a germ

that lives on everyone's scalp. unlike regular shampoo, head & shoulders contains zinc pyrithione, which fights the dandruff-causing germ and helps prevent it from coming back. it's gentle on hair and provides up to 100% dandruff protection, clinically proven. try head & shoulders shampoo and conditioner. for best results, use with every wash. this has been medifacts for head & shoulders. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ get 2.9% apr for 36 months plus $1,500 purchase allowance on an xt5 and xt6 when you finance through cadillac financial. ♪ (janet) so much space!... when you finance through cthat open kitchen! (tanya) oooh definitely the one! (ethan) but how can you sell your house when we're stuck on a space station for months???!!!

(brian) no guys, opendoor gives you the flexibility to sell and buy on your timeline. (janet) nice! (intercom) flightdeck, see you at the house warming. of president joe biden's first day at the g7 in japan. the u.s. and hour global allies plan to make another big commitment to ukraine in what could be a turning point in the war against russia. the u.s. and g7 allies will provide ukraine with f-16 fighter jets and the u.s. will join efforts to train ukrainian pilots as well. it is still unclear just which countries will provide the planes and when that happens. the news comes as the leaders have announced more sanctions against russia. and we learned that ukrainian president zelenskyy will join president biden and the other leaders at the g7 summit over the weekend. a very quick break for us. when we come back capitol police officer harry dunn will be here at the table. don't go anywhere. where. you save on personal loans,

credit cards, or car insurance. experian helped me save over $1,400 a year on car insurance. start saving now. free. at experian.com or get the app now. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and you go through artificial tears in the blink of an eye, at experian.com it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com. that's treatt-e-d.com. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ live your best day, every day with the power of the gelflex grid. sleep better. live purple. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing!

hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose. delicious too. just ask my old friend, kevin. nothing like enjoying a cold one while watching the game. who's winning? we are, my friend. we are.

f-16. ♪♪ the dangerous assault on american constitutional tiktok that took place january 6th consists of hundreds of individual criminal offenses. most such crimes are already being prosecuted by the department of justice. we proposed to the committee advancing referrals where the gravity of the specific offense, the severity of its actual harm in the centrality of the offender to the overall design ever the unlawful scheme to overthrow the election compel us

to speak. ours is not a system of justice where foot soldiers go to jail in the masterminds and ringleaders get a free pass. >> hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. the united states of america was founded on that principle, that the rule of law applies to everyone no matter how powerful or politically connected or famous, and yet it has been more than two years since the deadly insurrection on the u.s. capitol and the plotters and inciters of that day, those who knew exactly what they were doing, was illegal and sent the angry mob to attack the capitol anyway have yet to face any legal repercussions. it is an ongoing battle for truth and justice for all that takes on even more weight considering the man who propagated the lies and incited the insurrection is running for president again. and, by the way, he is currently the gop frontrunner. in the latest installment of a comment that is shocking but not

surprising from him on a night last week when he was given a major platform on a different news network he said he would pardon, quote, a large portion of the insurrectionists. pardon the people who stormed the capitol. defaced our citadel of democracy, brutally attacked members of law enforcement and called for the killing of elected officials, including his then-number two, mike pence. that same event former president trump now twice impeached once indicted and liable for sexual abuse said that pence, his vp, did something wrong on january 6th, that pence shav sent the votes back to state legislature. now, thanks to the work of the 1/6 select committee trump knew pence didn't have the authority to to that. jump's lawyer told him so days before the capitol insurrection. trump's remark sure to be of interest to special counsel jack smith who is criminally investigating the ex-president for his efforts to overthrow the

2021 election results. as this special counsel's investigation pushes forward, we have seen some markers of accountability for those who broke the law in to our country. four members of the far-right extremist group the proud boys were found guilty of seditious conspiracy. although trump has not faced consequences for his role that day, law has come down on him in other jurisdictions in other ways. last month the manhattan d.a. announced 34 felony indictments for falsifying business record and a jury in new york found him liable for sexual assault and defamation in the trial brought forward by writer e. jean carroll. those are moments, instances where the defenders of the rule of law could exhale momentarily. as we said, when comes to the ex-president's role in the deadly insurrection the fight for accountability is very much

ongoing. not letting the masterminds and ringleaders of january 6th get a free pass is where we begin the hour with a very special guest. harry dunn, presidential citizens medal recipient, author of standing my ground, a capitol police officer's fight for accountability and good trouble. so nice to have you here. we have been talking about this. i know we grab you on big days. but to have time to have this conversation is really important and special to us. thank you. >> glad to be here. like you said, it's a long time coming. but i am glad to be here to have some important conversations with you. >> tell me about last night first. tell me about the award. >> yesterday the common good had an awards ceremony. it was a little backed up because of covid and the restrictions that they had. so there was two years combined in one. and we were celebrated and honored with some fine americans, skip gates, ludenber

zb, just some amazing americans. we were honored to be in the room, you know. i have always said from the jump that the people that day were heroes on january 6th and although my face and the names of michael finual, myself, sergeant gonell, danny hodges have become synonymous with the january 6th insurrection and attack, there are so many names of officers who fought that day, names you will never know, whose faces you walk down the street, you could be walking next to an american hero and you wouldn't even know it. so i was happy to accept that award and dedicate it to those officers, my co-workers who fought so bravely and valiantly that day. it was an amazing opportunity by the common good foundation. just great honor to be there. >> you are always very specific and deliberate to never speak for them.

but because you have honored them, let me just ask you a question about law enforcement in general. what is the disconnect for people who have to protect an instugts, a building, say, in the minimum who work inside of it who deny the threat? >> that's where the challenge -- you know, not even the challenge. that's where the human element comes into -- we are all humans. so you like to look at -- people see law enforcement as, you know, robots or just go do your job and we will get into it later, talking about the mental health part of it. but we are human beings, we have feels, we have emotions. that's one of the things about the january 6th -- i still go to work and do my job every single day since january 6th and before, but i'm still a victim just like so many of our co-workers, victims deserve justice and accountability. and that's why i haven't shut up 863 days later.

and i think it's important to still continue to push for that, or, like i say, what's to stop it from happening again? >> do you feel like there is still a threat that it could happen again? >> yeah. like, the dudes that -- the dudes, sorry. >> that's okay. >> the former president -- >> that's about the nicest thing we could call him, right? >> the former president is going to pardon the people. what is a pardon? hey, you guys, don't worry about it, it's okay, i forgive you. so what's going to stop that if he is elected to pardon the people -- you know what? they were wrong to prosecute us. is that their thought process? they were wrong to prosecute us. they were wrong. we were right. let's do it again. i don't know if that's their thought process but how could that not come to mind when you hear he is going to pardon the individuals responsible. >> i remember when trump said he was going to do this, pardon the rioters and i said not on tv, i said to my team, i said this is

going to be a litmus test in the republican primary that you have to be for pardoning the insurrectionists to get through a republican primary. so the damage i see politically is that he is now infected one of the country's two parties to be for erasing the meticulous, tedious, fact-based work of charging and prosecuting and having a jury render a judgment for insurrection, wiping it all away of what damage does that do? >> the bigger question, why is it hard -- why does that become a test? >> why is that a good thing? >> why is it a test to say that the people responsible need to be held accountable? i believe nikki haley said something today, the people that broke the law need to be held accountable. it's literally as simple as that. if you broke the law, you need to be held accountable. not be pardoned for it. why is it a test? why is it hard? why is that a campaign issue or -- why is that a problem?

it doesn't make any sense to me. if you are wrong, you answer to it and you are held accountable and that should be the end of it. >> what is the sort of private conversation among anyone that was at the capitol that day about why the individuals who we saw on our tv screens had been investigated and prosecuted and sentenced, but the people who incited them there that day, who planned the day, wanted to join them that day haven't? >> one thing you said about the private conversations, a lot of people don't talk about it that much. i do and probably people are tired of it. i don't care. but some people just -- that's how they cope. out of sight, out of mind, they don't want to pay any attention to it, it's over, get back to work. that's fine. that may work for some people. that doesn't work for me. but i just keep going back to why is this hard? why is this -- we literally saw

what happened that day. like, and you're gonna tell us that what we saw -- like michael said, i have been to hell and back only for people to tell me that hell doesn't exist. he was there in the middle of it and everybody, the entire world, not just the country, the entire world watched that footage. i just -- i am so flabbergasted with how people don't acknowledge what we went through that day. still looming threat over this country. >> do you view the promise to pardon those people who, you know, the wheels of justice have been grinding very slowly and meticulously for people held accountable, some of the people on that screen are in jail or waiting trial. donald trump says he is going to pardon them. to me it feels like what's ahead could be even worse than what's behind. >> that's one major reason we make to make sure he doesn't get elected so he doesn't have the ability to pardon anybody like

that. it's kinda like setting them up to -- like i said, do it again. we need to make sure a country that we prioritize what's important and storming the capitol and trying to overthrow democracy should be at the top of that list. >> i am not asking you this to retraumatize you in any way, but i think some of the ways that people compartmentalize this is politics, is that they don't have see their faces, they don't remember trump supporters in their face doing them harm and saying horrible things. do you remember? do you think about being face to face with his supporters that day? >> you know what? people say yesterday -- a lot of people asked, you know, are you, you know, still traumatized? do you have flashbacks? it's hard to have a flashback of something when it hasn't ended and it's still like a non-stop playing scene in your head, like maybe i'm obsessed with it. maybe, i don't know. but that's not a flashback moment. it's every day it's in my mind,

i'm seeing what happened that day. you know, just walking down the hallway with co-workers, they'll be a spot in the capitol they remember where something happened that day. not even just a police officers. the staff. the janitorial, the custodians, everybody who worked in the -- the tour guides. they just have a memory of something that happened that day. and so it's hard to. it's not like a flashback, a triggering moment. this is my life now. how could it end until, like i said, accountability has been had. >> and that's trauma, right? it's a moment that gets frozen in time and then time isn't what it is for anyone who isn't traumatized. >> 863 days. that's a long time. waiting. tired of waiting. >> what would accountability look like?

>> i try to -- i'll try to be, you know, educated instead of emotional responding to this question. but whatever the measures that are there to make sure that this never happens again. that's what accountability looks like to me. what can we do to guarantee that this person -- maybe not anybody in the future. i guess that's some part of accountability to deter people. but to make sure the individual responsible never does it again and that goes back to the making sure that he doesn't the power to pardon anybody and all of the other people that were involved in it. >> your voice is so singular in that you are both a protector of the building and the men and women that worked in it and confident enough to share your vulnerability. i mean, it makes the hair on my arms stand up to hear you do something that most people who

have been traumatized can't ever do, let alone on tv, talk about the trauma. and i wonder where that comes from. how do you do that? >> i own my truth and i don't conflate my story or the things that i have been through with anybody else. how i'm feeling is how i'm feeling. i don't expect anybody to go through -- have been through what i have been through. every victim has a story. people should be empowered to tell their story. i encourage anybody and everybody who has been a victim, especially on january 6th, to face that and share that with -- share your story. nobody take that from you. that's yours. and i feel like that's where my strength is. my story is what i went through. i don't try to say that everybody at the capitol police or members of staff, anybody in the capitol building that day went through what i went through. it's what i went through. and that's how i can stand steadfast in my truth because

this is what i went through. >> i don't know if you see it this way. i see it this way. your call for congress to find the guy who sent the hitman, i think, i believe, and i talked to so many people about this, you know, put that in motion. and i think it gave them the layer at this time. i mean, their first public hearing before the much publicized series of public hearings last was you and officer hostages and fin own talking about what it was like. that's where we learn that the officer saw it hand to hand medieval combat worse than anything sergeant gonell experienced on the battlefield in iraq. how did that become the work of one party and two basic defectors of the other? >> i messed that metaphor up. >> everyone knew what you were saying. >> but i don't know how to --

how did that become the line that people need to stand up to? nicole, it's so frustrating. this is black and white to me. one of the reasons why i was so adamant about the president being held accountable, still am adamant about the president being held accountable, is in between the strikes with the american flag or the "thin blue line" flag or being pepper-sprayed in between all of that, they were telling us that donald trump sent us to the capitol. so we didn't have to guess or assume or listen to a press conference afterwards. in the middle of all of the attacks, they told us that that is why they were there, to stop the steal and the president invited us. so it wasn't guesswork. it wasn't an investigation. they said it out of their own mouths in the middle of their attacks on us. >> so they don't hide it. what they did was on tv. they were bold enough -- nobody

ran. i was on the air for six hours. nobody was running like they were going to be caught. they very much -- >> they taped theirselves. right, they filmed themselves. that's how some of them were caught. what do you think -- and again i am not lawyer, i am not a federal prosecutor, but what do you understand the process to be bogged up in? >> i don't know. i am not a lawyer either and i won't even pretend to be one and i am not discrediting anything that the department of justice is doing. you know, they have a job to do. i am sure they take their job seriously as i take mine. but i don't know. i guess we will see soon. >> right. >> we will just wait and see. >> and i guess my other question for you is what is -- what are the stakes of not holding the people who planned that day, cheered that day, wanted to be there that day, that day doesn't exist without donald trump

saying come to washington, we'll be wild? >> think about it. what would have happened if they succeeded that day? what would have happened if they did hang mike pence or shoot nancy pelosi? what happens if they did do that? i think that's what the danger is, like what if they succeeded? i mean, we can all imagine, you know, congresswoman -- what their ultimate plan was and what could have happened should that have -- should they have succeeded. and that's a scary thought, potential of having a president -- a dictator almost. like that's a scary thought. it's kinda like the death of democracy. >> that's what they wanted. they told us, right? >> they said it. >> they told us. i want to ask you more about the bright light that i know you are for so many people around these questions of mental health. i have to sneak in that quick

break. could we have that conversation? >> yes. >> when we come back we will have that conversation. that is something we see -- we see the strength and we see the courage and we see the bright light that he is, but i think anyone that has grappled with mental health knows that's not the day-to-day reality of living with trauma now more than two years after january 6th. and think freedom for our lifetimes. the new op-ed in "the new york times" boils it down to four things that explain every move the gop makes these days. the panel will join us later in the program. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. where. . (man) ah ha (vo) 26 people will go all-in (woman) yes! (vo) this family will get two bathrooms. and finally, one vacationer will say... (man) yeah, woo, i'm going to live here... (vo) but as the euphoria subsides, the realization hits...

i've got to sell the house. (all) [screams] (vo) don't worry, just sell and buy in one move when you start with opendoor. “oh wow.” (vo) oh yes. start with an all-cash offer at opendoor dot com (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and your enflamed eyes are so watery, they need windshield wipers, it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com. that's treatt-e-d.com. ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin? for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle. - you like that bone? i got a great price on it. - did you see my tail when that chewy box showed up? - oh, i saw it. - my tail goes bonkers for treats at great prices. sorry about the vase. - [announcer] save more on what they love with everyday great prices at chewy.

so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. suffering from sinus congestion, especially at night? the uk's #1 skincare try vicks sinex for instant relief that lasts up to 12 hours. vicks sinex targets congestion at the source, relieving nasal congestion, and sinus pressure by reducing swelling in the sinuses. try vicks sinex. as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network, with no line activation fees or term contracts...

saving you up to 75% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities™.

there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the january 6th select committee's public hearings will be remembered for the ages as some of the most searing and consequential testimony from cassidy hutchinson to shea moss and countless others in between. millions of americans watched were captivated as the testimony burst into their homes throughout the summer and fall last year. it's worth remembering that the january 6th select committee's public hearings began with what we have been talking about. the testimony from four law enforcement officers who responded when wan angry mob stormed the capitol. testimony that chronicles not just the hours of hand-to-hand combat but the deeper psychological injuries. >> more than six months later, january 6th still isn't over for me.

i have had to avail myself of multiple counseling sessions from the capitol police employee assistance program and i am not receiving private counseling therapy for the persistent emotional trauma of that day. i know so many other officers continue to hurt both physically and emotionally. i want to take this moment to speak to my fellow officers about the emotions they are continuing to experience from the events of january 6th. there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking professional counseling. what we went through that day was traumatic. >> perhaps the most important words uttered. that, of course, is the man we have been talking to, author and presidential citizens medal recipient officer harry dunn who has made it part of his mission to speak out about this, this tough stuff, the lasting emotional impact of january 6th and broaden the conversation about mental health for every one of us. it is in some ways this incredible public service that

you're doing. i mean, and when you look over to your other officers, when you -- i remember the first time i saw it, it made me -- i almost can't watch it without getting emotional, that just to say it outloud that we were hurt that day and, of course, we need help, is this unbelievable act of courage. >> it shouldn't be, you know? it shouldn't be. but, yeah. i acknowledge that sentiment. but this is where we are now. it shouldn't be a big deal to say i am hurting, i need help, but this is where we are now and it's really unfortunate. >> i think there is something about you that lets everyone into their own trauma or their own pain because you do it on twitter, you check in with your fellow officers and i think everyone sees you as up, as this

beacon, but there have to be days -- you talked about there are no flashbacks because it hasn't receded. how are you doing? >> well, last night at the awards ceremony when they were introducing us they played a couple of clips from the combat, from our testimony, and it was very emotional. miss sicknick, who was there also, she received brian's honor, posthumously, she started sobbing and i was sitting next to sergeant gonnell. it was like a sad moment even though it was like a glorious occasion, you know, being celebrated, but, you know, you don't realize how much you are really hurting until you are facing it. like, wow. so that's how i know this ain't over. i still have those moments where i'm like, man, this is just too much. >> it is too much. and feels like -- it feels like you help us survive and we

weren't there. do you realize what a gift that is? >> no. i'm glad. i'm glad i am able to help people. but honestly one of the things -- like i say, selfishly, me talking about this, it helps me. it helps me heal. like i said earlier, i know people probably wish won't this dude just shut up? no, i won't shut up. i am going to continue to talk about this because it helps me heal. i feel like i am going to be that annoying girlfriend that brings up stuff -- why you bringing up old stuff, you know? >> it's not old though. i mean -- >> yeah, 863 days. >> yeah, it's not old. i mean, i think this is, you know, i think if i have sort of a -- i think tim miller called me a dog with a bone, this, you know, accountability question. because i think that when there is trauma, when there is a crime, the healing doesn't start until the accountability piece. so i feel like part of it isn't

justice delayed. it's the healing from the trauma that has been delayed. >> that's it. it's not over yet. how do you move on and it hasn't been rectified? there is no closure. where is the closure? moving on? no, that's not -- no, you don't move on from something. you have closure. and then you -- you know, i don't like the term moving on. you learn how to live and exist with that trauma existing in your life and you learn how to work with -- live your life with that trauma still as an existence. so, no, you don't get over it. you learn how to live your life with it there. >> fred gatlinberg -- i know you were with fred last night. we talked about how some grief is so enormous there is no process you get over it. you learn to live with it. i don't want anything i do here to retraumatize you. can i play your comments from american university? >> that's fine. >> all right. let's watch this. >> people don't want to appear

vulnerable. i think that's one of the biggest things. you don't want to appear vulnerable to somebody, to anybody, especially as a police officer. we are supposed to be all right all the time. we are the problem solvers. we can't have problems. i don't mind being vulnerable. i'm 6'7" 350 and i'll kick your ass if you say something bad, right? i'm joking. no, vulnerability is a big problem. >> is it a problem for men? in particular? >> absolutely, absolutely. and the stigma about mental health is that we're always, everybody is supposed to be okay but the message is it's okay to not be okay. >> i think most of us, right, are not okay some of the time some of us a lot of time. i think this is the whole thing. i mean, this is brilliant. the vulnerability is the answer. i read anything that she has written. she studies vulnerability. how did you come to get that so

perfectly? >> i don't know. but i will tell you this. if you show me somebody that says they are okay all the time and i'll show you a liar. everybody's going through something and it could be as big as january 6th or it could be as small as -- smaller than me. what am i gonna have for dinner tonight? like everybody has these things. who are we as other human beings to minimize what somebody else is going through? we're not dealing with it, but they are. so let's just give them their space to not be okay and accept that. hey, i'm sorry that you are going through what you're going through. i hope it gets better. that's not a difficult concept. we're so worried and say, hey, you shouldn't be worried about that or get over that. don't tell people how they should feel. just support them. anything i can do to help you? i hope it gets better. >> what does that look like? because i think this is the other brilliance of everything you have sort of said with your platform is that the connection

can't go away when we're not okay. >> correct. like, i wear a pin. that phrase. i must have heard it somewhere, but even subconsciously, it's okay not to be okay. i got a lapel pin, not this one, but that's what it is. we out to make it normal to not be okay. like i said, it could be, like i said, something as big as the 6th or as small as that and the connection is the empathy that we need to have towards each other. i think mara said something about empathy. why is it hard just to care about the person next to you? or if you don't, just don't say anything. don't say anything. to you, to fix your mouth to say something negative or put a person down or not help them, it's a lot easier not to say anything at all. >> do you remain optimistic?

i mean, has your journey and the people you have met and connected with made you feel optimistic or concerned or both? >> both. i do appreciate the optimism more. you know, you ask ten people if you like my shirt, and nine people tell you yes, it's -- you're incredible. one perp says, no, i hate it -- >> you obsess over the one. all of us. >> we do that about anything. yes, i really appreciate more the people who say you are making a difference, and so much to the point where i can't even acknowledge them all. but if that one person -- and i'm giving that person all my attention, because it's human nature. so, yes, i am optimistic but i still have it in my mind like that one person is -- >> we all do that, right? the viewers of this program all love you and they are the best, they are the most informed, they are like down -- but there can be one person on twitter that

says something mean and i just want to tell that person that if they knew me, i'm a nice person. why do we do that? >> human nature, guess. i don't know. you find out the answer, you let me know. >> well, i want to say this. i mean, i say this to you all the time. i mean, your voice is one of the most special things to come out of covering this moment in our country's incredibly difficult challenges and the trauma and the horror of that attack. ever since i first saw you, i think every journalist feels this way. who is he and where does that sort of combination of strength and vulnerability come from. so thank you. >> i can appreciate that. one thing, like i said, i keep going back to the other officers, my other co-workers that were there. hundreds of american heroes. but one of the difficult things is afterwards speaking out about it afterwards.

there are so many people that just wanted to go back, just do my job, that's it. and that's fine. but it is -- i will toot my own horn for a little bit. it takes a little bit of strength to be able to constantly put yourself out there, make yourself a target. like you said, those one or two people on social media that's going to attack you or even on fox news where i have been a target before. you kind of get to the point, i don't care. i am going to stand in my truth and you can live in a lie. >> we love having you here. will you stick around? we will bring the group out. >> sure. >> when we come back the republican party's upside down idea of freedom. what it means to them than you might imagine. we will explain after a very short break. harry dunn sticks around. don't go anywhere. harry dunn std don't go anywhere. t won't let me down. even up here! (woman #2) with an unlimited plan that's truly right for me.

(woman #3) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man #2) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon, the first and only plan where you choose what goes in, from apple music to disney bundle. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. on the network you want. because it's your verizon. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. when you sleep more deeply, you wake up more energized. introducing purple's new mattresses our unique gel flex grid draws away heat, helping you fall asleep faster. it relieves pressure for less “ow,” and more “ahhh.” and instantly adapts as you move, without ever disturbing your partner. amazing. sleep better. live purple.

save $800 off mattress sets at our memorial day event. visit purple.com or a store near you. that's some bad luck brian. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general. meet the outdoorsies. wayfair's outdoor deal experts. so today is your lucky...day the gardener... goes to wayfair for gardening basics that... aren't so basic. the entertainer... her place might look expensive. don't let it fool you. and me, the lounger... i get just what i need with a tap on the wayfair app. get outdoorsy for way less at wayfair. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ [ kimberly ] before clearchoice, my dental health was so bad i would be in a lot of pain. i was unable to eat. it was very hard.

kimberly came to clearchoice with a bunch of missing teeth, struggling with pain, with dental disease. clearchoice dental implants solved her dental issues. [ kimberly ] i feel so much better. i feel energized to go outside and play with my daughter. i can eat anything. like, i don't have to worry. clearchoice changed my life.

it's not freedom when you tell a woman what she can do with her body as he is known to do. it's not freedom when he gets to tell me what books my kids are allowed to read in school. it sure as hell isn't freedom when he says, yeah, y'all can vote in pennsylvania, but i'll choose the winner. that's not freedom. this a man who is trying to take away our freedoms, undermine the rule of law and disturb the constitutional order. >> it's all a contradiction.

the political party that seeks to brand itself as the freedom party is acting every day in nearly every way big and small to seize freedom from americans. the subject from jamal buoy with a twist on fdr's address, he identifies four freedoms espoused by the current republican party. the freedom to control, to restrict the bodily autonomy of women and refres existence of anyone who doesn't confirm to gender roles. there is the freedom to exploit, to allow the owners of business and capital to weaken labor and take advantage of workers as they see fit. to sensor, that threaten the ideologies of ruling class. menace, to carry weapons wherever you please, to brandish them in public, to turn the right of self-defense into a right to threaten other people. joining our conversation errin

haines, msnbc contributor and editor of the 19th. eddie glad is back, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university. and joining harry and me basil is back, democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college. i start with you, my friend. >> it's an extraordinary piece and hits home to me because i am a trustee of the fdr presidential library. these freedoms we talk about all the time, for the record, it's freedom of speech, freedom from want, freedom of worship and freedom from fear. and this is particularly important conversation because that speech that fdr gave was given on the eve of the u.s.'s entrance into world war ii. so it was an opportunity to bring the country together. only a few years earlier in 1936 in a renomination speech for the presidency he talked about the impact of "the gilded age" and how the incredible income and equality came from that that created the depression and we

needed to come out of that together holding hands together moving forward. everything he was about wags bringing the country together. in fact, in 1932 african americans largely voted republican. they voted democratic in 1936 because of his record. largely. having said that, today's republican party and their freedoms, personal freedom, parent freedom is anything but that. it is about division. it is about the restriction of rights as was teased earlier. and it's proven that a person, a party or a message and agenda can actually unite the republican party today is not about that. it is about dividing. it is about the politics of pain. to me, not even trying to bring back those african american votes that they lost 100 years ago. they are content upon just creating this anger and frustration and actually dividing based on that

inequality and not trying to actually solve problems. it's not about growth. it's about they are okay with attrition. they are okay with hacking away parts of the american people that just don't agree with them. >> i mean, eddie, to build on some of that, the republican party's move away from anything resembling autonomy and freedom is the most underreported and potentially politically dramatic story of the last five years, right? to become a party that says outloud they want to be right there in the ob/gyn office with you. that was dr. oz. desantis. they want to be right there in the pediatrician's office with you as you grapple with whatever medical decision as your trans daughter is making. they want to be in the gynecologist's office, inside the pediatrician's office, they want to be inside the school while children are under their

desk because they are in their third active shooter drill of the semester. they are done approximating anything resembling freedom. >> absolutely. almost as if the libertarian wing of the republican party has morphed, transformed into only one real serious liberty, and that is the liberty to hate, liberty to grieve. you know, to express grievance, express fear and the like. so those elements of the traditional republican party that i grew up with, the corporatist wing, libertarian wing, values whipping and nativist white supremacist wing collapsed into one frankentine-like monster. it's important to understand what basil said. against the back droch of the four freedom speech, january 6th, ironically, 1941, he has to give voice to that because in is the 39 the largest rally of nazis occurred in madison square garden in the united states. he has to give that speech against the threat that hitler

and nazism represented against a threat the attack against labor, the attack against women. in other words, the freedoms that the republican party is articulating today, the freedom to control, the freedom to sensor, the freedom to exploit, the freedom to menace, that aspect of america has always been its underbelly. it's just the current republican party has turned it over so we can see all the barnacles. the question is, will we articulate our values in the face of it just as fdr did? we have to ask the question. what are those values in the face of it? >> and i think, look, i keep thinking of freedom of the press. errin haines, you think about how fox intended to defend itself in the lawsuit against dominion. they were going to wrap themselves in the first amendment and say the first amendment gives us the right to knowingly broadcast falsities with actual malice. of course, even fox abandoned that argument for legal and

reputational reasons and settled for close to $800 million. but everything has been perverted to this place where it doesn't resemble freedom at all. >> yeah, and i think that's exactly what we are talking about. look, the 2024 election in recent cycles has been about competing ideas around a lot of things, including freedom, right. so we have two different ideas of freedom coming from the republican and the democratic party. one, that i think we know is disingenuous. the things that jamel is talking about is that they make other people less free, less safe and less equal. and we know that this is what trump promised as a candidate. it's what he delivered in 2016 when he took auftd office and it's what the gop is now carrying out under the banner of trumpism. trump only tapping into a sentiment since before he was president and remained since he left the white house.

it was just that during his tenure we saw him and you saw other national republicans really take this rhetoric from politics to actual governing and it's what he is promising. we saw in the cnn town hall, it's what he is promising if he is sent back by the voters to the white house. >> you experienced this up close and personal, that to trump, freedom of assembly meant the freedom to storm the capitol. armed with crude weapons and attack the capitol law enforcement officials protecting it. >> i can't really speak to the history of the country like these two gentlemen. >> nobody can. neither i. >> but i can talk about the time that i have been at my job and i have seen the peaceful first amendment protests. that pressure cooker, i believe that we are in now, that trump is constantly adding elements to, to make the pressure even more, which ended up on january

6th exploding, it's kind of like he is redoing it again, adding things to that pressure cooker. the violence that everybody's allowed to have a difference of opinion. when it oppresses people that goes against the constitution. one thing that's interesting. everybody talks about this indoctrinating our kids. i see kids walking around at the u.s. capitol with let's go brandon shirts on. they can't be seventh grade, eighth grade. you talk about indoctrination of kids. i guess it's only a big deal if it's not something that you agree with. if it goes against -- if the adults are saying it, yeah, let's do it. but if it goes against what they are saying, it's just so hypocritical, which is common place now in one party or the other. >> it is amazing. all right. no one is going anywhere. we have to sneak in a break. we will all be right back. stay with us. a break. we will all be right back. stay with us

so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing!

hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. when you're ready to go but static and wrinkles are like, nooooo! try bounce, it's the sheet. less static. less wrinkles. more softness. more freshness. bounce. it's the sheet. when the davises booked their vrbo vacation home, they didn't know about this view. or the 200-year-old tree in the backyard. or their neighbors down the hill. but one thing they did know is exactly how much they'd pay. because vrbo is different. you see the total price up front. of course, it's good to leave room for some surprises. boo! ♪ progressive makes it easy to save with a quick commercial auto quote online.

so you can get back to your monster to-do list. really? get a quote at progressivecommercial.com. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and the pain in your eyes burns like a red-hot chili pepper, it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com. that's treatt-e-d.com. - double check that. eh, pretty good! (whistles) yeek. not cryin', are ya? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question? - are you a certified financial planner™? - yes. i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. find your cfp® professional at letsmakeaplan.org. your brain is an amazing thing.

but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. we're back with aaron, eddie, basil and harry. may question to all of you is the same one. how do we keep this focus, this truth on our politics day in and tay out? >> a couple of things. one is a greater understanding of history. i am a history buff. >> everything. >> it is everything. it's not alternative facts. it's not, you know, trying to figure out, well, you know, this

book is more right than that book because we can have an argument all day about sort of the path forward. but we have to move forward. that is the bottom line. what the republicans seem to be about today is expanding upon and reinforcing this racial hierarchy. what do we think about the four freedoms? that's not what that speech was about. it was about actually bringing more folks into the tent, into this thing that we call community, which is -- in that moment was described as america. and the forces that were coming to battle that. i don't have any illusions that we are not -- that we are really there. i know fdr was flawed. but there are good people doing good things trying to move us in the right direction and those folks, those voices should be empowered and elevated like yours, like yours, and realizing that we have this shared history that we can celebrate together and move forward.

but without that, if we continue in our silos, if we don't teach young people the right way or invest in civics education to make sure that we are all engaged in mobilizing, we're just going to continue to be a fractured society. >> eddie and i, i think basil hit on it, right, we have to move forward. i think the republican party is on the record making clear that it does not. >> absolutely. and we have to articulate a counter vision that's powerful, that's compelling, that convicts us to fight for that vision, right. so we have to be freedom dreamers. we have to dream beyond the constraints of now. we also have to understand the contradictions. i was thinking really quickly, john adams said to king george, we will not be your negros. at the very moment in which he is giving expression to freedom, it's predicated on an intimate understanding of un-freedom. once we see that connection, now we can dream differently. if we don't, we are a caught.

we are trapped. permanently docked at the station. >> how do we keep the ideal in front of us and not get bogged down in all that is disconcerting and distressing? >> by doing just what basil was talking about, reminding people that, you know, yes, you did have some 70 million people voting for president trump, supporting kind of trumpism in 2020, but he did lose. there are things that are different, you know, in the years since he was able to take power, wield power and institute so much of the culture wars that have really gone from rhetoric to policy in this country, right. so i think some people were alarmed to kind of see the response that former president trump got in that town hall in new hampshire, but as i read my last -- wrote in my last column, that is not representative of who most americans are.

so keeping that in mind, i think that's important to kind of put things in context for people. but, look, also just as basil said, the past is present and none of this is happening in a vacuum. i said it before, the culture wars are not new. what is new is that the culture wars are being translated from rhetoric into policy. this is happening with governing now and that's a dangerous part. businesses have always been involved in politics. hello, campaign disclosure reports. what's new now is that businesses are not just talking about -- they are actually weighing in, taking positions and that's making them a target against, you know, for republicans in this country right now. >> i want to give you the last word. i want to ask you the same question a slightly different way. what do people need to understand -- it's not a game. elections aren't sport. politics aren't like rooting for your team. there are life-and-death consequences. >> staying on key. i will interject my positivity.

>> please. >> you have to stay motivated, stay encouraged, stay in the fight. i can't help but think about john lewis what he went through, the things he has been through and he is still, to his last days, was in the fight trying to fight for equality and fight for making the country better. those loud voices telling you to stop and shut up and tell you that you're wrong, they are -- they are loud. you could succumb to them. but it's important to surround yourself with like-minded people and try to block out that noise because there are so many people in this country counting to-maybe unfairly, one person. two people. it's this weight that we have on our shoulders. but it's there. so we have to keep it up. we have to keep fighting because not only other people, the entire country is depending on you for -- to keep to go what you are doing, to do what's right. just simply doing what's right. so stay motivated. it's hard. it's really hard. but it's worth it. >> thank you so much for being

here. we are going to get you a regular spot at this table. aaron hayes, eddie glad, thank you all so much for having this last conversation in this extraordinary week in american politics here. we'll be right back. week in amen politics here. we'll be right back. than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. at t-mobile, your business will save over $1000 bucks. what are you going to do with it? i could use a new sign. with t-mobile for business, save more than $1000 bucks versus verizon. and get the new samsung galaxy s23 plus free with no trade-in required. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪

jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ ♪ the little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ give your small business one tech solution ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ that checks all the boxes. it's all here with the comcast business complete connectivity solution. peace of mind with cyberthreat security. the power of the largest, fastest reliable network. plus, save up to 75% a year with comcast business mobile. the complete connectivity solution.

from the company powered by the next generation 10g network. get started for just $49 a month. and ask about an $800 prepaid card. comcast business. powering possibilities™. thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we are grateful to be with you. hi, ari, happy friday. >> happy friday. have a great weekend, nicole. >> thank you, s m