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us this hour. this is the video that former trump attorney rudy giuliani called the smoking gun of the 2020 election. mr. giuliani claimed the georgia election workers in fulton county were stuffing ballots into suitcases and passing around usb ports like they were speaking, quote, vials of heroin or cocaine. mr. giuliani said this illegal activity was obvious to anyone. turned out it was all a lie. the workers in this video we're putting ballots in secure lock boxes because they were wrapping up for the night and need to keep them secure until the next day. what giuliani told his legions of followers were usb ports filled with nefarious information, that was actually election workers passing out mintz, ginger mintz. and as wild as giuliani's

claims were these were real people and so his lies had a profound impact on their lives. here's ruby freeman, and her daughter, shaye moss, two of the people giuliani publicly named, telling the january six committee how giuliani's words changed their lives. >> a lot of threats wishing death upon me and telling me that i will be in jail with my mother and saying things like, be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> i get nervous when i have to give my name for food orders. i'm always concerned of who is around me. i have lost my name and i have lost my reputation. i've lost my sense of security. >> giuliani told these lies about ruby freeman and shaye moss december of 2020. they sued giuliani for a defamation in 2021 and he's has been a trying to avoid accountability since then.

he's been trying to get the case dismissed. but today, mr. giuliani was spotted at the u.s. district court in washington d. c. for a hearing in this case. so, the wheels of justice in this country turn slowly. but they do turn. and you cannot outrun them forever. now, we don't know when that case will wrap up or if and when ruby freeman and shaye moss may see justice. but in addition to the civil case, giuliani has also been he is a target of fulton county da fani willis under criminal investigation. and today brought big news in that investigation. news which suggests, loudly suggests, that legal jeopardy, not just for giuliani, but also for his old boss, former president trump -- that may be on the horizon. last month, da willis told local law enforcement to be ready for heightened -- possible criminal indictments

between july 11th and september 1st, indictments she thought might provoke such significant public reaction of the indictments could be a threat to the courts safety and out of her legal team. well, today, that timeline got even tighter. the new york times was the first to report that fani willis has told most of her staff to plan to work remotely from the last week of july till the first three weeks of august. most of the judges in the downtown atlanta courthouse will apparently be away during the first week of august for a judicial conference. but willis is asking those judges not to schedule any trials during the two weeks after that conference, the week starting on monday, august 7th and monday, august 14th. why could that be? office staff, stay home. judges, stay home. law enforcement, get ready. in other words, fani willis is planning to announce something so big between the end of july in the first three weeks of august, that it poses a significant security threat to a significant number of people.

willis's office has been investigating trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election in georgia for more than two years now. and two days ago, we learn that yet another one of trump's lawyers may be a target in that investigation. that followed reports that at least nine of trump's 16 fake electors from georgia have been granted immunity in the investigation and they are cooperating with prosecutors. the rest of those fake electors, including the chairman of the republican party of georgia -- they presumably remain targets of the investigation. so, fani willis appears to be casting a very wide net here, looking at not only the big fish, but all the little fish you could potentially flip and testify against others. but would indicting any of those targets, even america's mayor, rudy giuliani -- would that caused such a massive public backlash that you would literally have to clear the streets and the courts for it? all of the signs here point to

the architect of the big lie being held to account at some point between the end of july and the first three weeks of august. mark your calendars. joining us now are former u. s. attorney for the middle district of georgia, michael moore, and katie phang, host of the eponymous katie phang show, right here on msnbc. katie phang, it's good to see you. -- nobody is misreading this, right? it's a neon sign, rather than an arrow, that points to a donald trump indictment between the end of july and the 1st three weeks of august. is that right? >> the forewoman from the special grand jury, what did she say? it's not rocket science. >> not rocket science, then you're not going to be shocked, is what she says. >> i guess we are not going to be shocked. >> the forewomen aside, and i think you have there -- was a lot of psychology going on with that forewoman. this is a very big fish in the sea of issues in and around the attempts to undermine the results of the 2020 election.

donald trump is a big deal, if that is in fact what is happening. and from the sort of bread crumbs that we have gotten in recent weeks, from the fake electors, who now have immunity deals with prosecutors and are cooperating, the lawyers that have been implicated -- just the movement and momentum that we are seeing -- what is your expectation here? and how potentially damning is it that you have these cooperating witnesses? >> so, it's reading tea leaves, as you say. but i do think that reasonable prosecutors would say that, in light of the background of fani willis being an expert in rico and racketeering prosecutions, and because we've seen a wide net cast -- a lot of people forget, this has been going on for two years. >> yeah. >> give us occasion has been having two years to be able to grow. it's only lately that you've been seeing an investigation, and yet a poll back, the pullback being the immunity deals that were offered with eight of the 16 fake electors that participated in that december 2020 meeting wherein they refused to certify the

biden win. i think you see the possibility that -- i mean, if we are going to temper expectations, which we should do as lawyers, it should be donald trump, right? but it could also mean mark meadows, who is on that famous phone call that brad raffensperger -- find me the 11,780 votes. it could go as high as mark meadows, right? but the reality is -- if you have a puppeteer -- if you have somebody who studied all the motion, like any good racketeering prosecution, it's gonna be the highest guy in the totem pole. and that's donald trump. the immunity deals in and of themselves are kind of big flags for us to be looking at. and yet, they are part of his public process. they are just a part of how you chip an investigation and a prosecution. but knowing her background, her being fani willis, knowing that we are asking for the security -- it's kind of a foregone conclusion, in my opinion. you are going to see donald trump on that indictment. >> michael, you are a creature of georgia. the requests that are being made from the d. a.'s office in

terms of the courts clearing their schedules, the remote work for the prosecutors in her office, the security concerns in this very specific window of time -- have you ever seen anything like this in your time as an attorney? >> i have not. i'm glad to be with you both. i think that this is just odd. it is just a little weird thing. to be honest with you. you talk about it being a big fish. most of the time when you have a big base, you don't shout about it on top of the water with a megaphone. so, that seems to be sort of what she is doing here. a lot of these arrangements could have been handled privately and quietly. the district attorney's office itself is not very far from the chief judge's office, and he can -- sit down and say this is what is fixing to happen and you call the judges together and let them know what is going on, or this, we are going to be appearing before the grand jury. you can talk to the head of security. you can talk to the police chief. you don't have to do all this by way of some kind of public announcement. so, it is strange. and it tells me, basically, that she is conscious of the

fact that she needs to produce after two years of investigation. and i think that she is producing in the public eye so they can see that she is doing that, that she hadn't wasted -- time and money on it. -- i don't think there's any possible way that she is now going to get around that after all the sort of unnecessary fanfare. there is some value to a prosecutor in sort of coming in under the cloak of darkness and nabbing your man, so to speak. and running in with an indictment that was kept very quiet but was returned by a grand jury and announcing it in public the next day -- i mean, there's a lot of value to that. so, it sounds like she is looking at a big rico case. it sounds like she has been weaving this net, trying to circle up all the fish in the pond again. sometimes, the bigger the net you weave, the more likely you are to tangle yourself up in it. so, there's some pros and cons to doing it that way. >> yeah -- >> i'm surprised -- >> michael, that's a really

good point. just the style of the wind up, if you will, to use a baseball metaphor, is radically different than, katie, what we have seen from jack smith, right? >> and michael makes an exceptional point here. there is a pending motion that has been filed by donald trump that has not been ruled on yet, and actually have the states response that we just filed, looks shifty. and we are trump is saying, in another one of those fake electors is saying, is, look, this is so unusual. this entire special grand jury looks like it is already biased and tainted. and his whole process seems to already be skewed. and then, to michael's point, the more unusual it is, that feeds into the narrative of donald trump of, this is just a witch hunt. this is just the politicization of a law enforcement arm. and so, if you are going to have this much of a preview of what that movie is, it better be a blockbuster. >> right.

>> and to michael's point, it hopefully is a blockbuster, because everyone should be accountable. we have heard fani willis say, no one is above the law. we have heard many prosecutors and d. a. s see that, and if it's true than don trump should also be on an indictment. >> michael, to katie's point about donald trump and their legal team trying to get this whole thing thrown out, willis 's office has been very clear. basically, their explanation is, has effectively been -- you have had two years to try and raise your hand to stop this. you can't do it right now on the eve of potential indictment. do you think there is any concern in terms of his argument holding water with a judge? >> no. i mean, i really don't think there is much chance that it's going to be thrown down. i will tell you at this point. one of the main reasons is it's not even a ripe motion yet. we don't have an indictment yet. nobody has been charged. there's been some recommendation by a special purpose gtand jury and it's about his biting as a grocery

list on a sticky note. it has no effect other than the fact that they heard on. it -- testimony -- i just don't see the motion being granted. the problem will come and you and katie talked about it, it's another oddity in this case. and it's going to be stopped stacked with all these other all things that are going forward and that will be likely heard by a federal judge at some point. and i'm sure there are going to be a motion to move, perhaps, to a federal court. we are just getting started. i have said before, this is kind of like the starting line of the race. and that is part of what makes all this fanfare so odd. you don't get points for putting on the uniform. you get points for how you play the game. and we are just putting on the uniform right now. there's just no reason to be sort of buckling down and making this look like, okay, this is a done deal. i recognize that it would be because we've seen it, certainly, in january 6th. you've got folks who are going to act out on their motion. there is no question about that. but this is a little bit like a siren song, you know what i'm saying? to come to atlanta in august -- you just don't do that. and so, i think it will be an oddity. the motion, i'm not worried

about. i think he may have some good points that could be heard at a later time. but as far as jumping the gun and doing the motion, i let the judge deal with emotion right now, as to the sitting special purpose grand jury -- literally, she could take that report, put it away in a file cabinet, never look at it and say, judge, we are not going to rely on that report. we are just want to present evidence off the tape of what the cooperating witnesses say. i mean, it just does not matter. but they needed to -- and i think trump's team is just trying to take control of the ball for a little bit to call some gloves out, to let other people know that this is going to be a battle, maybe sit on a message to potential cooperators that they are going to leave things that are going to happen on the trump side. but i don't think it will -- end the case, stop, because of that motion. >> you are also never going to get to atlanta in august unless you tell them something big is going down, but that's another -- >> i just want to say something really, really quickly. because i know you have to wrap. >> yeah? the >> reason why you are seeing the --

first indictment of donald trump that involves the election. we saw what happened on january 6th. and the da, alvin bragg indictment, he's already been facing right now, that was the hush money payments, right? that is not something that i think has this much of a nexus to what happened at the insurrection on january 6th. and that is the reason why you are seeing the security precautions. that is definitely a time and a place where you would see radicalized people show up to be able to cause violence and to wreak havoc. and that is the reason why you are seeing the security precautions. >> and i think it's probably an open question, to michael's point, whether or not telling people that something begins coming down the pike actually is an incentive to bring more people down to atlanta in august -- >> but trump is going to do himself, right? >> yes -- >> it's like putting a pecan pie on a table and saying, don't eat it. i just don't understand that. i mean -- you don't call him out ahead of time and say, this is what is coming. but we don't want you to know about it and we don't want you to be here. >> yeah -- >> -- >> that's some swagger. that's some swagger. >> also, that pecan pie metaphor is not lost on me at all. michael moore, we didn't get a brunswick stew mention in --

oh, we just did. but we got pecan pie in. michael moore, partner at the moore law firm in atlanta, and katie phang, always great to have you on set -- you can always catch the eponymous katie phang show i'm always going to say that -- katie phang show, at 8:00 am. on msnbc. -- florida governor ron desantis and they graduate their way. plus, the on again, off again relationship between chris christie and donald trump. they finally have something in common again. guess what it is. that's next. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has.

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for the republican nomination in 2016, he took a lot of what you might call, incoming, from his republican rivals, like former new jersey governor chris christie. >> i just don't think he is suited to be president of the united states. >> why? >> i don't think his temperament is suited for heavy i don't think his experience is suited -- trump tower -- not worthy of someone running for president of the united states. showtime's over everybody. we are not electing an entertainer in chief. >> chris christie was, by all accounts, a trump critic during that primary, which is why it was so utterly humiliating for chris christie when he dropped out of the race and became the first major republican presidential candidate to endorse donald trump. you might remember this meme of

christie looking disstressed, standing behind trump on the campaign trail. trump returned the favor by knocking christie about his weight. reporting at the time suggested that christie was eyeing a chance to be trump's vp, or to get a top position in the trump white house. and neither one of those things happened. instead, trump humiliated christie once again when trump made christie the head of his presidential transition team, only to fire christie three days after election day. christie spent the rest of the trump administration as a tv pundit, where he waffled between his two identities as a trump critic and a trump ally. when we're christie trying to sell a tell-all during trump's disastrous government shut down, christie went on late night shows and said things like this. >> where do you think the wheels came off during the shutdown? >> the president blew it. >> when? >> when he shut the government down with no plan. in politics, we call that getting rolled.

>> do you regret at all helping this man get elected? and i will join you in this one. now -- >> good question. >> here we go. >> okay. what did you say? >> clever. and then, by 2020, mr. was christie back on the trump train, even helped trump prepare for his debates against joe biden, a decision that really cost christie his life, after christie contracted covid, likely from trump during debate prep because that is what friends are for. wait a minute. and now, for the past several months, chris christie has returned to the role of trump critic. he has called trump a puppet of vladimir putin and he criticized trump's behavior towards e. jean carroll. but his reasons for doing this -- well, they may be more professional than personal. last night, a local news outlet in new hampshire reports that chris christie is preparing to announce yet another

presidential campaign. joining us now to help understand why this is happening is mike murphy, republican strategist and former senior strategist for john mccain's 2000 presidential campaign. mike, thank you for being here. what is chris christie doing? >> oh, he is lighting a stickbut the process he could be very powerful. i was joking on twitter the first debate will be an august. and if trump shows up, and chris christie is there, i will send a moderator one of those guy dog training gloves because christie will just go for trump's throat. and he is the one guy who can kind of -- you know, his bombast is trump level. so, it's a fair fight. the other candidates may not love the distraction.

but it will be a problem for the donald. >> i guess i wonder -- because christie has said pretty publicly and vehemently he is not here to be a stick of dynamite. this is a quote from politico. i am not paid assassin. when you are waking up for your 45th morning at the hilton garden inn in manchester, new hampshire, you better think you can win, because that walk from the bed to the shower, if you don't think you can win, it is hard. he is saying this earnestly, apparently. and yet, the washington reports that 70% of likely republican voters will not consider supporting chris christie if he actually runs. >> i agree, he is not a paid assassin. he will do it for free and for fun. this is -- the secret service code names

ought to be ralph and ethel. they love to fight trump and christie has been for trump, against trump, against him again, then back for him, and -- what i think is really going on beyond the assassination part is, all these challenges to trump smell a vulnerability. now, you could not even talk about running against trump two years ago. but now there is such a feeling and a priority among majority republican primary voters, and the polling -- not to be so much anti trump, but to move beyond trump, he's a loser, he's going to lose to biden, he's crazy. so you've got desantis saying, hey, i'm younger, i have all of trump's enemies, i'm tougher, i can beat biden. i'm kind of trump light. less risk, less calories. that's one campaign. tim scott is more of a reagan -esque nongrievance - candidate, move beyond trump. he's got something to sell. and then christie we'll be the one who thinks these other guys are so intimidated by trump, i can actually go to the electorate in the early states and say, look, i will tell you whichever way it is.

this guy is a stone cold loser. you all know it in your heart. i'm a fighter. let me go and get biden. and maybe he will sell some tickets this time with that. >> you know, mike, i get that the general thesis here is trump's weak and we can be alternatives. but there is this very awkward dance they have to do between suggesting themselves as beta versions of trump while not actually criticizing him. and that, to me, seems almost an impossible line to toe. after trump's cnn town hall, which surely alienated a number of at least independent, voters if not anybody in the debate hall, the ron desantis super pac sent out a tweet that was critical of trump's performance, and then, in the hours after, immediately felt like it had to walk that back. and i don't know how you get through a primary with multiple candidates without actually taking the gloves off and throwing a punch at trump. do you think that the republicans can really feasibly execute on the strategy of treating trump with kid gloves but proposing that he is weak? >> i think it's a little different than that. and i agree on desantis. they pulled a punch they did not need to pull.

it's not that you go out and say to the republican loyalists that trump is bad. because while the loyalists are tired of trump and want to move on, they think trump has the right enemies. so, the punches have to be pretty gentle. but you don't count down to them either. but if he's too weak to be biden, you got to prove you are tough enough to handle them. christie we'll have no problem doing that he. he'll probably have overkill. but that will weaken trump. the question is, will desantis find the right way to say, the goal is more important than running a losing candidate? and take medium shots at trump? i think that will work. the movie beyond trump argument. you know, it's interesting. the best candidate politician in republican politics who has handled trump the most successfully is brian kemp, the governor of georgia, who is very popular in a key state. he's pretty much close the door to running, but he's left it open a crack. i think he could teach the other guy's a master class in how to do it. what if he does not run, it will be chris christie probably

doing overkill, which might give them benefits. and we will see if they can learn to do it and not look like a bunch of wimps. because if they make trump tiger man during the primaries, their whole argument is as you indicated, is under cut, about how he's too weak to handle biden. so, we've got to show somebody. >> yeah, in that way, christie may prove useful for establishing the upper limit of the amount of criticism that the audience will tolerate and give desantis and scott a middle ground to stake out their own claims, whatever those are. mike murphy -- >> he's kind of the -- oh, sorry. >> go ahead, go ahead. >> he's the georgia lakoff candidate. don't think of an elephant. you will think of an elephant. -- christie can make it easier for the other guys, because christie christie we'll say anything.

>> there you go, and here's the republican field. mike murphy, it's always great to hear from you, my friend. -- >> thank you. >> when we come back, florida governor ron desantis initiated a hostile takeover of new college, and today his handpicked board of trustees added insult to injury with predictable results. we will have more on that coming up next. >> [crowd chanting] so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. trying vapes to quit smoking the might feelncare like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes -

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important to have an alternate commencement on our terms, for the values that we believe in. and to celebrate the new college that we knew. >> this is our school and our graduation should be on our terms. we are all free thinkers here

and we want to be able to show up in funny outfits and express ourselves and feel comfortable and safe. >> i think that having our own space to do it on our own terms, where we are the focus, and not a political spectacle, is really important. >> our college has just kind of been taken over. so, this is kind of a first step in reclaiming something that is supposed to be a day that celebrates it for us seniors. >> last night, the 2023 class of new college in florida held an alternative commencement. there were rainbow capes and it were mermaid tails and flowers and crowns, and shiny boots and gold spandex. now, the official new college commencement ceremony, that was scheduled for today -- tonight, actually. but, like so many other official parts of new college these days, it had nothing to do with what the students wanted or what the school has actually been about. that is because, since the start of this year, governor ron desantis has been focused on changing the very essence of

the school, refashioning it from a progressive liberal arts college to a conservative christian institution, by gutting its board of trustees, changing its academic offerings, denying tenure to certain professors, and putting a desantis spin on the graduation ceremony itself, which meant that, tonight, for the official commencement at new college, the one organized by desantis allies, the keynote speaker was dr. scott atlas. dr. atlas is the radiologist tapped to be part of donald trump's covid response team in 2020 despite the fact that he had no public health or infectious disease experience. his specialty's medical imaging. regardless, dr. atlas is the one who proposed herd immunity has a national strategy to fight the pandemic. he also advocated against the use of masks in public spaces, and he was the subject of an open letter from a group of doctors, where he used to teach, who criticized him for falsehoods and misrepresentations of science. so, that was the keynote speaker picked for the official

new college graduation ceremonies tonight, the inspirational voice to send off the graduating class of 2023. >> i was asked to help our country during the biggest health care crisis this century. >> -- >> after a day of meetings in the white house, i was asked by jared kushner to help advise the president. >> -- [applause] >> and i replied, well, okay, but this is what you are going to get. i will never agree with something just because somebody else tells me to, no matter who that is. >> you can hear the audience booing quite audibly. and the chanting and the interruptions went on for quite some time. students also organized a plane to fly over campus with a light-up message on its wings weeding save new college. now, it is not clear whether will be possible to save new college from governor desantis and his allies.

he has got all the money and the power you can have in that state. but the students at the school are not going quietly into the night. for their commencement ceremony, and when that was not filled with moving from the audience, the students picked their own keynote speaker, the civil rights activist maya wiley, who told new college their fight is the fight for the country. >> your strength has not only mattered to you finding your full cells and your full voices and protecting it. because what you have done has stood up and said, i'm going to speak. you are not just standing for yourselves. you are standing for all of us. >> [applause] >> maya wiley joins us to discuss what's happening happened down there and what's happening in florida right after the break. stay tuned.

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♪♪ whenever heartburn strikes, get fast relief with tums. its time to love food back. ♪tum, tum tum tum, tums♪ >> you have had to be strong in the face of a few who would tell you that you can't read what you want to read. that you can't speak what you want to speak. that you should get in line with an ideology that is not yours. and call that, and call that freedom. >> that was civil rights activist, it maya wiley, last

night addressing the graduating class of new college in florida as the keynote speaker for the alternative commencement ceremony that students put together to protest governor ron desantis's hostile takeover of their school. new college has become emblematic of the governor's war on woke, which extends to the college curriculum, it's teaching staff, its board of trustees, and even its official commencement speaker this year. trump, covid adviser, dr. scott atlas. joining us now is maya wiley, she's an attorney, a college professor, and the president and ceo of the leadership conference on civil and human rights. thank you for being here. >> it's so good to be with you, alex. you've done amazing coverage. >> you are doing amazing things too. what is it like down at new college right now as the walls have started closing in? the governor's hostile takeover is in effect. the students are trying every lever they can to push back. >> i think it's that last point. what i felt so clearly down there, the conversations i was having with the students, with

the faculty, with the staff, with the parents, it's all the same thing. anger. >> yeah. >> fear. right? a recognition that there are costs and powerful people who can exact those costs, because they want to stand up for their school. but there is such a determination of protecting what they love. and what they love is this, this amazing college where the faculty, the staff, the whole principle of the school is to create a community that now enables students to inquire. >> yeah. >> to ask questions. to find themselves in the most important and central ways to what college, what higher education is supposed to be. and to create a community, because they are a community. they support each other. that was so palpable. it was so clear to me that they were not giving up. the students were telling me

they are joining their alumni associations. the alumni are actively involved in protecting what they love about this college. it was inspiring. >> yeah, i just have to take a moment to sort of try and wrap my arms around the ridiculousness of the two ceremonies. not that yours was ridiculous. but here you are, the students chosen representative to send them off in their graduation. and somehow dr. scott atlas, trump's covid-denying chief scientist during the pandemic is the representative that is handpicked by the desantis allies to speak to the students. do you have any sense of how and why this individual was chosen? was it literally just to own the libs at the school?

pick the most vehemently oppositional figure we can and throw them in there for graduation? what exactly was that? what was the feeling of the students that this was being forced down? >> well, i mean, i think i can only say what the students i spoke with, what they thought of it. they thought it was a slap in the face. yet another example of an attempt to indoctrinate them. right? that if this was actually about them, if this was actually about their academic careers, what they had done, what they were going to go off into and do in the world. all the things we expect from a graduation ceremony. >> yeah. >> instead, it was a political statement. i think that's the way they received it. it was one that was not even based in science. >> yeah. >> for them, right? it was a slap in the face. they weren't having it. >> the reason i think both you and i are animated by what's happening down at new college is because it is, yes, a gripping, wrenching story of people fighting against an oppressive regime that is trying to take over and stifle their voices and thinking. it's also representative of this broader battle that we're having in the united states. ron desantis is likely to announce he's running for president next week. he has publicly said that florida should be a model for the rest of the country.

i believe it is make america florida again. tom for people who know what this man has done and is doing, and what his proposals are. everything from immigration to lgbtq rights, to race, i mean, how distressing is this to you? is there one part of his agenda that is more poisonous in your mind than others? >> well, let's just say, i quoted george orwell in 1984 as part of my address. because we also had a federal judge call the laws that are being passed, the stop woke act. the attack on being able to teach our history right in our schools. our history of racism and discrimination. quoted orwell. it is dystopian. but this is the point. other states are copying it. >> yeah. >> they're saying, you can't say gay in schools. florida is going all the way

through 12th grade. a lot of the students at new college are lgbtq and have found their voice, and found themselves and their path there. so, to be in a state that is saying you can't do that, you can't allow even in some instances the book bannings of material that include lgbtq. that include protagonists or major characters who are black. that's almost 80% of all books that have been banned across the united states in the past few years, they are lgbtq or people of color content. it is literally, literally being inscribed in line now. 18 states saying, you can't teach critical race theory. which is just another way of saying we can stop you from sharing the truth about a painful history. and its implications for today, to students who are supposed to be learning american history, that this is actually about

controlling how people think and what they think, what they read, and whether or not they are getting to understand the experiences of other people. this is central to a plural democracy. it is being taken away by law. 12 states are now following florida on don't say gay. this is centrally, important to understand as a threat to democracy. it's academic freedom and controlling our young people. >> in some ways he's making america florida. maya, please stay with me if you can. we are going to get your thoughts on what is happening to american conservatism and whether indeed cruelty is exactly the point of all of it. stick with me, everyone else, hang around, stay tuned. that's coming up. mazing -expensive. so, we switched to the bargain detergent, but we ended up using three times as much and the clothes still weren't as clean as with tide. so we're back with tide, and the clothes are clean again. do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean.

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the agencies that failed to keep him and give him health -- choked jordan. those that let him go, even though they had his record of needing help, they choked jordan. the city agencies choked jordan. he'd been choked most of his adult life. he is an example of how you choke the homeless, you're choking the mentally ill. you're choking all over this city. we keep criminalizing people with mental illness. people keep criminalizing people that need help. they don't need abuse, they need help. >> that was reverend al sharpton delivering a eulogy for jordan neely the new yorker who was killed on a subway earlier this month after shouting two passengers that he was hungry and thirsty. reverend sharpton focused on the treatment of the homeless and the struggling, especially by conservative leaders who are

now celebrating the man who put neely in that fatal chokehold. we are back with maya wiley, president and ceo of the leadership conference and civil and human rights. >> -- i found rev's eulogy so gripping because that metaphor that we are choking him as a city, as a people, as a government. where does the root of this problem lie? is it in our inability to see each other as human beings? is it a system that dehumanizes people? where does it begin? >> i think it's all of the above. that's the sad part. we know, look, tipper gore was trying to get the nation to pay attention to mental illness decades ago. we have consistently avoided it. but what we also have done is consistently fail to see that we can save people if we actually pay attention to their needs. we have the money, we are the richest nation in the country. we have the ability to have the

policies that say we can make sure housing is affordable so you don't become homeless. we can make sure you get a good education. we can make sure you have enough food to eat. we can. it's not an intractable problem. the problem has been that we blame people for their conditions, even if they didn't create them for themselves. we assume it's their fault. and if you are black, if you are an immigrant of color, if you are someone who is easily not understood -- >> if you are a woman. >> if you are a woman. then it becomes easier to dehumanize you. this is the link between the conversation we were having about the attack on new college and the conversation we are having on jordan neely. it's that if we refused to be a society where we get to know and understand the conditions, that are creating the problems we have to solve, we will just say we will be blind to the problem. and refused to solve it. then, when we see the human, the human suffering that it has

created, we will blame those humans. that's what happened to jordan neely. that's what happens to too many people in this country. >> and the sort of, the gilding of the lily, of that poisoned lily, if you will, is the hero warship of daniel penny, the man who put jordan neely in a chokehold and killed him in that chokehold. the fact that the right-wing has embraced the person who killed him, it tells you something, and even darker story about american society. i feel like it's worse than just not seeing jordan neely. it's honoring the person who extinguished his life. >> this is, we have a mass shooting in a school, so we say we should have more guns in the school. we see someone at a protest, who takes an ar-15 and shoots and kills a protester. that person gets celebrated. >> yeah.

>> kyle rittenhouse. so we see a black homeless person who is scary, because that person is hungry or thirsty, and it's okay to be violent in the face of what we don't want to face. it's okay to be violent if we don't like feeling uncomfortable or fearful, and it's okay to dehumanize the person who is in need of help, or who simply is trying to protect themselves. that is what we can stop from becoming if we listen to the students at new college. >> and let them read the books that they want to read and learn the lessons that they need to learn. >> and help everyone get the same opportunities. >> exactly. empathy, knowledge, truth. maya wiley. thank you for being here tonight. it is always such an honor to hear from you and see you in

person. that is our show for tonight. now it is time for the last word with ali velshi who is in for lawrence. good evening, ali. you implied last week that who was gonna be, but you didn't tell us. maya could not be a better person to graduate. and that whole point where there is mental illness, you are not having enough -- these are just not practical problems in the least, they are uniquely exacerbated in the united states, as it relates to developed countries, but actually solvable problems. >> especially here in new york city, a city awash in wealth. and a very few number of households. >> i appreciate that you are staying on top of it, have a good weekend. >> thanks ali, have a great show. >> the validity of the public debt of the united states shall not be a question, that is america's constitutional mandate, and who in the current negotiations of president biden, and kevin mccarthy seems to be violating that? who really knows what is going on with the white house negotiations with kevin mccarthy ten days before a potential default date? here is