or this. you get paid when you win. from xfinity. home of the 10g network. today on velshi, reckless gambles, conspiracy spins and bad faith. we'll talk to -- senator chris coons about trying to negotiate with the republican party that is pushing trump fist conspiracy theories and holding the

american economy hostage. lifesaving health care denied or delayed, we will talk to one of the doctors behind a new study showing a pattern of serious health complications caused by post roe abortion ban. and a dire warning from the u.n.'s top weather and climate scientist and what we can do about it. plus the velshi banned book club goes to court. this week we'll talk to two previously featured authors of banned books who have joined with free speech activists, parents and the largest publishing house in the country and hauling book banners to federal court. velshi starts now. good morning, it is saturday may 20th, i'm ali velshi. as the old saying, goes if i don't succeed, stop following the republican playbook. you would think that after one bad election cycle the gop would have regrouped and reassessed its shortcomings so it could rebound. it's been nearly seven years since the republicans last truly significant wind.

donald trump's electoral college victory in 2016. since, then the losses have kept piling. up a blue wave help democrats take back the house in 2018. two years later, joe biden took over the white house in key victories and both of the georgia senate races gave democrats control of that chamber as well. although republicans did take back the house last november, this predicted red wave never materialized. the republicans delicate coalition was exposed by the bitter 15 round battle for the speakership last january. there continue to be warning signs for republicans in smaller elections. on tuesday, the democrat, donna deegan, won the mayor's race in jacksonville, florida. it's a surprising victory in what was america's largest city with a republican mayor. until now. it is a historic win, not only is she the first woman to be elected mayor of jacksonville, she's only the second democrat in 30 years to hold that position. it is clear and understandable why republicans lost in these

races, since trump's presidential victory, extremist wing of the republican party has trafficked a hyper partisan rhetoric across every level of american politics. they dabble in the so-called culture, wars which are not worse at, all their more actively described as a tax on the lives of livelihoods of all noble and marginalized americans. these kind of attacks energize some sort of base, but they are also very divisive and often downright unpopular with a broader base of the american electorate. it's not most republicans, but because of how fragile into stowe into the republican alliance is, that party and this country's extremists are hold sway around pivotal issues that can decide elections. that has been evident most over the issue of abortion. in the 11 month since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, republicans have lost numerous races because they haven't shifted their stance on an issue that we have known for decades is unpopular. or is popular with the american -- supporters of abortion rights

remain vigilant while republicans continue to push for draconian measures to choke off access to abortion care across the country. this, week people turned out to protest for abortion rights in nebraska, where 12-week bans were pulled it into an anti-trans bill that the state legislature passed yesterday. in north carolina, protesters showed up on the capitol as the republican super majority voted to override governor roy cooper's veto of the states own 12-week abortion ban. republicans in neighboring south carolina are still determined to push through an abortion ban, despite the fact that some of their own members thwarted an effort to do so for the third time just a few weeks ago. on the national level, the extreme right wing of the gop, the chaos caucus, is threatening to push the country into an historic default that would have devastating consequences for the united states and the global economy. even as the white house and gauges in discussions to avoid the possibility with less than two weeks before the june 1st deadline.

members of the chaos caucus are continuing to hold the american economy hostage, refusing to allow our debts to be paid without a separate deal to cut america's spending. there is a time in a place in a process for that important discussion. congress has the power to appropriate the budget for the federal government that does not involve bringing america to the brink of economic disaster. yet, as the worst-case scenario default continues to loom over the country, republicans on the so-called weaponization subcommittee wasted several hours this week on a hearing. the committee, chaired by ohio republican, jim jordan, touted that it would feature fbi whistleblowers who had information about the agencies bias against conservatives. interesting, right? well, turns out to be less interesting than advertised. two of the three self-described whistleblowers where fbi agents who had had their security clearances revoked, because they undermined the agency's january six investigation with baseless right-wing conspiracy

theories about the insurrection. extremist republicans are a very loud and disproportionately influential minority, who would like the rest of us to believe that they are actually part of what we used to think of as the silent majority. but that is not the case. the positions that they hold our untenable for the republican party and for the country as a whole. they remain relevant and influential because of donald trump. the de facto leader of the gop caucus -- chaos caucus who has given the staff of approval over these extremist positions over the past week. bragging that he was quote, able to kill roe v. wade. imploring republicans in all caps to, quote, not make a deal on the debt ceiling unless they get everything they want, including the kitchen sink. and characterizing himself as a victim of, quote, the complete weaponization of justice. i feel like stopping there in letting that sit for a second. but i will actually have a conversation. joining me now is one of the members of the house select committee on weaponization, the

federal government, the democratic congressman from california, john garamendi. john, it's excellent to see you. i had such interesting, although misguided hopes about this committee because all americans, no matter where you are on the political spectrum, should be very interested in making sure that the government is not weaponizing against people. but try and hope, as one might, that is not what your committee has been dealing with? >> no, not at, all this committee is simply a committee with the most radical elements of the party in control of it. jim jordan and his cohorts, they all designed to protect trump and attacking investigations that are underway. it is a perfect example of deflection. are they going after these three we fbi agents that were disciplined? because they were touting conspiracy theories because they were not doing what they were -- their job. and deflecting away from the fact that donald trump used the

justice department and the fbi with william barr, the attorney general, for four years to protect trump. so anyway, it is a hoax, it's a waste of time. and there are legitimate things that we should be looking at. the federal government has a responsibility to investigate to make sure that our nation is safe. domestic terrorism is a real issue in america. we were investigating it and they should. jim jordan ought to get it straight and stop using this committee as a weapon against the law enforcement agencies. >> let's talk about something else i mentioned in the opening, it's the debt ceiling situation that we are in. you, tweeted there is no winning hand when you are talking about default. it makes, sense right? i don't even think there should be called a negotiation because paying your bills is not negotiable for you in your life, or me and my viewers in our lives. so with what is this thing that

is happening? and is it really an attempt to cut the budget in ways that republicans want to cut it? or is it jim jordan -- i'm sorry, kevin mccarthy not actually having control over his caucus? >> well, certainly he does not have control over his caucus. his caucus is bought by the 12 maga radicals. the extremists, jim jordan among them. they are running the. caucus his entire speakership is depended upon their votes. and if they don't get their, way we'll, we at any moment they could pull them off the speaker's chair. so, yes it is a real serious problem that we have with regards to the ongoing debt limit. the debt limit should not be an issue. three times during the trump administration the republican simply passed it without even saying a word. it just happened in the course of a normal level slate of process. now they want to use the debt limit as a fog horn. and, what we need to know, and what would probably should be aware is exactly what they're

asking for. they are asking for a 20% cut in all federal programs, except social security and medicare. and those programs, they have other plans to radically change the social security system. so what they are doing is using the debt limit as if foghorn to leverage in some portable policies. for, example we have a climate crisis. it is addressed in the inflation reduction act. with 360 billion dollars over the next five years, to move this country into a green renewable economy, away from coal and oil. all of that would be repealed, including a tax increase on the 50 largest american corporations that pay zero taxes. is there is a 15% minimum tax. it would be repealed. and there's also a tax increase on the super super wealthy. that would be repealed as well as all of the health programs

that are in that legislation. and the cuts, not only for this year, but ongoing and to the year -- it is a radical budget appropriation program they are using the debt limit as a leverage to get what they want. which is the wealthy get wealthier, and the poor get poorer. when >> there is a budget and appropriations, debate there always has been. republicans actually control a lot of that process right. now that is the place for that. but i think you draw a picture that's very important for my viewers to understand. first to cut taxes on the wealthy and on corporations, then you see your revenue drop. so you see your deficit balloon. then you say oh my, gosh we're spending too much on people who get medicaid. and, snap temporary systems, we gotta cut that and make work requirements. hold, on you start of the revenue problem by cutting the taxes on the wealthy and corporations. you have to balance the budget. there's two ways to, do it spend less, or taken more.

>> exactly, you had it right on the. head go back to 2017. trump arrives in office and within three months, with absolutely no reason whatsoever, the trump tax cut, seven trillion dollars over the decades. seven trillion dollar tax cuts. all to the benefit with -- 90% of all of that went to the top 1% of america and american corporations. it was horrendous. it was the worst budget policy. but that's what they did. 2017. that's where the biggest jump ever in america's deficit occurred. now during the pandemic, because of the rollout of trying to deal with the pandemic there is other significant increases. and now we're going at this we -- are reimposing those, taxes not all of them, but some of the taxes that were cut in 2017. and biden has been very clear. he absolutely will not agree to any tax increase on any person, any family, any less than

$400,000 a year in turning. >> congressman, good to see you, thank you for being. with us good luck in your deliberations as it moves forward over the course of the next couple weeks. democratic representative, john garamendi of california. coming up on the top of the, hour i'll be joined by senator chris coons, the democrat of delaware. plus, the back alleys of pre roe era are gone, but now, as the post-roe landscape comes into focus, women risk of dying on hospital beds with qualified doctors. standing by we're paralyzed by laws created by political extremists. we are going to talk to one of the offers of an alarming new study about abortion bans. and health care. just hours, go the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy touched down in hiroshima for the g7 summit as russia's daily aerial rampage on ukraine continues. we had to q4 and on the ground report. then i will call to the witnesses of the velshi banned book club. i'll be joined by george martin and ashley --

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ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, arrived in hiroshima, japan for the g7 summit. this morning he met with the leaders of the united kingdom, italy and india. tomorrow he is expected to address the summit of the world's wealthiest democracies. a senior biden administration for official says the united states and its allies will allow the transfer of f-16 fighter jets to ukraine, although they may not come directly from u.s. stockpiles. this news comes amid ongoing barrage of daily russian aerial attack cities far from the. frontlines including the southern port city of odessa and the capital of kyiv. the russians are deploying iranian made drones, ballistic missiles and advanced hypersonic cans, all or a dagger missiles. they fly faster than the speed of sound and were once thought to be incapable of being

intercepted. that turned out not to be the case. on monday russia launched a massive attack against the ukrainian capital. 18 hypersonic missiles were launched against kyiv. all 18 hypersonic missiles were intercepted by u.s. patriot missiles. another attack later in the week had a similar's result. the defensive capabilities paired with the f-16, which is an offensive capability, could help ukraine achieve a long desired goal of closing the skies. or at least opening them to ukrainians, as opposed to russians. joining me now from kyiv,, ukraine we have nbc news correspondent, molly hunter. molly, good afternoon to you in kyiv. russia launched another 18 drones, this time ukraine shut all of them. down while ukraine continues to have pretty good air defense, success these attacks do cause a lot of destruction. >> yes, ali, good to be with. here they cause a lot of destruction because as the air defenses have gotten better,

that means interceptions, and we've heard them late at night just after 1:00 a.m. -- we heard those explosions, and what that is is air defenses intercepting missiles and the air. that means debris. so earlier this week, 25 fragments of debris came down on the capitol starting fires, a couple of injuries, causing serious damage. i do have a couple of updates, just on this moment that we are in right. now ali, as president zelenskyy is in hiroshima as he's meeting with g7 leaders and all the other world leaders on the sidelines, we have seen unprecedented era tax which he just walked us, through we're seeing unprecedented success in air defenses. when i speak with military analysts, the air defenses cannot keep up at this level. which is of course, players didn't zelenskyy knows. this his team knows. this which is why he's in europe last week. which is why he is in japan this weekend. why he's in saudi arabia yesterday, but we are also hearing from the military about a counter offensive that they are planning at any moment. so there is a lot of momentum.

and of course, pleasant lynskey goes on the road, ali, because his team knows that his team knows that he does not come back anti-. handed a couple battlefield updates, the wagner group, the russian mercenary group fighting in bakhmut headed by afghani prigozhin, they have claimed that they have full control over bakhmut. that is the eastern city that we have focused so much on. it's the center of the fiercest fighting for the last couple of months. we got a statement from the ukrainian military that they deny that russia -- the wagner group has gotten full control. they say their forces and their units are still fighting. ali, the big question about the f-16s, of course, that was huge, exciting news here, of course, to keep up this successful air defenses. they need more both missiles, both patriot systems and of course f-16s. the big question is timing. how many numbers the ukrainian officials have been speaking to? what assets are going to come with. those what weapons are going to come with those. so there's a lot of crucial

questions that come along with this very very big important headline. >> molly, always great to talk to. you please stay safe for you and your team out there are risking your lives to continue to get us the story. we're deeply appreciative of mali help hunter in kyiv, ukraine. up, next can ukraine's goal of closing the skies succeed? can this war succeed for ukraine? we will talk about how those f-16s paired with the patriots systems could be a turning point for ukraine, and change the course of the future of this war. this war. what are folks 60 and older up to these days?

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with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv when you really need to sleep. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. you reach for the really good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. this week was a strong proof of concept that ukraine defending itself from relentless russian attacks can actually work when ukraine is provided with the right tools. in recent, days as russia intensified its offensive, ukraine was able to counter many of those attacks. it demonstrated just how valuable western weaponry can be for the country. as the u.s. agrees to allow american made f-16 fighter jets

to be sent to ukraine and to train pilots on those, jets the question now becomes, how ukraine finishes the job and brings this war to an end. joining me now is jane harmer, she's a former nine term congresswoman from california. she's distinguished fellow and president at the wilson center and the author of the book, insanity defense. wire failure to solve national security problems makes us less safe. we're here in person, which is a rare treat. good to see. you >> it's a treat for me too. >> let's talk about what we were discussing with. molly this week has been something. else those hypersonic russian missiles were thought to be very difficult to intercept. on monday, 18 of them were, launched 18 were intercepted by u.s. patriot missiles which have not been there for that long. a very expensive warren both. sides launching a hypersonic missiles and then 18 of them being intercepted by patriot missiles are tens and millions of dollars. but it worked. >> yeah, it worked, it's a beautiful thing. and china should be paying attention to because they were

claiming that hypersonic missiles gave them a huge advantage. well, maybe not so much. it also is a testament, not just to western weapons, but to the capacity of the ukrainian fighters to use western weapons. stay tuned for that new fighter jets coming their way very soon. >> so tell me how you think this changes. because ukraine needed to show something in order to -- they've been asking the west to give us everything they can give us for the last six months. we stopped short of those jets. they really made the case that if you give us the jets and brad lays and the abrams tanks, which they're, getting in the patriot missiles and the other missiles that they're getting. they're now getting the whole package. can in your opinion they win the war with the stuff we're getting? >> i think yes. i'm not a technical expert on this stuff, but i would say that with all of this stuff and the momentum on their side, and zelenskyy, the best fund-raiser in politics, able to get billions and trillions of countries all over the world.

watch him. i say. yes they have to win the war. let's understand. that from their perspective and our perspective, this is the line where democracy either stops or continues. and there is no way to stop the war unless he loses this war. >> this is going on in the, background and maybe in 20 years joe by people say joe biden brought a coalition together to defeat russia. and right now that's not top of mind for most americans. it is both a national security issue and a very expensive. thing tell me how you think about this. >> well, it is not top of, mine but it is in mind for most americans. there is huge sympathy for ukraine. and huge understanding of the sacrifice that the ukrainians are making and there's a gigantic diaspora in the united states. let's go there first. what is top of mind now is whether the crazies in congress are going to blow up our economy. and biden's ability to move in foreign policy circumstances is

hobbled by. this he needs to come back early. he couldn't go to guam, to meet with the group of nations that could help us build more bases in the region to deter china's potential aggression. that's not the only thing we should be doing, by the way. we should be searching for a trade with countries and soft power with countries. and i think he's trying to do that to. so let's not say this whole thing is all military all the time. >> so let's talk about what's going on in congress. there is a budget and appropriations process and that is always an adversarial process, even when congress is controlled by the same party as the president. but there is a real process for. that once, again republicans have decided to use the opportunity to pay your bills as the place to have a discussion that should be happening somewhere else. >> to remind, they did not use this opportunity. when trump was president, democrats help raise the debt ceiling. i was in congress thousand years ago in the 90s, when guess what? we balance the budget in four

years. and we had a democratic president and a republican speaker of the house who work together on that problem. so this is not impossible. it is just impossible now. and the fact that biden has to come home early from a well planned international trip to deal with this is really hobbling america. the biggest enemy we have isaias. >> they're only a handful of chaos caucus people who definitely won't do this the right way. there are more than a handful of moderate republicans, many of whom won in districts that joe biden carried. is there a way around this? >> yes. let's see if it happens, but many people, including me, at the moment, predict that there will be a bill that has a budget compromises in it that hopefully raises the debt ceiling for the next election, election 2024. >> they are looking for next spring. >> sure, if they are looking for five minutes from now to

keep the chaos going. some of them are. some of them are very responsible in solution it's. mitch mcconnell happens to be much more responsible. but, anyway a bill i'm urges. it would pass the senate pretty easily with 60 votes. and then in the house, it would be necessary to have a discharge petition to get it out of committee, and that would take at least five republican votes. there are at least five republicans who could lose the house reelection in if they don't do this. and then, kevin mccarthy can really rail against this horrible bill and lose with the chaos caucus. i love that. term >> were less than two weeks away from that term. republicans may come and support that. as we get closer to the june 1st, deadline great to see, you lovely to see. you >> former nine term congresswoman and distinguished fellow and the president at the wilson center. she's also the author of the book, insanity defense, why our failure to confront hard

national security problems make us less safe. the u.n.'s top climate scientists issued a dire warning this week with the world now set to preach a key temperature threshold. how one and a half degrees makes all the difference. next, on velshi. makes all the difference next, on velshi. next, on velshi. and last for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles.

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(man) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon. at the risk of sounding like a broken record. we have got another dire warning about the effects of climate change. for the first time ever, global temperatures are expected to preach a level that is 1.5 degrees celsius higher than preindustrial times. within the next five years. that is according to a new report by the world meteorological organization. this is a threshold that scientists have been warning about for years. in 20, 15 dozens of countries signed the paris climate accord, and a key tenet of that agreement is to hold global temperatures below a 1.5-degree increase above pre-industrialized levels.

this latest report by the w. m o finds the earth will likely cross that threshold by 2027, but it will be temporary. it won't cross the long term threshold just yet. but this marks an alarming acceleration of the human impact on the global climate system. if you've been at all concerned with the gradual human induced degradation of planet earth, then you are probably familiar with this figure. 1.5 degrees celsius. no, even though we're in america, and i know we're not switching to fahrenheit for this number because it's important that we all understand this exactly the same. way the temperature rise we've all been warned to avoid for all costs. this is essentially the doomsday threshold for global warming. so let's remind ourselves, why this little number matters so much. when you think of climate change or global warming, you might think about those searing hot summer days when this temperature exceeds 100 degrees fahrenheit in new york. i would another degree make so much of a difference? when we're talking about the

earth's average temperature, even a fraction of a degree can have blistering consequences. it means melting glaciers, rising sea levels, and extreme weather events. when we talk about 1.5 degrees of warming, we are talking about the earth's average temperature. scientist measure that by combining measurements from near surface air above land and ocean. the negative effects of global warming are spread around the planet. some countries burn more fat also feels that, others so it's not a uniform process. the earth's temperature will be hotter in certain areas, so the goal is to prevent a 1.5-degree increase in the earth's average temperature. so with that, said there are some places that have already surpassed that threshold. it's also important to understand that the baseline average temperature is from before the world industrialized and started burning fossil fuels. for heat in transport and factories and manufacturing. in the mid late 19 -- century the industrial revolution swung into high gear.

and the delicate ecosystem on our planet was introduced to fossil fuels. the world began burning coal, petroleum, natural gas and unprecedented rates. and that began our toxic relationship with fossil fuels. and a jump start of the phenomenon that is climate change. so what exactly will happen when the earth passes the long term threshold of 1.5 degrees of warming? the intergovernmental panel on climate change, ipcc, essentially the gold standard in climate science, found that going from one and a half to two degrees of warming could mean that sea levels will rise another four inches on average by the year 2100. 1.7 billion more people experience severe heat waves at least once every five years. and 61 million more people in urban areas will be exposed to extreme drought. several hundred million more people, by the, way could become exposed to climate related risks and poverty. coral reefs could decline by as much as 99% and almost half of

the worlds species would go extinct by the year 2100. it's 2020, three there's people around now who are gonna be alive in 2100. half the world species will be distinct. you might be thinking we've got some time before this, happens but we. don't the climate crisis doesn't start at one and a half degrees. it's already here. we've seen hotter heat wave, stronger hurricanes, larger wildfires, more severe flooding, and when the earth's average temperature increase surpasses 1.5 degrees, the situation is going to go from bad to much much worse. and, possibly irreversible. it is up to, us as, humans to bring down the temperature we created this. mass we can clean it up to. it is still possible to hold the line at 1.5 degrees if the world wins itself off of excessive use of fossil fuels. 1.5 may not sound like the end of the world, but it is certainly more than a degree of concern. concern. we could see exactly when they'd arrive

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pregnancy. and we have a frightening window into what that looks like this week with the publication of a new first of its kind study that looks at the quality of care in the post-roe landscape. the study confirms that abortion laws have, in, fact triggered dozens of health complications in pregnant women around the country. the report published tuesday is based on the responses from health care providers in states that have abortion bans in place. they are anonymous responses. these findings show that as health care providers struggle to interpret the vague language that is written into new abortion bans, they became too afraid of the legal respected come from terminating a pregnancy. even non viable pregnancies that are endangering the health of the pregnant patient. the study was conducted by two teams from the university of california san francisco and the university of texas at austin. the responses indicated that many doctors did not feel they could simply perform abortions in high-risk situations. the most common type of complication is a condition known as peak lamb, where

women's water breaks before the fetus can survive on its own, putting the patient at high risk for infection and hemorrhaging. a fetus is extremely unlikely to survive without amniotic fluid before the 20 week mark. now before roe was overturned, the standard of care was top or a surgical procedure to end the pregnancy. after row, many doctors feel that they were turning away patients with this condition for fear of violating the abortion ban in their state. the danger of this post roe landscape rivals that of the time before roe, before roe was actually a law. back then women were dying from unsafe illegal abortions from so-called back alley abortionists because qualified doctors were barred from performing abortions. now the back alleys are gone but women risk dying on hospital beds, with qualified doctors standing by, but paralyzed by laws created by political extremists. unable to provide what they know to be the best health care for their patients. abortion bans, according to the research behind this report, are written without an

understanding of what abstention care actually looks like. and without recognizing all the heartbreaking ways that pregnancy can go wrong. one case cited in the report, a patient was sent home after her water broke between 16 and 18 weeks of pregnancy in a state where abortion is banned. only to return to the intensive care unit two days later with a severe infection. that is what was likely to happen. after the doctor ultimately decided to terminate the pregnancy of, the patients who nearly died from this complication asked if she or her doctor could face criminal penalties. and this is only going to get worse and more confusing her patients in the states as this affective police state around abortion drives qualified doctors away, potentially creating health care vacuums across big swaths of this country. one survey of young doctors conducted late last year found that almost 60% of third and fourth year medical students were unlikely or very unlikely to apply to a single residency program in a state with abortion restrictions.

the biggest takeaway here is that these laws are affecting the standard of care received by all women who could become pregnant in a hostile state. when we come back in to talk to one of the authors of the study and women's clinic director who has been in the middle of this fight for many years.

before the break we were talking about an alarming new study about the post-roe landscape, showing that abortion laws have triggered dozens of health complications

for president patients, whether or not they were looking for an abortion. i'm joined by one of the researchers behind the study, katrina can, hot she's a professor at you see san francisco's collaborative research group called advancing new standards and reproductive health. he's also the author of the bill, no real. toys how culture and politics matter for reproductive autonomy. also joining, me robbyn marty, at the operations director for the west alabama woman, center she is the author of the new handbook for a post-roe america. thanks to both of you for being with us. good to see you again, robin. doctor, let me start with you. there have been a lot of people who predicted that these health outcomes would be the case with the banning of roe. but yours is the first study to demonstrate that there are women, both those seeking abortions and those not seeking abortions who have become pregnant who face adverse outcomes because of these laws. >> i think this is something everybody anticipated and the question was really about scale, and about how quickly we would see these effects. and it was quite quick.

it was almost immediate. part of the study design was based on this idea of anonymous reporting because, as quickly as we started to hear these stories about patients not receiving standard medical care, we also started to hear stories about physicians being told by their hospitals that they could not speak about it, feeling muzzled in effect. and so this study allows, through this anonymous case collection, for us to hear about some of these cases. and to start to understand the scope of the impact of eliminating the protections of roe. >> robin, you and i had this conversation last year. in your, clinic you alluded to this kind of thing happening. there are two different issues here. one is that there are women who have lost their right to get a safe abortion, and then there is a second, thing it's that all women are at risk. now i would like to say people who can get, pregnant it's more than. that there are people who might have something else going on

that aren't even pregnant -- not even viable pregnancies that are still not at risk for getting treated. >> exactly, it's a lot of irony in the fact that here is a group of people who have passed these bans say they would be pro life and pro birth, and yet the people who are being most impacted right now are the people who are having unwanted pregnancies. they are the ones who are facing the most danger right now because when it comes to people who are wanting to terminate, a lot of them are finding that they're able to access very safe very discrete medications and do it very safely that way. so the impact is on the people that actually want to have the baby. >> doctor, let me ask about where lack of clarity plays a. role in other, words is there a situation in which, if the laws were clear it would help? or is this just a situation where, as the governor of north carolina said last, week why don't you leave the medicine to the doctors? leave the choice of the? women leave the medics into the

doctors? you just cannot legislate medicine in the way that some of the states are trying to do. >> yes, one of the things that we see in these laws, and these attempts, is the failure of law to understand how medicine actually works and practice. and how reproductive health care works and practice. and while the law is often understood as something that is more black and white, medicine is inherently gray. and that is why our doctors and nurses trained for up to a decade. this is why they developed this extensive expertise, and this is why we trust them to give us the care that we need. and it's because there are these urgent situations that cannot be predicted, cannot be defined. in clear ways, but our doctors and nurses have the experience to know when it is time to intervene. when it's time to speak with the patient. and these on the ground decisions don't make any sense in a law. as you noted in your intro, there's a heartbreakingly large number of ways that pregnancy can go wrong.

the law is fundamentally incapable of being able to itemize all of those and do so in such a way that is legible on the ground in an emergency in the emergency room. and so this is a case where fundamentally, what these laws are doing, is tying the hands of doctors. tying the hands of the experts we trust. >> so let's take that one step further, robin. there are some who say this is actually worse than pre roe because pre roe, if somebody died trying to get an abortion, it was an off the books abortion. it was in a place that was not -- most people would not normally be trying to get health care. now people can die an actual hospitals with actual doctors and nurses standing by, not able to help. them i don't know if that's worse or not, but it's pretty bad. >> i would say it's definitely a worse situation than it was pre roe. and that is because of the utter failures of our hospital system in general. we have far fewer hospitals than we did before roe was put

in place in the first place. and i know in alabama we had 25 hospitals that are on the verge of closing because of lack of reimbursement because the state still won't expand medicaid. and we have a number of hospital systems now across the country that are run by religious organizations. and it's those organizations that are putting these extremist rules on who is allowed to be able to terminate a pregnancy, even under severe medical conditions. it is those rules that are telling people in alabama that -- we had a story come out of university of alabama birmingham having a patient who bleed a desperately needed abortion because she was at risk and one hospital panel said that, yes this was one that should be allowed. and the second hospital panel set. no we don't believe this should happen. when you have these disparity numbers we and these people who have to approve an emergency

medical procedure, that is how you kill. people >> doctor, you made a very compelling case that you can't enumerate all the things that could possibly happen to a woman. and again, i want to make it broader, the broader than a woman whose, pregnant anyone who has reproductive health care needs. so what is the answer? can you, on the basis of that, sue? can you just say, you can't make laws about stuff like? this is like making a lot about how many breaths a minute a person can take? it's not something you can do. but what is the remedy? >> i think what this report demonstrates, and what the huge number of anecdotes and research that is coming out of this post roe america that we're currently living in, shows us that abortion is, it is a necessary tool and reproductive health care. and rather than being banned, abortion needs to be protected. this needs to be with a tool that our doctors and nurses have available to them to care for patients. and that trying to distinguish some cases from other cases is

never going to be a safe way for us to practice medicine and for us to have the reproductive lives that we desire. >> with robin, one of the things you told me about was the fear. we just described the study -- after the procedure finally took place about whether she or her doctor can be prosecuted. that is a fear you told me. about and now any woman who has anything about them that is curious, if they don't understand from a middle purse perspective, having to do with reproduction, whether or not they are pregnant. it leads to think about. this in a country where we do not have enough health care for everyone, we don't provide it properly. that is a problem we don't need. women who are sitting at home bleeding, wondering whether they're going to be jailed by going to a doctor. >> exactly, and we know that this is not as far as the right is planning on going. just two weeks ago in alabama, there was a bill introduced that would make it a charge of murder for any person who has an abortion. so we are very hopeful that

this is not going to go anywhere. about one of the things to speak to dr. camper's, it's a statement before about how the judgment in that law is that it's not the abortion, it is the medical necessity in a reasonable doctors -- reasonable medical assumption or opinion. like, who decides what is reasonable? we know that we have doctors out there who think that you should always do a surgery for ectopic pregnancy. we know there are people who think that a person should remain pregnant and hold on to not having chemotherapy until their past the second trimester. we know there are doctors who think that vaccines are wrong. we know there are doctors who think that they cause autism. we know that there are bad doctors out there. how do they decide what is reasonable medical judgment? >> this is continuing to be a complicated issue. you help me understand a lot better. robin, thank you for. that t