for today, i'm alicia menendez, thank you for spending part of your saturday with us. be sure to follow the show on twitter, on instagram, and tiktok. that's at alicia on msnbc. that's how you will know that things like our sisters in law full hour, i'll see you here tomorrow. same time, same place, for more american voices. but for now, i handed over to charles blow who is in tonight for amy and -- hello charles. >> hello alicia, thank you so much. good evening and welcome to ayman. much >> tonight, failure to launch. two republican-led smear campaigns in with our member, plus stunning allegations, a new lawsuit against rudy giuliani includes accusations of bribes and gives an inside look at his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. then, fighting back. meet the free speech organization that is soon to block rhonda sentences efforts to ban books in florida schools. i'm charles blow in for ayman muddying. let's get started.

this week, the facts finally caught up to two republican-led smear campaigns. let's start with the mess that was thursday's hearing on the so-called weaponization of federal government. for months now, chairman james jordan has promised testimony from, quote, dozens of whistleblowers on how the fbi is unfairly persecuting conservatives. and yet, just hours before jordan's promised blockbuster hearing on that very issue was set to begin, the fbi made a shocking revelation. two of the three self proclaimed whistleblowers who are set to testify have had this security clearances revoked over a question about their allegiance to the united states, reported criminal conduct, personal misconduct, and their handling of sensitive information. so when the hearing began, it quickly descended into chaos. with democratic members on the subcommittee repeatedly calling out chairman jordan for

violating house rules by withholding alleged evidence he had gathered. >> where is the whistleblower exception in the rules of congress. >> it's the prerogative of the committee to design. the >> no it's not. it's the rules of the house. >> we have the whistleblower testimony, the whistleblower's not available to be made to the democrats at this time. >> the whistleblower doesn't make committee rules, sir. >> jordan isn't just humiliating himself with these stunts. msnbc steve bannon points out, he's also inadvertently proving the opposite of his intended point. quote, by trying and failing to make a case against the bureau, jordan is effectively giving the fbi a clean bill of political health. jim jordan's sham hearing wasn't the only public embarrassment to republicans suffer this week. the justice department finally released a long awaited report on the fbi's handling of the russian investigation from special counsel john durham.

four years, trump supporters have been eagerly awaiting durham's finding, hopeful he would uncover in anti trump deep state conspiracy. however, after nearly four years, 490 interviews, and reviews of 1 million documents. durham's investigation ended with a whimper. the top lines from the 306-page report, to fail prosecution, one guilty plea, and no new revolutions. although durham accused the fbi of confirmation bias, nowhere in the report does he actually allege that political bias. bipartisanship where the guiding factors behind the fbi's actions. despite this, of course, republicans are lifting up durham's report as the smoking gun they've been waiting for. that's because the republican party doesn't deal in reality anymore. the truth is, this week both jordan and durham's quest to

deliver a deep spate conspiracy failed miserably. their claims otherwise are not rooted in fact. there and feelings. let's discuss with, michael steele, former rnc chairman and an nbc political analyst. david henderson, civil rights returnee and cnbc contributor. and katie benner, national reporter at the new york times and msnbc crown tribute are. katie, what can you tell us about the self-described whistleblower that jordan put forward this week. >> thanks, according to the fbi, the whistleblower's themselves were involved in january 6th in ways that were concerning to the bureau. the one witness, he was at the capitol on january 6th. he was in restricted areas. he was in places he shouldn't have been. when asked about it by the fbi, he gave false testimony. so they feel this is extremely concerning, and they revoked his security clearance. another was of the whistleblower's have made statements in public and on

social media that allude to the fact that he doesn't believe that the bureau itself has done incredible work. when you have witnesses that are in opposition to the very bureau they work with, this is really concerning. particularly vis-à-vis the offensive of january 6th. this is for many people, this is going to be a blow to their credibility. for it but not for jim jordan. >> david, i want to play for you another exchange from the hearing, here's democratic congressman, dangling, his question is so-called whistleblowers over their connection to trump whistleblower, cast patel. >> mr. boyle do you know who kash patel's? >> i do. >> have you received any money from cash patel and his organization? >> i have. >> mr. -- what about you? do you know cash patel's? well >> yes. >> did you receive any money from cash patel? >> yes, he gave me a donation last november. >> a donation? >> yes. >> are you a charitable organization? >> it was unpaid, definitely suspended man trying to feed

his family and he reached out to me and said he wanted to give me a donation. >> so if you follow the money, as jordan is asking us to do right here, what does it tell us about the possible explanations of these witnesses? >> one word, charles, bias. this is always an issue in any type of corporate seeding. you have to make a determination it's why your. there you also have to make that determination each step of the way about what it is you can rely on and what you can't especially when it's coming out of someone's mouth. so, building back off what katy just said, your first problem here is, they've got a beef with their employer that they are here to offer evidence against. in addition to that, losing their security clearance. that's also a reason to question. how reliable their testimony as. then you get to the point about where they are also receiving money, which further proves that they are biased. in terms of the testimony that they're offering, and they don't have the good sense to just say, yes, i got paid. that's what you do. you shut the questioning down. you start trying to dodge the question, you just make it look worse. it looks like not only where you paid, but you know that

that's a problem in the context of the testimony that you're being asked to offer. it goes back to the point of how ridiculous these proceedings were overall. >> michael, did jordan's performance during these hearings actually help democrats prove their point that the only priority of weaponizing the government's the republican party? >> every time jordan opens his mouth he proves that point. the reality of it is there is no substance to any of this. this is just the dog and pony show. that's a lot -- it's like the worst you can come up with any world where you make stuff up. you're trying to connect dots that don't exist. you're grasping at little lines of this, little line over here about something else. none of it ever comes together. so, this idea of weaponization of the government is being done by the very people who are supposed to be investigating weaponization by, i guess the biden administration? because didn't all this

occurred during trump's term in office? it was his justice department and fbi. so, it just kind of proves the point. are you mad at trump? jim, are you mad at trump? are you mad at mr. barr? who are you mad at? what are you trying to, where was the weaponization against trump's own people by trump? that's what basically we're looking at here. >> right. >> katie, let's switch gears to the durham report. what can you tell us about the special counsel's finding? are we missing any bombshells that in misreading this report as a -- and a dad? >> i'm going to try to be as charitable to this as possible. it was a four-year investigation. it did have a few -- to self prosecutions, one guilty plea, for misconduct that had already been found by the attorney general. a doubles down on and underscores findings by the inspector general a few years ago when trump was still in office. that there were issues at the

fbi vis-à-vis the arrested investigation. at that point, the inspector general found that the people working on the russian investigation, they were moving too quickly. they were not careful. there was, you know, there was -- there were problems with applications to surveil a trump campaign advisor. these things were known. nobody thought, thanks to the inspector general, that the russian investigation was perfect. so what we've seen with the durham report is basically, he's saying the same exact thing. he saying, absolutely, these things were problem. but what's so interesting is in the prosecutions, he really wanted to say, if there was criminal behavior, vis-à-vis the way that the campaigns themselves conducted themselves. particularly calorie clinton's campaigns, he lost at trial. nobody believed that. you read the report, he still says it's a problem. he still says that the weaponization of opposition research, trying to make it into an investigation, trying to get reporters to cover it and such, was wrong. and we can debate that. but as a political question,

what do we want our campaigns to do? how do we want them conducted? at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, was that worth the four-year investigation? was it worth the money and the time and the effort? and was it worth the sort of constant drumbeat conspiracy theories that were in the ether as he was conducting this extremely long investigation? what's so interesting, is if you look at the response from the publicans, especially online, they're extremely disappointed in this report. they really feel like he did not do a good job, because he was not able to stand up the things they wanted him to find. >> david, i want you to weigh in on that. if what durham is basically doing is putting forth something to somebody else already found, misconduct that somebody else already found and the impacts from that as the lead of his report. is it aided to you? >> 100%. there's a saying in the law, when the loss not on your side, you argue the facts. when the facts aren't on your

side, you argue the law. when neither the law nor the facts are on your side, you pound on the table and you yell as loud as you can. this is 306 pages of pounding on the table and yelling as loud as you can. here's what it all comes down to, some people are going to be upset about me saying this. but prosecutors aren't supposed to lose. you're supposed to be able to prove your case beyond the reasonable doubt. anytime a prosecutor loses a case, the question should be asked, why was this case tried in the first place? that's not to say you're going to win every case, and that's not to say you shouldn't try cases that a jury is not going to convict on. but he lost not once, but twice after four years of investigating. which means he is averaging less than a case per year. here's something that is easy to overlook. there aren't unlimited prosecutorial resources. every case a prosecutor invests time into investigating, or trying, is justice that someone else can't receive. because resources are being tied up. there's absolutely nothing to show for the work that he did here, except wasted money, and

a classic lawyer trick that we see in civil cases. when you can't make your case, you just try to make good on paper hoping that other people argue it for you. opinions and prosecution arts opposed to matter. evidence is. there's a dearth of it here. >> panel, please stick around. next, a formal employee files a bomb shell lawsuit against rudy giuliani that includes an alleged cash for pardon scheme. so diabetes, this changes things, huh? hey, a lot of people in your corner including walgreens. but do i have to give up sweets? if you work out a diet plan, nothing is off limits. you dropped it! i don't know if i can afford all these prescriptions. we've got discount programs, you've got options. i'm just glad i have you to talk to about this. that's what i'm here for. the cgm, still getting used to it. let's take a look. when you need to talk diabetes, our pharmacists are here.

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rudy giuliani's former employees alleging he sexually assaulted her, refused to pay her wages, made sexist, racist, and antisemitic remarks. and discussed selling presidential pardons. giuliani spokesman said he, quote, unequivocal-y denies the allegations. noelle dunphy was first hired by giuliani and 2019 when he was serving as donald trump's personal lawyer.

the lawsuit also alleges he offered her a salary of $1 million per year, but only paid her $12,000 during her work after two years. dunfee is now seeking $10 million in -- punitive damages. the suit comes only days after manhattan jury found trump liable of sexual abuse and defamation -- my panel is back. katie, i want to start with you. do you require the team at the new york times that won a pulitzer in 2019 on reporting on workplace sexual harassment issues. given your reporting on this issue, what stood out the most to you about dunfee's case? >> you know, a couple things stood out. for one, she's very specific in her claims. she did spend a lot of time with giuliani. i think a lot of this will come down to if she, as e. jean carroll did, in court, bring really compelling evidence of giuliani's behavior towards

her. what he promised, whether he was dangling money in front of her, in order to receive sexual favors. what's interesting about carole, is she is not claiming coercion, she was actually claiming sexual assault. she was the presidents own words against him including his assertion that he could sexually assault people because he was famous. it's interesting to see what dunphy has done for the courts. what also stands out to me is that she says rudy giuliani spoke openly with her about things like using pardons in political ways, at the end of the trump presidency, things that we've reported on and we know happened. but it's interesting that she could have more can felling a evidence on this matter as well. it would be fascinating to see what comes out in court. >> mark, let's stay on this issue of selling the parties. that's part of the lawsuit. we know that in the hours before trump left office he pardoned 74 people, and change the sentences of 70 others.

how concerning is that to you that now president, former president trump is trying to be president again in 2024? >> well, that's concerning just on its face. with or without this particular controversy, it's concerning for all of the reasons we know well. i think what this particular allegation raises is just a continuing concern about how donald trump used the oval office in such a transactional way. not for the benefit of the american people, not for the benefit of our allies. but for himself. his own benefit. the fact that rudy giuliani is probably bragging about this at some point with this young woman, trying to impress her. and cajole her into whatever he wanted to cajole her into. by saying this is what we are doing. it opens a big door.

investigatively speaking. i think it's something that we are going to hear and see a lot more about, particularly if she has any evidence that she can put forward that actually corroborates that to what was just said. >> david, let's talk about that evidence a little bit. and these pardoned allegations. dunphy's attorney has said that there is no recording of these conversations -- unlike the alleged racist and sexist remarks he made. they're instead trying to corroborate this with another witness who is, lev parnas, who is also a former employee of giuliani's who's also been sentenced to crime for the -- how solid you think this particular charge is going to be? >> that's difficult to answer charles until we hear more from these people. but let me make this clear. we have to talk about this in two separate contexts. the specific context in terms of what it means legally, but then we also have to talk about it in the context of what this means in the overall makeup of

this case. in that context, giuliani has a couple problems here. the first one is, juries don't like lawyers. plain and simple. they barely like us when we're standing up in front of them arguing. they definitely don't like us when we are on trial. the only thing they like less than lawyers are liars. by the time this case gets charred trial, there's going to be any number of things that can be used to impeach giuliani based on his credibility, his ability to testify truthfully. now, the laws a game of nerves. add to that, we start talking about him selling pardons, we're not just talking about how that comes up in the context of the courtroom at this case. it may be tried on. it also means that lots of people have a vested interest in preventing him from talking and preparing this case from moving forward. which means there's going to be pressure on him to resolve it sooner rather than later. >> katie, dunfee's lawsuit comes right after the verdict in the e. jean carroll case, which ruled in her favor, by the way. will you see that maybe as a motivating factor for dunphy to come forward. could this be a new phase of

the metoo movement, kind of a litigious face? >> i wouldn't want to get into dunphy's head or talk about her motivations. based on her complaint, she feels that she is owed money, and she was miss treated. i will leave it there. but it is interesting to your point, is there going to be a new phase of litigation around mistreatment and around sexual battery, sexual misconduct in the workplace? we already have laws in many places that say you cannot sexually harassed people in the workplace. now, this is what we have seen in new york. that victims can, sort of, revive their claims against people who they say are either assailants, or somehow wrong them. and try to find a financial solution. so it will be interesting here, to see whether or not rudy giuliani believes that there is something he really needs to put behind him. and if you believe so much so that he ends up settling and paying this woman money. maybe not the amount she's actually asked for, but some

amount to resolve the claim. yes, i think if we see these claims resolved in this way, where significant payments were made, i think that it is possible that victims will say, this is a way to settle something that felt to them like a real harm. >> panel, please stick around. coming up, a man is charged after allegedly attacking two of congressman gerry connolly's staffers with a baseball bat. 's pretty simple. i kinda just want things the way i want them. (woman) i want a network that won't let me down. even up here! (woman #2) with an unlimited plan that's truly right for me. (woman #3) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man #2) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon, the first and only plan where you choose what goes in, from apple music to disney bundle. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. on the network you want. because it's your verizon. hey guys, detect this:

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but we know that he chained to the office specifically looking for the congressman. according to a newly filed affidavit by an fbi agent, the attacker told staffers, quote, i'm going to kill you, you're going to die. one of the staffers claimed the man struck her about eight times with a metal baseball that. this all follows an alarming rise in politically motivated acts of violence from the january 6th insurrection, to the violent attack on paul pelosi last fall. this week, capitol police said that threats against members of congress have gone up 400% in just the last six years. let's bring back my panel. michael, congressman connally spoke with nicole wallace on this network about how the heated rhetoric we have seen in d.c. can lead to and empower this kind of violence. take a listen to this. >> anything that normalizes violence as a part of our policy, it's absolutely wrong. it's -- to constitutional democracy.

and needs to be condemned on a bipartisan basis. unfortunately, we are allowed a creeping sense of, well, some of that is okay. some of that is just hyperbolic rhetoric. no, that counter rhetoric empowers action. >> michael, what needs to change here? >> well, what needs to change is the people who empower the rhetoric. that leads to the actions. this is a sleeping issue because a lot of people don't think it's going to happen. you see these things and you make these exhortation's publicly. but at the end of the day, you're not giving any consideration that there is some person out there who is going to take very seriously your call to arms. your call to violence. you don't think you are making that call, but that is how they are hearing it. that is one. to, to the congressman's very

important point, for me, the leadership has to rise within both parties to make sure that we put this rhetoric down. unfortunately, republicans are not doing that. you have the president of the united states, still out here perpetuating lies about january 6th. still, fomenting animosities tours, agencies of the federal government. the agents of the federal government. other institutions, because he's agreed. that is then translated for his supporters into taking actions like this. i think we have a ways to go, charles, on this front, because not everybody is taking it seriously. until it happens to other members, certainly those on the republican side, i don't see a change. you would think they would learn from the shooting of congressman scalise, for example. but here we are.

>> david, the capitol police are looking to increase their amount of field officers around the country to investigate and handle threats to members of congress. what does that say about our current country that this even needs to happen? >> you know what, it says, really, charles, that the rule of law has been suspended by some lawmakers in favor of political violence. this has been happening, let's tie it back to our first segment. talking about january 6th. but if you look at specific examples that it happened in other context, the mccloskey's, standing on their lawn and brandished firearms to threaten protesters. they plead guilty. not only does their governor pardon them, but then they get featured at the republican national convention. what message does that send? you also have situations here in texas, where someone was convicted for murdering a black lives matter protester. our governor has said that as soon as the paperwork hits his desk, he intends to pardon that person. then, not to mention situations like kyle rittenhouse, where it's one thing to celebrate the acquittal, if you happen to

agree with it. but celebrating the fact that he shot and killed someone is something else entirely. we're seeing progressively more of that. we're also seeing bringing this back to the capitol police. efforts by republican lawmakers in florida to combat proactive measures to keep people safe, and all of this is happening at a time where legally it is never been easier to own, possess, and use a firearm. >> katie, what do you make of the 400% uptick in threats against members of congress? which i just wanted to be a striking number. >> you know, it's a huge number. i think we can draw a thread from the very first statement of the show to what we are talking about now. in terms of violence to against politicians. i think what we forget is that democracy, it was built around the constitution. but it survives because of trust and faith in government. that trust and faith in government is being eroded every day. we talked about jim jordan, there was a lot of discussion about what he was saying, it

did make sense, it was observed, et cetera. that messaging is not for democrats. that messaging is for republicans. that messaging is received very differently. it is believed, and at the root of that message, he is saying, you cannot trust your institutions. they are not for you, and they are trying to undermine democracy. we are seeing more and more of that rhetoric. as we see that take hold, what you're going to see is that people believe that there is nothing legitimate about what is happening right now in politics. and it paves the way for people thinking violence is then a justifiable response to a world where you can't believe your leaders. so, i think that when we talk about things like what happened at that hearing the other day, we have to hear it not from this, not just from the point of view of, oh that was so absurd. who could possibly believe that? but to really understand that people do believe that. until there is a desire for something other than just raw power in politics, we are going

to see more and more of this violence. that's why i see that 400% number coming from. >> michael, i have a personal question for you. you've been in politics a very long time. if you are starting today, considering a career in politics with how much danger and threats politicians are facing, would you make the same choice? >> it would be very hard. in fact, it's interesting you asked that question. i'm having that conversation with a number of individuals who are considering a run for office. for public office. what we are finding, but i'm finding, is that they are kind of like, oh, i don't know. their families are adamantly no. for a lot of reasons that katie just mentioned. and david talked about, that people, that the environment is so toxic. so poisonous. the number of people we know in politics who are threatened, who are receiving voicemails

that you could not play on this air. because it's so vile. it's so offensive. people feel, they could do that with impunity. largely, because the politicians say it is okay. there is no repercussions for it. the system has never had to deal with it and confront it. so, as families and individuals who are looking to move into the public square assess this. a lot of them are assessing to stay out. at least the ones who would actually be really good public servants. right? so what we are going to be left with, are the folks you don't want in office. [laughter] right? they are the ones who are buying a lot of the crap that is being sold right now about a lot of these institutions. that's why they want to come to washington to clean it up and own the libs, et cetera. not about public service. >> truly, a sad state of affairs. really bad for democracy. michael steele, david henderson, katie benner. thank you all for your time. next, a free speech

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publishing giant, penguin random house, along with parents, authors, and nonprofit groups around america are suing a -- county school district and -- about racing lgbtq community. the lawsuit alleges a removal land restriction of these books violates the first and 14th amendments. they are asking for the books to be returned, for the district to be prohibited from removing them again. a slew of new desantis back to state laws have educators second guessing what kind of reading materials they can keep on their shelves. from the so-called, don't say gay, bill, that bans classroom discussions about sexual orientation and gender identity. to a v 1647, a law requiring all schoolbooks to be cataloged and submitted for state review. can american ceo, suzanne nossel, joins me now. -- a 28% increase in book banning during the first half of this school year alone. and we know that florida is one

of the states with the most bands. so why are you suing escambia county, specifically, as a strategy to challenge on a county by county basis. >> look, escambia county is emblematic of the pattern that we see across the country. with books being taken off shelves, in the case of escambia, at the cost of a single individual who has filled out forms -- up to 100 different books. it's quite clear, i don't think she's read the books. she's an information that is being provided by national organizations. the critiques of these books, objections to the books, are exactly what we see in other jurisdictions. and the school board has overridden, time and again, they opinions of its own review panel. a body that it has empowered to actually read the challenge to box. to make it considered evaluation, do these belong in school libraries and classrooms or not?

the panel has found value in these books, and yet the school board has swept their decision's side. overridden it, and taken the books away. it's just a really agree just, almost eye-popping example of this national pattern. we are hoping that courts assessing this lawsuit will recognize that first and 14th amendment rights are being violated. and that school districts across the country will take notice. and put the books back on the shelf without having to be sued themselves. >> a member of the escambia school board told nbc news, that she was surprised by the lawsuit, because they were simply following state law that was set by the desantis administration. what is your response to that? >> look, these laws that have been passed are very vague. that is one of the most troubling aspects, the don't say gay law is not very specific about whether a book like uncle bobby's wedding can remain on a classroom shelf. some say yes, something no.

that's how censorship works. it casts a paw. people are wondering about whether a certain book could get them into trouble. could it result in complaints or discipline? there's definitely a relationship between the legislation that has been passed at the state level. i think it's perhaps understandable that some local officials feel like they are just following the law. but if that's the way this law works, then it too is violating the first and 14th amendments. >> the escambia school board voted to fire superintendent tim smith this week, in part, because of his lack of initiative in removing books from the shelves. so now, even leaders who are aggressive in their book banning efforts are being fired. what is your reaction to that? >> it is deeply troubling. it's a regime of intimidation, where children are the victims. we are teaching children that books are dangerous. that the right response to a book that you may not like, or may disagree with, is not to

argue it back or to recommend a different book, or to discuss what's wrong with the book, but instead to take the book away. to us, an organization that is devoted to freedom of expression, this interferes fundamentally with children's right to read. with the first amendment provision that allows us not just to express ourselves, speak our minds, but also to receive and impart information. so for an administrator to be punished in this way, simply for trying to give children access to books, that's even part of the complaint against him, i think it's profoundly disturbing. >> i want to follow up on that, you said that the rights at stake here, interconnected from a child's right to read to a publishers right to distribute books, if these book bans continue across the country, how will they impact, not only a children's knowledge of varying ideas and stories, but also the publishing industry right large? >> it's very troubling.

we see patterns, particularly in florida where they are scrutinizing textbooks and rejecting certain textbooks. as well as books for classroom and school. libraries. overtime, if that pattern continues -- it's going to affect what publishers are putting out. what is available, not just in florida, but to all of us. these books are sold nationally. the textbooks are distributed nationally. so we want free reigning access to ideas, which has been a bedrock of american society. everything is on the table. we debate, we go back and forth, we don't take ideas out of bounds. so, for publishers, it's very troubling. they are seeking to vindicate their own rights. we've got authors in the lawsuit who also have rights to reach audiences. to express their ideas, and distribute their works. we've come together to say, we all have a stake in what's happening in schools and escambia county and across the

country. >> so suzanne nossel, we'll keep track of this case. we'll keep track of this case. it's a fascinating. casey >> thanks charles, great to see you. >> president biden makes the -- to train ukrainian pilots on f-16s. so diabetes, this changes things, huh? hey, a lot of people in your corner including walgreens. but do i have to give up sweets? if you work out a diet plan, nothing is off limits.

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hiroshima japan for the g7 summit this weekend. meeting with world leaders and participating in talks on a range of issues. perhaps, none more pressing than russia's war in the ukraine. he made news on that front yesterday. in a stark turnaround, the u.s. is now in support of a joint international effort to train ukrainian pilots on modern fighter aircraft, including f-16s and other jets. the training will take place outside of ukrainian site in europe. a dramatic development in the united cause against russia. joining me now is --

an msnbc foreign affairs contributor and senior vice president for asia and the korean chair at the center for strategic and international studies. dr. cha. what's your reaction to this, that the u.s. is now in support of a joint effort by allies to train ukrainian pilots on modern fighter aircrafts, including f-16s. >> it's a big deal, charles. i mean, i think the ukrainians and zelenskyy have been asking for this for quite some time. as he put it to defend the skies in ukraine. the united states, the biden administration was reluctant to do that. largely because they didn't want to escalate the war with russia. so this is a big step in the united states in conjunction with the uk, a couple of other countries, denmark and belgian, i think. we'll have to train these pilots. of course, the next question will be who will provide f-16s to the ukrainians? that will be the next shoe that will drop in this very big and

significant military move. >> why do you think that biden changed his mind, and do you see it as an escalation in the conflict? >> i don't see it as an escalation in the conflict, i think it was a right venue in which to do this. the g7 meant -- the rich market democracies of the world, at one point russia was a part of it. and china was certainly one of the countries that was often discussed. now, we are in a situation where these market democracies are coming together and they're making a very powerful statement about the willingness to defend ukraine, and not let the russians win here. because it's a fight, not just for ukraine, but for the broader, liberal international order. so don't see it as an escalation, i see it as an important, and very definitive step by these countries, to support ukraine. so yesterday, the u.s. and its allies issued a fresh slate of sanctions on russia. in a response, russia raised a list of 500 americans now banned from the country. including barack obama, several

u.s. senators, even -- and stephen colbert. what do you make of their response? >> the russian response is tit-for-tat. i think it's more symbolic than anything else. yes, i think the g7 countries are coming together in terms of sanctions on russia. i know the united states wants to announce a new package of sanctions, but it's also about sanctions enforcement. again, these countries, japan, the uk, france, italy, germany, canada, and the united states, are members of the g7. they have a lot of sanctions that can put on russia. it's a matter of also enforcing them. half the battle with sanctions is following through. it's not just announcing them. i think part of the purpose of the g7 dialogue is to ensure the countries are doing their best to enforce the sanctions. >> so, have you been surprised, as many people have, that now more than a year into the war, both international and domestic support for the war in ukraine remains pretty united? there's some far-right republican rhetoric, but kevin

mccarthy, just a few weeks ago in israel, came out swinging in support of the ukrainian cause. >> i mean, i'm not surprised. i think there's a general understanding. of course, i'm in washington d.c.. i have a different, there's a different group in d.c., compared to the rest of the country. but i think the rest of the country has a general understanding that this is about more than just ukraine. russia, in addition to china, are posing a real threat to the liberal international border. the world as we know it, the world as the countries in the g7 know it. this is a fight that cannot be lost. i think there is a general understanding that if this fight is lost, it will change the worry the world operates. that could affect every day american lives. it doesn't surprise me that that support level is there. i'm happy to see that it's there. >> you invoked china, can i just stay on that for a second? let's talk about that at a topic at the g7. it's increased aggression

lately from china. what do you make of that? what can you tell us about that? >> so, i think where the g7 countries are really going to focus is not so much on the military threat in the taiwan straight, but i think where they're going to focus on is china's use of economic coercion. china has a huge market, and they use that market to try to leverage other countries. they have -- coercion in the past decade against 18 countries and over 100 companies. private companies. to try to get what they want. i think this coming together of these major market democracies. they've also invited six other countries, in addition to the g7 to be here. we'll really focus on how these countries, the g7 plus these additional six, can encounter, can deter chinese economic coercion. it is destroying the liberal trading order. >> victor cha, thank you so much. and you, stick around, second hour of a men's next.

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of a man, the fate of medication abortion access in the hands of partisan conservative judges dent rejecting republican debt limit plan. naacp president joins me to discuss his plea to congress, and major losses for election deniers. there has been severe upsets at the ballot box this week. i am charles blow in for ayman more hygiene, let's get started. , this week, there was a major development and a high stakes legal battle to abortion access, the most high stakes since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade. a federal court is currently hearing arguments on why the widely used abortion drug mifepristone should be