morning. it is sunday, may 21st. i am ali velshi. president biden is on his way back to the united states, cutting his g7 trip short in order to restart the crucial debt ceiling discussions. this is broken down over the past few days while he's been. abroad the breakdown of the talks is somewhat surprising, considering that just five days ago, both biden and house

speaker kevin mccarthy left the meeting sounding optimistic about how things were developing. biden told reporters that he was confident about reaching a deal, and that all parties were in agreement that default was not an option. mccarthy had even said that it, was, quote possible to get a deal for the end of the, week but signs of renewed discord svelte back out on friday. republican aides pause the discussion, and saying that it was, quote, not productive. democrats and republicans remain far apart on a number of issues, including spending cuts, and work requirements for federal benefits, which mccarthy has said is a red line for him. talks between congressional republicans in the white house have yet to, presuming yesterday, mccarthy's made his dissatisfaction public. tweeting, quote, president biden does think that there was a single dollar of savings to be found in the federal government's budget. he'd rather be the first president in history to default in the death that risks upsetting the radical socialist who are calling the shots for democrats right now, and quote. mccarthy's tweet ignores the fact that never before have republicans, under president of

either party, ultimately refused to raise the debt limit, it's in the fall right members of his own conference of the ones preventing him from scheduling the vote to get it done. the hostage taking at the american economy is force this high stakes negotiation, but striking a deal with them is one of the options available to president biden right now. as we approach the june 1st deadline, talks between the two parties have seen inconsistent, at best. members of congress have offered up to other emergency options, including how to avoid a catastrophic default that would have debilitating consequences, including, impossibly, sending the united states into over session. one option is called a discharge petition. it's a rarely used tool that would allow the minority party in the house to send a bill to the floor, and force the vote on, it without the speaker's approval. this requires some foresight. a destructive position can only be used on a voted committee for at least 30 legislative

days. fortunately, congressman, mike sony, a democrat of california, saw the debt ceiling issue coming to a stalemate back in january. he quietly filed a bill for this exact purpose. that can be done if democrats have the votes. now, house democrats set the ball rolling for discharge position to force the vote on an amended version of the bill that would include a measure to raise the debt ceiling. 210 of the 213 democrats in the house have already signed the petition. in order for it to succeed, they need 218 votes. this means that at least five republicans have to join them in this effort. jared golden of maine, in case of, hawaii and mary -- of alaska, or the house democrats who have not yet signed a petition. as of today. now, as i, said there are three options. the final option involves invoking the 14th amendment of the constitution. the states, quote, the validity of the public debt of the

united states shall not be, question. the number of congress experts have said this gives the u.s. treasury permission to continue borrowing money pass the debt limit, and that it would actually be unconstitutional for the united states to fail to make its payments. this, week 11 senators, and 65 democratic members of the house signed letters to call more attention to the idea, into urge the president to invoke the 14th amendment in order to raise the debt limit without having to proceed to republican demands. this would never be done before, the white house expects that the move would be met legal challenges. president biden has -- before departing for japan this, morning he says he believes that he has the authority to use it. >> i'm looking at the 14th amendment, and whether or not we have the authority. i think we have the authority. the question is, could it be done at a point in time that

would not be appealed as a consequence passed the date in question, and still, to fall into debt. that's a question that i think is an result. >> there's a lot here. joining me here is the independent senator, bernie sanders up for. monty's one of the 11 senators who signed a letter to president biden this past week, urging him to invoke the 14th amendment in order to avoid a default that with for the country into an economic turmoil. senator, good to see this morning, thank you for being with us. >> good to be with, you ali. on a purely technical base, as the president have a point. here you can invoke the 14th amendment the night before june 1st, because there is someone will file an injunction, and this would have to be adjudicated either by an appeals court, or possibly the supreme court. so if it's going to happen, when does it have to happen? >> well,, obviously the sooner the better. i think the point is that the president, if he exercises the 14th amendment clause, will be able to pay bills. that's the important thing.

we don't want to default, which would be catastrophic for our economy, and the world's economy. so my thought is, the pact that you, have the right wing extremist republicans, for the first time in history of this country, who are prepared to default in our national debt. this is money that they already voted for. now they're saying, you know what? unless you make savage cuts to the needs of working people, low income people, we are going to elect our akana me fall into recession, and the world economy as well. that's unacceptable. we need an alternative approach. >> in a moment i want to discuss the savage cuts with, you but let's go back to the idea that, this is not possible that the president invokes the 14th amendment, as you and others have asked them to do, and republicans file for injunctions, and some jurisdiction will get one. then, the treasury secretaries actually prevented by some federal judge, some, are like the guy who bought the messy

press stone, from actually paying those bills, and then it falls anyways. isn't at the same problem? >> well, i think what will happen is this will go worse the supreme court very quickly. the bottom line, is right, now ali, what the republicans are doing is holding the world's economy hostage. if they get away with it this, time not only will there be is savage cuts on the needs of working people at a time when 60% of the people are living paycheck to paycheck, this will be a precedents for leaves to come. for every two, years every, year they will hold the economy hostage. that cannot be allowed to happen. , look nobody is happy about the 14th amendment as an alternative, but it beats where we're out right now. you've got a republican party that says, you know, what we are really concerned about the national debt. that's why we want to give 1.8 trillion dollars in tax breaks

by repealing the estate tax two and a handful of billion families. the hypocrisy is outrageous. they want to extend trump's tax breaks, which will be three and a half trillion dollars, over ten-year period. so for them, tax breaks for billionaires, cutting programs for children, cutting programs for housing, health care, we cannot allow that to happen. >> let me ask you this. the way this is always gone before, in the way it's supposed to go, is that you pass the debt limit increase to whatever republican and democratic congress is done regardless of who is in office. you argue in the budget and appropriations process, what you are a part. of >> exactly. >> which money should spend. that said, option one is still a negotiated settlement. are you and others in the party going to be dissatisfied if president biden gives anything in exchange for raising the debt ceiling? even if it's a lot less than the catastrophic things that republicans might -- >> anything is -- we're going to have to define

anything. we'll have to look at what the agreement is. what the republicans have done is cruel, it's outrageous, it is devastating to tens of millions of people. i don't have to tell anyone out there that a health care system is a disaster. they want to cut health care even more. childcare is a disaster. , they want to cut childcare. by the way, all bertha is now on fire, and they want to make it easier for us to produce more fossil fuel, and accelerate the climate change crisis that we face. so i think that you need a line in the. stand we've got to fight back. the american people don't -- and cut programs for children, orphan nursing homes of residents. >> what is the red lines that mccarthy is talking about to our work requirements, including for an increased number of people on medicaid. we are looking at a situation which republicans are saying, if you put these work requirements, and it will

result in more people being employed. we have a 3.5 unemployment rate in this country, we do not have a problem because we don't have -- and we don't really have that problem. america has people who don't take their paid vacation, they don't go away. that's, said what it will result if americans get these costs, is a dramatic cut in funding for social programs. >> of course it. well i want everyone to understand what they're talking about. they're talking about having a budget that goes back to 2022, lower than it is right now. then cutting that every single year for the next ten years. for ten years, they're going to spend 50% less on the needs of working class and low income people. by the, way not only that they want more tax breaks for billionaires, they want to greatly expand military spending. so instead of, as you indicated, look, they control the house. we control the senate.

i have an appropriation process, they passed their, budget we pass our budget, and then you argue about what you do. but you don't hold the world's economy hostage in order to impose vicious clots of some of the most vulnerable people in this country. you know, in terms of health care, i don't have to explain to everyone, the current health care system as a disaster. 85 million people today are uninsured, or uninsured. they can't afford the prescription drugs. nursing home crisis. do you really want to make salvage cuts in health care? i don't think you do. >> mccarthy talked about the fact that -- wants to spend less money this year than we did last year. here's the thing, our population grows each. you are population ages. >> inflation grows. >> inflation growth year. it seems to be the wrong argument. in other, words of somebody wants to argue why we should spend differently, i think that's valid, but this business about less than last year doesn't jive with either inflation population growth, or are aging demographic. >> ali, it doesn't, but even on

top of that, this is how hypocritical -- 40 wind out of 50 republicans in the senate want to repeal the estate tax. the estate tax applies only to the top one tenth of one 10%. if they do that, that would be 1.8 trillion dollars adage in the deficit over a period of years, because of billionaire families are not paying their taxes. they want to -- >> you just got made famous. mccarthy is on fox right now, and he is just said this. people like bernie and aoc say something to the white house, in the white house entirely changes its view. kevin mccarthy is now directly calling you out by name, just seconds ago, on fox news, for being the reason that the discussion of this has broken down. your response? >> well, i doubt that very much. to the degree that the white house says that the republicans

should stop the hypocrisy. stop defending the billionaire class from paying their fair share of taxes while you want to cut programs that the elderly, the children, the sick, and the poor need. if i have any role and that, that's great. >> you are, by the way, going the other direction. despite all the things they're looking to cut in this negotiation to raise the debt, limit which, again i think you and i both acknowledge, it is a fair discussion to have that you spend your money. this isn't the venue for it. there is a budgeting venue, that's where it's supposed to happen. you and some of your colleagues have reintroduced and medicare for all bill. republican senator, bill, cassidy who was a ranking member on the health committee, has said that his passage is not realistic in this political climate. i suspect that something you've heard before. >> yeah, look, that's not wrong. we are taking on the power of the insurance industry, we're taking on the power of the pharmaceutical industry. every single, year these

industries make tens of billions of dollars in profit while we have 85 million americans uninsured, are under insured. there is a 60,000 people who are dying every year because they don't get to a doctor on time. we pay the highest prices in the world with prescription drugs. we spend twice as much per capital and health care as the people of any other nation on earth in our health care system. our system is broken. to my mind, what we have got to do in the united states, and this is i believe what the american people want, is to guarantee health care to all of our people as a human right, and not a privilege. the function of a rational health care system is quality care for all, not a system designed to make huge profits by the drug companies, and the insurance companies. that's a fight that i will continue to wage. >> nothing here in the news this morning, i'm going to ask you for a little clarity on this. if the result of joe biden coming back from g7 and getting into a conversation with

republicans that are just a clean raising at the debt limit, you are not saying that your against that, but you have to -- >> only, i don't like to speculate, you gotta see what's out there. senator, good to talk, with you thanks for chatting with, us always appreciate the independent senator bernie sanders of vermont. coming up at the top of the, hour i'm joined by the senator, debbie stabenow, and a member at the finance committee. plus, donald trump and his -- have been losing republican election since 2018. how does one convince republican primary voters that he's a loser when trump himself already come in so many of them of the big lie that the election was stolen from panama? going to top republican politics and primary challenges ahead. hours before president biden spoke at the g7, he met one-on-one with president volodymyr zelenskyy of ukraine, and later told reporters that he has assurances from the ukrainian leader that the soon to be supplied f-16 fighter

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xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, all right. and once-in-a-lifetime. speaking at a news conference after an important one-on-one meeting with president biden at the g7 summit into panned, ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, refuted that russian claim that russia was in complete control of the city of bakhmut. the two countries have been fighting over since last october. he did lament the ruinous day of the city saying that there is nothing left. russia has destroyed everything. adding right now bakhmut exists, quote, only in our hearts. joining me now from kharkiv in northeastern ukraine is my good friend nbc news foreign correspondent molly hunter. kharkiv is right near the russian border. molly, another tough line coming out of the summit is the united states and its allies will allow the transfer of

actually seen fighter jets to ukraine. we have now heard this from president biden. when and how remains unknown. during his remarks joe biden addressed where the fighter jets can and cannot be used. tell us more about this. >> yeah, ali, good to be with you. we actually just got into kharkiv. as you say, it is the easternmost city of ukraine. i have been here since last year. even making the boarded up windows in these buildings completely destroyed last timeout here. their cranes in the air. there is traffic. people are sitting outside at restaurants. the city is a totally different city. yes, on those f-16, our peter alexander got a question into president biden. he said, will the f-16s escalate this war? president biden's answer, i will read it out. he says, i have a flat assurance from zelenskyy that they will not use it to go on and move into russian geographic territory. not russian occupied territory in ukraine, but passed the actual border that, of course, has been the fear all along.

even though, ali, the f-16s won't be ready for months there that real sense of kyiv that now with patriots, with the f-16s, this is really military aid that the international community have decided to provide. not just keeping ukraine in the war about to really help them and it. take a look. >> four for presidents to lynskey this visit could not be coming at a better time or on a more important stage. in the last week alone russia has launched nearly 100 missiles and drones across the country. including hypersonic kyndall missiles one of the most modern conventional weapons in moscow's arsenal. ukraine's military says their air defenses have been knocking them down with the help of u.s. made patriot air defense systems. >> the new russian hypersonic missile has had its first testing combat. it has failed. the latest russian strikes coming as ukraine prepares to launch a counter offensive to take territory lost mostly in the last 15 months. the fiercest fighting has been

centered around the eastern city of bakhmut for months, or, what is left of it. >> translator: this soldier says that the enemy understands that we will fight until the end. this moment, right now, just might be a turning point. >> we are getting close to the critical math of the war. before it was like, we need to help ukraine. get through this thing in order to sit at a negotiating table and have a better position at the negotiating table. first of all we see that putin is not backing off. we understand that we need to get the cranium people to actually secure a proper victory. >> last weekend president zelenskyy wrapped up a successful european tour. this weekend securing f-16 fighter jets and training for ukrainian pilots. >> i am very happy. thank you very much. thank you, this will really help our society. our people. saving houses, the families.

>> his advisers know that even as missiles target the capital of the ukrainian president never comes back empty handed. >> here is an commander-in-chief at war. leading his compatriot to show how important he knows international support for ukraine really is. >> the month, frontline miles away is never far at this kyiv hospital the battle is relentless to save the survivors. >> i do not do anything else, this trauma surgeon says. i do not see my children. i do not see my wife. all we do is treat the wounded. the number of ukrainian military casualties is a closely guarded government secret. it runs in the tens of thousands of young lives. the number of wounded, far more. beneath the physical the cuts run even physical among -- we will be dealing with the

fallout from this war for the rest of our lives. country in the battle of bakhmut, the frontline for months. there is a lot of claims going around clearly the situation is very fluid, ali. yesterday we spoke on how the wagner russian mercenary group headed by evgeny prigozhin has claimed total control. some military analysts claim that was some excuse to -- if the russian regular forces fought off and lost territory than he could blame putin. today the russian military said they had for control. president gantz he said they believe they are still fighting. we just got a statement in the last hour, ali, from the ukrainian commander the ground forces who say they now control a minor point of bakhmut. they continue to advance on the flanks in the suburbs of bakhmut. we are approaching the capture. it is clearly fluid. there is clearly still fighting there. really, ali, is going to be the story here to try to figure out in the next 24 hours. >> just so people know you are 25 miles from the russian

border. molly, thanks as always. please stay safe. molly hunter for us in kharkiv, ukraine. up next, tracking down trump. the number of republican seeking the party's nomination for president 24 continues to grow. can any of them break the hole that the former president has on the republican party? we will get to that next. you see... your gut has good and bad bacteria. and when you get off balance, you may feel it. the bloating, the gas - but align helps me trust my gut again. plus, its recommended by doctors nearly 2x more than any other probiotic brand. just one a day naturally helps promote a balanced gut. and soothe occasional bloating gas and discomfort. align probiotic. welcome to an align gut. (vo) when it comes to safety, who has more iihs top safety pick plus awards, align probiotic. the highest level of safety you can earn? subaru. when it comes to longevity, who has the highest percentage of its vehicles still on the

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bid official this coming week. no matter how you slice it, donald trump is the one to be regardless of the candidate, it is going to be an incredibly tough task for any one of them to mount a credible challenge and against the former president given his hold on the republican base. joining us now is michael schafer a senior editor at politico. msnbc political contributor and producer for the rachel maddow show. author of the book, the impostures. how republicans quick governing and seize the american politics. thank you both you guys. let's start with you, michael. it is not that there is not more support for, generally speaking, other people in total, then donald trump. donald trump is far and away in control of the largest single swath of republican likely primary voters. here is a recent poll from real politics that put him at 56.3. ron desantis at 19.4%. what is -- what is your sense of how this unfolds in any way other than donald trump being the next

republican nominee? >> it feels like one of those movies where they all attacked the ninja separately coming out and from every side and wind up being defeated. it reminds me of 2016. there is this collective action problem. nobody wants to be anti trump. nobody is able to actually take him on full strength. >> steve, what do you should obey it? we have interviewed republicans, talking about the future of the ruling party. phoenix rising's from the ashes. there are some people who represent what republicans might want to be or war before donald trump. they are all polling at two or 3%. >> they are facing real challenges at this point. even i can see the same polling in c is the same way. there is no secret that donald trump is the prohibitive front warner. there is no secret that he has a firm control over the future of the party, the current state of the party.

here is something i want you to think about. one is there are variables that we cannot yet predict. we do not know for example of donald trump will be indicted more than one. i think it will -- there could be a clean bill. how this might affect the race. the other thing to think about is just time. if we were having this conversation eight years ago donald trump with only at 1%. having the conversation ahead of the 2004 campaign joe lieberman was the front runner for the democratic nomination. how did that turn out? in my heart of hearts do i think don't trump will be the nominee, yes. if you would have been put a radar on this obviously is more money with the front runner but having said, that stranger things have happened. our mutual friend -- watch this space. >> watch this base. indeed part of the issue is very rarely is there such a clear distinction between the person who can probably win the nomination versus, necessarily, the person who can win the election. if it's against joe biden there certainly polls that indicate

it was someone else less trumpy than donald trump they might get a broader swath of conservative voters in general. donald trump, his opponents say, is a proven loser. >> look at, they have built a party where the core identifying thing is resentment against the elites, the status quo against these fancy party who looked down on them, some have said. no one is better than playing to that resentment in those grievances than trump. all of the things that you would normally do to win a nomination -- strengthen your ability to govern. things like that. they do not seem to matter to the electorate as they have constructed it. to the values that they've constructed that is the devil's problem at the core of the challenge of anyone who wants to beat him. >> standby to buffer. you want to take a quick break and continue the conversation for what the strategy might be for either one of them what they might call a lottery

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with me michael schafer, senior editor political. stephen bennett and msnbc political ambitions at the racial matter show. author of the book, the impostors. how republicans could governing and seize american politics. i want to seize on something he said, steve. desantis dipping his toe into trump's actually a loser lane. it's difficult because that base, that base that is going to turn out for the primary the base that donald trump largely controls right now actually doesn't believe he is a loser. donald trump pedals the big lie. that is what 30% of the republican party believes. >> that is what makes this race so interesting. in, fact this is what makes the race different than any other race in american history. the republican party base which is fully invested in the idea that donald trump could actually lose the race that he

lost. the challenge for desantis exist. on the one hand, if asked, what happened in the last election he would say that donald trump lost, the base will see him as a traitor. they will turn on him. if, however, desantis says the opposite. wow, all of a sudden the base no longer has an incentive to define someone new. as far as rhonda sanchez is telling them -- >> what's wrong with this guy? >> exactly. go with the winner! he is the guy who won last time. isn't he? so, how does rhonda sanders thread that needle? the answer is, i don't know. neither does he! >> but look at the other competitors. they are looking at smaller numbers in the polls than these men. but nikki haley, did not carve out her own lane while she could. it is unclear what her lane is going to be. the same thing with tim scott. asa hutchison did actually carpet his own. layne is very decidedly anti trump. very pro trump for missile avi. let's talk about mike pence. here is a guy who could, based

on his own political history, lay claim to being part of the moral majority, a silent majority the old school conservative. somewhat socially liberal but very fiscally conservative. he is also not able to carve out a lane for himself. he is willing to get critical of trump, sometimes, kind of sort a. no one is there because he gave donald trump cover to be the guy that real conservatives would support. >> he tried to have a both ways. he came to the gridiron dinner in washington. he said, you know, trump was responsible for january 6th. i applaud the media for trying to get to the bottom of. it he did this at the same time as he was trying to stonewall it he -- was obliged to testify when theory was he was pretending to be against it because he thought it would be more credible if he showed up at someone that wasn't just today or to put the boot into his opponent, donald trump. i think he's trying to have it both ways. and voters can sniff that on.

if you try to stand against trump, what does he stand? for his chance for some of the least part of the things the republican party is about. he stands for restricting women's rights to choose across the country. he stands for the not part of the popular part of the republican party. he is not especially good at the grievance stuff. the i am a vehicle for your grievances that is a big piece of he got some of that he was lumped in with trump but since he has created distance he has created a real problem firms of michael schaffer senior editor at politico the ban and producer of the rachel maddow show and author of the book the impostors how republicans quit governing and seize the american politics. coming, up one supreme court case about inspection fees for fisheries could change the way the entire u.s. government

works. you're gonna want to listen to this. first, all, right we cover a lot a very important but tough topics here at velshi. time for a moment of levity at sunday morning. something one of our producers does here into light in the mood. to always have a plan or a riddle of the day. it is a play on words. it is always enjoyable. today's velshi. -- why didn't alexa run for santa? if you think you know the answer to this, hambone social media. hashtag velshi. i will have the answer for you at the end of the show. do not go anywhere. try vicks vapocool drops with two times more menthol per drop*, and the powerful rush of vicks vapors for fast-acting relief you can feel. vicks vapocool drops. fast relief you can feel. from big cities, to small towns, vicks vapocool drops. and on main streets across the us, you'll find pnc bank. helping businesses both large and small, communities and the people who live and work there

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(tap, tap) listen, your deodorant just has to work. i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later i still smell fresh. secret works. ohhh yesss. (woman) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon. in 1966 run reagan was the leading republican candidate in the california governor's race. as he ascended to the national race and eventually the presidency in 1980, he spearheaded a conversation about deregulation and the size, reach, and cost of government.

reagan had this to say about. it i want to mention a well-known speech in 1966. >> i haven't protesting the growth of government for a number of years. i've had a concern last the permanent structure of government become so big that it would become beyond the control of congress and beyond the law of the people. wasn't this the admonition of the founding fathers? a government tends to grow, powl freedom, eventually, is lost. the fact is, we cannot escape, it only government is capable of tyranny. >> it was one of his key campaign promises upon us in the presidency in 1981, reduce the size and influence of the federal government and to promote deregulation in favor of a complete free make of economy. during reagan's presidency the supreme court ruled on a case that paradoxically bolster the authority of executive agency. that case, chevron versus the

national resource defense council, established a legal doctrine called the chevron deference. which, for 40 years, has likely been the most frequently keita -- chevron dates basically says court should defer to regular agencies to make decisions anytime there is ambiguity in a law. rather than coming decision itself the court should take the recommendation of the federal agency experts when those experts make a reasonable finding even with that reasonable finding might be contrary to the one the court might arrive a. for example, if there is uncertainty around an environmental ruling, court to defer to experts from the environmental protection agency. the chevron decision allowed for a significant expansion of the executive branch is, like the epa. it granted them for more regulatory power than they had. now, i want you to hold that thought. we are going to come back to the chevron difference. under the executive branch of the united states governance, there are 15 departments.

all of which are led by an appointed cabinet member, including the department of defense. the state department. the department of labor. the department of education. the department -- in the whole of others. within or separate from these departments there are more than 400 distinct agencies and some agencies that employ more than 2 million americans. that does not include, the military or the postal service. they control massive budgets. when opponents of the so-called administrative tape talk about dismantling it, they are not typically talking about dismantling the defense department. for instance, they're usually talking about regulatory bodies that they think have too much body, costing much money. they believe operating or without or far outside of the constitutional power. these agencies are generally the regulatory bodies which, for better or worse we rely upon on every aspect of our daily live. the epa for her pollution's the

cars on highways in the department of agriculture make sure food. safety fda determines which drugs are determined -- osha and the department of labor keeps workers safe and protects workers rights. the size and power of these regulatory bodies has in fact grown since ronald reagan argued, back in 1966, but there was too much government. that it needed to be rolled back, or reigned. in nearly 60 years after ronald reagan questioned the providence of the administrative state, debate about the size of government, the roller, government and the nature of democratic kind ability continue to proliferate often in political circles. it has taken on a slightly different tone of lay. throughout trump's presidency he rolled back or reversed many environmental labor education transportation food and drug and consumer protection rules or regulations. the 2024 presidential candidate, vivek ramaswamy, has made the dissolution of the administrative state central to his campaign. he has vowed to shut down agencies, starting with the department of education, on day

one of his presidency. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, senator mike lee, other groups and pundits have been outspoken about the evils of the administrative state. as conservatives have argued against the mr. state, legal challenges to regulatory bodies have started to pop up more frequently. just in the last year, the supreme court ruled against the environmental protection agency. against the federal trade commission. against the extra security and exchange commission. and a series of decisions that have severely limited the regulatory power. in west virginia versus the environmental protection agency, the court significantly weakened the epa's ability to regulate carbon dioxide. justice elena kagan wrote in that sense saying that the court, quote, does not have a clue about how to address climate change. you had it appoints itself instead of congress and they're an expert agency a decision-maker on climate policy. i cannot think of many things more frightening. last week, the supreme court

except the case that has the potential to upend the entire system. the case, on its face. seems relatively benign. it is roper bright enterprises ink versus -- calmest secretary gina raimondo. it's challenge on a congress department rule that requires fisheries to pay for inspectors. which, again, sounds relatively benign. if you look a little closer at the briefs that are filed by conservative lobbying groups, you will notice that this case brought by a fishery isn't about fees that fishermen don't want to pay. this case challenges the constitutionality of the reagan ever a chevron difference. therefore, it could challenge the constitutionality of the very existence of certain executive agencies. the supreme court has just agreed to take up this case. since it will not be heard until the fall, it's likely won't hear much about it until then. this little known case that started with a dispute from a fishery could completely up in

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about the long history of the gop-led effort to shrink government and limit regulatory power of government agencies. this movement to rollback the so-called administrative state to -- reaching the supreme court. for more on this i'm joined by my good friend jeff rosen the president and ceo of the

national constitution center who, in fairness, help me think about this differently as we went through a security law on the other day. i'm grateful that you are here for me. we gave it our best try, jeff, at explaining the administrative state. the administration brief on this case that i described on the bright enterprises versus raimondo explains this. petitioners principally contend that chevron improperly transfer the authority to, say what the law is, from the judicial branch to the executive branch. this court has explained that the chevron framework rest on the presumption that a statutes ambiguity cans to toot an implicit delegation from congress to that agency to fill in the statutory gaps. discuss. >> ali, you did a great job setting up this crucially important topic. it's so important to play that speech from ronald reagan in 1966 because that reminds us of

the efforts to rule back the administrative state was the central goal of the reagan originalist revolution on the supreme court. president reagan, having announced his intention to rollback the great society in the new deal came to office pledging to appoint originalist justices who would resurrect limitations on the imagery to state that have been dormant since the new deal. as you said this sounds technical but it was in some ways the central goal of the reagan judicial revolution. it wasn't initially roe v. wade or the culture war issues it was raising in this form of government. as president reagan said the tyranny of government dating back to the founders. the project was to resurrect the limits on the real legislative state they include tentacle doctrines like the non delegation doctrine. the major doctor. and what do all these dark remain? they are basically saying the president cannot act through his executive agencies on his own without really clear

authorization from congress. the biggest example that you gave in your setup with the epa case. hugely important recently where the supreme court says, no, you cannot impose limits on clean power as part of climate change regulation unless congress has told you to do that explicitly. basically if that is the requirement is going to be very hard for the government to regulate. congress these days does not agree about a lot. that is why the stakes are so significant. bring it back to chevron, there is nothing inherently ideological about the chevron doctrine. in the original court decision it was written by judge ruth bader ginsburg when she was on the d.c. circuit. this has been led recently by justice neil gorsuch who says that we cannot defer to a minister of agencies we need a really clear statement without that we are gonna have to wait for congress to act. >> if you look at these agencies, like the epa. the ftc. sure the appointments are often

political but, generally speaking we would hope that often they are run by experts in their fields. certainly below the board of directors or the commissioners those who technically are the case. in theory these agency experts bring orson bryn non partisan expertise to non partisan issues. here is my question for you. the administrative state starts to get knocked down. what is the alternative to these regulatory bodies? >> great question. in fact, you are right. they are supposed to be on partisan. i have behind me here in my office and home my hero, louis brandeis, one of the initial defenders of the administrative state for non partisan experts. he helped construct -- the alternative means that for every regulation you would need a supermajority agreement, in congress, before you could, say, regulate greenhouse gas. or impose a vaccine mandate, or

lift the addiction moratorium. the other thing that the supreme court said that the president cannot do on his own. or, build the wall. it is important to know that this will go both ways. when you have trump in office, he was trying to executive orders to build a wall that congress did not want him to build. basically, it makes it much much harder for a president reflecting on majority role to act. in practice it means we were gonna have many fewer regulations. when it comes to greenhouse gas, it's gonna be harder to regulate greenhouse and all the crucial things -- i wanna quirkier for one quick second i wanna talk about invoking the 14th amendment to revoke the debt limit among. among -- >> really interfering in theory. it's clear that the president has the legal authority. mcconnell thinks he may.

legal scholars are lifting the debt ceiling without the authority from congress. it is not at all clear the -- if they do there will likely be vague legal challenges. >> that is the debt that the united states needs to be paid. jeff, thank you so much. we appreciate. if jeff rosen is the president and ceo of the national constitution center. straight ahead, i will be joined by democratic member of the financing budget committee. another hour of velshi begins right now. velshi begin right now. a president biden is back to the united states cutting his g7 trip short in order to restart the critical debt limit discussions -- the breakdown of the talks are so much surprising considering that just five days ago both biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy left a meeting sounding optimistic about how