legal scholars are lifting the debt ceiling without the authority from congress. it is not at all clear the -- if they do there will likely be vague legal challenges. >> that is the debt that the united states needs to be paid. jeff, thank you so much. we appreciate. if jeff rosen is the president and ceo of the national constitution center. straight ahead, i will be joined by democratic member of the financing budget committee. another hour of velshi begins right now. velshi begin right now. a president biden is back to the united states cutting his g7 trip short in order to restart the critical debt limit discussions -- the breakdown of the talks are so much surprising considering that just five days ago both biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy left a meeting sounding optimistic about how

things were developing. >> that default was not an honest. and mccarthy even had said that it would be, quote, possible to get a deal by the end of the week, last week. this past week. signs of renewed discourse bill back out yesterday when republican aides paused the discussion saying that it was, quote, not productive. democrats and republicans remain far apart a number of issues including spending cuts and work requirements for federal -- mccarthy said is a red line for him. talks between congressional republicans and the white house have yet to resume. yesterday mccarthy made his disadvantage faction public, reading, 12. president biden doesn't think that there is a think oh-dollar saving to be found in the federal budget. he would rather be the first president in history to default on the debt rather than upsetting the radical socialist calling the shots for democrats right now. mccarthy's three conveniently of re-norms the fact that republicans nor democrats under a president of either party

ultimately refused to raise the debt limit. that far-right members of his own congress are the one refusing to schedule the go, not biden. it is congress's job to raise the debt limit, not joe biden. the hostage taking of the republicans is forcing this high stake negotiation. striking the deal with the hostage takers of just one of deals available to president biden right now. as we approach the june 1st deadline and talks between the two parties have seen inconsistent at best, members of congress have offered up to other emergency options that could help the country avoid a catastrophic default that could have debilitating consequences that could possibly send the united states into recession. now, let's go through these two options. one is called a discharge position. it is a rarely to that would allow the majority party in the house to send the bill to the house and forth a vote on it without the speaker's approval. this requires foresight, the discharge petition could only be used on a bill that has been waiting for a vote in committee

for at least 30 legislative days. fortunately, congressman mark desaulnier, a congressman from california saw the debt ceiling issue coming in january any quietly filed a bill for this exact purpose. house democrats have sent the ball rolling for discharge petition in order to force a vote on an amendment member on the bill that would include a measure to raise the debt ceiling. no condition, just raise. it the way it is always, always, been done before. 210 of the 213 democrats in the house have already signed this petition. in order to succeed, they need 218 votes. meaning that at least five republicans, and three publicans into her games have to join them in this effort. jared golden of maine, and case of hawaii, and mary peltola of alaska are the three democrats in the house who have not signed the petition, as of today. that is option two. option three, involves invoking the 14th amendment of the constitution which states that,

quote, the validity of the public that of the united states authorized by law shell not be questioned. the number of congress members and experts have argued that this clause in the constitution gives the u.s. treasury that permission to continue borrowing money pass the debt limit. that it would actually be unconstitutional for the united states to fail to make it payment. this week 11 senators and 65 democratic house members signed letters to call attention to the idea and urged the president to invoke the 13th amendment in order to raise the debt limit without having to concede to mccarthy's demand. this has never been done before. the white house expects that the move would be met with legal challenges. president biden himself has largely ignored the idea, so far. before departing japan this morning at the g7 he says he believes that he does have the authority to use it. that he does have the authority to use it. i am looking at the 14th amendment, after whether or not we have the authority -- i think we have the authority.

the question is could it be done and involved in time that it would not be appealed and, as a consequence, passed the day in question and still to fall on the debt. that is a question that, i, think is unresolved. >> joining me now is the democratic senator, debbie stabenow, of michigan. a senior mentor of the senate committee chair of the committee and a great friend of the show. largely because she doesn't avoid the actual complex issues here. senator, we have two sets of complex issues here. one is the budgeting in appropriation complex. appropriation is largely the one thing in the constitution that is demanded of congress. there is a whole process on how we should be spending our money. that is not this. the process to authorize the payment of our debts is not the same as deciding how much they spend. >> absolutely. first i have to say that i love being on the show. your comments just now setting this up were spot on.

i have to start by reiterating what we know. this is a manufactured crisis. three times during the trump years we voted to avoid default with all the democrats and some republicans and -- in the four years following donald trump. we talk about donald trump all these options and one of the things mccarthy does not talk about is one option is they should roll back the first bill -- >> we can make it easier for tax cheats to cheat. instead of their bill which guts veteran health care and takes hundreds of thousands of police officers and teachers off the streets in stops 1 million meals on wheels for seniors. on and on. they could just say, you know what? what we did which created this math of debt with the 2017 tax

cuts for the wealthiest americans, maybe we will some of that back. there is a lot of options here. you are absolutely right. one thing is an arcane process that i would love to see us get rid of it is raising the debt ceiling to reflect what we have already committed in terms of our bills. the other thing is the appropriations process. -- . altogether it is three trillion dollars in deficit reduction. constant deficits. mccarthy in the republicans gave us their approach which would never pass the senate. the american people looking at the details would be horrified because of what it does to the people across our country. >> i just talk to jeff rosen from the national constitution center about this 14th amendment idea.

>> everything has never been done before. the country -- you cannot do the night before june 4th because someone will get an injection to not get that. they will have to go to the supreme court. it still lead to a difficult. if the. -- where do you think the solutions lies then? is it to discourage motion or something else? >> first of all, i do think the 14th amendment has been viable. it is never been used. we have never had a group of republicans or anyone crazy enough where we mind having to fall in economic chaos in our country. that appears to be where we are. i do think that it is a viable option. i don't know, because it was legal towns as, what would happen. on the other hand as the united states supreme court want to be responsible for country

defaulting? i would say, probably not. they could very easily let this stand. we just don't know. in addition to trying to find some common ground to get an agreement, i know that they are working incredibly hard and literally every minute of every day. his team is really extraordinary. the discharge motion is a viable. auction as you, said it only takes five republicans to stand with all of the democrats to get this done. and we know that at least on paper we have a group called the problem solvers. 30 democrats and 30 republicans who put up an option, don't to fall there something in the budget process surely five republicans in the problem solvers caucus would join with the democrats to stop this madness. to protect the economy and the

full faith and credit of the united states. >> this is by definition a problem. if you are a problem solver, we need. you one of the things we love to have you on for years we can get a little bit into the weeds. republicans have proposed, is a work requirement for certain benefits that people receive. including medicaid, temporary aid. food stamps. here is the thing, there are studies that indicate, particularly in a three and a half unemployment country, more people will not be working as a result of this. it will have the effect of cutting a lot of money from the budget. once again, we are in the situation where revenues are not high enough. are our expenses are high. we are looking to go to the least among us now to try to squeeze more out of them as opposed to think about taxes. >> ali, again, instead of the land amount that the wealthy

tax cheats, they're looking at seniors. with medicaid, or families with food assistance, whatever. let me just say this, medicaid. two thirds of medicaid, health, care goes to seniors and nursing homes. really? who are we talking about here? we have not had work requirements for medicaid. nor would i ever support going down that road on health care. we have work requirements on snap. i chaired the committee on agriculture nutrition. what happened on snap, it was also called tan. of a small program. not that many people get what would be referred to as public assistance. they were suspended during covid, like all the other requirements, how people were staying home. now the public health emergency is off. the work requirements back on. and as of july, on snap, any penalties. any able-bodied and not working

and not in the examination of program will not be able to receive any more than three months of food assistance in a three-year period. that is current law right now. the same thing the work requirement on what is called tan of. we have work requirements to go further on what they are suggesting would eliminates half the people getting help on -- food assistance gives an average of $6 to buy food take a look around the groceries nor. $6 a day. the vast majority of people who can work are already working. >> senator, good to talk to, you as always. thank you for being with us. senator becky stabenow of michigan. salma had nebraska has passed a sweeping bill that -- abortion access and transgender

care for minors. i'm gonna speak with the -- family and transgender child in. mine and after a game changing decision to allow ukraine to -- plus, a eyes here. so is a national conversation surrounding its potential benefits and harms. i'm gonna speak with two people who knows just how fast topology can change our world. you're watching velshi. g velshi (woman) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon.

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equipment to help deter russian aggression. the g7 leaders are also putting forward a plan to train ukrainian pilots on fortune when federer crossed pacific me the f-16 what you're looking at here -- -- . biden told zelenskyy the u.s. will remain a strong ally as his country's continues to fight against russia. >> the united states continues to help review crane respond, recover, and rebuild. we are also supporting their pursuance of a just peace. just one aspect of ukraine sovereignty and territorial integrity that have to be nonnegotiable. it just has to happen. together with the entire g7, we have ukraine's back and we promised we are not going anywhere. >> joining me now from hiroshima is msnbc news white house correspondent mike memmel, mike good to see you. what can you tell us about the aid package? and the idea we are talking about these f-16s. biden got the assurance from zelenskyy that they are not gonna use these f-16s inside

something called geographic russia. >> that is right, ali, i mean you look at the different announcements that have been made this week as it relates to the u.s. and our g7 allies -- we will check in the new term and if the announcement today with part of that sit-down let's say if important but maybe long-lasting ammunition -- there are trucks and trailers to hand support heavy equipment spare ports and other field equipment. this is the hand-to-mouth need that ukraine has that ukraine has been able to provide over a consistent basis over the last few. months they president biden is willing to greenlight that commitment to at least for now train and over the long term intentionally equipped ukraine with the f-16s. these are the advanced fighter

jets. this is something that takes time for the president to get on board with. it speaks to the fact the two things that have been driving the strategy more broadly. one is the president, whenever possible, wants to act and commonality with the rest of our allies. it is important to do this rather as a group instead of individually. it is important that other nations are aware of doing this at the same time. the other concern is one that the president addressed during his news conference. it is the threat of escalation. the president has been very careful throughout the entire process to consider how russia might respond to a move in u.s. my -- as he laid out in response they have a commitment with president zelenskyy to see the potential equipping of the f-16s would only be used for defensive purposes not offensive purposes. that is important as jake sullivan has said it is not necessarily a change in posture with the administration it is a reflection of the fact that a to solve and put it it is a learning organism the uss

chains involved with them to address what are the most immediate needs by the ukrainians and also the long term strategic goals, as well. >> mike, always good to see you, my friend. thank you for being. with us nbc news mike memoli from here she, much of. hand right after the break. after weeks of fears to break the basket lawmakers voted to restrict access to abortion in medical care for transgender use. we are going to speak with state senator, megan hunt, who implored republican lawmakers to consider her transgender child when they consider their votes. child when they consider their i'm not asking you to sit here through late nights to vote on these bills that were dragging au. i'm asking you to love your family more than you hate mine. hate mine you going to do with it? i could use a new sign. woooo! alright... ♪ soundproof windows.

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binds to the most contentious

issues dividing legislatures across the country, a ban on abortion access and a ban on gender affirming care for trans youth. one step closer to becoming a lot today after the state's legislature passed it during a contentious hearing on friday. the republican governor has promised to sign it into law. the bill passed by a margin of one vote after conservative lawmakers called it a visibly ill colleague in order to secure the needed votes, according to the associated press. during friday's debate, nebraska lawmakers hurled insults at one another while nearby protesters chanted shame a republican lawmaker as they cast their votes. for weeks now, democrats have been filibustering every single bill that passed through the chamber in a protest of an initial stand-alone bill targeting gender affirming care. the persistent filibustering has slowed the legislative process to a crawl, leaving conservative lawmakers with little time to advance the two issues as separate bills before the end of the legislative session. so, they bundle them into a single bill in the final days of the session called in their sick colleague to get a pass.

this hybrid bill includes the states first abortion restrictions since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade last year, ending the federal right to an abortion. it will vanish portion after 12 weeks with some narrow exceptions. the second aspect of the bill will prevent transgender people aged 18 or younger from receiving gender conforming surgery. it would also restrict hormone replacements and puberty blockers from minors, the state's health department chief medical officer, a political appointee who is in the air noem -- put in charge of regulating gender forming therapy. meanwhile, hundreds of businesses and medical professionals have signed statements warning that a ban on abortion and gender pharmacare would prompt corporations and doctors to leave the state. more than 1200 nebraska medical professionals signed on to a letter to state lawmakers on friday, calling the bill a direct attack on the medical community of our state. my next guest, -- who centers trends, social plans on leaving the state. on thursday, she issued a

powerful rebuke after one of her republican rivals complained about having to miss her grandson's preschool graduation because of democratic filibustering. >> i'm not asking you just sit here through late nights to vote on these bills that were dragging out. i am asking you to love your family more than you hate mine. if you want to go see your grandson graduate from preschool, you should do that. instead, you are here, to drag out this session because you will not come off this bill that hurts my son. you hate him more than you love your own family. that is why you are here. >> the state senator meghan hunt of nebraska joins me now. senator, thank you for being with us. i mean, there's a piecemeal that wants to talk to is a legislator, but mostly want to talk to you as a mom of a trans son. these laws affect somebody's

children. and you have asked people to think about it that way. this is your child, it is not a choice you made or they made, this is your child and you would like your child to be treated as normally as anyone else's child. >> that's exactly right, you know, thank you so much for having me on here to talk about this. what's so disappointing about this happening in nebraska is that we have had this amazing nonpartisan unicameral for over 100 years of nebraska. and we have a strong tradition of non partisanship and of collaboration, compromise. we also have the smallest legislature in the country with just 49 members. so, all of these people i work with anomie, they know me, they know my kid. they've traveled with us to conferences, they have babies that him, they helped me fm. yet, still, at the end of the day, they did not use their minds and their heads to think independently about who they're actually harming.

and that, to me, it is the most depressing thing. i just don't know how we come back from the, actually. >> tell me what this is then, is that real fear of transgender children? or is it just a really good political point you can score? that you know, you can run the scoreboard on this? >> i think it's pollute -- completely political. these people don't know what they're talking about, they don't know what they're talking about. they're legislating like somebody who's never met a trans person and their life. somebody who is swallowing all of the propaganda and stereotypes, the false information, misinformation that we hear on, like, far right wing, you know, media sources. none of it has anything to do with reality. if they weren't ignorant and they knew what it's like to have a trans kid, to be trans, if they educated themselves

about what gender furman care actually is and how it actually works, instead of letting themselves be scared and letting themselves be bullied by the executive branch, by our governor, and supporting this bill, we would never be here today. >> can you tell me about that, when you said they don't know what it's like to be the parents of a trans kid or to be a trans kid, tell us in basic terms what is that like? >> well, i mean, you know, it's not a model, i'm sure it's different for everybody, for me, when my kid came out to me is trans a couple years ago, kind of the journey we've been on with our family, as a family, to me, that was the greatest blessing, that was the greatest gift, to find out that i had a son. that tells me that my son is comfortable telling me that. my son knows he is being raised in a safe and loving home and that no matter who he is or how he identifies, how he discovers

himself as he grows up, as we all do, whether we're trends or cisgendered, that's what growing up is about, discovering who you are. the fact he is discovering who he is and feels safe and loved enough to share that with me, that is, you know, the biggest blessing i could ever have in my life. >> what do you want for him from the rest of the world? he has the support and love of his mother, which is most of, it and life, but it's not all of, and right? he needs protection, kids are confused all the time, all through their teenage years. this is an added thing. i mean, some of these state legislators, when they've called children to testify, legislators are asking them questions about their genitals and things like that. this is hard to be a trans kid. >> you know, i'm still a mom, i'm still a parent of a teenager. part of my job is to protect him from a lot of that, you know, hate and bigotry, those

intrusive questions, while also preparing him for the world his growing up into. one thing i'll say, i'm not an optimist, honestly, this is not a good quality that i have. i do think that the world in general is not this hateful. it is just lawmakers, it's just legislators. i asked my son, like, at school, do you get bullied, are your teachers doing okay? you know, do you experience a lot of discrimination? he says, no, only from the people you work with. i think that that is a common experience, the world at large is not as hateful as our legislatures make them look. >> i heard this from two other parents of trans child the other day who said the biggest believes in our state are state legislatures, the actual states are building at this, why not people in the state. you're one of those people, by the way, you've decided to leave the state, you've also decided to leave the democratic party. >> well, we're hanging on to,

like, a little comment i made on the floor during debate. i think we probably will eventually leave the state. you know, i am doing an eight-year term, all be done in 2026. at that point, my son will be almost 18. and he's gonna think about where his future is gonna be. i'm gonna think about the same thing. you know, the world's big, there's a lot of experiences out there, and maybe this is a chapter of my life and i'm going to close. but yeah, in terms of leaving the party, i was upset the national party was trying to fund-raise off of the work we're doing in nebraska without ever supporting us candidates. so, we have to stop discounting red states, especially the organizers and advocates who are making these places as safe as possible for people like my son. we have to stop ignoring conservative states because there's people here who are doing amazing work. >> i've heard that message a lot to this week.

thank you for being with, us thank you for your bravery and thank your son for his bravery. democratic state senator, meghan hunt. megan hundred nebraska. still ahead, national discussion surrounding artificial intelligence and whether the new technology poses existential threat to humanity, democracy, as we know it. lebron discussion of two people intimately familiar with how rapidly technology can make sweeping changes to our world. ng changes to our world. for instant relief that lasts up to 12 hours. vicks sinex targets congestion at the source, relieving nasal congestion, and sinus pressure by reducing swelling in the sinuses. try vicks sinex. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game. not a game! we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're not talking about practice? we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long. -word. -no practice. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. i mean, we're not talking about a game! cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited.

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and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon. up at 2:00am again? tonight, try pure zzzs all night. unlike other sleep aids, our extended release melatonin helps you sleep longer. and longer. zzzquil pure zzzs all night. fall asleep. stay asleep. >> moments ago, the treasury secretary janet yellen told my colleague, chuck todd, on meet the press, june is a hard deadline for the debt ceiling. if a deal is not reached by then, the u.s. will default on its debt, causing a catastrophic chain of events for the american economy, and possibly the global economy. as that happens, while it was having this conversation with senator bernie sanders, republican house speaker, kevin mccarthy, it was on fox news, blaming sanders for the race and lack of progress and negotiation. so, i was able get bernie sanders reaction real,

timelessness of this. >> you just got made famous. mccarthy is on fox right now and he is saying this, people like bernie and aoc say something to the white house on the white house entirely changes its views. kevin mccarthy is now directly calling you out, by name, just seconds ago, on fox news for being the reason the discussion about this has broken down. a response? >> well, i doubt that very much, but the degree that the white house says to these republicans, stop your epoxy, stop defending the billionaire class from paying their fair share of taxes, all you want to cut programs that the elderly, the children, the sick, and the poor need, if i have any role in that, that's great. >> we'll stay on that story. coming, of artificial intelligence is here. sam altman, the ceo of open, that's the company that brought us chatgpt, spoke on capitol hill this week about the high stakes. >> my worst fears are that

would cause significant -- we, the field, cause significant harm to the world. i think that could happen in a lot of different ways. i think of this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong and we want to be vocal about that, we want to work with the government to prevent that from happening. ro happening. harge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon.

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happens when technology outpaces regulation. the unbridled exploitation of personal data, the proliferation of disinformation, and the deepening of societal inequalities. we have seen how algorithmic biases can perpetuate discrimination and prejudice and how the lack of transparency can undermine public trust. this is not the future we want. >> if he were listening from home, you might have thought that voice was mine, the words from may, in fact, that voice was not mine, the words were not mine claude. >> that was how senator richard blumenthal open the senate hearing on the oversight of artificial intelligence. as he said, that was not his voice, those are not his words. his opening statement was generated by voice cloning software that was trained on

his floor speech is using words produced by chatgpt when asked how would richard blumenthal open this hearing? during that through our sunday hearing, the founder of openai, which made chatgpt, expressed confidence that artificial intelligence has significant potential to be a force for good. he also said, with urgency, a eye needs to be regulated and soon. first, some artificial intelligence one-on-one. a. i is basically a supercharged data processing system that combines massive amounts of data and information with algorithms that continuously update and learn from patterns and from data features. artificial intelligence technologies are developing at mind-numbing speeds with new iterations and utilities of a i software emerging every day. now, a.i. large language models like chatgpt can summarize and synthesize huge quantities of information in a matter of seconds. it can write complex essays about virtually any topic, it can produce poetry, layton with

of octave imagery and clever metaphor, with plug into can generate original images based on text props, all within seconds, less than the, i really. it has transformed some injured -- cited as a tool to help combat climate change, it's been given independent just some people with disabilities, allowed people to us to get their voices back. there are some obvious problems, and as senator blumenthal stated, the technology is far opposing any effort to regulate, and pretty common in society. it reflects the data that is trained on. it should be no surprise that the biases of our imperfect systems are reflected in a magnified by a.i.. four years we've seen that play a, racial bias and data has led to worsen racial profiling in policing discrimination against job applicants. and individuals seeking loans, based on race, age, geographic location, what's more, there is no system in place really what data is used to train these models. so, huge amounts of copyright

material, including our, images, songs, videos, it's being used freely to train generative a.i. platforms. as senator blumenthal showcased, it can convince fully replicate human voice, it generated deepfake images audio and video are becoming more and more difficult to discern. the emergence of a.i. deepfakes, as well as chatbots with advanced language capabilities have created huge potential for convincing disinformation manipulation and influence. around the world, a high regulation is beginning to pop up with the european union in china leading the charges. here in the united states, as we approach the 2024 election cycle, the need for regulation is clear, so, after the break, i gotta talk to two people to whom i turn for all things artificial intelligence and what the future holds. jacob ward and roger mcatee. and roger mcatee. f my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need.

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it. joining me now are two experts on artificial intelligence, jacob ward is a technology correspondent for nbc news, pretty much my expert on all things technology, he's the author of the book, the loop, how a.i. is creating a world without choices and how to fight back. roger mckenna me, major silicon valley investor, cofounder of elevation partners, author of the book is locked, waking up to the facebook catastrophe, gentlemen, thank you. this is the world premiere of the chevy on the show, talking about a.i.. we're probably several years

too late on this conversation, but better late than never. let me start with you, good or bad, what do we do about it? >> well, you know, both, right? i think, ali, if we've learned anything, even in these early days of the most primitive form of this technology, that sort of looking at right now, mind-blowing as chatgpt's, it's just the beginning of what this stuff can do. it's convenient and fantastic at all sorts of problems solving, i traveled the country last few weeks, going to recycling centers were a ion machine vision make it possible to know the specific molecular content of each piece of plastic going why so we can create a pure form of the commodity. i went to a farm last week where a.i. is using, you know, it's able to drive a robot that can read at a faster rate than the human can and make organic farming possible. it has tremendous medical possibilities, educational possibilities, all of that. unfortunately, making money in this world allows you to do some pretty, you know, creepy

and unethical things. of course, the moment we're in right now, why it's cool because roger on the segment, we're in this world that's really continuum between unregulated open world that social media did for the last 20 years, they gather data on all of, us and then feeding all of that into these a i models, they're controlled by the same companies, the same name, same companies floating around, and those companies enjoy a totally open regulatory world. as we enter 2024, as we look beyond to the world or children are gonna live in, it's obviously the case we get our minds around how to regulate this beyond dollars and cents, and the physical harm regime, which is of course regulated things passed. >> not only are both you guys in california, three hours earlier than i am, rodgers action on vacation. i had to talk to you, roger, you and i started this conversation on friday, we didn't get close to even scratching the surface. i want your take on this as well. >> so, i want to push back on

one thing that jake said, at least to clarify, there is not one thing that is a, eye there is actually lots of different technologies, lots of different approaches that people are bundling under this one term. and when jake describes the stuff going on in medicine, and farming, these are ais trained and very specific highly curated data sets. all valuable ais are trained that way. in fact, an a.i. is only valuable to the extent it's trained on high quality information. the problem with touchy ptc, the problem with gpt-4, gpt-3, is that they didn't want to paid for the copyrighted high quality content necessary to make a great product, they just scraped the web. they not only violate the copyrights of people who stuff is on the web, but they also get lots of data from sites but do not distinguish between fact and fiction. the result is a tremendous amount of garbage in the data

sets, this undermines the quality of the results but come out. and the systems are generating so much output and they're ingesting the output into train themselves, so, the result is it's making the web less and less useful. that's incredibly dangerous. the thing we really need to recognize here is that this is yet another technology that is unsafe. that's what we need to focus on first. >> so, jake, when we say unsafe, you know, i'm thinking, how to make sure teachers know their kids aren't writing their, chatgpt isn't running their essay, is that solid rodgers implying here, there are dangers that are deeper, right? some of them are in the biases, summer and the quality of information going in, some are the ideas that people will get fooled by information they thing to be real, whether it's deepfake videos or audio. tell me where your fear side lies? i know you guys, like i, am technology components, and we know there's things about the world that can be made much better with a.i., but tell me where my parents, who are

watching this right now, might say, okay, here is something i haven't thought about that might worry us? >> so, you know, it's the sort of terminator scenario in which the a i suddenly become sulfa where and the instructions for, joanna start recycling humans and not all this plastic, tonight i mean? there is that sci-fi movie we've all seen. what i think about much more often is the ways in which market forces, the drive to make money off of the stuff causes people to very quickly adopted without really understanding what it's gonna do to individuals, and to society as a whole. here's an example, a couple weeks ago, i spent time with a lawyer in baltimore who spends her time suing on behalf of people who've been wrongly denied government benefits. they get rejected from their section housing application or from their snap benefits, right? and they can't figure what's going on. they try to call the agency to say, what is happening? can get anyone on the, phone no

one can tell them how the decision was made. what the lawyers discovered issue goes through these hearings, after she clause her way to the top of the pile and finally figures out what's happening, increasingly state agencies are turning over the decision-making process to these a.i. systems. such that those systems are making those choices about life or death stuff, whether you get shelter, whether you get medical care, whether you get food. that decisions being made in a way humans don't have any input on at all, not only do they have no input, they can't even tell you how many decisions were made. it's the impulse to trust these systems in the short term with a really really important decisions, morally waited, life and death decisions that are gonna be super tempting. right now, there's nothing standing with those agencies doing so, except for the occasional volunteer lawyer who gets to the bottom of. it will see that replicated all across society if we don't get out in front of this right now. >> out in front, but roger, you argued for many years as relates to social media and other things in the digital

realm, it means smart regulation, not regulation to stop progress, but smart regulation which you and i have discussed. i'm worried about it. i'm not sure the expertise exists in our elected bodies to deal with that. so, what a smart regulation look like? is anyone doing it? >> so, ali, the most important thing to understand, technology is much less complicated than the people promoting it would have you believe. i mean, congress regulates really compounded industries like health care, finance the banking industry is super complex. this is very simple. when you're looking at an area like a.i., if you want safety in a, i the first test, and this is actually something anyone can do, you ask the question, what was the data sound which this was trained? if you're scraping the web, and it's just whatever is out there, including things that are unverified, that is going to be dangerous. that should not be allowed. i think having something for all of the tech industry, not just a.i., but everything, that requires company demonstrates

safety as a condition of market access, it's the first up. it's really important because there is no incentives to that for tech companies to do anything about safety, they don't even think about it. and it's not because they're bad people, it's because the incentive structures wrong, we have to change that culture, we have to recognize that congress is a wall, states are beginning to act. and it's long overdue. there are good things states can do. but this is about, you know, treating corporations better than people, that's not fair. if you're gonna give the corporations all the benefits for people you, have to give people the benefits they are giving corporations. right now, we're not doing that. >> guys, i can listen to all day, what i do recommend for my viewers is that they read both your books to get up to speed so you can be part of this discussion as it moves forward. thanks to both of you, i love having you. on jake ward, -- it is, it is, both her books are fantastic. jake is our technology correspondent, roger is a silicon valley investor. this is jake's book, the loop.

rodgers book is locked, waking up to the facebook catastrophe. early in the show, we gave you our very first velshi middle of the day, why doesn't alexa run for the senate? we've been bombarded on social media with viewers who think they know the answer. drumroll, please, the answer is, because she likes being speaker of the house. that does it for me. thank you for watching. stay right where you are, jen psaki, instead of john psaki begins right now. right now >> the republican field is about to expand this week with tim scott and ron desantis officially jumping in. when it comes to governor desantis, brace yourself for a lot of talk about making america florida. i'll tell you what that would actually look like. and last jacksonville's mayor elect, donna deegan, how she pulls off a stunning upset with a much different brand of politics. plus, county district attorney -- signals something big could becoming an august. i have some unsolicited advice for how donald trump's republican rivals might want to message around that.