nuclear technology before. we've got nuclear batteries on the voyager 2 space probe launched back in 1977. it's still going, exploring the universe. ultimately, nasa is hoping to use nuclear generators on the moon and mars to provide power and heat for future astronaut bases. back to you. >> so cool, thank you, tom. and you can watch more of tom's reporting on the epic space race to mars on "meet the press" reports on nbc news, and on peacock. that does it for us this hour. make sure to joining us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday, 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. our coverage continues with "katy tur reports" right now. ♪♪ good to be with you. i'm katy tur. there are eight working days left, and still no sign that president biden and speaker mccarthy are any closer to a deal. speaker mccarthy just spoke to

reporters at length. we're going to tell you what he said, and what it means for this evening because mccarthy and president biden are meeting again at 5:30, face to face at the white house. keep an eye on what each side says coming out of that meeting, the third one in as many weeks. if they can't start coming together now, when will they? because although we say eight working days, that doesn't mean a deal and a bill and a vote will happen overnight. marking it up, debating it, signing off on it all take time even when congress is trying to go quickly, and according to treasury secretary, janet yellen, there isn't exactly wiggle room. june 1st is a hard deadline, she told "meet the press" over the weekend, even invoking the 14th amendment would take time, which by the way, yellen says would be potentially inappropriate and legally uncertain. so what would be left, aside from defaulting? again, watch what comes out of

this meeting. house democrats have 210 vote for their discharge petition. punch bowl reports they should have 213 by the end of the day. would a continued standoff help them get to 218. let's ask. joining me now is nbc news white house correspondent monica alba, and nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. so garrett, mccarthy spoke to reporters. what did he say? >> reporter: well, he said a couple of things of note, katy. first of all, he said that he thinks they need to see progress at the white house. he needs decisions to start being made. he was keenly aware of the time component that you just laid out to get a deal, and he also started to describe the parameters a little bit more specifically than we have heard before about what would be and would not be in it. mccarthy has described a spending deal that would cut spending in real terms from 2023, you know, basically next year, we would spend less than what we spent this year, and that number cannot go up. he's also said, as we well know, he won't cut medicare and social

security. today he said defense cuts are off the table. that means all the cuts he's talking about would land on domestic spending. if you're thinking that doesn't sound like a deal democrats would be willing to support, you would be right. mccarthy is continuing to squeeze down on the negotiations right now and it's hard to see how that gets him the numbers that he needs to pass a bill if he can get a deal. here's what he said about passing that bill if they get that far. >> i believe members should have 72 hours as promised, you got to pass the house, write it, make sure it's right, and the senate has to pass it. that's why waiting until this last minute is not the way to govern. >> reporter: don't think there would be many people that disagree with the idea that congress needs to stop waiting until the last minute to get down. the 72-hour rule is a rule house republicans put in congress that that's how long members would have to read any bill before there's a vote. it could get waived but it would

probably make the same faction who doesn't trust mccarthy and the house republican side uncomfortable. he glosses over the senate doing this. how many times have we talked about how slowly the senate moves, and that's if everybody is rowing in the same direction. not a given on a bill like this. >> monica, over the weekend, the president said republicans are proposing things that are not tenable, not things that democrats are going to compromise on. one of the things the white house said it wants is a rise taxes for wealthy people and corporations. how hard is president biden willing to push that? >> reporter: that has been something that president biden has wanted for months, even more than a year that he has been in office, and introducing this legislation, katy. so this is nothing new. this is something he has wanted connected to a lot of different things he has proposed in the past. it shouldn't be surprising that we see the white house wanting to raise revenue, which is what this would be by taxing the wealthiest americans and

corporations, but they're saying and putting this into the context of that's how we can also reduce the deficit, they say, by 3 trillion with a t dollars, and the reason we're talking about all of this connected to the debt ceiling, people might be saying wait a second, i thought we were talking about impending default, and these other issues. why are we talking about spending. this was something the white house didn't want to connect but that it's very clearly obviously in the course of these negotiations, completely inextricably linked. republicans are very clear about what they want when it comes to spending cuts. the white house and president has said we're open to some of that and not all of that. they want to essentially do this by going after oil and gas companies, eliminating any breaks for pharmaceutical companies. these way bigger picture things, again, that are kind of on the table in the context of this negotiation about priorities and, again, differences here between the two sides that likely are not going to get resolved today, katy, in this meeting. when these two men come face to face, they're going to be talking about the broad outlines

of a framework they think they can agree on while making sure and committing to avoiding default, which both men have said that is what they want to do because we're so close to that june 1st deadline, and we know there's all of this work that needs to be done before then, in order to make sure the u.s. doesn't go into that unprecedented territory. going into this meeting, they're saying the expectation isn't that everything is going to be resolved, but it allows the two of them to talk about some of these places where really they have complete differences that, again, i don't expect them to come out saying we don't agree on everything. if anything, here's what we're still able to make, what they call a reasonable compromise. neither side is going to get what they want out of this, and they're both aware of that. >> i'm going to be watching for how the markets respond tomorrow morning, after this meeting. if they come out and look like they made no progress, how does the market respond, and what does it mean for pressure on both sides to come to an agreement. garrett, in terms of pressure, i know we have talked about this a lot, and i know it's a long

shot, but let's revisit this discharge petition. and does it become less of a long shot the more meetings these two men have, and the less progress they appear to make? >> look, i think all of the sort of plan b through q that has been discussed over the last couple of weeks become more appealing the closer we get to the deadline and the more, as you suggest, that we might see the markets start to react to what has appeared to have been baked in as this is the kind of thing that congress always does and they always get to a deal. if we get much closer, that opinion might change, and that could put pressure on lawmakers to join the discharge petition. right now, not a single republican has done so. there is still a few democrats short. some of that is purely logistical, getting people back in town to sign it. i think part of the problem here is something that monica pointed out. when both sides say they're committed to avoiding a default, they mean different things. mccarthy talked about this a little bit today. look, i'm committed to avoiding default.

that's why the house passed a bill. if the senate comes back and passes a bill, boom, problem solved, no default. when you hear president biden and democrats in the senate talk about being committed to avoid a default, their expectation is mccarthy means passing a clean debt ceiling limit. these are not the same things, and i don't know that the risk that the two sides talk entirely past each other right up to the deadline is baked into the minds of people talking about this. >> garrett haake, and monica alba, thank you. and joining me is the host of simone, and former chief spokesperson for vice president harris, simone sander townsend and was on the campaign with president biden, one of my fun sparring partners. let's talk about what can be considered a palatable compromise for president biden? what does that look like? >> well, i have been thinking about this, katy, because the white house ahead of the sunday shows put out this memo on saturday, just kind of reasserting what the president's position was. at the end it said they're

confident a deal can be reached but at the top it says the president continues to maintain that they need to discuss revenues, ie, taxes on what they say the wealthiest americans, right, corporations that monica talked about, in addition to spending. i have not heard the republicans want to talk about the taxes. >> they don't, i've spoken to them, and they said, no, absolutely not. >> exactly. so the question is where do you go from here? and so i'm actually quite september call, and folks i talked to are quite september call that a deal is going to come together this week. i think the white house continues to be optimistic, but you heard this language now from allies of the white house, senator coons told ali velshi that the white house is exploring additional options, the white house continues to say our negotiators are confident but then you have president biden himself from a press conference, 5:00 a.m. our time, sunday morning, saying i looked at the 14th amendment, we're trying to see if it's legal so i

think that's an understanding. i think that president biden is very intentional. my experience with him is he says what he means. whether the staff want him to say it is another thing. it was intentional he said what he said about the 14th amendment for days, taking it off the table. >> when you say they're looking at it, what does that mean? are they going through the legalities how it would hold up in court, talking about blow back and gaming out potentially scenarios there. >> the president himself said his team is looking at what the time line would be for it, right, can you get it done in enough time to avoid the default, and then if it is automatically challenged in court, could you do something about that, and so exactly. >> why would it take time to invoke the 14th amendment? >> folks could say it's unconstitutional, and what the president is doing, legally challenge it, ask for an injunction, an injunction could be granted, could not, so i think they're trying to game that out. it's my understanding they're also just exploring other options. is the platinum county an option chlgt i asked the white house about this.

i'm not a financial scholar by any means. >> what is the platinum? >> nobody could explain it to me so i think senator whitehouse, the chair of the senate budget committee doesn't think it's an option. senators want the 14th, the section 4 of the 14th amendment to be invoked. i don't know if we're going to get there. what you said, folks really need to, you know, bold and underline what katy tur said when she was speaking to garrett haake. you're going to be watching the markets tomorrow. in 2011, when i think this was the closest that folks had come to this particular point in history, s&p, downgraded the credit rating in the united states from aaa to aa plus. that might sound very technical to people, but a aaa credit rating, if you're downgraded, it means your city is not a good city to do business. people don't want to invest there. the united states government losing their aaa bond rating

means this is not a good place to do business, shaky ground. that is not something that any american should want. >> if we default, it's not as if that money disappears. we still owe that money, and don't we stand to owe even more money because when you default, generally interest rates go up. the interest on your debts go up? >> for regular americans. i know if i don't pay my credit card bill in time, they come looking for a little extra. look, this is money that was already spent. this is money that was already allocated to be -- it is not about new spending, and the president has gone to great lengths to say i'm not negotiating on the debt limit, i'm negotiating on the budget. the reality is this is a negotiation about the debt limit that's tied to a budget, and the white house has acknowledged that speaker mccarthy didn't produce a budget. there's a lot of monday morning debating about how democrats should have done this when they had both chambers of commerce.

they knew they were dealing with an unshaky house, and the real mistake, was going into the negotiations without forcing speaker mccarthy to have a full budget. >> saying this was going to be a huge deal if democrats don't get this done now, the debt ceiling . let me ask you about progressives. you worked in the white house, for president biden's campaign. you also worked for bernie sanders, so does president biden stand to lose progressives if he compromises with the republicans on some of the things that they want, maybe work requirements? >> i think work requirements are a red line for progress is, key senate democrats, and frankly a red line for the congressional black caucus. all of the groups i named put out statements when they heard this was potentially on the table, that then if you listen to what the president then said after those statements around ether, he made clear he wasn't talking about medicare,

medicaid, he wouldn't do anything to hurt working people. again, there's a couple of people that have been in the room, two people in the room monday night. >> when you look at the polling on work requirements, if able bodied people can work, they should work, and should be required to work in order to get the benefits. why do progressives think that's not an accurate description of a work requirement? >> look when we boil down to what we're talking about, we are talking about putting work requirements on people -- who said they didn't want to work. we're putting requirements on people to access s.n.a.p. benefits, food stamps, the resources people need because they are not making enough money to be able to put food on the table to feed their families, so they need this little government extra assistance to make that happen. who said that people aren't working. i think when we go down the line and start slapping work requirements on folks who are dealing with who are in some of the most challenging situations

in this country, yet you've got, you know, this is what the progressives would say, millionaires and billionaires, even some people in the united states congress whom none of the same things apply to them. it seems a little lopsided and progressives, their stance has been the progressive black caucus, key senate democrats who all do identify on the letter as progressive, that that is not what we should be doing. if we're talking about supporting working people in this country, if we're talking about looking out for the least of these, that includes people who are struggling. >> symone sanders, always great to have you, good to see you in person. what does tim scott think he has that donald trump doesn't have, and who he had by his side. and what a judge ruled today in the case against bryan kohberger, the man accused of murdering four idaho college students. >> and who is harlan crow, and

what does he say he thought he was doing when he took justice clarence thomas on his yacht? the atlantic went to the billionaire's house which is filled with statues of dictators to see what's going on with crow's lavish gift giving. we're back in 60 seconds. givin. we're back in 60 seconds it's your verizon.

(woman) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need. (man) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon. he thinks he can win. senator tim scott of south carolina jumped into the 2024 race for president, claiming that he is the best republican candidate. they're attacking our american values, our schools, our economy, and our security. but not on my watch. not on my watch. that won't work. i'm the candidate the far left fears the most. >> joining me now from north charleston, south carolina, is

nbc news correspondent ali vitali. when he says he's the candidate that the far left fears the most, what is he talking about? >> reporter: look, this was tim scott's attempt not just to introduce himself to the american public, but really the first time the biggest stage he's had but also his attempt to set up a binary but not with republicans, but squarely go at the white house, joe biden, those were the names he singled out during this roughly 45-minute address in north charleston instead of going at the people who he has to beat first, katy, which is donald trump and the rest of the republican field. i'm told by senior scott advisers that we shouldn't expect him to go heavily on the contrast front against other republicans. they think that the contrast point will be more of him as a messenger, not on message. if you look at a lot of things he was touting even today during his speech, he talked about the gains he was able to make as a partner with the trump

administration, for example, during the trump tax cuts being able to carve out policy positions like opportunity zones he used as a place that he can do when given the room to run frankly, from a policy perspective in washington. i do think it's notable when he talked about today versus what he didn't talk about today, this is a man who wants to steep his campaign in a faith-based argument. he talked about what his faith means to him as an evangelical. at the same time, though, no mention of abortion and keeping what he would call a pro-life position. when i interviewed him last a few weeks ago, he's someone who said to me that his goal would be, in his words, literally sign the most conservative pro life legislation that a congress would give him if he were commander in chief. that of course wasn't the message today, but it's going to be central when he tries to go to these places like iowa, parts of his home state of south carolina, to really appeal to the more religious base of the republican movement. that could be a way that he could peel off people from

donald trump, even though you and i both know evangelicals have consistently stood by the former president, and maybe we'll continue to. >> ali vitali, thank you very much. and joining me now is chief communications adviser for former house speaker paul ryan, brendan buck. let's talk about senator thune who was standing by his side, endorsed him for this announcement, does senator thune make a difference. is the amount of money that tim scott has been able to raise and get on the air waves immediately with make a difference for tim scott? >> tim scott, i think, is going to be a very popular choice for a lot of people in washington. i don't mean that in a disparaging way, people that know him, who have been around him, look, tim scott is a good, decent, honest, principled person. i think he is a general election dream candidate. the question is whether that's actually what republican-based voters, primary voters are looking for these days. i'm not quite so sure that it is. he has a lot of things going for

him. i mean, as mentioned, he is a good communicator, he's got lots of money. he knows the issues. he has that evangelical base. the question is whether he's going to be able to turn any of that into real momentum. i think tim scott is probably the type of person, the more you see him, the more you're going to like him. i think he's going to have a moment. the question is whether he can excite people. he's not a performative politician like a lot of people, and that seems to be what's in advocate today. any polling shows he's in the single digits, and you have to catch people's attention to get out of that race. >> i want to put up a cbs poll which caught my eye this morning. this is what 2024 gop primary voters prefer in a candidate. 85% say they want a candidate to challenge woke ideas, 66% oppose gun restrictions, 61% want them to say that trump won in 2020. 57%, and this is the one that really caught my eye want

somebody who's going to make liberals angry, and do you think that's the reason why tim scott said that he thinks that he's the candidate the far left fears the most? it felt like a weird thing for him to say, especially considering you're about to have desantis in the race, and donald trump's already in the race. >> i'm imagining what he meant by that is he's a great general election candidate, not that he's the most fire and brimstone conservative, if we were to get to general election, i think he would have a good chance of beating joe biden, and maybe he's running in the i'm more electable argument. problem is lots of people are making the i'm more electable argument, and not a lot of people are going after their fellow republican competitors. once again we have a candidate who says they're going to focus on joe biden, i give him slack in the beginning to define himself but at some point, you have to realize you're running against donald trump or at least running against some of the other people to be the

alternative to donald. >> brendan buck, thank you very much. coming up, a city decimated what bakhmut means for russia's war against ukraine. plus, bryan kohberger was back in court. what he did not say today. n cou. what he did not say today. ing with type 2 diabetes, i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. from big cities, to small towns,

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moscow is claiming victory in one of the longest and bloodiest battles in ukraine. soldiers waived the russianflag over the destroyed city of

bakhmut yesterday after a month's long fight. despite confusing comments from president volodymyr zelenskyy at this weekend's g7, ukrainian officials say the city has not been taken. nbc news correspondent molly hunter has been more. >> reporter: it is so hard to figure out exactly what is happening. these battlefield lines, the front line, i should say is shifting around bakhmut. what happened over the weekend is that both the wagner group, that is the mercenary group on the front lines led by evgeni , putin congratulated russian troops, even one of the anchors claimed mission accomplished. they showed videos of soldiers waving russian flags on the rubble of bakhmut. that was over the weekend, and what's happening today is ukrainian officials are acknowledging they don't control anything significant. they don't have a significant foothold in that city which has

been really fierce urban combat, lots of high-rise buildings when you look at those pictures. what they're saying is they're fighting along the flanks. this is now a battle for the outskirts. bakhmut, itself, it was home to 80,000 people before the war. it is obliterated now. when you see pictures, it is uninhabitable. no one lives there. we heard president zelenskyy speaking over the weekend, and he said, no one, nothing is there. they have destroyed it all except for russian dead bodies. but what's happened is because it has been such a long battle, it is now incredibly strategic for russia on the ukrainian side, they have long said that really what their troops are doing there are keeping russian forces occupied. they are keeping a huge amount of resources in a protracted battle, and that allows the ukrainian battle, excuse me, the ukrainian military to rearm and reorganize. elsewhere of course we have heard about the counter offensive. we do not know when exactly that will start. we do expect president zelenskyy to return from japan. he comes back triumphantly with

that huge package, 335 million in u.s. military aid and of course that agreement to start forming an international coalition around f-16 fighter jets. back to you. >> joining me now is pentagon correspondent, courtney kube. let's talk about what's been happening or what had happened at the g7 and the new round of military aid. walk us through it. >> there's not a whole lot of capability in the package. it's relatively standard size for a presidential draw down authority. it includes, as you see on the screen, some additional ammunition. that's key. that's something we're seeing in all of these aid packages to ukraine because that's what they really need is ammunition, including artillery, anti-tank as you see there. in addition, we're seeing things for the coming offensive that we have all sort of been waiting to kick into high gear, including things like vehicles. while there was no new equipment or weapons systems in this package for ukraine, it was symbolic in the fact that

president biden, president zelenskyy, were able to see each other, you know, face to face, and the president was able to announce it there at that setting, katy. >> how does the u.s. see bakhmut? >> so that's a great question. i have been asking that same question. u.s. officials say at this point there's no strategic value. it's exactly what molly was just explaining. this tactic that the ukrainians have been employing to exhaust the russian military, to run down their ammunition, and their forces in this protracted battle. this was a nine-month long battle that as molly said, destroyed a 400-year-old city, but it didn't have a real strategic value. it became more symbolic in the waning months of this battle as the russians really needed a win, and as molly said, there are no civilians left there. there's nothing left. the city is destroyed, president zelenskyy said the same thing over the weekend in japan, but as far as a strategic value, because there is a defense industry there, that simply is not the case, katy.

>> courtney kube, thank you very much. and coming up, statues of dictators, hitler's teapot and his table linens, what exactly is the deal with billionaire republican donor, and close friend of clarence thomas, harlan crow. the atlantic paid him a visit. the marine veteran who held jordan neely in a choke hold explains himself. what he told the "new york post." himself what he told thene "w york post." my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. (woman) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. ask your asthma specialist and only pay for what i need. (man) now i'm in charge...

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today a judge formally entered a not guilty plea on behalf of the man accused of stabbing four university of idaho students to death in their shared off campus home. it was bryan kohberger's first appearance since he was indicted by a grand jury on four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary. joining me from moscow, idaho, is nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin. what else happened in that hearing today? >> reporter: hey, katy. first, we have a new statement from the family of caylee gone -- one of the four students murdered. the family thanking the media for their coverage of this proceeding. the family would like to thank everyone for continue to go follow this case, and keep the memories alive, they are what's

important not the defendant. the proceeding lasted some 15 minutes. the arraignment hearing, the judge reading out the charges against the defendant, bryan kohberger, he said when asked if he understood the charges against him, he said yes. when asked if he had a copy of the grand jury indictment, which was reached last week, he said yes. but when he was asked to enter a plea, he stood silent. his attorney making it known that that was going to be his stance, that he would not formally enter a plea, and so the judge formally entered the plea on his behalf, speaking to legal experts here in idaho. they are kind of scratching their heads, they're not sure why bryan kohberger would do that. one expert telling me there's really no advantage, per se, in not entering a plea, but it does move things along because that not guilty plea has been entered on his behalf, it triggers a series of processes. he has a trial date set for october 2nd.

it also gives the prosecution some 60 days to file a motion, declaring whether or not it intends to pursue the death penalty. katy. >> wow, erin mclaughlin, thank you very much. it's such a terrible story out of moscow. the former marine charged in a choke hold death in a new york city subway is speaking publicly for the first time. in an interview with the "new york post," 24-year-old daniel penny gave few details about the confrontation that led to jordan neely's death, but he did insist that it, quote, had nothing to do with race. he also told the post that he would not have done anything differently when he placed the homeless and mentally ill 30-year-old in a fatal choke hold earlier this month. penny is out on bail and faces a charge of second-degree manslaughter. in an emotional eulogy at neely's funeral in harlem on friday, reverend al sharpton

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enchts. harlan crow continues to defend the generous, and undisclosed gifts he has given to supreme court justice clarence thomas. crow attempted to explain away any accusations of corruption when it comes to his relationship with thomas, he says he's never tried to influence a case in the supreme court adding quote, it would be absurd to talk to justice thomas about supreme court cases because that's not my world. graham wood joins me now. congratulations on the interview. i just think that when you read the story about harlan crow and you realize what a curious mind he has, obviously, and we'll talk about what he has in his house, and the people that he's collected over his life, the i%1t,endship, but we understand a w wh i friends. that moment, graham, and there's also at the moment at the end where you are taken to look for some nazi memorabilia in his house because he also collects that, and he's kind of found to have misled you. can you explain? >> harlan crow, in addition to being a real estate magnet is an incredible collector of historical memorabilia. it's not a house, it's a museum. he lives in a museum, and in that museum, there's this small portion of the collection devoted to nazi memorabilia, incoming a teapot with adolph hitler's initials on it. i want to see the pictures, this has caused a lot of hurt around people who are close to me, and

that hurts me. i really don't want to cause pain to people ors of to them, but i'll show it to you. he opened up the case where he had kept it, and someone had moved it. i mean, he's got such a large collection of historical memorabilia that some of it, he literally seemed not to know where it was, and to be surprised by its absence. there was a card there saying never again, this stuff is bad stuff, we understand that. but it's odd to lose track of your nazi stuff, yeah! some people might say it's odd to have nazi stuff. how does he, i mean, it's not just the just the nazi stuff. he has winston churchill and statues of stalin and maybe lennon. >> four lennons, in fact. >> he has a worl of memorabilia relating to our political history, especially from the 1940s on. how does he view the nazi memorabilia in his collection,

especially considering so many people would say even having it would mean that you sympathize with it. >> yeah, i could understand why people wouldn't want to have any nazi memorabilia close to their personal belongings. he is a collector of the statutes, the heads of tyrants. so he described to me in great zee tail his view of the 20th century as a century defined by a struggle between freedom and tyranny and he thinks of nazism, of communism, of all sorts of other isms, as tyrannies vanquished by the forces of good in the 20th century and his generation had this struggle between communism and capitalism and it is something he thought should be remembered and he considered nazism, communism, in a graveyard of discarded and

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what would happen if your city, two your city if half of the people who go to the office

stopped. economists say it could be very, very bad. between remote work, which is no end in sight, high inflation, and climbing interest rates, many companies are rethinking whether they need all of their pre-pandemic office space. and more are accusing to close up shop in numbers not seen since the 2008 financial crisis. the amount of office space available for lease in manhattan for example, has reached a record high during the first four months of 2023. according to the real estate watchers. but that is nothing compared to what is happening in los angeles. where nearly a quarter of office spaces are sitting empty. joining me now is cnbc's diana olick. what is doing to l.a.? >> it is meaning a lot of distress. we talk about manhattan and new york city and they did hit the

high of 17% vacancy but l.a. just hit 22.5%. and this is about 61% more than pre-pandemic levels. and what is being leased is actually not being used very much. the average occupancy, the people going into work every day, even if the office is leased, is 49%. that is lower than the national average in l.a. so we've seen distress in the market and it is worse in downtown l.a. compared to west l.a. where you have more tech and media. but for this entire market, it is going to mean a lot of distress ahead for investors in commercial real estate. >> so there is also a housing crisis in los angeles. a lot of people can't afford to get housing in the city or the county and it is creating a homelessness crisis, in part. that is the issue. any taum about converting office spaces into residential spaces? >> reporter: well that is interesting. i'm based in d.c., and there is a fair amount of office conversion from the old offices that were in government

buildings to apartments which are much needed. but not every office building could be converted. in fact, the older ones, it is very difficult. simply because of the way these office buildings are built. they have a lot of the offices around the window areas and nothing in the middle. you can't put an apartment in the middle of a building with no air, no space to the windows. and so because these are very dense, large office buildings some can be converted and some can't and then you have to pencil whether or not that renovation cost is going to be worth it to a developer who would then rent it out because they want high rent for it and if you're looking to affordable housing, you're not going to get that. >> we talked about after the 2008 financial crisis. it bounced back. is there an expectation this is an extended dip? >> reporter: well, it is a bit different than that. remember the great financial crisis, it was bad for a while but then the economy came roaring back and the government put a lot of money into the banking system. again, this is different because

post pandemic, it is changed the way we live and it is changed the way we work. so you have a lot of people who are still working. it is not about the economy. it is about their desire to be in an office versus being in a home office and having the flexibility. so i think it is going to be tougher for the office market to bounce back because of that pandemic effect. >> diana, thank you very much. i was going to ask about traffic but i want to make you fight the traffic noises behind you. thank you so much. appreciate it. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. there is brand-new reporting on a pizza of evidence in the hands of jack smith that could, might em ernl as a critical building block in any classifie