the way we work. so you have a lot of people who are still working. it is not about the economy. it is about their desire to be in an office versus being in a home office and having the flexibility. so i think it is going to be tougher for the office market to bounce back because of that pandemic effect. >> diana, thank you very much. i was going to ask about traffic but i want to make you fight the traffic noises behind you. thank you so much. appreciate it. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. there is brand-new reporting on a pizza of evidence in the hands of jack smith that could, might em ernl as a critical building block in any classified

documents probe. the guardian is reporting that federal prosecutors have that donald trump was put on notice that he could not retain any classified documents after he was subpoenaed last year. the warning conveyed to trump by his lawyer evan corcoran could be significant surrounding his handlings of classified materials gib it shows he knew about his subpoena on lig aigs. saz we've reported before sand when it comes to questioning about whether trump committed obstruction, jack smith and his prosecutors are zeroing in on a specific period of time. the weeks and months after trump was served a subpoena from doj and all classified documents in his possession. and before that court approved search of mar-a-lago back in august that turned up more than 100 items and you guessed it, they were marked classified. that is despite the fact that trump's legal team in that window had attested and told

investigators that they already handed over everything. that was classified. the guardian adds this reporting, in particular prosecutors have fixated on trump's valet. walt. after he told the justice department that trump told him to move boxes out of the storage room before and after the subpoena. the activity was captured on subpoenaed surveillance footage. though there were gaps in the tapes. well, now, according to the guardian, jack smith has notes from evan corcoran that could fill in the understanding of what happened after the may 2022 subpoena. they also provide important new details on the role of trump's own valet in the handling of the classified docs. the notes were presented to the d.c. grand jury that is hearing all of this evidence in the case. after the special council asked a federal judge to pierce attorney/client privilege and force corcoran to testify and hand over documents. jack smith won that case because

judges agreed with jack smith's argument that there was reason to believe that trump could have used corcoran's legal advice to commit a crime. the guardian said that corcoran's warning to trump about the need to hand over all classified documents was, quote, one of several key moments that corcoran preserved in rustily 50 pages of notes described to the guardian anonymously. the notes revealed how trump had unusually detailed knowledge of the botched subpoena response, including where corcoran intended to search and not search for classified documents at mar-a-lago. as well as when corcoran was actually doing his search. the notes described how corcoran told about the subpoena before he started looking for classified documents. because corcoran needed him to unlock the storage room which prosecutors have taken as a sign that he was closely involved and essentially in every step of the search. notes from a key trump attorney

that reveal what trump and his aides knew and when they knew it about classified documents and their location at mar-a-lago is where we begin with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" reporter glenn flush is back. plus former u.s. attorney and deputy attorney gary litman. and msnbc political contributor and betsy juan and basil smikle is back. director of the public policy program at hunter college. betsy, let me start with you. for our viewers who really i think have followed everything that has been revealed by the government and pretty extraordinary disclosures, after the court approved search of mar-a-lago. i think we'll remember that this has been a real focus for prosecutors. and i think it was when we saw the surveillance tape in the

affidavit that goes before the court. and we know they don't just have someone telling them what happened to the classified docs. they've seen some of it with their own eyes. talk about how corcoran's notes fill in what may be missing when they could watch toer their own eyes that could move the boxes and when. >> -- targeting the president, written notes or typed contemporaneous notes are often the keys to the kingdom. i wan to be clear that we haven't confirmed the guardian's reporting about this particular batch of notes that the paper is reporting. the special council has. but in general, these are the kind of things that prosecutors are always looking for when they're figuring out issues such as state of mind. questions in terms of what trump knew about the subpoena, what he knew was expected of himself and how he knew his attorneys planned to act in response to

the subpoena. that is the type of information that would be essential for a prosecutor to have when deciding whether or not to bring charges. it is the sort of thing that you would certainly expect jack smith and members of his teams would be asking almost everybody for. did you write any of this down? did you text it? did you email it? is there any documentation so that prosecutors don't have to rely simply on what could be people's faulty or conflicting memories. so notes are always really, really important in an investigations like this. and in addition to that, lawyers like evan corcoran and as you remember trump's saga going back for years, lawyers like jim comey, other lawyers that have interacted with president trump write stuff down because they expect it to become an issue down the road. that is the nature of how the legal profession works and it is part of the reason when there is this piercing of the attorney/client privilege, such as the type that jack smith

secured, that is part of the reason prosecutors like jack smith want to try to get rid of that privilege when they have the option because of these types of memos, these type of documents that of course have the potential to be extraordinarily useful. >> betsy raises such a good point. jim comey who wrote down everything, including the color of the carpet every time he was in aroom with trump and to don mcgahn. i forget the chief of staff. i think it is mrs. donaldson. became the fabric of the mueller volume 2 of the construction report. those are from the chief of staff notes. the extraordinary piece that we shouldn't gloss over is the only reason lawyers or we'll stay specific with mr. corcoran, the only reasonable access to his notes on the table because a federal judge decided that it is more likely than not that a crime was committed. talk about what has been opened

up that may not be public facing to all of us. >> well the notes, and again we haven't confirmed it either. but it really does, if true, explain why jack smith was to adamant about invoking what is called the crime fraud exception for -- for attorney/client privilege. and as betsy said, what is the line about trump his lawyers. lawyers who need other lawyers. >> yeah. making lawyers get lawyers. >> right. and evan corcoran, for people who may not be aware of what his recent past has been, was a federal prosecutor for a number of years. pretty well regarded. was out of the legal business for a period of time. doing various other things. and his re-entry was to represent january 6 folks and steve bannon and that is how he got into trump's orbit. so he was sort of like many people who have been hired to provide the president with legal

counsel over the years. he's a relatively new entrance. and what the guardian story seems to indicate and sort of reinforce to some reporting we did back last year, was that corcoran was telling people that he was pretty confident that he was not going to face too much legal exposure personally based on what was then believed to be a inaccurate attestation that all of the documents requested were going to be found. so, it is perhaps, and again we have not confirmed this reporting, but it would explain why corcoran has at least in private been fairly confident that he, himself, has some sort of evidence or documentation that would -- that would put him somewhat more in the clear. >> harry, let's flush that out a little bit. this is some reporting, i believe in "the new york times," that the story that the lawyers

told, and glenn, jump in if i get this wrong, but christina bob, she was what was represented to her by mr. corcoran and this is all about what they did, after the government subpoenaed classified documents. so the government like a parent said i see you and i know what you got and i'm going to give you one more chance to turn it all over. this is what about what they do then. this is a narrow window of what they do after they've been seen by the fbi and doj. and we know from past reporting by betsy and glenn's news organizations and ours, that what they did was clearly obstruct the investigation. that is documented in the application for a search warrant of mar-a-lago. but tell me how this reporting builds on the lies that we know they essentially concede to having told, that is why christina bob has a lawyer. walt nowton who has a lawyer and has been questioned and the government doesn't believe he's

been truthful and what feels like a flashing red light, the surveillance footage. we don't know the extent of what they have on camera. but it is more than nothing. >> it is a potential goldmine. so, look, just as you said, this is really important to emphasize the juncture we're at. we've seen trump bob ab weave and said could we have more time, stalls and now we get the subpoena. you even without this evidence, you know that is the sort of crystal moment where you're going to be a criminal or you're going to do what almost anyone would do, fully comply. second, crime fraud exception, not only really breathtaking in itself, about you it means that probably corcoran, as he's doing, 50 pages of notes isn't expecting it to be turned over. and it is got everything, including trump's facial expressions and reactions when he's told certain things. trump is upset, in fact, at how

detailed they are. the way it would work, is he would get on the stand and it is all admissible because it is contemporaneous. that is a little evidentiary point. and it will be up on a big screen. the jury will see it and then you told him this, didn't you mr. corcoran and he responded that and when you say he grimaced, what do you mean? this is a building block. i mean already smith has a building. but this is really the penthouse of possible evidence of an obstruction case, of trump knowing where they were and consciously deciding i'm not going to give them what they're asking for. that is just unassailable strong criminal obstruction case. >> i think this is also a story, basil, of how far post rule of law trump operates. because their jobs wither to tell him where he was exposed legally. right. so they get a subpoena and they're reading to him and they

know what they're asking for and they know what he wants to keep, it is classified material. and he thought he would just imagine it declassified and keep it. we know from reporting from both glenn and betsy organizations, that we had cockeyed plans to keep it and trade it for other -- he had no intention of giving it back. and what is revealed is not just the weakness of the men and women who functioned as his lawyers who are now witnesses against him before jack smith's grand jury. but the effect of seven years of nobody holding him accountable. >> nobody holding him accountable. and you know, the first thing that came to mind as you do in your story, this valet is being set up to be the fall guy for this whole thing it seems. if no one else -- >> and he's not cooperating to someone is giving him different direction than the federal government. >> exactly right. and i look at this and to your point, these are attorneys that do what attorneys do. they take notes and they make these contemporaneous moats and

it reveals in many ways the corrupting nature of donald trump. how he corrupts everything around him. he forces people who i may not agree on any policy issue. but for whatever their professional responsibilities are and licenses are, he finds ways to get them to con tort in such a way that they're doing his bidding, having nothing to do with the legal ramifications but all about the loyalty to the man. and that is the challenge that i think we all have going forward in terms of holding him accountable. because there are people there around him that don't care that much about the professional responsibility. they care about how they make this man feel. whether he gets up in the morning and said this is person is good to me and that person is not and that is all that matters here. he knew exactly what was he doing. he knew if the face of the challenges to get this material to where it needed to be that he was going to turn around and say no, it is mine. i don't care what anybody said. and there were tons of people

around him willing to go that distance with him. and that is what is so scary. it is not just the man. it is the corrupting nature of the envelope that surrounds him. >> and i think betsy, this is sort of different orbits and i know you and glenn have both done reporting on not just the people around trump, but lawyers around trump. books have been written by bill barr and sort of the sessions, rosenstein's tenure. but the truth is the only variable is who trump is steam rolling over. and at some point it looks like this story is shaping up to be jack smith and donald trump. >> yeah, i think there is no question that ultimately that is going to be the constant once we get to the point where this investigation is resolved. something that has to be noted is the extent to which jack smith has questioned almost if not every person around trump. and he basically turned mar-a-lago upside down, shook it really hard and interviewed every single person who rolled out the number of staff

throughout that company who he's talked to, the incredible breadth of witnesses that have been brought in to the grand jury is quite extraordinary. and, of course, the fact that multiple trump lawyers working on this particular matter have spoken to jack smith's grand jury is itself the type of dynamic that really can't be overemphasized just how extraordinary of a departure this is from the way criminal defense -- criminal defendants and their lawyers typically operate. trump himself is a real handful to put it gently for any sort of criminal defense because of the way he's interacing with the media. not just because he's running for president, because he's fielding questions about those particular criminal investigations that are targeting him. so it should not come as a surprise that the people in the envelope that basil mentioned are a cohort of people who are extraordinarily stressed and

dealing with a big unusual, very atypical set of circumstances and challenges. >> i mean, glenn, someone to whom it would be typical set of circumstances and challenges are his giant cod ray of ex lawyers. here is one of them, ty cobb. >> all they really have to do is show that trump moved these documents at various times, when doj was either demanding them or actually present, that he filed falsely with the justice department and had his lawyers file falsely with the justice department and an affidavit to the effect that none existed which was, you know, shattered by the documents that they then discovered after the search and the many other misrepresentations that he and others have made on his behalf with regard to his possession of classified documents. so, i think this is a -- i think

this obstruction case is a tight case and yes, i do think he'll go to jail on it. >> describing it as tight and certain to send him to jail is notable only because it comes from someone who represented trump in the mueller probe. and who -- i think others saw his obstruction seeking to fire comey and mcgahn and rosenstein. it was at tight as could be. because he was president, there wasn't any consequence for that black and white, written for everybody to read evidence of obstruction of justice. what is sort of prevailing sentiment about whether ty cobb is correctly assessing the case in the mar-a-lago documents probe. >> i think the other characteristics of trump lawyers is they don't seem to like him that much. so i don't know the extent to which we could regardless of what is -- is being uncovered in the direction that jack smith is going, there is a long road ahead of us. we shouldn't get too far ahead.

but i will say one thing about when we looking at all of this stuff, to just step back a bit that someone would have to be told what a subpoena means. think of it in the context of your own life. if the department of justice issued a subpoena to you, to tell you to return documents that did not belong to you, would you need an intermediary to explain to you the gravity of that situation. so, to some extent, former trump has distorted our out look to such an extent that we would believe anyone that would need to explain to him what needed to be done. now, he has argued thus far unsuccessfully in court an alternative view of executive privilege and i presume he'll continue to do that. but i think the minute doj issued a subpoena, donald trump had pretty fair warning about the direction this was headed in. >> and harry, to be fair, i mean

glenn is making an important point. we know trump well enough to know the subpoena didn't have to be explained to him, but hor far he could push and bend the rule of law because for seven years, he's done nothing in response to anything as it pertained to classified documents or investigations into him, even when national security was at the center of it. >> glenn is exactly right. you don't need to be told even donald trump, when the subpoena arrives. that is why he's identified it already as the sort of moment you would organize an obstruction case around. but having all of the information that he was told, only increases and gives smith cumulative testimony. one point about smith, we've all thought since around corcoran testified, he's got a complete case. but remember the federal grand jury is really useful not to just bring charges but to investigate and i think the signs are clear now he's doing everything that he can to get all of the information he can, know what people are going to

say and be careful about it because once any charges are returned, you can't use it that way any more. it is disbanded. so that is why we're in a waiting game even though the signs i think continue to be correct that he has put together already a prosecutable case. >> and that is a question i asked here all of the time. why hasn't he charged the obstruction case yet. i want to push on that open door that you just opened for me, harry, a little bit further on the other side of a break. we're also going to turn our sights to florida. with the governor of that state is prepared to launch his candidacy for president this week. the naacp has come out with a rare warning about him and his policies as he seeks to expand them nationally. we'll explain that to you. and later in the broadcast, the leader of russia has jumped feet first into the 2024 republican primaries, coming out and doing the bidding out loud and on paper again of the twice impeached once indicted lie able

for sexual assault ex president putting out a list of so-called bad actors who look an awful like trump's perceived political domestic enemies. how russia's foreign policy appears to simply amount to electing donald trump. we'll bring all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go any where today.

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there are certain individuals that made defending the president much harder than it needed to be. in particular, there is one individual who worked for him, boris epstein, who had really done everything he could to try to block us to prevent us from

doing what we could to -- to defend the president. he was not very honest with us or with the client on certain things. there were certain things like the searches that he had attempted to interfere with. >> you said that boris tried to prevent you from conducting searches. what searches are those. >> those are the searches at bedminster initially. there was a lot of pushback from him where he didn't want us to doing the search and we had to eventually overcome him. >> donald trump's ex-lawyers will give the real housewives a run for them money on the sunday cable talk shows. there are so many talking about what went wrong. that one was former trump attorney tim palatore. we have some reporting on this part of the story? >> that is right. i was in touchdown with parlatore in that striking cnn

interview. one piece of this particular situation that perhaps flown under the radar because there has been so much on the radar, is reporting that he and jim trusty in recent weeks traveled to florida to tell trump essentially to try to disinvolve boris epstein from the criminal defense work that we were involved in as it related to the mar-a-lago classified documents situation. what he told me is that trump took their advice and told epstein that he needed to step back or be less involved in that criminal defense work. however, parlatore despite that still departed trump's legal team, boris epstein is still a close adviser to the president, still working closely with him on any matter of issues and he said part of the reasons he decided to leave despite trump taking the advice that he and trusty gave was because it didn't get -- shall we say the behavioral change that he was hoping would occur in regards to the role that boris epstein was

playing on trump's legal team in terms of his legal defense. it sounds like there were more inner personal tensions, more friction in the wake of that conversation between parlatore and trump himself and of course here we are. one more former trump lawyer going on cnn, going on cable news to explain dramatic departure from the president's team. parlatore was also a important member. he was the lead author of a letter that trump's lawyers sent, i believe just last month, to members of congress including a lot of details about these documents marked as classified and that letter also said that they believed biden, as well as trump and mike pence, should not face any sort of legal ramifications for having classified documents. that is notable because of the difference in shall we say tenure between the way trump's lawyers were talking versus the way trump himself and many of

his right-wing surrogates have talked about that. so now parlatore has departed and where we're left is a legal team that was always a little bit slap dash continuing in that way minus one important person. >> i mean, i'm not going to play it but bill barr yesterday, glenn, said all along, the case i'm most concerned about if i was the former president is the mar-a-lago case. he agrees with ty cobb that this is criminal peril for donald trump. the reason parlatore left is because one of the things is not like the others. only trump's documents probe faces obstruction of justice investigation with lawyers who flipped on trump by the bushel. >> right. >> what is the sort of view from inside of the justice department about how ripe the obstruction case really is?

>> well i think it is not clear, you know there has been a level of confidence in the construction as opposed to the espionage mentioned in the affidavit from the start. it is a easier prima facia case to bring. and what is interesting is parlatore was questioning boris epstein's legal experience. i believe it is 18 months with a private law firm. you know, for those who don't now trusty very well, trusty is kind of a grizzle department of justice veteran who was a pretty big shot in the criminal division for a fairly long period of time. in fact, he worked on a lot of cases with jack smith when jack smith was in the public integrity unit. these guys know each other really, really well. and parlatore has also had his own experiences as a criminal defense attorney. so if you could picture this. you have epstein who is an associate of eric trumps from school, who had a brief and

unhappy experience in the west wing, then went over to sinclair media, was sort of a comes guy who then shoe horned his way into a legal role in the post presidency. kind of running the show on top of people who had considerably more experience in the criminal justice realm, including corcoran, who was a long tenured u.s. prosecutor. so, it is -- it is -- in terms of any other context in trump world, this is a very questionable kind of setup. but it makes all of the sense in the world in terms of the way that the former president does business. >> he also is in capable of firing anybody. steve bannon was fired. corey lewandowski was fired. >> i'm always curious that the line that seems to the bun that they won't cross when former lawyers -- when trump's former attorneys say, well that is a bridge too far. i'm always amazed at the line that they say they won't cross. because barring any

interpersonal conflict, they would still be riding with the guy. >> i would still be there but for boris. >> but if you have any questions about how close those two were, remember that the fact that boris was sitting next to him when he was being indicted in a new york criminal court. so anybody that questions how close boris is regardless of what his title is and whether or not he's a good lawyer or a bad lawyer, he has trump's ear. and he has had it for -- or at least tried to get it for quite sometime. whether he's always been successful it another story. but this is a person who is trying to proect it the president politically, legally it doesn't even matter because what they appear to believe is that they could shift -- they could try to shift the law, shift the players, play this game of obfuscation, because what the american people, going back to the point, what the american people want is loyalty. they want to see that you're loyal to the man and what boris is trying to do outside of the

law is prove his loyalty to the man. >> and importantly, that is what resonated with the client, donald trump. harry, i think you made an important point about timing. i wan to come back to it. explain what you're saying about the grand jury. so jack smith has this grand jury and any decisions related to mar-a-lago via obstruction and the underlying crimes have to be decided by this grand jury at the same time? did i totally torture that? >> no. but there is more than that. so grand juries do make decisions about torture. but -- i mean about charges. but they also -- they issue subpoenas. which must be complied with. so if you ask evan corcoran could i please have 50 pages of your notes. it is up to him. if you give him a grand jury subpoena, it must be produced. so grand juries are invaluable to prosecutors and to get the

evidence they can and get a sense of what different witnesses may say when the time comes and to have the ability to impeach them. now wait a second, didn't you tell the grand jury this or didn't your note say that. and it is sort of a legal corollary if you shoot, he wants really to have everything in order to -- if and when he brings the charges, when he brings the charges i'll say and for that you need to use the grand jury to its fullest. very quickly on parlatore, if i could mention. >> please. >> i think bazil made a great point. two things are going on. he is an over bearing jerk who does love to -- to monopolize the time with trump. but it is this interesting point in so far as trump has a strategy, and it is always perilous to do that, it has something to do with the political realm. maybe he thinks if he becomes president again it all goes away. but epstein in particular is the guy who is saying, and it is contrary to what conventional

legal advice would be, play the politics of it and every time trump plays the politics of it, he gets himself into deeper an hotter water legally. but epstein seems to be the guy saying do it anyway. and as basil and betsy said he seems to have trump's confidence for that reason. epstein is still playing a pretty significant role. >> yeah, and i mean that crystalized everything we've been talking about. the person driving trump's legal strategy is his top political adviser. which is why it is going the way it is going. which is fascinating. a higher stakes potential legal car crash to watch. thank you all so much for starting us off on this today. bazil sticks around as ron desantis further isolated his state from the rest of the nation on a policy level, a rare travel advisory for the state of florida due to what one group is calling his, quote, hostility

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independent moderate voters ahead of a presidential campaign season, what would he be doing differently than exactly what he's doing right now? after getting pants by disney in a fight he started, one that cost floridians $1 billion investment in their state economy. another of his so call anti-woke agendas is coming back to bite him in the you know where. he's expected to announce his candidacy, the naacp has issued a travel advisory for the state of florida citing the open hostility toward african americans, people of color and lgbtq and silencing african american voices. before traveling to florida, please understand that the state of florida devalues and marginalized the contributions of and the challenges faced by african americans and other minorities. joining our conversation, democratic strategist iesha

mills. i've talked for seven years about the asymmetry of covering trumpism in america, something to audacious and so unmanageable that the normal ways of responding are inadequate. this seems to address that asymmetry and say, i got this. what do you think? >> i think it was extremely clever and really appreciate the naacp's guidance on this issue. you know, i just took my family to spring break in florida recently. and i think about all of the folks who travel there for sun and joy and peace and restoration. and to be reminded that actually this is getting to the point where florida is about to be terrorist state to many of us here in america. as a lesbian and a black woman, i don't want to have anything to do with the place and i think about the other people that don't want to travel there either.

it is clever on behalf of the naacp for issuing this broad guidance. and it turns a remarkable, i think, lens, on the united states and highlights how bigotry and bias and ignorance do as much harm as we accuse other countries of doing to people that they suppress. >> you know, it is been pointed out to me by people who work in diplomatic circles that there are warnings spoken and unspoken about postings in the united states in part due to our gun violence and our political divisions and some of the policies. this feels like 2.0, the next version of that. you're reaction. >> i think that is absolutely right. and i imagine there could be more states that fall under this banner going forward. the naacp was right to do this. they joined other organizations that are supporting latino -- latino voters and residents in this country, particularly around the immigration stance in florida as well as lgbtq

communities. so, it is a broad coalition and it does two things. it said to florida, we could hurt you economically. you have a basketball team in the playoffs and two teams contending right now. there are a lot of people that we could say stop spending money and visiting your state and get foog contracts with some of your companies. so one we could hurt you economically. but two, they're also sending a message to say that anyone, whether you're a democrat or republican, that are running for any seat in that state, you better be able to respond to those issues and concerns because what florida is doing, what ron desantis is doing is not only ant thet cal, but to the majority of what americans think and want for themselves and their families right now. so it is one economics and two laying down a political marker for the future.

>> i covered dwyane wade and his family's decision to leave the state because it felt inhospitable to his trans child. and most people in florida don't have that choice. and figuring it out if it feels hostile. some have reported on this show, they're getting calls from parents and grandparents trying to figure out how to leave the state. but what is the -- what is the way to support the people who can't leave? >> we continue to lift them up. by talking about them. as we're doing right now. and so that they know that they are not struggling in silence and struggling and no one is paying attention. the reason that ron desantis is doing this has nothing to do with his direct neighbors in florida or their well being. it has everything to do with his political ambitions on a national scale. and so continuing to keep this conversation at the forefront about the people and how young

people in schools are being harmed, how students are now being robbed of the opportunity to learn about african american history and get college credit for their scholarship in the subject, just keeping this conversation in the national fray i think is really important because it makes those people seen and heard and makes sure that everybody in florida knows that we are with them and that we support them, despite the fact that they're leader only cares about getting out of florida or using florida as a stepping-stone for his own national ambitions. >> historically, voters do not like that when they feel used and abused for iowa campaign ads. listen to this. i think it applies. >> i fear we're watching the early decay of a deep rot that threatens to hollow out our future by eliminating our past. those who yearn to destroy history will not stop at our

history. they will go after the history of those we know, too. i could think of few greater threats to this nation than this threat to history. because this threat is going to have lasting consequences. not only because those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it, but because those who do not learn their past, will never learn their own power. celebrate your history. unapologetically. >> i feel like he's been watching some of the things you say. >> listen, it the great words. we know that education is about nation building. what we teach our kids and who gets to teach them is very important. that is why we have the sensitivities and vulnerabilities because it involved our kids. and what ron desantis is doing is saying my voters are becoming diverse and the voters are younger and they don't meet his view of the future so the way to tackle that is to now solely by

surely chip away at ways in which the young voters, those folks who could be mobilized against him, start chipping away at every opportunity they have to create their own identity and to mobilize and engage. the scary part is he feels that he could do that across the country with, if not from the bully pulpit of the white house, but with like-minded republican governors in other parts of the country. so it is very scary indeed. and that is why even what governor newsom is doing in california, how to hold the text book companies accountable. it is important to note how politicized and how -- politicized education could be and how much we could modify education in this country. so shining this bright light on it does help actually sort of eliminate of the some political pressure. >> and what is amazing all of the pressure is being applied if the right. >> that is right. when there is no example anywhere that less content benefits the student. the end product is the education

and the wholeness of a student, show me the stud yu by stripping away they came out better. nobody. >> there have been decades of attempts to make instruction por inclusive but what the right is doing is trying to reshape it and rethink it and make sure that with respect to racial hierarchy, that it is being told by one very specific perspective and that's the white male perspective. white male perspective in this country and that is an extraordinarily dangerous place for us to be in. >> it is unbelievable. we need you to stick around a little bit longer. the republicans got another candidate to talk about. jumping in the fray today. we'll hear from him next and tell you all about it. don't go anywhere. ingredients matter. that's why herbal essences is packed with naturally derived plant ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you don't. our sulfate-free collections smell incredible...

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to me. it sounds like you're trying draw a contrast there. what will you offer voters that former president trump will not? >> well, the question is i'm running for president, period. i plan to win. so the question is what do the voters want in their president? they want someone who can persuade on the issues that matter the most to them. >> that was my colleague nbc's tom llamas sitting down with gop senator and presidential candidate as of today tim scott. nbc news now tonight with tom llamas is a program that that full interview will debut on as well as "nbc nightly news." ayshia, it is an excellent set of questions being put to tim scott, and it is a rather excruciating baby step toward criticizing someone who when the shoe is on the other foot who will try eventually -- today he didn't start that, because donald trump is trying to kill the person he calls ron desanctimonious or something like that. but the reason trump beat 16

republicans in the primary is because they all started out like that. i've asked this question so many times since a town hall about a week ago. i'm getting tired of asking it. what do you think has changed in terms of political actors and political media since we did this in '16? >> oh, nicolle, that's such a difficult question, because the truth is that not a whole lot as changed. i think a lot of people have made millions, if not billions of dollars off of the shift and the way that media traffic guy who never should have been tracked helped him become president because he had a platform. i feel that that bully pulpit of having worked, and there hasn't been much that i have seen that has suggested that being, you know, nasty and evil just like what we saw him show up and do on cnn the other week is somehow derailing to trump. i don't think that much has

changed. i think that tim scott, though, jumping into this race is trying capitalize on two things. one, the fact that south carolina matters. south carolina absolutely matters. he knows it. he also recognizes that as a black man, there is something that he could attempt to exploit in a time when there are many sensible people who identify as conservative, might be trying to distance themselves from some of the racism claims and the white nationalism. so he gets that. the other thing that i believe he is trying to capitalize on at this point is he has nothing to lose. he's had really nowhere to go but up, and he is not going to fall down and lose his job unless something crazy happens. what has he got to lose by doing this? nothing. >> he got an important -- john thune introduced him today, an important member of mitch mcconnell's team. mitch mcconnell could star wearing a never trump t-shirt, the only way to make it clearer that he doesn't want trump on

the ticket. what do you think about this news today? >> well, i think it's important for the senator because it does lend some credibility to the campaign. but to aisha's point earlier, i do think that it makes sense for him in some respects. but i also go back to a point which i make frequently. if donald trump had not existed, this electorate would have created him. and so the only way to get rid of him is for that same group of people to take him down, which seems like it's unlikely to happen. so when you have a senator scott, when you have an asa hutchinson trying to be the alternative to donald trump, unless they are extraordinarily funded, which doesn't look like it may happen, i fear that there is really no voice that they're going lend to any potential opposition to this president. they don't present the alternative. so without that, you'd really just have donald trump and then just a lot of folks sort of in the periphery, trying to address some policy issues to sort of make other republicans feel okay with perhaps voting for donald trump, if they evenly have to,

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your secretary of state, raffensperger, raffensperger. i'm telling you, i think there is something wrong with him. this lunatic special prosecutor named jack smith, who others of his ilk say he's even worse than they are is only looking at trump. >> voting in overwhelming numbers to throw them the hell out of office, starting with this disgusting human being, latisha peek-a-boo james. >> he seeks to demonize and dehumanize. it's how he rolls. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 new york. it's no secret who trump is scared of, right? who he views as his domestic political enemies. it's anyone who doesn't roll over, anyone who dares to investigate him. people who don't give in to his pressure campaigns so it should come as no surprise that a strong trump ally recently took

steps to punish all three of those perceived domestic enemies. what is of note, though, is who that person is, none other than russian wartime president vladimir putin. among russia's new and expanded list of sanctioned americans are the names you just heard come out of donald trump's mouth, new york attorney general latisha james who sued for fraud. jack smith who currently oversees two criminal probes into trump, and georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger who did not comply with trump's request to find the exact amount of votes he would need to reverse his defeat in the state of georgia. even the officer that would fire the shot to kill ashli babbitt to protect the men and women at the january 6th insurrection is on vladimir putin list, a man trump has repeatedly attacked just last week calling him a, quote, thug. regarding the inclusion of these times of individuals, the "new york times" reports this. none of them has anything to do

with russia policy. and the only evident they would have come to moscow's attention is because trump has publicly assailed them. the russian foreign ministry offered no specific explanation for why they would be included on the list, but did say among its targets were, quote, those in government and law enforcement agencies who are directly involved in the persecution of dissidents in the wake of the so-called storming of the capitol. it is quite a stunning journey we've been through, isn't it, when it comes to the twice impeached, disgraced, indicted ex-president and his cozy ties to putin. nearly seven years ago he took to a podium and asked russia, if you're listening. hours later, russia responded. they attempted to hack into hillary clinton's campaign office. russia carried out a months' long multipronged campaign to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. it brought about the 23-month-long investigation by special counsel robert mueller. as president, trump sided with

putin over his own intelligence community, famously in helsinki, but not just that one time. he sought to strong-arm putin's adversary, ukraine, by withholding congressional approved military aid in a time of war. and last year he praised vladimir putin for launching its illegal war on ukraine, all of which brings us to this today, the moment where russia's foreign policy, as stated in black and white, is as plain and simple as the rnc platform, elect donald trump. as we see with putin making trump's perceived enemies his enemies as well. meanwhile, brad raffensperger took pride in putting out this quote, while i was previously unaware of my anti-russian activities, i accept the verdict of russia. truth and justice and the rule of law speaks for itself. i can see where my commitment to free, fair and accurate elections might speak truth to power and strong stance against war crimes would offend putin's

sensibilities. i suspect that i'm not their cup of russian tea. former u.s. ambassador to russia long ago sanctioned by vladimir putin, michael mcfaul is here as is former senator claire mccaskill is with us. and democratic strategist and director of policy program at hunter college, basil smikle is still around. ambassador, i start with you. this is a tool that putin has used. i know you have been sanctioned for years, but it is the most complete list of trump's perceived domestic political enemies that i have seen moscow produce. >> yeah, it's incredible. remember, i was sanctioned because they didn't like when i spoke up for democracy and human rights in russia before president trump was elected. this is just openly a message of support for donald trump. there is no other reason why those names are on there.

before they were much more subtle about it. even president putin was much more subtle about his support for donald trump. but no longer. and nicolle, if you watch russian television, i do so you don't have to, you will see it every night there. they are waiting for mr. trump to be reelected. they think that will be what will save them in ukraine. >> and just explain why. what are they waiting for? >> because mr. trump has expressed time and time again that edoesn't support ukrainian sovereignty. he wouldn't give them their weapons without some quid pro quo. he admires mr. putin, and they are banking on the fact that he would try to withdraw support from ukraine should he be reelected. now let's remember, number one, we're a democracy. we're not a monarchy. so just because he is elected president doesn't mean he could do that. number two, we're a member of a nato alliance. we're just not the only country there. so i don't think it will be as automatic as the russians believe. but there is no doubt in my mind that that's what they are hoping

for. >> well, let me -- let me respectfully press you on that. trump said last week the war would end in 24 hours. a former senior military official told me in the last six weeks that if trump had been there, it would have ended. he would have just given it to russia. h.r. mcmaster and dana powell traveled abroad with trump. it took i think four stops to affirm america's article 5 commitments. what makes you think that we would be able to stop him from tilting the war, handing ukraine to russia? >> let me be clear. i'm very, very nervous about that outcome for the war in ukraine. and by the way, let's be clear. this is a war in defense of democracy versus autocracy. it a war against annexation that the ukrainians are fighting. it's a war against imperialism. it has massive consequences, for instance, for our national security interest in asia. if putin wins in ukraine, that

emboldens xi jinping vis-a-vis taiwan. so when i hear some republicans supporting mr. trump, but saying they need to be tougher on china, that is a contradiction. but make no mistake. i'm nervous about that outcome. i just don't think it will be as automatic as mr. putin believes. even if the ukrainians do not have our military support, there is no doubt in my mind that they will continue to fight, even if their country is occupied, they will continue to fight with or without our weapons. >> such a harrowing scenario. someone who was involved in the national security early phases of the mueller probe said to me, ambassador mcfaul, that next time there wouldn't be the kind of collusion that would even invite a special counsel investigation because the russians and if he is so receptive again, they would find a way to do it through legal channels, such as moscow sanction list. where is your head about the

role that russia clearly plans to play in america's next presidential election? >> it's a great question, nicolle. i don't know the answer to it. in a way, they don't think that they need to. you know, their marginal contribution will be -- there is just so much disinformation out there domestically what they marginally contribute in 2016 will even be more marginal this time around. secondly, however, though, the stakes are higher. so if you see that it's a close election, they might be tempted to good in. i think the biggest difference is back in 2016, putin still kind of cared about the rules of the game, right. they tried to disguise what they were doing. they tried to hide what they were doing with their intelligence officers. now it's obvious he doesn't care about the international rules of the game. what he has done in ukraine has violated all of those. so he may be more emboldened to

be much more direct in interfering. >> claire, let me show you what vladimir putin had to say. now i would see this line of argument presented on fox news in the 8:00 hour after, but the first place i saw it was in an interview with my colleague keir simmons. >> did you order alexei navalny's assassination? >> translator: of course not. we don't have this kind of habit of assassinating anybody. that's one. number two is i want to ask you, did you order the assassination of the woman who walked into the congress and who was shot and killed by policemen? do you know that 450 individuals were arrested after entering the congress, and they didn't go there to steal a laptop. they came with political demands. >> now anyone that has covered some of the russian response to the war in ukraine knows that

russians get rounded up and jailed and imprisoned for simply protesting. but since this is vladimir putin we're talking about. and i saw that there. and i think it was days, maybe a day before tucker carlson was making the same argument. and of course this is donald trump's position. he's repeated it in a town hall last week. >> yeah, you've got a trio there. talk about the three amigos, tucker carlson, donald trump and vladimir putin. and i want to step back for a minute, nicolle, and look at this through a political lens. if you recall back in 2020, one of the accusations that was hurled against democratic candidates, many times very unfairly is that they were socialists. they were socialists. these were socialists. and this was attributed to maybe some of the margin shrinkage among latino voter, especially people who had come from countries where socialism had

squashed their freedom and their ability to succeed. you are now looking at a political combo, two people endorsing each other in politics, and one of them is running for president of the united states, and the other one is one of the largest and most important communist leaders of a socialist society. that's stunning. donald trump loves communism. he loves socialism. and by the way, ron desantis seems to kind of like it too since he wants the government to control business in florida. so what's ironic to me is you're not hearing -- can you imagine for a minute if a democratic candidate for president was playing cozy and was getting endorsed by a communist leader in this world? can you imagine how people's heads would explode in the republican party? they have their leading candidate that is playing

footsie with one of the most high profile socialists and communist leaders in the world. and all of them are like oh, well, you know. it's donald, you know. he's looking after us. >> yeah, i think john mccain would rise from the dead. but i think my question is they all know. lindsey graham knows. mitch mcconnell knows. the sanctions list has been out for i think 12 hours now. nothing, nothing. it's over. so who makes that argument, claire? and again, if it's a political argument, you think that should be front and center? who makes it? who gets that started in this country, in this debate? >> well, i think joe biden does. i think democrats running for office around the country, especially those that have input on our foreign policy. you know, the idea that this man would have the nerve to talk about a brave police officer defending the members of congress from a brutal attack of people who were bent on a coup,

the idea that he would equate that with the intelligence assassination of a political dissident is outrageous. i mean, forget about support the blue. they're calling this police officer a thug, and the biggest socialist in the world is not only patting trump on the back, he is calling our police officers bad guys. i mean, this really should be something that democrats should grab ahold of. they should tie trump around putin's neck and they should tie putin around trump's neck and put a bow on top of it. >> i agree. the challenge, basil, is that the right has been involved in a laundering campaign for all of the last seven years when it comes to putin. they run polls on fox news, who is a stronger leader, vladimir putin or joe biden? and i haven't followed them recently, but i'm pretty sure putin still wins those polls. they have laundered a war criminal who ordered the

sadistic and brutal massacres of bucha. i mean, they have -- and i guess my question for you is the brutality of the war in ukraine front of mine enough to make this a political liability? >> i agree with what claire has said in terms of the political assessment. and i'll go a bit further. what is really attractive to donald trump and to many of his supporters, followers is power. >> right. >> is the raw exercise of power. >> authoritarian power. >> authoritarian power. it is brutish. it is part of a larger sort of oligarchy. there are few people with money and power and resources to change everything at the drop of a hat. and that is what they respect. they don't respect the power of the individual voter, the individual's enfranchisement. what they suspect is somebody using, having power, getting it and using it by any means necessary.

having said that, i look at the comments that he made about tish james. i've never heard that before. i've known tish my entire year. the attorney general of the state of new york. i call her tish. i've known her my entire career. when he takes these shots at people, it's going to hit closer at home for more and more people around this country that folks that they know that are in public service are coming under attack. and we need to be very -- >> by putin on behalf of trimpx that's exactly right. >> we really need to stop this in its tracks, because you're putting a target on people's backs. people that are elected to office that are doing the will of the people. and that's what's so scary now, because more and more individuals are being impacted by this. we talked about this when alvin bragg, when his office was being attacked, and we wondered whether or not these institutions can maintain their sanctity if they're being under

attack and nobody is engaging them. but these are people with sworn duties to uphold constitution in their states and nationally being threatened in some way, shape or form by a foreign power because they want to maintain a relationship with donald trump. and that is frightening. >> you know, ambassador mcfaul, i want to question you on this question of how is putin different now than he was in '16. i mean, in '16, the obama administration, the intelligence agencies and the department of homeland security, they grappled with how to tell congress and the public about russian interference. putin is now accused of carrying out atrocities, war crimes, literally. and the fact of his interference in 2016 is just that, a fact. robert mueller charged i think 23 russian. we know -- what wasn't prosecutable was criminal conspiracy between the trump campaign and russia. but what was true and what remains true today is a shared

mission and a welcoming of the support putin readily gives. the ah-ha today is that there is not going to be any hiding at this time. he sanctioned 500 people. they include all of trump's truth. you'd have to read trump's truth social so closely to come up with this list. they should get something extra for having to do that at their troll farm. i mean, what is the difference between putin in 2023 and the putin that america had to contend with in 2016? >> well, he is much more cautious in 2016 than he is today, right? he's invaded a country and tried to annex it. those are things that even in 2016 he was not doing. second, i think he is more desperate today than he was before. he's in danger of losing this war. and one of the ways he sees an out is to have mr. trump come back to power. that's his calculus. whether he is right or wrong about that, i don't know. but that's what they say time and time again, this can help

us. and therefore, i think the political response -- i'm not an expert on american politics like the rest of you all. i'm dabbling into things i don't feel comfortable about. but to me, if you want to talk about the way to stop that, we have to help zelenskyy win. >> yeah. >> we have to help the democratically elected president of ukraine show the power that you were just talking about. we have to show that putin is not invincible, that he can lose. and i think if that is happening a year from now, that will be good for freedom around the world and it will be good for ukraine, and i think it will be good for america's democracy as well. >> i mean, claire, how bat bleep crazy it is that ambassador mcfaul's not sure to talk about where to position being pro-democracy in an american political context? that's crazy. we should never normalize the fact that one of the two parties isn't 100% down with defending democracy. and i think that was your political argument, claire. >> yes. and by the way, i think there

are some quotes that putin has that deserve an important place in political advertising. i mean, putin at one point in time said the party manual for the communist party is a manual that embraces all of the marxist ideas of socialism. it's called the moral code of builder. and at one point in time, putin said that is very similar to the bible, to the bible. hello,ou know,e is okay, you're okay with voting for someone who is supported by someone who thinks communism and socialism should be just as important as the tenets of the bible. it is astounding to me that all these republicans are stilling around, and they don't think it's going blow back on them. but that's because we have not gone at it at this angle that

the socialism. remember what ussr stands for. one of the s's is socialist. and that's what he wants ukraine for. he wants to go back to having all these socialist countries together so he can be more powerful. that's why he took crimea. that's why he did all he did in georgia, and this is why he is doing what he is doing in ukraine. >> ambassador mcfaul, a year ago i said to some very, very highly regarded pollsters on this show, this was ahead of the january 6th select committee hearings. democracy is going to be a voting issue. i think it can be. i think it will be. i think it's possible. people don't vote on democracy. they vote on the economy. i said all right. you may be right. you are better at that than i am. we have in this country, because of the supreme court overturning roe v. wade, because of a republican party all too comfortable seizing rights from reporters and journalists and journalism, seizing and putting

their hand on the scale in the business world, once taboo for republicans, seizing the right to vote, outlawing some of the most secure ways of casting ballots like a drop box, all under the banner of a democracy voter. voters have rejected all those things as well as the insurrection on january 6th. what are the stakes of making sure that we have this conversation with the would-be democracy voters in this country when it comes to vladimir putin's visions for anti-democratic sfleech reach? >> it's i think important for people to understand putin is supporting mr. trump, not because he's like some personal friend of trump, because he wants to destroy american democracy. he wants to weaken the united states of america. i've listened to him talk about america for a long time, including up close and personal. he hates the united states of america and all that we stand

for. and he thinks russia will be in a better place and autocrats like him if we are weakened as a country, if we are weakened a as democracy. so yes it's part of the politics of one party to the next, but it's really the party of an autocrat seeking to destroy the most powerful country in the world. >> ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you so much for starting us off. claire sticks around a little bit longer. when we come back, harlan crow breaks his silence about his long-time friendship with supreme court justice clarence thomas, the one that has raised all kinds of ethical questions and contributed to what many are calling a crisis of credibility at the supreme court. the big question now, whether the senate will subpoena crow to testify before them under oath that is next. plus, we will check back in with our good friend and pro-democracy activist massi

ajad as the regime continues crackdown on protesters on the streets of iran. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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today's the deadline for justice clarence thomas' billionaire benefactor to hand over an itemized list of gifts after their financial relationship raised more questions about ethics and credibility at the supreme court. but so far today harlan crow has seemed to prefer to play victim, feeling, quote, embattled in a new interview with the "atlantic," trying to impossibly play down their friendship and

play up what he describes as, quote, ignorance. graeme wood writes this today, quote, in an email, crow told me that, quote, it's not like we haven't talked about work-related issues, but that those conversations were casual and unrelated to jurisprudence. it would be absurd for me to talk to justice thomas about supreme court cases because that is not my world, he told me at his house. i could probably name maybe five or six cases, brown v board of education, madison, he thought about it for a bit and then stopped at two. we talk about life. we're two guys who are the same age and grew up in the same era. we share a love of motown. sheldon whitehouse, a member of the senate judiciary committee. so harlan crow had me going until he got to i can only name two supreme court case. who says that? >> well, the thing that had me going was when he said it's not

my world, despite the fact that the article also says that harlan crow has been near the center of the conservative world for decades, which by the way is the same conservative world that is busily out to capture the court, the same conservative world that hired a fixer, leonard leo to assemble this court, and the same groups that fire into the court amicus briefs all the time, that harlan crow and his chambers read. so this effort to separate the billionaire from the supreme court to me is in violation of all of the evidence. >> and i mean, look, when you're in a hole, which this relationship is by the facts and the document, the real estate transactions alone, you know, in politics you stop digging. to say i don't know this world and appear in pictures with leonard leo, as you said, he is this world. what is you think is going on? >> i think they're kind of trying to talk their way out of it in strange ways.

the behavior of republicans in the senate in particular has been very peculiar. nobody takes it seriously when an individual is paying for spectacular vacations for justice undisclosed, putting up the justice's mom rent-free undisclosed, paying for the private school tuition of the kid that the justice is raising as a son, undisclosed, and offering him free jet travel undisclosed. if this was anybody else, they'd be going berserk. this would be leading fox news every night. but because they have captured the court, they're trying to protect it and defend the indefensible. >> senator, what happens next for the committee? can subpoenas go out for mr. crow and any of the justices? >> well, two committees are looking at this right now. i happen to sit on both of them.

the finance committee has been pursuing the harlan crow tax documents to figure out whether what he did was done consistent with american tax laws. and the judiciary committee has been looking into it as well. as you know from our recent subcommittee hearing. and there are more letters and investigative efforts that are going out. now some people are not going to respond without a subpoena. that's a step that takes place down the road. but i think we're committed to trying to get to the bottom of this. this is a particularly unusual moment in the history of the supreme court, and nothing like this has ever happened with the supreme court before. even justice fordice's disaster was nothing compared to this. >> dahlia lithwick has a fascinating piece out, basically arguing that one of the i guess weaknesses in the system is the lack of a press corps that aggressively covers anybody in the white house, the way your

press corps runs around and has instant access to you and your colleagues at all times in washington and in your district, that one of the problems there isn't a supreme court press corps that covers the justices and their decisions and everything around them the same way the other branches of government are covered. what's your feeling about that? >> i couldn't agree more. i think that it's a little bit like the supreme court bar, the people who practiced before the supreme court. they're the ones who know best what is going on, that they make their livelihood from the good will of the supreme court. and so like old-fashioned years, it's hard to get them to say anything about the court. the supreme court prides itself on access and has not taken a hard look. there has been nothing like the kind of inquiry made that should have been into the dark money spending behind the advertisements that put the justices on the court, where the

federalist society got its list, now that we know the federalist society didn't create its list, what billionaires cooked up that list. i mean, the questions go on and on and on. the supreme court bar tends to let it pass. even when the supreme court did a dark money facilitating decision after 50 -- hold your breath -- 50 dark money amicacruea, it still didn't happen. it's disturbing. >> do you feel like it's starting to change? for someone who has been sounding the alarm for long time, it's too little too late. we have the audacity now. it gets to exactly what you're saying, that no one will hold me accountable. no one is going to look into this. he says this, "my hope is this is the last conversation have i on this topic in public. i'm not the private person i was. i'm sad about that, but there is nothing i can do. i just still kind of hope that

it will all fade from memory and i can go back to being just an old guy." you kidding me? the real estate transactions seem like the tip of the iceberg. again, this is a documents investigation. this is investigative journalism based on unearthing documents and records that fly in the face of the crummy ethics code that only the supreme court has to abide by that clarence thomas didn't abide by. this feels like the tip of the iceberg. >> more like -- this is the harlan ethics scandal leg of the republican and right-wing special interests took over the supreme court creature. this is just one piece of the much larger story that goes back to how the judges were selected, how they were campaigned for, who is behind the amicus groups to tell them what to do, why they seem to rule in favor of those amicus groups virtually every single time.

i can't think of a time they missed. all of that is the story. and the behavior of clarence thomas is just one leg of it. >> we'll stay on it. i know you're leading the way. we're trying to do a better job giving it the attention it deserves around here. sheldon whitehouse, thank you for spending time on it with us. let me bring into our coverage brian fallon, the co-founder and executive executive judicial demand justice. claire is still was. let me read more of this harlan crow interview. it is extraordinary. if he had a press person, i used to be the press person. i won't throw the press person under -- well, yeah, he will. this is terrible press work also. quote, the deal over thomas' mother's house seemed to baffle crow completely. he said he considers thomas' rise the kind of american story you dream about. he asked thomas if he could buy the house at fair market value and develop the area with eventually opening the house to

the public to honor him. quote, i'm a real estate guy crow added. thomas's mother received an estate part of the transaction which is very common in real estate deals involving the elderly. an insignificant expense compared to the cost of the deal as a whole. only rich people describe the price of a house as insignificant and say it's common for the elderly and say i'm a real estate guy. and the bigger problem around all of this is they didn't tell anybody. brian fallon, what do you think of what we're learning from harlan crow himself? >> well, so much of what got said in that "atlantic" piece doesn't pass the laugh test. first and foremost, he continues to just act like they're simply friends. and at one point remarks that it would be strange if a supreme court justice is not allowed to have friends. these guys aren't friends. they met after clarence thomas became a supreme court justice, and the only reason that they met is because harlan crow caught wind of the fact that clarence thomas was giving a speech in texas and he offered him a ride on his private jet.

so if clarence thomas did anything other than being a high profile government official, there is no chance harlan crow would have offered him a free ride on his plane. there is no chance they would have cultivated a relationship over these past couple decades. and then you get into this whole idea that clarence thomas didn't disclose these matters. this is not just, you know, harlan crow says that he is an ethical guy. we shouldn't have to take the word for it. that's what the law is for. the law requires that's these gifts and purchases get disclosed. well don't have to take his word for it he is an honorable, ethical guy. we have to look at the black and white matter that the land deal was supposed to be disclosed under the ethics in government act of 1978. it wasn't. the tuition payment for the boy that clarence thomas has been raising as his son should have been disclosed. it wasn't. so the senate is fully justified in investigating these matters as a black and white violation

of the ethics laws that require disclosure here. so all this stuff, all these interviews by harlan crow don't really pass muster. and it's sort of, if i was sheldon whitehouse or dick durbin, i would be exasperated over the fact that harlan crow feels free to give these interviews to friendly journalists a the "atlantic" while he continuing to thumb his nose at congressional committees that are asking him for basic information. >> it is amazing. and i also, i take the senator's point about the press. we call on you all the time to help us tell these stories. brian fallon, thank you very much. we have big breaking news to tell you about involving e. jean carroll and what donald trump said about her on that cnn town hall stage. we have to sneak in a very short break. it will be a quick one. we'll be right back and tell you about it on the other side. her e e with a quick commercial auto quote online. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. really?

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following the verdict show the depth of his malice toward carroll since it is hard to imagine defamatory conduct that could possibly be more motived by hatred, ill will, or spite. his conduct supports a very substantial punitive damages award in carroll's favor, both to punish trump, to deter him from engaging in further defamation, and to deter others from doing the same as claire mccaskill is back with us. it seems that as with trump, who breaks all these things we refer to as norms, the legal system is also now having to navigate whether damages will mean anything if the very next day the individual found liable carries out the same conduct for which he has been sanctioned. >> yeah. i imagine this was not the easiest of decisions to go ahead and file this suit. i certainly understand it. and i admire e. jean carroll for

what she has done and for her attorneys for pursuing this. and the interesting thing about this, nicolle, if this is really about punitive damages to deter donald trump from his other lack of respect for the court system, his utter disdain for things that are so american and important in our constitution, is it all of his finances are important in this regard. in order to punish someone with punitive damages, the jury has the right, the court has the right to know how much would it take to punish him. this would also be a very painful exercise for donald trump, because it might be the first time that how much he is really worth is litigated. how much is he totally in terms of his bottom line. he wants to tell everybody he is really, really successful and has all this money. others say it's all smoke and mirrors. well, now he's going to have to produce all those financial documents and all of the

financial information so that a jury can determine how much would it take to keep him from saying this stuff again. >> the filing seems so sort of -- and i think we've learned a little bit about e. jean carroll's legal team. their skill and their acumen is going straight at something that the jury decided on. the actual malice. the damages were derived from their ability to show through trial, through evidence, through outcry witnesses, people e. jean carroll confided in at the time as well as the "access hollywood" tape that show that this was behavior donald trump still to this day, to the moment that he sat for that deposition, believes he can, quote, grab them in the you know what because, quote, when you're famous, they let you do it. and when asked if he was famous, he said yeah, for better or for worse, i am. >> yeah. i mean, there were two phrases of the trump presidency that i hope americans remember when they go in the battle box.

i'm speaking to republican primary voters and to general election voters. the first one is good people on both sides. when he was referring to people marching with tiki torches and spewing nazi sayings about how the white race is supreme. and then the other is fortunately or unfortunately. because his words in the deposition for that case was fortunately or unfortunately stars can do this. this is what stars can do. so he actually thinks it's fortunate in some instances that stars can do this. and keep in mind on this punitive damages thing also, nicole, e. jean carroll didn't ask for any money. she didn't say give me -- i would like you to consider giving me x amount of dollars. she wanted the jury to decide what was appropriate, because for her it wasn't about the money. but in this instance, now trump has demonstrated that he must be deterred with punishment. and the way you punish someone in a civil case is not with jail, it's with money.

so now they will probably ask for an amount that would be in line with what he says he has or what he actually has that would actually keep him from doing this again. that will be very interesting. >> let me, claire, bring into our conversation barbara mcquade, law professor at the university of michigan. barbara mcquade, let me read this from the reporting on the lawsuit. ms. carroll's lawyer robert ca caplan said in a brief interview on monday trump's statements on cnn quote literally the day after the verdict made it all the more important for ms. carroll to pursue the pending defamation lawsuit. quote, it makes a mockery of the jury verdict and our justice system if he can keep on repeating the same defamatory statements over and over again, ms. caplan said. we've all had a crash course in defamation law thanks to e. jean carroll and roberta caplan as well as dominion and fox news,

but it does feel that this ability, opportunity to showcase the actual malice, the known falsity, and the damage is something that is a real grave legal threat to someone like donald trump. >> yeah, i have two reactions to this story, nicolle. on the one hand, personally i would be inclined if i were e. jean carroll to just declare victory and move on. she succeeded. she got $5 million. she won. she had her day in court. on the other hand, as you say, right after this, donald trump comes out and repeats the allegations. and this time he does it now that there has even been a jury finding that he defamed her. so frankly, if ever there has been an open-and-shut case of defamation with actual malice, it's this one. so i admire her courage and her perseverance to go through with it. but if the point of all of this is deterrence, not just donald trump, but public deterrence, that you have to learn your lesson, that you have to stop this, then i say good for e.

jean carroll, and i am grateful that she has the fortitude to go forward with this to make this point. >> i mean, and listen, there is nothing else. i think what the filing makes clear is that there isn't any other mechanism to stop him. the day after the jury found unanimously in her favor, he takes to televised stage and defames her anew. if you don't have any checks anywhere else, not in our politics, not yet in our criminal justice system, what other lever is there to stop him from defaming e. jean carroll? >> none. and i think he -- if he continues to repeat these things, perhaps she will continue with her lawsuits. it reminds me of sometimes when you're disciplining a child, and you say if you don't stop doing x, you're going to double your punishment. and they do it again. you're going to double it again. and they do it again. at some point, they get worn

down and realize that i'm not going away, and that is about deterrence. and it's a battle of wills, but we want you to ultimately comply with the law here. so i think it really is her only mechanism. and as i said, i think the should co. have the temptation to declare victory and move on, but not only is she doing this for herself, she is doing it for all others out there who see powerful men who will say for me, this is like a parking ticket. i'm going the pay it and continue to do what i want to do. and that's what that felt like during that cnn town hall meeting is i don't care that i have to pay $5 million. i still get to say what i want to say. and i think this is e. jean carroll's effort to say um, no, you can't. in america, there is a price to be paid when people blatantly and maliciously defame others. >> and that is his position in his deposition. when you're a star, you can do it. he said for a million years, that's how it's been done. i want to ask you how this works. is this a new case? is this the same? what happens? what does this filing mean?

who receives it? and what happens next? >> this is an amendment to the first defamation case that e. jean carroll had filed. you may recall she filed a case on the original things trump said while he was president, waiting to get on the helicopter, and repeated it a few other times. what actually interceded along the way was her separate lawsuit that she filed last fall under the new york law. in this one, she has added this additional claim, or this new allegation based on the statements made on cnn. it's not really a new lawsuit. she already had this one pending. she just added this newer claim to be part of that larger lawsuit. >> and does it bolster that lawsuit, sore it just an additional claim? >> well, in some ways it does, because as long as the jury finds liability on any one of those claims, then there can be a judgment. so in some ways, this was a real

favor that donald trump did to e. jean carroll. because there were some legal defense was. i don't know that they would have prevailed. but some legal defenses about the fact that he had made these statements while he was president, and perhaps he's got some defenses there that you have to act as president to defend yourself. for this one, he is not the president. and so he doesn't have any of the same kind of immunity arguments he might have had there. in some ways, by repeating these statements, he did e. jean carroll a real favor. but i'm sure she'd say don't do me any more favors, donald trump. just pay up. >> claire you made an interesting point, that she doesn't need the money. this is about deterrence. it's also about stopping the copycat defamation. she testified to what it was like to wake up every morning of her own trial and read the hateful things people were saying about her. if any of that is to change, there has to be more than nothing in terms of consequences, right? >> yeah. i wish i could be more optimistic that e. jean carroll's lawsuits would stop

donald trump's hateful speech. i mean, he is nothing if he is not full of hateful speech about anyone who doesn't worship him. and so i don't know that this lawsuit will stop the rest of the ugliness, calling a police officer a thug, calling elected officials horrible names, just because they don't think he is a good guy. but i do think that this may finally get him to stop talking about her. >> barbara mcquade and claire mccaskill, thank you both for jumping on this breaking news story with us. we are grateful. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ight back. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh.

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right now at the white house, president joe biden is meeting with house speaker kevin mccarthy as they look future a dole on the debt ceiling and a way to avoid default. in the last hour, treasury secretary janet yellen told congress that if no deal is reached in the coming days, and the debt ceiling is therefore not raised, the government is on track to default by early june. potentially as early as june 1st. we'll keep an eye on that meeting and put out anything we learn. another break for us. we will be right back. it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with katie phang in for ari starts right now. hi, katie. >> hi, nicolle. welcome to "the beat." i'm katie phang in for ari melber. we're learning that trump's