weeks. the measure also restricts gender affirming medical care for people younger than 19. if you are younger than 19, you are still considered a minor. and it was called the most significant win for the social conservative agenda in over a generation. the ban goes into effect immediately. and gender affirming care goes in to effect for october 1. and now "deadline: white house" starts right now. and here we go. signs today that special counsel jack smith's classified documents probe is entering its final chapter with a truly unprecedented moment looming

ahead. possible indictment of a former president trump. "wall street journal" is today reporting this, that special counsel jack smith has all but finished obtaining his evidence into whether donald trump mishandled evidence at the mar-a-lago. and some of the trump close associates are bracing for his indictment. they say that clashes within the trump legal team have led to the departure of a delawyer. and the "wall street journal" goes on to report that jack smith appears to be tying up loose ends saying in recent weeks prosecutors working for smith have completed interviews with nearly every employee at trump's florida home from top aides to maintenance staff.

they have pressed witnesses on questions that appear to hone in on specific elements that they need to show to include a crime. and questions aimed at undermining potential defenses that trump could raise reports are that the special counsel as assembled evidence and much of that appears to obliterate many ofhe arguments that trump has many making publicly. and the "wall street journal" confirms reporting from krn last cnn last week that the national archives turned over records of

communications about how that he could declassify documents. and reports are that trump was told that he couldn't keep any classified documents. so let's begin there here today. frank, a long time former fbi official said whatever is there is something that the government wants back. what have we learned about that moment when this once long process was revealed by the government in the form of the

search. and the fact that jack smith's final end game at least what is public facing has really focused on what happens between trump receiving a subpoena and that subpoena being ignored. >> crucial time period when clearly a defendant is on my. you can't have those. the u.s. government demands them back. everything after that goes toward the defendant's mindset and his intentions. i'd argue that we've already learned that even prior to that subpoena there were negotiations where it was quite clear that he couldn't have those, he was told repeatedly even as he was leaving the white house, pat cipollone, i said that we can't keep this stuff. of course. but that crucial period after that sobering subpoena is

slapped on you is that i have a choice. i'll either comply with the law or i'm not. and everything after that is thumbing the nose at the law. and he actually stated i took those document, i had every right to. and if i did show them to somebody, i had every right to. this is defiance that goes towards criminal intention. it is there and by the way, if the reports are accurate, it is all but done. and these cases don't age gracefully. if you have cooperators lined up, they get intimidated. the time to do it is sooner rather than later. >> and in ten months a lot of

things have been said, but what has never been uttered by trump is a statement that constitutes criminality and that is the taking of classified documents and refusal to return them. let me show you what has been said. >> does you leave the white house with anything in particular, any documents that you took with you? >> nothing of great urgency. if you are the president, you can declassify just saying that it is declassified. even by thinking about it. >> why did you take those documents with you? >> i had every right to under the presidential records act. i was there and i took what i took. it gets declassified. >> these are talking points but not legal defenses. and it seems that the end game that jack smith has been engaged

in, and we only know what we know, has been the work that happens after attorney/client privilege is pierced, after a judge has conceded or agreed that jack smith has made the case that crimes have been committed and that is why he gets to talk to trump's criminal defense lawyers. where do you understand things to be? >> you're right. trump was speaking to his lawyers every day and they were going back and forth about what they should do in the 3407in th after the raid on mar-a-lago. and so what the prosecutors will try to prove, they have or have not feel that they have or they don't that donald trump knew what he was supposed to do and for some reason defied good

legal advice that he was given by people like his criminal defense lawyers. who have said that they have given jack smith's team notes that say that they told donald trump that he was or was not allowed to have class fired information, that the to give things back. and what will a jury think about this.formation, that the to giv things back. and what will a jury think about this. and would is public facing, only

about six months ago this, is about at test tags signed by one of trump's lawyers. based on the information, i'm authorized to certify on behalf of the office of donald trump the follow. a diligent certainly was conducted. and it was conducted after receipt of the subpoena in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive. and any and all responsive documents accompany the certification. and no reproduction was retained as to any responsive document. and that was in june. we know after that, a whole lot of classified material was found at mar-a-lago. and the investigation jack smith understand taken turned to the point of obstruction. where do you understand things

should be. >> and that statement on her part was false, false, false and false. and most important for her is the addition that she made off the top. we have 50 pages of written notes that i think leave no dote at all about what he was told. and to frank's point, you don't need a lot of extra persuasion when the subpoena shows up. i think that we've been for many weeks in a kind of final make sure that we're cross going ts and dotting is including the latest subpoena from the "new york times" about foreign deal ings. they do source it to people

familiar with the matter. and so it does seem with having everything he could including housekeepers and the like, earning that he is done and that is where i think that we are. very close based on the "wall street journal" report thinking. >> and if garland did decline, it would be a departure from the way that he dealt with durham. we do have a special counsel standard established, don't we? >> yes, he would have to report it to congress.

and he has the congress -- i shouldn't say congress. but the comfort of a thorough investigation. and he has already made clear that the law applies to everyone. so what would be the basis for turning it done. down. i think that he will accept the recommendation. >> and let's bring in the time line again. we know what we know after the search of mar-a-lago. and we also know more about the bizarre special master process that plays out through much of the fall. but we've been able to assemble a pretty detailed time line. in january, 84 classified documents. and june 3, they get 38 moore classified documents back from trump's attorneys.re

classified documents back from trump's attorneys. still know they don't have everything. and so this is obstruction. including something that they have seen on surveillance footage. and then they find 103 more classified documents. let me ask you, this has been mentioned already. "times" is reporting that prosecutors sought records on trump foreign business deals. and they say that they are overseeing the investigation into trump's handling of documents and the subpoena drafted by jack smith sought oig details on the real estate licensing and development dealings in seven countries.tai

licensing and development dealings in seven countries. and the subpoena sought the records for deals reached since 2017. i've read every book by former trump officials so that our view ers don't have to. and bill barr worries that u.s. foreign policy as it pertains to turkey has been rupted in some way by trump's business interests. do we assume that people maybe haven't heard about jack smith are part of the fabric of the probe in trump classified documents? >> let's go to the depth of evidence developed. we know trump doesn't use email, but he is prolific user of the

phone, right? and so guaranteed there have been subpoenas for phone carriers for his phone records throughout this period and watching his response to a visit from the head of the national security secretary, doj, then here come fbi agents and they call it tickling the wireis cal? you are not getting into privilege, but who he is speaking with. so you can develop sources. so when there is great confidence that they have the goods on him, it is because that they are targeting people who know for a fact what is going on. fast forward and tie that into this subpoena for whether or not the trump organization was doing any business with seven nations. there is an interesting piece in the "post" that puts a post on

it. and it is last month. if that is true, that is intriguing because it may imply that this is a pro forma routine thing. the defense will say that you have no evidence that committed he is espionage. but we better look. so maybe there is nothing coming in from where he think that, no, we better look at saudi or china or turkey. it would go toward motive. and what if the documents actually involve those very countries that are on the list everyone more concerning. and now you are looking at maybe more real life espionage. we don't know. >> and charlie, there is always

cover that trump received. because he seemed too hapless to carry out something that sounded like fodder for "mission impossible" or james bond. but just listening to him in the nondenials, he doesn't ever publicly deny sharing things. he doesn't say i didn't show any classified documents to anybody he says i could have fought them and he says nothing i could think of. there is not even a denial in the public report. >> right. so we know that as frank points out, we don't know the why. but in term of the political fallout, i think that the case has been baked into the cake in terms of political reaction unless we get some dazzling details about the motivation of

whether or not it is involving the business deals. because that is not on most voters' radar screen. they think it is documents, they don't know why. there is a lot of dust thrown up. biden had documents, mike pence had documents. i don't think that lot of the general public have been focusing on it. so the question is if jack smith comes out with an indictment and it includes new information including the possible motivation including these business deals in the mideast with donald trump, that potentially changes the status we could. i mean, i know that conventional wisdom is that nothing ever matters, that nothing ever changes anything, but it also takes place and the timing is incredibly relevant. it is the end of may. but the timing is relevant because republicans have other routes to take other than simply

signing on to donald trump and defending everything that he does. so far the republican party has been willing to defend him. they will probably do so again. but i think that we're about to enter into an incredibly interesting period with all of these shoes dropping and i keep thinking about the cumulative weight of all of this. but to frank's point, the question of motive is one that we don't know and is not really factored into the fallout from the investigation. >> and "new york times" has previously reported in a pretty detailed piece, that he was interested in the saudi golf tournament process and trump's ties to it. talk about that as an active live of investigation. >> so for donald trump, he is facing a lot of litigation and a lot of debt.

and this deal with liv golf, they will be playing those games at his properties. and this could be a pretty amount of money and also a franchise that could be growing. and furthermore if he does have plans for political officer again, we know he wants to be president, saudi arabia is a long time ally of his, and so there are a lot of reasons why he would want to be working closely with the saudis and have motive to help them. but we couldn't know for sure what it is that smith saw or found. we've seen from the subpoenas that he has issued and some interviews that he is going over ground that investigators before he became special counsel have also taken a look at. see is crossing ts and dotting is before he has to issue any final draft or recommendation. >> yeah, interesting that you mention previous prosecutors.

the one best known to our program is of course andrew weissmann who confesses in his book that the regret is not probing more deeply into trump's finances which he said over and over again including in interviews with the "times." and also possible that he hears of the regret from others who investigated donald trump and questions of entangled interests. and i want to put up all of the attorneys just before the grand jury. and stick around to the other side of the break. i want to go through what piece of the potential obstruction each reveals. on each reveals and words matter.

donald trump's long history of saying whatever thing he feels compelled to see you has come back to possibly bite him in the you know where again. today in two consequential and significant legal cases. and how prosecutors late this afternoon made the case of more criminal exposure for donald trump should he publicly speak out in the new york hush money payment case. a live update. and the other case involving words of donald trump, e. jean carroll wants to see him back in front of the jury. all this and more after a quick break. ick break.

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and when you say yes to us, we keep you here as long as we can. harry, i want to talk about the lawyers. so extraordinary when your colleagues first reported on don mcgahn and when you open up the mueller report at the end of the investigation, vol unl two is essentially narrated by don mcgahn's testimony and the notes that he took. so there are mar-a-lago lawyers and corcoran with 50 pages of notes. kash patel is a lawyer and he has other roles but now a

cooperating witness. and now you have the white house lawyers who would be aware of what trump was told about the process for taking any records from the white house. and they testified many moons ago. so talk about what jack smith knows from talking to everyone who has represented trump and any context where he would have any to do, say or think about classified material. >> and we use the word unprecedented a lot but there is just no case i've ever heard of that has built so much on the backs of a defendant's lawyers. and in broad i think that there are two reasons for it. one is that he uses them to plot crimes and their confidential communications can be breached. and second, he throws them to

the curb, doesn't pay them and the like. so no great desire. ty cobb said that he thinks he is going to jail. so a stunning turn of events about and the evidence that we're talking about, we mentioned it yesterday with the 50 pages of notes, the most coy confidential content that you never think will come out and it is so informative and i think that it will go down among other things as him amazing of skurnts or former lawyers. >> lawyers only write things down to protect theirclients.

or with trump, usually to protect themselves. and have you ever done an investigation where half a dozen lawyers were among the witnesses? and where criminality is already established? it is almost like dominion established known falsities. and it appears that jack smith has already shown evidence of trump's criminality. >> short answer have i ever seen this many attorneys involved, absolutely not.

for fbi generated information, i could make the decision to close classify or for that matter to classify. and i know the process. i know what it looks like. i know my signature is on documents that i classified. and you can know who did it and when. but what i'm intrigued by with kash patel and you mentioned lawyers protecting themselves, he is protecting himself because i think that he knows that this is nonsense that he has been spouting about i saw the president declassify all this stuff, i think that he could think about it. nonsense. but he's protecting himself and i think that he will end up of it against trump and not any evidence that trump was ever to would that he could think about things. in fact i'd be almost certain that there is evidence that he properly declassified, in fact this may be what national archives is talking about with 15 documents that show that he

knew how far too to do this. but maybe he even did it after the faskt. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.dfas. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.xfas. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.r. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.f. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.a. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.c. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir.t. he gave russian fact. he gave russian classified and someone said hey, we have some paperwork to fill out, sir. >> yeah, that incident frank is talking about was kislyak was back in the oval. he was not there in the obama presidency. but trump threw out the red carpet. so the white house line was that he -- we made sure that he didn't do it. which really argues towards what

frank is saying. we made it legal after the fact. but his pattern and practice of sharing classified information is so well established, again, john bolton writes about it in his book. it is documented from even the russians. kislyak's office, the kremlin, released the photos. we know that he talked loosely about military movements at mar-a-lago over chocolate cake with other world leaders. we know that there was a pattern and practice of being incredibly dismissive of rules that he wented went on. so the notion that he would have done something right is the difference in the pattern and practice. frts j and this has been seen in

real time. people talk about russia hoenks, hoax, rusia hoax. but there is no secret here. donald trump uses what is he needs on social media and now is he in a different world where he is dealing with local prosecutors and whole different world, a special prosecutor. and what is also happening, a lot of the lawyers who hung around him enjoying the proximity to power are realizing that perhaps the lousiest job in the western world is to be a lawyer for donald trump. because as harry pointed out, it

is one thing to be a fire hose of disinformation and lies freely as donald trump as done, but now we're talking about donald trump and a grand jury, we're talking about an environment in which lies have real consequences and stakes are much higher. and perhaps it will continue to go up the ladder there. >> and katie, you brought some of the earliest reporting about the emptying outof former doj officials. from the body of reporting and from the candor with which people talked about just how bad it was, secrets they kept but

things that they explained after the fact, what do you think sort of the scope of jack smith's ability to understand this conduct could be potentially? >> one of the things that jack smith probably found is that from throughout his presidency and after the presidency, donald trump pitted his lawyers against one another. and oftentimes we'd get the stories during his president trump of doing something that would be extremely rule violating. and his defenders would say that yes, but we gave him the other kargt character and he didn't do it. and so that pattern persisted.

and in this case things are a little different. one of his lawyers recently leave, and he told cnn that he left other a dispute with of course another lawyer where he felt two things are happening. that he could not give donald trump real information, true information about what was legal and what was illegal. what was illegal. so that nobody could say that what he was doing was wrong. and he did feel that he wasn't being listened to when he did tell donald trump what he was doing was -- or when he did tell other lawyers what donald trump was doing was not wrong. and so again, this defense he

listened to our counsel and even though he considered several options, he did the same thing. so it will be harder to make the case in the instance because there are lawyers who were able to get him the correct information and he didn't listen to them. >> and that is such an interesting point. and you couldn't have any -- because the pattern had the lawyers coming out of reassuring the country in hindsight probably western allies. in the end nobody shot people coming over the wall because it was illegal. but in this instance he took the stuff and he refused to give it back. and also the facts are not in dispute. nobody better to take to about it than all of you. thank so much for sticking with us. but coming up, a judge told the ex-president essentially we don't trust yo detailsing on

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times over apextra ordinary appearing. and the judge read him the terms of a protective order. it bars him from exposing evidence. and the order holds that anyone with access to the evidence being turned over to terrorism's team by state prosecutors sha noll copy or disclose the material to third parties. and the hearing each as new front of potential legal

exposure for donald trump as district attorney alvin bragg has made it clear that his office will prosecute him if he violates the order. and joining our conversation is lisa rubin. and also suzanne craig following the case and helps us make sense of it. and charlie is still with us. lisa, take us through the dramatic hearing. >> i've never been to a hearing that is so short where the defendant says so little and so yet so much happens. the judge does not read the protective order line for line, but wanted for make sure that trump had reviewed it and he understood that if he violate it is, he risks a wide range of sanctions including criminal contempt. and they also made clear to donald trump that the trial date

of march 25th is a firm one and immovable and the judge told trump that he expects all parties and their counsel to make themselves available and nothing can interfere with that trial and joe tack pea know in a tack pea know was to be found. the official line is that 3578 tee know was visiting family overseas. but the judge said that they had a boat of materials and that that is all that he would they

would say. >> and so special counsel at doj ending his investigation and his mishandling of classified documents. but you could argue that the prosecutor is the bigger threat. your reaction >> i off look back at history to gauge what will happen next. and the missing ingredient and what is so difficult with this is that the man of the moment could have been john barren. and i'm thinking about that when lisa was talking. he would pretend to be john barren and say disparaging things or lie about his net worth and he doesn't have that now. so he is struggling with how to fight back. and so i think that e. jean

kale our is a perfect example. he was on national tv againyou know, repeating the very allegations that are getting him into trouble and will further his trouble. and i think that it is very hard for him not to just blow right by the guide lines that are set which i think the judge is trying to keep name him in their relines. >> and so now the exposure to the feloies and also the process.

>> and we're seeing donald trump's lack of impulse control and there are real consequences here. that was my reaction as i was watching this, that we're cruising toward charges of contempt and then the question is what happens then. and in fact donald trump might actually relish escalating his tactics against the court. but again, rules are very, very different in a court of law when you are facing felony charges. but i think that michael cohen is correct there that the odds of donald trump actually respecting this particular protective order are vanishingly small. and once again the lawyers are going to have to work over time, triple time to convince him don't do it, don't say anything. and when has that been effective? and to suzanne's point, exhibit

a, he loses this case against e. jean carroll and the very next day he defames her again. this is something that has never been in this particular place and is -- in a legal position and incapable of controlling himself. >> so interesting to see him as a post presidential defendant. and he owes bill barr and jeff

rosenstein, but what you see is a very normal process. the x factor is trump who acts outside the norms. and i guess the parallel for alvin bragg is to spend as much time as alvin bragg did and taking on the water from not bringing the case that others thought was ready, he crossed his ts. and these are not republicans in the trial area that will say never mind. is he in a process that he has never been in before.

>> you're start to being see donald trump just like an ordinary man. the necessary difference ity of shielding position with the flag. and the judge felt it necessary to go throughout litany of questions pnd and knowing that this is a person problemable probable cape of complying with the order. he wants to make sure he understands the order fully,it,o outstanding questions and that he understands what faces him on the other side if he indeed violates it. and todd blanch was careful to say my client believes this is an infringement of his first amendment rights and i have assured him your honor that was not your intent. and the judge replied this is

not a gag order, mr. trump is free to campaign, defend himself. what he's not free to do is violate the terms of this order. everybody trying to be on clear behavior, the lawyer and the judge. this is what we have told you, because everyone is trying to protect themselves and the process against the possibility and the real probability that donald trump is not going to go along with it. >> there's an undeniable parallel to what's going on in jack smith's classified documents case where we've been talking about the extraordinary fact that half a dozen lawyers are now witnesses against trump being used before that grand jury testifying to trump being made aware and knowledgeable of the declassification process. to your extraordinary body of reporting, you know, the $64 million question i guess a lot of people have is was he aware of the irs obligations. he leaned on the fact that accountants told me this. the supreme court pierced some

of these shields. do you see a reckoning that the defenses he relied on as a business man is coming? >> it feels in every case he leans back on the idea that i relied on the advice of council, i had great accountants. it does feel that is coming to fruition and you saw it start to crumble in the trump organization trial where he wasn't charged personally but that didn't fly. they had talked to accountants the executives of that company knew and the guilty verdict came back. you're going to see going forward the civil case in new york, but you feel on multiple fronts now that idea is just falling away. >> it's an extraordinary moment. charlie, i'll give you the last word. >> well, i wanted to emphasize a point you made, nicole. it's very different to be under an investigation like this when you're an ex-president that's when you're the president of the united states.

for four years he could count on the department of justice to run interference for him and use his office to obstruct justice as i think the mueller report documented. he doesn't have any of those levers of power to pull now. >> i'll keep watching. thank you so much for joining us. thank you for spending time with us today. a quick break for us but up next, new details on a terrifying incident that happened near the white house last night. a 19-year-old is in custody. we'll have details next. we'll have details next. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. really? get a quote at progressivecommercial.com.

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varshith,. law enforcement officials are revealing brand new details about a frightening incident that took place outside the white house last night. a 19-year-old missouri man is accused of intentionally driving a u-haul truck into the barriers near lafayette park, just across the street from the white house, wielding a nazi flag and making incriminating statements that led investigators believe that he may have been ready to attack president joe biden. the suspect has been charng charged with five accounts including threatening to kill, kidnap inflict harm on a president, vice president or family member. coming up for us, the ex-president repeating his defamatory words that could put him back in a different courtroom. why e. jean carroll is not backing down. many up more ahead after a short break. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe.

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when you said in that video that ms. leads would not be your first choice, you were referring to her physical looks, correct? >> just the overall. i look at her, i see her, i hear what she says. whatever. you wouldn't be a choice of mine either, to be honest with you, i hope you're not insulted. i would not, under any circumstances, have any interest in you. i'm honest when i say it. >> boo-hoo said every woman in america. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. one thing is clear when it comes

to the ex-president he can't keep his mouth shut even when it endangers him. which is why 24 hours after he was final liable for defaming and sexually abusing e. jean carroll earlier this month unanimously. he repeated the defamatory statements apparently having to pay $5 million in damages was not enough to deter him. at the cnn town hall on his social media platform he repeated his previous comments, that he never met e. jean carroll, that she's mentally unstable and she's lying about him sexually assaulting her in the 1990s. comments, a jury of donald trump's peers, found to be defamatory in their unanimous verdict two weeks ago. e. jean carroll is taking new action against him, asking a judge to update her pending lawsuit against the ex-president. as "the washington post" is reporting, quote, the lawsuit was filed over comments he made about carroll in 2019 when he

was president and she accused him of a decades old sexual assault. the lawsuit has been delayed by appellate litigation having to do with whether trump was shielded from liability enbecause he was president at the time he pa made those comments. now the suit is updated with his latest comments, writing this, trump lashed out against carroll and doubled down on his statements. with this update she is seeking at least $10 million in compensatory damages and punitive damages in an amount to be determined at trial. in response, trump's lawyer said this, quote, ms. carroll's 11th hour attempt to amendment her complaint exposes the new motivation behind her numerous lawsuits. seems like he still hasn't learned his lesson. this morning on truth social, trump went after and brutally attacked e. jean carroll again.

we won't read that to you. donald trump repeating claims a jury found him liable for defamation. anderson jones, law professor joins us, and katy phang is back, and donna edwards is here for the hour. let me show you what roberta kaplan, e. jean carroll's lawyer said about him as a defendant last week. >> he's actually a very good defamation defendant. if you're planning to sue for defamation. because he lies all the time. he lies as a matter of habit, he lies about big things, small things. and in this case, we were able to show those lies not only about it being fake news and a hoax and a made up story, even when i show him that famous photo where he mistook e. jean

for mar la maples when he realed he made the mistake he said the photo was blurry. the photo was not blurry. it was classic donald trump. i think the jury heard that and saw that and that's why we got a verdict in 2 1/2 hours. >> saying he's not my type, which is what he said about e. jean carroll, he can't tell e. jean carroll to his eye, she's indistinguishable from his own wife. >> yes, and one of the things that i think is most interesting about this latest development is that it taps into those same themes about the perpetual nature of the falsehoods here. the pattern and practice of this particular defendant to keep telling the lies. and to tell additional lies that are layered onto those lies. in the case that was just concluded a couple of weeks ago,

the damages that e. jean carroll received were compensatory damages, damages designed to make her whole. so her lawyers proved to a jury the kind of harm done to her reputation, jobs he lost, harm she experienced socially and emotionally. and that $5 million verdict, 3 million or so was for the defamation suit was linked to that. it was evidence of that harm done to her. in this new suit, they are moving to a different kind of damages or adding on, seeking to add on different damages. punitive damages. damages not to remedy the specific harm done to the plaintiff but to punish the defendant and deter this defendant and other defendants who are similarly situated who think they can flout the law and continue to repeat a lie. it's different not just in scale

but also in kind. it's a different form of damages that they've now turned to. and they're using that evidence of the repeated lies told at the cnn town hall and on truth social to warrant those kinds of damages. to suggest they moved into a space where this judge needs to be able to think about those kinds of damages in order to stop the ongoing falsehoods. >> ronnell, let me show our viewers the exact same -- the symmetry of the statements. the one for which he was found liable and the one he repeated at town hall. this was what was introduced, i don't know this woman, i don't know who she is, it's a hoax and a lie. e. jean carroll is not telling the truth. injury finds him liable for sexual abuse and defamation. then may 10th, the day after

that verdict he says this, this woman, i don't know her, i never met her. i have no idea who she is. this is a fake story, a made up story. from the other way, if the judgment doesn't deter, what is the point of the judgment, right? if a person is found liable and he goes out the next day and commits the same defamatory act, what is the court supposed to do with that? >> this is the argument that carroll's lawyers have made in the most recent communications with the judge. they argued among the things that they said to the judge was trump was, in essence, making a mockery of the jury system. this was a case that -- the case that was adjudicated all the way to a verdict was a case that took two weeks, it involved numerous witnesses. two weeks worth of evidence. it involved a standard that is the most plaintiff difficult,

the most defendant friendly standard in the world, proving actual malice and knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth. and a jury unanimously concluded that there was knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth here and that he was liable. and so, it just really doesn't happen with that much frequency that a defendant turns around and doubles down on an adjudicated lie 24 hours later. and part of what carroll's lawyers are arguing in this subsequent case is that additional damages are necessary in order to deter that. in order to stave off that -- the repeats of those kinds of lies. one of the things i think is interesting about the parallelism that you've shown here is that there's a rule here called issue preclusion or collateral estoppel. it's essentially that things

already litigated between these two litigants, freely and fairly litigated to a conclusion in a trial aren't up for grabs again in subsequent trials between the two of them. so the defamatory nature of the statements and the knowing falsity of the statements and the reputational harm of these statements have been adjudicated, carroll essentially has those in the bag and the fact that donald trump continues to defame, in ways that are so parallel, he has sort of a -- a limited vocabulary of attack he continues to refer to and tap into, and because he parallels the defamatory statements so closely because all the statements over the years and those that continue now map on so closely to the language that has already been adjudicated to be defamatory and to give rise to liability, carroll's lawyers are arguing here, we're done

litigating those pieces we can just bring that part forward and all that's left to determine here is whether he was acting in his individual responsibilities and how much he owes. >> you had me at he has a limited vocabulary. katie, what roberta kaplan does for him is make a mockery of his pension for telling lies. i want to play the part of his own deposition where he can't distinguish e. jean carroll from his wife at the time. >> i don't know who the woman -- let's see. i don't know who -- it's marla. >> are you saying marla is in this photo? >> that's marla. that's my wife. >> which woman are you pointing to? >> here. >> the person you just pointed to is e. jean carroll. >> who is that? >> and the woman on the right is

your then wife -- >> this was the picture. i assume that's john johnson. is that -- because it's very blurry. >> some things lose something when you see them over and over again, for me it's stiking a finger in the socket. donald trump couldn't tell e. jean carroll from his wife marla maples. the notion that he is willingly walking into the lion's den of increased legal exposure on the question of whether or not he defamed e. jean carroll with malice where these depositions could be taken again, played again, is crazy even for donald trump. >> yeah. i do want to start nicole by saying it's wildly inappropriate for donald trump's lawyer, during the course of his deposition, to basically not only correct his testimony but try to help her client. so putting that out there, number one, it's just completely inappropriate and shouldn't have

happened. but number two, what's really important about what has happened with the motion for leave to file an amended complaint it reinvigorated the idea that donald trump not only has liability moving forward but also liability for things that have happened in the past. this is not a subsequent lawsuit that is being pursued by e. jean carroll. let's be perfectly clear. carroll won, as you explained at the beginning of the segment, from a lawsuit filed in november of 2019 that has had a tortured experience through the appellate court system because donald trump happened to be president of the united states back in june of 2019 when he made the defamatory statements against e. jean carroll. a second circuit court of appeals has allowed the current judge, judge kaplan to make the decision whether or not it's appropriate for the department of justice to substitute itself in for donald trump. in the event judge kaplan

maintains his original position on this, which is no the doj should not substitute for donald trump then donald trump has to face the consequences for the defamation he did in 2019 but it'll be compounded by the fact that he continues to defame e. jean carroll. in the event judge kaplan says i agree under a law called westfall, the department of justice is allowed to substitute itself in for a federal employee, that being donald trump at the time president of the united states, because this defamation was done in the, quote, course of his official duties, then the case is done. all of that being said, though, e. jean carroll is not precluded from continuing to sue donald trump for further defamation. so you want to talk about digging a hole. donald trump has dug a hole through to the core of the earth and keeps on going. the second he opens his mouth it's to his legal peril.

he's never going to learn. one he's tagged with a verdict that's so huge it makes him shut up or two somebody enjoins him from speaking. that means someone tells him he can't speak and you and i know with the first amendment that won't happen. but the judicial system is going to get to the point where the dollar signs are so big he shuts up. >> i won't hold my breath but we'll see. i want to turn to the political arena there is a hardened calcified analysis because the "access hollywood" tape didn't derail him in 2016 his continued and ongoing belief that grabbing women in the you know what, is okay. because for one million years stars can do it. let me show you his position today, today, about the act of

grabbing women between their legs. >> is it true stars can grab women by the [bleep]. >> if you look over the last million years, that's been largely true, unfortunately or fortunately. >> his position now, again he hasn't run for president with that on the record in the videotape in a post me too era. in 2016 the movement hadn't happened, in '20 he hasn'tan given the deposition. he's going to run again as a candidate. it might not matter again to republicans. but he wants to run for president as someone who today believes for one million years if you're a star and he says he's a star, for better or for worse you can grab women between the legs. you don't know that has no impact. >> i think that's right. although it does seem to me that one of the things we know about donald trump is that in all of

these cases that are outstanding, it's donald trump's own words that really get him every time. every time he opens his mouth and so i think that for looking forward in the 2024 election cycle, that -- the notion that these words matter is going to be tested. this is a different environment than he experienced before. and you know what, it may not matter at all to the maga republicans. but that's not how an election is going to be won or lost. an election is going to be won or lost in this cycle with independents, with democrats coming together. and so we'll see whether it matters or not. but the reality is, donald trump will never shut his mouth up. i wish i was his lawyers in some ways if i could get paid, because he would never take my advice and i just have to keep giving it to him and he'd never

take it because in these instances, clearly he's not taking the advice of any lawyers and he just can't shut his mouth. >> i want to read some analysis about the intersectionality of the two cases that are sort of front and center in new york today. lisa tweeted this. there's a not so coincidental overlap with trump's criminal case in manhattan. today the judge is expected to look trump in the eye and ensure there's no confusion about trump's obligations under the protective order in that case. what does that have to do with e. jean carroll? no judge lives in a vacuum. judge is taunting a private litigant against him on social media and making reference to discovery and evidentiary disputes in her recent trial under scores the need for a protective order. neither carroll or her lawyer scare easily but the abuse trump poses to her and the manhattan

da team, its witnesses and investigators cannot be understated. again we usually separate these conversations from politics for this reason but there are deadly serious consequences to his words. there are crazy people who follow everybody on twitter but his have, in the past, the pattern and the recent history has his supporters being so animated and riled up by the things he posted on social media and said at rallies they went to the capitol and sought to overtake it and, quote, hang mike pence. i wonder if you can speak to the point the judges and lawyers are trying to make to sort of protect the rule of law? >> yes, i think the question of the concern for respect for the rule of law is a major undercurrent of the most recent filing. the filings we saw, the

requested amendments we saw from e. jean carroll's lawyers yesterday. a piece of what her lawyers are saying is that what we presuppose will happen in defamation suits, the norms that we expect will be respected, both by the defendants in these cases and by the audiences of these defendants in the future are collapsing in this dynamic. defamation law is really built on a structure that presupposes that the truth will be litigated in front of a jury within the boundaries of the law, within the boundaries of the rules of evidence. and then once it's adjudicated it will be respected. that is, we will remedy the harm that is done to the individual reputation, but we will also remedy the broader societal lie that all of us will hear and understand that the court has adjudicated this defamation case and we will adjust in our own minds what the truth is, that

the record will be clarified. that the truth will prevail. and part of the concern that e. jean carroll's lawyers are articulating here is that isn't happening. that model, those norms are not being observed. we just ordinarily do not see a defamation litigant in these cases losing a case and facing $5 million in damages and then less than 24 hours later standing in p front of an audience that seems welcoming and laughing and engaging with the re-telling of the exact adjudicated lie. and that concern about the undercutting of trusted trust determiners in our democracy, not just courts, but librarians and journalists and academics and scientists, but here particularly courts that are charged with getting to the

bottom of truth. that desire to control the truth by undercutting the truth tellers. the truth-telling institutions is of particular concern and it's particularly animating the next round of litigation that e. jean carroll and her lawyers are putting before the court there in new york. they're describing the need not just to protect this reputation but the need to protect the rule of law. >> it's just an extraordinary point to look at all of this in. he breaks everything. western alliances, defamation norms, everything. ronnell and katie thank you for starting us off today. when we come back, the house republicans investigating joe biden and his family have essentially outloud admitted they're doing it just for politics. their investigations have been a dud, but they're once again saying the quiet part outloud

with a bull horn, they're in had it to help the twice impeached indicted ex-president. and how governors are using the supreme court's rulings to break down the walls between church and stat that existed in this country since the founding. and the story we wanted to bring you yesterday, the rise of pro democracy protests in iran despite tehran's brutal crackdown. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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all it takes is a very quick round of then and now to fully grasp just how far-off the deep end republicans have gone. in just a few short years. a little compare and contrast if you will. consider what current house speaker kevin mccarthy said eight years ago in 2015 about the connection between the benghazi hearings and hillary clinton's poll numbers. >> everybody thought hillary clinton was unbeatable right but we put together a benghazi special committee, a select committee. what are her numbers today? her numbers are dropping. why? because she's untrustable. no one would have known any of that would have happened. >> watch what we did. i remember that clip. i think i remember where i was when i saw it. you may not remember what happened next, though. mccarthy drew such condemnation from those remarks from democrats and republicans and the chairman leading the benghazi investigation that it

may cost him the opportunity to success john boehner as speaker. but we have to remember that was then this is now. here's congressman james comer, the republican leading the investigations into the biden family finances. >> do you think because of your investigations that's what moved the needle with the mediamedia? >> no question. biden is 7 points ahead of joe biden trending upward and joe biden is trending downward. the media is scratching their head realizing the american people are keeping up with our investigation. >> take me to your leader. we should point out, though, so far that investigation run by that guy into the biden family finances has produced nothing. not a single piece of evidence showing that the biden family engaged in any criminal activity.

joining our conversation, eric swalwell of california. donna is still with us. congressman swalwell i know people like you don't need the evidence because you live it and you have the threats to your safety and your family on how radicalized and extreme the republican party has become. but it's rare their own words can tell the story for us. what do you make of comer's distillation? >> i fear we can win the battle and lose the war. we can have the foul called the it was called on kevin mccarthy when he admitted what they were doing with hillary clinton but lose the game so it's effective. we're playing catch up to their lies constantly. that's why i've urged my colleagues to take a 3d approach. which is discredit before every hearing to make sure the public

knows this is all nonsense and unwarranted. two, defend any volley that is substantive. and then to pivot to what we delivered when we were in the majority. he admitted to what they were doing, but the effect is what really worries me. >> in their own information ecosystem it doesn't matter. i think your experience, i know you have some news today about an ethics investigation into you that they used as fodder to smear you for years you've been cleared of any wrong doing. do you want to tell us about that? >> thanks, nicole. i was informed by the house ethics committee today. a complaint brought by a republican over two years ago with allegations about me and a volunteer in our campaign has been closed and no action is going to be taken.

now i knew this all along because the fbi said multiple times that all i did was help them and was never suspected of wrong doing. two different republican chairmen appointed me to the house intelligence committee after this investigation. and so it just reaffirms this was weaponizing a process to try and silence me. and again, what it does, though, the downstream effect is it fires people up, they make false smears, level death threats against me, my staff, my family and you're constantly playing catch up. but it was a relief today to see they affirmed what the fbi had said. or by finding no wrong doing, that's what the fbi had also said. >> it's part of a much more, i think, in depth and important conversation, though, that needs to be had ahead of the next presidentials.

i was a spokesperson at the white house and there was a saying that if they liked you, you could lie to their face if they didn't like you, they didn't trust you. and now, it's revealed in the discovery process, it's a operationalized business model to lie to the public night after night that's why they align their decision desk staff, malign the fact checkers and journalists not because anything i said or do but the truth was a threat to the business model at fox. what is the counter to that? >> competence, community, and we are winning every election, nicole. even where we were supposed to be wiped out in a red wave last november, it -- we beat expectations. we picked up a seat in the senate. so if people believe that

competency and community can overcome chaos we'll continue to win. but this insurrection llc law firm created under jim jordan to help donald trump if they were my lawyers i would fire them, they have lost every hearing on behalf of the donald trump and they're doubling down on extremism and voters want us to be in the middle. show competency and bring community. >> i think the democratic base wants to see democrats fight back aggressively to the brazenness. i know you do that. let me show you another confession. this is jim jordan at c pac. >> all those things need to be investigated so you have the truth. plus that will help frame up the 2024 race when i hope and i think president trump is going to run again and we need to make sure that he wins. >> so jim jordan also running a failure in terms of the substance of what he's unveiled in the months that he's been

handed the reins of his committee. but laying out the motive, i hope and i think trump is going to run again and we need to make sure he wins. all of this is in service of donald trump. >> that's right. we're so close. we're closer than we think to defeating and burying this extremism that maga nation has brought us. and so, you know, i don't go looking for a fight, my colleagues don't go looking for fights. but when we are punched, i think we have to defend democracy and punch back twice as hard. that's what i'm urging colleagues to do, discredit, defend and pivot to what we can deliver. we don't have to be so nice all the time. because too much is on the line for us to just think that being nice is going to win. we have every right in the world, you know, to counter, you know, chaos and extremism and lies. >> donna edwards, i want to bring you in on this. i think there's a real appetite

for the truth to have as aggressive defenders as the propaganda, do you see that yet in your friends and former colleagues in the house? >> i do. i feel like as eric, as congressman swalwell has said, when democrats go out and aggressively defend their position, i've been watching them on these committee hearings, when they have been masterful at laying out the truth, that they're questioning, being very focused, and i think the public is seeing that. and in some ways, just continuing to do their job is what they see versus the other side using political -- using institutions, using committees to defame, i think that this has been an important way for democrats to stand apart from their republican colleagues. >> congressman eric swalwell thank you for spend time with us

today. >> my pleasure. >> and thanks for sharing news with us. donna sticks around. when we come back, the crisis of credibility at the united states supreme court is enough to rethink everything we know about how we cover the court and its decision. a brand new opinion column on that after a quick break. on that after a quick break tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ (water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? ♪ are there animals living underwater? ♪ is the ocean warm?

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today an emboldened texas

legislature is trying to do away with separation of church and state. they're voting on a bill that would require schools to post the ten commandments in classrooms. why now? because rulings by the united states supreme court including one last summer of a coach who prays with his players, have led right wing politicians to believe the court will be on their side. david from the aclu tells "the washington post" this there is an aggressiveness pushing christianity. it's by the perception that the courts will allow this right wing christian nationalism to take root now the doors are wide open. it's that perception that our next guest urges journalists to report on and cover, in her latest column. she tells reporters not to shy

away from the supreme court's politicization and conflict of interests. it is the media's prerogative to treat this court like any other institution with players, rules and motivated operatives. i wonder if all the furry directed right now by the justices at journalists comes from the kid glove treatment they have come to not only enjoy but expect. in covering the court as though the justices were uninteresting and untouchable. is it now any scrutiny is an attack? dalia is joining us now. we got a chance to ask senator sheldon whitehouse about your column yesterday. he joined us and we didn't get to talk to you today. but let me show you his reaction to your column. >> i think the court press also kind of prides itself on access and has not taken a hard look.

there's been nothing like the kind of inquiry made that should have been into the dark money spending behind the advertisements that put the justices on the court, where the federalist society got its list now we know the federal itself society didn't create the list. what billionaires cooked up the list. the questions go on and on. >> he specifically agreed with what you wrote. for people that don't understand how the press corps attached to the white house and how the president works, it's seven days a week, whether the president is on family vacation or working in the white house. it's obviously the same in washington, an organized congressional press corps some reporters also with more access to a senator or representative in their districts or in their states. the supreme court has nothing of the kind and it's a structural change that you're calling for.

explain. >> i think you've just identified it. i think that when i started on this beat, and to be honest, i wrote the entire piece as a mea culpa for covering doctrine in the law instead of covering the court as an institution but i remember being flummoxed there are not press conferences. the justices are not there to give you access, you're there to interpret their opinions to the country. i think we've become so institutionalized that what the justices do and say off the bench or outside the four corners of their opinion is not only not interesting but it's irrelevant because the only thing that matters is their work product. i guess i would say it would be like covering congress and only covering bills. only covering what gets drafted and not covering the day-to-day or the institution itself.

and as you just heard senator whitehouse say i think it's not entirely an accident that all the reporting coming out, whether it's ginni thomas texting mark meadows, whether it is the stories we're hearing about the court not having ethics rules. all of this is being broken not by the supreme court press corps we cover the cases. it's reported by investigative reporter who have zoomed into the vacuum. >> and scoops come from documents. they're not attacks. they're documents. pounding the pavement, scrutinizing documents. people had the documents in their possession but didn't have the time to investigate what they contain. it's looking at the body as something worthy of investigating. i want to push a little bit. i remember mitch mcconnell being on the set of "morning joe" and he had a crumbled up sheet of

paper when asked for his support to donald trump, he had a list of judges that trump agreed to appointing. there's no way trump picked 30 judges from around the country. talk about the whole system on the right that goes without much scrutiny. >> well, this is sort of i think the thing that senator whitehouse has been trying and trying to get us to pay attention to for a long time, long before the recent ethic stories. and i think in effect we have two stories we tell about the court. one is that it is the temple at one first street and that the justices are just nine brains in vats gliding about on magical wings, calling balls and strikes. that's a story by the way the justices like very much.

and it's a story we all like to tell because it makes us able to sleep at night. this isn't political. the minute a justice is sworn in, they drop whatever personal predilections and preferences and ideologies they have and do the law. i think that is a magical thinking that has made us all feel very good about the court for a very long time. the problem is i think while one side continued to tell that story and say things like we want to put good judges on, we want them to be fair, we want them to apply the law, we had a juggernaut on the other side built by people like leonard leo and the federalist society and other groups through a system of cases, citizens united, shelby county, doesn't matter where you set the marker, were not just pouring money into the court, into elections, but they were pouring money into a programmatic seating of judges who agreed with them. so i think in some sense we're

feeling a little pantsed right now. i think that's the legal word because we took our eye off the ball and said -- who the we is in this question is complicated. there's phenomenal reporters covering the court but no one was doing the work of saying leonard leo gave kellyanne conway money to give to gini thomas and there was something that said she can't know and that wasn't a story? i think we got so far behind on covering the court like a partisan political bought and sold institution now we're trying to keep up. >> thank you both for spending time with us today. when we come back, the antigovernment demonstrations on the streets of iran are growing after the regime's recent execution of three protesters. the prodemocracy actionist will

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violating the law and not wearing a hi job. the three men were brutally tortured, forced into televised confessions and denied human rights before execution. protests subsided in recent months with sporadic acts of defiance. joining us arc american journalist, activists and one of the inspirational leaders supporting the protesters in iran. ma si, tell us what's going on. >> it's beyond sad, because when you mention about the number of these people who got executed, i have to say that first of all, they are not numbers. second of all, it's more than that. more than 50 people got executed. less than two weeks. and when you showed the picture, i got goose bumps. they were totally innocent. they were totally innocent. and they actually imagined, these three amazing guys, they managed, actually, to send

handwriting note to outside prison. one simple demand -- please don't let them kill us. that became a hashtag. iranians did everything. many iranians went in front of prison with empty hands and chanting against the leaders of the islamic republic and begging them, don't kill these innocent protesters, but they got executed. and the family members, the father go and sleep on the grave, hopeless. and another thing they want to say, just today, this young man, muhammad, only 22 years old, he received death sentence just today. >> for what? >> for peacefully protest, nicolle. for peacefully taking to the street and saying, why you kill mahsa amini.

the islamic republic know how to kill them without paying any price. now it's fading out. nobody talks about iran and -- >> their behavior is worse when there's less international press scrutiny of their brutality. >> of course. when many parliamentarians across the globe started to responser the political prisoners inside iran, when the whole world was watching and talking about these incident protesters, they didn't dare to kill them. they stopped the executions. now they believe that, first of all, there was no punishment. second of all, the united nations actually appointed the killers, the islamic republic, as the chair, like, the leadership of human rights council. i expected the u.s. government to condemn that. when i walk in the street in

america, ordinary people who watch our interview together, they talk about iran, they care about iran. they want to know, all is good together? i want the u.s. government to be like the people in the united states of america. >> what would you like the government to do? even on the just the appointment of iran to the human rights council? >> i want biden administration to condemn that, and like when they were the one leading to kick out the islamic republic from top body at the united nations. now united nations became a place to unite the dictators, so the u.s. government, the democratic countries, they must kick out the islamic republic and have to take a strong action instead of negotiating with these killers. >> you're always welcome here. we'll keep a focus on it. thank you for being here. >> please don't abandon the iranian people. thank you so much. >> thank you for being back here. masih, thank you for your voice

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desantis is expected announce his 2024 presidential campaign alongside elon musk on that website. no, this is not the premise of a "snl" skit. if you think about it it makes sense that the elected official who's repeatedly shown he's rader be somewhere, anywhere other than interacting with voters, has chose ton make his announcement not in front of people, on the internet. remember, it was twitter that helped propel donald trump to gop superstardom, and now that company's owner will be sitting with and introduce his chief competition ahead of the 2024 race. many thanks to my colleague dasha burns and our msnbc news colleagues for this delicious scoop. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts rights now. >> as always you put it incisively. i'm more excited for that than ng