the house. >> this dove tails with new reporting this morning about how republican leadership is feeling more confident a deal can be reached in the coming days. democrats growing more and more unhappy with what they think may happen. nicholas johnston, thank you so much for being with us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ i in the cascades of washington, the world's largest radio transmitter. 1 million watts can flash around the world in a tenth of a second. >> it's certainly an incredible honor to have governor ron desantis make this stark announcement. >> the general sends the first message using the type key on which he relayed the titanic disaster messages. >> i think so. >> a ship or installation anywhere on the globe can be instantly reached from radio jim creek, as the station is known.

>> sorry about that. we've got so many people here, that i think we are kind of melting the servers. >> answering messages begin coming in over the station's teletype. >> ron desanctimonious needs a personally transplant, and those are not yet available. >> killed at $14 million, the station emboies the last word in radio transmission. >> let's see. >> crashing, huh? >> wow. >> ah. >> okay, you have to give a hat tip to dan and the gang for putting that together. >> good job. >> well. >> that was awkward. >> welcome to "morning joe." that was our producers putting together their view of his failure to launch, ron desantis. >> on twitter. >> we can obviously talk about this an awful lot. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, may 25th. willie, the thing is, we're in the age of twitter. we're in the age of social media. everybody is going to freak out

at that exact moment, and they certainly did. there was a meltdown over the meltdown. it was bad. i mean, it was bad on so many fronts. but he raised some money. he got people talking about him today, not in a positive way. there is a long way to go. this would be like the first game of 162-game baseball season, and your star pitcher getting the ball and accidentally throwing it and hitting himself in the face. it happens. but there's 161 other games left. i mean this. >> yeah. >> but it does -- it just shows, you know, they may just have to start talking to some people who have done this before instead of relying just on themselves. because they don't want to repeat this too many times moving forward. >> yeah, some candidates launch their campaigns by walking in front of the statue of liberty with their family as the wind

blows, and others go with a choppy twitter space feed with elon musk. >> no video. >> i thought, yes, this is amusing. it was supposed to be a finger in the eye to the establishment. we're not playing your game. we're not doing it the way it's been done. we're a different campaign. i'll sit down with elon musk and do it on twitter, and that backfired. it'll matter for, what, 24 hours, and then he steps out there and becomes a real candidate, mika. we'll see if he can do it. >> yeah, it's the long game. we'll be watching. along with joe, willie and me, we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. former white house director of communications to president obama, jen palmieri. and nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. they're both co-hosts of showtime's "the circus." before we get to politics, reverend al, she was electric on stage, ahead of her time, simply the best, tina turner. talk about her passing, what an

incredible -- just an icon. >> she was not only ahead of her time, she redefined her time. >> correct. >> what she did to music, you couldn't even really put in words. because tina turner broke through so many barriers in the rock r&b era for women, for blacks, and for people that were recovering from adversity. i mean, she very openly took her suffering and pain in her personal life and showed people how they could overcome and survive and thrive. because i think everyone talks about how her husband used to brutalize her, and she was open about that, talked about it. >> right. >> but what they don't talk about is that he also came at a time where men could dominate and rule women's careers. she not only got by his abuse, she proved that a woman can come back without the man managing

her. >> and way better. >> without the man being the front man and go way better, sell more records, pack more auditoriums without ike. she proved women don't need a man to become the queen, whether you crown us or not. we're going to be the queen. in so many ways, tina turner was the ultimate. >> joe, it shows the impact she had. it's front page news on literally every paper we have. not just on the tabloids but above the fold in the "wall street journal" and on "the times," as well. she had hits with ike turner. covered "proud mary," a credence clearwater revival song. but "private dancer," that's when she became this phenomenon, on a tour where she was selling out football stadiums around the world and had this renaissance and won a bunch of grammys for that, too. was in poor health and was living in switzerland in the

last few years, but she's been called the queen of rock 'n' roll. it's hard to argue with that when you think through her career. >> it really is. i mean, you look, john heilemann, 1970, "proud mary." then seemed to disappear from the public spotlight a good bit. 1984, she comes back bigger than ever with "private dancer." "what's love got to do with it." ended the '90s, "simply the best." she came back more and more. what a massive presence in rock history. >> yeah, you know, you think about that 1984, it was a really incredible year for pop culture and for rock 'n' roll. people harp back to that time, think about michael jackson, you think about prince, some think of bruce springsteen, three enormously -- all had huge records in 1984. all of them were over mtv, were huge. she was the fourth. at the time, as inescapable in a

lot of ways on music television and in arenas, as willie pointed out, across the world, she was as big a star -- no one was a bigger star than michael jackson with "thriller," but they were the mt. rushmore. there was the olympics that summer, and american music traveled around the world. really, she was -- madonna was in the group, too, but she was really inspirational in a way that almost no one else was. >> yeah. >> because of that feminist iconography, maybe she was the first woman in rock 'n' roll who seemed to overcome, you know, all of -- everything, ike turner's relationship and how she was treated by the industry for a long time, it was like the crystallization of every form of misogyny in the music business, the entertainment industry. it landed with a crash on her head.

when she came back, people are like, she's too old, won't ever be back. in the '80s even, it was an incredibly inspiring thing and set a certain kind of template for the way a lot of women came later in the '80s and then the '90s. white, black, men, women, man, she was just huge and beloved, you know, as beloved as any of these people to today. >> no one like her in terms of performance ability. i mean, just dynamic. there is no words to describe just the power of her performance. we're going to have much more ahead on the life and legacy of tina turner. we'll turn to politics now. as we said, ron desantis has officially entered the 2024 white house race. as we said, the livestream event on twitter got off to kind of a rocky start, crashing several times, with the announcement delayed by more than 20 minutes due to a series of technical

glitches. >> all right. sorry about that. we -- we've got so many people here, i think we are kind of melting the servers. >> let's see, so -- >> yeah. >> just to simply this, let's see. >> just crashing, huh? >> i think we're back online here. great. all right. well, certainly an incredible honor to have governor desantis make this stark announcement. >> oh, the technical troubles drew mockery on social media. president joe biden posted a link to his donation page, writing simply, "this link works." former president donald trump had a series of posts on truth social, calling the announcement fatal and a disaster. he also had one strange post, where he wrote, quote, rob, my red button is bigger, better and stronger and is working, truth.

wait, i'm so uncomfortable right now. yours does not. per my conversation with kim jong-un of north korea, soon to become my friend. i'm going to let that sit right there. okay. >> that's one of those if a relative posts that, you send somebody to the house, just to check in. >> at this point, you need to intervene. you need to help. >> somebody has to step in there. meanwhile, a senior ron desantis official said, governor desantis broke the internet. that should tell you everything you need to know about the strength of his cancandidacy. desantis also tried to spin the technical difficulties as excitement for his campaign. that was during a fox news interview last night. >> we had a huge audience. it did -- it was the biggest they'd ever had. it did break the twitter space, and so we're really excited with the enthusiasm. but ultimately, it's about future of our country. >> did willie say -- >> desantis spokesperson said

the campaign raised $1 million online in one hour. a top adviser claimed more than 700,000 people joined the virtual rollout. the florida governor enters the race with a big cash advantage. "politico" reported last month his state re-election account had $80 million left from his gubernatorial race. didn't need it, won by 19 points. that can be transferred to a federal pac. a super pac for desantis reportedly raised $33 million. that official number will not be made public until july. so that may be the point, jen, for the campaign, that they got attention. it wasn't the kind they wanted but they raised a bunch of money and this won't matter in the long term. as someone who is the communication director -- as john heilemann listens to tina turner on his phone there. >> give me your phone. >> it's fair. >> a small glitch. you've had these before. >> wait. >> that was bill clinton in 1992. i was doing some research for this segment.

>> just bursts the excitement for your campaign. >> i thought you were showing how desantis launched. >> that was a technical glitch. i broke the "morning joe" set. >> fair enough. >> jen? >> it's all about the posts. >> jen, as a communications professional, you thought what as that rolled out last night. >> i mean, it was an abomination, but -- and just so much hubris all around from desantis, us. by the way, 700,000 people is not that much. twitter should be able to handle that. but for the maga base, which surprisingly is the group of voters that, you know, desantis does seem to be going for, not the moderate republicans, he's going for the maga base, i'm sure they loved the unconventionality. they loved the finger in the eye of the press. you know, tim scott needed a good launch. he needed a good launch to introduce himself. desantis doesn't need a great launch to have a great campaign. everybody knows who -- the republican voters know who he

is. they need to know if they like him. in the end, they were probably thinking, this is worth the trouble we did. >> joe? >> you know, it's -- it was really a really bad start. again, i've been saying it could be a one-day, two-day story depending on what happens as we move forward. it's a very long campaign. i will say, just backing up, though, thinking over it, and i always tell people when running for office, i say your two most important days are the day you launch and the day you count the votes. and the day you launch sets the tone of everything, shows people how professional you are, that you actually know what you're doing. that's the one day -- that's kind of like the first attack, you know? mike tyson always had the joke, everybody had a plan until somebody gets punched in the face the first time. this is the first punch, you control that. as jen knows better than me, and rev knows, who ran before, far better than me, after that

punch, you don't control everything. it's all incoming. it shows what candidate you are. john heilemann, based on that measurement, it really was an embarrassment for the desantis campaign. i mean, they say they broke the internet. they ended up with 200,000 people watching, listening, whatever they were doing. if they'd gone on fox, they would have had well over 1 million people. if they'd gone on, well, a lot of cable news shows, they would have had over a million. if they'd gone on broadcast, they'd probably have even more people. if they'd gone on, you know, some other show. it seems they made the worst of all choices. that said, though, this was, this was for a candidate and also for, like, silicon valley tech engineers who hate the mainstream media, not engineers, titans who hate the mainstream media, hate wokeness, to put

that in quotes, and always, you know, want to play the grieved, it probably worked. >> i don't know, not sure for anybody. look, i think to your point, joe, you can launch a presidential campaign poorly and still win your party's nomination. it's happened. but this is a free shot at doing something really well. if you do it really well, it can be something that people remember forever. you know, i think of my friend jen palmieri here, thinking back to 2008, when hillary clinton announced from her sun room. then you had the images, within a few days, of barack obama at the old statehouse in springfield, illinois, on a cold day, giving an inspiring speech. that produced not just a huge audience to watch initially, it was in thousands of obama campaign ads. >> yeah. >> it was a moment that look back at, it set the tone for the

campaign. people in hillary clinton's world thought she gave a nice speech in the sun room, but it's not something everybody would remember again. it was a missed opportunity. donald trump, for the criticism and terrible things he said when he got down to the end of the escalator in 2016, people still talk about it today. donald trump coming down the escalator in trump tower, he made an iconic moment for himself. part of the reason i was trying to remember bill clinton announcing, also at the old statehouse in october of 1991 in little rock. a thing that, again, was in campaign ads all of 1992. can you win without a great launch? you can. but you have, as you said, joe, it's a free throw here. you have all the time in the world, as ron desantis has, to set this up and get it right. they blew it in that sense. a missed opportunity. i will say, having come at the end of all of the flubs over the last -- in the pre-campaign, all the things they've screwed up in the last two or three months, it is creating this question, which you never want to face if you are a presidential candidate,

the filter, us, the media, world looking at you going, "can anybody play this game?" that's not how you want people greeting your entrance to the race. >> that's the big question coming from donors and the base, people saying in the republican party, "who can beat donald trump right now?" this is the one thing you completely control. it's all within your control. he ceded the control to a glitchy platform with a guy who was, you know, he just knew he was going to take up a lot of the space, a lot of the oxygen. he knew that, and he made the move anyway. you know, rev, john is so right. you look back at barack obama's owning announcement, how ronald reagan launched his fall campaign in front of the statue of liberty in 1980. i mean, you talk about the launch of your campaign. talk about how the launch matters so much. it does set the tone.

here, again, this could all be forgotten in a week or two. that said, unfortunately, too often, it foreshadows either problems or strengths in the campaign to follow. >> i think you want to launch by giving the optics of your message and why you're running. i launched by having a rally and having a lot of the people that mattered to the people that i was hoping would vote for me standing there with me. that was the message i wanted to give. i think those that you mentioned did similar launches. i think that not only was this a mess-up, the thing we have to keep in mind is desantis is challenging trump, who will never let us forget that he messed up the launch. so we can say for anyone else, it's one day, tomorrow it'll be something else. every chance trump gets, he's going to say, how can this man

run the economy when he can't run a launch? how can this man handle international global affairs when he can't handle a launch? i mean, if you were running against candidates that would move on, i would say, "don't worry about it, governor desantis." but you're running against donald trump. he won't ever let you forget it. more importantly, he will never let us forget it. that's how trump is. you just served him a softball, and he is going to keep hitting that ball over the fence every chance he can. >> mm-hmm. recent polls taken before his announcement yesterday have ron desantis significantly behind donald trump in the republican primary. in the latest cnn national survey conducted last week, the florida governor trails trump by 27 points among registered republican and republican-leaning independent voters. in a march poll, the deficit for desantis was just four points. the latest quinnipiac national survey has desantis trailing

trump by 31 points. he trailed by 14 points in march. and a new emerson college of iowa republicans out just this morning has trump ahead of desantis 62% to 20%. let's bring in former chair of the new hampshire republican party. she knows a thing or two about this. jennifer horn. >> good morning. >> ron desantis has a long way to go. what do you make of this botched rollout and the impact in the long run? >> well, there's no question that this was -- there's nothing good. you know, he went on fox and tried to spin it, "oh, yeah, we broke the internet." that's not what happened, unfortunately, last night. it is possible that in a few months, as you look back, it might be we learn the internet broke ron desantis. it created a moment for donald trump, but equally important to that, it also -- when you look at the poll numbers and the degree to which desantis is --

his numbers are declining, it's probably undermined the confidence of a lot of the primary voters that he really desperately needs right now. there was a hashtag going last night, d-e aster. those things can stick. he needs to get to iowa and new hampshire and impress people face-to-face, you know, a little more than he has now if he wants to have any chance at this. he may have hit, you know, to joe's point earlier, he may have hit his peak already. again, as you look at those numbers, last night did not help him in any manner. >> no. >> jennifer, if we move past the technical side of this, which most probably will by tomorrow, you get to the meat of what he and elon musk were talking about, you try to find what the message is, the rational is for the campaign, why he would beat

donald trump. it was an arcane conversation when you get down to it. they were talking about the college accreditation process, taking that away from schools that use d.e.i. complaining about "vanity fair" magazine, all these things he believes are unfair to him. he didn't really go after donald trump in a direct way. he complained about the appointees, christopher wray, powell, and donald trump appointed them. at the end, he didn't go at the guy he has to go after if he wants to be the nominee. is that going to change? is he going to try to tiptoe around donald trump somehow. >> it sounded whiny last night, didn't it, parts of it? i saw some people talking about, gee, it was an hour of talking about policy. we never get that in politics. it was, to your point, it was just -- it was so in the weeds in some areas, just honestly, i think not particularly engaging

for a lot of voters. he has to get past that. it seems to be a fear they all have, to confront donald trump. somebody has to do that. that's how you win a campaign. the other folks sitting at the table will tell you that. when you're in second, third, fourth, fifth place, you have to go after the guy in first place. they all appear to be afraid to do that. i think with desantis, it is starting to come across a little bit, or a lot bit, like he is empty. he has all this bluster. look at me, i'm the authoritarian governor of this one state. when push comes to shove and he is announcing, he is afraid to call donald trump out. he's afraid to say what has to be said. i don't know how you win like that. >> yeah, i totally agree. former chair of the new hampshire republican party, jennifer horn. as always, thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> rev, i wanted to follow up on what willie said.

you know, you sit there talking about college accreditation, esg, and, yeah, i want people to talk about policy and everything, but so many of the things they're talking about cater to such a small subset of the republican base. ronald reagan, people talked about the genius of reagan. he'd talk about things 90% of americans would agree with, right? he picked the issues. he understood what moved americans. he understood, you know, how to talk in a way that united people. listening to some of the policy discussions last night where they're going deep into the weeds into this wokeness -- again, i understand a small portion of their base are going to make decisions on -- i mean, that's like if you're getting up and you're reading, you know -- all you do is preach on leviticus. you're going through the history of the text here, "now, i'm going to read you the hebrew

text. then let me give you the interpretation of what that means. compare that to some greek text that's found later in the scripture." people are glazed over. yeah, there will be a couple of nerds in your church that want to hear that. a couple people that went to seminary, "oh, yes, yes," and they'll rub their beards. but for these people that are wanting to figure out, do i want this guy to run america? does he believe in the greatness of america? does he believe that america is still a city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see? does he believe in the power of small business and entrepreneurs and family businesses and restaurants, to build up a community, build up a -- you get the idea. the big picture, what's your vision? not nerd quest on esg regulations. >> no, you're exactly right.

you must know some seminarians that i know, that can give you 12 translations but never really give you the meaning of the text. i think that's -- >> exactly. >> -- what happened with desantis. the other part of that is that it sas to people, you really don't understand me, so why should i vote for you? if you're not addressing my concerns, then why am i choosing you over the alternative? you're running against someone who was president. as corrupt and mean spirited as i think he is, he was the president. so you've got to tell republican voters why i'm a better candidate, why i understand you more, why i can answer and fulfill your needs better than he can. that's the route that you have to go if you're going to be successful. he didn't even come within miles of that last night, even when he

did get on. i think that is going to be -- if that's a forecast, that's going to be something that will lead to a disaster for him. he has got to not only take trump on, he's got to show that i know you and will stand for you better than trump will. >> mika, did you fill out your bingo card, that this is the morning that joe would go negative on leviticus. he likes the old testament, the new testament, but i never heard him single out a part of the bible for attack. >> yet again, joe. >> shocking. >> i'm a new testament guy. i'm a new testament guy. rev will tell you, whenever somebody brings up leviticus, there's eye rolling going on in the church. today, i'm going to preach only

on on that. >> right. >> let's have a debate on all the stuff, it's great. mika, i'll repeat what we have been trying to say on this show to donald trump since he got -- ran his campaign and continued getting more negative. politics. politics. it's a game of addition. >> right. >> again, staying with the church analogy. you want to throw open the doors of that church, you want people hearing the music, you want people coming in, you want them to hear the good news, not the greek version of chapters, of ancient scripture. you want to do what reagan knew how to do.

you want to do what clinton knew how to do, what kennedy knew what to do, what obama, what all of these people knew how to do. and right now, it's a game of subtraction. it's been that way in the trump republican party. it's why they've been losing. they need, like i say, to throw open those church doors, preach the good news, and, man, make it for a big audience. >> yeah. >> instead of the angriest people in your base. if you do, a weird thing happens. you win elections. >> i know someone who is good at that, by the way. aside from the people you've named, joe biden, quietly very good at the game of addition. still always underestimated. >> yes, he is. still ahead on "morning joe," with lawmakers struggling to reach a deal on the debt ceiling, fitch has placed the united states credit on a negative watch. that will go over -- what it'll

mean for the u.s. economy. plus, the january 6th rioter who was photographed with his feet on a desk in nancy pelosi's office gets serious prison time. we'll have that story. also ahead, dnc chair jaime harrison joins us to discuss the state of the 2024 race on the heels of yesterday's announcement by ron desantis. and grammy award winning singer/song writer sara bareilles is our guest this morning. she joins us with a look at her brand-new project for audible. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius!

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6:34 in the morning. a rioter who was photographed with his feet on a desk in then speaker nancy pelosi's office, in that building during the january 6th insurrection, has been sentenced now to 4 1/2 years in prison. 63-year-old richard barnett was convicted in january on eight charges, including theft of government property and remaining or entering restricted grounds with a deadly weapon. in addition to a stun device, he armed himself with a 10-pound steel pole. his lawyers argued the retired firefighter and bull rider from arkansas came to washington for the first time to peacefully protest. didn't turn out that way. unfortunately, they say, he was caught up in the events that took place on january 6th. but the judge disagreed with that version of events, sentencing barnett to 54 months behind bars for his actions that day. >> wow. marjorie taylor greene, republican congresswoman, temporarily presided over the

house of representatives yesterday. she made an attempt to quiet the chamber by calling for decorum. here's how democrats responded. >> the members are reminded to abide by decorum of the house. [ laughter ] >> the house will be in order. >> yeah, as you heard, the georgia congresswoman's calls for composure were met with a burst of prolonged laughter. it comes just months after greene heckled president biden repeatedly during his state of the union address, when she broke decorum and shouted, "liar." that among many other things, jen. i think the democrats just --

that was very natural. that just came from everywhere. >> that was -- yeah, that was very organic. >> it was not planned. >> that was not planned. >> it was like, "are you kidding me?" >> yeah, a rare moment of sincerity in the house floor. >> i wonder if they ever got it together. we continue to remember the queen of rock 'n' roll. a look at the life and lasting impact of music icon tina turner. that's next on "morning joe." (water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? uh... you were made to remember some days forever. we were made to help you find the best way there. ♪ are you getting the sleep you deserve? well, this is your wakeup call to sleep on a casper mattress

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." we're back with more on the passing of music legend tina turner. she left an indelible mark on

rock 'n' roll and influenced a new generation of artists. nbc's "nightly news" anchor lester holt recounts her life and incredible legacy. >> reporter: that powerful voice. that electrifying dancing. no wonder tina turner was known as the queen of rock 'n' roll. >> i walk out onto the stage, it's one, big healthy party. that's the feeling, and that's what i always wanted. >> reporter: after an iconic career and a life of hardship and resilience, the 83-year-old legend died at her home in switzerland following a long illness. born anna mae bullock in tennessee in 1938, she was

raised by sharecroppers. she was discovered we ike turner, who gave her the stage name. they performed together as the ike and tina turner review. in their 16 years of marriage, ike's abuse was brutal and unrelenting. >> there was no control, no freedom. you just get fed up and you say, "life is not worth living if i'm going to stay in this situation." >> reporter: tina fled in 1976. she said she had just 36 cents and a mobile card to her name. a scene recreated in the 1993 biopic, "what's love got to do with it?" >> tina turner. my husband and i just had a fight. >> reporter: it was after she broke free from ike she truly became a superstar. >> i got to be known as a grae performer. i never tried to change my style

because of any other style. i just stayed true to what i do. >> reporter: along the way, she won eight grammys and had six top ten hits. a super bowl halftime show. and a broadway musical about her life. >> sitting there watching them do the show that it took me years to learn and do. and here, it took them a matter of months to master. >> reporter: in a recent hbo documentary, turner reflecting on all she'd been through. >> i had an abusive life. there's no other way to tell the story. >> reporter: a survivor and performer, tina turner was simply one of the best. >> i think i have something very special to do. it makes sense to me that i'm here for something more than my

dancing and all of what i've done with my life. >> so much more than that. what a story she leaves. what a legacy she leaves. let's bring in right now the host of sirius xm's '80s on 8. you were there in '83, '84. those were the years when all the stars collided. michael jackson, bruce springsteen, prince, madonna, all just dominating the stage. i'm just curious what you first thought when somebody said, "hey, we got tina turner. she has a new album coming out, and we're going to put it into the rotation." who could have imagined, mark, crazy. >> for sure. first, thanks for having me on. tina was a has been. she was washed up. the fact that someone like her would come back and come back at

the time that she did, think about what was going on in music. as you pointed out, joe. for some woman who was in her mid 40s, to actually make it on mtv, stunning. >> yeah, and it's hard, again, for some people to remember just what mtv meant to music and breaking artists in '82, '83, '84. obviously, a visual medium. a lot of young bands from all over the world, 18, 19, 20, 21-year-olds. again, here comes a woman in her 40s, a has been supposedly, whose last massive hit was in 1970. talk about, though, how tina turner helped mtv and also how that powerful engine of mtv, it catapulted her back into fame. because she fit, she fit the medium so well.

>> i think we all know, those of us who loved mtv back in the day, some artists really just segued right into video. it was as though the medium was waiting for them. tina turner absolutely the case. you're right, she was perfect for what was happening on mtv at that time. who was more visual? who was more electrifying? who clearly -- we knew the history by this time. we knew what she had been through. we knew that mick jagger was studying her. we saw her in "give me shelter." that moment for her, and she's said it, that moment was the pinnacle of her career. >> good morning, it's willie geist. great to have you on the show this morning. something that rev was just talking about earlier, i think, has to be said again. we heard it in lester's piece there, which is how she walked away from ike turner in a way that -- in a very public way, talked about the abuse she suffered, and said to a lot of women, you can get out of that

abusive relationship and go on to thrive, as you just documented. that part of her story, that feminist side of the story, was such an important part of who she was, as well, wasn't it? >> it's true. massively important. i think that we know that she really sort of was a sign post for so many women who were in that kind of relationship. yes, you can get out. you can survive. you can thrive. all of that, she pointed the way. but she's said, the reason she didn't show up in the 1991 induction, when she was inducted into the rock hall with ike, she wanted to separate herself from that. she wanted to be tina turner, the star, the queen of rock 'n' roll that she was. she wanted to separate herself from that without leaving those victims behind. >> yeah, but that story, i mean, it gives me chills, john heilemann. she left an abusive relationship

with literally pennies in her pocket. talk about sort of knowing your value to its core. >> seriously. you know, i was showing jen, thinking about this, you know, the three big songs from the record, "private dancer," and "what's love got to do with it," was huge. "you got to be good to me," the video, it was the one that punched through, the upbeat song. again, feminist anthem. i have occasion to quote lyrics. listen to her singing, because i don't have no use for you. you loosely call the truth. i don't have the time for your overloaded lie, so you better be good to me. mid 40s black woman singing that song in america on mtv, in a video that was, you know, as ubiquitous, mark, as anything. summer of '84, the video was probably in rotation every hour on mtv, and that's at a time where mtv was popular culture. >> for sure. tina at that moment, when "private dancer" came out, that

first single started to become a hit, all of a sudden, we kind of realized it really was this kind of wave. i was lucky enough to interview her when she came in for "private dancer." in fact, i know you just showed one of the pics from that interview. this was pre-wigs. this was right at the beginning of "private dancer." we talked about how thrilled she was to finally get to what she had set her mind to all those years ago. that's what she wanted. i want to be the queen of rock 'n' roll. just nothing, nothing like that woman. no one can top her. >> mark, al sharpton. one of the things that i want you to talk about is the fact that she not only broke from the abusive relationship with ike, which no one should minimize, but also the artistic side of her that broke.

because one of the things that you know in show business is a lot of the misogyny was the men would say, "you're not that good. i'm making you good." ike tried to convince her she was not a talent onto herself. so not only did she break through for women that you don't have to become enslaved within an abusive relationship, you can stand on your own as an artist. ike didn't make me good, i'm good. i think as she blossomed, she taught a lot of women, during a time where, in music, men were dominant, that you don't have to be under the thumb of a man. you can express yourself. i think that a lot of people are missing that message with tina really making it clear to us. >> tina turner absolutely showed what a woman can do on her own. she really -- she blazed that

path for not only women, black women, i think for performers in general. she showed what belief in yourself is. she showed what it means to pull yourself out of an abusive, difficult relationship, and to somehow, and she was a practicing buddhist and this meant a lot to her and it saved her life, she really focused on her faith. she prayed every day. she believed, and this is what happened. >> wow. >> you know, mark, that's what i want to touch on really quickly here with you as we end. i'm going through all the tributes to tina turner. >> oh, yeah. >> they're all talking about tina turner the woman, tina turner the person, not the queen of rock, not the great performer, the great singer. mick jagger said this, "she was truly an enormously talented performer and singer. she was inspiring, warm, funny and generous.

she helped me so much when i was young, and i will never forget her." again, nothing in there about the music, all about the incredible person she was. >> you know, i forgot about this, but martha quinn, my fellow former mtv deejay, posted something last night that i completely forgot about. martha saw tina wear this incredible, iconic sequence gold dress. martha commented to her at the time how much she loved that dress. a week later in martha's dressing room, a box arrived, she opened it up and there was the dress. tina had sent her the dress. >> sirius xm's mark goodman, thank you very much for that tribute this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead on ""morning joe," wes moore is our guest.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." 6:57. three minutes to 7:00, beautiful look at new york city. my god, i love new york this time of year. may, june, it's just phenomenal. so that's my weather forecast and my sort of babeling around. >> pretty good, joe. >> i'm sorry, weather on the 7s. john, we're talking about popular culture and music as it pertains to tina turner, but we've left out a huge part of that story. that's the "mad max" movies which she was a part of. went from a cult favorite to a

massive hit. again, just part of the culture you and i grew up in. >> yeah. withwe talked about '84 with the collabs. then "we don't need another hero" in 1985. "thunder dome" was the movie of the summer of 1985. she was in it. she had a number one hit. she may have won a grammy for that performance. she was, again, it kept rolling. she came out of the cannon in '84 and had a big second half of the '80s, too, and that was part of it. >> so cool. coming up, the start of last night's much-anticipated twitter event in which ron desantis was set to announce his presidential bid. it didn't really go as planned. we'll have more on the florida governor's glitchy campaign

launch. glitchy, not glitzy. plus, "the wall street journal" editorial board calls "the ron desantis challenge." "morning joe" will be right back. ll be right back

voters who are participating in this process, my pledge to you is this, if you nominate me, you can set your clock to january 20th, 2025, at high noon. on the west side of the u.s. capitol, i will be taking the oath of office as the 47th president of the united states. no excuses, i will get the job done. >> okay, so that was one of the moments where you could actually hear ron desantis. >> that's good.

>> announcing his presidential campaign on twitter spaces. what is twitter spaces? do you know? >> i don't really -- >> it's up at the top. >> i've never used it. >> the middle. >> yeah, it's where you do audio chats. >> oh. >> good conversation. >> no, no. okay. well, it was very glitchy, the whole thing. it comes as election organizers for the florida governor are planning a massive voter outreach effort in hopes of making up the huge deficit he currently faces in polling with donald trump. and we'll get an update on president biden's re-election campaign from a national advisory board member and maryland governor, wes moore. he joins us in just a moment. welcome back to "morning joe." second hour, everyone. you ready? willie? >> let's do it. >> you're good, okay. i don't know. lemire is looking a little tired. >> i'm good. >> just a little tired. >> thursday, may 25th. jen palmieri and reverend al still with us.

joining us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief for "politico," jonathan lemire. and former congresswoman and now analyst, claire mccaskill. willie? >> the florida governor jumped into the presidential race during an audio stream with elon musk, hampered by technical glitches. international correspondent gabe gutierrez has more. >> reporter: after teasing a run for months with stops in iowa, new hampshire and a high profile overseas trip. >> you can see the brighter future. >> reporter: florida governor ron desantis is diving into the presidential race in a highly unconventional way. in addition to a new add, an audio only announcement on twitter spaces with billionaire elon musk that appeared to have technical glitches. >> we have so many people here, i think we are kind of melting

the servers. >> reporter: desantis now seen as republican front runner, former president trump's, toughest opponent. five years ago, trump's endorsement critical to desantis' victory in his first run for governor. he counted it in this campaign ad with his kids. >> make america great again. >> reporter: the relationship souring after desantis' landslide re-election win, he argues he is the best pick to take on president biden. >> we must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. >> stood for what is right. >> reporter: details how a super pac plans to do it. $200 million operating budget that includes hiring 2,600 field organizers by labor day. but desantis trails trump by more than 25 points in many polls. now, in the state both men call home, a scramble for gop primary voters. we met this trump supporter,

monique pope, attorney and supporter of two. >> i believe president trump can bring us across the finish line. >> reporter: while desantis backer, robert salvador, tells us he moved his software business from illinois to florida because the governor removed covid restrictions early. >> we saw his leadership during covid. when everyone was yelling at him across the country, around the world, to shut down. >> gabe gutierrez there. glitch-filled rollout. it was supposed to be a eye to media, politics, but as we've been saying, it'll be amuing for a few hours, and then we'll see what candidate he will be. the topics they covered were arkane, targeted to an audience. what will be his message if not going after donald trump? he didn't, in a direct way, go after the man who is 20, 30 points ahead of him at this point. >> the glitch-filled launch probably won't water in a day or so. it undermines competency, part

of the desantis argument, "hey, i'll get things done, opposed to donald trump who brings chaos." it also reinforces the idea that he is speaking to a small piece of the electorate, an online piece of the electorate. i don't know how that'll translate to the rest of the country. the team put out he'll have his first visual event next week in iowa. there won't be a florida kick-off event as had been rumored. he'll head to des moines. at some point, he'll have to take on trump. he has to do it. not just desantis, the other republicans have to figure this out, as well. but trump looms so large over the field. he had a lot of fun yesterday poking at desantis and his failed launch. he calls him rob now for some reason. no idea. he's going to go with that. >> all right. >> rob desantis, the governor of florida. they're going to have to figure this out and find a way to score points. they can't rely on potential criminal indictments to do it. so far, those are only making

trump stronger in the early primary goals. >> mika, it is interesting to see how murdoch-owned media is framing this. "the new york post" says, "he's off and running, ron is ready to rumble, finally a trump alternative." sidebar says, "musk muffs launch." this is an elon musk problem. >> they made a choice to an extent there. in the "wall street journal," "the ron desantis challenge." this is the board writing in part, this, the rap against mr. desantis is that he is a cultural brawler more than a likable unifier. there's truth to this. he's no backslapper, and he'd benefit from even a little of ronald reagan's self-deprecating humor. the best candidates for president campaign with some poetry and optimism as well as policy grit and personal toughness. it's a balance, and from

watching him, and we have, i'm not seeing it. i'm not seeing the optimism. i'm not seeing the empathy, the things that hold with people. >> i think that's the challenge for him. >> yeah. >> moving forward. again, the world that he's grown up in politically has been an extraordinarily negative world in the republican party. it's all about, you know, who -- a lot of snowflakes there. a lot of people being triggered. everybody is a victim in the republican party. donald trump is constantly being victimized. they're always whining and whimpering about something going on. they attacked the united states military. they attack our intel agencies. they attack law enforcement agencies. they support the beating up of cops at the capitol. they support the defunding of the fbi. so a lot of negativity. that's what they've been defined by.

the question is, can they move this to a more positive, hopeful, optimistic approach? because, again, let's be clear here, the argument in 2017 was, yeah, but being a jerk like donald trump worked. >> right. >> he won in '16. they lost in '17. in '18, they go, "yeah, but being a jerk like donald trump still won." then they lost. in 2019, they're still thinking, "well, maybe we need to be bigger jerks." they lost southern governorships. i'm being dead serious here. i'm trying to actually help people who want to be positive. in 2020, that negativity lost again. '21, lost again. '22, lost again. look at the kansas referendum in '23. you look at what happened up in wisconsin in the judges' race. a massive landslide.

that should have been tight. it was double digits. claire mccaskill, i just -- it gets kind of old trying to tell my former party, you should try to actually add supporters. you should try to be more positive. you should stop whining. you should stop acting like snowflakes. you should stop being triggered by everything, and talk positively. like you used to do when you won 49 states. really quickly, i always remember what peggy noonan told us about reagan. reagan would get her speeches. if she wrote, "we will not do such and such," ronald reagan would say, "no, that's too negative," and he'd change it to, "we shall do this." everything was turned to be positive, outward facing, to bring as many people in as possible. that's one of the reasons he won 49 states and one of the reasons trump republicans lost eight years in a row.

>> no, the trump republican party is based on grievance and victimhood, and that's it. there is no positive. >> yes. >> but i have to tell ya, this rollout, i don't -- i disagree with everyone who says this is not going to stay with desantis. first of all, it shows incredibly poor judgment. who decides to not have a visual when you're running for president of the united states? who decides that? visuals matter. how people see you matter. you can't think president in broad strokes. number one, that was a stupid idea. number two, who does it with somebody who has a bigger ego than you have? why would you share the rollout with a narcissistic guy like elon musk? number three -- >> i don't get that. >> -- why would you stay on defense? even when they finally got on, he was on defense. he tried to say he wasn't banning books.

yeah, he is. he claims he never closed down florida. yeah, he did. they closed florida for a while. so it is -- it's really interesting to me that this shows such poor judgment. and what is the president's number one job? the president's number one job is to avoid a risk that would hurt the american people. risk avoidance is a really important thing, and they couldn't avoid risk avoidance when announcing they were running for president. i think this is going to stay with him. i think it shows extremely poor judgment on the part of his campaign, and i don't think it gets much better from here. i really don't. >> you know, jen, i'll just say for myself, i'm trying not to overemphasize the first hour, the glitches, all the problems, because, again, we all know how long campaigns are. but following up on what claire said, one of the reasons why i

always said the most important day is your announcement and the -- or one of your two most important date it is the announcement, the other is when the votes are counted. one of the reasons i say that is because everything that we do in that opening speech, you know, everything we do on that opening day is used throughout the campaign to show excitement and to show support and show the images. ronald reagan in front of the statue of liberty. barack obama in front of the illinois statehouse. i mean, you see those images not only throughout the campaign but throughout history. i will say, short of him getting two dixie cups in tallahassee, in the south end of tallahassee and talking through two dixie cups with a string attached, this was about as awkward of a launch as he could have done. >> yeah. the -- it was a missed opportunity, right? you can't -- >> missed opportunity, exactly. >> he could have had a glorious photo. he could have announced himself in a way that was welcoming to

all of america. but, you know, why did he do all the things claire laid out? because he wanted to own the libs. that is what he is doing. i don't really get the strategy. because there are a lot of republicans that are open to voting for somebody other than trump. >> right. >> but that's not what he's going for. you know, his record is ultra maga. >> ultra. >> ultra maga in florida. doing this with elon musk, that is the most maga move ever. you know, so he is trying to get trump's base. you know, like, who is more trump's base than marjorie taylor greene, right? she's not supporting ron desantis. i'm sure she loves everything he is doing. she's supporting trump. >> mm-hmm. >> so, you know, it seems, what's the strategy? i think the strategy is there's going to be an indictment pileup. >> right. >> i think that's what he thinks. they are doing -- not only are they not doing anything to reach out to moderate republicans or,

you know, independent voters, if you want to be the general election nominee, if you want to win in the general election, they're going out of their way to alienate independent voters and moderate republicans. they're doing everything they can to show they are the ultra maga. jeff rose said this in "the new york times," that the progressive left is an existential threat to the republican primary base, and we're better than trump. something nobody else has done, they're trying to attack trump from the right. >> issue after issue. >> i know it's primary politics, but reverend al, on top of that, you can't really wrap positivity, empathy and authenticity around make america more like florida with a six-week abortion ban and other legislation that is just cruel. >> that is very cruel and very offensive. >> offensive. >> to most americans. i mean, he has managed in florida to alienate women, blacks, lgbtq, latinos, all at

the same time. he says, now, let me nationalize this. when you look at the -- >> that's his record. >> that's right. that's his record that he is running on. >> yeah. >> i'm selling that to you, how offensive i can be. then, i'm also going to show you incompetence by having a launch that didn't launch. and the reason that i don't think that it is going to just be a one-day event is not like desantis is going to change who he is overnight. and his staff, whoever helped him dream up this failure is still running his campaign. they're still the ones that will find a way to fail going forward. if i was getting ready to launch in the same week that tim scott had this big, good launch, i would have these dodos decide how i'm going to do this? i mean, these dodos are still in charge. imagine them in the oval office,

and we're facing a crisis. >> tim scott so far is the only one to offer any trace of optimism -- >> yeah. >> -- about the campaign. he's the alternative there. we'll see how he does. let's bring into the conversation democratic governor wes moore, member of the biden/harris 2024 campaign national advisory board. governor, great to see you this morning. we want to talk about what's going on in the state of maryland a bit, too. you are, as i said, here on behalf of the biden campaign. what was your reaction to what you saw last year, and how much of a threat do the white house and the president view ron desantis to be? >> truthfully, i didn't watch the launch. it doesn't sound like it went too well. but i think part of the challenge is not just a style question, right. >> it is a substance question. because governor desantis is asking people to believe in the florida model. well, what the florida model is, it is getting into fights with

your largest employer and having some of your largest corporate partners within the state then deciding they are going to pull billion dollar projects from your state. the florida model is injecting politics into a decision that should be between a woman and her doctor. that the florida model is deciding that our children should not be reading books like "the bluest eye" and "beloved," that our children shouldn't have access to people like hank aaron and roberto clemente. teachers should have the audacity to show a disney movie that features a gay character. there is a style challenge and also a substance challenge. i know here in maryland, people are going to reject the florida model has something we'd want to incorporate into our lives. >> good morning. when i speak to biden campaign

officials, many of them view that florida is still the favorite right now. even if trump isn't the nominee, do you believe they'll be effective, to paint other republicans, specifically desantis, as a maga disciple, there is a through line there. desantis will say, "look, i'm not trump. i didn't do these other things. i give you the policy without the baggage." make the argument for the democrats. >> i think the argument is that we should focus on the things we're actually getting done. i know when i decided to run for governor here in maryland, we ran with our north star, saying we were going to create pathways for wages, work and wealth for all marylanders, not just some. when you look what happened in the record that the biden administration has add, in partnership with us where, just for the state of maryland, we've been able to activate and deploy

upwards of $1.9 billion because of the infrastructure act, to go towards our roads and bridges and mass transit projects. in my first weeks of office, we had the president here in maryland, where we were announcing a project for the frederick douglass tunnel that will be responsible for upwards of 30,000 jobs here in the state of maryland. right now in maryland, we have a historic, historically low unemployment rate. so when we talk about pathways for work, wages and wealth, when we talk about economic growth and get away from the culture challenges, i think the biden administration has a very strong argument to make. i can tell you now as the governor of one of the states, having him as a partner has mattered in our ability to move as fast as we are as a state. >> governor, al sharpton. one of the things we need to see from the biden/harris team for '24 is how you excite and deliver your base voters out.

clearly, there's been those who say there's not enough excitement. today, three years ago today, george floyd was killed in minneapolis. i remember how joe biden, who was just running, came to minneapolis. i was in the room when he met with the family. he's really made strides to bring americans together and to deliver on some of the promises. we couldn't get the george floyd bill through the senate. he did an executive order. he's done other things. you talk about infrastructure that's helped maryland. he's also made sure that a lot of that went in communities that had been neglected before. how are you going to exercise the base with the campaign, to say, as we try to unite americans, we've kept our promises and tried to deliver for blacks, for latinos, for people that had been left out of

what was going on, out of washington, particularly under the four years of donald trump. >> it's so true, reverend. and i think the thing we're going to have to do is also be able to articulate that so much of the progress we've been able to see on the state level has been because we had strong partnerships on the federal side. the reason that we've been able to do things like both energize a base while not alienating everyone else is you're seeing how these actions are actually working for everybody. and being intentional about it. i look at what's happening now with the conversations around book banning as one example. where we have a party that's literally deciding that the way that you are going to gain market share is by having a significant portion of the population not understand their history. i was down at morehouse this

weekend giving the commencement address. my point to the graduates was that our history is our strength strength. when you know what you've come from, you know nothing in front of you can stop you. as rob belton said, when i discover my history, i then will be free. and so the ability for us to show that the economic growth that we have been able to have, that the fact that so many challenges we are seeing within our community, that we can have a unique ability to push forward economically, to create safer communities, to create institutions and higher education that are teaching young people not just about how to be employees but employers, that these are all things that are happening and possible because we are also going to be a society that honors history, that honors those that came before us, and knows that our strength comes from those who built up the foundation we're standing on currently. >> governor, a week from today, treasury secretary janet yellen says the united states government will lose the ability to pay its bills if there's not

a deal on this debt ceiling crisis that is looming now on the horizon. it's talked about in political terms a lot, abstract probably to a lot of regular americans. you are one of the leaders, and leaders like you will have to deal with this if something happens. what would be the effects of a fallout? >> it'd be catastrophic for this reason. when people talk about, what are the things about the job that are most complicated? in the state of maryland, just in our first months of being governor, we've been able to do things like make maryland the first state that puts a pathway toward free dental and health care for all members of the national guard. we made maryland the first to offer a service year option to high school graduates. we're moving fast. the thing that keeps me up most at night are things we don't

have control over. that's things like, is washington willing to pay its bills for charges it's already made? we've got to de-politicize this because this is not political. this is purely economic. what it's going to mean for a state like maryland if we allow ourselves to go into default, to allow ourselves to show we're not trustworthy to pay our bills, is things like tens of thousands of veterans in the state of maryland will lose access to medical care. it does mean things like economic growth that we've been able to show in the state of maryland, that we've been a stagnant economy the last eight years and we've had measurements of growth. in the first five months, that kind of growth is going to stop because it is going to decrease things like access to capital. it is going to decrease things like the opportunity for low and moderate income communities to be able to gain access to banking facilities. so this is a real challenge that we are going to have to deal with because, in washington, things continue to be

politicized. we've got to depoliticize this issue and make sure we're focusing on the people of our states. we as governors are taking on the brunt of the fact we have parties that are not able to come to a conclusion. >> all right. democratic governor of maryland, wes moore, as always, we love having ya. thank you so much for being here today. >> great seeing you all. willie, i don't know if you saw clips, willie, of his commencement address at moremouse. it was moving. >> yes. >> i did a commencement at the university college of law, a little less inspiring to, i like purple, sort of the summary of it. >> that was a metaphor, or was it literal? >> no, it's literal. i like purple. but they gave both mika and me florida gator shirts. >> i love my gator shirt. >> and the dean said, "we give this to you to thank you for leaving gainesville.

because since you have gone, our rating as a law school, we've now jumped in the top ten of public law schools." i said, "this is great, when did it start?" "about 1991." i said, "interesting, that's the year after i left." >> applications through the roof from '91 forward, a steady mika, did you learn the -- >> i did, yes. i love the top they gave me. >> sweetie, they're jerseys. >> you can't call it a top. >> pretty top, i love it. it's a v-neck. >> was it -- >> i love a v-neck. >> of course, they're playing speaker, so it's number one. they gave me an orange and gave her a blue. >> i love it. >> incredible gator colors, names on the back. >> i'll wear it next week. >> it was incredible going back there. it was a wonderful experience.

i'll tell ya, you know, the kids -- i'm so old now -- but the students are, i mean, it's extraordinary. they're the ones now who are going to go out. they're protecting democracy, american democracy. they're the ones who are the guardians of the rule of law. it's just so inspiring to see them all there. yeah, it was a lot of fun. >> really, when you think about it. >> they are the first responders. i think they are going to do extraordinarily well, despite the fact i spoke at their graduation. >> oh, it was so good. still ahead on "morning joe," dnc chair harrison says ron desantis has pushed an extreme agenda, pushing freedoms away from floridians. what the candidacy means for the 2024 race. plus, quote, what josh hawley and the right get wrong about manhood. we'll bring in the author of

that piece. also ahead, my conversation with white house domestic policy adviser susan rice, who is stepping down from her post tomorrow. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ live your best day, every day with the power of the gelflex grid. sleep better. live purple. she found it. the feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. sotyktu is the first-of-its-kind, once-daily pill for moderate-to-severe plaque psoriasis for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding your back... is back. or finding psoriasis can't deny the splendor of these thighs.

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the deconstruction of america begins with and depends on the deconstruction of american men. the left wanted to define traditional masculinity as toxic. they want to define masculine virtues, courage, independence and assertiveness, as a danger to society. this is an effort that the left has been at for years now, and they have had alarming success. >> that's republican senator josh hawley discussing the left's so-called attacks on masculinity during a speech back in 2021. that fight over manhood has become a key focus for hawley, as he and other republicans seem

to be courting the support of disillusioned men. joining us now, editor at "the washington monthly," will norris. will, you take a look at senator hawley's version of masculinity in a piece titled "what josh hawley and the right get wrong about manhood." you say, republicans like hawley are confronting a genuine social problem, but they're using it to promote their careers, to bring disillusioned, young men into the party's fold in fundamentally harmful ways. they're misdiagnosing what is causing the ills of men and boys. spoiler alert, it's not feminism. and they're wooing those hurting through a message of resentment. the reception on the left to hawley's masculinity crusade has been predictable. jeers, sneers but little appreciation for a real social problem.

many young men are hurting, women too often face misogyny, discrimination and violence. acknowledging the woes of one group doesn't diminish the suffering of another. by refusing to show how they're delivering for men the way they boast of delivering for women or minorities, democrats are blowing it. they're failing to expose the fraudulence of the right and leaving votes on the table. joe, this whole manhood thing has been an interesting tactic. >> well, it has. there's a reason why politicians are talking about it, at least politicians on the right. because by one measurement after another, young men actually are in a state of crisis. as will points out, it's only the republicans right now that seem to notice this. so, will, let's talk about how republicans, not just republicans, but also what i see all the time when i go online.

i've got three boys. varying ages. i've kind of seen this moving. you know, the message from these people start out fairly positive, which is, you know, get out of your rooms. get off of your screens. get outside. exercise, make something of yourself. that's the first part of the message. and anybody that has seen what's happened to boys, young men over the past 15 years, would say, great message. but then it turns dark to misogyny and bigotry. talk about, politically, why people like steve bannon have identified this group and are trying to push them in a more radical direction. >> yeah, well, thank you so much for having me on today. i think this tendency we're seeing among hawley and j.d. vance and marjorie taylor greene and some of the other figures on the right-wing fringe of the

party, to sort of mobilize misogyny this way really did start in its sort of current permutation with the 2016 trump campaign. steve bannon was -- he really pioneered that strategy of sort of going after -- he used the tools of cambridge analytica to attract them to his cause, the trump cause. other republicans since that campaign, like hawley, identified that as a winning strategy. >> reverend al, i'm going to go to you. i know you have a question for will, but this is something that will points out. the democrats shouldn't just leave to people like josh hawley and steve bannon, the democrats -- you can see two

crises at once, right? if you talk about the crisis of manhood, if you talk about the crisis of young boys, the crisis of young men, as you have done for so many years, rev, that doesn't mean women aren't facing misogyny. that doesn't mean women aren't facing their own challenges either. there's been almost this zero-sum game. if you talk about men, then you're supporting toxic masculinity. into this void have some people like hawley and people like bannon. there is a massive crisis among young men. you look at the numbers. it seems to be growing by the year. what are some effective ways for people other than these far-right political profiteers, what are some of the ways to help young men? >> i think the first thing you have to do is not ignore the

issue. address young men and say, "we understand the issue. we understand what you're facing. we understand the crisis you're facing." and we have to deal with that as we fight for rights for women against misogyny and homophobia and the rest. i think that a lot of what they've been able to do, the bannons of the world, hawley and others, is the fact that they even addressed them. it attracts them because they're feeling ignored. i'm talking about young men. i think any time you create a vacuum, whoever fills it benefits from it. that's what i wanted to ask you. because, from your piece, i think that hawley and them, whether or not the young men politically or idealogically agree with them at first, they feel they're being embraced by them. >> right. >> is that part of what you're seeing? democrats and the left have not openly been able to say that, as

we are addressing, and rightfully so, the stark neglect of women and gays and others, that we also are not forgetting that we have our own young men, our sons, our nephews in crisis. >> the right has dominated this conversation. and i think that's a huge mistake on the part of the left. they have really struggled to put forward a positive message about masculinity in recent years. i actually think that democrats have a really compelling message if they choose to tell it. which is that they're the party that can actually deliver on some of the programs and changes in society that would help men who are struggling. unlike republicans, this is the party more likely to spend on legislation, that will increase, you know, job programs and improve education for men.

i think one really compelling example of that was the 2021 infrastructure bill. >> right. >> which the majority of jobs that bill created went to men. that's not something you ever heard democrats talk about, and i think that's a real mistake. again, it's not a zero sum game. the left can be supporting minorities, can be supporting women, and also giving a positive and inclusive message to young men. >> for sure. >> will, you kind of get at this in the piece, but you talk to parents right now, democrats, progressives even, they may not say it out loud, but in private, the boys are hearing in culture that by the nature of their gender, they are toxic. i am bad. i am toxic because i was born the way i am. they'd like change and move away from that. what is, as you say, how do the democrats handle this question better? >> yeah, i think that cultural

dimension is really the place to start. i think we need to do away with this idea -- and i'm not the only one who thinks this -- gender scholars like richard reeves at the brookings institute and others i've talked to really feel that the concept of toxic masculinity is a mistake. it's not something we should be saying. we shouldn't be treating young men as though they're innate nature is a problem. i think that's really the place to start, changing the conversation about masculinity. >> claire mccaskill, your take on this and how democrats could do better in responding? >> well, first of all, do i have to? you know, i mean, it's hawley, right? it's incredibly painful for me. >> yeah. >> sorry, claire. >> yeah, i just got to tell ya that i think -- i think, first

of all, this piece was very thoughtful and nuanced, and i recommend it to everyone. i read it yesterday, and i think you did a great job framing this issue. i certainly agree that the democrats need to quit doing to young men what we talk so much about doing to women. that is, somehow, dismissing that who they are and how they are is somehow a problem. this really is about walking the walk of inclusivity but making sure that we are accountable for the joe rogans of the world. i mean, i have a nephew who kind of lost his way because he got into the algorithms of joe rogan. all of a sudden, he is defensive and not as open to having a broad view of the world because he feels like nobody gets him except these guys who are railing against the democrats

because they don't get masculinity and they don't understand that it's okay. manhood is okay. there is nothing wrong with being a masculine man. so i certainly agree with that. but josh hawley is such a fraud and a foolish guy, it's hard for me to spend much time on him. >> well, i mean, that's actually the whole purpose of this article and also of this segment, mika, which is, don't cede the field to josh hawley. >> right. >> don't do that by saying that a young man is toxic because he's a young man. don't say that he's born with the sins of thousands of years of other men because he is a young man. i mean, don't say that masculinity is a bad thing, that it is automatically toxic. i mean, it's just -- it's

been -- and, again, if people don't want to do it for the right reason, and if people are so messed up in their head that they don't think they can worry about young women and young men at the same time, well, then do it for cynical purposes. because you're giving over an entire generation of young men to the likes of josh hawley and steve bannon. mika, we've seen the numbers. you and i have talked about it a lot. the numbers are so frightening. 60%, a recent pew study showed 60% of young men are single. that's twice the rate of young women. you look at the graduation rates from high school. you look at the graduation rates from college. >> yeah. >> young men falling off a cliff. they are disillusioned. they are more isolated than ever before. and this is what powers

extremism. i'll take it a step further. this is what -- this is what fuels fascism ultimately. so, why not engage everybody? why not, as will's article says in a very thoughtful way, prove that we can do two things at once? that's something right now we're not doing. people have been afraid to say what claire just said, that masculinity is not bad. manhood is not bad. >> correct. >> you couple it with compassion instead of misogyny. you couple it with love instead of bigotry. suddenly, good things start happening. but that message needs to get to those isolated, young men who are, right now, on the internet looking for a community. they'll take any community that they can get.

if the alternative is being isolated and alone in their apartments. >> that is so well put. editor at "the washington monthly," will norris, thank you for writing this piece. really appreciate it. >> thanks, will. >> thanks for having me. >> nice to have you. coming up, ahead of monday's memorial day holiday, the annual celebration of the u.s. navy, marine corps and coast guard is under way here in new york city. up next, two commanding officers will join the table with a look at the fleet week festive it is. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. i think this is it guys? when the martins booked their vrbo vacation home, they really weren't looking for much: a patch of grass for bruno, a pool for first-timers, don't worry, i've got you. and time with each other. and when they needed support, someone was right there.

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service members will be here through memorial day to celebrate the nation's sea services and one of our favorite traditions here in new york city. joining us is lieutenant general brian kavanaugh and colonel karen fitzgerald. good morning to you both. we are glad you are. so glad everybody is here. this is one of the great weeks of the year in new york city. for people who have never experienced this, don't live in new york or haven't visited during fleet week, what goes on? >> these are done across the country. new york is the 35th year that they have done this. you showed the parade of ships that come in. there's 14 ships, we have submarines, destroyers, amphibious war ships, open to the public for touring. you have the canadians, uk, italians are here as well. our allies and partners are represented. there's a lot of activities

going on through the week. anybody searches navy fleet week, you can see all the activities open to the public. >> talk to us about the importance of allies and unity right now, particularly as the united states and other countries are doing their best to support ukraine in a time of war. >> we are here to celebrate the sea services and our allies are a huge contributor to maritime power and presence. >> this is training, but also really to celebrate and boost morale. >> this week is about the community. getting out so that the new yorkers can come see the marine, sailors and coast guard personnel. i love being around the people. we want the community to come out and see us. just learn about what the service members are doing for them.

>> same question for you but also recruitment. how is recruitment in terms of numbers? >> i don't have the numbers. our marines and sailors are engaging with the public. they are telling our story, who we are, what we do, what we bring to the table and why we serve. >> there are some incredibly -- i'm going to put it in layman's terms -- cool ships steaming into the harbor. you look out there and you can't believe what you are looking at. what are some of the ships that will be here when people come down to check it out? >> "uss wasp" is here. that's the amphibious warship. on that vessel we have the marines and aircraft. some ospreys. there's a lot of things for folks to see. >> there's some fun stuff. there's some performances in times square by the military

bands and such, but also some moments of remembrance. there's always a september 11th connection in addition to, of course, memorial day itself. tell us more about what we will see. >> it started off yesterday as the parade of ships rendered honors as they were going by the memorial for 9/11. after this, we will do the freedom run, which is the highlight for a lot of the marines and sailors, as we run and go to the memorial. >> thank you both very much. we really appreciate fleet week and everybody who serves. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you for your service. we are looking back at the life and career of tina turner. a member of the wyoming republican party joins us to discuss the rise of christian nationalism and the harm it has done to her faith and her state. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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we had a huge audience. it was the biggest they ever had. it did break the twitter space. we are really excited with the enthusiasm. ultimately, it's about the future of our country. >> look, optics matter. you have one choice -- chance really to make that visual choice, that iconic moment, to sort of set the narrative. i think if you look back at trump or barack obama in springfield, we are still talking seven years later about donald trump coming down the staircases. i think this felt like an av club podcast. it wasn't befitting a governor of florida. i don't know why there was no visual image. this isn't 1934.

>> i felt like it was walton's mountain. sam and i were texting. tell me when it's working. she's like, i'm not on. i'm kicked off. tommy is like, i'm on. it was the keystone cops. we couldn't figure it out. >> a lot of people weren't able to figure it out. i don't know. willie, it really -- you didn't have the visuals. it was awkward. there's a lot of glitching. they didn't break twitter. twitter was apparently broken. i guess that's what happens when you have the firings they have had there for quite some time. i think the best way to look at this is the opportunity that was lost, the ability to set up -- again, if you are on the left, to set up that moment of barack obama in front of the statehouse, if you are on the right, ronald reagan in front of the statue of liberty or, yes,

even donald trump going down the escalator. people have brought that up already today. that was a moment. he still references back to it. here, again, this is something that could turn into a metaphor for a deeply dysfunctional campaign if they're not careful. >> we know it didn't go well when barack obama's launch is referenced favorably on fox news. >> such a good point. >> you are right. this was the moment. up until now, governor desantis has been an idea for republicans, a theory that there will be an alternative to donald trump, someone who has run his state well, popular in a big state. let's see what he looks like as a candidate. this was the first look. not a look, a listen, on twitter. it didn't go well. we have been talking about it all morning. some people believe it has more legs than others. maybe this passes as a moment. but it certainly, no matter the spin you are getting from the desantis campaign, was not the launch that they hoped for. >> not at all.

gabe gutierrez has more on last night's glitchy announcement from florida governor ron desantis. >> i'm ron desantis. i'm running for president. >> reporter: this morning, a very rocky rollout. governor ron desantis' team trying to recover after a glitchy start. >> sorry. we have so many people that i think we are kind of melting the servers. >> reporter: desantis claiming he broke the internet. the audio only chat with elon musk plagued by technical troubles. >> there's so many people. it's unfortunate. >> reporter: frustration heard on hot mikes. >> keep crashing? >> reporter: the event delayed for half an hour. >> i am running for president of the united states to lead our great american comeback. >> reporter: desantis brushing it off.

>> it did break the twitter space. we're really excited with the enthusiasm. >> reporter: arguing he is the best choice to take on president biden. >> you gotta be able to win, and then when you get in office, you have to be able to deliver results. >> reporter: his critics could hardly contain their delight, especially former president trump, slamming the twitter announcement as a disaster, even president biden tweeting a fund-raising page, dryly pointing out, this link works. with the race in its infancy, desantis trailed trump, the gop frontrunner by more than 25 points in many polls. desantis is well ahead of any other potential challengers for now. >> he is an echo of trump. i think that's not what the american people want to see. >> reporter: in miami, a group of protesters gathered outside a desantis fund-raising meeting. we spoke with one of his donors who was in the room with other supporters as the glitches unfolded. because of the glitches, should

he have stuck with a more traditional announcement? >> i don't think so. it's who governor desantis is. he is willing to try new things. he is not going to do the cookie cutter approach. >> that's who he is, glitchy? >> you want to try something new. you want to be a bold and effective leader and try something that actually works. there's no spinning it. we will see what happens. he will be judged for what happens over the next few weeks, what happens over the next several months. it's a long time to go. it was a disaster of a launch, no doubt about that. it's interesting, at the beginning of the campaign video, he called himself ron de-santis. he said i'm ron de-santis. they suggest his wife tried to change it to desantis, which is how we have been doing it over the past few years. how fascinating, he went back to

the ron de-santis pronunciation. >> everything about his run seems like a missed opportunity. you think of bobs for jobs, that was a great campaign. he can't be ron desantis for jobs with his big fight with disney and them moving out. by the way, what a missed opportunity on disney. he and his wife got married there. that could be such a love story for jobs and the growth that disney was going to bring to florida canceled. there's just -- everything he does seems to be negative. >> he doesn't have any range. there's no calibration. >> no touch. >> there's no touch. there's no calibration with the guy. he could have been an effective governor of florida of be doing well with the republican voters that want to move on from trump.

instead, he just double, triple, quadrupled down on a very mean-spirited, pretty nasty maga agenda that i don't think -- six week abortion ban. >> what are you doing? >> i think i could argue donald trump is more electable than ron desantis when you support a six week abortion ban. he is the electable one, that alone. the totality of the nastiness of that maga agenda, marginalizing kids, putting migrants -- we should -- the border is a national problem. all of us -- >> all of us agree. >> all of us should partake in dealing with that. but putting migrants on a bus to martha's vineyard? it's mean. he has that one maga speed. other than trump topping -- collapsing is better, which we have seen no sign of that, even with an indictment.

>> democrats have zeroed in on the book banning as another area to go after de-santis. he has the meanness without charisma. doing this glitchy-filled twitter launch is not going to make the argument go away that he has trouble connecting with voters. he didn't have an opportunity to talk to voters. questions about his political skills will persist. >> that was a weird decision. >> the recorded video reads stilted and awkward. there's a lack of charisma there. we will find out if that matters in the next few months. joining us now, the chairman of the democratic national committee. i'm sure you were monitoring if you didn't listen in yourself. >> go, ron, go. >> keep on truckin'. >> that was chaotic. it was disastrous. the only thing that it really did was it hid or postponed

america learning the extremism that is ron desantis. this is a very small man who is thin-skinned, doesn't like the media, doesn't get along well with others. he is just extreme. you think about it, this was one of the big members of the freedom caucus, but he is the antithesis of freedom. it's just really sad to see. i'm going to have my popcorn for that first rnc debate in august. >> yeah. >> it's going to be a hot mess. >> donald trump may not show up. we will see how that goes. as democrats think about this presidential election, you have all kinds of races you are concerned about down ballot, i understand. but is it -- is the calculation that donald trump remains the better candidate to run against that you have a better shot at beating him than ran desantis or do you watch last night and go, maybe he is the better match for

us? >> they are all bad. they are all extreme. that's the thing. you look at all of the major issues that people care about, you look about abortion, they believe in a national abortion ban. >> guns. >> again, they side with the nra over families and our kids. we look at the banning of books. this is america. the republican party -- i grew up under the ronald reagan republican party. they surrounded themselves in the american flag. part of america is freedom, the freedom to speak, the freedom of choice. these guys are everything against freedom. it's sad to see where the republican party has come. guess what? we have a leader in joe biden who believes in freedom, who believes that we should have more rights instead of less. i don't want to go back to a day where my kids have less freedom than their grandparents did. >> i want to ask you about joe

biden as a candidate. claire, your take on ron de-santis' rollout and him as a candidate. >> first of all, we can't figure out how to pronounce his name. >> i'm so confused. is that how you say it? >> is that a good rollout? by the way, his donors saying, this is a guy who does things differently and boldly. i mean, 700,000 people on a radio -- essentially a radio feed is not a lot of people. you can get way more than 700,000 people just with a visual on fox even or even on any network you could get more than that. this is really a failure of his campaign. ultimately, ron de-santis, not figuring out that what you have to do is make a good first

impression. i don't think he figured out that -- who is going to elect him president is not maga. who is going to elect him are americans who don't know him, who need to get a sense he can lift the country, that he could unite the country. joe biden gets that in his bones. i don't think ron desantis has it anywhere in his makeup to unite or inspire anybody. >> yeah. it's very interesting, jen, that ron desantis could have seen this coming. i remember when you -- a couple days ago we were texting. when you first heard news of this, you said, do you hear ron de-santis is going to be launching with elon musk? >> she didn't say it that way. >> he says it that way. you said, this is going to be a disaster. he doesn't get it. there were people who saw this

coming. it's not like you can say, ron de-santis tried do this but how could he have seen this coming? if you look at your text and what other people have been saying out there, ron de-santis should have seen this coming a long way off. >> i said -- i think i said, the guy does not get nuance. >> right. >> what can i do that will alienate democrats the most? let me go on twitter, now that elon musk owns, democrats don't seem to like as much. let me do it with elon musk, who is probably not a very popular person, not just among democrats but among the populous. he doesn't -- there's not any -- there's not any range. it opens an opportunity for biden. we have this primary. mr. chairman, how do you see -- what do you see the party doing in these months while the republicans are fighting amongst themselves? is it an opportunity to do

contrast? is it an opportunity to do accomplishments? how do you use this time? >> it's all of the above. we will definitely paint the contrast. you think about what joe biden has done and accomplished in these few years as president. i would go on to say, he has been the most accomplished president in my lifetime, particularly given the fact that he had a 50/50 senate on a good day and less than a five-seat majority in the house. we will contrast all of those accomplishments. just things from -- he appointed more black women to the appellate courts than all presidents combined. he has tremendous accomplishments. we will put those out there. we will build the infrastructure. we announced a historic accomplishment, an agreement with all 50 states to raise money. more money for joe biden to come in for his presidential. we will bank that. at the same time, we are going to paint the republican party as the extreme party in this country. they are the anti-freedom,

anti-american democracy party. we're going to have a good time doing that. >> joe biden, the big argument people are making is about his age. what are you all prepared to say? i don't like it. i personally think his age is just fine. he is doing just fine. i think he is underestimated. that seems to me to be a repetitive problem that joe biden doesn't have. people were talking about it. >> i was raised by my grandparents. one thing i know that with age comes wisdom. i can tell you, i watched the 2020 election. i don't think any of those candidates that were on the stage could have accomplished what joe biden has accomplished in these two years. he was able to do it because he understands washington, d.c., he understood the players. but he understood how to navigate, even with the majorit. people go to the polls for a president who accomplishes

stuff. not because you are young or anything else. jim clyburn told me when i was bellyaching about old and young, older folks step aside and let younger folks come up. he said to me, let me ask you a question. what would you prefer? an old thurgood marshall or a young clarence thomas. enough said. >> okay. thank you very much. great to see you. following the january 6 insurrection, liz cheney put her career on the line to stand up against donald trump's attack on democracy. in breaking with her party, cheney lost the support of her gop colleagues and eventually her state's voters, too. she's not the only wyomingite caught in this way.

in a new essay entitled what christian nationalism has done to my state and my faith is a sin, wyoming republican voter susan stubson writes, i am adrift in this unnamed sea, untethered from my faith community and my political party. as i try to reconcile evangelical's endorsements of candidates who thumb their noses at the least of us. christians are called to serve god, to put our faith in a higher power, not in human beings. we are taught not to bow to false idols. yet it's prominent and our foundational principles, humility, kindness and compassion, is in short supply. the author of that piece joins us now. you have talked about this time and time again throughout the rise of trump. what has happened to the

christian, to the vangelical community? how did they fall to the side of their core values? >> we talked about it a good bit. they have been -- many have been radicalized. many of the people that were yelling at me in '98 and '99 says bill clinton needed to be impeached and driven from office and if he didn't that somehow america would collapse because only moral men and women can run washington, well, that's completely changed. i want to ask our guest susan her thoughts. what compelled you to write about this, and where do you see it going? >> good morning, joe. it's been a long time coming. nothing like running a statewide

campaign and really getting out in the state and talking to people to really see what people are thinking about. i first experienced this in 2016 when my husband ran for congress against liz cheney and then in 2020. the things i was hearing on the ground were a little bit of a disconnect from the central tenets of the republican party as well as what i hear in my faith community. the piece was about this continuing drift away from politics and the faith community. i also found that i'm not alone in this and was happy to give voice to folks like me that are sharing in this struggle in the continuing decline of the faith community and the republican party. >> you talk about the faith community, you look at it and you see the numbers continue to decline. i think that's one of the great

ironies that when we get through this period, people are going it see how the numbers have declined and what's happened is so much of what's happened in the evangelical community is a reaction to the '60s and '70s. as tim keller used to say, his idea of being in the vangelical community was to move beyond the pentecostal community that put walls up. he was in an evangelical community at the beginning of his ministry that looked out to the world, that wanted to be a part of the world, not be of the world, but be part of the world and take the walls down and ministry to that world instead of always being reactive and reactionary. yet, that's what happened to the evangelical movement, especially over the past five, six, seven, eight years. >> right. exactly. hence the disconnect.

you are right. we are called to go out into the world and to serve everyone. regardless of what they look like, who they love, where they are from. that's the message that we have been continuously effused with. yet we see this narrowing of who gets to be in, who is allowed to come to church on sunday. that's a concern. >> the bizarre thing is, people actually define faith by who you support politically. read the red letters. they are not there. that's not what jesus did. that's not what jesus' ministry was about. i was talking to a faith leader in the vangelical movement, a faith leader for 25 years, and he said he spends most of his days on the phone with pastors

begging them to stay at their pulpit, begging them to not give up hope, begging them to continue witnessing and being a witness, even if their congregation has turned away from the central focus of the faith. like you said, they focus on idols. it's so fascinating. you talk about the evangelical community. you talk about the political party. most seem to be supporting somebody who is the antithesis of everything jesus said, whether it was blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who are mourning, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, blessed are the pure in heart, blessed are the peacemakers. you can go on and on and on.

it's all about loving others, forgiving others and forgiving yourself. that's just something that right now is so distant from so many people that i knew growing up in the church now. they have completely radically changed from where they were even ten years ago. >> well, if you talk to our political leaders and our faith leaders privately, there's this running theme of lamentation. they share these frustrations, and yet they have a chokehold around their necks either by their congregation or by the voting public and are afraid to call out truth. that's the frustration, joe. that's, i think, born in fear. fear is mentioned 365 times in the bible. there's one for every day.

i think that we see our faith leaders afraid of their flock. i think we have -- see many of our political leaders afraid of their constituents, afraid to speak this very truth. >> that's something -- that's something andy stanley said. instead of talking about jesus christ, instead of talking about the gospels, people were coming up to him angry, debating masks and debating vaccines and debating all of these other things. that became more important to them than their faith in jesus christ. it is bizarre. i still don't understand it. i know you don't either. that's why i thank you so much for writing your guest essay for "the new york times." we greatly appreciate it, susan. it's called "what christian nationalism has done to my state and my faith is a sin." you know, again, let's be very

clear about christian nationalism. it's not bringing your faith into a campaign and letting people know how you feel and believing that there needs to be moral absolutes, grounding what the government does, but when you are focused on just hot button issues and candidates suddenly become your idols instead of your faith, that's when it start devolving into christian nationalism and people start talking about issues that jesus never talked about once in the bible. >> yeah. this incredible piece, really great conversation. still ahead, we are looking back at the extraordinary life and career of tina turner. a true music legend with tributes from fans and fellow musicians pouring in about her legacy. plus, what the outgoing white house domestic policy

advisor is saying about her achievements during her time in the biden administration, the obama administration and the clinton administration. my conversation with susan rice is ahead on "morning joe." before we go to break, it is thursday -- it is thursday, right? i need to know. i need an early sneak peek -- >> tomorrow is friday, memorial day weekend. people hit the road. they tune out. we have to let you know -- >> no tuning out. >> this weekend on "sunday today," my guest, melissa mccarthy. you bet we took a ride around central park. we spent 45 minutes out there. >> is she so nice? >> truly the best. she's in this new version of "the little mermaid." >> i love it. >> it's coming up this weekend. she's the best. one of my all-time favorites, this weekend on nbc "sunday today." we will be right back here on

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♪♪ she was electric on stage, ahead of her time, simply the best, tina turner. talk about her passing. just an icon. >> she was not only ahead of her time, she redefined her time. >> correct. >> what she did to music you couldn't put in words, because tina turner broke through so many barriers in the rock r & b era for women, for blacks and for people recovering from adversity. she very openly took her

suffering and pain in her personal life and showed people how they could overcome and survive and thrive. i think everyone talks about how ike turner, her husband, used to brutalize her. she was very open about that and talked about it. what they don't talk about is that he also came at a time when men could dominate and rule women's careers. she not only got by his abuse, she proved that a woman can come back without the man managing her. >> way better. >> without the man being the front man and packed more auditoriums without ike, who she was supposed to need ike. she proved women don't need a man to become the queen. whether you crown us or not, we will be the queen. in so many ways, tina turner was the ultimate. >> it shows the impact she had. it's front page news on every paper we have in front of us, not just the new york tabloids but above the fold in "the wall

street journal" and on the front page of the "new york times" as well. she had hits with ike turner. won a grammy for "proud mary." in the '80s when she came out with "private dancer," that's when she became an international phenomenon. she won a bunch of grammys. was in poor health and was living in switzerland in the last few years. she's been called the queen of rock and roll. it's hard to argue with that when you think through her career. >> it is. "proud mary" and then it seemed to disappear from the public spotlight a good bit. then 1984 she comes back bigger than ever with "private dancer," "what's love got do with it" then "simply the best." she came back more and more.

what a massive presence in rock history. >> i think you think about that 1984 was a really incredible year for pop culture and for rock and roll. people hark back to that time, think about michael jackson, think about prince and bruce springsteen. they had huge records. they were all over mtv, were huge. she was the fourth. at the time, as inescapable on music television and in arenas across the world, she was as big a star -- not as big as michael jackson but they were the mount rushmore. the u.s. had the olympics that summer. american music triumphed around the world. madonna was in that group, too. she was inspirational in a way that almost no one else was.

because of the feminist -- she was a very early -- in some ways maybe the first woman in rock and roll who seemed to overcome all of -- everything -- ike turner's relationship and the way she was treated by the industry for a long time. the crystallization of every form of misogyny in the music business landed on her head. when she came back, at a time when people were like, she's too old, she will never be back, in the '80s even, it was inspiring and set a certain kind of template for the way a lot of women came later in the '80s and in the '90s. white, black, women, men, she was huge and beloved as any of these people to today. >> no one like her in terms of performance ability. just dynamic. there's no words to describe the

power of her performance. we will have more ahead on the life and legacy of tina turner. coming up, one of our next guests says the gop is escalating its war on ideas. we have the latest. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us

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it is great to have you in your exit interview, so to speak, on the show this morning. susan, you have made history. nobody has served as national security advisor and domestic policy advisor in u.s. history, as well as u.n. are you feeling ready to walk out the door tomorrow? what are your personal feelings about that? >> well, honestly, i have mixed feelings. it's a privilege to serve at the white house and serve president biden and our country. i'm going to miss him and the team. i'm going to miss all my extraordinary colleagues at the domestic policy council and the white house and the cabinet and the administration. i leave gratified and proud of what we have been able to do for the american people. i don't have any immediate plans. i intend to take a rest, see family, travel over the summer. it's a little weird, quite

honestly, to leave a position and not know what i'm doing. i spent eight years in the clinton administration and eight in the obama administration. so this is a good thing for me to do, to open a new chapter. it does come with mixed emotions. >> i can imagine. you mentioned eight years under clinton and eight years under obama and 2 1/2 -- you have been going at it for a long time. to make that change is important, because as you and i know, there's a long runway. i'm excited to see what you do next. i really am. glad to hear that you are taking some time. i'm curious -- i want to go around the world for you and back to the job that you have now. you have the job that my dad had, national security advisor. i'm curious what your thoughts are on, what is the greatest challenge this country is facing? >> obviously, we are facing

unprecedented aggression from a superpower in russia. it's completely unjustified invasion of ukraine, is not only the biggest strategic challenge europe has faced in decades, and obviously the united states as part of nato, but it also does not bode well for how russia will comport itself going forward. we face also a real significant competition with china where we need to balance the opportunities that we have to work together on things that are in our mutual interest while at the same time recognizing that they pose major challenges in many respects and that we have a full-blown competition. those are among the challenges. there are many others that perhaps get less attention on a daily basis, those that cross national boundaries, challenges

related to environment, climate, disease, transnational terrorist organizations that still exist and have to be reckoned with. we face new technology challenges with respect to artificial intelligence. all of these are real issues, and they come at a time when there are pressures on democracies around the world, including here at home. >> exactly. let's talk about here at home. as domestic policy advisor, just what do you put as your proudest accomplishment during your time serving? >> thank you for asking that. i wish i could point to one. let me talk about health care is one where i think we made a difference. under the affordable care act and the expansion of that and the reduction of premiums, we have been able to sign up 9 million new americans for health care coverage under the affordable care act. that's helped bring down the

rate of uninsured people in this country to its lowest level in history of 8%. now somebody can go on the healthcare.gov and sign up for a plan and save on an individual basis about $800 a year. four out of five families can -- or four out of five people can go on healthcare.gov and find a plan that is available to them for less than $10 a month. we have vastly expanded the affordability and availability of health insurance. at the same time, we have reduced prices for prescription drugs for seniors on medicare. we have compelled for the first time pharmaceutical companies to negotiate with medicare to lower prescription drug prices. from prescription drugs to health care costs to our work to expand access to mental health

care, which is an extremely important challenge we face, i'm very proud of what we have been able to do in that space, among others. >> i want to ask you about another issue, and that's guns. i know president biden and this white house has worked to get anything they can get done done on gun safety legislation and also mental health. what's the realm of possible in this arena given that we have mass slaughters of little kids, and they go by and some states are doubling down on their policies and gun sales are going up rather than down? are you losing hope? >> no, i'm not losing hope, because the vast majority of americans agree on a bipartisan basis that it is ridiculous that we do not have universal background checks for guns, that

we can't get a grip on things like assault weapons and high capacity magazines, common sense gun safety reforms that are very, very popular. even among gun owners. what we have is a problem with republicans in congress and in state legislatures that are making policies that are out of step with the vast majority of their constituents. >> the soon to be former white house domestic policy advisor susan rice, thank you very much. congratulations. thank you very much for being on with us this morning. >> thank you so much. good to be with you. thank you for having me. >> take care. we will be right back with more "morning joe."

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welcome back a few minutes before the top of the hour. in 1993, american women earned the right to fly in combat. but the full story of how they were able to break that barrier and change the status quo is largely unknown until now. our next guest retired air force colonel ilene bjorkman is out with a new novel "the fly girls revolt." in it, she shares untold stories of women's fight to fly. she is also a pilot, an

aeronautical engineer. >> there are quite a few books out about a group of women called the wasps from world war ii, a group of about a thousand women who flew civilian airplanes during world war ii. and there's a lot of recent books about women who have flown in combat, but there's really a dearth of books about the women of my generation of the '70s and '80s who kicked open the door. i wanted to get their story out there and make sure the public is aware. >> you look at the first women in the military in world war ii to the final push in the '90s documenting the actions of a band of women who overcame decades of discrimination and fought for their rights against

bureaucrats, anti-feminists and even other women in the military. who are some of the major players who worked to change the status quo? >> the woman who probably had the biggest impact in the beginning was jacqueline cochran back in world war ii. she actually was one of the women who later caused problems for women in the military, but she initially was the one who started the group that later women stood on their shoulders. the biggest player in the '60s was colonel jean holmes, she was a two star general. she fought for women to serve in vietnam. she pushed hard to get women into pilot training and she was a strong advocate throughout the process through the '70s, '80s and into the '90s of getting the door open. there were a lot of other

players behind the scenes. carolyn beecraft and pat schroder had a huge role in getting women into the air force academies and then later opening the door to combat. >> in the first graphic we put up shows that even today just about 6% of u.s. military pilots are women and women only make up about 17.3% of the active military. what do you think it's going to take and what can we learn from the women you have highlighted to change these numbers, to raise them? >> i think the biggest problem is a lot of women just don't see aviation as a viable career. the percentage of women in the military overall isn't bad. it's about 20% in the air force. but the fact that still only about 6% of the pilots are women

shows that women don't see that as a viable career. aviation remains very male centric. women are not introduced to aviation at an early age the way boys are. we found in studies the way to get people interested in aviation is to tell them about it early so they can start preparing to go down that path. >> the book "the fly girls revolt" is out now and more on ilene's story. thank you so much. the 50 over 50 list became so successful, we immediately went global.

there's europe, the middle east, africa and asia coming up. if you want to nominate a woman who is reaching her greatest impact, nominate her for the forbes and know your value 50 over 50 list. nominate yourself if you want to. new reporting from the "washington post" on the deepening radicalization of donald trump. we'll dig into how the former president's positions and rhetoric appear to be growing more confrontational and extreme as he seeks second term. extreme as he seeks second term. oh booking.com, ♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪

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i think in this room we're now up to, wow, over 271,000 people. so this is, i think, totally unprecedented in terms of the people we have participating. twitter is working much better now. i think it crashed because when you multiply a half a million people in a room with over a hundred million followers, it was a scaleability level that was unprecedented. >> we had a huge audience. it was the biggest they'd ever had. it did break the twitter space. we're really excited with the enthusiasm. ultimately it's about the future of our country. >> so that's governor ron desantis touting the number of people who tuned into his troubled and glitchy

presidential announcement yesterday on twitter. of course, the numbers didn't come close to how many people streamed april the giraffe giving birth. >> big one. >> huge. >> also aoc plays a video game on twitch. >> that was important. >> also, buzzfeed drew an audience of 800,000 when they blew up a watermelon. >> you have to watch that. that's like where were you when the red sox beat the yankees. >> i'm confused. who thought this was a good idea? really seriously, were there people saying this is going to be a moment to remember? >> like, for instance, drake playing fortnite, willie. >> who came up with that list? it's a very specific video game

interest and ronaldo recording himself in the sauna. >> it's not even friday. >> drake playing fortnite, of course twice as many people are going to tune into drake playing fortnite as ron desantis announcing he's running for president of the united states. the thing is, it's so strange, if you look at those numbers, if he had even chosen a cable news show, we would have gotten multiples of that. i just wonder, you know, i remember when i first read donald trump's interview with the "washington post" and it was crazy. he kept talking about his hands. he went on and on. i said to mika, this guy is out of his mind. she goes, no, he knows exactly what he's doing. he's talking about his hands so he doesn't have to talk about

the west bank. he's talking about his hands so he doesn't have to talk about quantitative easing. he's talking about his hands because he doesn't know the issues. here with ron desantis -- and i'm not trying to be glib here in the least. if everything i heard from my republican friends in tallahassee is true and everything i've heard from people who have spent time with ron desantis is true, he doesn't really know how to comfortably interact with people. so what better way to launch if that's your weakness, where other people with going to do a lot of talking and it's audio only? i think maybe ron desantis wanted this because he's just not as good interacting with human beings. >> yeah, but how long can that last? you can get away with one

glitchy twitter space introduction, but at some point you have to go out and talk to voters. persuading voters if you want to be the general election candidate who don't see the world quite the way you do or the way you've described florida as this oasis that he's created. there are a lot of people in this country who do not agree with you and you'll need their votes as well. this is definitely not ronald reagan at the statue of liberty in 1980. but this is laughable and amusing at the moment, but he's now got his chance to step out and be a candidate and not just be an idea. he's got to prove it to a wider audience than the people he was perhaps talking to just last night. >> right. people are talking about how much money he has. that only gets you so far. it only got jeb so far. when he got out on the campaign trail, the support all disappeared, the money all

disappeared, the candidacy all disappeared. it's a really good question about what happens moving forward. if the hindenberg were a political launch, it would be like the hindenberg blowing up three or four times. he's got a new day today and new days between now and early next year. this could be a distant memory very soon. >> true. although i'm kind of stuck on a few things. number one, the decision, i don't even get it. what are you owning exactly? and then secondly, i know this seems small, but it would be like joe biden is running for president and he's going to

announce his campaign and he does a campaign ad, like, hi i'm joe boden. i mean, ron dee-santis? >> he changed his name back. >> he's been back and forth? he's waffled on his name? >> the way he pronounces it, he's been back and forth. >> take a look at the evolution of his name. >> i am ron dee-santis. >> this is governor ron dee-santis. this is governor ron desantis, wishing everyone a merry christmas. i want to wish you a hen he's bo

dee-santis. i mean, i d >> let's remember, like prince, man, he just changed his entire name. it just became a symbol! he can do it if he wants to change it. >> i'm reminded of joe thiesman. when he wanted to win the heisman he changed his name. >> we have molly mall, who this week posted a new piece on quote, the desantis project. also with us, special correspondent of vanitast polit podcast" molly mall.

ron desantis wants to make america more like florida. has anyone looked at florida lately? >> i mean, the whole thing is wild stuff. we have book bans, we have don't say gay. >> you can't be a woman in florida. you might die. >> that's right. you can't read about gay people, because that could be dangerous to children. what's not dangerous to children, guns. florida is very into concealed carry. it's just wild. they basically are so emboldened by trumpism, which is not popular in the purple states that you see in texas and florida an escalating war against librarians and teachers and books and ideas and tenured faculty. >> and yet people are moving to

florida. this is the case that desantis makes, is that he is popular. many of these policies, even the controversial ones are popular in florida. a net 1200 people are moving to florida every single day. this is a big part of his case for the presidency is that his success in florida shows in the results he has. >> i would push back on that and say, first of all, he ran against charlie crist. it's not like he ran against a real democratic party, a real candidate. crist had been a republican. those candidates never do well. i would also say when you look at that speech he read on twitter spaces last night in an incredibly boring monotone, which was impressive in the fact that he was able to keep that monotone. >> so many ways. >> he had a lot of things where he's like we have the lowest crime. it turns out if you read the fact check, they've changed the

way they report crime. a lot of his numbers are very favorable in ways that maybe don't completely track. i would just hesitate to take a lot of these ideas on their word. >> sure. you hear this a lot from democrats in florida. it still is the case that if these extreme policies were so enraging to people, you would think they would rise up against them. at least in 2022, they certainly did not. another thing that people often raise is the main reason desantis became so popular really was his handling of covid. that was what 2022 for a lot of florida voters was a referendum on, much more than woke and these cultures wars he started. desantis has read that as a signal of popularity for all of his policies.

>> again, i would push back on that again and i would say, and you saw in the spaces he was like, when the next pandemic comes -- first of all, he believes he did really well with covid. there's really not evidence to support that. it was a once in a lifetime pandemic. it's a sign that people are not having a sane response to this pandemic. i don't think you can make the case that for the next pandemic the guy who maybe opened the schools a little faster was a great candidate. >> i think molly has a great point. >> all the mollys at the table make great points. you're right,he has a 60% approval rating, ron desantis does. now i'm stumbling over his name. that's only gone up, not down

recently. he is popular in his state. he does believe he has something that's transferable nationally. the question answered last night in that announcement is how does he take on the guy that's 30 points ahead of him? he didn't do it, or he did it in very oblique ways. he said i'm going to get rid of jerome powell or christopher wray. that's a shot at donald trump. >> for eight years we've seen various republicans run at the king and miss. they've tried everything. they're tried attacking him frontally. they've tried this implicit contrast yourself in subtle ways. does the electorate really notice that nuance or are they just hearing trump is great over and over again? that's his challenge. i don't think he knows how to do that. i don't think anybody knows what the sort of silver bullet is to separate trump from his voters, because for so long they have been so loyal to him.

i do think the reason desantis had a moment right after the election last november is that there clearly are a lot of republican voters who are open to someone other than trump. you saw them wander away when he looked like such a loser last november, but then they wandered back. that's the thing, he does keep them coming back. >> just a couple things, jonathan lemire on desantis talking about florida being a great launching pad for him and his success in florida and all the people that are moving to florida. people aren't moving to florida because of ron desantis. people were moving to florida before ron desantis. they're moving away from the tri-state area, especially from the upper midwest, high-tax states like illinois and new york. for years and years and years,

donald trump is not going to let him get away with that argument, because it's just not true. also on covid, the only way to look at covid if you want to measure how people do, you've got to look at death rates per capita. at best, florida is in the middle of the pack, at best. i'm looking at a map here. there are so many states that did better than florida, certainly not in the deep south. georgia, alabama, mississippi, south carolina, tennessee, kentucky, west virginia, arkansas, oklahoma, texas, new mexico, arizona. i mean, the overwhelming majority of states that did the worst are the red states. florida is kind of in there,

middle of the pack at best. i don't even know how covid is a great argument for him unless he says, well, we did worse than about half the states and more people died, but we got to open up mcdonald's faster. i don't know that that's going to work. >> it may not. we're in a place with the republican party that facts so often don't matter. he has this mythology that florida was back first even though we know there were waves of deaths that washed over florida, especially that first year or two of the pandemic. he is trying to say this is his success story that he's trying to bring elsewhere in the nation. we have to see whether he can play on the road. that's the thing last night underscores. what kind of retail political skills does he have? we don't know yet. he's doing an iowa event next week. there's new polling out from iowa just in the last hour, he's

down 40 points to donald trump in iowa, which is no even the most trump friendly state, not even close. we're going to see if he breaks out of these safe spaces or twitter spaces if ron desantis is able to connect to voters and make him the best trump alternative. >> final thoughts, what do you make of the republican field as a whole and who do you think the first is going to be to truly break away from donald trump? >> wow. i think desantis is the only credible threat to trump at this point, but we are seeing that a lot of other candidates view his weakness as an opportunity. trump is capitalizing on that as well, encouraging the field to get bigger because he thinks that makes it easier for him to win. this is the moment of truth for desantis. >> i feel like indictments are the greatest threat to donald trump, more indictments potentially. >> remember the last indictment

really he turned that around and ended up being bad for desantis. the un-trumpy lane is getting very crowded. it's hard to imagine there will be someone rising from the ashes. the people i know who are sort of the republican thinkers, more along that line, really like youngkin, but he's not in the race. >> molly ball and molly john-bass. the two mollys. you work well together. i like it. as he works to win the republican party nomination for the third straight election, his rhetoric and positions are becoming even more extreme. we're talking about donald trump. that's according to a new "washington post" analysis, which reviewed eight years of the former president's comments

so voters can see the differences. joining us now, the authors of that piece, "washington post" reporter isaac arnsdorf. one example is the infamous "access hollywood" take back in 2016. what are some other examples? >> we looked at a number of issues, january 6th, immigration, both rhetorical and policy oriented. it's one of these things where it happens gradually over a number of yeayears, so you migh not notice it when it's happening. but if you look at him talking about the same issue and compare that across the years, it's really striking what you notice how he has dug in and doubled down, starting with positions that have been divisive and controversial and pushing them even further to become more

extreme now that he was in his previous campaigns. >> let's look at one of these contrasts you're writing about. this is the "access hollywood" tape. what then-candidate donald trump said about it in 2016 and what he said about it just this month. >> you bragged up sexual assaulted women, do you understand that? >> no, i didn't say that at all. i don't think you understood what was said. this was locker room talk. i'm not proud of it. i apologized to my family. i apologize to the american people. certainly i'm not proud of it, but this is locker room talk. >> you defended the comment that you made in that tape about being able to grab women how you want. do you stand by those comments? >> i said if you're famous and rich or whatever you said, i said if you're a star, i said women let you. i didn't say you grab. i said women let. you didn't use that word. if you look, women let you.

they said, will you take that back? i said, look, for a number years this is the way it's been. i can take it back if you'd like to, but if you're a famous person, if you're a star, and i'm not referring to myself, i'm saying people that are stars, they tend to do pretty well in a lot of different ways, okay? you would like me to take that back. i can't take it back because it happens to be true. i said it's been true for a million years. >> so you stand by those comments? >> i don't want to lie. a rich and famous person has no advantage over anyone else. well, you do have an advantage. i say fortunately, but that's the way it is. >> you said fortunately or unfortunately. we have a lot of audience questions. >> you watch that contrast as donald trump keeps boring in deeper and says unfortunately or

fortunately men can do that when they're famous. what is the reason for the escalation you write about in his radicalism? is he just unchained and believes he can do whatever he wants? >> there are a few things going on here. one is that he doesn't have the whole apparatus of the white house around him anymore. he's less filtered with just the smaller campaign team. so we're maybe hearing more directly from him than we have in a while. another thing is that there are all these accumulated grievances from his seven years in politics. you're hearing how that intensifies. it started with a witch hunt and gets to be more and more and more. that's a journey that he and his supporters have been on together. you hear the people laughing in the audience at that clip. that really struck me about a lot of these clips, how his supporters are with him on this

trajectory. the last thing i would point out about this is a pattern that he's established of sort of boomeranging, where when he does something that causes a lot of public outrage, he will sometimes walk it back and try to smooth it over, but he hates apologizing, he views it as showing weakness. so with the passage of a little bit more time, he'll come back and take an even harder line and double down and go even further than he did in the first place. >> in 2016 we heard him say in the debate that he was sorry that he had said that he could grab women. then in the depo he said, well stars do it, unfortunately or fortunately. then asked, are you a star? he goes, yeah, of course i'm a star. then he takes it step further, first of all, trying to lie

about saying fortunately at the cnn town hall meeting. then he said, well, when you're stars for millions of years, he says in relation to sexual harassment and abuse of women. he goes, well, quote, they do well, people do well. he defines being able to sexually harass a woman as, quote, people doing well, being able to do well, being able to get away with that. >> listen, in the process of waffling in realtime on these things, he normalizes things. i mean, nobody is questioning whether or not he had an affair with stormy daniels, a porn star, a playboy model and a number of other women. nobody cares there's video of him dancing all sweaty with jeffrey epstein. he normalizes the worst

behavior. >> another example that isaac is writing about is donald trump's rhetoric about migrant families, first as president with policy and now more recently. >> we want security for our country. the republicans want security and insist on security for our country and we will have that at the same time we have compassion. we want to keep families together. it's very important. >> another immigration policy you had was a zero tolerance immigration politician that separated families at the border. if you were reelected, are you ruling out reinstitute that? >> if a family hears that, they don't come. i know it sounds harsh, but remember they said i was building prisons for children? it turned out it was obama that was building prisons for the children. >> but if you're reelected -- >> we have to save our country. >> so that's a yes? >> when you say to a family, if

you come, we're going to break you up, they don't come. we can't afford to have any more. >> is it reasonable to expect it's just going to continue to get worse from here? >> i think we can take his word for that. he has been very explicit with a second term agenda that he intends to finish what he started, pick up where he left off and push even further on some of the most divisive issues. he's talked about how in the summer of 2020 he let the governors and local officials lead on the law enforcement response to the civil unrest. he really regrets that now. if he were back in the white house in the future, he would be more aggressive about deploying federal forces and even the military in response.

>> fascinating piece. thanks so much for being here. we appreciate it. coming up on "morning joe," we'll be right back. joe," we'll be right back. (♪ music ♪) (♪ ♪) (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change.

beautiful picture of seattle at 6:30 in the morning, 9:30 here on the east coast. we turn now to a new initiative for first responders who deal with the aftermath of some of the most dangerous and unimaginable circumstances. >> what i am hearing a lot of the chiefs calling or e-mailing me, hey, i had my officer just come in and say it was great training, please send everybody. >> as a woman going into the

program, i was like there's a lot of men in here, not too many women. i started listening to some of their stories, but when i actually saw one of them cry, i was like, oh my god, it's okay to speak, because no one's going to judge you. >> i don't look to alcohol to take care of my issues. years ago if i would have said to my guys that i meditate twice a day, they would have laughed at me, but i do. >> the public safety communications network firstnet has been rolling out the struggle well training nationally since 2021. it's a program sadly that's needed with law enforcement officers 54% more likely to die by suicide than the general population and less than 40% of first responders report their mental health concerns. joining us now, director of responder wellness for the

firstnet program at at&t, dr. anna curry. and the chief of police in chesterfield county who has undergone the struggle well training. we should say up front how sad it is that we need this program in this country, because these shootings are so widespread. can you talk about how it was born, who has access to it and how it works? >> absolutely. our first responders are struggling. the rates of ptsd, depression and anxiety far exceed that of the general population and they're really looking for solutions and evidence-based programs that can help it and embed it into their training. it's really a part of how they answer their communities' calls for help. what does a first responder do?

they're answering somebody's worst day. they're answering a call that nobody wants to go to. those are considered traumatic events. that has much impact on their day-to-day life. we wanted to partner with an organization, a nonprofit called the boulder crest institute. >> colonel katz, good morning. tell us how the program benefitted your department. >> i saw the video for the introduction and thought to myself, the gentleman talked about meditation. you know, just two years ago if somebody told me that i meditate twice a day, i would have told

them they were crazy. it was an absolutely life altering program. learning the practices and principles of post-traumatic growth help you understand you can lean into trauma and use it as a mechanism to grow and become stronger. that's a very powerful thing for someone who goes through and experiences sometimes the unthinkable. i think a lot of folks don't think about what police officers and first responders see on a daily basis. if you think about the times you've called 911, those were the most horrific times in your life. our officers, firefighters, dispatchers, first responders are handling those as a matter of routine on a daily basis. over time the cumulative effect

is profound. >> can you give us an example of the type of instances a first responder would go through and the difference having this type of training under his or her belt does? >> sure. this training provides a foundation of practices and principles that first responders can use to center themselves, to put themselves in a position where they're more able to handle situations from a lower stress baseline. i think that's critical, because that allows us to enter into an otherwise stressful situation not hyped up, more thoughtful, more centered, more emotionally well adjusted. and i think also to be more compassionate, we don't have to have our armor up all of the time. we can have our guard down and we can be people helping people, which is really when we are at

our best. >> dr. curry, i mention the statistics in the lead-in. many americans don't seek help for mental health challenges. how do you convince a police officer, an emt that it's okay and it's worth it and can change your life? >> that's a great question, because our first responders are called heros in our communities. that's actually something they're very uncomfortable with, because they recognize that they do struggle. i think one of the most powerful things about the struggle well program is it sells itself in a way. once you get first responders going through the program, they start to see the benefit in their personal lives, how they respond to traumatic incidences, how they interact with their

communities. we haven't had to convince first responders to attend, because once they start hearing the language and the experience from other first responders who are oftentimes what we call expert guides in this process, teaching them how trauma is a part of life that we're not going to sugar coat it, that these are difficult professions, but there are grounding skills they can build into their life, work and career and professional development that will help them be successful. >> before i let you go, how can a police department partner with you? how can they access this help? >> absolutely. so i think one of the things that i would encourage any agency to do is to reach out to one of our agencies that are already implementing struggle well and post-traumatic growth into their divisions, so you can talk with somebody you trust, somebody who walks the walk in your own profession. you can also reach out to the

boulder crest institute. we've been walking this walk with public safety as a part of deploying them and seeing the effects and we're there to help and connect you to those possibilities that transform organizations to do their jobs better. >> the program is called struggle well. fascinating stuff. thank you both for being here. chief,thank you for your service. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. still ahead, tributes from fans and fellow musicians coming in from all over the world for tina turner. more on that when "morning joe" comes right back. n that when "m comes right back i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you

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♪♪ fans and fellow musicians are remembering music legend tina turner, who died yesterday at her home in switzerland following a long illness.

joe fryer looks back on her life and career. ♪ you're simply the best ♪ >> reporter: her performances were like electricity pulsating across the stage. ♪ ♪♪ >> no matter what's happening backstage or in my life, you just kind of smile. it's only love. that's all. ♪♪ >> reporter: tina turner became one of the most successful recording artists of all time, selling more than 180 million albums with hits like "private dancer." ♪♪ >> reporter: she was born anna

mae bullock growing up in nutbush, tennessee. that was one of many songs with ike turner, her husband of 16 years. it was a notoriously abusive relationship, one that tina eventually escaped. >> i had an abusive life. there's no other way to tell the story. >> reporter: she also spoke about overcoming her painful past. >> let go, forget the blame. take it on as something that happened and you're finished with it and focus more on doing something rather than feeling sorry for yourself. >> reporter: the '80s brought a whole new chapter for tina, who reinvented herself as a solo act, winning a pile of grammys and even starring in "mad max beyond thunderdome." her life was the subject of a movie "what's love got to do with it" and later a broadway

musical simply titled "tina." a career so sweeping he was inducted into the rock 'n' roll hall of fame twice, most recently in 2021 as a solo artist. >> if they're still giving me awards at 81, i must have done something right. >> reporter: she shared the stage with the biggest names in music including cher. >> there was no other person like her. she gave me lots of strength sometimes and i gave her lots of strength too. i think we were perfect friends for each other. ♪♪ >> reporter: beyonce, who performed with tina at the 2008 grammys, is also remembering the legend. beloved queen, i love you endlessly. i'm so grateful for your inspiration and all the ways you paved the way. and from oprah, who famously danced with tina, she is our

forever goddess of rock 'n' roll who contained a magnitude of strength that grew throughout her life. her legacy will forever live among the stars. >> so great. nbc's joe fryer with that report. >> you know you made an impression when both beyonce and mick jagger say she influenced me. >> she was electric on the stage. coming up, renowned singer/songwriter sara bareilles is here next on "morning joe." rs is here next on "morning joe." whoa. okay. easy does it. we switched to liberty mutual and saved $652. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we thought we'd try electric unicycles. whoa! careful, babe! saving was definitely easier. hey babe, i think i got it! it's actually... whooooa! ok, show-off!

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don't ever limit yourself because you never know what that voice can do. on that ooo i wonder if there's a place for some little hooky. >> what if i went oh, oh, crazy oaf you. >> since you've been here you literally keep climbing, keep growing. >> there's desperation. ask for something this this song. >> doing the challenges has given me my sense of purpose back. >> i can't see your face at all, but i feel like i just met you. >> that is a little introduction to the new audible original singing competition called breakthrough. the show features judges sara

bareilles and kelly roland as well as host david digs as they guide five undiscovered musicians there, the show is audio only. and grammy winner sara bareilles joins us in studio. >> this is not on twitter spaces. that sounded really good. >> twitter spaces with politics this morning. didn't go great. >> we don't need to go there. >> let's keep it to audible instead, how about that. this does seem like the next -- if "the voice" on nbc is we can't see the performance. this is like the next step of that. you have to be a great musician, a great singer, have a unique voice to get through. >> kelly and i have talked about this a lot. we realized how much information you're getting visually all the time and how many biases and assumptions you end up making about who a person is just the

information you get the way they look, how tall they are, how they dress, all the things, so it was very intimate to just be -- it reminded me of the way i used to listen to music on my bedroom floor with my headphones on just reading lyrics. it's a really intimate way to get to know -- >> you're not in the room. >> no, never saw -- i saw these contestants for the first time yesterday. we had our finale taping yesterday. it was remarkable. you know how when people had masks on during covid, you would like misappropriate their mouths. that's not the mouth i gave you. i was like oh, my gosh, i thought you had red hair. but then immediately they all came to life exactly as they were. it was incredible. >> and then you're choosing them for the right reason, for their talent. >> joe's here with a question for you. >> i was going to say, you look at mika's glasses right now that she put on a couple of minutes ago for no reason, and even mika could win wearing those glasses because it's audio only.

>> joe, i'm sorry, i know you don't like these glasses, but my contacts were in the wrong eyes, and i was blind. >> it happens. it happens. very good. >> i love them. >> really? >> yes. >> sarah's going to wear them to the tony's. >> maybe not. >> i'm reminded of something that quincy jones told us when we were interviewing him. he said when he was young, he would go into the studio and there was one great producer that he absolutely respected, and he said he'd watch and listen as they were recording, and he's like i don't quite get this, and the producer said young man, turn around, close your eyes and listen, and he did, and quincy jones said the second he did that and wasn't distracted like you said by a million different things, he said he sat there and he listened. he goes ah, get -- >> did we just lose joe?

>> i thought he was kind of like pranking us. >> you got the gist of what he's saying. >> i'm nodding and acting like i heard the end of it. but i did not. >> it sounded like he said something profound though. [ laughter ] >> but you get the sentiment that quincy jones was sharing there. >> absolutely. yeah, i think we take for granted, it's such a visual world now, and we have so much -- so many things happening at the same time, it's a really interesting distillation to sort of take the craft of song writing and the craft of being a vocalist and really go back to the form it's meant to be consumed in, which is audio only. and i got to do a lot in my pajamas. >> isn't that awesome? >> beyond the ability to do it in your pajamas, what drew you to this in the first place? was it the idea of trying to focus on the music? you mentioned laying on your bedroom floor with headphones, is it evocative of that?

>> i'm always drawn to doing things i hadn't done before. i hadn't kind of worked in this space before, and i loved the sort of courage of doing -- it is a competition show but not really. we didn't have a winner every week. we didn't have, you know, there was a winner chosen at the end of it, but the point of breakthrough was about these artists meeting challenges within themselves and breaking through and evolving, and they all did, so -- their connection, this is a really kind, nurturing competition show, you know, and nobody was mean, which is the other draw. >> no, it's a great idea, and it's the way we consume things now. we're trained with podcasts and everything else, you walk down the street or listen in the car, it's such a great idea. we have to ask you about the tony nomination for "into the woods." congratulations. it was a complete surprise for something that was like a two-week theater fling for you. >> it was two weeks at city center for the encore series, and it turned into a broadway run and a tony nomination for

performance, which is really meaningful. as a theater kid, waitress was an extraordinary adventure for me, but i never imagined myself as broadway composer. i imagined myself on stage in this way. to get acknowledged by this community of people that mean more than anything to me in the world, it's unbelievable. i'm so grateful. >> you can listen to the audible original, breakthrough starting next thursday june 1st streaming anywhere that you get your podcast. sara bareilles, thank you very much. thank you for your support. >> we all support you. >> unanimous at the table. >> all of us. >> we're going to take a quick break. "morning joe" will be back in just a moment. ♪ jitterbug! ♪ [ giggles loudly ] ♪ jitterbug! ♪ [ giggles loudly ] ♪ jitterbug! ♪ [ giggles loudly ] ♪ jitterbug! ♪ [ giggles loudly ]

[ tapping ] ♪ you put the boom-boom into my heart ♪ intuitive sit-to-start in the all-electric id.4. it's the little things, it's a vw.

when the martins booked their vrbo vacation home, they really weren't looking for much: just time with each other. but when they needed support, i got you. they could reach a real person in about a minute. and that's what makes vrbo unique. ♪ it's 10:00 a.m. eastern, i'm lindsey reiser