and no rigorous recertification like lifeguarding. >> it takes a lot to become a lifeguard. over 100 hours. you have to do medical training. be a very strong swimmer. be in great shape. >> reporter: some suggest think it is time to rethink the goal of lifeguard as an merge service. >> we are looking at it as a part time employer but they provide an essential job. >> reporter: a recruiting rush that can have life or death consequences. >> we've already had eight drownings this year in our community. and unfortunately, all the drownings have happened in areas where there weren't life guards. >> life or death. there you go. that will do it for me today. "deadline-white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the new york. there's brand new reporting on previously unknown evidence that has been developed by the justice department in the

classified documents case. evidence that paints a potentially damning portrait of efforts by the expresident in the expresident's push to retrieve important and sensitive security documents from that "washington post" report, quote, two of donald trump's employees moved boxes of papers the day before fbi agents and a prosecutor visited the former president's florida home to retrieve classified documents in response to a subpoena. timing that investigators have come to view as suspicious, and an indication of possible obstruction. according to people familiar with the matter. trump and his aides allegedly carried out a dress rehearsal for moving sensitive papers, even before his office received the may 2022 subpoena. that is according to people familiar with the matter who spoke anonymously to describe a sensitive ongoing investigation. the "washington post" has new details on a question that has loomed over the entire investigation. what did donald trump do with

his trove of classified documents? from that reporting, quote, prosecutors in addition have gathered evidence indicating that trump at times kept classified documents in his office in a place where they were visible, and sometimes showed them to others, these people said. the revelations that trump staff held a so-called dress rehearsal for moving papers and the moving of boxes suspiciously just one day before the fbi arrived gives us the glimpse of the strength of the case. this as jack smith barrels toward a decision on charges. bloomberg is reporting this. special counsel jack smith is wrapping up his investigation into former president trump's refusal to return classified documents after his election defeat, and is poised to announce possible criminal charges in the days or weeks after memorial day. brand new reporting on the lengths team trump went, including a dress rehearsal to

withhold classified documents from the fbi and the justice department is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former fbi counter intelligence agent pete strut is here. plus, general harry lipman is back, plus correspondent and msnbc political contributor is who are, and former cia director and msnbc senior national security analyst, john brennan is here. director brennan, let me start with you. brian goodman tweeted this. i expect this will result in espionage act charges. dissemination is key. that was his response to the new "washington post" reporting. do you think he has a point? do you see it that way? >> well, this certainly seems like more damning evidence. if these reports are true, it is unsurprising given donald trump's lifelong disregard of the rules.

disrespect to law. and arrogant sense of entitlement that he can do anything he wants. now he is dealing with a very, very serious issue which is classified documents and obstruction of justice. and according to this report, there were first made, right on the eve of this investigation on the part of investigation to obscure and to conceal evidence. so it doesn't look very good for donald trump. if all this evidence is mounting, and jack smith is a special counsel of the highest integrity with a dogged determination to find the truth in this matter. so it is clear that they have been quite active in this investigation. >> director brennan, as someone trained in observing american adversaries, let's take the who out of this for a second. if someone was suspected of having u.s. state secrets and before they knew that the u.s. government was coming to get them back, and there was evidence developed that they had rehearsed moving them in advance

of the subpoena, what would the u.s. national security agency think? >> well, i think we would frequently go to, what was the worst-case scenario? what is it that could be most damaging to our national security? which is not just concealing these classified documents from the authorities, but also, what might be done with them, who they might be shown to. who might have access to them, irrespective of whether or not the person who had possession of the documents granted them access. it is clear there was very sloppy handling and mishandling of misinformation and i am really concerned that who might have had access to it. and those that have ill intentions toward the united states. as we've talked before, donald trump would have had to have been a very high target of counter intelligence activities on the part of our adversaadver given his penchant for being sloppy. so there are a lot of questions about the damage that was done

as a result of these documents being out of appropriate controls. >> pete, i want to come to you on part of stregs that has been more opaque than the obstructive investigation. there have been questions about the existence of security tapes and witnesses believed to be tied to some of that evidence. that may have obscured how serious the espionage act, and whether or not jack smith could or would make charges related to that. what do you make of the elab the rat nature of what we understand it to be about highsing and moving and the physical relocation of documents, as well as the existence of the documents on trump's desk and the ability of anyone in there to see them and access them. >> well, i think the big thing

that it points to is a premeditation. there is a long pattern of behavior going back to trump's reluctance and refusal to provide information to the national archives and returning documents that appears to show that he knew that he had material that he should not have, and refusing to give it up, first to the national archives, then to the department of justice via subpoena and search warrant. we've seen that jack smith recently, the national archives indicated they were giving up 16, 17 documents which speak to indications and records that president trump was briefed on the fact that he couldn't have this information. so we see, and this idea of a dress rehearsal was first reported to have appeared in judge howell's ruling that trump's attorneys, there was a crime fraud exception. that they had to testify to the grand jury and provide information from their notebooks. so there's this idea of recurring behavior where trump was told that it was wrong and illegal to do so and

nevertheless he continued to do that. the other thing we're seeing in this recent "washington post" reporting, the whole idea of why. what is your theory of the case. why did donald trump want to keep it? and there is some information that he had potentially shown to it an author. that he had shown it to donors. there's some concern immediately after the doj visited, that he left for the summer and then the golf tournament occurred about two months later. so a lot of the why is starting to come into focus in terms of what was it that caused donald trump to repeatedly break the law and allegedly maintain these highly classified documents. >> the attorney who recently left said in a cnn interview that some of his conflict was about a search. when pressed about what search, he said bedminster. and there have been a lot of bread crumbs, about the interest in the saudi golf tournament,

there was this drop from him that he was worried about a search of bedminster. there was this chain of events that pete strock outlines. what do you make of what we're learning, what is coming into focus publicly? >> i think what we're, what is increasingly becoming clear is just how much information jack smith has hoovered up that isn't yet in the public knowledge. this is one of those stories that has been covered most closely over the last 12 months for obvious reasons. it involves one of the most powerful figures on the american right. and yet, despite all that, there's still so much going on in this investigation that has yet to percolate, or become visible to those of us viewing it from the outside. that reference to the bedminster search, of course, is fascinating. the liv golf connection, of all things, is another really notable development.

"the new york times" noted that there was a subpoena that came out from jack smith's team asking about the trump organization's investments in multiple foreign countries, including france and oman. between the trump organization and people in those countries. it is a really wide and also a really varied scope. if jack smith brings charges and all these reports indicate that he may be winding down and preparing to do so, i would expect those charging documents to contain things that might not necessarily be what people would assume would be most obvious just based on what is in the public record. we know smith is taking a wider lens and going deeper than is obvious to folks in the public. one other tid bit that's fascinating that came out this week, a prominent firm in washington, coming out of a d.c. courthouse after having arguments under seal with a doj lawyer who works very closely

with jack smith's team. those lawyers, especially the most prominent one very recently have been working closely for a number of powerful tech companies including twitter. the litigation they were involved in in that courtroom was under seal which means we as the public don't know what the dispute was over. but it just highlights the extent to what so much of what jack smith is doing is not public but could in the coming weeks and months before public. >> do you have any reporting along the lines of timing? bloomberg is i think the only outlet reporting and the sourcing is people familiar with the matter that days after memorial day is what their sources tell them jack smith's timing may be on the documents? >> we don't. the bloomberg reporters on that byline are great. i have no reason to think what they're reporting is wrong.

that said, sometimes what appears to be the justice department's time line isn't exactly how it ends up being in part because these investigations are often moving at a furious pace until they're ready to actually bring charges forward. that said, doj is going to bump up eventually into a bit of a deadline because of the republican presidential primary that is underway. they're going to want to be sensitive to the fact that any charges related to trump without question will be viewed on the right as political meddling. the longer they wait to bring those charges, the more intense criticism they'll face from republicans. so they're going to be under pressure internally, as well as externally, to try to wrap this up sooner rather than later. >> i want to just really freeze-frame on the acts. the acts of dress rehearsing obstruction of a federal investigation. the act of moving things the day before a subpoena is such an

extraordinary thing. we're not learning that he's trying to find out if it happened. the post is reporting that he has learned that trump staff held a so-called dress rehearsal for moving papers and the moving of boxes just one day before the fbi arrived. trump sxis had aides allegedly carried out a rehearsal even before they received the may 22, '22 subpoena. what does this say? the last thing we heard was that he wasn't particularly helpful. we know cash patel continues to publicly swing for the fences for donald trump but he does have some limited immunity. looking at the list of witnesses, i think every lawyer's. the attorneys who may or may not have had knowledge of that, another executive assistant who may or may not have been

involved from sensitive papers has been before the grand jury. and the calamaris who were believed to have had knowledge of the surveillance footage. they have been before the grand jury. what do you make of what we're learning from the "washington post" today? >> so it is extraordinary but i think it is cumulative. complain the most important detail. in story, the grand jury has na. that's the longest high it is a on the scene. so this is new news to us. to betsy's point, it is old news to jack smith. and i think he already had, and this just adds to a very, very strong case of obstruction that trump, of course, knew what, that he had to return things and he didn't. in that sense, it's just topping it off and topping it off. the big line, the other big line in the post is the notion that he may have passed it along to

others. as ryan goodman says, that would be a whole new crime under the espionage act. i want to do a cautionary note here. look, we know smith is really looking far afield, including some things that have not panned out. he has a professional judgment call to make depending on the strength of that evidence. let's say he has people saying trump used to show it but doesn't have the people themselves. does he want to add on to his already strong case of obstruction and unlawful taking a not quite as strong espionage count? to me, that's a really basic prosecutorial judgment and i can see him keeping it leaner doing that. that's really eye-catching. to me the rest is basically cumulative. >> director brown, let me bring you in on that. it seems there's also a national security aspect to this in terms

of whether there's evidence of a violation of the espionage act. on what he might have been doing. this goes to his motive. >> my experience is that the former president has his agenda, and he will use whatever is at his disposal to advance that. the problem we have here is that depending on what agenda issues forth, he has had at his disposal for a long period of time information that if he used that information to advance an agenda item, it could have devastating consequences to national security. but i can't think of a simpler

way to say why i think that this moment is so difficult. that's because there is no justification and knowing who he is, and that he doesn't fully understand, but he may not decide to protect if he wanted to do something different. >> she's choosing her words so carefully. we get a chance to talk to her again tomorrow, many months after that first chance to talk to her about this case. and i want to try to drill down on this really important question. to betsy's point that there is more that we don't know than we do about jack smith's probe, doj has a piece of america's national security. there is a national security division inside doj with the express purpose of working hand in hand with other agencies to protect u.s. national security. i wonder what you think the stakes are to treating him as we

would anybody else who had endangered national security and state secrets. >> the stakes are extremely high and i fully agree with sue that it is quite clear that donald trump's retention of these documents was quite purposeful. and with an aim that is still unknown. how he was going to leverage the information in those documents that contain some of the most sensitive secrets of the u.s. intelligence and government. what would he do? what has he done already? the potential compromise of sources and methods, if you look at the classification markings, the code words on those documents. some of the most sensitive, extremely sensitive that we have. the collections systems, other things. the thing about donald trump, not only does he not care about the implications and the consequences of his actions. i don't think he fully

understands. he was never really a student of the intelligence profession itself. so therefore, who knows to documents, that we really do get to the bottom of what he planned to do, what he might have already done, and go who might have had access to these documents that could have seriously compromised national security. >> pete, let me show you trump's own defenses. i've studied them carefully. in them, it is all about the possessive. i possess the right to possess. it is never denying what sue gordon or john brennan just articulated. let me play this for you. >> if you're the president of the united states, you can declassify by saying, it's declassified, even by thinking about it. because you're sending it to mar-a-lago or wherever you're sending it.

>> why did you take those documents with you? >> i had every right to under the presidential records act. you have the presidential records act. i was there and i took what i took. >> he doesn't deny that he took. and there was human intelligence, nuclear intelligence, intelligence collected by allies. there was sensitive data on foreign leaders. there is an asymmetry to the things he bursts out and none of them are denied that he willfully sought to retain for hopefully reasons jack smith has gotten to the bottom of classified material. >> that's right. to kind of go through some of the assertions, first of all, the presidential records act doesn't give him tell right to take anything he wants. the things that he is citing, that he can declassify with his brain just by thinking about it

is nonsense. what concerns me, you're absolutely right. it is, i have the right. i could do it and implicitly i did do it. what never comes out of his mouth, what he never says in any of his behavior is, and i appreciate the solemn responsibility that i had as the president of the united states to protect the national security of the united states of america. i understood the gravity behind this highly classified information and what it cost the united states in terms of potential human lives, potentially exquisite technical capabilities which costs billions upon billions to create. there is never a word out of him to express any sort of appreciation about the gravity and the importance of protecting this information. it is always, i had the right to take it. i can do whatever i wanted. so there is this disconnect. i completely agree with director brennan that he in any way, shape or form was a student of any of the national security process of the united states of america. and as an intelligence

professional, that givers me the greatest harm. it is not just about the documents. it is about the things that he was briefed on on a routine basis, on a weekly or more basis while president of the united states that are bouncing around somewhere in his brain that he may or may not have any desire to not tell the world, or not tell a foreign national, or not tell a journalist. that is what is so concerning about his continued behavior. >> and the stakes of not getting to the bottom of it extend beyond his conduct as president and expresident. he is a candidate for 2024. we'd damn well better know who he shared what with if he is to ascend in any way, shape or form in american politics. it seems essential to every every government agency exists to protect. about the time line, i want to put this up for you, harry and betsy, and really flush out how the time line of these revelations impacts what we

understand to be his state of mind. and something pete says of premeditation. we'll have much more on that after the break. no one is going anywhere. there are questions about the twice impeached and civilly liable indicted expresident as his virginia golf course gets ready to host a golf tournament for the saudi prince. and later, the first insurrectionist to be sentenced for seditious conspiracy. stewart rhodes has been given the longest sentence yet. don't go anywhere. where. (woman) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. and only pay for what i need.

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everybody is still here with us. let me read you this section from the "washington post" reporting. taken together, these new details of the classified documents investigation broadens the time line of possible obstruction episodes that investigators are examining. a period stretching from events at mar-a-lago before the subpoena to the period after the fbi raid there on august 8. it may prove crucial as prosecutors, a key factor in deciding whether to file charges of obstruction of justice or of mishandling national security secrets. the "washington post" has previously reported that the boxes were moved out of the storage area after trump's office received a subpoena. but the precise timing of that activity is a significant element in the investigation. that's according to people familiar with the matter.

just help us understand why that is such a big and important piece of the puzzle for investigators, harry. >> sure. although, as i've said, it it embellishes and bolsters where he's already going which is obstruction and mishandling of documents. today we've been assuming the receipt of the subpoena is the crystalline moment. this puts it before, even anticipating it, they're already doing dress rehearsals of criminal conduct and obstruction. so that makes it broader. look, i think we're moving to a new phase here. and i want to keep my doj/prosecutor's hat on for just a minute. what i've suggested is that that is important. quick points, to pete's point, he might say thus and so.

the evidence is there that he was told repeatedly. it is not too early to remind everyone of axiom number one. trump cannot testify. so think about how he can even make these claims. and finally on the time line in bloomberg's report. it seems to me it's possible, since they haven't met since the 5th, that the grand jury has wrapped up or they've gotten most of the info from jack smith and that's what report theers are talking about. we have to remember, there is a process to comeha i think days weeks is referring to. even though he will defer, i think it will be methodical, careful, and will involve his kitchen cabinet and smith and others. and that's what people don't quite understand yet, don't quite know, which is the duration from smith saying, i want to go forward to garland's actually green lighting. >> that's really interesting for a context.

betsy, i want to follow up on harry's point about the importance of some of the evidence. to your point as well. that we have no idea what we don't know that jack smith knows. there is something about the brazenness. and i cover this all the time. the cumulative effect of nothing ever happening to donald trump. that once revealed, the brazen acts, it is the string in the water where he says, i don't take notes on a criminal conspiracy when he's teaching his drug dealers how to go to the next level. they are dress rehearsing on a property where they've installed the surveillance cameras themselves. they weren't put there by the fbi. this is their own security system which apparently has evidence of them carrying out potentially the crime of obstructing a subpoena. >> and of course, the huge question is, how would jack smith use whatever evidence he's gathered to make a case in court

that trump willingly, deliberately, on purpose broke the law? there's a journey between gathering evidence, getting witness testimony, and then packaging it in a way that would get a unanimous guilty conviction from a jury as we've seen in a number of high profile cases in recent years. juries can be unpredictable which is a feature of our system. there are countries where there's never any suspense in a trial, not a country where we would live. for merrick garland who will make the sign-off on this, it isn't just what evidence do they have but is it enough that a group of randomly chosen americans sitting on a jury would say, this is incontrovertible. this is enough. part of the reason the justice department sometimes doesn't bring charges in cases that seem like they should be head-scratchers is because of that level of unpredictability.

and one huge timing wild card is that ultimately, merrick garland is the person who will make this decision. he is known for moving a little slowly. for not being the most lickedy split personality time when it come to decisions like this that will really define his tenure as attorney general. that is why a lot of unpredictability in terms of when this next step would happen in terms of the justice department bringing charges against trump. when and if that next step would happen. while doj controls a lot, there's a lot that they don't have total control over. >> such an interesting point. it would be so complicated for dwarld after john durham just wrote in black and white that he would tell them what to do and when to do it. if that bears out, that would be an extraordinary departure from how john durham was treated. >> absolutely. the other fact is that john

durham brought two prosecution that's were both acquitted. >> and i think a lot of observers said, i'm not sure why these cases were brought. it was pretty thin as far as the charges, what the historical record was. so i do think the attorney general, these are not mid level employees of the department of justice. not folks who worked as lobbyists. i expect the attorney general will be involved. he will review closely what the recommendations are coming out of jack smith's team but at the end of the day, jack smith is the special counsel. for the same reasons that the attorney general articulated why he felt he needed to appoint a special counsel, those are the same reasons that he, i believe, is going to maintain the same position that this is an independent special counsel. i've reviewed his findings. i have no strong -- there is nothing there that reaches the level within the special counsel guidelines to overrule him.

he is going to maintain that independence that initially caused him to name the special counsel in the first place. so i agree, absolutely. this is going to be a very deliberate process as it should be for something of this magnitude. i expect, my expectations, however long that takes, weeks, months, that we're on a path to see some sort of action this summer or this fall. >> to betsy's point about juries, a jury just delivered a unanimous judgment and found trump liable of sexual abuse and actual malice and defamation in the e. jean carroll case. when a jury is presented evidence this close to trump, and i imagine a taped deposition with trump would be part of any trial on these charges. if you're a jury and everyone is telling you the story of a dress rehearsal for moving boxes, containing classified documents.

in january trump turns over 15 boxes of documents. 184 classified in there. 25 were top secret. may 2022, the grand jury subpoena comes. trump still had 38 classified documents, 17 marked top secret when they go in on august 8. 103 classified documents were there. so the number of classified documents in his possession at the time that he's attesting there are none. the jury hears from every one of the lawyers who represented him at the time. mr. corcoran, who told to you move the boxes? miss bob, who will you to move the boxes? walt, who told you to put them there? molly michael, who told you to put the documents on his desk so people could see? molly michael, who came -- i mean, just what we already know jack smith has at his disposal. it seems the people telling the story are extraordinarily close

to donald trump. . >> yes, as has been said by others, it is so important in a case like this against a former president of the united states, to have as strong a base of evidence as possible. documentary evidence as well as the interviews of individuals close to him. because they are hoping that a jury, if this is brought to charges, will be able to see that massive accumulation of evidence that is reinforcing of the charges that might be brought against donald trump. and that is why i think jack smith is going to great lengths to get every bit of evidence available. as becky mentioned, there is a lot we don't know, that i'm sure he is trying to bring all of it to bear so if he decides to go forward on charges, he has full confidence this is a case that he is going to be able to win in front of a jury. >> thank you so much for starting us off on the reporting

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investigating the biden-family finances doesn't seem remotely interested in the relationship between the trump family and the saudi public investment fund. go figure. that triangular link in connection, one that smells pretty fishy is in special focus this afternoon. that's because donald trump himself participated in a pro am round at his virginia golf course today. the host of this weekend's liv golf tournament. before we go any further, whether you know anything about golf or like golf, couldn't tell a 3 wood from a 9 iron, surely you can understand what is problem at bik a former president and current front-runner in the republican party engaging in a multimillion-dollar relationship with a sports league that has been accused by people in the world of golf of being what amounts to a slush fund for a foreign government, allegedly. not to mention saudi crown prince bin salman has been creditably accused of being

deeply connected to the murder and dismemberment of the "washington post" columnist. he happens to be the chair of a fund that previously invested $2 billion in, wait for it, jared kushner's projects. while republicans on capitol hill appear entirely indifferent about all of this, the shadowy entanglements, at least we know jack smith is paying attention. remember, recent subpoenas revealed the special counsel sought records related to trump and liv golf so we'll continue to watch that space. to do that with me at the table, the host of the independent americans podcast, and founder of the group, iraq and afghanistan for america. we were talking during the break, the netflix series doc on the golf world shows how this has divided the world of golf.

we people off the political piece of this, the trump piece, but it is incredibly divisive. >> there is a golf tournament with a blue and a red section. i'm a golf fan and a really bad golf player. my sons and i now root against liv golfers. we root for them to lose because in my view, they sold out to the saudis. as a 9/11 first responder, i'm outraged by the entire thing. i think it is a national security issue. and they decide to take the money and stand with the saudis is standing against america. so it is enveloping the entire golf world but i think it is about america. liv golf will be like the wwe. fans are largely going to have to choose, too. >> it is amazing. the amazing all the ripples anything tied to trump. trump and jared kushner's ties to the saudi money are not in

dispute, right? they're not in debate. "the new york times" has done some incredible reporting on the post presidential phase. trump's conduct pales in comparison only to his embrace of vladimir putin. but it's there. and i wonder what you make of special counsel's jack smith's interest in it. >> i want to take you up on the putin idea. we forget, his first foreign trip was to saudi arabia breaking hundreds of years of precedent of what you do. so the other mantra that you have to deal with trump is that watergate mantra, follow the money. that tells you everything. he is doing this purely for money. he likes the chaos. he likes the red and blue aspect of it. the other reason it is interesting, it is related to vladimir putin. the problem with saudi arabia is how they've cozied up to vladimir putin in russia. they're buying gigantic amounts of russian oil so they can sell

their oil for more. they just did a military cooperation agreement a couple of months ago with the russians. so they're really not helping their ally, the united states, in what is going on in ukraine. they betrayed the u.s. and cozied up to putin. >> with trump, the russia point is made. more skillfully by rick stengel. in the political world people can only sustain one foul. so the russia thing is so flagrant. but this is just as deep and connected. they are an al eye. it is in a different category. going back decades and decades, post 9/11, the families were, you know, deeply offended and remain very active on this front. it is a very complicated relationship. >> it is. it is also a third rail that shouldn't be hit for the most part in politics but trump keeps

hitting it. this is a guy who wanted to negotiate with the taliban at camp david on 9/11. tone deaf? he had sketchy recollections of what happened on 9/11. now 9/11 family members are saying don't do a golf tournament with the saudis. but trump is immune to all of this. i don't know how it will stand up when he has to cross reference it with what danys will say. this is an issue of patriotism. and i think that has to be more on a regular basis and especially as we go into an election where we're electing a future commander in chief. >> betsy and others have made the point very wisely that we have no idea what jack smith knows. we just see the little drops that come out and become public facing. we do know there is a subpoena. that one of the post presidential business activities he's interested in understanding more about is trump's

relationship with liv golf. >> yes. we don't know how many millions have been funneled to trump for this. it is sports watching, basically a brain to help the reputation. given the choice between self-interest and national interest, always chooses self-interest. i would love to know. he happens to be running for president. i mean, i think voters would like to know how an exu.s. president, how many millions of dollars he's getting from the saudis to host these golf tournaments. it is kind of crazy. we remember a time, if someone was running for president, they wouldn't do any kind of deal at all with any foreign entity because they have to be pure. again, trump seems immune to that. and i would like to know what the investigation is about.

>> what do you think about the high-level washington effort, to broaden the aperture, what do you think voters think about trump's warm public embrace of the saudi golf tournament? >> i don't think they normally pay that much attention. this is an example where the culture and the politics intercept. people care about golf. they care about the pga. they care about whether or not phil mickelson will win or if tiger turns out. tiger is trying to fix his own image. and tiger is the son of a green beret. he was raised in a very patriotic military family. i think issues of patriotism thrust into the forefront like kaepernick kneeling on the national anthem, the nfl, pga golf, i think it will impact voters. they look at it as a cultural issue. and i think it is important to remember it is a national security issue. even our golf is now divided.

and every time america is divided, our enemies are celebrating. putin loves this. they love seeing us divided in every element to even include golf. >> i want to press you on that. republicans are so expert when the facts are not on their side of playing the patriotism card. who to you see on the democratic side with facts on their side and public values on their side, capable of making the argument? >> i think it is veterans. i think we're seeing more and more the approximaty war of veterans that will run. it you will hear desantis talk more about his navy service. >> you see folks like my friend wes moore in maryland who is trying to reframe patriotism and his time as an 82nd airborne veteran. they'll be proxies for the parties and that is why i see so many veterans checking out of both parties and declaring as independents. 49% of my generation are

independent. they're rejecting both parties and looking for leaders that can transcend party and focus on patriotism first. >> i want to understand that. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. nywhere. progressive makes it easy to save with a quick commercial auto quote online. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. really? get a quote at progressivecommercial.com. how to grow more vibrant flowers: step one: feed them with miracle-gro

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but i can tell you that there are a lot of really great people that are out here today. we're going to have a lot of fun. >> i don't even know what we do with that. we can't look away. >> by the way, here's the indisputable fact. he's never seen a conspiracy theory he doesn't lend credence to. the thing we do know is 15 of the 19 hijackers were saudis. we have never actually punished them in a way that we probably should. certainly, the 9/11 teams are very aware that the saudis were part of it. you want to go to your point, which was really good. but this idea that democrats have somehow seated to republicans patriotism, the flag, military service, is a problem. i have been talking about it for many years. democrats need to bring back those values to the party, to talk about the importance of

service. the importance of military service, the flag, all those things. you have a guy in trump who never has done anything of public interest or for the country's whole life until he ran for president, who wraps himself this that. that's a problem. >> i think there's a bigger issue. i think that this is a national security issue. we keep talking about trump like he's bob dole. this is not just a political story. he's gafl newsing, motivating and mobilizing millions of people who are angry, who have deep, deep animosity and have guns. he's pointed them at places them before and he can again. this isn't just about whether he wins the nomination. this is about whether he continues to mobilize people to overthrow our government. >> which is still his message. there was a warning yesterday, dhs issued a warning yesterday. we blew up the show and spent 20 minutes on it. why don't the democrats duoto

the steps of the capitol and say we have a target list. the department of homeland security has developed evidence that says that the threatened people and places in america include lgbtq community, include government buildings and institutions, includes everybody that donald trump and trumpists and allies attack day after day after day. to your point, largely, with conspiracy theories. >> i'm not holding my breath for the democrats to win this for america. most americans aren't. that's why more and more people are leaving. >> the alternative is other people involved in this conversation beyond the elected leaders that's gotten this. they are not the same. but we keep hoping that the democrats are going to step up and meet the moment. we are hoping they are going to we re define patriotism and trump they are not the only players on the battlefield. independents are part of it, but it's people who haven't been in politics. most americans aren't going to listen to "morning joe" anymore. they are photo going to listen to nancy pelosi. but they might listen to the

cham of the joint staffs. they might listened to retired generals and people outside of politics. they have got to get in this discussion and help us reach more people. >> i have to say, though, i once upon of time would have agreed with that. where it was two parties that accepted politics and were basically patriotic. when you have one party, which is using conspiracy theories to rise up, it's like then whoever is in opposition has to be given credibility and vote for them. >> they have to earn your credibility. they don't get it by default. many people in this country are democrat by default. and what i see when i talked about 49% of veterans are unaffiliated and independents, 60% of young people are unaffiliated and indepartment. they are checking out and saying none of the above. what they are looking for is leadership. they are looking for leadership that can transcend their party. that's the truth that happens off of cable news and the heart

of america. >> what i would say to those people who are independents, the bar is pretty low for democrats to approve. i'm not supporting insurrection. i'm not supporting a default that would hurt every single wallet of every single american. >> to turn them into people who actually go out and vote for you is a different undertaking. let's have that conversation because it is a little uncomfortable. there's a sense of he's not an aud democrat. but i think if you have information and i trust that you do, they are not there yet, we should understand that and have that conversation here. can we do that? to be continued. we are going to switch gears and take a short break. when we come back, we're going to tell you about the giant story today. a judge telling the leader of the oath keepers even behind bars, he remains a threat to national security.

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it you don't, there will be no more republic. we're not going to let that happen. it's either president trump is bolstered strength ask do what we must do, or wiepd up in a bloody fight. the fight is coming. >> it's 5:00 in new york. 18 years behind bars for that guy. the first january 6th insurist to be sentenced for the extraordinary, historic and incredibly rare and deeply serious charge of seditious conspiracy. that was stewart rhodes, the leader of the oath keepers. while the justice department asked for 25 years, the sentence handed down by the judge today is the longest sentence by far in any january 6th case to date. today's sentencing hearing was an extraordinary moment revealing where we are as a

country in the midst for accountability and one that's grappling with the threat to our democracy that was most visible on january 6th but has not gone away in the years since the attack. attorneys for stewart rhodes tried to down play the role in the actual insurrection describing them as a rag tag group of people who only took action on january 6th because the ex-president donald trump circled the date when he posted that now infamous december 19th tweet that read, quote, be there, we'll will be wild. prosecutors countered those claims laying out how rhodes led the conspiracy and rattle call liezed people with lies about the 2020 lx. doj pointed out that rhodes has been under repenitent about his role in trying to overturn the election. they revealed that just a few days ago, rhodes spoke via phone at a nightly protest at a d.c. jail housing january 6th

defendants and called for, quote, regime change. it is a chilling call for political violence at a time when the department of homeland security is warning of a persistent and lethal threat of domestic violent extremism in america. rhodes spoke at the hearing describing himself as a political prisoner and tried to explain his call for regime change as his hope that the ex-president, who promised to pardon january 6th defendants, will win the next presidential contest. the last word went to the judge. he told roelds, quote, you, sir, present ab ongoing threat and a peril to this country and its democracy and the very fabric of this country. then he handed down the sentence to keep the leader behind bars until well into his 70s. this afternoon also saw the sentencing of kelly megs, the leader of the florida oath keepers chapter and a deppty of rhodes. he was sentenced to 12 years in prison for his conviction. the longest sentence yet for a

january 6th defendant amid an ongoing push for accountability and a looming domestic extremist threat in america is where we begin the hour. justice reporter ryan riley is here, plus former attorney general for national security of the u.s. department of justice mary mccord is back. still with me at the table is paul rite cough, host of the independent americas podcast. and former state department official rick steng the is here. take me through the dramatic sentencing. >> it was really quite something because this is an instance where you have this individual who is really not repentant and sees himself as the nelson mandela of america. he thinks he's a political prisoner and the government is all against him. that's just not what the evidence shows. there's evidence about his planning and open letters ask

calls for these oath keepers to step in and for trump to hand over the keeps to the ooet copers and allow them to keep them in power in these ongoing calls. there's there th lingering mystery that we heard about awhile even before this trial happened. it wasn't touched on during the trial. this that rhodes, one of the other oath keepers swore that he on the night of january 6th after all of this tried to get in touch with donald trump and talk to what some unknown trump associates. that's one of the lingering mysteries that are coming out of this. the question will be answered, maybe it will when the other oath keeper cooperated was sentenced. but what you have here is a record-setting sentence of 18 years, that will keep stewart rhodes behind wars into his 70s. you have to serve at least 80% of this. this isn't a situation he's going to be coming out any time

soon. that is unless, as he hopes and a lot of january 6th defendants hope, donald trump is reelected and does what he said he would do, which is pardon a lot of the january 6th defendants because he believes they have been treated very unfairly. but if you sat through the court proceedings and sat through the jury trial and saw the mixed verdict that the jury handed down here and really looking at the evidence closely and following the evidence and applying the facts and the law, you really recognize what actually happened here, which is that this was a conspiracy here and the jurors looked at what the evidence proved beyond a reasonable doubt and reached their conclusion. >> we owe you a debt of gratitude for covering this today and every day. thank you so much for starting us off this hour. let me pick up on what ryan is talking about with you, mary. here's picking up on some of the threats in the january 6th select committee hearings. >> in the weeks leading up to

the attack, leaders in the proud boys and oath keepers worked with trump allies. one such ally was lieutenant general michael flynn, trump's former national security adviser, and one of the participants in the unhinged meeting at the white house on december 18th. he also had connections to the oath keepers. another central figure with ties to this network of extremist groups was roger stone, a political consultant and confidant of president trump. he pardoned flynn and stone in the weeks between the election on november 3rd and january 6th. in the same timeframe, stone commuicated with both the proud boys and the oath keepers regularly. >> it's an interesting part of this story. he's going to jail for 18 years because he was convicted by a jury of the extraordinary crime of seditious conspiracy, and as ryan just reported, if it trump is reelected, he will be pardoned.

>> let's just hope that doesn't happen. i think this is a really important sentence. and i think i wasn't in the courtroom, but i read extensive reporting about the judge's comments. i also read a descrip of what stewart rhodes was saying. he does remain unre pen tant. i'm not surprised. because not only did he engage in extensive planning from the time of the election up until the actual insurrection and beyond, intending to be there as this force that they could call forth to be his own army to prevent the actual transfer of power. never mind that you can't manufacture an insurrection and then invoke the insurrection act. this is something that stewart rhodes has been agitating for for years. this wasn't even new to 2020.

back during the first impeachment, he famously tweeted that to the former president, if there's an attempt to remove you from office, all you have to do is call us up. we will answer the call. and our weapon of choice is an ar-15. we can go back even further. he and his oech oath keepers have engaged in arm standoff after arm standoff against the federal government when they disagree with policies. this wasn't a one-off thing. it would have been bad enough to just 17 years, even if it was, this is somebody who deepened his soul, has this insurrectionist view. this view that he can take up arms against the united states and he can bring along his own private army to do so. so as the judge said, he's a danger. he's a danger to our democracy. if he were to let him out oven the street, he would be a threatening the very next day to take up up arms against the country. >> let me read you what your former colleagues wrote about him in their sentencing memo.

as this court is well aware, the justice system's reaction to january 6th bears the responsibility of impacting whether january 6th becomes an outlier or a water shed moment. such conduct and instigating an attack demands deterrence. it's critical that the court imposed significant sentences of incarceration on all the defendantings in this case to convey to those who would mobilize political violence in the future. that their actions will have consequences. there's possibly no greater factor that this court must consider. if there's no greater factor to consider, it seems like part of the conversation to ask how far they will go, do you think when they are asserting these sorts of things and sentencing memos for rhodes that they are actively pushing and pursuing charges for donald trump's role inciting january 6th? >> we know that that's part of

what jack smith is looking at. we know he has brought many people very close to the former president into the grand jury and obtained their testimony. we know that he's been doing a lot of different things to answer just this question. what's the former president's responsibility for the violence. we know the former president was very involved in the fraj lent election scheme. does he bear responsibility for violence. to start mer are risk garland's appointing to look into this and merrick garland's statements that the department of justice will not stop. it will continue to follow the facts in evidence, no matter how high they lead. these are all signals this the department if it feels like it has the evidence to prove crimes beyond a reasonable doubt will indict not only people chose to the former president, but the former president himself. that day hasn't come yet, but i do think those signals and here we are talking about somebody,

stewart rhodes did not physically go into the capitol, but he had a leadership role in enticing people to commit the acts of violence that they did and attack the capitol. this is an instance of showing that you don't have to be one of the people who physically assaulted a police officer to bear responsibility for january 6th. and he bears a big part of responsibility. i think others higher than him and you just illustrated some of his connections close to the former president, that's exactly what jack smith is looking at. how high up does the bearing of responsibility go. >> it is fair to say that there wasn't any public-facing evidence that anyone at doj was doing that before jack smith's appointment in that. mike pence hasn't been subpoenaed. there wasn't a lot of evidence

that the doj criminal investigation was looking at trump and his inner circle. is that fair? >> there was not a lot of outward evidence. you and i have talked about this before. i do believe within the department, they were starting to work that. they started with the low-hnging froout, the most readily provable crimes. and the other takes more time. it can be done sometimes through things that are covert that we don't see through subpoenas and search warrant that are not made public. so we are now at that point. we also know that before jack smith was even appointed, we had the deputy attorney general being public about investigating the fraudulent elector scheme. this is the scheme of having electors whose candidate trufr did not win in seven swing states go ahead and submit electoral ballots to mike pence as part of them being able to pressure him to either country

those ballots instead of the legitimate ballots or not count any ballots from those states or send it black to the states. that baim the narrative that drove the violence. as people are marching towards the capitol, they are talking about does mike pence have the courage to do this. when they out he did not, instruct her saying things like mike pence. so we know the department was looking even before jack smith was appointed, was looking at the narrative that the disinformation and the narrative and the scheme that drove the violence. >> it's important to understand what happened and when it happened because of this. the washington postreports that desantis says if he's elected president, he will consider pardons for the january 6th defendants. a host of the conservatives asked if he thinks the january 6th defendants, quote, deserve to have their cases examined by

a republican. and whether they would art don him. he said on his fist day in office, he would have folks that will get together and look at these cases. some of these cases, some people may have a technical violation of the law but if people do the same thing and don't get prosecuted at all, that's uneven application of justice. so we'll use the pardon power. the projection is remarkable. the unequal application of justice is that i haven't heard tim scott on this, but the two declared candidates for the republican nomination currently have the position that they are going to reopen all of these cases. >> stewart rhodes is an enemy of america. he's a terrorist. he's a trader. he's a seditionist and should be locked up for the rest of his life.

he's an immediate threat. he continues to say he will continue to attack america. he's not america's nelson mandela. he's osama bin laden. and the oath keepers are more like isis. he should be in guantanamo. so should anyone else in january 6th trying to violently overthrow our government and still continuing to do that. this is bigger than a political movement. it's an american insurgency. it's people who are organized to overthrow the government that are fuelled by leaders like stewart rhodes. he needs to be in prison. and it must be recognized as the number one national security threat in the same way osama bin laden was. >> it's not just you. you have a lot of authority to say so, but his threat to the homeland is domestic violent extremism.

you know who agreed with him? ted cruz. can you defeat a threat like that? with only one of america's two political parties? >> we're going to find out. i think we have to try to do everything we can beyond the political parties. this has to be put in front of the american public as a national security threat in the same way terrorism was after 9/11. 20 years we chased terrorism all around the world. we fought two wars on that. we can definitely mobilize our country against it. anyone who is a national security professional knows the threat. the country is just now waking up to it. we have to continue to remind them and make it the number one story. because it's that high. the stakes are that high. this is about the future of our national security. >> i want to bring mary back in. we have this conversation all

the time. this is your ongoing work. and i want to read from your sentencing letter that you wrote. rebutting rhodes' claims that the court should favorably consider his leadership. you wrote, rhodes molded the oath keepers into central players in a coalition of extremists that have grown into one of the most significant threats to national security. contrary to the revisionist history offered under his leadership, the oath keepers joined in several standoffs between a newly reenergized movement and the federal government, which refuelled by violent conspiracy theories abts the tyranny of the federal government under the leadership of then president obama. following the election of former president trump, rhodes increasingly aligned himself with the most violent and militant figuresen the far right and began to threaten trump oes a points with civil war years before the insurrection on january 6th. it has its roots in recent american history to timothy

mcveigh, who has roots in being radicalized. and donald trump announced his new campaign in waco. how do we deal with the head of the fish? >> i mean, this is the challenge. these sentiments have been in our country for decades and decades. but what is new is we have leaders like the former president, who is now the presumptivive nominee for the republican party, who are willing to engage with this insurrectionist ideology. this antigovernment ideology, which is so interesting because donald trump was a president. he was part of government. but his tenure was the hallmark of it was essentially antigovernment. he called government the deep state. so what's so different here, we have seen it play out time and time again over the last several years is that the extreme right, they listened to that. they listened to donald trump. they listened to other elected officials in congress and in the

states. and feel like they have permission to go ahead and engage in assaults not just on the u.s. capitol, but assaults on state capitols. we saw that in 2020 during the pandemic. we have seen that in recent years. and seen assaults to just be sure that the record would be corrected. because rhodes wasing to get leniency for his leadership of this antigovernment group. i know the judge is aware of that history. because he's a smart man that pays attention. i thought it was important to put on the record for in that sentencing in the docket of that criminal case, the history of stewart rhodes, which unfortunately is something that donald trump seems to condone. >> i want to piggy back on what mary said. you have one party that's an

apoll gist for this insurrection and idea that are using rhetoric to excuse it. ronald reagan said government is the problem, it's not the solution. but then donald trump lights a fuse to that and engages people to use violence to undermine the government. toif go back to our point. the point is the federal government doesn't do everything right. but to have people who want to physically overthrow it and you have one party that supports that, those people are aiding and abetting terrorism. so you have to make a choice. >> let me just -- they are refusing to condemn it, which we go back through mary and experts in extremism, the absence of any condemnation. >> donald trump has already said that he would pardon those people. patriots. it was sunday in the park. that fuels all those people. >> we have to anemic sneak in a quick break.

when ke come back, the sentencing comes a day after the department of homeland security warned all of us, law enforcement and the public, of the ongoing threat of domestic violent extreism leading in the election season. we'll continue our conversation about countering extremism next. lirt in the program, a strict new ban on abortion curtails access to reproductive care. it's the latest example of abortion rights under assault by republicans all across the country. we continue after the break, don't go anywhere. continue aft, n'dot go anywhere. how to grow more vibrant flowers: step one: feed them with miracle-gro shake 'n feed. that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow. progressive makes it easy to save with a quick commercial auto quote online. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. really? get a quote at progressivecommercial.com. at t-mobile, your business will save over $1000 bucks.

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we're back with the panel.

a very spirited conversations in the breaks. i want to pull you into something we started talking about and that's yesterday's bulletin from the department of homeland security. it says, in the coming months, dhs expects the threat environment to remain tightened and that individuals maybe motivated to silence by perceptions of the 2024 general election cycle. the national terrorism advisory system said adding this, legislative or judicial decisions pertaining to issues may motivate the attackerer rs. tell us what that means. it's so expansive in scope. how do you protect against that? >> i have to say when i read that bulletin earlier today, i thought pretty much they are saying everything there's a danger everywhere that you look. our faith-based communities, our lgbtq communities, public spaces, schools, government buildings, critical infrastructure and the threat is domestic and the threat is also

foreign. so i appreciate that dhs put out this terrorism report, but it does kind of begs the question, what is safe now? and i think that's because we're at this precarious time. in the last year, we have seen north mouse uptick in violence against the lgd community. and i would say right now, that's or the sort of like a way they have gone from culture issue to culture issue. so when they don't have something pending like claims of a fraudulent election, then they find something else. and here's the lgbtq community. they need to keep mobilizing. keep people mad about things. keep demonizing others to continue to bring in new followers in preparation for the next thing that will be in outrage. this is setting the scenes for leading into the 2024 election.

we have had donald trump already declared candidate. reach out on several times including before he was indicted in manhattan suggesting that if he were to be charged with crimes, people should riot. and i worry that he's going to do the same thing if he's indicted again, which i'm expecting likely to happen. and now happily, his calls for violence in new york pretty much fell flat. it didn't happen. but don't know that will be the case everywhere. so i think that this dhs bulletin shows really what a precare use time we're this. it could be just about any political, ideological cause. it could be reaction to a legislative decision, it could be reactions to judicial decisions, it could be reaction to prosecutorial decisions. >> the 9/11 commission did get to the bottom of nempb. nempb. we said how many signs did we ignore? every day we're covering the

signs. there are little oklahoma cities, there are little wacos. happening on our capitol every single day. and this is the time for us to look at the signs and respond to the signs and the way we wish we did 9/11. it shouldn't take a building getting blown up or stewart rhodes being released. the stuff we're hearing today, that's how immediate it is. i think we can't count on the democrats alone to defend this. it's got to be the fbi, the national security apparatus because they are already in this and putting it out to the public saying we're concerned about it. we need you to be concerned about it. you have to get involved now and fight this for the national security threat it is. >> i agree, treat it like we treated terrorism after 9/11. we would be able to do something about it. we saw during obama's term, and we talked about this a bunch of times, the rise of white

extremism of illegal ilitias. it's stopped after that. and trump reignited it. and that is the problem that the rhetoric is also so bad. the failure of people to condemn this is almost like supporting it. >> that's how they hear it. >> i can't forgive someone for not condemning it. so i agree the democrats have to be stronger about it. i think there's always some reluctance because the very power that people are threateninged by and protest that you use against them can maybe make the fire grow even higher, but i also think the ting thing about the rhodes verdict, there has to be accountability for those insurrectionist actions. people have to realize this is not something you can support in any way. >> 18 years is not enough. someone argued the penalty for sedition is death. and that is a conversation that the country has to have. we have to have this out in the

open. we wouldn't let osama bin laden walk in 18 years. why this guy? we have to understand how the states are and hold all our leaders accountable to keep us safe. kooep all of us safe. >> the importance of a bulletin, it's only one group that isn't listed as being targeted. and it does seem to invite the public into the conversation. it is uncomfortable, but it is uncomfortable for our politicians as well. so until someone has to start the chicken and the egg. what came first? it feels like the national security agencies are begging for some engagement. so i appreciate all of you engaging with us on it here. thank you all so much for spending time with us. when we come back, abortion acess under assault. south carolina becoming the latest state to enact a strict abortion ban. what the indiana doctor who

helped and treated and provided care for a 10-year-old victim of rape face disciplinary action and a hearing that's been going on. we'll bring you those developments after a short break. brinyog u those developments after a short break. getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪ (woman) with verizon's new myplan, i get exactly what i want. ask your provider for cologuard. and only pay for what i need. (man) now i'm in charge... ...of my plan. (vo) introducing myplan from verizon. you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. and it all starts at just $30. it's your verizon. (water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? uh...

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what in the world are women going to do? we know that south carolina has a very high maternal mortality rate. so my guess is a lot of southern women and a lot of black women are going to die.

>> they are. and a lot of women are going to die. a lot of girls are going to die. the blood is going to be on the hands of the republican party. and their need to control us with is ridiculous bans that are harmful and dangerous and hurtful. >> wow, that was mya mccloud warning our colleague about the terrible and disastrous consequence trs women in america. the six-week abortion ban passed on tuesday. a bill this today the governor signed into law. the law bans all worgss after six weeks. it's a time before the mast vast majority of women goes into effect immediately. today's signing follows a filibuster in the state senate where mccloud and other senators from both paries opposed it.

tom davis, the republican state senator who previously backed the female senators but voted to end debate made this statement in "the washington post." at some point in time, the right of the state to see the unborn child does take press dependent over the women's right to her body. with this ban in south carolina along with two more 12-week bans, one in nebraska and one in north carolina, the republican-led assembly voted into law by overriding the veto last week, the options for women in america with us especially women in the south to access health care are diminishing quickly ask almost completely. the ap reports abortion is severely restricted in much of the south, including bans throughout pregnancy in alabama, arkansas, kentucky, louisiana, mississippi, oklahoma, tennessee, texas and west virginia. georgia it's allowed only in the

first six weeks. a wave of newly aprued abortion restrictions in the eastern united states have sent providers scrambling. the president of planned parenthood says, there's really going to be no way for the abortion proviing ecosystem to manage it all. but it's not just the south that has felt the crush of the abortion rights in a post dobbs america. today an indiana board made up of six doctors and one attorney heard testimony that indianapolis doctor kaitlyn bernard should face disciplinary action after she spoke publicly about providing an abortion to a 10-year-old victim of rape from ohio. the 10-year-old sought her help when a six-week abortion went into effect. immediately after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade. that ban is on hold as the lawsuit plays out. joining our coverage, the news

is almost too bleak to stare at every day. let's take the two headlines separately. dr. kaitlyn facing action for carrying out her duty as the doctors helping the most helpless among us, a child victim of rape. >> i mean, it can't get more grim. uh-uh feel like i've been coming on your show for awhile and the stories are getting more and more distoep yan. this is a high profile story that happened quickly. the prosecution and i think this is the important part of the story. the prosecution and of doctors and providers, it's not an accident. it's done intentionally. when the gop extremists say this is about preserving life and this is about the sanctity of life, it's a bold-faced lie.

when they say they are not going after vud ertz they don't want to persuade providers. this is all about intimidating. it's chasing them out of the state. and making them be silent and and such a hero and she refused to stay silent. she wouldn't provide the care. they are trying to make an example of her and once again wildly overstepping. >> republicans have a hard time allowing her to be real. i think their responses was this wasn't real. the victim wasn't real. this case wasn't real. this doesn't happen. republicans are struggling with being opt the wrong side of 93% of americans. some of the bans that eliminate exceptions for life of mother, 87% of all americans who oppose the extreme bans that lumbar nat exceptions in the case of rape and incest. and 81% of americans who think abortion should be legal in most occasions, those are the

numbers. and here's why. i want to show you something really disturbing. but again, we will not look away. the 12-week ban, this is senator megan hunt. >> their chance of the out there, i just got it. they are chancing one more vote to save our lives. they are chancing one more vote to save our lives. whether you're talking about -- we all know what's going on with this bill and what you put on to it. whether we're talking about mothers with devastating fetal deegz who you think should be forced to carry a baby to term that has a brain outside of its head. what is wrong with you? >> her speaking out, the lawsuit brought by amanda and another plaintiff in texas are speaking

out. the right aired and overstepped dramatically in thinking this was about life. the lives that are most desperately wanted are the ones that are being talked about there. pregnancies that are not viable. babies that wouldn't survive birth, and yet it's happening every single day in this country because of the republican bans on abortion. >> this is right. this is never about life. the same states that are banning abortion don't take care of the kids that are actually born into those states. this is about power and control over women. i think it's going back to kaut lint's story, the republicans want to continue to focus on this. this is a 10-year-old assault victim who is pregnant. a young girl, now in indiana,

you couldn't get. the attorney general who is prosecuting bernard calls her an abortion activist massacre raiding as a doctor. he's pursuing an agenda opposed to understanding that she showed compassion to this 10-year-old girl who needed her help. this is about right wing republican politics. i can't agree with you more that the stories are going to continue to grow. we just saw in texas now 13 people, 13 women suing the state of texas because what is happening in that state. and the tragedy that many pregnant women are facing and doctors who simplien can't take care of them. the republican party does not seem to care.

>> there's no reporting about the immediate consequences. we always try to balance the conversations about what will happen to women today before politics catches up with it. a quick break. we'll be right back. it. a quick break. we'll be rightac bk.

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per. opponents said the high ma term mortality rates would worsen under the ban. on tuesday senators who oppose the bill noted that it required doctors who provide abortions to rape or insist would notify local sheriffs and provide their address. this some cases the same address as the alleged perpetrator. this is probably a deterring thing to keep her from having the abortion. that was a republican who said that. now this was a bipartisan effort to oppose the ban. republicans overrode that effort. this will be the consequence for not just all women, just all black wum, but women victims of rape. >> this goes back to the point cecil made about power and control. we know that these abortion bans are about power and control. we know they are about controlling wum's bodies. we know there's an amount of state violence for black women

and our bodies. so it's not -- it's shocking, but not totally surprising that we see these rates of violence against women and children in these states with these bans rising. there's a correlation between domestic violence cases and sexual assault cases. ask it's honestly becoming incredibly hard to be a woman and, in particular, a woman of color in most of the south, which is disturbing considering where most of the communities live. >> i'm going to come back to this, but some news has just broken about one of the most powerful republicans in the state of texas. the republican attorney texas. the republican attorney general ken paxton has been recommended for impeachment by the texas house committee led by republicans. there's a suggestion from the investigation done by this committee of potential crimes. there are a lot of alleged

abuses of his office. you know, what is it, absolute power corrupts absolutely? looks like there's something awry with republicans in texas. >> i mean, to put it mildly, it's incredible that he's still in office. and it's -- it's so horrifying because of course he's one of the biggest perpetrators of the assault on women. and so it just -- it's incredible that women in the state have to live under ken paxton and the folks that are in charge. i just -- i have to -- so, a little bit of joy here, but the thing to remember, nicolle, is women are going to still wake up tomorrow in texas and have no rights and have no rights. and so i think we can't ignore that. i have to tell you, i have been reading all the stories of the women in texas who sued the state, and one of them, kirsten

hogan, who her water broke at 19 weeks, so she went to the hospital. clearly the pregnancy was not sustainable. but the hospital told her that she needed to stay in the hospital because if she left and the baby died, she could be criminally prosecuted. so she stayed for five days, had to stay in the hospital until she delivered a stillborn child. this is -- her words for incredible. she said, i was made to feel less than human, like i was a criminal. this is what is happening every single day in the state of texas, and as many sad -- i'm so glad we didn't have to look at your map today, nicolle, because if you look at the map of the country, it's the entire south of this country, and women are going to have nowhere to go. >> the reason i think those women's stories are so riveting and horrific is because a lot of

women have been through this, and they've grieved silently, right? it's one of the most horrific and heinous tragedies that you can experience, the loss of your child who is far enough long that you can contemplate news like that. these are babies desperately wanted by their moms and dads. being treated inhumanly is the second and ongoing and lasting trauma for these women. thank you so much to both of you for always keeping these women in our conversations and top of mind. thank you both. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. 'll be righ.

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that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow. i have the honor of introducing my nominee to be the next chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general charles q. brown jr. general, welcome. general brown is a warrior, descended from a proud line of warriors. he knows what it means to be in the thick of battle and how to keep your cool when things get hard, like when you're f-16 is on fire. while general brown is a proud butt kicking american airman, first and always, he's always been an operational leader in the joint force. he gained respect across every service, from those who have seen him in action and have come to depend on his judgment. >> president joe biden's nominee to be the next chairman of the joint chiefs, general charles q.

brown, currently the chief of staff of the air force. if confirmed he'd become the second black man to hold the title along with colin powell. we will be right back. we will b. ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪ okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. everyone: woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals. enter the $10,000 nourishing moments giveaway. up at 2:00am again? tonight, try pure zzzs all night. enter the $10,000

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