i'm alicia menendez in for alex tonight. tonight, we got major news in special counsel jack smith's criminal investigation into former president, donald trump 's, alleged mishandling of hundreds of classified government documents after he

left office. now, you think about investigation, i'm gonna bet your mind goes straight to the events of august 8th last year. you would likely think of the fbi's court authorized search of mar-a-lago. and of the 100 plus classified documents that the fbi found on the premises that. but that is not tonight's news. no, tonight's news centers on a period of time, about two months before that. june 2nd, the events of that day may be key to jack smith's case. tonight, the washington post described the events that took place that day as being of particular importance to investigators in the classified documents case. we had previously known that on may 11th of last year, trump's attorneys received a grand jury subpoena seeking all documents bearing classification marking still in trump's possession. then, we knew that almost a month later, june 3rd, an attorney from the department of justice, and three fbi agents met with trump's lawyers at mar-a-lago to collect those

documents from trump's team. now we also already knew that at some point, between those two dates, boxes of documents had been moved around mar-a-lago on the presidents orders. and we knew that the special counsel put that on video. what we did not know, until tonight, was this. the washington post reports tonight, the boxes of documents were moved into a storage area by trump's body man, walt now to, and another employee. the day before the justice department came to get the documents. that does not seem like a coincidence. quote, on the evening of june 2nd, at the same day the two employees moved the boxes, a lawyer for trump contacted the justice department and said officials there were welcome to visit mar-a-lago and pick up classified documents related to the subpoena. tonight, the new york times ads, the other employee was a maintenance worker, and that he and trump's body man moved the boxes of documents back into the storage room before trump lawyer, evan corcoran,

conducted his own search of the room that day. so, trump ordered his employees to move boxes of documents back into a storage room for his own lawyer, evan corcoran, conducted a search. later that same day, corcoran called the doj, told them it was fine to swing on by. the following day, doj officials came by to pick up documents. as well as a signed attestations written by corcoran, signed by trump lawyer, christina bobb, confirming that. to the best of her knowledge, a diligent search had been conducted, that they had turned over everything they found. of course, we now know that was not the case. the fbi later found more than 100 more classified documents on the premises, even more at a storage site, months after that. one of the key questions of this investigation is, was that obstruction of justice? was all the weird back and forth, moving of boxes, evidence that trump trying not to give these documents back? was him ordering these boxes

moved before he had his lawyer searched the room, and him trying to trick his own lawyers. the scale, the sheer amount of classified documents trump had, the thing that makes trump's documents investigation such a stark contrast from president biden's, or even vice president pence's investigations? is the appearance of obstruction. all signs indicate that biden and pence immediately, and fully, cooperate with authorities after being informed that classified documents in their possession. the same simply cannot be said for trump. the investigation into trump here is a criminal investigation. the bar for proving obstruction, it is high. and we're gonna get some expert legal help unpacking all of this in just a second. the events of june 2nd, they weren't the only thing we learned about today. no, we also learned that jack smith's office has gathered evidence that even before trump received the subpoena in may, he had lots of officials have dubbed, a dress rehearsal. moving government documents that he did not want to relinquish. we learned that smith's office had been told, by more than one

witness, that trump at times kept classified documents out in the open in his florida office, where others could see them. he sometimes showed them to people, including aides and visitors. you put all that reporting together, certainly looks like jack smith is forming a case here. now, nbc news has not independently confirmed any of this reporting. former president trump, of course, denies he did anything wrong. but this certainly does not look good for the former president. it does seem, time is not on his side either. tonight, bloomberg reports, this investigation is coming to a close, and that jack smith is poised to announce possible criminal charges in the days or weeks after memorial day. joining us now, lisa reuben, msnbc legal analyst, and melissa murray. she's a professor of law at nyu. and an msnbc legal analyst. ladies, what a treat to have you both here tonight. we will get to the bloomberg reporting on the possible timeline of an indictment in a minute, that would be our lead

on any other night. we have this reporting, from the washington post, and the new york times. a day before doj prosecutors show up at mar-a-lago, trump having aids move boxes into a storage unit. what strikes you? >> what strikes me is that evan corcoran was used by the former president, perhaps, others in his orbit. we know, from prior reporting, the boxes were actually moved out of that same storage area, after the subpoena was served on may 11th. it now appears that someone, possibly former president trump, took documents out of them. move the boxes back in on june 2nd, then that's when evan corcoran went in, conducted his search, and that evening, called it a crime of justice and said, you guys should come by tomorrow and pick these up. that's because when the department of justice said the subpoena, they said, in lieu of showing up to the grand jury, you can let us know where you found the documents, and we will come and get them from you, along with that signed a certification that we now know was prepared and signed on june 3rd.

>> talk to me about him potentially doing his own lawyer. >> again, making attorneys get attorneys. obviously, evan corcoran is a legal professional. he's taken an oath, he has professional obligations. he cannot lie for the former president. so, the moving, the reshuffling of these documents, again, that seems like an attempt, we don't know if it's the case, it seems very much like an attempt to allow evan corcoran to say, in all honesty, he knows that there's nothing here, even though we know that now donald trump may have directed some to move some those documents out of a place where evan corcoran wasn't going to do a search. say to the department, everything was clear. so, again, the math isn't mapping here. you don't move those kinds of documents. around with such -- frequently, and that's a look like you're trying to do something fun. that's the tail door here. it just looks really suspicious. >> talk to us about this dress

rehearsal idea. the >> idea of address what comes from an opinion we haven't seen yet, a sealed opinion about the crime fraud exception. got to the legal doctrine that allows the court to pierce an attorney client provides, and this, case judge beryl howell of the d. c. district court, apparently found in a lengthy opinion, that evan corcoran had apparently been duped by donald trump. and that there was an enough evidence of possible obstruction by the former president, as well as retention, unlawfully, of classified documents. to justify piercing that privilege. that's the context in which the phrase, dress rehearsal, showed up. she said essentially, the way in which trump and his lawyers had interacted with the national archives was the dress for herschel. remember, alicia, the first time trump was notified that the national archives wanted these documents back, it wasn't last, year it was in may of 2021. he has been playing footsie, essentially, with federal government, since then about the existence and location of

these documents. >> i'm adaptable, dress rehearsals, something very different to me. i want to come back to you on this concept of obstruction, the reporting would seem to bolster the idea that that's the key element the prosecutors looking at in the washington post reports, quote, people familiar with the situation, said smith's teams believe that uncovered a handful of distinct episodes of obstructionist conduct. that stuck out to me, episodes. >> again, more than one, and i'll just say, if you are dance moms fan, abby lee miller did have a federal case brought against her for similar kinds of machinations. it's never the crime itself, it's always the cover-up, moving things around. trying to obstruct the process, that's undergoing here. again, we've seen this play out in popular culture, a lot of different ways. think back to that movie, the firm, when tom cruise is that lawyer who's caught up in a terrible law firm that has ties with the mafia. and he says the fbi agent, yes, i have been mail fraud here. it's not sexy. but it has teeth. it's the same with obstruction, is it sexy? is it the same as proving that donald trump sold these documents or disseminate them to people who have interest against the united states? certainly, it's not that sexy.

obstruction is still a federal crime and it sticks. >> it's part and parcel of having a complete disregard for democracy. i'm struck by this idea of the retention of documents. the obstruction piece of this. also, this idea that he potentially had the documents out, was sharing them with other people, how does that factor in, legally? >> it's a separate violation. the espionage act, under 18 usc seven 83, for those following at home, e of that statute, basically prohibits sharing documents that you have, in unauthorized and all of unlawfully. and then handing them or disclosing their contents to someone else. we have known for sometime, donald trump unlawfully retained them. that's another violation of the espionage act. but here, when we're talking about sharing its contents, that something different in kind and degree. if you're showing them with a, it's visitors, possible political donors, or even the foreign countries that we understand of interest to jack smith's team of prosecutors, with respect to donald trump's business dealings.

>> one of the questions that we've been asking, here who is it that's talking? and it would seem, from this reporting, in addition to the body man who is moving the documents, who also had a maintenance worker who's cooperating with prosecutors. what is it that maintenance worker could offer prosecutors? >> well, from what we understand from the reporting, the maintenance worker is one of the people on the videotapes. seen moving. it so, he, if it is a, is obviously someone who's already in some kind of legal jeopardy. he's actually there, there's evidence of him doing this. he has a lot of incentive, if it is a, to show the prosecutors that he has no intent to move documents. he doesn't know that these are classified documents, so, there's a lot of incentive for that person to work with the prosecutors to provide as much information in. being on the inside, the kind of person who sees things, who works in the -- but is necessarily a hot shot, a big guy at mar-a-lago. means, that they probably observe things that might go

unnoticed by other people. and are really in a position to provide the kind of inside baseball knowledge that you probably could not get anywhere else. >> the other big news tonight, folks at home don't see, we were on our editorial call, officer, that lisa went missing. it was because there is breaking news from bloomberg. she had to run downstairs to be on television. and analyze this. the fact that we know have potentially, some sense of a timeline is a big development here. >> it is a big development. it dovetails with the washington post reporting, and a crucial way tonight. the washington post, in addition to providing these details about june 2nd and third, points out another key date. that's may 5th, that's the last time the grand jury and jack smith's investigation met. it's the day after matthew kelly marie senior and junior, key employees of the trump organization, involved in the collection and maintenance of the surveillance teams, on which walt nauta, and the main as workers removing the boxes, testified before that grand jury. grand jury hasn't met since may 5th, that's just one more indication that the bloomberg

reporting is likely true. that this investigation is wrapping up, and that potential charges could be in the works for donald trump and others. >> and trump's lawyers requesting a meeting with a. g. garland. that's a sign there's likely an indictment in the off, typically something that's coming down the pike, the defendant, prospective defendant, has an opportunity to speak with the prosecutors and advance to persuade. that there's nothing to see here. and it seems like this was donald trump's hail mary attempt to get merrick garland to get off this case. >> are you surprised by this time? >> no. not really. i mean, as melissa said earlier, there are sexier cases than this. this is straightforward. and the panoply of evidence, and types of evidence that have been collected here, that lead to potential obstruction charge, is really substantial. and we've been seeing drips and drabs of reporting, indicating that this is coming for sometime. no, i'm not surprised by the timing. i think what people are

surprised by, this will likely happen before any other indictment, including from fulton county district attorney, fani willis, in georgia. >> the no in sync really gave me such life. thank you both for being here. lisa reuben, melissa murray, what a treat. we have a lot more to get to tonight, including with the stroke of a pen, an entire swath of america has now lost an important, writer gun explain. plus, a 2024 republican primary is underway. quickly turning into a race to the bottom. jen psaki joins us to break it all down. after advil. back to work. what about your neck? it's good to go. before advil. advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action.

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>> it is now day two of the rhonda santa's presidential campaign. after a disastrous glitch played rollout yesterday, desantis spent today trying to turn the page, by posting on his rivalry with former president donald trump. in an interview with the new hampshire radio station this morning, desantis attacked trump for, of all things, being too soft on immigration. >> he's moving to the left, attacking me, for example, for opposing an immigration amnesty that he supported when he was president for illegal aliens. and i did oppose it, because i don't support amnesty. >> okay, what governor desantis is calling amnesty, is a 2018 proposal, by trump, offering a pathway to citizenship for

undocumented immigrants brought to this country as children. often referred to as daca recipients, or dreamers. but the price for that sliver of sanity would've been a host of draconian cuts to legal immigration and harsh new border enforcement policies. ultimately, that trump proposal went nowhere. but now, desantis is rewriting history, to position himself to the right of a men who destroyed families by separating migrant children from their parents. when it comes to dreamers, desantis doesn't exactly have the track record to backup his tough talk. just this month, desantis lost a fight in his home state, to deny dreamers instate tuition to florida colleges. still, desantis has made a point of emphasizing his plans for new immigration crackdown. and every interview is given since announcing his candidacy. despite his new willingness to attack donald trump, desantis still find himself defending the former president amid trump 's ongoing legal challenges. today, the governor told another conservative radio host, he would be open to pardoning trump, and the january 6th capitol rioters, if elected.

>> do you think the january 6th defendants deserve to have their cases examined by a republican president? and if trump, let's say, get charged with federal offenses and you are the president of the united states, would you look at potentially pardoning trump himself based on the evidence that might emerge of those charges? >> the doj and fbi have been weaponized. on day one, i will have folks that will get together and look at all these cases, who people are victims of weaponization or political targeting, and will be aggressive at issuing pardons. >> desantis's strategy is declared candidate is to ignore or excuse trump's biggest vulnerabilities. and differentiate himself by offering a cooler, darker forum of trumpism, if that could even exist. what would that mean for the country, as the republican primary contest officially kicks off? sorting us now, jen psaki,

former white house press secretary, and host of inside with jen psaki on msnbc. jen, desantis thinks he can position himself to the right of trump on things like immigration, abortion, he's aligning with trump on 16, which would seem to be like the most obvious place to begin to draw a distinction, and here he was, just tonight, in an interview on newsmax. >> some of the things he's been attacking me on, i've been a little surprised at. he's attacking me from the left, that really wasn't the donald trump from 2015, and 2016, he was a hard charger, leaning in on all the issues. very edgy on conservative issues. and was part of the reason he did so well. but when he's taken disney side against me, i just kind of wonder, okay, i getting wants to hit me, but don't take the side of a multinational corporation that wants to sexualize kids. he's also hitting me against voting we against immigration amnesty. >> so, lots of lies in their. first, will that work to sway trump voters and republican primary? jen, if it does, and you get desantis as the republican nominee, what's that then gonna

do to him with voters in a general? >> well, it certainly wouldn't help him in a general election. running to the right of trump on some of these issues, or even to the right in a bizarre way, for example, being on the other side of disney. who hates mickey and minnie mouse? i guess ron desantis. but it would not help him in a general election. of course, he's trying to find his path. trying to find the way to contrast with trump. now, the truth is, there's another path that may not prove to be successful. but would be to be a more mainstream, less insane, right wing candidate. who could've had the bio in the back on to do. he chose not to. he's chosen, so far, not to take that path. will it work in a primary? we don't really know yet. there's no evidence it's going to work. she has only dropped in the polls, next to trump since november, when he's probably at his at his peak at this point. there is still a long way to go. so far, he has not shown that he knows what his pathway is. and when that is going to work to bring trump voters to his

side, consistently. >> to that point, today you had the santa saying, who look at potentially pardoning january 6th defendants, it seems that -- >> intra. >> and trump. which also speaks to the fact that, you have his campaign saying, well, his polling numbers aren't exactly where we'd want them to be. but that's because the base feel sympathy toward trump. is that good spin? bad spin? what do you make of that, as their defense for their poll numbers? >> well, look, when you're down in the polls, you're always gonna try to find some spin, and being down in the polls never really great spin. that's true. no matter what party urine. but i think the challenge for the desantis team, is that so far, they've hit their peak in november. after the november elections. when, of course, governor desantis won by a large margin. in florida.

and he was seen as the candidate that many republicans who didn't think they could quite stand trump really they put all their fears aside and they projected on to him what they wanted him to be. so far, he has not become what they wanted him to be. in many ways, he's a paper tiger. he looks good on paper, less insane the trump, perhaps. maybe. so far, he hasn't delivered on that. the challenge for them, is this a guy who can store a room in iowa? you can get people going in new hampshire in south carolina. not just about his bizarre and horrendous announcement last night. that was said, it was a big night on twitter, of course. laughing about. it's about, what happens now. he raises a lot of money. can he light the fire under activist in the republican party. we haven't seen no evidence to date that they have the political skill set to know how to do that. there is a long way to go. >> it strikes me, jen, that the bidens reelect message, right out of the gate, what about

freedom. more freedom, not less. one party giving writes, another party taking them away. freedom was supposed to be ron desantis's core argument, keeps bragging about florida as a bastion of freedom, unless you're a pregnant woman, a teacher. has he already ceded the freedom frame, which he wanted to be his tibetan. >> well, i think, in part, the biden team, my old colleagues over there, in the campaign, are trying to seize the freedom frame from republicans. it has long been the republican frame. remember, freedom fries, right? freedom from the restrictions of government, that has long been a republican frame. so, why i think this could work, and why it may be working already, nobody likes the rights being taken away. their rights in access to health care. abortion rights. the right to have clean drinking water. for their kids to go to school

safely. that is, kind of, the feeling with some of these republican policies, certainly, a lot of what we've seen, from the desantis agenda. make america -- make america florida. means then on abortion after six weeks. it means concealed carry is allowed. that means you can't have books. that means diversity is not something that will be championed in the country. that's what he's running on. that is taking away rights from people in the country. even if you're not a hard or progressive or a hard-core democrat, that may not sound great to people. >> let's talk about making america florida again, desantis to try to campaign about making for the conservative bastion. now, he has to campaign in other gop led states. nbc news reporting, desantis has encountered spirited pushback from competitive fellow governors and gop officials who believe that their states have done just as much, if not more, to advance a conservative agenda. the example that sticks out to me, --

pulling him on this idea that the initial 12-week abortion ban in florida did not go far enough. of course, you saw them rolling out their nine-week abortion ban. if the bulk of the next year's run desantis and donald trump and a host of other republicans, trying to out-trump each other, for lack of a better term. how does that change the contours of going into a general election. if that is most of what voters have been exposed to? >> well, that's only a benefit to my old colleagues in the white house, who are trying to get current president, joe biden, reelected. a lot of these positions are extreme. extreme in the country. not just in a democratic electorate, among independents. even many republicans. 58% of the country. thinks of people have access,

and the choice to have an abortion if they want. too that's not just democrats. that includes republicans. that's the national poll, nbc, the recent nbc news poll. the vast majority of people in this country, overwhelming majority, i think there should be unive, and more should be done to address gun violence. people think should have access to health care. these positions, and people are not supportive across the country,rsally, election denying. we've seen that play out in 2022. we've also seen that play out even in recent months. i mean, the kentucky secretary of state, just last week, defeated and one run against election deniers. these right-wing, the farther right wing extremists, the better that is for joe biden. and that's, i think, how you see it if you're sitting in the white house right now. >> jen psaki, former white house press secretary and host of inside with jen psaki on msnbc. jim, thanks so much for joining us. still more to come tonight, including the leader of the oath keepers gets the harshest punishment to date for his role in january 6th attack on the

capital. what it was, how he reacted, it's all coming out. plus, this is the key to south carolina republicans passing out an extreme abortion ban seems to be doing the run around around women. we'll see, next. hey, i'm a palm springs hotel. i got the desert air, sun-kissed pools, and shady hideaways. i'm looking for someone who can decide on a friday night that a one night commitment is a fine idea. what do you say? meet me at hotels.com ♪ they need their lawn back fast and you need scotts turf builder rapid grass. it grows grass 2 times faster than just seed alone. giving you a stronger lawn. smell that freedom, eh? pick up a bag at lowe's today. feed your lawn. feed it.

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2021, when south carolina's republican governor henry mcmaster set a six-week abortion line into law. he set that law blocking abortions before people even know they're pregnant. in less than an hour at the state house, hundreds of people packed the state house in the middle of the pandemic to watch, the ink barely dry before they got a federal judge to block the law temporarily. just dispatch entering the states dream court agreed, the only woman on the south carolina supreme court cast the deciding vote and the opinion striking down a six-week abortion ban is unconstitutional. that is how it went down the first time. south carolina republicans tried to enact a six-week abortion ban and failed. but today it worked. governor mcmaster signed a six -week abortion ban into law two days after the state senate centered over. this time he signed behind closed doors, only five republican lawmakers watching. no media loud. in fact, the only images we have of the bill signing came from mick's office. this time the state senate passed the bill, sent it to the governor after defeating the

five women in the chamber who attempted to filibuster the ban. just like last time, planned parenthood, other local providers sued immediately. but this time the state supreme court is not expected to rule in their favor because female justice who wrote the january opinion overturning the last six-week ban retired. the republican-led state legislature voted to replace her with a male justice, may he south carolina the only state in this country with an all-male supreme court. this new challenge works its way up to the state supreme court, odds are a six-week ban will survive. so people of south carolina line may be stuck with a law that bans abortions before six weeks of pregnancy, they try to treat both residents and out of state patients. they're stuck with a law that gives victims of rape or incest the 12 weeks of pregnancy to

get an abortion but requires the doctors to notify a local sheriffs to provide victims addresses. that's the bill governor mcmaster signed into law this morning, restricting access to abortion, in a state that until now had become an unlikely destination for women in the south. as a result, this is how abortion access looks right now in this country. with the exception of virginia, the entire south is now effectively gone dark. coming up with the debt ceiling deadline just days away, new reporting tonight, the white house and house republican leaders are closing in on a deal to keep the u.s. from defaulting on its bills. plus, the longest sentenced date for a january 6th defendant, one who never even entered the capitol. stay with us.

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(water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? ♪ are there animals living underwater? ♪ is the ocean warm? yeah, it can be very warm. ♪ you were made to remember some days forever. we were made to help you find the best way there. ♪ >> it's been nearly two and a half years since members of the oath keepers charged into the u.s. capitol building in a military style staff formation. today a federal judge gave the leader of that far-right militia group the longest sentence in a january 6th criminal case so far. stewart rhodes will spend 18 years in prison for his role mobilizing the oath keepers in a far-reaching plot to attack the capitol to keep the loser of the 2020 election, donald

trump, in power. he was convicted on the charge of seditious conspiracy. among other crimes with feral fellow oath keeper kelly meggs. meggs was the one leading that staff on the capitol steps on january six. he received a separate sentence today. rhodes sentencing, the former army paratrooper and disbarred lawyer showed no remorse for his actions, calling himself a political prisoner, asserting that, quote, like trump, my only crime is opposing those who are destroying our country. but the d. c. district judge who presided over her trial rejected those claims, saying, quote, you are not a political prisoner, mr. rhodes. that is not why you are here. it is not because of your beliefs. the reality is, as you sit here today, and as we heard you speak, the moment you were released we will be paired to take up arms against our government. he added, i never have said this to anyone i have sentenced. you pose an ongoing threat and peril to our democracy and the fabric of this country. i dare say we all now hold our

collective breaths when election is approaching. will we have another january 6th again? that remains to be seen. joining us now, former d. c. chief of homeland security and intelligence. thank you so much for being here. how significant is stewart rhodes 18 year sentence? will that be a meaningful deterrent? >> it is significant and it is a victory for the justice department, clearly. they've done a great job in convicting not just the foot shoulders of january january 6th but the captain. the lead of the problems are two important pieces of that and in terms of deterring future extremism, i don't think we are seeing that, specifically on the online space or in social media. in fact, the reason why stewart rhodes is able to say in court that he is a political prisoner is because he is parroting many

on the right in terms of elected officials, even on the hill, saying that him and other january six defendants are political prisoners as opposed to convicted felons, which is what they are. >> and you spoken with other intelligence experts who talk about the fact that these groups have gone underground, have become harder to track. it strikes me that in previous cases, previous january six cases, judge amit mehta had denied requests to apply a terrorism enhanced meant. but he allowed it inroads charges. as significant as that? >> the prosecution asked for the terrorism enhanced mint which would've got stewart rhodes up to 25 years. i think that is important because, as you read the jarry six report and you see the select committee, this was an act of domestic terror terrorism, full stop. this fits the exact definition of domestic terrorism. and so if we're not going to charge people who tried to overthrow our government using violence with domestic

terrorism, i don't know what we're going to use that statute for. it's unfortunate that he wasn't convicted, that that add on was it applied to him, but the fact they brought it up and the prosecution wanted to use that, i think is a sign for those who may want to commit political violence to the future. >> to your point about the way in which some of this is being repeated, kentucky representative thomas massie tweeted, stewart rhodes never entered the capitol and didn't ask commit acts of violence or destruction, yet he's going to be sentenced thursday for seditious conspiracy, obstructing an official proceeding, and tampering with docks, in parentheses, deleting stuff on his phone. weaponization of speech? kelly meggs received a lighter sentence than roads even though he actually entered the capitol on january 6th, roasted not. talk us through the sentencing decisions as you see it.

>> i'm not an attorney but i am an avid student of all this, obviously, over the last two and a half years. it doesn't matter whether he entered the capital. rico theriot who was just convinced last week didn't enter the capitol. the fact is these individual masterminds of the plan to overthrow the election process you don't have to be pulling the strings on tens of thousands of individuals that were following the cause. and so the fact that they once again, these are captains, i believe stewart rhodes isn't intelligent north sophisticated enough to pull this off by himself. i think there are people outside of his organization, well above him, that enabled and insisted this january six from our lead. i think the hope of justice department will start going after those higher level officials. >> other oath keepers convicted jarry six related crimes will be sentenced tomorrow, next

week, as someone who's been watching this, do you think that what we saw today might impact those cases? >> i hope so, and i hope some of these individuals that saw stewart rhodes gets 18 years are evaluating their defense and hopefully looking to cooperate with prosecutors. the fact of the matter is, stewart rhodes, we saw stewart rhodes, the oath keepers in the proud boys, a month before january six, start scheming openly online to overthrow the election process. so to go into a courtroom and use this kind of, we just got caterpillar, boebert was not an organized event, was nonsense. the evidence speaks for. south merland holden's team, we pray to that stuff out, we shared, it we saw it, live in time, and so you can't go into the court now using that defense. stewart rhodes didn't do, it didn't work for him, he tried to do, it it didn't work for him, and it won't work subsequently for other defendants. >> donell harvin, thank you for joining us tonight. one more story tonight. clock is ticking on negotiations to raise the debt

ceiling, with the u.s. set to run out of cash. but there are reportedly signs of movement tonight. we are on that, just ahead. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ weeds... they have you surrounded. take your lawn back with scotts turf builder triple action! gets three jobs done at once - kills weeds. prevents crabgrass. and keeps it growing strong. get a bag of scotts triple action today, it's guaranteed. feed your lawn. feed it. hey bud. wow. what's all this?

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this progress in washington tonight in the ongoing negotiations to raise the debt ceiling to avert economic catastrophe. significant progress, the new york times reporting.

talk white house officials and lawmakers are closing on a deal that would raise the debt limit for two years, capping federal spending on everything but military and veterans in the same time period. if this is the deal we end up with, that is good news for everyone. for one, the debt ceiling won't become a campaign issue before 2025, and both democrats and republicans can claim some level of victory. republicans can say they delivered on their promise to reduce federal expanding while expanding resources for veterans in the military. democrats on the other hand can say they've protected most domestic program from significant cuts. that last part extremely important because among those most likely affected by a default our senior citizens. the washington post reported that on june 2nd, believes the u.s. could run out of the money, around 98 billion dollars worth of benefits including medicare, medicaid, civil retirement payments, are scheduled to go out to social security recipients and people of

disabilities. not making that payment will be devastating to retirees, especially low income seniors who, on average, don't have the resources to withstand the hit. in interviews with more than a dozen americans who receive federal benefits, nearly all said and may delay payment would have immediate repercussions on their ability to pay for housing and groceries. we're say case scenarios, doing without blood pressure medications, returning to work. the prospect of rejoining the labor force after years of being away made the makeshift. current msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill, clara, thanks so much for being with. yes let's get reaction from tonight's news. how significant is this? will we see an end by the end of the week? >> you know, alicia, this gonna be some needle threading that's gonna have to go on, because even if kevin mccarthy makes a deal, and that's keep in mind most of us don't want the deal that kevin mccarthy is pushing for but this has to be a compromise because the republicans control the house.

the president is really focused on making sure that those recipients of social security don't suffer. but what is going to be fun to watch or maybe painful to watch is whether kevin mccarthy can hold his caucus together. how many votes will he lose? and is it possible that he would lose so many votes that it could jeopardize the deal. and if that happens, then the republicans get all the blame for a default and all the pain that would come afterwards. so this is a real high wire act for kevin mccarthy, because you know he has got a clown car full of crazies that are aren't gonna vote for this no matter what, at least charged 20 people. >> let's talk about the threading of the needle that you just spoke of. one of the things the times reporting tonight is the deal they are working on would, quote, rob $10 million. 80 billion dollars congress of approved last year for an irs crackdown on high earners incorporation who evade taxes. funding that nonpartisan

scorekeepers would reduce the bus budget-ish deficit by having the government collect more of the tax revenue. that is a lot of congressional speak there. if you could both decipher it for us and give us your reaction to it. >> they are trying to give mccarthy a single eve. they're trying to give him something that will please enough of the republicans to get this across the finish. line at the same time, they have to be really careful and protect the priorities of democrats. so what this would do is basically they're acknowledging that it is very hard to rollout all that 80 billion as quickly as the eye or might like to. so they would trim. that they would give that a haircut. and that money would then allow there not to be draconian cuts to the social service programs that the democrats care so

deeply about that the republicans are happy to cut to smithereens if they could get it done. >> it's interesting to me that during the trump years republicans looked at the inroads they were making with white working class voters and they thought to themselves, maybe what we need to do is position ourselves against corporations. that's part of what you're watching with ron desantis and disney the, idea that he can put himself against a corporation, not against workers rights and tax cuts but instead about an ideological difference. but that is the core of what he is trying to do here. so it is interesting to me that the irs going after corporations that don't pay their fair share of taxes would be something that republicans in that mold would not join democrats in standing up against. >> it's funny because republicans like to say, if we only ran government more like a business. think about this, for a minute. can you imagine a business

being in debt and saying well, the really smart thing for us to do is not to collect our receivable's. let's not go out there and get the people to pay that are supposed to pay. and that's what the republicans have been doing to the irs. they have been basically stripping it of its ability to give good service to honest taxpayers who just want to know when they're gonna get their refined and decimating the audit staff so that the cheaters are getting away with it, and frankly the republicans ought to be about personal responsibility and making sure everyone is falling following the line paying their share. >> clare, i've only got about 30 seconds left, but if this deal were to go through, it means that they would raise the debt ceiling for two years, meaning maga republicans would not have an opportunity to make it a campaign issue till 2025. that is clearly good for the american people. the politics of that? >> yeah, i think it's really important that we are not back here watching this again next spring. we have already seen the

republicans will be irresponsible with this. they are happy to raise the debt ceiling when trump is in office. they did a number of times. trump said oh no, you can't dance with the debts the mess with the debt ceiling. let's not give them that opportunity. let's stay focused on what needs to happen next year, which is protecting people that need it in our country instead of taking care of the very wealthy, and then at the election occur and hopefully that election will allow the debt ceiling to be dealt with in a way that's more responsible. >> claire mccaskill who knows very well what these negotiations should look like, thank you very much. you can catch my show american voices 60 8 am eastern. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. hi, lawrence. >> hi alicia. i was just listening to every word that you and senator mccaskill had to say because i'm sitting here kind of delighted so far on what is being reported in the new york times because on tuesday night