democrats are encouraged in rural counties to come out and vote in state legislatures, that could have an impact on, obviously, congressional racs and even the white house. that's something, obviously, democrats are focused on as they head into 2024. >> all right. politics reporter for "axios," eugene scott, thank you. have a great weekend. this is the week in many ways the republican primary really began with governor desantis jumping in the race, tim scott, as well. others, mike pence, chris christie expected to join in in recent weeks. the campaign is heating up. but the attention right now is the debt ceiling, deadline less than a week away. negotiations likely to ramp up later today. thank you, all of you, for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning. have a great weekend, everybody. he talks at a level where third, fourth, fifth grade educations can say, i get that.

i understand it. in fact, trump made the republican party the party of working americans in a way that probably hasn't been true for almost 100 years. >> yeah, because in 100 years, there hasn't been a politician who said, i'm going to make this for third graders to understand what i'm talking about. talking on that level? that was newt gingrich encouraging ron desantis to get on the level of third graders. i'm not joking. you know, kind of like donald trump does. wonder what he means. >> this is a tough hurricane. one of the wettest we've ever seen from the standpoint of water. rarely have we had an experience like it, and it certainly is not good. >> oh, my god. one of the wettest we've had. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." hope you've had a good week. it is friday. friday, may 26th. let's bring in with us the host

of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. the host of "inside with jen psaki," jen psaki. she's a former white house press secretary. also, pulitzer prize winning columnist and editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson, who is enthralled by the meteorology report by donald trump. and the host of "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. and from "the washington post," david ignatius. what a day of news. yesterday was the most high-profile defendant in the january 6th investigation, sentenced to 18 years in prison. you heard that right, 18 years in prison. the stiffest penalty handed out so far in what has become one of the biggest criminal probes in u.s. history. justice correspondent ken dilanian has more. >> reporter: one of the key figures behind the january 6th attack on the capitol facing the toughest sentence in more than

1,000 prosecutions. stewart rhodes was sentenced to 18 years in prison after convicted of seditious conspiracy, using violence to prevent the government from carrying out its duties. he was not in attendance at the capitol, but he conspired to help make it happen and take up arms and foment revolution. a former army paratrooper who graduated from yale law school, he wore an orange prison suit during the hearing. he showed no remorse, telling the judge he considered himself a political prisoner. judge manta responding to rhodes, you, sir, present an ongoing threat and a peril to this country and our democracy. rhodes' lawyers promised an appeal. >> i think this was all about the weaponization of speech by

the department of justice. i think that, essentially, they used stewart rhodes' words against him. >> reporter: prosecutors say rhodes spent weeks after the election plotting to use violence to keep president trump in power. the judge appied a so-called terrorism enhancement to rhodes' sentence, the first time that's happened in a january 6th case. >> it is a very significant sentence, and it sends a very, i think, important message of deterrence. >> yeah, it really does send an important message of deterrence. something that republicans used to support. that was nbc's ken dilanian with the report. as we told you yesterday, the writer whose photographed with his feet on a desk of then speaker nancy pelosi's during the insurrection has been sentenced to 4 1/2 years in prison, as well. floridagovenor and 2024

hopeful donald trump said he'd pardon some of the rioters from january 6th at the capitol. he made the comments on a radio show. >> it's been weaponized. we see some of what you mentioned. some is the fbi going after parents going to school board meetings. some is how they treat a pro-life demonstrator, how they don't go after people attacking pro lifers. what i'm going to do, day one, i will have folks that will get together and look at all these cases who people are victims of weaponization or political targeting, and we will be aggressive at issuing pardons. now, some of these cases, some people may have a technical violation of the law, but if there are three other people who did the same thing but in a context of blm and they don't get prosecuted at all, that is uneven application of justice. >> i mean, he's not really that

stupid. maybe he's talking like a third grader. we're talking about people who tried to overthrow american democracy. ron knows that. he knows that. yet, he's playing that game. recall how donald trump also responded to a question about pardons for january 6th rioters in a recent cnn town hall meeting. >> my question to you is, will you pardon the january 6th rioters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one because a couple of 'em probably they got out of control. what i've done to these people, they've persecuted these people. yeah, my answer is, i am most likely, if i get in, i will most likely, i would say, it will be a large portion of them. >> it's unbelievable, the party of law and order? that's what they tell us, it's law and order for the poor? is it law and order for the

dispossessed? is it law and order for what? everybody but rioters who tried to overthrow the federal government, to keep a republican in the white house after he lost? you know, the people that are talking about pardoning, desantis and trump, are people like stewart rhodes who said, "they won't fear up until we come with rifles in our hands." rhodes wrote a message ahead of january 6th, saying after the attack, a recording was played in court during his trial when he said, i'm a political prisoner, trump is saying he's a political prisoner, desantis is saying, oh, it's the fbi and doj's fault. don't you understand, that's their fault. no, it's stewart rhodes' fault. after january 6th, after the

cops had the hell beaten out of them by american flags, he said his only regret was, we should have brought rifles. let me tell you something, about 400 rioters have already received sentences for their violent, vile acts committed on january 6th. their anti-american, treasonous acts. 200 have been incarcerated for that rioting, for the beating of cops. support the blue? not quite. not even close. for donald trump and his rioters, it was beat the hell out of the cops. yes, they were planning to overthrow american democracy. it's called seditious. law enforcement still seeking 350 criminals who committed violent acts at the capitol, and that search goes on. trust me, the rioters will be found, and they will be brought to justice, too. you know, trump and desantis praise these rioters that you're looking at.

they praise theseditionists, the convicts. they send a very clear, very loud message to others. you try to overthrow the federal government while beating the hell out of cops with american flags that our troops have proudly marched into battle for over two centuries, as they storm government buildings, destroy american democracy, that's okay. stand back and stand by. let me tell you something, the rotted corpse of what once was the republican party, it just keeps lurching forward zombie like. it'll follow donald trump into whatever gutter he takes them on this eight-year march toward fascism. not almost fascism, not something quite like fascism, but fascism itself. and to think, the republican party i grew up in and the

conservatives that, well, they claim to be conservatives, they once talked about being the party of law and order. they argued that criminal penalties did not just punish the violators like stewart rhodes, but also discouraged other people from committing those same violent crimes. but no more, desantis. no more, donald trump. wow. do you think that's going to win swing voters in the suburbs? you've got another thing coming. the only thing i can say is, thank god for the judicial branch. let me say that again because i say it a lot. thank god for the judicial branch. the only one of the three branches that stayed true to madison's promise of checks and balances across our great republic's government. federal judges, both conservative and liberal alike, did not mindlessly follow donald trump, and that's why the rule of law still reigns supreme in

america and why justice keeps getting done in courthouses across america every day. hey, guess what? if you're out there, if you committed crimes, if you committed violent acts on january 6th, they're coming to get you and bring you in, not as a political prisoner, but as somebody who defiled the united states capitol and tried to shred the constitution of the united states. know this, justice will be served. david ignatius, i look at stewart rhodes' conviction yesterday, 18 years. i don't think it's enough, but that's what they got for him, 18 years. what message does that send to all the other people out there that listen to idiots on podcasts or on websites that are saying, "let's overthrow the federal government"? i've heard this for 30 years

from wingnuts on the far reaches of parties. donald trump tried to bring it mainstream, and a lot of people are sitting in jail for a very long time because of it. >> joe, the words of the judge in the stewart rhodes' case ring in my mind. should in everybody's. you, sir, are an ongoing threat and a peril to this country. then he gave him the 18-year sentence. he insisted there is no crime worse that he could hear here than seditious conspiracy. it is a message, as you've been saying, that this judge, and i think you're right, the court system in general, will not tolerate the kind of behavior that we saw on january 6th. but i thought this judge was especially direct, blunt in calling stewart rhodes what he is, which is a person who wants to overturn the system of

government we have in this country. i'm glad he is so specific. now, we've got to see whether justice can finish these prosecutions, can keep going and, indeed, will approach the person who launched the riots in the first place, which is former president trump. >> the other thing that struck me here, there's been so much criticism from democrats. a lot of it may be warranted, about the pace of the department of justice as it relates to the prosecution of trump. people want something to happen out there, but they strategically went after these rioters, went after these insurrectionists first. they did that purposefully, for that deterrence impact that we heard mary mccord talk about earlier in the show. that's interesting, too. because, to some degree at this point, what they set out to do is working, at least to date. we saw that in the wake of the

trump indictment, where there was not thousands of people gathering, ready to take down government buildings. let's hope that continues. but this is a moment where i think the department of justice and their strategy doesn't, you know, warrant some, you know, support. i guess applause to some degree. i wanted to ask you, eugene, just about kind of how you think out there politically democrats, progressives, the base of the democratic party that are frustrated and have been that nothing has happened to donald trump, are digesting the sentencing of rhodes and the fact that finally something is happening, but it's not quite trump. how do you think that's playing out there? >> well, 18 years is a significant prison sentence, and i think it got everybody's attention. i think people see it as heartening, that these crimes that were committed on january 6th are being taken seriously. you know, a lot of people know

people who were -- or know of people who were convicted of what we now think of as relatively minor drug offenses who got long prison terms like that. i think it says something really positive about the judicial branch, as joe said, and about the justice department. this is being taken seriously. stewart rhodes got 18 years in prison. and this very systematic, drawn out prosecution of the rioters in this attempt to round them all up and identify them and bring them to justice continues. it will continue. yes, the big question is, does it go up the ladder to the person who inspired and summoned

the rioters and sent them off to the capitol? that would be former president trump. that's a question for special counsel jack smith and for attorney general merrick garland. we'll find out the answer. >> jonathan lemire, you wrote the book on "the big lie," on january 6th. you have one person being convicted after another. they say, "i didn't do it because of me. i did it because of donald trump. i was following donald trump. he's the one who told us to be there. he tweeted it out a month before, said come on january 6th." of course, trump said, "it'll be wild." trump is the one who told the rioters, "stand back and stand by." told white nationalists in the debates to "stand back and stand by." at cnn's town hall meeting, what did he say? he called january 6th a beautiful day and said that those people that beat the hell out of cops with the american flag were there with love in

their hearts. you talk about somebody like stewart rhodes who doesn't have an ounce, an ounce of regret for sitting there and watching rioters destroy cops and violate the inner sanctum of the u.s. capitol. has no regret whatsoever. i'm wondering, how do you send hundreds of people to jail for following the orders of donald trump, and donald trump doesn't also get sent to jail for seditious conspiracy, since, memo to everybody a couple months ago who said nobody was getting charged with that, since they are, in fact, getting charged for exactly what they did. taking part in a conspiracy, sedition against our republic. >> stewart rhodes compared himself to nelson mandela, and

his only regret was they didn't bring rifles. other members of the oath keepers expressed remorse, receiving slightly shorter sentences. 18 years is a lot, and we'll see if it is a deterrence. this is the largest investigation in doj and fbi's history. it has been slow at times, but it has been steady. we have seen conviction after conviction after conviction, moving up the ladder. we know special counsel jack smith, who has a lot on his plate, also talking about the mar-a-lago documents, that we'll get into more in that probe, but certainly is looking at january 6th and whether they can prove that this, indeed, that violence we keep seeing here, that violence was inspired by donald trump and donald trump himself. donny, donald trump hasn't walked away from it at all. he has suggested he'll pardon the vast majority of those who rioters that day. he's appeared with january 6th convicts who formed a chorus. donald trump has used the music for his rallies. now, we have ron desantis launching his bid and suggesting

he'd issue pardons, as well. how do you see this playing out in terms of the politics of it, in terms of the future of it, in terms of the republican party, where it's two, two leading contenders for the presidency saying, "hey, what the guys did on january 6th, let them walk." >> we'll go to desantis first because we know what trump would do. what would happen if, god forbid, desantis said, "i'm a law and order candidate, and i don't believe in the overthrowing of this government. donald trump does, i don't." would he lose the base, or would the republican party go, we have the same person? that's a plausible thing to do, yet he is new coke. he's just following trump. you're not going to get there by not zigging while trump is zagging. that's number one. number two, if the republicans lose law and order, what do they have? that'scornerstone of who they are. i could not wait to cut commercials together using the footage and superimposing on

trump or desantis saying, "pardon." this will be the first presidential election with what i'm going to call the material, the footage, the proof points to use, all that footage you've been looking at the last two, three minutes. to me, if you don't have that and you were -- by the way, if you're desantis, you're losing business, also, with disney. they keep chipping at the pillars, the cornerstones of the republican party, what it used to be. once again, this is going to come back to bite them. i particularly, in the case of desantis, why are you just being new coke versus coke? >> it doesn't make any sense at all. i mean, again, the party of law and order? please. party of law and order if you're black. that's what the republicans believe. but not party of law and order for white dudes that went to yale and then tried to lead a seditious conspiracy against the united states government. they want to pardon 'em. it's unbelievable. now, let's go to new reporting.

two of donald trump's mar-a-lago employees were moving boxes of papers the day before a visit by fbi agents and a prosecutor. they were there to retrieve classified documents in response to a subpoena. timing is being viewed as suspicious and an indication of possible obstruction. for more, let's bring in national editor of "the washington post," philip rucker. he edited the reporting for "the post." what in the world was going on there? >> well, joe, this happened in june of 2022 when president trump had received already a subpoena for those classified materials. on june 2nd, he had two of his employees, one his valet, another a long-time worker at mar-a-lago, move a number of boxes of papers on the property. later that day, his lawyer, trump's lawyer, contacted the justice department and said,

"it's okay now for you guys to come retrieve those documents in response to the subpoena." the next day, on june 3rd, is when a prosecutor and the fbi showed up at mar-a-lago to retrieve the documents, but the boxes that had been moved, of course, were not retrieved. fast forward two months, and that's when the fbi did their raid in august at mar-a-lago. >> phil, it's jonathan. i'm not even a country lawyer like joe, but this sure seems like it could be added to making the case of obstruction, trying to move documents around ahead of the search. walk us through, like, the legal possibilities here, and also the timing, there's been a lot of chatter recently that jack smith is winding down this probe. we may get a charge decision sooner than later. >> well, the activity at the grand jury has slowed that. that means a lot of witnesses, trump employees, advisers, et cetera, have already been before the grand jury for questioning, some multiple times. we've seen that activity slow

down which is indication that the special counsel's investigation into the classified documents is winding down or in the final stages. we don't have visibility into what jack smith is thinking of doing, but our understanding is the charges he is considering includes obstruction of justice as well as mishandling of classified documents. the new details "the washington post" reported this week show that there's a broader timeline here of possible obstruction. the key period for smith is between -- after trump receiving the subpoena, which is the sort of lawful direction to him that he cannot have these documents and needs to return them to the government, and the august raid by the fbi and what sort of acts trump and those around him were doing to potentially cover up what they had, to withhold some of the documents to try to evade investigators. so the new reporting we have

about the two workers, moving those boxes the day before the fbi showed up, is significant and i think could factor in heavily in smith's decision about whether to file obstruction of justice charges. >> phil, this is your colleague, david ignatius. just wondering if you have any better sense now of what trump's motive was in holding on to these documents, and then why he was so concerned about his retention of them that, according to the latest information we're getting, he was instructing people to move them out of the way of a potential search? what's at the bottom of this case as you look at it? >> well, there are a couple ways that we have indications of his motive. both the public comments that trump has made the last several months in interviews and at his rallies talking about the documents, and also what we've learned through our reporting at "the washington post" about the investigation. trump said many times he believes these documents were

his property, that they were his documents. they were papers given to him. they were gifts given to him in some cases. that, of course, is legally, these are the property of the u.s. government. it's why the archives sought him as soon as he left the white house. it's why this was a protracted dispute between trump and the government. they are the property of the government, but trump thought otherwise. the other thing we've learned is that investigators have determined that there's not necessarily a financial motive here. you might think, well, gee, maybe trump wanted to sell the information that was in the classified documents. so far, in this investigation, according to our reporting, there's no indication that there was some sort of financial play here, that he was selling this information. rather, it was to feed his ego. he wanted to hold on to them. in fact, our reporting yesterday at "the post" included an interesting detail. trump had some of the classified documents out in the open in his office and would sometimes show

them to people visiting him at mar-a-lago. >> all right. "the washington post"'s phil rucker, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. jonathan lemire, by the way, i want you to know, we've gotten through the first block without talking about the boston celtics. we'll talk about them the next block. of course, down 3-0. now, it's 3-2. curt schilling pitching in game six. things seem to be breaking the red sox's way. is it 2004 all over again. >> the presence of a-rod and jeter at the game the other day started this. yes, i mean, we're daring to dream. we'll talk about it later. we should not talk about the 2023 red sox, whose offense has fallen off a cliff in the last week. >> 140 games left. take a deep breath. it's a long marathon. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on the debt ceiling. there are new reports this morning the white house and top republicans are, surprise, surprise, inching closer to a

deal. who could have seen that coming, other than people that have been in washington for 30 years. plus, a new look at fundraising numbers for ron desantis on the heels of that crazy presidential announcement. and a major change-up in cpac as a top leader resigns. we're going to bring in the reporter who broke that story and talks about a, quote, cancer that is growing on cpac. "morning joe" will be right back.

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of course, you see everybody on the road. you know what they're doing. they're going to universal right now. they can't stay away. it's going to be a big weekend. universal studios in orlando. okay, disney, as well, and sea world and all the other places. i hope you are getting ready to have a great memorial day weekend. certainly hope it's better than, well, memorial day weekend for some leaders of cpac. more shocking news out of cpac this morning. the treasurer of the organization has resigned, citing financial mystery surrounding chairman matt schlapp. in his resignation letter, bob raised concerns over how cpac is funding schlapp's legal defense against a lawsuit accusing him of sexual assault against a male aide. beauprez wrote, quote, a cancer

has been metastasizing within the organization for years. let's bring in the political reporter who wrote the "new york" magazine article about the allegations. ben, a lot to sort through here. forgive me if it doesn't sound like i've already heard this story before. like, this is, this is wayne la pierre stuff at the nra. it seems like the nra and cpac just can't keep their book straight. but this is connected to, i think, perhaps, a bigger scandal in cpac that the board appears to be, i don't know, trying to cover up or trying to defend. >> that's right, joe. the board is schlapp's friends. it's a hand-picked board, and they're all on his team and all working, you know, all fed information by him. that determines what decisions they're making. at this point, bob beauprez has

broken away. he sent this letter which was leaked out by the board in order to raise these concerns. it's a sign that, at this point, even the folks who are his friends are now having real concerns over the management at cpac and what is going on and how broken the institution has become. >> ben, let's channel newt gingrich and talk about this in a way that third graders can understand it. can you break it down in case people don't know, the ugliness at cpac for quite some time? what -- where did this begin, with accusations against matt schlapp, and what specifically is the treasurer accusing the board of doing? >> well, this has some of its root causes in allegations against schlapp that, while campaigning for herschel walker in 2022, he downed significant -- he's alleged to have drank a lot of alcohol and groped a male staffer who was

driving him back. this set off a chain of events. there's questions now whether cpac is paying for his legal defense. the treasurer says they advanced him $50,000 when the allegations initially happened. keep in mind, the treasurer thinks schlapp is innocent of this, and that schlapp had mysteriously raised $250,000 more that had gone to his legal defense. there are also allegations of financial mismanagement. there's massive staff turnover, that this is an organization over the past three years that's churned through employees at a pretty remarkable pace. generally, the books aren't straight. as "the washington post" reported earlier, just last year, schlapp started paying himself a salary, that previously he'd done this without a salary. it was a significant six-figure salary to supplement his everyday job as a lobbyist. >> wow. you know, donny, let's talk really quickly. the conservative brand has been so tarnished. i talked about the nra.

you could also talk about, obviously, donald trump, all the indictments that are out there against him. here with cpac, this is -- this has been, until recent years, this has been where all conservative candidates have gone. they didn't this year because, again, there's this cloud that hangs over it. man, i always talk about how republicans have become the jim and tammy faye bakker of politics. squeezing every last dime out of people that they can sucker, then they never follow through on what they say they're going to do, whether it's for legal defense funds or something else. you know, we got the parallels. you have jim and tammy faye bakker. you have oral roberts. you have jimmy swaggart, the catholic church, southern baptist church, all these scandals. now, it seems it's just moving over to the conservative movement. one scandal after another

scandal, one indictment after another indictment. i don't know how the conservative brand is not just absolutely tarnished for decades to come. >> what is the conservative brand right now? if you said, what do they stand for? >> nothing. >> it's hate. it's grievance. it's anger. it's breaking of laws. you know, the republicans should have a loop, and the loop should play to them, who is it that brought conservative movement and really made it relevant to americans? ronald reagan. they are anti-ronald reagan. everything that reagan stood de conservatism and making it relevant to the majority of americans. the conservative movement now is just stuck. it's stuck, and it stands for nothing from a policy point of view, except anger, hatred and complete, complete chaos. as you said, i don't see it coming back any time soon. you have the newbies in the party. you have ron desantis playing the same exact tune. nobody is getting it right.

they've fallen, and they can't get up. >> ben, what's next for cpac? is there a sense here that schlapp, his hold on power is in jeopardy? i mean, as you say, it's mostly run by his friends. the cpac conference this year was diminished, smaller, despite trump's return. it was smaller and seemed to matter less than years before. how do you see this playing out years going forward? >> there's a couple scenarios. one case, that this continues as is and cpac continues to diminish. as you pointed out, it was much more of a trump show. traditionally, cpac is all-encompassing of the movement. it was a narrower slice of people. people used to be physically banned from the conference and are now speakers on the main stage. the other scenario is whether schlapp steps down voluntarily. it is unlikely, from my understanding, the board is going to involuntarily deal with this. cpac still has lingering

strength because of its brand, but it's seen competition from turning point usa and other conservative conferences. it is a question of whether cpac fades away and becomes the rc cola of conferences. >> okay. i love rc cola. ben jacobs, thank you so much. appreciate you being here. >> thank you. now to russia. man, some crazy stuff going on there. russia's wagner mercenary group now is saying it's going to abandon bakhmut. it's going to turn it over to russia's armed forces, who they say can't hold the city. the group's leader says russia should not expect any more help from his forces in the city, which has seen some of the worst, heaviest fighting the past year. the news comes as the founder and the leader of the wagner mercenary group is also warning russia could lose the war in ukraine and face a revolution similar to that of 1917.

let's bring back in david ignatius. david, i don't know, maybe i'm overreading this, but i'm not so sure i am. you have this leader of the wagner group constantly beraid berating putin's inner circle, berating his military, by extension berating putin himself. he goes in, and, you know, they lose maybe 100,000 mercenaries going in to hold down bakhmut. then he decides to abandon it, knowing that the russian army is not going to be able to hold it in the spring offensive. so this is a guy that's talking about revolution. he's talking about how there's chaos in russia, talking about how badly things are going, how russia can lose. it is almost as if he's trying to prove that himself by his retreat. >> joe, it's a bizarre

situation. you have these taunts from, essentially, an oligarch who formed his own militia, prigozhin. used to be close to putin. the head of the militia denouncing the defense minister, the military leadership, saying he's not getting enough weapons, he did all the fighting. here's the most interesting thing to me. we have not heard a word from vladimir putin about this. as prigozhin rants and taunts, the leader stays in the kremlin aloof and silent. is that a deliberate strategy by putin, to stay above it all? is it a sign that he is increasingly losing control? we simply don't know. but the conversations i'm having with russian analysts go to this mystery of putin's passivity in this moment. what's going on?

that's the subject i'm going to be trying to do some reporting on today. >> david, i'm going to be really interested in that reporting. my question is, how does prigozhin say this stuff and stay on putin's good side? how does he -- how does he continue to live, frankly, by attacking putin and everything he's doing and the way he's doing it in this manner? it just doesn't seem to make sense, unless prigozhin is angling for putin's job. i mean, this is -- this seems to be a very serious split. i'm curious as to what your hunch is or what your feeling is. >> well, gene, it's no more than a hunch, but my sense has been for some years that putin, like many leaders of authoritarian countries, i think of countries like syria or iran, likes to have competing intelligence service and operatives under

him, all jockeying for power. no single one of them becomes strong enough to challenge the leader. prigozhin is checked by the defense minister, shoygu in this case. other leaders exert similar influence. you have centers of power under the leader, each negating the others' ability to challenge the leader. the problem is, putin is fighting a war. as prigozhin said, this war was supposed to demilitarize ukraine. instead of demilitarizing it, ukraine is now a superpowerchiee of what it intended. whether putin can put prigozhin back in the box is, again, one of the questions we need to ask. if he doesn't, prigozhin is going to challenge him as president. >> david, i wanted to ask you about bakhmut. we've heard so much about bakhmut. there has been so much reporting about it. so much of it is leveled, right

now, unfortunately, because of this war. why is it so significant? is it significant? when you mention the spring offensive, what do you think is the next step in that? what should we all be watching for? >> jen, one of the mysteries to u.s. commanders for months has been why the ukrainians were devoting so much of their blood and treasure to defending bakhmut, which is a modestly strategic point? it controls access to donetsk, one of the areass been bitterly attested. ukraine and zelenskyy said we have to hold russian forces there while we prepare the broader offensive that we think is about to start now this week. what will that look like? we have early signs that the ukrainians have been very aggressive in going after russianlogistics, command and

control. they're trying to restrict the ability to move around the battlefield as this begins, as ukraine punches through this very long front, over 1,000 kilometers, punches through at various points. will the russians be able to respond and react? ukrainians hope they will be able to push through the land corridor that connects russia to crimea, and put the real prize for crimea, at risk. if that happens, we'll be in a very different situation. now, the long-awaited offensive could be beginning. >> officials wonder why ukraine spent so much time in bakhmut. they successful in bogging down russia's troops and weapons, making them less able to defend the upcoming spring offensive. the officials i've spoken to are

growing more bullish about ukraine's chances here. they still think crimea is probably too far. that can't happen now, but they think ukraine can make real progress in the south and east. at minimum, go into potential negotiations. zelenskyy has to make that call, but it'd be in more of a position of strength. >> people are looking at this, you know, as maybe a victory that the russians can put in the books as a win. boy, a victory with horrific costs. over 100,000 casualties some people are estimating. they were held down. they were bogged down while the ukrainians were getting ready for the spring offensive. it seems to me, especially when you see the wagner group talking about retreating and turning it over to a group of russian divisions that aren't going to be able to hold it. it's, again, sort of the

worst-case scenario for the russians, i think. i wanted to bring up, gene, you'll remember, like david, you remember what russia was like in '90, '91, '92, '93. social anarchy. military anarchy. i've said for quite some time, i guess because of my briefings on the armed services committee in the mid to late '90s, that the only thing i feared more than vladimir putin was russia after vladimir putin. well, i'll tell ya, prigozhin proves that. here's a guy that a few days ago, he said, we need to become basically more of a totalitarian state, and russia needs to be north korea over the next three to four years. >> exactly. >> for all of those people out there -- and, listen, i'm not nominating vladimir putin for a nobel peace prize any time soon. i'm just saying, it can always get worse. maybe that's the conservative in

me. it can always get worse. but you look at this guy who may be angling to take vladimir putin's place. his vision for russia is not a greater russia. it's north korea. >> yeah, it's north korea. look, there are no indications that i know of so far, of 1917 unrest within russia, right? that's not happening. on the other hand, the sort of parallel is that in 1917, russia, of course, was bogged down in a war, just sort of feeding soldiers into that mill. it sort of started with the army and the navy and sort of, the next thing you knew, there was a revolution. now, i don't think that's about to happen in russia, but it does -- we should remember that

really, really bad things can happen really quickly in russia. you never know when we're at, like, one of those kind of dipping points. yes, things could get worse. >> here, we've been showing you quotes about the 1917 revolution, when the first soldiers rise up, then their loved ones follow. the other quote, gene, is when he said, we need to close the borders and make russia more like north korea. there it is. not a great future for the russians or, i would say, for anybody in europe. if you don't think things can get worse, you haven't been studying russia very long. ahead, our next guest has written a timely and definitive book on china's authoritarian leader. how xi's vision for beijing could impact the rest of the

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beautiful shot of the white house at 6:53. friday, the start of memorial day weekend. i don't know what your memorial day weekend plans are, but inside there, a lot of people trying to figure out how to take care of the debt ceiling crisis. looks like they're getting closer every day. back in march, chinese president xi became the country's most powerful leader since mao. securing a precedent, breaking a third term in charge. xi was first elected as general secretary of the chinese communist party in 2012 and became china's seventh president in less than a year later. with us now, staff reporter for "the wall street journal," who has covered china for the "journal" since 2014. he's the author of "party of one, the rise of xi jinping and china's superpower future."

thanks so much for being with us. greatly appreciate it. talk about -- >> thanks for having me. >> talk about how president xi has stepped in and really asserted authority over the government in china, in a way that nobody could have foreseen when he first started moving toward power. >> yeah. i think one way to look at how this happened, when xi jinping first came to power in 2012, he was sort of an unknown quantity. back then, the joke was his wife was popular, actually more famous than he was. his career from his rise in the 1980s as a junior official to the top level of the party, he made a name for himself. he was capable but not particularly outstanding. by the time he came to power, he started to change that. you know, he really came to grips with the tools he had in

his hand. one of the things he did after taking control is use the anti-corruption agency, the ccdi, which i write in my book, he used that as a way to consolidate control. he sent antihfanti-corruption inspectors to clear out all sorts of corruption, abuse of power. at a time, there was a view that corruption was an existential threat to the party. there was, i think, a genuine attempt to deal with this problem. at the same time, there was a sense xi jinping was using this for control. he wanted to make the bureaucracy afraid of him. it was a way to consolidate power and implement his polities from a top-down approach. >> so we just saw footage there of president xi standing with president putin, and there's been an awful lot of tea leaf reading here in washington about how the war in ukraine is impacting president xi's thinking as it relates to his own desires.

taiwan and other places in the region. so you've been covering him for a long time. what's your best assessment of that? >> i think in terms of taiwan, i think it's not a secret that xi jinping definitely cares about this issue, perhaps more than some of his recent predecessors have done. xi famously said in 2013 to visiting taiwanese president, you know, the taiwan issue cannot be handed down from generation to generation, which suggests there is an urgency in resolving the problem. although he's not specifically set a timeline, some people suggested 2027, 2035, 2050. i don't think you can pin this down to a specific timeframe, but we do know that xi jinping has spent a lot of time and expense to modernize the chinese military. it's been a focus since he took power. he's spent time and energy telling people, you know, i want to make this a first rate fighting force. by all account, they've made significant progress in that sense. but as the russian invasion of

ukraine demonstrates, you can spend a lot of money to modernize a fighting force. when they have to deliver the goods on the battlefield, it may not be able to do the job. that may play into xi jinping's calculations, in terms of whether the military is capable of delivering, you know, perhaps the sacred mission as the communist party described it, reclaiming taiwan as part of the motherland. the communist party never governed taiwan. it is something fundamental to their view of what it takes to make china great again, to realize the china dream. i think in terms of what xi jinping might be thinking going forward, it's hard to say, but i think he's made very clear in his engagement with american leaders that taiwan is a non-negotiable issue. they must deliver. the americans cannot push harder on this issue. if push comes to shove, china will be forced to make a

response. >> chun, this is david ignatius in washington. you have explained well xi's school at consolidating power, but i want to ask whether you see any evidence that, in the last few years, he's stumbled on some key accounts, in managing the economy, in some of his dealings with some party officials. do you see any evidence that this xi magic, if you will, in politics has begun to fade some? >> the most recent example you're probably referring to is the -- how heunwinded zero koefd covid. it was the lockdown, testing. he locked down entire neighborhoods when there was an outbreak in the area. it came at significant cost. in november, we saw outbursts of anger against the government for imposing such a strict policy. in days, the government unwinded.

even though, you know, there was the understanding this would have significant consequences in terms of public health, the chinese population at the time, vaccination rates across the elderly were low. there was a -- zero covid, if it wasn't implemented, there could have a high death toll among the elderly. it was still carried through. i think that example sort of demonstrates this difficulty for xi. once you've got this much power, when everybody below is second guess what you want, when you issue instructions on certain policy goals, people below you sort of, you know, try to deliver more than you might expect. this is sort of -- this has led to sort of an extra, you know, enthusiastic implementation of policy, which then the government realizes they've gone too far and have to go back. zero covid was an example of this, going back and forth

between different directions on key policies. >> all right. the new book is "party of one: the rise of xi jinping and china's superpower future." chun han wong, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. best wishes on the book launch. david ignatius, as always, thank you, as well. let's bring in the host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. also, pulitzer prize winning author and historian doris kearns goodwin. with jonathan lemire, donny deutsch, jen psaki and eugene robinson. top story, the founder of the far-right group the ath keepers has been sentenced for 18 years in connection with his seditious conspiracy on january 6th. stewart rhodes called himself a

political prisoner. the judge didn't buy it for a second, rightfully. he said the only crime he committed was oppose ingwas, qu threatening the country, being a threat to the very fabric of the democracy. he left rhodes know he was there as someone who broke the law. 18 years is the longest sentence for any january 6th defendant so far. kelly megs was sentenced to 12 year. he apologized to his family. the judge said he didn't pose the same continuing threat as rhodes, justifying his shorter sentence. two oath keepers convicting of obstructing an official proceeding, and aiding and abetting will be sentenced later today.

the man caught in pelosi's office, putting his feet up on the desk and running throughout the capitol, sentenced 4 1/2 years, as we reported yesterday, in prison. so we've seen what donald trump said, which is, let's glorify the convicts. let's praise the people who beat the hell out of cops at the capitol on january 6th. he wants to pardon them all. what about ron desantis? well, he said if elected president, he would consider pardoning some of the people convicted on charges related to january 6th, insurrection at the capitol. following the lead of the man he wants to catch in the polls, donald trump. here is how donald trump responded to a question about january 6th rioter and insurrectionists' pardons. >> my question is, will you

pardon the january 6th rioters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one because a couple of them probably they got out of control. what they've done to these people, they've persecute z these people. yeah, my answer is, i most likely, if i get in, i will say, it'll be a large portion of it. >> the doj and fbi have been weaponized. we see that. we see it in a variety of condition texts, some of which you mentioned. some is the fbi going after parents going to school board meetings. some is how they treat a pro life demonstrator. how they don't goo after people who are pro lifers. on day one, i will have folks that will get together and look at all of these cases, who people are victims of weaponization or political targeting, and we will be aggressive at issuing pardons. some of these cases, some people may have a technical violation of the law.

if there are three other people who did the same thing but in a context like blm and they don't get prosecuted at all, that is uneven application of justice. >> donny, you know, when we look at political campaigns, the main idea is to present a contrast. for suburban women, for swing voters, for independents who are going to decide next year's elections in the suburbs of atlanta, philadelphia, detroit, milwaukee, phoenix, they have the right, the far right, constantly talking about these d.a.s who won't prosecute people who break in and steal clothes from department stores, right? that obviously upsets a lot of people. they don't like seeing their cities go to hell, and people

believe quality of life in their cities have gone straight to hell. what do you do? you contrast that, right, with somebody who talks about deterrence, somebody who talks about being tough on crime. but how can you do that when one of the most grievous crimes committed in the united statesc september 11th, happened, and you've got the two top republican candidates saying, yeah, you know what we're going to do? let the rioters go. by the way, the question asked of trump was not, what are you going to do for those people who were just touring the grounds on january 6th? the specific question was, are you going to pardon the rioters? the rioters. donald trump said yes. then desantis follows behind, trying to play catchup with

donald trump instead of providing this contrast that americans desperately want. >> as i said earlier, the desantis stuns me. 30, 40 points down, and you're just a weaker version of an extremist candidate. you're a new product. you can't get people to switch to a new one until you offer something new, something fresh. imagine if all of a sudden -- i'm drifting off topic here -- a youngkin says, i'm a conservative, but here's what i believe. i believe in law and order. i believe the violent rioters should be held accountable, just like any other criminal in this country. would they lose the republican party or reinvigorate the republican party. >> nope. >> they would not. this is what people want. there is an extreme fringe, not the entire base. but do you think the average republican voter, not even talking about democrats, don't think these people should be held accountable?

they see it with their eyes. it's stunning, the lack of ability to read a room and understand what a country wants is beyond comprehension. >> well, and they whine. they bitch and whine saying, oh, there weren't enough prosecutions of the rioters during the blm march es. so the answer is not to prosecute people who tried to take down the united states government? it is sheer insanity. if you think that maybe the justice department could have done a better job in 2020, the answer is not to do a lousy job in 2023. it's to actually do better. i don't know. you remember, 196 chaos that happened in 1968. people like my parents in the

suburbs of atlanta who were democrats and became republicans after the rioting, after the chaos, after the anarchy that they just couldn't process. this wasn't the america they grew up in. my mom voted for jfk. this wasn't's jfk's america. what i heard growing up was, deterrence, deterrence, deterrence, right? so i looked up deterrence this morning, did a google check. this is what i got. deterrence is a theory that criminal penalties do not just punish violators, like stewart rhodes, but also discourage other people from committing similar offenses. many people point to the need to deter criminal actions after high-profile incidents in which an offender is seen to have received too light a sentence. well, you know, as i keep saying, with no apologies, i'm still a conservative. i still believe that. yet, you have trump telling

white nationalists to stand back and stand by. you have trump, like, saluting convicts who beat the hell out of cops with american flags. you have donald trump actually paying tribute. i can't even believe this. what this george mcgovern had done this? to a convict choir. a convict choir. george mcgovern would have been, like, sent to guam for the rest of the '72 campaign. like, republicans would have freaked out. yet, here they are, saying, oh, you know what? the doj, they're just too tough. they're too tough. all of these people here scaling the walls of the capitol, all the people committing sedition against the united states, all of the rioters, we're going to pardon them, to send a message to other rioters in the future,

doris. that's what it'll do. >> well, i think the most important thing you're seeing is that the accountability of law is holding up. we may have felt for a period of time the justice department was moving too slowly, where are they? but they're winning case after case. big sentences are going down. the real battle that's going on right here is the battle for public sentiment. the country has to come to the understanding of what you just said. what happened on january 6th was one of the greatest violations in the history of our country. a peaceful transition of power was trying to be upset by these people. if the country, more and more, understands that, behad a competing narrative from trump and allies, "oh, they're aistto. they weren't doing anything wrong. nothing." my optimism about this is, each

one of these cases comes down -- every single case, whether it is e. jean carroll, dominion lawsuit, now other ones are coming down, the country is a rational country. they're going to see that something is very wrong with these things happening, and the counternarrative, that trump and now desantis are trying to hold, it's not going to break through. the suburbs are not going to accept that. we have to say that lincoln is right. with public sentiment, anything is possible. without it, nothing is. i think we're on the way. >> i could not agree more, doris. you look at the convictions. the fact that 400 people, 400 rioters have already received sentences for their crimes that they committed. over 200 have been incarcerated for that. many more are serving their sentences under home arrest. and law enforcement is going after another 350 people asking for help tracking them down, as well. you were right. in one case after another, 63

cases during the 2020 challenge, every single federal judge, whether they were former aclu member or former member of the federalist society, stood strong and stood against the overturning of an american presidential election. the supreme court did the same. even the three justices appointed by donald trump. you go down the line. the rule of law has made a huge difference. rev, you look at the rioters who have already been sentenced. look at the time being served by 200 rioters. it's just -- it's fascinating. this is what conservatives will usually say, hey, this is what we want. law and order. that's all we hear, law and order. law and order. well, it seems now that donald trump and ron desantis are saying, yeah, law and order for

them but not for us. >> you raise the point that is most troubling to me. that is that it is blatantly clear that they're not talking about law and order. they're talking about where they would apply, only when they seem to feel it is appropriate or something they politically agree with. notice what is being said here. they're not saying that we didn't break the law. they're saying, well, you were targeting us and not others. well, if the three of us sitting here around the table broke the law and only one got caught, that does not mean, well, you should have got -- you singled me out. it means you should have got all three of us. they broke the law. they were guilty of sedition. they're asking people to he them go because of their politics. to have a former president, a leading contender now and the

second leading contender say that they would even weigh, consider excusing people that are criminal, that broke the law, what does it do to the letter of the law? you talk about blm or civil rights. if we'd protested, if we thought people were targeted who hadn't broken laws. when we saw people in ferguson or other places, we can't say they should be pardoned, didn't make excuses for them. the comparison is not there. when people break the law on the left or right, they break the law and face the penalty. you do not say you will pardon people for breaking the law of a government you want to be in charge of. you have laws or you don't. >>echo reverend al, oath keeper members, people

sympathetic to the riots, they've been deterred. around the indictment of donald trump, when there was a former oath keeper who said, i'm rooting for him but i'm retired, that tells you, he's been deterred. donald trump thinks he is living above or beyond the law, who has not changed his behavior, who has continued in recent months to call for people to protest, even to come out surrounding himself, post his indictment. he's the guy not yet held accountable. that's why people are still frustrated, who want to see that happen. now all these people, including stewart rhodes, has been sentenced to 18 years. what happens to the guy at the top of the pyramid? >> gene robinson, republicans have been trying to say democrats are the party of defund the police. they're the ones who are the pro-crime party, if you will.

yet, now, we have two leading candidates for the gop nomination suggesting that those convicted of assaulting police, and not only storming the capitol trying to overthrow democracy, should be pardoned. it seems to me, and weigh in on this, this is also part of a larger piece where the democrats are trying to simply paint the republicans, at least their leaders, as completely out of tough. bowing to the extremes of their party on issues of guns and abortion. in this case, defense of democracy itself. >> that's loaders are extreme. i think democrats who are trying to paint this picture are trying to paint reality. think about the message that trump and desantis are sending to the base, to the trumpist base that they both want to

have. they're saying, you can't arrest and put in jail all these rioting white people. because you can't arrest and put in jail enough black people the year before. that's what they're saying. that's what the message is. it's, frankly, i was going to say an undertone, but i think it is a very clear racist message that is being sent. >> well, yeah. by the way, i hate -- it's like when people say the fbi spied on trump to help hillary win. you sit there and wonder where they were during 2020 when james comey did one thing after another, that even donald trump would admit helped him win the presidency. i mean, it's insanity. in this case, it's as if they forget, donald trump ran the justice department. his people ran the justice

department and the fbi during the black lives matter marches. if crimes were committed between june and january, like, they had six, seven months to prosecute 'em. so i'm not exactly sure who they're angry at when they go, "oh, well, you didn't, like, send people to jail that committed crimes, that rioted during the marches," even though it was a pretty darn small percentage that did that. reverend al, this goes, though, also to the fact that, as we say about hunter biden all the time. if he committed crimes, he needs to be arrested, needs to be tried and sent to jail. that's fine. every democrat i know says that, right? somehow, on the republican side, they say, if you do that to our people, we're going to defund the fbi. it's crazy.

here, i've never heard you say if people use the black lives matter marches as an excuse to break-in to a niemann marcus in minneapolis, that those people shouldn't be sent to jail. you know what? we believe that if you commit crimes, you should do the time. if you turn a march into an excuse for looting or destroying private property or police cars, you should be sent to jail. is that not right, rev? >> that's exactly right. in fact, you're coming in violation of what the march was about, and no one is going to stand up there and defend that. >> right. >> because we're there trying to get laws enforced that protect our rights. we're not there to be criminal lscriminals ourselves. if you take the middle of the pandemic, martin luther king iii

and i had a march. 200,000 people in the pandemic. if you contrast that peaceful march, not one brick thrown, no violence, with january 6th, you'd see the difference. if we had one incident of violence, we would have denounced it and said, these people are not with us. these people are trying to justify seditious acts. some of the people convicted here are convicted of seditious conspiracy. you're talking about pardoning them? to have them even entertain being in the white house is frightening to most americans that believe in the letter of the law. >> it is. boris, just to button this us, i'm reminded of a recent trip to poland that i made to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the warsaw ghetto uprising. we were in the summer palace in

warsaw. a 97-year-old holocaust survivor named martin tursky talked about the rule of law and democracy to the assembled crowd of polish and american leaders. he said, you know, you american s, when you were watching january 6th, you thought it was all about you. you're wrong. we were watching, too. we were asking ourself, how would america respond? he said, i say this as a survivor of auschwitz. when you won on january 6th -- then he stopped and said, and you won, you won for people like me, who saw all too well the cost of not upholding the rule of law and the cost of letting violence invade democracy and freedom. an extraordinary, extraordinary

moment to see, how even the conviction of stewart rhodes yesterday, that's not just us talking about it here. holocaust survivors in poland and across europe are saluting that. lovers of democracy and freedom, of jeffersonian and madisonian democracy, they are celebrating that this morning. it really is extraordinary, that line of rule of law and democracy moves from poland to the front lines of ukraine to japan, all across the world, to the words jefferson wrote all the way to washington, d.c. and here. >> you know, what a powerful memory you have from bringing that back. there's no question. we have to remind ourselves, america still is that beacon of democracy to the world at large.

i mean, they're remembering what we were able to do in world war ii, what we've done time and again. to have allowed the peaceful demonstration of power to be undone last january 6th, and to now have the accountability for it, it's a really important thing. i was thinking when the rev was talking about the 1960s, both of you were. i was at that peaceful march on washington in 1963. it was one of the most extraordinary moments of my life. this huge civil rights movement, 250,000 people, it was such a worry there might be violence. they closed liquor stores. they didn't allow the people coming on buses to stay overnight. they closed down games. it turned out perfectly because of martin luther king's leadership. then to see the riots later in the '60s, you had to punish those people. martin luther king and lyndon johnson were heartbroken by that. law and order has to be enforced at the same time.

the biggest place it has to be enforced is january 6th. that was the most heartbreaking event in my entire life. i think for most of us. it feels so good as i'm saying, one after another, as these accountabilities come down, public sentiment will be changed. in a democracy, that's what matters. because if the people begin to understand, not just public opinion polls, they understand something is wrong and something is right. something was very wrong in january. something is being made right right now. that'll be a cumulative effect over time as more and more of these cases come down. let's watch, it's going to happen. >> it's going to happen. of course, the 60th anniversary of martin luther king's march on washington will be this august. reverend al will be there leading a march himself. doris, before you go, i'm so excited about your new docu-series on the history channel about fdr. you're the executive producer. it premieres on memorial day. i can't wait. i want our viewers to see a

preview of it. >> american democracy was literally resting on his shoulders. >> get everybody in here. >> he knew he needed to project real strength. >> he is the dealer and hope for the entire free world. >> an invasion of france is courting disaster. >> he took risks again and again. you see these moments of great daring. >> success. with russian speed. we shall return again and again. >> roosevelt led the grand alliance to victory over fascism. >> this was a tumultuous, complicated period of time. it's a mistake to think that he somehow got everything right. but there was something about that voice. there was something about that smile. >> that empathy, that humility, that resilience. >> you know, doris, so many of us look back upon the great

depression and world war ii as, obviously, outcomes that were destined to be positive in america's balance sheet. but i was talking last night to a friend, and we were sitting, going -- after the stewart rhodes talking about the latest threats to american democracy. we were listing them in order. obviously, we were two nerds who were doing that. we both hit upon fdr's term, where he faced the threat of fascism rising because of the great depression, and then because of hitler. i don't think we understand in 2023 enough that awful truth that fdr said to eleanor after she said, you know, basically, if you don't succeed, you'll be the last democratic president. he said something along the lines of, if i don't succeed, i will be the last american

president. talk about that. >> yeah. i mean, you are right. we remember that things turned out well, the depression came to an end with the mobilization for the war. that we won the war, the allies did. they didn't know that at the time, which means the crises he faced, the double crises, are two of the greatest in our history. the reason he was successful, and that's what is important to remember today, was because of the bond he established with the american people. over and over again, they came to trust him. when he came in the first inaugural and he said, it's not your thought you don't have a job. it's the failure of leadership. i'm here to provide the leadership. he said he'll call the congress into emergency session to handle the banking crisis, something we're dealing with now, a financial crisis. they did handle it. the words and the deeds were together. people began to trust in leadership, trust in the government again. once again, during the early days of the war, we were not prepared in 1940. he gave everything he could to england, knowing how important it was that england survive.

that was the right move before pearl harbor. we started the business going, so we had the weapons the give them through lend-lease, helping the war to be won. through it all, he communicated with the american people and told them what he was doing. even in the banking crisis which i'm thinking now so much because of what we're going through, he goes on the air the night before he's created an emergency bill. he's going to get the currency to the banks that need it, the banks that failed because they've given that are money to the stock market. it is going to work, the system is going to work. he tells the people what he is doing and why he is doing it. he has to make sure. he closed the banks a whole week. after the fireside chat, when he explained what he was doing, they took their money back to the banks with satchels. the crisis was over. he did that time and time again. fireside chats two, three times a year, two press conferences a week. he knew as long as he could tell the country what the reality

was, what the brutal problems were, they'd respond with sacrifice and understanding. people thought he was coming to talk to them in living rooms. there are wonderful scenes in the mini series. a construction worker is running home at night. someone says, where are you going? he said, my president is coming to talk to me in my living room tonight. it's only right i be there to greet him when he comes. you could walk down the street on a hot chicago night when a fireside chat was on. everybody was looking. his words would come out, and you could keep walking and not miss a word of what he said. it was the communication with the people, the bond in democracy, and that's how he did it. it is extraordinary for us to remember today. he is a great character. i'm so glad to have lived with him for so long. >> doris, the country did come together behind fdr. they came together to listen to him, as you said. everybody listening to those fireside chats. a huge percentage of the population. with today's fractured country

and the fractured media landscape and our fractured view of even reality, of what facts are, what events actually happened, are we capable of coming together again? because, in my opinion, we are, again, at a time of crisis. >> it's a really good question. because eight out of ten people listened to the fireside chats, bigger than any entertainment, boxing match, anything. there were people who threw their radios out the window. some didn't want to listen to him. also, you didn't have pundits criticizing it halfway through. the speech was given, and then people talked about it afterwards. it became a common conversation in the country. it's much, much harder today with the divided media, with people not even believing what they're seeing, with facts that aren't really facts. one of the things he always did was to tell what are the facts? then people could have different opinions about them. but i guess i still have to hope that the kind of person he was,

who told stories to the people who had a reality in them, was able to communicate in short words. he never used big words. he said, people want a short sentence rather than a long one. if you get that person who gets the trust of the people, that's what we're losing today. 17% of the people believe the government might do the right thing much of the time. in his day and age, it'd be 80% of the people. that's what we've lost in a long period of time, between the credibility gap, the war in vietnam, watergate, everything that has gone on in the last years. somebody has to restore the trust. it is up to the people to solicit that person. >> the docu-series "fdr," 8:00 p.m. eastern on the history channel this monday. doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. can't wait to see it. >> thank you. it was really a great adventure to work on it. thank you very much for letting me talk about it today. i'm so glad to. i loved it. >> i'm excited. we're all excited. thank you. still ahead on "morning

joe," the deputy secretary of the treasury is going to be with us amid reports the white house and republican leaders are moving closer to a debt ceiling deal. also, after years of scandal, texas attorney general ken paxton is now facing impeachment. we're going to go to the findings from the republican-led investigation. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. orning joe." we'll be right back.

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ get it with gurus. cargurus. we worked all day, continue to work through the night. there's no agreement. look, it's not easy. this is a big issue, and it's not something you can solve easily. we want to make sure it's worthy of the american people. we're continuing to work until we get it done. >> that was kevin mccarthy last night at the capitol, stressing a deal is not yet done on the debt ceiling, but progress has been made. negotiators meeting again today. joining us live from the white house is deputy secretary of the treasury, walley eriyama.

mr. deputy secretary, great to see you this morning. let's talk about just where we are. we're less than a week to the deadline. what can you tell us about where things stand? >> i can say what you've largely already said, which is that progress has been made. we need to take action immediately to make sure we avoid defaulting on our nation's debt and also on the money we owe to seniors and others. the secretary said it is likely by early june, we'll no longer have the resources to meet commitments to our creditors, also to our seniors, veterans and other americans. congress needs to act to make sure that's avoided. >> so we hear a lot about, really, these big picture, 30,000 foot ideas, that it'd be catastrophic, that it'd be a financial calamity were the nation to default. break it down for us into real world examples. for everyday americans, if this were to happen next week, less than a week away, how would it change their lives each and

every they? >> let's go back to 2011. 2011, although at the last minute they avoided default, the stock market fell down about 20%. if you have a 401(k), that's going to impact your 401(k). a few weeks ago, the united states government auctioned off bills, and we paid $80 million more to sell that debt than we would have. that's $80 million we're not spending on your children's education, on infrastructure. as you know, when you want to borrow to buy a house or to pay for a small business, the rate that you borrow at is set off of the rate that the government borrows at plus something. the government's rate of of borrowing goes up, it'll be harder to get a car, help your small business. it'll get worse the closer we get to the deadline, which the secretary said is highly likely to be early june. >> wally, so many people -- this is jen, by the way. >> hey, jen. >> hello. so many people have june 1st circled on their calendar, as if

we're kind of, like, falling off a cliff into the ocean on that day. what happens on june 1st? what should people will bracing for? why is that the date on the calendar people are so focused on? >> jen, you have been in government through a few of these when we've gone through periods where the congress had to lift the debt limit. the government makes billions in payments and takes in money each day. it is hard to predict exactly when the date will be. the secretary said it is highly likely it'll be early june when we no longer have the resources to meet our payments. it's not just payments to creditors who lend us money, but it is payments to our troops who are -- get a salary from the u.s. government. to veterans who are getting veterans benefits. to social security recipients. if we don't have authorization from congress, we'll be forced to default on all of our bills to those individuals once we run

out of resources. >> jonathan lemire, i know you've been talking a lot to the white house, too. wally is obviously standing outside the white house, but they've been really quiet. i have any own thoughts on this, but i wanted to ask you, why do you think they've been so quiet? what bet are they making here? >> yeah, they are. it's a deliberate strategy here, that they've sort of ceded the floor, the communications game, to the house speaker. we saw it, kevin mccarthy, he doesn't miss an opportunity to get in front of a camera. some democrats think it's a mistake by the white house. the president said, look, he feels if he interjects himself, it gets political. he'd rather act as the closer at the end of the deal. that may work. that's the strategy the white house has used for other thorny negotiations the last 2 1/2 years. there are some democrats who are anxious that they let mccarthy dictate the terms of this debate, at least so far. reverend sharpton, the clock is ticking. there seems like progress is made on spending.

some reports that on defense, that's something the white house maybe scored a victory on. it's work requirements and permitting, the two thorny issues still to go. >> it is. the clock is ticking. the decision to have a real compromise here is going to mean a lot as the deputy secretary has said. but i think also, on the other side, i've been on the phone a lot with people in the white house. national action network bureau chief has been there. they're saying there can be a bridge too far. i think that the president and others are also trying not to, at the end of the day, do something that would be permanently damaging. i'd be interested for the deputy secretary comment on that.

because you don't want to see the people, the veterans, the seniors, people that are depending on the government for either their salaries or their benefits, you don't want to see them hurt with a -- our failing to deal with the debt relief. at the same time, you don't want to put them on the chopping block in an unfair way, on an unjustifiable way, to stop a hostage takeover by the right wing. i think that balance there, a lot of people are not appreciating. >> yeah, i think, reverend sharpton, you're completely right. we want to make sure the economy that the president worked so hard to build with congress and the american people continues to be strong. as you know, we created 12 million jobs during the presidency. economy is growing. inflation is coming down. it is critical any deal reached continues the momentum. the president is committed to giving the negotiators room to do that, negotiate.

he's been really clear about what he believes in. he led a comprehensive budget that brings down our debts and deficits by $3 trillion while making investments in america. that's what he is calling for in the negotiations. >> deputy secretary of the treasury, wallywally, thank you joining us this morning. >> thanks for having me. new reporting on two of donald trump's mar-a-lago employees moving boxes of papers the day before a visit by fbi agents and a prosecutor. they were there to remove classified documents in response to a subpoena. that timing is now being viewed as suspicious and a potential indication of possible obstruction, joe. this seems to me like some of the clearest reporting yet as to exactly what jack smith is looking at and potentially what he could charge. >> yeah, no doubt about it. why don't we bring in the co-author of the story. "washington post" reporter covering the justice department,

perry stein. tell us about what you guys uncovered. >> yeah, thanks for having me. "the washington post," we reported yesterday that the day before that justice department officials and fbi agents came to mar-a-lago to collect, to retrieve materials that they asked for in a subpoena, we learned that the day before that, there's now evidence that boxes were moved back. boxes with classified materials were moved back into the storage room. that suggests that there was -- we knew that after the subpoena out. now, we know boxes were moved back in before law enforcement officials came to collect them. >> perry, one of the things that was so interesting in your reporting was also that he left some of these documents, reportedly, out for potentially people to see. i wanted to ask you more about that, what more do you know about that? how much does it matter, as you've been talking to justice department officials, as to what those documents he may have left

out are about? i know we don't know the answer to that yet, but tell us a little more about that piece of your reporting. >> yeah, so we don't know exactly who he showed them to, what he did with them, what the specific documents say. we know he was showing them. i mean, it is a crime to mishandle classified material, so i am sure that plays into both, you know, what the crime he potentially or people there potentially committed and possibly into intent, as well. >> perry, give us a sense, if you will, who investigators have been speaking to at mar-a-lago. are these employees? they've pierced attorney/client privilege for one of the attorneys trump is using because that person is heavily involved in this. walk us through who smith, the special counsel, has been talking to. >> we know from this reporting yesterday that there were two employees, at least we know of now, that were moving documents around after the subpoena was issued and before they came to collect on that subpoena.

so the one that has been public so far is a valet, meaning an aide to trump. this person was a staffer at mar-a-lago, this second person. they seem to be staff members who were moving the documents around. the lawyer for one of these people told us on the record yesterday that, "my guy had no idea what he was doing. he was just moving these boxes to help out he didn't know what was in them or he was potentially committing a crime." >> perry stein of "the washington post," thank you for your reporting. appreciate it. you know, reverend al, they do know. they do understand at mar-a-lago. from, let's just say, my reporting, donald trump understands he's in serious trouble here. when you have a judge in this case that has already pierced the attorney/client privilege because -- well, the only time a

judge can do that is when they believe a crime may have been committed through that attorney/client privilege. at that point, you get this information about the boxes being moved the day before the doj and fbi come down. donald trump does understand, has to understand, and everybody around him has to understand, this is not going to end well for him or people that are close to him. >> not only do they understand that it's not going to end well, they know more than any of us know. until recently, what the prosecutors knew what they did. it was a question, i believe, of them finding a ways that they would try to limit what would be discovered. i think that they know very well, like anybody that does anything that is wrong or even criminal, what is the possible things that could be discovered, which is why they made these

moves that seem desperate. but you may be guessing at just the tip of the iceberg of a lot of things. i think that's what we're seeing. to move boxes the day before they are coming to a deal with this matter seems to me that you're dealing with people that are really, really panicking on the possibilities of what could be uncovered. >> no doubt about it. rev, by the way, get out your preaching bible, baby. because the return of "faith on friday" coming up next. we're going to be remembering a prominent figure in evangelicalism. even though he stopped calling himself an evangelical later in life. reverend tim keller brought a unique style of preaching to new york city. "morning joe" coming right back. . now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪

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if i believe that jesus christ actually, physically rose from the dead, that it's not just a nice, symbolic story

about how spring comes after winter and good somehow triumphs, if i believe he got up out of the grave physically, then as a believer in jesus, then i can face death and say it's going to be all right. >> the reverend talking to me in 2021 after he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer the prior year, sounding an awful lot like my mom and dad. reverend keller died last friday at the age of 72. with us now for "faith on fridays" is editor of newyorker.com, michael lillor, and the chief of christianity today. he was the author of "losing our religion -- an altar call for

evangelical america." and before we talk about that and get into some of the things that tim said about his concern about where the evangelical church was going, michael, first, let's just talk about just the remarkable, remarkable things that he did in new york city. and of course i didn't know it at the time, but we had gone to the redeemer at the same time for several years. and i think i told you i was shocked i missed services one day, shuffled up to amsterdam on 72nd, 5:30 in the afternoon, got there early, there wasn't a seat in that huge church. it was an extraordinarily diverse crowd, and everybody in there was about ten years younger than me. and i saids, in new york city?

this is amazing what this to guy has done. talk about it. >> yeah. i mean, tim founded redeemer in 1989, and within three years it grew to a thousand people. 9/11 was a pivotal moment for the church and its attendance shot up after that and stayed high. it was i think across all the different services, 5,000, 6,000, 7,000, sometimes kind of hard to count exactly, but it was a remarkable place, and as you said, really diverse, a lot of young professionals, artists, bankers, lawyers, journalists. and i got to know tim in 2006 when i wrote a story about him for "the new york times," and this was -- at that point, he

was well-known among, you know, i think the kind of christian community, a certain kind of christian community, evangelical sort of community, but didn't really have a national profile. i think that came actually fairly late in his life when he started writing books. a "new york times" best-selling book, "reason for god" number six and he consumer sentiment pumping them out. that's when he really became i think a figure much wider renown. >> and russell, the thing i noticed when i went to redeemer believe it or not on central park west, right, and i think 64th, is you would think that -- somebody would think if i'm going to be, like, preaching in manhattan, this is not fertile ground for my message. so i'm going to, like, kind of soft pedal this.

no, he went right at them. he said if you're here, you're here because you're probably too ambitious, your job gets in the way of what you're doing as a husband or as a son or as a daughter or as a -- whatever. i mean, he went after people -- he knew his audience, instead of playing to them, he went straight at them, which reminded me, reminded me of a call that you told me about that you had with him when he was literally in the hospital for his last time, and as he was dying, he was listening, wasn't talking, but he felt the need to interrupt you, to correct you. to straighten your theology out. talk about that. >> well, he corrected my theology many times, but this was actually a friend of ours who said something, and tim instrumented from his hospital bed to say, that's not the gospel.

that's moralism, which was a big part of his message, of course, was that it's not about doing better and doing more and achieving, which was especially important in new york city. and it would have been really easy, as you mentioned, for tim to be a hack in a couple ways. he could have shaved off all of the hard edges of the truth and not respected his people intellectually, or he could have treated new york as some sort of a skarpy place that he could raise money off of and go around the world and say i'm in the belly of the beast. he didn't do that either. he loved new york. he loved jesus. he respected the people he talked to. and he did so with integrity and patience. there was a new york city pastor who texted me the other day and said gandolf isn't supposed to die. that's the way many of us feel. he was a christian gandolph, a sage, and had wisdom and not

just wisdom but an example that's going to be missed. >> michael, obviously, reverend keller was one that surprised many of us in new york in ministry. what he did was phenomenal. authenticity. i think that one of the things that you could observe from his ministry is people believed he was authentic. this wasn't a marketing scheme. this wasn't him going with what was trending in religious circles at the time. talk about that. you've studied and written about authenticity being a key part of his charisma. >> that's a really great point. this wasn't a strategy for him. i remember visiting his home in roosevelt island, him and kathy, and what i remember about his apartment was the bookshelves. they were just overflowing with books. and what i would say was actually crucial to his success

was he was a reader. he just -- his sermons -- he cited everything from, you know, the kind of standards of c.s. lewis, j.r. tolkien but also jane jacobs, charles taylor, who was a philosopher. and he wasn't doing this from, you know, a kind of a strategic sort of point of view of how do i reach sort of people. he was genuinely curious. i mean, one of the defining, i think, features of his ministry was he was friends with a ton of to really influential journalists, politicians, people -- academics. you know, i mentioned in my piece to, like, everybody from, like, joe scarborough, our very own joe scarborough to francis collin, who's head of the nih to -- i mean, he was friendly with george bush, friendly with

nick kristof, david brooks. i mean, you know, and i think they were drawn to him because he had this kind of intellect and this curiosity, i think it was kind of his pastoral side of him. i got to know him as a journalist first and them i started going to the his church. he really became a friend. what i've been saying to people is he was a good friend as in not necessarily because i think, like, we were -- you know, i was in his inner circle or anything, but he listened. he remembered things in my life. he asked questions all the way to the very end. i mean, that's what's emotional for me, thinking about that it's been a week since he passed away. >> here's tim a decade ago on "morning joe," where he walked about the influence of faith in the workplace. >> the problem is that when you make your work your identity, which of course is what we're invited to do in our culture

now, especially the professionals, when you make it your identity, you identify with your work, and if you're successful, it goes to your head and destroys you. if you're not successful, it destroys your self-worth. and what you need with faith, is faith gives you an identity that's not in work or accomplishment, and that gives you ins place against the weather changes. so, if you're successful, you stay humble, if you're not successful, you have some balance, so basically making your work your identity, an idol to use the terminology, a big sin in new york city. >> it reminds me of something that we've all -- i'll just speak for you and tim and myself, let michael speak for himself, but the idols that have been set up over the past seven, eight years in the evangelical

movement, and this is -- in michael's piece, he says, "the meaning of evangelical changed radically, no longer describing a set of historic doctrines. those who claim the minor league moral ground, in pop larp usage, it's nearly snons with hypocrite. he returned to what he called little-e evangelism, defined not by a political party but by theological l beliefs." russell, we've talked about this. this has become a political identifier instead of a faith that, at least when we were growing up, evangelical was a response to the pentecostals who put walls up against the world and said we're just going to

hunker down here and keep the world outside of us. that's what tim is talking about. you're supposed to be separate from the world but open and forward facing to the world and accepting and forgiving not only of ourselves but of others. and that seems to be what tim understood all too well and what we've lost. >> well, he did understand it, and you can even see that in his dying days. he really did believe that jesus christ was raised from the dead. and that gained him a confidence. i remember i had him as a guest with me when i was teaching a class out of the institute of politics at the university of chicago in which almost all of the students were completely secular skeptical to religion, and one said to tim, why do you want to use the word evangelical when it's such a plitt sized and hypocritical word right now? tim said because most of us are in africa and asia and north america and the north americans

don't get to choose our name just because we've messed it up. >> wow. >> the student said, "fair enough," and sat down. >> thank you so much. greatly appreciate you very much. thanks for coming in, russell and michael. just remember tim meant so much. by the way, michael, i feel like i need to -- my son just sent this to me. told him you were a big liverpool fan. did you see salah's tweet yesterday? >> i did. >> i'm totally devastated. there's no excuse for this. we had everything we needed to make it to next year's champions league, and we failed. we are liverpool. qualifying is the bare minimum. i am sorry. it is too soon for an uplifting or optimistic statement. that's kind of how we all feel, isn't it, michael? >> i mean, we care. mo salah cares, and the squad let us down this year, but we'll

be back. >> we will be back. thank you guys both. greatly appreciate it. the third hour of "morning joe" continues right now with this. one of trump's great advantages is he talks at a level where third, fourth, and fifth-grade educations can say oh, yeah, i get that, i understand it. now trump has made the republican party the party of working americans in a way that probably hasn't been true for almost 100 years. >> yeah, because in 100 years, there hadn't been a politician that said i think i'm going to make this so third-graders can understand what i'm talking about. that was newt gingrich actually encouraging ron desantis to get on the level of third-graders. i'm not joking. kind of like donald trump does. wonder what he means. >> this is a tough hurricane, one of the wettest we've ever seen from the standpoint of

water. rarely have we had an experience like it, and it certainly is not good. >> oh, my god. one of the wettest we've had. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." hope you've had a good week. it is friday. friday, may 26th. let's bring in with us the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief of politico to, jonathan lemire and the host of "inside with jen psaki," jen psaki, former white house press secretary, also pliltser prize-winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson, who's enthralled by the meteorological report from donald trump. and donny deutsch. and assistant for "the washington post," david ignatius. well, what a day of news yesterday as the most high-profile bit of the january 6th investigation was sentenced to 18 years in prison. you heard that right.

18 years in prison. the stiffest penalty handed out so far in what's become one of the biggest criminal probes in u.s. history. nbc news justice correspondent ken dilanian has more. >> reporter: one of the key figures behind the january 6th attack on the capitol facing the toughest sentence in more than a thousand prosecutions. stewart rhodes, the founder and leader of a far-right group called the oath keepers, was sentenced to 18 years in prison after being convicted of seditious conspiracy, using violence to prevent the government from carrying out its lawful duties. rhodes was not physically present at the capitol during the january 6th attack but judge ahmed meta said he conspired with others to help make it happen and to take up arms and foment revolution. a former army paratroomer who graduated from yale law school, rhodes wore an orange prison jump suit during the dramatic court hearing. he show nod remorse, defiantly telling the judge that he krld

himself a political prisoner. the judge responded to rhodes, "you, sir, present an ongoing threat and a peril to this country, to the republic, and the very fabric of our democracy." rhodes' lawyers promised an appeal. >> well, i think that this case was all about the weaponization of speech by the department of justice, and i think that essentially they have used stewart rhodes' words against him. >> reporter: prosecutors say rhodes spent weeks after the election plotting to use violence to keep president trump in power. the judge applied a so-called terrorism enhancement to rhodes' sentence. the first time that has happened in a january 6th case. >> it's a very significant sentence, and it sends a very i think important message of deterrence. >> yeah, it really does, an important message of deterrence, something that republicans used to support. that was nbc's ken dilanian with the report. as we told you yesterday, the writer who was photographed with his feet on a desk of then

speaker nancy pelosi's during the insurrection has been sentenced to 4 1/2 years in prison as well. and florida governor and 2024 hopeful ron desantis promise ls, if elected president, he, like donald trump, would consider pardoning some of the convicts who rioted on charges related to january 6th, the insurrection at the capitol. he made the comments on a radio show. take a listen. >> the doj and fbi have been wep nitzed. we see that. we see it in a variety of continue text, some of which you mentioned, some of it is the fbi going after parents going to school board meetings, some of it is how they treat a pro-life demonstrator, how they don't go after people that are attacking pro-lifers. what i'm going to do on day one, i will have folks that will get together and look at all these cases who people are victims of weaponization or political targeting, and we will be aggressive in issuing pardons.

some of these cases, some people may have a technical violation of the law, but if there are three other people who did the same thing but just in a context like blm and they don't get prosecuted at all, that is uneven application of justice. >> i mean, he's not really that stupid. maybe he's talking like a third-grader. talking about people who tried to overthrow american democracy and ron knows that, yet he's playing that game. recall how donald trump responded to a question about pardons for gymnastics rioters in a recent cnn town hall meeting. >> my question is, will you pardon the january 6th rioters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say every single one because a couple, they probably

got out of control. they've persecuted these people. my answer is i am most likely, if i get in, i will most likely -- i would say it would be a large portion of them. >> it's unbelievable. the party of law and order? for the poor? is it law and order for the dispossessed? is it law and order for, what, everybody but rioters who try to overthrow the federal government to keep a republican in the white house after he lost? you know, they're talking about pardoning -- people like stewart rhodes who said they won't fear us until we come with rifles in our hands. stewart rhodes wrote a message ahead of january 6th saying after the attack there was a recording played in court during his trial where he said, oh, i'm

a political prisoner, and trump saying he's a political prisoner, desantis saying they're all political prisoners, it's the fbi and doj's fault, don't you understand? no. it's stewart rhodes' fault. after, after january 6th, after the cops had the hell beaten out of them with american flags, he said his only regret was we should have brought rifles. let me tell you something, about 400 rioters have already received sentences for their crime, for their violent, vile acts committed on january 6th, their anti-american, their treasonous acts. 200 have been incarcerated for that rioting for the people v beating of cops. support the blue? not quite. not even close. for donald trump and his rioters, it was beat the hell out of the cops. yes, they were planning to overthrow american democracy.

it's called sedition. law enforcement still seeking 350 criminals who committed violent acts at the capitol. that search goes on. and trust me, the rioters will be found, and they will be brought to justice too. you know, trump praised these rioters you ear looking at, they praised the seditionists, the convicts, and they september a very clear, very loud message to others who tried to overthrow the federal government while beating the hell out of cops with american flags that our troops have proudly marched into battle for over two centuries. storm government buildings, destroy american democracy. that's okay. stand back and stand by. let me tell you something. the rotted korms of what once was the republican party, the corpse keeps lurching forward, zombie-like, and it will follow

donald trump into whatever gutter he takes them on this eight-year march toward fascism, not something quite like fascism but fascism itself. and to think the republican party i grew up in, the conservatives that -- well, they claim to be conservatives. they once talked about being a party of law and order, and they argued that criminal penalties did not just punish the violators like stewart rhodes but also discouraged other people from committing those same violent crimes. but no more, ron desantis. no more, donald trump. wow. you think that's going to the win swing voters in the suburbs? you've got another thing coming. the only thing i can say, thank god for the judicial branch. let me say that again because i say it a lot. thank god for the judicial branch, the only one of the

three branches that stayed true to madison's promise of checks and balances across our great republic's government. federal judges, both conservative and liberal alike, did not mindlessly follow donald trump. and that's why the rule of law still reigns supreme in america and why justice keeps getting done in courthouses across america every day. and, hey, guess what? if you're out there, if you're committing crimes, if you commit violent acts on january 6th, they're coming to get you and bring you in not as a political prisoner but as somebody who defiled the united states capitol and tried to shred the constitution of the united states. and know this -- justice will be served. david ignatius, i look at stewart rhodes' conviction yesterday, 18 years.

i don't think it's enough, but that's what they got for him, 18 years. and what message does that send to all the other people out there that listen to idiots on podcasts or on websites that are saying let's overthrow the federal government? because i've heard this for 30 years from wing nuts on the far reaches of parties. donald trump tried to bring it mainstream, and a lot of people are sitting in jail for a very long time because of it. >> joe, the words of the judge in the stewart rhodes case ring in my mind. they should ring in everybody's -- you, sir, are an ongoing threat and a peril to this country. and they gave him an 18-year sentence. he insisted that there is no crime worse that he could hear her than seditious conspiracy. it is a message, as you've been

saying, that this judge -- and i think you're right, the court system in general -- will not tolerate the kind of behavior we saw on january 6th. but i thought this judge was especially direct, blunt in calling stewart rhodes what he is, which is a person who wants to overturn the system of government we have in this country. i'm glad he was so specific. now we've got to see whether justice can finish these prosecutions, can keep going, and, indeed, will approach the person who it is argued launched the january 6th riot in the first place, and that's former president trump. >> the other thing that struck me here, i think, is there's been so much criticism from democrats, a lot of it maybe warranted, about the pace of the department of justice has it relates to the prosecution of trump. people want something to happen out there, but they strategically went after these rioters, went after these

insurrectionists first. they did that purposefully for that deterrence impact that we heard mary mccord talk about earlier in the show. and that's interesting, too, because to some degree at this point, what they set out to do is working, at least to date. we saw that in the wake of the trump indictment where there was not thousands of people gathering, ready to take down government buildings. let's hope that continues. but this is a moment where i think the department of justice and their strategy does warrant some, you know, support and i guess aplautz to some degree. i want to can you, eugene, how you think democrats, progressives. the base of the democratic party that are frustrated that nothing has happened to donald trump are digesting the sentencing of rhodes and the fact that finally something is happening but it's not quite trump. how do you think that's playing throughout? >> well, 18 years is a

significant prison sentence, and i think it got everybody's attention. and i think people see it as heartening that these crimes that were committed on january 6th are being taken seriously. you know, a lot of people know people who were convicted of we now think of as relatively minor drug offenses who have long prison terms like that. and i think it says something really positive about the judicial branch, as jen said, and about the justice department that, no, this is being taken seriously that stewart rhodes got 18 years in prison and that this very systemic, drawn-out prosecution of the rioters and

this attempt to round them all up and identify them and bring them to justice continues and will continue. and, yes, the big question is does it go up the ladder to the person who inspired and sum mitch mcconnelled the rioters and sent them off to the capitol? and that would be former president trump. and that's a question for special counsell jack smith and attorney general merrick garland. we'll find out the answer. >> jonathan lemire, you wrote the book on the big lie and on january 6th. you have one person being convicted after another. as they're about to be sentenced, they're saying i didn't do it because of me, i was following donald trump. he told us to be there. he tweeted it out a month before, said come on january 6th, and of course trump said, "it will be wild." trump told the rioters to stand

back and stand by, told white nationalists during the debates to stand back and stand by. in the most recent appearance on cnn at the town hall meeting, what did he say? he called january 6th a beautiful day and said that those people that beat the hell out of cos with the american flag were there with love in their hearts. you talk about somebody like stewart rhodes, who doesn't have an ounce, an ounce of regret for sitting there and watching rioters destroy cops and violate the inner sanctum of the u.s. capitol, has absolutely no regret whatsoever. and i am just wondering, how do you send hundreds of people to jail for following the orders of donald trump and donald trump doesn't also get sent to jail for seditious conspiracy?

memo to everybody a couple months ago, says nobody will get charged with that, they are in fact getting charged for exactly what they did, taking part in the conspiracy, the sedition against our republic. >> stewart rhodes compared himself to nelson mandela and he said his only regret was that they didn't bring rifles. other members of the oath keepers expressed some remorse, received slightly lighter sentences. 18 years is a lot. we do wait, as this is the largest investigation in the fbi and doj's history, and it has been slow at times but it has been steady. we have seen conviction after conviction after conviction moving up the ladder. jack smith, who has a lot on his plate, talking about mar-a-lago's documents, which we'll get into, but certainly is looking at january 6th and whether they can prove that this, indeed, that violence we keep seeing here, that violence was inspired by donald trump and donald trump himself.

donnie, donald trump hasn't walked away from it at all. he has suggested that he will pardon the vast majority of those who rioted that day. he has appeared with convicts, january 6th convicts, who have formed a chorus and donald trump has used that music for his rallies. now we have ron desantis launching his bid and suggesting he would issue pardons as well. how do you see this playing out in terms of the politics of it, in terms of the future of it, in terms of the republican party, where two say both, what those guys did on january 6th, we'll let them walk? >> i want to go to desantis first because we know what trump's going to do. what would happen if god forbid ron desantis came out and said i'm a law and order candidate. would he lose the complete base or would the republican party go, we have the same person? that's such a plausible thing to do, yet he's just following trump, and you won't get there

by not zigging while trump is zagging. that's number one. number two, if the republicans lose law and order, what do they have? that's the cornerstone of -- >> they've lost it. >> that's the cornerstone of where they are. i could not wait to cut commercials together using that image and superimposing it on desantis. that is going to be so powerful. this will be the first presidential election with what i'm going to call the footage, the material, the proof points to use all that footage you've been looking at the last two or three minutes. if you don't have that and -- by the way, if you're desantis, you're losing business with disney, so they keep chipping at the cornerstones of what the republican party used to be. once again, this is going to come back to bite them, particularly in the case of desantis. why are you being new coke first coke? >> still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on the debt ceiling. there are new reports this morning the white house and top

republicans are, surprise, surprise, edging closer to a deal. and a major shake-up within cpac as a top leader resigns. we'll bring you the reporter who broke that story and talks about a, quote, cancer growing on cpac.

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coming up, president putin is facing new pressures from someone who's supposed to be his ally. david ignatius weighs in on the ramifications of that and whether there will be a revolution like, quote, 1917. that's next on "morning joe." when you sleep more deeply, you wake up more energized. introducing purple's new mattresses our unique gel flex grid draws away heat,

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more shocking news out of cpac this morning. the treasurer of that organization has resigned, citing financial mysteries surrounding the chairman and his resignation letter. bob beaupre raised concerns over how cpac is funding his legal defense against a lawsuit accusing him of sexual assault against a male aid. beaupre also detailed several financial discrepancies, writing, "a cancer has been metastasizing within the let's bring in the political reporter who wrote the "new york" magazine article about these allegations, ben jacobs. a lot to sort through here. we've heard this story. this is wayne lapierre stuff at the nra. it seems like the nra and cpac

just can't keep their books straight. but this is connected to i think perhaps a bigger scandal in cpac that the board appears to be, i don't know, trying to cover up or trying to defend. >> well, i think that's right, joe, that the board is made up of matt schlapp's friends at this point, it's a hand-picked board, and they're all on his team and all fed information by him that determines what decisions they make. and at this point, bob beauprez has sort of broken away. he sent this letter which got leaked by the board in order to raise these concerns. it's a sign that at this point that even those who are his friends are having real concerns over the management at cpac and what is going on and how broken this institution has become. >> so, ben, let's channel newt gingrich and talk about this in a way that third-graders could

understand it. can you break it down in case people don't know the ugliness that's been going on in cpac for quite some time? where did this begin, accusations against matt schlapp, and what is the treasurer accusing the board of doing? >> there are allegations against schlapp that while campaigning for herschel walker in 2022, he downed a significant portion -- significant -- he's alleged to have drank a lot of alcohol and then groped a male staffer. and this has sort of set off a chain of events, and there's questions now whether cpac is paying for his legal defense. the treasurer said they advanced him -- 50,000 with the initial allegations. keep in mind he raised more than $250,000 that's gone to his

legal defense. there are allegations of financial mismanagement, staff turnover, an organization over the past three years that's churned through employees at a pretty remarkable pace and generally that the books aren't straight, that as "the washington post" reported earlier that just last year schlapp started paying himself a salary that previously he has done this, you know, without a salary, that it was a significant six-figure salary to supplement his everyday job as a lobbyist. >> wow. donny, we've talked about the nra and you could talk about donald trump, all the indictments out there against him, here with cpac. this has been until recent years, this has been where all conservative candidates have gone. they didn't this year because, again, there's just this cloud that hangs over it. but i always talk about how republicans have become, like, you know, the jim and tammy fae

bakker, donald trump has become the jim and tammy fae bakker of american politics, squeezing every last dime out of retirees and other people they can sucker, and then they never follow through on what they say they'll do, whether it's for legal defense funds or something else. but, you know, we get the parallels. you have jim and tammy fae bakker, orr oral roberts, jimmy swagger, the catholic church, the southern baptist church, all of these scandals. now it seems it's moving to the conservative movement, one scandal after another scandal, one indictment after another indictment. i don't know how the conservative brand is not just absolutely tarnished for decades to come. >> what is the conservative brand right now? what do they stand for? basically it's hate, it's grievance, anger, it's breaking of laws. the republicans should have a loom, and the loop should play

to them who is at the broad conservative movement and really med it relevant to americans? ronald reagan. they are anti-ronald reagan, everything he stood for, decency, taking conservativism and making it relevant to the majority of americans. the conservative movement now is just stuck. it's stuck and it stands for nothing from a positive point of view. except anger, hatred, and complete chaos. as you said, i don't see it coming back anytime soon. when you have the knewnew byes the party, ron desantis playing the same exact tune, they've fallen and can't get up. >> what's next for cpac? is there a sense that schlapp is -- is it jeopardy? it's moly run by his friends. you know, certainly the cpac conference this year was diminished, smaller, despite trump's return, smaller and seemed to matter less than years before. how do you see this playing out? >> there are a couple scenarios.

in one case, this continues as is and cpac continues to diminish. it feels much more of a trump show that traditionally cpac is all encompassing of the conservative movement, but the conference this year was a narrow slice of people. one thing that was telling, people used to be physically banned from the conference were now speakers on the main stage. the other scenario is whether schlapp left voluntarily. it's unlikely the board is going to involuntarily deal with this. you know, that cpac is still -- it still has a brand but it's seeing competition from other conservative conferences. the question at this point is whether cpac becomes the r.c. cola of conservative conferences and fades away. >> i love r.c. cola. ben jacobs, thank you so much. coming up, our next guest

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now to russia. man, some crazy stuff going on there. russia's wagner mercenary group now is saying it's going to abandon bakhmut, it's going to turn it over to russia's armed forces who they say can't hold the city. the group's leader says russia should not expect any more help from his forces in the city, which has seen some of the war's heaviest fighting over the last year. the news comes as the founder and leader of the wagner group is warning russia could lose the war in ukraine and face a revolution similar to that of 1917. let's bring back in david

ignatius. david, i don't know, maybe i'm over-reading this, but i'm not so sure i am. you have this leader of the wagner group constantly berating putin's inner circle, berating his military, by extension berating putin himself. he goes in and, you know, they lose maybe 100,000 mercenaries going in to hold down bakhmut, and then he decides to abandon it knowing that the russian army is not going to be able to hold it in the spring offensive. so this is a guy that's talking about revolution, he's talking about how there's chaos in russia, talking about how badly things are going, how russia can lose. it's almost as if he's trying to prove that himself by his retreat. >> joe, it's a bizarre situation. you have these taunts from essentially an oligarch who

formed his own militia, pretty big yevgeny prigozhin, used to be a friend of vladimir putin. the head of this militia denouncing the defense minister, the military leadership, saying he's not getting enough weapons, he did all the fighting. the most interesting thing to me, we have not heard a word from vladimir putin about this. as prigozhin rants and taunts, the leader stays in the kremlin aloof and silent. is that a deliberate strategy by putin to stay above it all, a sign he's losing control? we simply don't know. but the conversations i'm having with russian analysts go to this mystery of putin's passivity in this moment. what's going on? that's the subject i'm going to try and do some reporting on today. >> david, i would be really interested in that reporting

because my question is how does prigozhin say this stuff and say on putin's good side? how does he continue to live, frankly, by attack putin and everything he's doing and the way he's doing it in this manner? it doesn't seem to make sense unless prigozhin is angling for putin's job. this seems to be a very serious split. but i'm curious as to what your hunch is or what your feeling is. >> well, gene, it's no more than a hunch, but my sense has been for some years that putin, like many leaders of authoritarian countries, countries like syria or iran, likes to have competing intelligence services and operatives under him. they're all jockeying for power. no single one of them becomes strong enough to challenge the leader. prigozhin is checked by the

defense minister shoigu in this case, other leaders exert similar influence. you have all these centers of power under the leader, each ne dpating the other's ability to challenge the leader. the problem is that putin's fighting a war. as prigozhin said, this war was supposed to demilitarize ukraine. that was russia's objective. rather than demilitarizing it, ukraine is now becoming a military superpower in the center of europe. as prigozhin said, russia has achieved the opposite of what it intended. so whether that puts prigozhin back in the box is one of the questions we need to ask. if he doesn't, prigozhin will challenge him as president. to president. >> i want to ask you about bakhmut. so much of it is levelled because of this war. why is it so significant? when you mention the spring

offensive, what do you think is the next step in that? >> one of the mysteries to u.s. commanders for months has been why the ukrainians were devoting so much of their blood and treasure to defending bakhmut, which is a modestly strategic point. was it worth the cost they were paying? zelenskyy and the ukrainians said basically, we need to hold russian forces there while we prepare the broader offensive that we think is just about to start now this week. what will that look like? well, we have early signs the ukrainians have been very aggressive in going after russian command and control. they're trying to restrict russia's ability to move around the battlefield as this offensive begins as ukraine punches through this very long

front over a thousand kilometers. will the russians be able to respond and react? ukrainians hope they will be able to push through the land that connects russia to crimea and put the real prize for putin, which is crimea, at risk. if that happens, we'll be in a very different situation. i think we're just now this week getting to the point where that long-a long-awaited offensive is finally beginning. >> i do think they were successful in bogging down russian forces and exhausting their weapons where they feel like they'll be less able to defend the upcoming spring counter offensive. officials i talk to are growing more bullish about ukraine's chances. they still think ukraine can

make real progress in the south and east and, at minimum, go into potential negotiations. >> and people are looking at this as maybe a victory that the russians can put in the books as a win. boy, a victory with horrific costs, over 100,000 casualties. they were bogged down while the ukrainians were getting ready for the spring offensive. it seems to me especially when you see the wagner group now talking about retreating and turning it over to a group of russian divisions that aren't going to be able to hold it, it's sort of a worst case scenario for the russians. you remember what russia was

like in '90? there was political anarchy, social anarchy, military anarchy. i've said for some time that the only thing i feared more than vladimir putin was russia after that. here's a guy who just a few days ago said we need to become basically more of a totalitarian state and russia needs to be north korea over the next three to four years. for all of those people out there, i'm not nominating vladimir putin for a nobel peace prize any time soon. it can also get worse. you look at this guy, who may be

angling to take vladimir putin's place. his vision for russia is not a greater russia, it's north korea. >> there are no indications that i know of so far of 1917-style unrest within russia. that's not happening. on the other hand, the sort of parallel is that in 1917 when russia was bogged down in a war just sort of feeding soldiers into that mill sort of started with the army and the navy and sort of the next thing you knew there was a revolution. i don't think that's about to happen in russia. we should remember that really, really bad things can happen really quickly in russia. so you never know when we're at

one of those tipping points. yes, things could get worse. coming up, we're going to be talking to peter baker with his latest reporting on the debt ceiling. and president biden's ramped-up election campaign. biden's rampe election campaign.

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somebody who can draw people in who may not have been traditionally been republicans and are willing to give us a shot. >> welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." 6:00 a.m. on the east coast, 9:00 a.m. on the west coast. jen, let's comment on ron desantis there. people are going to say he's awkward, et cetera, et cetera. i saw a proposed speech, which nobody will listen to. it's a great point. hey, i'm not going to be a good reality tv show, i'm not going to own a resort where i'm going to go around table by table and glad hand people. you want that, you got that. you know, indictments come with

that too and a lot of chaos and a lot of lost elections. i'm going to governor. maybe i'm not as smooth a talker as you guys would like. >> he certainly needs a path of his own. he is trying right now to appease the trump base. he's been trying that for months. it isn't exactly working. what you're proposing there, what others have called for is the other path, which is, can he reach the sane republicans out there who may have conservative views, but don't want all of the crazy, which is somebody who's going to pardon insurrectionists, somebody who has suggested they could pardon trump. then there could be a debate

about policy issues. i think the biden team would be happy to have that with desantis about some of his positions on abortion and concealed carry. that's not the path desantis has chosen. there's been a lot of projection since november from many republicans and others who want an alternative to trump on the magic of ron desantis. we have not seen the magic yet. yes, he needs a different message, but does he have that magical charisma that you need to be president? we have not seen evidence of that at this stage. >> maybe we don't need magic. when i say we, i'm talking about people that would want to vote for ron desantis. maybe blocking and tackling, maybe getting the job done

without all the chaos. i have no doubt that a main street republican who is not crazy, who is pro small business, pro entrepreneur, pro small government with a viewpoint the government does what it has to do but it doesn't overreach and a republican that actually supports nato and freedom across the globe. that person is going to win elections. in the age of trump, they're all going back to the one time where lightning struck in november of 2016, one time. that happened one time.

they lost in '17, '18, '19, '20, '21, '22 and '23. they lost or radically underperformed if you look at what happened in the house in 2022. maybe just a block and tackling republican, maybe if that's what ron desantis tries to do instead of all the crazy, maybe they win an election. >> lightning struck that one time in an election in which the republican candidate still lost the popular vote by 3 million votes and the fbi director put out a letter about an investigation into his democratic opponent about a week before the polls. a lot had to go right that one day for donald trump to win, but republicans have seemingly taken him as a model to follow ever since with the meanness, the culture wars which have not led

to a lot of success yet. desantis has brought all that to florida. we have to see whether or not that will translate on the national stage. we will see how that goes. the one thing he has done despite the glitchy launch on twitter spaces, he raised over $8 million in that first 24 hours. that's significant and does show there's an appetite among republicans for a non-trump candidate. he certainly has questions to answer, but to your

you have a member at arlington national cemetery. as we think about world war ii, vietnam, we also remember those we've lost this century in iraq and afghanistan. if i could just for one moment say too often, people love to get on tv and tell you how lives were wasted. every life lost is a horrible tragedy. yes, going into iraq to find weapons of mass destruction, horrific. i do want to say this memorial day weekend that we can focus on what richard engel told us on the 20th anniversary of the invasion of iraq, the facts were

harsh and critical toward the invasion of iraq in 2023. talking about younger iraqis, talking about freedom and self-determination, talking in a way they would never have talked about when saddam hussein was running that country. does that justify the war? no, that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying the men and women who fought and, yes, even died there,there are people in iraq right now who are living a better life with all the problems because of them, because of their ultimate sacrifice. afghanistan, i was against the withdrawal of troops in afghanistan. i know a lot of you were as well. statement for 20 years, seeds of freedom and self-determination were planted in afghanistan and

sacrifice about men and women in uniform. history can't be summarized in a tweet. and it certainly can't be summarized at the end of one year or even five or ten. those that gave all the in afghanistan actually built a better future for the people of afghanistan. i think the taliban and other theo cats will not be able to hold down self-determination and freedom. will it look like jeffersonian freedom? it won't. but going into this memorial day weekend we are so grateful for the men and women who serve across the globe and for those who gave their all not only for our freedom, but for the freedom of others.

stewart rhodes was sentenced to 18 years in prison in connection with the january 6th insurrection, 18 years. we're seeing 4 1/2 years for the guy that went into pelosi's office, we're seeing 18 years for stewart rhodes. we're seeing justice being served and federal judges having absolutely no use for these people who actually tried to overturn a presidential election. >> this is what accountability looks like. attorney general garland says the stiff sentence imposed on stewart rhodes and his top deputy reflect the grave actions to our democratic institutions. the justice department the will

continue to hold accountable those criminally responsible for the attack. it's the longest sentence imposed on any january 6th defendant so far. oath keepers founder stewart rhodes given 18 years in prison in connection with the attack on the nation's capitol. rhodes was convicted of seditious conspiracy, using violence to prevent the government from carrying out its lawful duty. rhodes was not physically present at the capital during the january 6th attack. officials say rhodes plotted after the election to use violence to keep trump in power. >> we are stationed outside d.c. as a nuclear onyx. >> he conspired with others to help make it happen and take up

arms and foment revolution. he tells the judge he considers himself a political prisoner. the judge dismissed that claim saying, you sir, present an ongoing threat to the republican and the fabric of our democracy. the judgment has arrested more than a thousand people in connection with the riot. the capitol assault also left more than 140 members of law enforcement injured, one of them a former capitol police sergeant says justice has been served. >> it was not peaceful. it was chaos. >> rhodes' lawyers vowing to appeal, accusing the justice department of weaponizing rhodes' words against him. >> he never went into the capitol, nor assaulted anyone or

destroyed property. we think this is ultimately about free speech. >> the judge applied a so-called terror enhancement, finding his crimes were by intimidation or coercion. another high profile defendant convicted of sedition is scheduled to be sentenced on august 30th, joe. >> let's bring in msnbc legal analyst charles coleman, dave aronberg and republican strategist susan dell pers owe. peter, i want to get to what we were just talking about. first, let's talk about the debt ceiling negotiations. you and i have been around washington a pretty long time. maybe i'm just too cynical when

people are talking about the economy melting down, i've just seen too many times the deal gets done. does it look like we're moving in that direction here? >> it does. you can see the outline of a deal starting to emerge. the negotiators went late last night. they're looking at imposing spending caps for two years. there are a lot of details still to be worked out. you can see how they get there. the question then becomes if in fact biden and mccarthy can agree, can they pull their caucuses to get through the house. mccarthy has a narrow majority. democrats aren't happy with some of the things that might be in this deal as well, so president biden is going to lose a lot of

them. the question is can they get together a majority and will both leaders come out feeling okay about it rather than being attacked by people on the right and left who don't like the deal. >> this is crazy. you negotiate. you walk away from the deal with extremes on both sides not happy, but you find people of both parties that stop the united states from defaulting. it actually sounds like a pretty healthy system right now, at least with these negotiations. >> you're right that we do seem to be having productive conversations. that's not a word you've heard a lot in the last few years in washington. neither side is going to be happy with the compromises we made, but it is a divided government and you're going to have to give something in order to get something.

that's where both sides seem to be focused for the moment. >> speaking about radical concepts, guess what, there are a lot of democrats saying, no, we're not going to cut anything. actually when new york state democrats couldn't figure out a way to properly redistrict in a way that wouldn't be overturned by courts, they lost the house. there are consequences to that. if you can't win elections, republicans even by the barest of margins they underperformed radically but they still control it by the barest of margins. there are consequences. this is what legislating is about. you want to have a clean debt ceiling increase, win both houses next time. >> that's right. nothing motivates congress to act like a fiscal deadline right

before a holiday weekend where everyone is trying to get home. i think we'll see a deal work out. the big question is how many democrats can kevin mccarthy get on board and how many republicans will he lose? i was thinking about the margaret thatcher quote where it used to be about doing something. now it's about being someone. there are a lot of members of congress who are more concerned about being someone. those members, if mccarthy can pass something with bipartisan support, are they going to go after his speakership? what faces him after this vote? i think he'll be okay, but this is going to be a significant time for mccarthy's time as speaker more than when they get to making a deal on the debt ceiling. >> you want to show biden being

able to work a deal with democrats and republicans. you have to go back a very long way to find a president that's had more bipartisan legislation passed. looks like he's doing it again. some progressives aren't happy about it, but quiet. is that part of the strategy to get the a negotiation strategy, not a messaging or communication strategy. there is not a single press or communications official who works in the white house now that would design this as their messaging strategy, because obviously they're ceding a lot of public ground to kevin mccarthy and republicans. what president biden learned when i was still there is that when you tell the public every development that's happening in negotiations, sometimes it kills the deal. so in the white house right now they've been through many, many

rodeos and they know that they have to stay quiet to give kevin mccarthy a little bit of public space right now to get a final deal. the thing that is concerning with the officials i talked to is it's very unclear how many votes kevin mccarthy can get. there's definitely unrest among members of the democratic party as well, among the progressive wing of the party, that's for sure. some of them will not vote for a at's challenging for the white house too, because it's hard to know how many they need to pull up from the democratic side. it's a get-the-deal-done strategy. >> amateurs run to microphones to tell people where they're going every step of the way.

i'm reminded of democrats criticizing each other. you've got a negotiating partner who's having trouble with not only his base, but the majority of the republican conference. so you give that person space. you're not going out there saying things like we're getting the better of him here or there. even if your own side is complaining about what's going on, you stay quiet, get the deal done and then you can talk about it after. i don't know, it seems like joe biden's done this before. >> yeah. this is an approach he's used in the past. one exception was one day last weekend when the president was in japan and talks hit a snag,

once they got over that particular hurdle, the white house has gone quiet again. the bet inside the west wing is what has been so many times that voters will reward getting a big thing done. they'll forget the messiness and say, okay, the president got a bipartisan agreement done and we'll reward him for that next time we go to the ballot box. a word of caution here. the question is will they have the votes, because there are enough democrats who have signalled unhappiness about this deal, the white house thinks they need 100 or more of them. the clock is ticking here. they're going to have a lot of work to do in just a week's

time. >> it's a challenge for kevin mccarthy. it's a challenge for joe biden. it's also akeem jeffrey's first big challenge. there's no doubt joe biden, kevin mccarthy and akeem jeffreys are all on the same team. that's the team that says we can't default and let the u.s. economy go belly up. they're going to have to figure out how we get 218 votes in the house. i think a lot of people are going to be looking at akeem jeffreys to say are you going to get those 100 or so democrats that you need because of all the republican defections. >> that's why you see him reacting to his caucus.

people want a more outspoken message out there. it also gives him credibility when the moment comes and hakeem jeffries says let's corral these votes. he's untested too. he's a new figure in this leadership. it's been nancy pelosi's party for a long time. he's got the support we think of a lot of members of his caucus. now he has to bring them over the finish line if we get there. >> there are some things that we're used to. if there's a tax bill coming down the pike, chances are good the billionaires and the really big corporations are going to be taken care of.

when people start whining and wimpering about the united states going into default, it always seems at the 11th hour the sides come together, simply because the consequences of not getting the deal done are so catastrophic. how is wall street responding to the latest news that seems to suggest they're coming together? >> look at the markets. pretty well. they operate in facts. they can't be reading the tea leaves. they have to say what is the information i know now. right now they know we do not have a deal and the clock is

ticking. they're saying we could be heading to a downgrade and they need to be extra careful. investors are looking at this progress. remember, many big investors are also big gop donors. while they're not getting explainers, they are getting signals of what happens. >> the thing is, you're so right. mtg may be saying something. some of the other firebrands may be saying something, but there are a lot of people who helped put kevin mccarthy in the speaker's chair. this is what they say.

dude, you do what you want to do, you gesture however to play to the base, but on this don't screw with us, get this deal done. every republican speaker has heard that in the past. democratic leaders have heard that in the past. you are so right. that is the pressure, isn't it? >> joe, four weeks ago kevin mccarthy went down to the new york stock exchange, tap danced, made the calls. that was just five days after marjorie taylor greene did her big show around the financial district when donald trump was being arraigned, holding her nose saying our town was disgusting and filthy. kevin mccarthy ignored that and went right to where the money was. >> mitch is telling everybody, hey, calm down, we're going to

be fine. everybody stop ka tsa. tsa. we'll be watching the 11th hour weeknights on msnbc. coming up, we're going to talk about the sentencing of january 6th insurrectionists and also what that means for other people who may have plans in the future to, well, i don't know, listen to some of the craziest people on the far right about standing by for possible attacks against the government. i think we have sort of a deterrent factor coming in here. we're also going to talk to brian cox to talk about his latest film "mending the line." latest film "mending the line.

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. my question to you is, will you pardon the january 6th rioters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one, because a couple of them, probably they got out of control. what they've done to these people, they've persecuted these people. my answer is, i am most likely, i would say it will be a large portion of them. >> the doj and fbi have been weaponized. we see that in a variety of contexts, some of which you mentioned. some of it is the fbi going after parents going to school board meetings, some of it is how they treat a pro-life demonstrators. on day one, i will have spokes that get together and look at

all these cases who people are victims of weaponization or political targeting and we will be aggressive in issuing pardons. some of these cases, some people may have a technical violation of the law, but if there are three other people who did the same thing just in a context like blm and they don't get prosecuted at all, that is uneven application of justice. >> he seems to be staying here because donald trump in 2020 didn't prosecute some people who rioted on the fringes of the blm marches, because donald trump didn't prosecute them in 2020, somehow ron desantis wants to let people who tried to overthrow the u.s. government out of jail. doesn't really make sense.

we're going to let rioters and seditionists run free because donald trump didn't do his job in 2020. >> what he essentially said was, well, we've already seen what we are calling the buzzword around weaponization. we're going to weaponize it in the entire different direction. one thing i noticed as we were talking about the stewart rhodes sentencing was the notion of this terrorist enhancement the judge used as part of the sentencing. it sets straight the narrative about what actually occurred on january 6th, because we are seeing an attempt at whitewashing and rebranding history in a way that would sort of water down the actual narrative of what occurred on

that day. that terror enhancement is a really big piece to how we frame and contextualize january 6th. >> dave aronberg, this is such an expansive investigation. we've had a thousand arrests, 400 convictions, 200 people serving jail time. the majority of americans say that's a good thing that people who beat the hell out of cops with american flags and tried to destroy the united states capitol which people all over the world see as the epicenter of democratic freedom, well, those people are in jail. here you have trump cozying up to these convicts.

we have a convict choir that he salutes. he was asked in new hampshire what about the rioters. donald trump said, yeah, we're going to pardon most of those rioters. >> yesterday was a good day for democracy no matter what donald trump or ron desantis say. that 18-year sentence for stewart rhodes was a little less than i wanted but it was still strong punishment and will be a deterrent for future people like rhodes. he was unrependant,unrepentant political conspiracies. rhodes got under the recommended sentence of 25 years.

still, it is the longest sentence for any january 6th defendant and rhodes deserved every minute of it. his lack of remorse tells me he thinks the best chance for his future freedom comes not by showing contrition or legal appeals, but rather from a future republican president giving him a pardon. he said in open court he hopes trump wins in 2024. trump has said he would pardon large portions of january 6th defendants. now ron desantis said he's open to it. this is clearly a race to the bottom for the gop. >> stewart rhodes is making the same calculation as vladimir putin, that he will be saved by donald trump getting elected. what a pairing that is. susan del percio, these top two republicans, is this the party of law and order? they're saying they're going to

pardon rioters, seditionists, people who beat the hell out of cops with american flags. this morning i looked up deterrence. it's a theory that criminal penalties do not just punish violators like stewart rhodes, but also discourage other people from committing similar offenses. what have we been hearing republicans whining about for the past several years about liberal, progressive d.a.s not giving tough enough sentences and the fact that there is no deterrence to these crimes. they're talking for the most part about what's happening on the west coast and some east coast cities. here you're talking about what

happened at the heart of american democracy, an attempt overthrow american democracy and they're throwing the whole concept of deterrence out the window. there must be a reason, right? >> i don't understand the theory from some of these republican candidates running for president. the only person that's going to get trump voters if trump is in the race is donald trump. they need to start expanding their base. i heard you talking about who should own the law and order argument, why have democrats kind of given up on it. this, if anything, should be used politically against the republicans. this is who republicans support. they're the ones who want to defund the fbi because they don't like convictions.

it's political incompetence to watch this happen. as far as deterrence, i think it is actually important to recognize those 400 convictions like you said. people are hesitant to go through something like this again, also because at the end of the day they know donald trump doesn't have their back. >> since january 6th, oh well, this is what happened during the black lives matter marches. they didn't prosecute them or prosecute people who looted stores or had riots on the edges of those marches. well, actually some did. i hate to keep bringing up facts but i know it freaks people out who get their news from conspiracy sites, but donald trump was the president in 2020. donald trump had from june of 2020 to january of 2021 to bring

those prosecutions. if you have a problem with people not being prosecuted, take it up with donald trump. this whole idea that ron desantis is going to let seditionists go because the last republican president didn't prosecute people as aggressively, that's pure madness. the idea is if somebody does a bad job like donald trump prosecuting rioters in 2020, well, do a better job in 2023. don't let seditionists out of jail. what are ron desantis's political calculations in following donald trump down this road to anarchy? >> the blm protesters were arrested in great numbers. at least 10,000 arrests were made of protesters at some of those demonstrations.

the notion that somehow there were no arrests made is fiction, obviously. this is a political point, but it's not actually backed up by facts. desantis's calculation is basically to stay on the same side of the trump are part of the party until trump self-destructs. he's not going to get any air from trump in terms of that part of the party so when in fact he thinks i imagine there will be further indictments of trump and trump himself may collapse as a candidate and he wants to be there to pick up that base and say, see, things like playing to that very hard core base who

thinks the january 6th protesters are somehow dissidents rather than rioters. >> it's crazy. he brings up 10,000 people arrested in the blm protest. that would be ten times the number of people arrested. there are two standards of justice being put out there. >> also these insurrectionists were trying to overthrow the united states government. they were in the capitol building. there is video and photo evidence of them breaking windows, threatening the lives of lawmakers and staff and capitol police officers. that is trying to overthrow and take over the government. that is not a partisan issue.

everybody should be against that. this is the united states of america. that is also the piece aside from the people arrested and how many important arrested. very important data because obviously he was lying there. >> by the way, again, as we say all the time if somebody commits a crime, if hunter biden committed a crime, he should be arrested, he really should. if there were riots that went on on the edges of blm marches, those people should be arrested. 10,000 were. when i saw people in 2020 laying siege to a federal courthouse in portland, throwing fire crackers and other things, smoke bombs at that courthouse, breaking

windows, i said, why aren't they being arrested? it's very interesting. republicans think i guess the law doesn't apply to them? they can try to overthrow a presidential election. and if the doj does their job to protect americans, they start to talk about defunding the doj and actually issuing pardons for the rioters and the seditionists. that is sick. it is un-american. that ain't going to win elections in 2024. thank you all so much. i really appreciate it. still ahead hbo's "succession" comes to an end. brian cox talks about that and his latest film "mending the line." s latest film "mending the line."

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why? >> the doc said in order to return back to active duty i needed to pass a series of evaluations. she said that fishing could help. i saw you the other day with your pole. >> it's not a pole. it's a rod. you didn't call a rifle a gun, did you? >> no. >> it ain't easy. takes practice. tomorrow 10:00 a.m. 10:00 a.m., west fly shop, and do your recon. >> my recon? >> mm-hmm. more great literature has been written about fly fishing than any other sport. start there. >> hey, i was hoping i could get

a ride. >> you got legs. >> that was a clip from the new movie "mending the line" starring brian cox and sequel walls. the film centers around two veterans from two wars who connect through their shared tra ma and love of fishing. thank you so much for being with us. this is so timely for us. we were just talking about all the sacrifices that our men and women in uniform have made over the past 20 years. 125,000 suicides since 2001 for our vets. talk about this movie, where it takes the audience and why you made it? >> well, i thought it was a really -- a first time director, i think he's done other stuff, but this is his big thing, josh, and i just thought it was a really good script. i thought it was a very

affecting script in terms of dealing with that precise problem that you've just been talking about, these vets who have to live with it for much longer and the guy i play, of course, is a vietnam vet. so he's been carrying that for over 50 years, and then we've got this whole generation of new vets from the iraq conflict, which was, you know, a lot crazier than vietnam in many ways, though vietnam was pretty crazy. so i think that's what i really respect about the film, the fact that it deals with the need for recovery and how you do recover, and the guy i play, he's found it through fishing, through fly fishing, and it was a great lesson. it was a great lesson for me because i had to learn to fly fish, and i had a fantastic teacher, so it was -- and we filmed in the gallatin and yellowstone river, wonderful

locations in montana. >> at the san diego film festival it won the valor award, which is given to a military-themed film, which really talks about the impact of war on vets. what is your hope for -- do you hope that vets get out and see this, that their families get out and see this? who is your audience that you really want to reach in this incredible film? >> i think one wants to reach anyone who should know about the situation, should know about what these guys and also gals as well are going through. and i think any film that points in that direction is important, and i feel that about this film. evening that josh has done a great job, and he's telling a really good story, it's not just for vets to watch. it's for anyone to watch to see what really that's about and what that care is about. there's a big v.a. hospital in

montana, so there's a lot of vets that live in montana, and montana's been very good about the care for the vets. and i just want people to see it because i think it's a really rather touching movie. >> brian, tell us a little bit about how you prepared for this role. did you talk to veterans who had similar experiences? how did you read and get ready for something that obviously this person has put on quite a journey, physical and emotional? >> well, i remember the vietnam war. i mean, i'm old enough to. i didn't serve in it because i'm british, and we didn't fight in the vietnam war, but i remember the effect it was having on a lot of my american student, fellow american students at the time who were really suffering from the fact that they were probably going to go back and probably going to have to go to war, and they were very resistant. we didn't have any draft dodgers, but we had people who found it really tough. and of course the consequences because it was a long war and it was a needless war.

so in a way, those vietnam vets need to be honored constantly, i think, in terms of what they did and what they gave up, and still with them. the guy i play, he's still suffering after so many years, but he finds solace and fishing is one of the great things that you can do. fishing is wonderful. i fish, so in fact, i've just been fishing this weekend in turks and caicos and caught a bare kudo which i was rather proud of. so i actually really believe in fishing. i think it's a great -- i had my boys fish, it's a very, very, it centers the soul, fishing. centers the soul. >> yeah. i remember growing up post-vietnam movies like "the deer hunter" "coming home," and it really told the story in a way actually -- in a way that

even nonfiction couldn't tell. i'm a huge "peaky blinders" fan. that's not a gangster series. that's about guys trying to survive world war i. can you talk about how art can open the aperture on the human condition and the way even me reading a book about iraq or afghanistan can't? >> well, i think that's the great part of dramatic art. you see the people in action, and i think that's one of our jobs is, it's precisely our job. i mean hold the mirror up to nature, and if nature's pretty horrible, you've got to reflect it. that's the job. that's what you do, and i'm -- you know, i'm very -- i'm very honored to be able to do that, and particularly honored to do that in this picture. i've actually just done another film, ironically recently which i also played a vietnam vet. that comes out later this, probably beginning of next year.

and ironically his thing was pigeons. he was a pigeon racer. so you find these guys that get involved in something. it gives dedication to something that actually kind of frees the soul and cools the soul kind of. that's what i love about the whole -- fishing does that, and also pigeon racing does the same. >> yeah, you know, mending the line, it looks like an extraordinary movie. i can't wait to watch it. we're so grateful as we go into memorial day weekend to have you here talking about that and so grateful that you use your platform to do this, not only for vets, not only -- you know, for the 99% of americans that aren't touched by these wars. but i will say i would be dragged off this set if i didn't ask you about succession, so i'm going to ask you one question about that if that's okay. i always went around saying, you know, don't kill hamlet in the

first act, whenever i'm putting together a show or putting together a paper, don't kill hamlet in the first act, and i'll be damned if the creators of succession didn't do that this season. it's something that still baffles me, great actors. love the series. but you were sorely missed by everyone that has been watching it. how surprised were you when you found out that they were taking you off the show after three, four episodes? >> well, i mean, my view was we have our opinions and the writers, they're the final -- you know, they're the -- they have the final word, and quite rightly, they're supposed to have the final word. it's their creation as much as it's our creation. i felt with this show, it was called succession, so we have to see that come into play at some

point, so at some point or another i knew i was going to be -- you know, i knew i was going to be exiting. i didn't know when it was going to be. jesse was very good about it and he wanted it -- what one forgets is that this present series, it's one day. so the whole thing takes -- it's a ten-part series, but this actually takes part over ten days, so you have my death, and then you have my funeral, which is at the right distance, especially catholic funeral, which is a week, so i die in episode three and i'm buried in episode nine, and that's just -- that's one day. each episode is one day, so in a sense, he's -- the great thing about it, i've never watched episode three because i'm -- i'm not interested in watching my own death, i'm sure it will come soon enough. i have no desire to see that, but apparently it was very effective, and apparently it was incredibly effective with the

boys and sarah, you know, taking the news. i just felt that, you know, it would have been nice to be there a bit longer, but it was jesse's decision, and i respect that decision because jesse is an extraordinary writer, and i think it was a bold decision, and i think ultimately it probably worked. it's a bit -- i knew it was going to happen, but i thought, oh, can i not live until episode six. and they went we've got to do that, and when he explained it's a day thing, it made total sense. total sense. >> yeah. all right. well, listen, we thank you so much for being with us to talk about mending the line. it looks like an extraordinary film, an important film. we appreciate your time. all right, brian cox, of course, and we'll all be watching that as well as, of course,