might've thought of trump goes this poison gets out of the system and will go back to politics that's a little more similar to american history. this is now a movement that is far beyond trump. it's collected too connected to domestic terrorist, it may be connected to hostile governments who want this movement to come to power for all sorts of reasons. we have never been in this kind of danger in over two centuries. >> uterine brilliant. thank you for spending this time with. me we appreciated. peter penn is a long time consultant, and michael beschloss is a brilliant nbc news president of the story. and both of them are important commentators on this critical moment in american history. we thank you both for joining us. and i thank you for joining us tonight. you can catch me every saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern on velshi. velshi.

>> hi everyone. happy friday. it has been building all week long, you can feel it, the drip, drip, drip of disclosures about the strength and the specificity of special counsel jack smith evidence in the mar-a-lago documents investigation. and today the new york times is naming names. new york times today reveals the workers who removed boxes caring white house documents ahead of a meeting between don trump's legal team and doj at mar-a-lago. the times reports that the two employees were a maintenance worker and trump's valet and that they, quote, moved the boxes into the room before a search of a storage room that same day when evan corcoran, a lawyer for trump, who was in discussions with mr. brat of the fbi. he set up a meeting the next. day prosecutors have been trying to determine whether trump had documents moved around mar-a-lago or sought to conceal some of them after the subpoena. part of their interest is in

trying to determine whether documents removed before corker went through the boxes himself ahead of a meeting with justice department officials looking to retrieve them. this brand-new reporting, which we should mention has been independently verified by nbc news, raises a whole host of questions when viewed in terms of whether it helps to understand an essential question in the case, did on trump clearly and fragrantly commit obstruction of justice? as jack smith barrels towards a possible indictment of an ex president, we started this argue each day this week with breaking news that could lay out the building blocks that amount to an obstruction case. but it is just one branch of what we believe that investigation encompasses. the other, of course, is the actual mishandling of classified documents, including some of the nation's most closely guarded secrets. it is, by nature, more opaque to us as a viewing public. but as a matter of u.s. national security it is it of

paramount appertains. help us understand the states of this investigation at this moment, someone who perhaps more than anyone else clarify the gravity of a crisis put into motion by the ex president when we first learned of classified material last summer. that's of course former deputy director of national intelligence sued gordon, so thanks for being here. i have i tell you that we have never replayed so many words with wisdom as insight as we have replay your comments from that interview. so thank you for coming back. >> well thanks. thanks for having me. i wish it had gotten better. >> well one of the things that you carefully articulated seems to be a thread, again, and we know that most of what jack smith is doing is unknown to us, but in terms of what the public is facing it something you put your finger on immediately, and that is that donald trump

doesn't handle classified materials in the normal way. now whether or not that constitutes criminal activity, we'll find out soon enough at the end of jack smith's probe. but i wonder if you could just, in your own words, describe how what for how this syncs up with your experience of watching him deal with the nation's most sensitive secrets. >> well, thanks, i'll try. first, just let me remind, over the coming days and weeks and months there will be questions about whether it's classified, whether it really matters. we're just reminded, intelligence isn't about advantage and when that information is not properly handled or possibly disclosed, it gives away what we know, how we know it, the capabilities that we possess, who we partner with, and the gaps in our knowledge. and if you want just a how important that, is to look at

ukraine conflict, which is on one level and information war, and you have to say that we have an advantage in that when. the real stakes here. the second thing is, it isn't information handled by -- is not to be casually done. i'm not sure that former president trump understood the craft discipline significance and strategic implication with each piece of information that he got. and if you don't understand that, then i think you can convince yourself that what you are reading the headline of a newspaper is the same thing you read in an intelligence report. and that kind of starts a snowball effect of just not being careful or potentially giving away some of that which would provide the nation advantage. >> let me ask you, that is such an important context for

covering and processing all of this utterances. he's not denying the central question that has been handed to jack smith, which is one of his handling of classified material into the instruction of the investigation into it. he says things like, i can declassified by thinking it. he simply describing his version, which isn't accurate or true or precedent id, of declassification in a frame of avoiding criminal exposure. he has never once said what you just said. but i understand, these are secrets for men and women who risked their lives to obtain the information and share with us. does that concern you and the greater national security establishment? >> it all concerns me. again, you just can't parse intelligence into little pieces but you decide does it matter, does it not? because it tends to be additive in terms of what it reveals, even if it's not relevant

canister teaching value. and there are partners in play there are at risk when it gets revealed. but can i talk about the stifel classification piece a little bit? so i, also, in my last position, i had declassification authority. i had it for a set of things. in my tenure, in fact in my career, when i had the authority, i dislike laugh declassified exactly one piece of information, went through a whole bunch of paperwork to do so, and the decision was overseen to make sure that it was for an official purpose. so this idea that it is, regardless of whether you have the authority, its authority that you casually effect, that you effect without record, or that you effect for personal reason rather than an official reason, it's just nonsensical. it is nonsensical.

so to portray that this is something something that because you have your 30, you can just executed according to your preference, that is not, only not the not the way it works systemically, but if you think about what you're talking about, it would make no sense to do it that way. if you had a serious sense of what the material really meant. >> i think that's an open question, whether he did or not, which i think it's fair to say, but let me stay with this idea because what he has said in public interviews is that it was understood that anything he took with him to the residence was declassified or anything you pant in the boxes we declassified. let's give the lunatic the benefit of the doubt. i will do that for two seconds, but in then we'll go back to planet earth. if you do that, what would happen? what would the process be if everything you took back to the residence was declassified? what would happen to make that

true? >> i'm stopped at the process that would have to be in place in order for that to be true. and remember, we have many examples of former officials who have everton thierry inadvertently left their position having had the authority when they were in the position with some classified material depending on the circumstances just as jack smith is determining year the results were determined. bought again, the idea that you could just, by definition of possession, and authorities, say well it's all declassified because i said it was. one, i can't imagine that, and to it's not true to the tenets of what the authority really is. and again, you are not an

individual when you have this authority. it wasn't that suu gordon had the authority. no, the principal director of national intelligence had the authority. and i executed that authority according to the -- >> we are going to lead to gordon work out any of her wi-fi issues so that we can hang on to her every word as we have in the other instances when we've had a chance to talk to her. we also have her joining us, we're gonna bring your bag soon as we get back online, we're going to bring into our coverage neil kathy all and -- . neil, i didn't need to stumps gordon, in the was possible, but this is a conversation you and i started on wednesday. the notion that there was some even us to wear the inner circle of resign even though

there were some notion of that screwing world where anything that came back to the residence was declassified. it is impossible and untrue. it doesn't work that. way to declassify, she's explaining, declassifying one document, you will or the allies, you alert the agencies, you protect sources. it's simply one of those things where people like sue and people like yourself and people who cover national security after just pump the brakes and say no way, no how, that is not. the authority degrasse a fight works. >> that's exactly right. the technical legal term for donald trump's defense here is poppycock. >> [laughter] >> anyone who's handled national security documents no there's no there's no declassifying might authority. doesn't exist. so is exactly right. if you want to these classified documents, it is a long procedure for doing so, and for the most important reasons, when we declassified document, it means that material can be

subject to the freedom of information act to be turned over to the press. it could be handled in open settings. and this is really sensitive stuff. this is stuff that people give their lives for. alliances depend on keeping this material confidential. it's about sources, it's about methods, it's about all sorts of stuff that cannot spill out into the open, which is why for dozens of years america has had a classified information regime protocol that makes it so you can't do this kind of thing. and that is why i've always said and i have a good company of even people like bill barr, that this mar-a-lago stolen documents investigation is one that will likely lead to an indictment of donald trump because if the reports here are true of everything we are learning about how trump handled these documents at mar-a-lago, i don't think the justice department has a choice.

i think they have to prosecute. i mean what kind of message does that send to americans who risked their lives to obtain sensitive information if the country allows someone to knowingly take these documents, store them where they're accessible to others, and intentionally lie about it and instruct an investigation into it? what kind of messages sent to our allies? that's why i think the result of the special investigation is preordained. >> so gordon is back, and the technology in the internet gremlins have been addressed. so, when you talk everyone essence, and so even when you are suspended we were all breathlessly waiting for the buffering to stop. but you were in an important thing that i don't think anyone understands has never worked in around classified material that isn't just a human, a person, a personality. it is the office with a declassification power. can you explain that to us? >> yeah. as i was saying, i had the

declassification authority, but it wasn't so gordon who had it. it was the principal deputy director of national intelligence. same thing. it's not deadlocked don trump that had the authority as president the night in states. you have it for the duration that you have in the office and you executed according to the responsibilities in the office, not according to the preferences and individuals. this is just so central to how this system worked. >> when you see in the papers that special counsel jack smith is pursuing information about the post presidency, and specifically about liv golf and six nations, i believe it's, francois, turkey, china, saudi arabia, kuwait, and a man. it just has an echo to what you warned us about, that is both an ignorance of the craft that goes into every word on every

page of a pdb. but there is also a personal agenda that he's made no secret about pursuing. what do you make of what is public facing in line of an investigation looking at trump's ties and business relationships with those nations? >> so his intention, and those activities are not my area of expertise, but what i will say is as holders of classified information and responsibility for national security you understand that the people with whom you deal have their interests and their interests may go through the information or the access that you have. and so any holder of special information, and quite frankly the trust of the american people, has to be really mindful of the relationships that they are pursuing, not just for their intention, but for how that relationship could be used by adversaries and

competitors. so i think one of the things it's important to think about is, that it isn't just an act by the individual, it is how careful they are with the knowledge and access they possess in the face of others who will have interests that go through them. >> i want to, with sort of that established, i want to show you how he answers questions about the material that he had in his possession. this is from the cnn town hall. >> did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really. i would have the right. two by the way, they were declassified after -- not that i can think of. let me just tell you, i had the absolute right to do whatever i want with them. i have the right. >> we know that's not correct. i have the right to show them to anyone? not that i can think of. it seems like there is 1 million things wrong with that. >> so kind of goes through the

threat of what i said before, but when you get down to that last moment, it's like the obverse of need to know. for what purpose, what national purpose, not individual purpose, but what national purpose is that sharing occurring? again, there are times and places where you need to do it. and the decision major declassified something because the nation's interests are served by declassifying it and by showing it to someone so that you can reveal something you know to be true that will help us. but the threat in this is, it's a national interests that has to be served by this, so yes, i can imagine there would be times that certainly the president even a former president might be part of a process by which information was shared in the national interests, but it is not the individual's decision to do

that. >> in your experience, working for donald trump, was the national interest front of mind some of the time, most of the time, all of the time? >> listen, those of us who serve, swear to uphold and defend the constitution of united states and the president is a position that is prescribed by that constitution and in my experience, in my dealings with him, he was acting as the president of the united states. you and i both know that i have the first two years, not the second two years to see it. but i do think that it is a fair lands. and by the way, it's a fair lens that could be applied to any official who has this authority that is given to them, and really this is important, on behalf of the american people. those of us who were granted

special privilege of carrying the trust of the american people. and so in my experience, he was president of the united states and we were engaged and national security issues over which he presided. but that carries through not only for everyday innovators office and every day as an individual just as it does with me. >> when you recommended that president joe biden cut off his access to classified information, what was that rooted in, and is there any echo in what has been uncovered by jack smith's probe that reassures you that was correct? >> i think, i will probably make the same recommendation today. the point i was making is, and i think this is a really good thing to remember is, you don't have to make special rules in order to do the right thing, even with former president

trump. in this case the basis for access to information is need to know. what i wrote down and what i would say now is, i don't see a need to know that would warrant access to that information. now you could always decide. the president could always decide, someone in the future could decide that there is a need to know. but right now all you have to do is apply that standard that is the foundational standard that is part of the protection of classified information. do you have a need to know? if you can't imagine a need to know that you don't need access to classified information. >> one more thing you said to us that i think about all the time when i read about this part of the jacks mitt probe. it's the moving of the boxes. what seems like a very intense interest in the surveillance footage, which shows the moving of boxes. you told an anecdote about some

reporting and i asked you about it about trump carrying around documents including classified materials and boxes. and you said with the infrastructure of the office of the presidency, who traveled with a national security adviser, cia brief, or we could sort of protect that box, including tchotchkes and classified documents. when you read news accounts of boxes, including classified materials being moved back around matt mar-a-lago, does that ring to you as our pattern? does that give you angst? does it keep you up at night? what do you think of that? >> two things were. anyone is that a secure facility? there is in secure storage. it's not protected in the way that information purportedly of that level should be protected. so that is worrisome to me. the second is, everyone knows it's right there. it's on the news every day.

this information at mar-a-lago. our competitors are not rubs. they have the ability and there is a value to trying to understand what intelligence we have that gives them, takes our advantage and turns it into theirs. my worry is, it isn't being stored according to the standards, and more than that, it is so publicly there, if that is still true, but now you've kind of given a roadmap to those who would try and seek it, so there is all sorts of reasons that the rules exist and they don't include that kind of storage. >> my last question is, do the laws in america governing the handling of classified materials and the laws governing obstruction of justice, is an important day apply to everyone, to donald trump, if jack smith found finds that he broke those laws? >> in general, i do believe if

there's a law it ought to upright everyone it actually in seaworld the greater responsibility the more your responsible to obey the law. and it's a point in the future we want different rules, different policy, given statute, we should go through that process. but if it's on the books, if it applies to what one it applies to all, and again, responsibility tends to have its own burden. >> so gordon, we hang on to all of your words. it was great to get to talk to again today. thank you so much for starting us this friday. when we come back, we'll bring you -- on everything we've just heard. also coming up on the broadcast, a leading voice in the fight to protect democracy, stacey abrams joins us at the table. she is, of course, a champion for protecting the right to vote. we'll ask her about the new fight over censoring education in americas classrooms. plus, at the theme's internal political thriller are playing out in the current political landscape. later in the broadcast, republicans taking a page from

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♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ >> we've got neal katyal and luke fair weather. the greater obligation to a buy by the rule of the law. sue into world, to say, of course he should be held to the same standard the rest of us are held to. >> that's exactly right, and that's the way anyone who has handled these documents, republican or democrat, and passed administrations, that's generally how you approach it. if you don't approach that way, you face a criminal indictment.

and here, nikole, we've got a circumstance where not only was with great power comes great responsibility violated, but it's the opposite. hear the news reports today are saying that the trump issued red dress rip rustles to try to move the documents in advance of the government coming in and looking for them. i, mean address where herschel really stands out to me because we've all heard don trump's speeches in the past, and it's quite clear he doesn't bother to -- and it looks like the only thing he has were harassed in his life is how to commit obstruction. and i am very deeply worried about any sort of precedent that says if your government official, including the president, that you don't have to obey requests from authorities, that you can hide and move these documents around and the like. so there's two big issues here. one is the mishandling, the stealing of classified and

sensitive information, and the other is once that came to, like what did donald trump do about it? and it sure looks like he obstructed the investigation into it. >> luke, like a greszler vista geisha in into january 6th had as all of its narrators top close intimate trump insiders, cassidy hutchinson probably most notably in colourfully. the mueller probe, at least volume two, had top white house counsel tom mcgahn is his narrator, as close as you can beat anyone who occupies the office of the presidency. and it sounds like the documents probe has, among its narrators, based on this incredible new scoop by your colleagues, the people actually moving the boxes as the narrators of a trump directed obstruction. act. it is so remarkable that that is where every book into him takes us.

>> yeah, i mean, i think it's important to remember what's going on in the big picture and for about 20 months both the national archives and eventually the justice department have been trying to get back presidential records and classified documents from donald trump in mar-a-lago. they began to increasingly feel that they were being jerked around and there's so much evidence of this in all the court filings, months and months going by where they can't get the documents back in they're asking for the men asking for them and then they feel that they have been misled at some point. there's attestation that all the documents have been returned and then lo and behold when they search the premises it is more than 100 classified documents still there, and so what this latest recording shows is that their investigation is circling ever more tightly on the people close to donald trump who may give them more information

about whether anyone was messing around with these boxes, whether there was more evidence of obstruction of justice. and here they have a maintenance worker testifying, telling the prosecutors that he saw people moving the boxes right before the justice department arrived at the scene and he didn't know what was going on. he offered to help, but there were people moving the boxes, some of this is caught on the surveillance video i understand. but i think it's all getting to that point what the justice department is looking for here, and that is whether or not there is intent to obstruct their investigation in obstruct the american people getting these documents back into the hands of the national archives. >> and neal, with this new reporting helping us to understand how they know what they know about the moving of the boxes, how they have gone about corroborating what they clearly they saw on the tape or that existed on tape. how do you assess the strength of jack smith's probe.

>> at the top of the hour you said there are a bunch of basic building blocks that are falling into place in this mid probe, and that's exactly right. we already knew that donald trump had these stolen documents, more than 100 of them, in his golf club in florida. we also know that trump had these documents after his attorneys swore that he didn't. we also knew that these documents were very significant. some of our nation's most sensitive secrets. and we also knew that a federal judge, not that the trial judge with the d.c. circuit, our nation's second highest court, believed crime was committed here and that the crime was so serious that the attorney client privilege the donald trump had had to be pierced. we also knew that another donald trump attorney, who has been working for him on this investigation, had quit on the eve of major prosecutorial decisions.

we also knew that there were about 50 pages of notes that his attorney, corcoran, had turned over to the investigators, and these notes sound like they implicate on trump as well. and now we are learning today about the stress rehearsals. so the dress rehearsal's are still open questions. we'll talk about that in a moment. but taken together you have a tapestry of a very clear prosecution with those building blocks that you mentioned at the start of the show. to me there are three kind of three questions about the latest report of the documents being moved in the box is being moved. one, what was actually in the boxes? to, did donald trump know what was in the boxes? and three, did he instruct his staff to move them? >> look, real quick, after the search we know what was in the boxes. they found dozens of classified documents. so i was just holding my white house m&ms that i stole as the

excuse is not going to hold water. >> right. and as you pointed out many times, nicolle, the former attorney general bill barr will always bring up this case that he thinks that vince obstruction of justice here is quite clear, and that is no liberal democrat saying that. so this reporting from my colleagues, allen and maggie today, i think shows that how trump was intensely focused still on the obstruction of justice case, and they're getting more and more witnesses testifying about it. >> so neal i only have one second. you have to close the loop on your dress rehearsal comment or i'll hear about it on twitter. >> the boxes, we don't know what was in the very boxes that would be moved. we know classified documents were found. but the question is, are those classified documents and other

sensitive documents the same documents they were in the boxes, or what is m&ms and the like? leave it to trump to say that it's m&ms. >> [laughter] and for the record trump didn't say that. i'm just coming up with imaginary excuses. no nuclear secrets, just stolen m&ms. , which is what most people take from it when they leave the white house. neal katyal and look fair weather, thank you so much. coming up for us, stacey abrams is here. like at the table here. i get to talk to her about today's political headlines and climate wheels to get to talk about her new novel, which he says was written as fiction but didn't expect the reality of our times to quickly catch up with what she has written about. she'll join us to talk about all of it, next. it, next. that's it.

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♪ ♪ ♪ the l'or barista coffee and espresso system. a masterpiece in taste feeling when i see things like this happening is just frustration, that young people are consistently speaking up, asking adult empowered to focus on the real issues. focus on the real problems. and, if these people actually cared about protecting children they would focus on real problems facing children today. and amanda's palm is so beautiful because it asks us to think about our place in this country and how we can make it a more perfect union for everyone. what a fantastic lesson to teach our kids to think about who they are as citizens and

people. >> that was our good friend -- on this program, speaking about how important and what a great lesson amanda's inaugural poem is and would be for him in the classroom if you were still teaching. as we have discussed, her palm entitled the hill we climb was removed from an elementary school in florida after one parent complained that it contained, quote, hate messages. the exclusion of her poem is just the latest in a series of crackdowns across our country as red states continue to ban books, when it access at what children can read. gorman's publisher looks to take legal action to challenge book bans like these, one of our next guests today is no stranger to how to hold the right wing to account in response to gorman's statements, advocate stacey abrams writing in a tweet this, quote, this is a betrayal of the very values we should be imparting to our

youngest americans. how to be curious, to inquire, and to reach beyond our boundaries. joining us at the table is space stacey abrams. whose democratic nominee for governor in the state of georgia last, year she is an author, she's out with her second novel titled rogue justice, outfitting, a political thriller about the supreme court. it is fiction, but hang, on also joining us is host of msnbc's ballistic nation, our friend the reverend al sharpton is here. it's so nice to have you here, your tweet caught our attention on wednesday and i said in the break that, this attack by one parent on amanda's home is the opportunity to play it over and over again. every time i got rid of the story. but, my son is an elementary school and he is studying history. it's still basic, but one of the most important things that kids learn is when something was created. the idea that she delivered that address two weeks after an

insurrection is so essential. every child should have access to that message. >> not only should every child have access to the message, they deserve the context that it provides. i was in elementary school when the challenger accident happened. i can imagine what it would have meant to have someone not exactly my age, but in my age range, articulate the pain and grief i was feeling. that is what books, poetry, and access provides. we have to remember that school libraries are often, for many children, their only access to that information. so it is deeply disturbing to me that we watch for these families and these groups attack a place that should be a safe space for children. a safe space to learn, the question, and a safe space to really process what can be difficult and, not only difficult to feel, but difficult articulate. >> to take a poet and a poem

that should be held up across partisan lines and demonize the piece itself, and the creator of it, i mean i understand from reporting this week that it was one parent that complaint but i've not seen one republican defend amend on her palm. >> what strikes me as so devastating is that it is amanda and her poem, but she is the tip of a much larger iceberg. we know that there have been indiscriminate attacks on lgbt q writers, on non right writers, and that demand is not immune to this type of attack, but more importantly that a single person can deny a single slew of children. this moment of grace is not just ridiculous, it should be shameful. i wish that we could get beyond our polarization and return to what we like to turn our citizenship. citizenship says that you do it is best for children, regardless of who have

deliberating that opportunity. >> i have to spend too much time for it to be healthy, but i try to understand where the wrought is on the right and how it happened. but the story does not seem like it's the most important story, but we could argue that it should be. because this is a piece of american history, recent american history, that is given 14 days after an insurrection at the inauguration, a peaceful transfer of power. never before in modern history had that been in question. i've not been able to find one national republican saying not only should the stay on the shelves, but what happens when one of the two parties is willing to let this be the rule of the minority, and the tyrants? >> what happens is that we lose a sense of what we are really living through and evolving from and going through. you cannot deal with fruits

without dealing with the routes that came from. i think that by this poem, interpreting for america, not young folks or old folks or black folks, but for america, the inauguration, she read this poem at the inauguration at the president of the united states. she's just not talking about a poet at a workshop that i might have. you're talking about an inaugural poem that you are going to remove, which is american history. that is the extent that they will go through to cast a shadow on what they consider -- >> why? >> because if they can build in the minds of kids a certain, singular kind of perception then they can guide you the way they want to guide you. so if we are told that women are treated differently than man, if we are told that blacks and latinos and others are treated differently, if you start, you think that they are not equipped, they cannot rise

to the occasion. if you have the context, then you understand what you're looking at i think as stacy said she grew up looking at this. when i grew, up i looked at, i was 12 or 13 years younger than jesse jackson. i looked up to them. if they were not there, i would've looked up to whoever they put their. so you emulate and imitate what you see. and, if they can remove what you see, they can remove who you can be. >>, nicole if i can add, we were earlier chatting just a bit, but we lauded republicans for not committing treason. >> heroism is taking an action despite the blow back. if defending a young woman with the audacity to speak truth and to say that quiet is not, vista paraphrase the line that offended this parent, if we cannot come together to defend a young woman who, at the peak of her youth, spoke for so many

millions, then why would we dare believe that they will defend the rest of us in another time of trouble. >> she also said that we are not broken, we are unfinished. i've heard republicans say worst things about the state of our country. i did take a short break, but when we come back we're gonna have so much more. under doctor stacey abrams about her new novel, rogue justice, as timely as can be. timely as can be i'm world champion skier lindsey vonn, and ever since i retired,

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trust in the integrity of the u.s. supreme court is in rapid klein, it just so happens to be a recurring theme in our guest to stacey abrams new, novel rug justice, the second novel in her series which follows a supreme court clerk involved in another washington city conspiracy. this time involving our nations courts. we are back with this d.c. and the reverend. i love all of the little things that are so perfect and accurate that only one in the arena can get right when they write about the arena, so i just want to congratulate you on writing this exquisitely crafted novel. but, i want you to tell me about your character in this book. >> avery king is a supreme court clerk who in the first novel sort of stumbled into a conspiracy, well, she was yanked into it by a supreme court justice who fell into a coma. that is the while justice

sleeps. it was really a story of what do you do when you have responsibility, but no authority. and what she did lead to a fairly dramatic and. so, this next book, is really about how do you face the consequences. when you, when it does not necessarily mean that bad is done. you have descendants the sort of cinematic tendency to think that this is finished and we can move on to the next, and she gets pulled back in and this time she's dressing the possibility of blackmail justice at her secret court. >> you're so brilliant right, you're right where the political cases shifted. so much focus on the supreme court, but i want to ask you about that bigger, what you feel in your gut is what you just described, and it is almost -- the right outcome, the danger that has a past. how much of your writing process is sort of your feelings and your processing of the political moment, and how much of it is just escaping into the characters? >> it's both, as someone who's

been fighting for democracy and voting rights, we celebrated the peaceful transition of power in 2020, as you pointed, over that does not mean that the threat of authoritarian and autocratic behavior in the united states is abated, in fact it has picked up. it is just become more surgical and obtuse and obscure to many. so, we know that the danger is still up there, it's just hard to get people to pay attention. it's part of the call of avery's to have an avatar who grapples with what it means do the thing that you say you're going to do, and yet find the ear work is not done. >> i think this idea so important. i think there is a piece for culture to do for books and film to do in this moment for democracy, that it is not doing. i do think that is the case? >> i think that we have, it has become so performative that we do not deal with real in-depth themes and in-depth positions that people would deal with.

i think that what is refreshing about someone who is so engaged in changing what we had as the body politic, as stacey abrams was, there is no question that you talk about the change in the new south you would have to put a picture there. so she is somebody that is engaged and has used her talent. if you read this novel, of her writing, she could've made it as a novelist all by herself, and her writing, coming from her, it is like churchillian. churchill could write and run. other than she is divided, i have one daughter who's novelist fan. dominique has a novel, if you're going to run again? nobody would be an office in georgia if it wasn't for stacey abrams. she's not finished with public life, as she enjoys her life as

a novelist. this is just a bridge to the next mountain, i hope for her. >> i think that as well put. >> is that yes? >> i'm certainly not dame of public life, although i think it's important to use all the tools in your tool box and explore questions and conversations that we do not normally get to have. part of what i love doing with the novels i write with children's books, with a nonfiction, is to explore themes and conversations that we often don't think that we have time for. but if you get a w sitting on the beach and you happen to learn about cyber theory, then you feel better about it. >> i think we should do a better job lifting up the arts, especially when the deal of the themes that we care about. and you probably read people that would never turn on the news because it's too much. there are legitimate concerns about getting upset watching the news, about a read this book and it is smart and important. i have to ask about the supreme court though. how much of what this crisis, and all the people of employing on the question of trust in the

supreme court. how much of having that as the backdrop. this existential crisis with trust in the court. hours getting to talk about that, depending on your perspective, play into having a book set in that place? >> it's important because we take for granted that we have controls on our president, we have controls, or at least the theory of control on the presidency in congress. but we leave the judiciary to manage itself, -- >> it's crazy when you put it like that. >> and there are the only ones with lifetime appointments. you can vote a president out, you can vote a congressional member out. they are there and there is nothing in the constitution that removes them except for high crimes, misdemeanor, or death. a misdemeanor is a big am, not jaywalking. and so i think what is so important for me, and i use the court to get it in, there is that we do not know if they're being blackmailed. we do not know what is being, down and that's not to suggest what is happening in, rely far-right about possibility, not probability.

but what it does mean is that we have to also put in place controls to make sure that the possibilities do not become realities. we need ethics laws that are enforceable and that are clear and cognizable. it is not to harm. >> it's amazing, it's really good and it's really important. thank you so much for being here. and the rev, thank you, it's nice to have you at the table. the new book robe justices out right now. out right now. when it comes to your hair, ingredients matter. that's why herbal essences is packed with naturally derived plant ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you don't. our sulfate-free collections smell incredible... ♪

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melbourne. we start with special counsel jack smith closing in on former president donald trump. the new york times