the 27th. i'm alex velshi, the full faith and credit of the united states is in jeopardy this hour. president biden says he's hopeful and optimistic about ongoing debt ceiling negotiations. the speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy, i can biden's hopeful tone -- that progress has been made this week, and that he wants to keep that momentum going. patrick mchenry the republican congressman from north carolina, who's been a key figure in these talks also said, yesterday, quote, the deal is within reach, but there are certain -- sticking points remain. when asked the republicans will drop the demand for work requirements for social safety net programs like food assistance, republican congressman garrett graves, also one of the lead negotiators, said, quote, hell no. janet yellen announced yesterday that the so-called ex-date, the predicted deadline to raise the excess a debt ceiling -- is june the 5th.

the time is ticking for congress to take action, because it's congress that has an exit constitutional responsibility here. they swore an oath to -- and the 14th amendment of that constitution says, the validity of the public debt of the united states shall not be question, which presumably means, you need to pay the debt. june 5th is only nine days from now. the house of representatives has adjourned for the long memorial day weekend. republican leadership said, they will provide 24 hours notice before scheduling voting days, and addressing the potential default. while some republicans might just be hoping to extract a greater cuts to the social safety net in exchange for not crushing the american economy, with others, the motivation is less clear. take, for example, the chaos caucus, a group of the most disruptive members of the republican caucus right now. the chaos caucus, many of whom are members of the freedom caucus, succeeded and complicating and stalling kevin mccarthy's election to the speakership back in january, forcing him into a series of 15

ballots before he finally won. earlier this week, most of them also signed on to a letter addressed to the speaker, telling him to, quote, hold the line, and quote, on the debt ceiling. meanwhile, republican senator mike lee of utah tweeted on a thursday morning that he will, quote, use every procedural tool at my disposal to impede a debt ceiling deal that doesn't contain substantial spending and budgetary reforms, and a quote. now, avoiding default is not something we should be debating, it should be automatic, it should be like breathing, because what some republicans are doing right now is jeopardizing the full faith and credit of the united states. the consequences of a potential default would be dire. interest rates would rise, the united states treasury would no longer be risk free. everyone in the world by's u.s. treasury wants for one reason and one reason only. the u.s. treasury has always paid them back, even people who

hate our democracy, hate our politics, hate our leaders, hate our way of life, they all by u.s. treasury bonds because they know we will pay, because we have always paid, always. simply not the right of any elective politician that decided to break the full faith and credit of the united states. the current reporting is hopeful about this, but this is the era of the chaos caucus. you can never really be sure how it ends until it ends. some random politician could try to torch the whole thing, for their 15 minutes of fame regulation from donald trump, who told republicans this month that they're, quote, going to have to do default. in the end, it's a chaos caucus does ultimately lose, that will be the only thing worth celebrating in this whole self defeating debacle. i'm joined now by nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan noble, and white house correspondent, -- good morning to both of you. i know it's been late nights and early days for both of you, and it's not going to end anytime soon. monika, last night, joe biden

implied, something he doesn't do, he manages his expectations, well he said before he got -- he expected or hoped there might be a deal i'm midnight last night. that clearly didn't happen. >> no, there's no indication that any kind of a deal has been reached, but the president is the one who is always forced to say, he's the eternal optimist in all of this. the entire process, while many people are speaking more to the realities of the situation, the president is always looking to what he hopes will be the endgame here, which he says, of course, is avoiding the fault and the severe economic consequences that would come with it, while securing a deal that he feels just preserves some of the priorities that he campaigned on, and that he's written into legislation that's already passed in his first couple of years in office. he did tell reporters last night that he's feeling like both sides were getting closer and closer, but what he didn't really say there, and what's critical, is that these thorny areas that still remain are some of the trickiest. things like work requirements, that you are talking about, for that federal public assistance.

the president has said that there are certain ones in terms of strictness, that he would simply not accept if it came to affecting someone's health care, for instance. but leaving the door open, possibly, to some other ones. republicans are still pushing, though, for those stricter work requirements. where does that issue and it falling? that's one that they're still totally talking about as a live issue. there are plenty of other things including the length of the deal. they were hoping the white house and the president and democrats that this would be for a two-year extension to lift the that ceiling. republicans have been pushing for if something far shorter than that, with some spending cuts and caps in place. these are areas of deep division that are just fundamental differences between the two forties. these aren't things that are going to get resolved overnight, but that's what people are hoping for. but the president thinking i could get done at some point this weekend, that. sometimes officials concede that slight extra breezing rude that secretary yellen gave them by saying that the day the u.s. can no longer pay its bills

will be now june 5th, so a week from monday, gives them a little more time. as rhino so well, there still a ton that needs to be done legislatively to make this a reality. >> right, that's the point, ryan. this isn't the we make a deal on the night of june 4th and it happens on june 5th. things have to happen to allow janet yellen and the treasury to make the payments that they have to wake make the week of june 5th. i hate that everyone thinks that june 5th gives anyone any breathing room. this is an urgent matter. how is it feeling on capitol hill? >> well, we just caught up with patrick mchenry, who you know is one of the lead negotiators from the republicans. he says that they're here until 2:30 in the morning, he said that they do believe that they're making progress, but this is the important part of this conversation, ali, is that they can agree on 99 things, but it could be that 100th issue that they can't come to an agreement on that can blow the whole thing up. listen to how mchenry explain it to us this morning. >> we've had a long list for a

long time, but i didn't anticipate we'd have a very short list for a very long time. >> are you still expecting a deal today? >> it's hours or days. i don't know when. >> you hear, i'm not very optimistic that the deal will be hot today, but in terms of the legislative calendar, ali, republicans have been very clear that they're going to give any piece of legislation, which still has to be written, mind you, 72 hours to be reviewed by their caucus. after that, there will be the haggling and the whipping of votes in the house, than it has to go to the senate, which will require 60 votes in order to pass. once it goes over to the senate, it can't be messed with at all. at the amended in any way shape or form, than it would have to go to the house again, making the deal between president biden and speaker mccarthy is just the first hurdle that needs to be crossed to get this done before that june 5th deadline. there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.

>> that sounds like 3 to 4 days after a deal is agreed upon before a bill is signed by the president, then the treasury can make payments. so june 5th is nine days away, but it actually might just be four days away, based on the way that mass is going to work. thank you both so, you will be staying very, very close to you through the course of the day. we appreciate it. nbc's ryan nobles and monica alba. right now is democratic congressman -- of new jersey. he's a co-chair as a province of office, he's a member of the house financial services committee. congressman, good to see you again, as always. thank you for being with us. i'm going to ask my producers to put up a picture of the problem solvers caucus. who you all are, and then the republicans in the problem solvers caucus. about 30 of them, i think, and some of them are people who are elected as republicans in districts that joe biden won. they're probably not looking for some other colleagues to entirely towards the u.s. economy over the stat ceiling debate. >> i think that's very fair to

say. i think they understand it, and frankly, i think most republicans and democrats in the congress right now understand what's on the line here. just how severe this would be if we default as a country, and don't pay our bills. the impact it would have on everything from social security to veterans in the va, to help benefits and jobs overall. what it would put aside -- 401(k) s in the market overnight. so, everyone knows just how much is on the line here. you've got some people, of course, who are on the extreme right, who frankly just don't care. there want to roll it dice, but that's not where most people are, which gives you a sense of how people want to get a deal done. >> tell me some things as if we're not on tv right now, stuff you would have to kill me if you told me. you are the people. there are five votes separating one side of a deal from another, right? whether it's this discharge petition that all democrats have signed on to, or the number of votes that kevin

mccarthy needs to get a debt ceiling done. you have more than that in your problem solvers caucus, so it would strike me, things must be going on in this province solvers caucus that's happening below the surface. >> listen, there's a lot of conversations going on, including her through this morning and late last night. people are looking, as patrick mchenry said, it's a short list, but there still issues around that short list. people are looking for solutions -- you got a lot of folks from both sides talking to each other, which i think is good, it doesn't mean we're there yet. the way this is going to get done is more from the middle, from the left and the right. you're probably going to lose people on the far left and far right. recognition has to be by partisan to get done and the house of representatives, plus you get to keep -- in the senate. these isn't one of the things where one party will carry the day, it'll take both. so that's tough, right? everything, every time you propose one thing, you lose

people on either side. that's what makes this ever extra complicated. >> in my simple opinion, as an unelected person, the thing that made this complicated is that this has been a generally speaking, automatic process. there are three times in our history when we've come close. once on the opponent administration within 72 hours of the deadline, but that you shouldn't be happening. i try to understand why we don't accept the fact that we have a budgeting process and an appropriations process, which is where the discussion on spending should come in. then we have a debt ceiling approval, which is automatic and should not be the space for this debate. i am think it's valid for republicans to think we spent too much or don't bring enough and. but that's not the discussion, this isn't the venue for it. but th>> this is not the place,e can -- to countries in the world that do it this way. this is purely about -- we decide every fall as part of the budget and appropriations

project -- for the country, right? this shouldn't even be a discussion, and frankly, it shouldn't happen now. the problem solvers caucus, we proposed to raise the debt ceiling or suspended, put it aside, and then you can have a conversation about long term that, and we should talk about that kind of fiscal policy in our country. do it as a pipe partisan commission, do it as part of the appropriations process, but the idea that you're holding things hostage, you're literally holding the country in default, holding the united states hostage, and putting in policy issues that, frankly, don't do anything for debt and that visit. they won't actually help solve any of those problems, but there's policy areas that the other side wants to try to get in here because they think they're holding the country hostage and the president, putting him in a tough position. they're trying to leverage as much as possible. this is not the way that you should be governing. other countries like china, the government of china, look at this and say, this is phenomenal. it's the united states in disarray, right? that's the only ones who are winning here, and we're putting everything at risk for no reason.

>> you brought up china, and this is an important point that i was making in the introduction, that everybody buys u.s. treasury. u.s. treasuries pay less interest, they have a smaller yield, as they say, than anything else in the world, because they are absolutely the safest investment in the world. all other investments are in gauged against a u.s. treasury that has no risk. what's the danger of humpty-dumpty falling off the wall here or the china vause raking? once you've broken this, year broken it forever. >> i mean, i'm most worried about china running around other countries, the government of china, and saying, the united states doesn't pay its bills, to wiser treasuries. go somewhere else for that. that's what i really, frankly, we should all be concerned about, because they want to be the pain currency of the world. that's their goal, is to knock us off and not be -- the dollar being the supreme currency in the world, which would affect our standing in the world, affects us with our allies. that would be a huge disaster,

and by not paying our bills on time and even threatening to not pay our bills, we put our reputation at risk. the full faith and credit of the united states of america, which is why we should never be here in the first place, and trump, as you pointed out, raise the debt ceiling three times clean. he added eight trillion dollars to the debt under the administration. people shouldn't forget this. he said we shouldn't play politics with the debt ceiling, but here he goes, he's actually encouraging people to default on his side, which is obviously really helping those who are on the extreme right mess of the negotiations. president trump is just encouraging them to default, which is crazy if you love our country, to do that. >> come to see you, as always, thank you for taking time for us this morning. the democratic representative -- >> thank you. have a good weekend. >> he's a co-chair of the problem solvers caucus. coming up, i'm joined by congressman -- congressman adam smith of washington state to talk about the state of negotiations, including the cuts that are being demanded by republicans,

and the lines that they won't cross. plus, all talk to state senator, mia mcleod, one shows that the so called sister senators, a bipartisan group who banded together to try to stop educating abortion ban in their state. the ban passed, but the battle is not over yet. and i'll call to order this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club. on the agenda, one of the most important graphic novels of all-time. mouse, the legendary art speaker man joins me, coming up on velshi. on velshi. that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow. do you struggle with occasional nerve aches in your hands or feet? try nervive nerve relief from the world's number one nerve care company. nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. subway's still upping their game. show us how stephen.

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ukraine, where russia -- from the front lines, during the latest barrage, at least two people were killed and 32 more wounded following a missile strike on a medical facility in dnipro. ukraine says it shot down ten missiles and 25 drones in the attack, which targeted dnipro. the capital kyiv, and other

cities. this comes as a british ministry of defence reports that the russian area line walker grew's mission -- started withdrawing from the ruined eastern city of bakhmut. the head of wagner, prigozhin, says that his forces will be out of bakhmut by the start of june, turning the ruins over to the russian army. although there are still some isolated reports of fighting. joining me now from kyiv, ukraine is my friend, nbc news correspondent, molly hunter. molly, good afternoon to noon to you in ukraine. this -- ukrainian counter offensive. earlier today, you spoke with president zelenskyy's seniors advisors about that. >> hey, ali, great to be with you. that's right. we spoke with one of his senior advisers, makayla togiak, who actually, earlier this week, put out a tweet. we've been watching for this counteroffensive. when is it going to start? we've been asking ukrainian officials. he put out a tweet earlier this week this at there's going to be no set date. there won't be a ribbon cutting ceremony. we won't tell you when it's starting.

that all makes sense, but the conditions that we have been watching for, more training, more troops near the front line, more western ammo, all of these things have started happening. the ukrainian military are saying they're hitting more rare russian positions. we know there is more advanced repertory. it seems like a lot of the conditions for this counteroffensive are lining up. one of the other ones, whether. drier ground. we were in the -- region earlier this week, it was still raining, but i do just want to share a little bit of a -- i'll readout couple of a sound bites. he talked about the counter offensive. it's not a matter of one day, we see intensifying attacks on russia, we are preparing the battlefield for this new phase of war. he talks about being in this preparation phase. he says, we're not in the attack phase of the counter offensive, but we're certainly in this mode. ali, he also spoke about a real change in rhetoric and behavior from western allies. he says the most important thing is that our allies are no longer afraid of words like escalation. they understand it is now about leveling the playing field.

he talks about how western allies, of course we saw this at the g7, are now providing the kind of military aid that's not just going to keep ukraine in the, what is going to help them, possibly, deal a finishing blow. he thinks he's not putting too much pressure on this counter offensive, but he really thinks this is the momentum, the beginning of the end. the other comments that is really making headlines here, ali, today, is from alexei danilov, he's a secretary for the national security and defense council. really part of zelenskyy's war room, very, very prominent in these big military decisions. he told the bbc in a rare interview that the counter offensive could be tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, or in a week. ali. >> molly, thank you as always, my friend. molly hunter in kyiv, ukraine. coming up, abortion access and one key southern state is heading headed -- for months a bipartisan group of five women, the only woman in the south carolina state senate, have been fighting aged coney and new abortion ban. right after the break, i'll

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herbal essences turning to south carolina, where a state judge on friday blocked the states new near total ban on abortion just one day after the governor, henry mcmaster, signed into law. the injunction now remains in effect until the state supreme court can review the measure, which would ban most abortions after cardiac activity was detected in the fetus, usually after six weeks of pregnancy, when many people don't even realize they are pregnant. the legislation was clear to the state senate on tuesday, after filibustered led by the chambers only five women, including three republicans, failed to block him. for now, abortion remains legal in south carolina through 22 weeks. now, that status has made the state a regional haven for women in the cell, seeking an abortion. after much of the cells move

towards a strict abortion bans, following the u.s. supreme court's decision to overturn roe v. wade last summer, ending the constitutional right to an abortion in this country. under the south carolina ban, any doctor found in violation could face felony charges, carrying up to two years in prison, and a 10,000 dollar fine. the latest attempt by the south carolina republicans who passed a ban comes after a state court struck down a similar six-week ban in january. in a 32 ruling, the high court ruled that the ban violates the state constitution. that january decision whiton by the courts only female justice, who has since retired after reaching the mandatory retirement age. and a controversial move, republicans voted overwhelmingly to replace the retired justice with a man who has the support of the ultra conservative freedom caucus, making south carolina the only state in the country with an all-male high court. republicans were criticized for passing over two female nominees who had greater

experience than the man that they chose. my next guest is state senator, mia mcleod, an independent who is partly all feel filibuster that try to block the new abortion ban. they call themselves the sister senators, and any serious -- on the chamber floor, they noted that the six-week ban does not give women enough time to make a decision. joining me with more is the state senator mia mcleod, one of the chambers only five women who have been fighting hard to defeat every single attempt by state republican lawmakers to pass a near total abortion ban in south carolina. senator, thank you for being with us, good morning to you. >> thanks for having me, ali. >> let me first try and understand what's going on. your state supreme court felt that the six-week ban was unconstitutional. that same supreme court, now, has a different constitution and it feels like it was politically motivated change. what -- state supreme court anymore. what are you expecting to happen? >> we're expecting another

round. we're going to the supreme court, obviously, and the deck is stacked. that was intentional, and i voted against the man who replace justice kaye hern for that very reason. we had to qualify, very capable women who are also vying for the supreme court seats, and is my understanding that they were told by leadership, by republican leadership, to withdraw. that set the stage for an all-male supreme court, and we'll just have to see how it goes. >> let's talk about what's happened. you and the sisterhood. people from different political parties who have gathered together, you have different views about abortion. i spoken to honor your colleague, sandy senn, who said she'd rather women don't have abortions, but she also doesn't believe that a woman and her daughter should be criminalized for this and that men should be

making these decisions for women. you have come together in an interesting coalition, you've made the speeches on the floor of the legislature, and yet, it has not moved either of your republican colleagues. >> right, so, you know, i understand completely your conversation with senator san, and yes, none of us are pro abortion. i think i speak for all of us when i say we're all anti hypocrisy, and that's what we're seeing every day on the senate floor. as it relates to this issue and for me, other issues. specifically for this issue. we know that women, most women and girls, don't even know that they're pregnant by six weeks. to criminalize but doctors and health care practitioners in a state where we have also consistently refused to expand medicaid, expand access to

quality, affordable health care. we have a shortage of doctors and nurses and other health care practitioners. people in our rural communities, especially people of color, continue to suffer and not have access to the medical services and medical service providers that they need. you know, we know it's not really about abortion, it's about them pandering to their base, and for them, hopefully, getting reelected. so, we are in this fight for the long haul. i mean, we lost the last round, but i'm super proud of the fact that my sister senators and i were able to defeat a total ban. this is just short of a total ban, and we continue to fight. we live to fight another day. so, we are going to the supreme court, and i hope that the supreme court, although it is all male, although that was ten channel, i do hope and that

they will abide by the constitution and uphold the constitution as they are sworn to do, and we'll just have to see what happens when it gets there. >> all of your sinister senators speeches were remarkable. they had different appeals and different reasons. yours was very personal, and you told your colleagues that it was unfortunate that women must reveal intimate experiences to enlighten and engagement. in fact, last month, you said just as a rape is about power and control, so is this total ban. those who continue to push legislation like this are ripping us again with their indifference, violating us with their righteous indignation, taunting us again with their insatiable need to play god. this is not light language from you. this is actually very relevant to your life experience. >> it is, it is, indeed. i've been open about the fact, public, about the fact that i am a sexual assault survivor. and to just to think that south

carolina's women and girls will have to go through the trauma, the horror of that experience yet again, this bill would require them to go to the sheriff in south carolina, we have one woman sheriff in all of the 46 counties. the rest are men, so we have 45 male sheriffs, which means 45 male dominated law enforcement agencies that these women and girls will have to go to. and share and relive the horror of that experience and try to prove to the sheriff that they were, in fact, violated in that way. it's just unconscionable. in tha way. at this point, there are no words to describe the level of the anger and frustration and that i think all of us feel. all of us who are women, all of us are moms, as well. all of us have given birth, and

our male colleagues have not and will not. and so, you know, it is unthinkable that they would not listen to us about our personal experiences. all of us had different, unique, but very personal experiences. when they come to the what -- women need to do, and they use women and girls and they know, or that they represent as examples, all of these women's have something in common, and that is a choice. they had a choice. that's all we're asking for, is a choice. and so, you know, as i said, we won't stop fighting this. this is something that is deeply personal for me, and it's personal for my sister senators. we are in this fight together, and we are in it to win it for the women. >> you're not just influencing women and girls around this country, you're inspiring a lot of people, including me, who

know less about doesn't have not had your personal experience. thank you for what you and the sister senators are doing, senator mcleod of south carolina. >> thank you. >> just days to go before devastating default, coming up, i'll talk to a member of the budget committee who -- ranking member of the armed services committee, adam smith. we want to wish a very happy birthday to henry kissinger, who turns 100 today. that means he is five years younger than the debt limit. the debt limit. towns, and on main streets across the us, you'll find pnc bank. helping businesses both large and small, communities and the people who live and work there grow and thrive. we're proud to call these places home too. they're where we put down roots, and where together, we work to help move everyone's financial goals forward. pnc bank.

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velshi banned book club's almost here with an author who's been on our wish list for since we establish the club well over a year ago. in the next hour, i will pcp with -- pulitzer prize-winning graphic novel maus. it's written using two distinct narrative. maus depicts the true horrors that spiegelman's perris face as young jewish people in world war ii, through their eventual liberation from naughty concentration camps years later. published in the early 1990s, maus it's nothing short of a cultural and historical touchstone, making its removal from an eighth grade reading curriculum in tennessee just last year even more shocking. in preparation for this confirmation with spiegelman on such a crucial book, we asked you, member of the velshi banned book club, how and when you first learned about the holocaust. many people named books about --

louis lowry, night by appellate resell, and the diary of a young girl by and frank, while other people shared more personal anecdotes, like judy as who wrote, in part, quote, i always knew about the holocaust since my four grandparents were survivors. but never any details. they never talked about it, ever. you won't want to miss this conversation with art spiegelman, coming up on velshi. i. eme meats. is it hot in here or is it just me? it's definitely not you. no, it's me. try the subway series menu. their tastiest refresh yet. (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

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just been speaking on capitol hill. i want to play a bit of what he said. >> i feel closer to an agreement now than i did a long time before, because i see progress. listen, this is not easy in any shape or form. that doesn't back us away from it. one thing, we've always learned about me, i don't give up, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter how many times it takes. want to make sure you get an agreement with the american public. >> ryan nobles is there, you can see him in the shot. ryan, it is definitely positive talk, as you and i were discussing at the top of the hour. last night, joe biden had sounded optimistic about this. this is mccarthy sounding optimistic, and he did say in that conversation that's a thing he thinks they're getting closer to is not everything he wanted. this is a big mystery. does kevin mccarthy actually gets to negotiate in good faith, or does he have 15 or so chaos caucus people stopping him for making a deal? what's your sense of what just

happened? >> you are so right, ali, the thing i was most shocked by this conversation we just had with the house speaker was the parameters that he was talking about, a deal coming together and then how that deal gets through the congress. he was specifically asked if it's a deal he thought he'd get all of his republican members and he said that he wasn't anticipating that, that was too high of a bar. that indicates that on some level, he is prepared to lose at least a number of republicans to get this bill over the finish line, and then to your point exactly, he conceded that it's not going to be a deal that ultimately he agrees with every letter, and piece of punctuation and. it's something that he still will feel will be a good deal for the american people. that's going to be a big part of this timeline that we're going to keep an eye on here, because after the deal is announced, mccarthy talked to us just a few minutes ago, what's interesting is, we turn so many of these --

over the past week. , where so much of it was focused on the negotiations. a lot of this was focused on what comes after the negotiations with, she hasn't really entertained many question on that up until this point. but mccarthy is talking about, he's going to hold fast to that 72-hour rule, where after the legislation is written, he's going to give, not just has members, but the american public the opportunity to look at this bill and specificity for 72 hours. he said before the deal is released to anyone, he's going to brief his members on it. keep in mind, this is just a small number of people that actually knows enough, time gritty details of this negotiation right now. will brief all of his members, still write the legislation, it will be posted. 72 hours later, they will vote on it, and then it'll go through to the senate. mccarthy also telling us that he has been in contact with the king jeffrey, is not in the last 24 hours, but over the course of the negotiations, who's obviously the democratic leader, he talked to structure and -- senate side. he's trying to keep everybody

looped in on these conversations, so that once the legislation becomes a reality, is that process of shepherding it through the house and senate will be a bit easier. i do want to go back and pinpoint the very important piece of information you started with, ali, and is what does it look like, what coalition of republicans and democrats is it going to take to get through the house and senate and then could there be repercussions for mccarthy after the fact. if he loses 25 or 30 republicans, does that then put his speakership in jeopardy. that's part of the narrow needle that he's attempting to thread here to get this deal over the finish line, to stave off economic calamity. at the same time, allowing opportunity to govern going forward. it is no easy task, and it's something he's been dealing with since the moment he accepted the gavel after that lengthy fight to win the speakership. >> and yet he expressed

confidence when asked. i don't know whether you asked or another reporter asked, i saw the transcript of it. we'll just get done by january 5th, which is a week monday. he said yes. he didn't equivocate about that. >> that's exactly right, june 5th. and i asked him, specifically, if the exit gave them a bit more breathing room, and he said that he hasn't viewed it as a deadline -- his talking point, which is not incorrect, on but it's something he brings up every single time, that he's tried to negotiate since early february, didn't want to be in this position. but, yes, he was specifically asked, will they make it in time for the june 5th deadline. and he answered without any equivocation that yes, they would be able to get it done. so, there certainly a level of optimism in his tone, especially -- relatively optimistic throughout the entire process, but you do get the sense that there, in the closing hours of this debate. we heard from patrick henry earlier, where he said he's not sure if it's hours or days.

we try to pinpoint mccarthy on his belief if it's hours or days, and he wouldn't go into that, just to say that he felt they were heading in the right direction. >> thanks for your reporting, stay close, anything else happens, just knock on the camera and will bring it right back. ryan nobles for us at capitol hill. joined now by michael strain who's director of economic policy at the -- institute. he's also the author of the american dream is not dead, but possibly listened could kill it -- opinion writer for the washington post -- and host of the new podcast -- welcome to both of you, this couldn't be more perfect because we have both an economic question to answer now and a political question to answer. jen, let me start with you with the political question. mccarthy is sounding a whole lot like biden, last night biden's i will get a deal by midnight, that didn't happen, but that's a typical biden optimistic thing. mccarthy sounding optimistic, not saying that we're going to blow through this deadline, not even saying that he's getting everything he wants, but he thinks something is happening. give me your analysis of what's

going on right now. >> i think what's happening is there is a far greater chance of a deal happening then kevin mccarthy keeping his speakership. he is, i think at this point, completely it accord with the negotiating group. this is not going to be anything like what the freedom caucus wanted. we're not going to be rolling back a couple of years of spending. we're not going to be reworking the social safety net. it's going to look, frankly, very miles, and the backup deal, i think, is essentially a continuing resolution, which would be an extraordinary win if you think about it, for the president. then he gets his debt limit increase, and it's just a continuing resolution for the rest of his presidency. i think, for the first time, mccarthy understands that, he gets that, and now it's a matter of simply peeling off enough republican votes together with democrats, who i think will vote almost unanimously for this.

the problem with that analysis, however, is that it leaves him with great risk for his speakership. so, it's going to be fascinating to see if he survives it. i'm much more confident the country, the economy, and the debt ceiling will be taking care of. i wouldn't -- kevin mccarthy, however. >> michael, let's talk about the times when we've come close to the debt ceiling, this debt limit breaching. in september 1995, this was -- was in a few weeks of hits. in 2013, weiner versus obama, we came within weeks of it. in 2011, we came within 72 hours. you're an african almost guy, we came within 72 hours. actual damage was done to the u.s. economy. interest rates went up. borrowing costs got higher, business confidence was affective, which of course deals with employment and jobs. we're getting pretty close here. these people who are talking about june 1st june versus june 5th, this is very serious that

were this close to this deadline. >> yeah, i think that's right. financial markets have been very -- clear not worry about it, we talk to folks on wall street, will tell you that they're very confident the deal will get, and they're not worried about it, as well. the thing about markets are that they're not worry about it until they become worried about it. they're worried about, is there going to be really worried about it. you're right to look back at 2011. in 2011, congress president lifted the debt ceiling in time. we didn't miss any payments. we met the deadline. even still, the s&p 500, the stock market dropped, and lost 15% of its value. consumer confidence fell to levels that we hadn't seen since the 2008 global financial crisis, when people are feeling more pessimistic about the economy, they spend less money. interest payments shot up, taxpayers were on the -- extra interest payments. there was real damage done,

even though congress looked at the debt ceiling and time. that's why they really need to get this done as quickly as possible. lastly, better than this week, deadly week before that would've been better than last week >> the sooner the better with this. >> we're gonna spend a lot of time this week and talking to republicans who have valid and good face views and conservatives, like michael, who have good faith views about what spending should look like in this country and different approaches to dealing with this. how is it that we get across to people as congressman -- we are one of only two countries in the world that has the stupid system where you spend the money, and then you have to approve the payment of that money. right, in our normal life, when you spend the money on our credit card, you have to pay it. when you buy the car, you had to make the payments. when you buy the house, you have to pay the mortgage, until something -- like you lost your job. america didn't lose its job, america is just bs-ing around the edges. how do we stop this from happening, because this is a

waste of time in which we are not dealing with other important matters in this country. >> it is a, really an abomination for the leading economic military -- the other countries that does this, by the way, is denmark, little denmark. what they have said -- they will never reach it. were the only ones who are playing russian roulette, with not only our conemaugh, but the world economy. you know, i really do hold democrats somewhat responsible for this, they had the white house, they had both houses last year. they could've either taking care of this in the short term, or more importantly, use the reconciliation process and got rid of this entirely. both sides, somehow, think they're going to gain points by having this there, because will make the other side looks bad, or they'll get what they want. but, in fact, it's only republicans who've ever use this. they never gotten what they wanted, and it has done real economic damage, as michael said. so, i think we really need to

get rid of it. -- the presidency and gets both houses, he should put this on the table and get rid of this for could. >> the problem is, the list of things we actually have to change is really long. michael, you are a conservative. there are legitimate differences between democrats and liberals and conservatives about whether we should raise taxes on the wealthy or on corporations or spend less. wherever you stand on this thing, there is a budget process, which republicans control now. there is an appropriations process, there are actually built in ways to have these debates in this country. why are conservatives feeling that this is the police to have it. >> i think they feel like this maximizes their leverage, and if you look back at the last 40 years as -- most of them have not been clean. it's like 60 40. 40% more clean, the 60% had more provisions attached to

them. what president trump was president at the debt ceiling had to be raised, we also increase spending at the same time. so, congress looks for leverage points, that's how the way our political system works. the problem is that this particular leverage point is really, really -- it is not something. that should be messed around with, for the reasons we discussed earlier. even if you get your homework done on time, even if you raise the debt ceiling on time, you can inflict a lot of damage on the economy just by brushing up against the -- when episode you didn't mention, ali, go back to 1979, similar -- at the last minute, the debt ceiling was raised, but a technical glitch in the treasury department meant that were a little late on some payments. some economists think that interest rates and interest payments formed by taxpayers are still higher as a consequence of that technical glitch. this is something you don't want to mess around with. >> 50 years later they might be higher. it was a technical bush, the

thought somebody saying they want to bring down the house, that was a something happened and we did actually go into a brief default. jen reuben, it sounds from biden, mccarthy, it sounds like we're not going to get to this option of invoking the 14th amendment. yet another thing in the constitution that america probably didn't pay much attention to and now we talk about it all the time. the 14th amendment, very clearly, states that the validity of the public that of the united states shall not be question. obviously, that's not that clear, if you have to go to the supreme court. you can't wait until the last day to do this either, because if the president in folksy 14th amendment, which some democrats are asking him to do, it'll immediately be challenged in federal court, it impossible to the supreme court. again, what happens. when does joe biden say, i have to flip that switch? >> well, i think he would only do it if we really are within hours or days of the debt limit, and something go seriously wrong. it is, i think, an interesting constitutional issue. i think he has the better of

it. there's a very good points to be made, that even if you invoke is you don't remove the uncertainty. what michael has been talking about is the fear of default, the uncertainty that it injects is enormously hurtful and destabilizing to the economy. the markets are not going to say, oh well, this will work out itself. i think this will be a 72 or 63 ruling at the supreme court. they're going to freak out if that's what we're now engaged in. the time to try this was probably a long time ago, while before we got to the debt ceiling, and you could've actually had some definitive litigation about it. this is a legislative problem that could be easily solved. it's only because we have done this to ourselves, and it's funny that they think this gives them leverage. in fact, is it leverage if you could never push the button, if you could never really make good on your promise. i think what we're seeing now is republicans --

walk away with very little because they can push the button. they could do much better, frankly, getting into the weeds in the budget process. they control house of congress, for goodness sake. also they put out a spending plan, they never foot out a poll blanket plan, which would include taxes, for example. that would have been eye-opening. republicans are not on the side of angels when it comes to physical sobriety here. including and extending tax cuts creates a huge deficit problem. so, i think going forward, legislatively, it would be best to solve this well in advance as the next crisis. if that doesn't do the job, then you go -- to the courts, but not at a time when we're facing an economic calamity. that is too little too late. >> let me tell you, if they ever do get that on a budget process, we three squares will enjoy that discussion because it's like it's actually an important discussion. we should be having that

conversation.