tiktok. it is at alicia on msnbc. all those platforms. i will see you back here tomorrow. you know the deal, six vmas turn, three p empathetic for american voices. now, i handed over to michael steele. hello michael. >> hey alicia, how are you. good to see you. >> there has been breaking news throughout this show. i think you are going to be the one who actually gets the details of what happened on that phone call. i thought julie tsirkin was gonna run down the hall and put a cup to the door to hear what was happening. >> i got the cup, i'm ready to listen in. it's good to see you alicia. >> i love it, thanks michael. >> good evening, welcome to ayman. tonight, live up to the minute developments on the debt limit negotiations. plus, i'll speak with democrats judy chu and ted lieu and get their reactions to the chaos on capitol hill. then, getting closer, new indications that special counsel jack smith's investigation into donald trump's handling of classified documents, it's almost

finished. pardon-palooza. rhonda santa fouls to pardon some january 6th insurrectionists, including trump himself. what is he thinking? i'm michael steele in for ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. >> to breaking developments tonight to begin the hour. in a history making vote, the texas house just voted to impeach state attorney general, ken paxton. a republican. temporarily removing him from office over actions of misconduct that included bribery and abuse of office. the vote to adopt the 20 articles of impeachment was overwhelming. 100 and 21 to 23. attention now shifts to the texas senate which will conduct a trial with senators acting as jurors, and designated house numbers representing their place, presenting their case rather, as impeachment managers. also breaking tonight, new developments on the critical debt limit negotiations. a short time ago, nbc news

learned that president biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy just finished speaking by phone. their call lasting about 90 minutes. earlier biden spoke with democratic leaders, chuck shimmer, and he hakeem jeffries. the conversation comes at a critical time during negotiations, while both sides work to finalize a deal. one of the potential reasons a deal remains elusive, treasury secretary, janet yellen, just revised the fiscal deadline. telling all lawmakers they know of a few extra days until june 5th to act before government runs out of money to pay its bills. this, folks, is a very fluid situation. let's bring in former dana craddock congresswoman, donna edwards, and nbc political analyst and washington post columnist. congresswoman edwards, donna, as a former woman of congress, how do you think the president should be selling this to democratic leaders right now? >> i think first, the president

has to know really what the deal is. that's really important they've been haggling back and forth over the republicans have over inclusion of work requirements for programs like temporary assistance and needy families, what we know as welfare. i think this is a real problem that the president has in terms of maintaining the unanimity that he has had with the democrats and congress. the house in particular. so i think we will see what the final structures are of this bill. but it means that the president has to both maintain debt unit nvidia meng democrats. but that kevin mccarthy, that has a much more fraction to caucus, is going to have to deliver his votes as well. >> congresswoman edwards, stick around. we want to shift now to additional breaking developments in the manhattan district attorney's case

against donald trump. late last night, a court filing was made public that shows prosecutors have informed trump's attorneys that they are evidence in the hush money case includes an audio recording of trump and a witness. the filing does not identify the witness or say when the recording was made. it also doesn't mention when trump's lawyers were made aware of these evidence. a key witness in the case, former trump lawyer, michael cohen, previously released a secret taped audio recording of a discussion he had with trump about the hush money payments in 2016. it's unclear if the recording referred to in the court filing is the same one. also this week, in the same case, trump appeared by video and a manhattan court. a criminal court where a judge told him he could be held in contempt if he violates the terms of a protective order by publicly sharing evidence from the case. the judge notes what we all know, trump can't keep his mouth shut, right? so remember when he called gene,

e. jean carroll a, quote, unquote, whack job? just one day after the jury ruled him liable for sexually abusing and defaming her, guess what? it's a well warm page in trump's playbook for him to run his mouth. in 2016, trump said a judge overseeing a fraud case against his now defunct trump university was a hater. and accused him of being unfair to trump because the judge was, quote, mexican. throughout his presidency, trump repeatedly bashed former special counsel, robert mueller. calling him a full, and a never trumper. this time, trump's big mouth on legal issues could actually cost him big money. just days after he made those comments about e. jean carroll, carols attorney filed an amended lawsuit against trump asking for a very substantial additional amount of money due to the new efforts to defame her. joining me now are jill wine-banks, msnbc legal analyst, former assistant watergate

special prosecutor, and co-host of the sisters in law podcast. ruth ben-ghiat, professor of ruth, sorry ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at you new york university and author of lucid, a substack newsletter on threats to democracy. and donna edwards it's still with us. >> joe, we'll start with you. what do you make of the news that's coming out of a.g. bragg's office right now and how would this, new evidence of this trump audio affect the hush money case against the president? >> it's impossible to know what that is. it's a witness and trump. it could be michael cohen. it could be the tape that we already know about. but, it could be a different witness and a different type. either way, tape recordings are extremely powerful evidence. they frequently are determinative of a conviction. obviously, in watergate, we

used a lot of tapes. they really made the case. it's very important, because it could lead to a conviction just on one tape recording. but it depends on what it is. and we will have to wait and see. >> so congresswoman, you have a situation where trump has this long history of denigrating judges, lawyers, jurors, robert mueller, all of the above, right? do you see him actually being able to contain himself from continuing to defame miss carroll? >> i think unless we are going to see a different donald trump than the one we have seen over the last several years, then i think it is hard to believe that he is going to be able to contain himself. i think the difference here though, michael, is that you have a judge giving a pre-warning, essentially. saying you've got to shut up. i think that that is -- i think only when you have that

kind of admonition in advance is trump likely to really heed it. he faces really strong jeopardy, should he violate what the judge has described in this order. but it's really hard to see how somebody like donald trump, who is used to just exploding at will on social media and in public, that he really changed his behavior now. this is not a tiger willing to change his stripes. >> ruth, picking up on donna's point, it's the thing that rubs me in this narrative. trump attacks american courts. he attacked the justice system. you have a lot of folks out there saying, that's just trump being trump. do you see it that way? or is there a much greater threat towards these institutions in a democracy as a whole, when people adopt the attitude that you can just willy-nilly go after them? and it's just trump being trump? >> well, it's trump being trump

because trump is an authoritarian. from the very start, he has not only gone after the typical enemies of all of these people go after, the courts. journalists, prosecutors, anybody who can harm them and expose their corruption. but he's also made lawlessness his brand. so in every instance, he has to boast that he's above the law, no matter what the consequences are. the other thing is that he is a very damaged individual. that plays into. when you have that cnn town hall, which we are discussing, because it's where he repeated his defamation of e. jean carroll. he needed psychologically to undo his humiliation at the hands of the court. he hated. he had to get people to mark, to applaud him mocking her. so this, again, is this being lawless and misogynists and getting away with that. >> so jill, we also learned this week that trump's trial

will begin, i guess, in what, march of 2024? how lucky, right? the hush money trial, criminal case, taking place at that time. that's right in the middle of the gop primary. how should his legal team assess that? what should they be worried about, given the nature ruth was just talking about, their client and donald trump? what impact could that potentially have on these proceedings for the court? >> it will have no impact on the court proceedings, michael. because the court has made it clear that it is not going to change the trial date to accommodate his running for president. i think that was pretty clear. in terms of what he's going to do, he's going to use it to raise funds, and to say this is unfair to me. he will make a mockery of the justice system. but it's not going to change anything. i would, if i could, just add to something that donna said. i think that there is some

chance that things will be different in this case, because right now, he's facing a second defamation lawsuit by e. jean carroll. because he didn't run his mouth again. he couldn't control himself. the case is going to end up with, he, she, doesn't, rather, have to prove any defamation. it's the same things he already said before. the jury already ruled. there's a court rule that says when something is already decided between the parties, you don't have to retry that issue. every time he says it, she can bring another addition to her already pending lawsuit. because the one that was tried was for after he was out of office. the one that's about to be tried is the one that's for what he said while he was in office. and now, for what he said on cnn. so i think maybe, he's going to get the point that it's going to cost him millions of dollars every time he repeats it. and maybe that will shut his

mouth. >> that's a big baby. donna, i want you to take the political side of that coin. that we were just talking about, how should his political team be looking at this march 2024 court and trial? >> i think if we were in the middle of a general election, that might be different. but in a republican primary, it's actually hard for me to see how that, how any of these legal proceedings really make a huge difference to the voters who are going to show up in the republican primaries. in fact, i think that we are seeing some of that already. where his supporters seem to be really, you know, locking in for him. we will see how that plays out. i don't believe that it's going to have an impact on the primary election. although, it obviously, if he gets the nomination, it will have a tremendous impact come

the general election. >> all right, i'm going to ask my panel to stick around for a moment. because up next, new reporting on the evidence as special counsel, jack smith, has on trump's handling of classified documents. paradontax blood when you brush could lead to worse over time. help stop the clock on gum disease now. parodontax toothpaste... ...is 3x more effective at removing plaque bacteria, one of the main causes of bleeding gums. parodontax. the gum experts. a bend with a bump in your erection might be painful, embarassing, difficult to talk about, and could be peyronie's disease or pd, a real medical condition that urologists can diagnose and have been treating for more than 8 years with xiaflex®, the only fda-approved nonsurgical treatment for appropriate men with pd. along with daily gentle penile stretching and straightening exercises, xiaflex has been proven to help gradually reduce the bend. don't receive if the treatment area involves your urethra; or if you're allergic to any of the ingredients. may cause serious side effects, including:

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developments in the justice department's investigation into donald trump's handling of classified documents. on thursday, the washington post dropped this bombshell. two of trump's employees -- lie [inaudible] according to the post sources, the ex president and his aides also allegedly carried out a dress rehearsal practicing how to move sensitive documents before his -- these new details about special counsel jack smith's investigation come as bloomberg

reports on a fast approaching timeline for possible indictment. according to people familiar with the matter, the investigation may be in its final stages. with smith poised to announce possible criminal charges in the days or weeks after memorial day. let's bring back my panel. jill, let's start with you on this one. i don't want to get into being hyperbolic and all of that. but am i correct in characterizing this latest reporting from the washington post as a bombshell? it feels like these new details are pretty stark. that what do you make of what that says about jack smith's case against trump at this point? >> it says it's very strong, michael. i think it is very solid evidence a guilt, and of knowledge and intent. that to just sort of wrap this all up in one big bow. that it is obstruction, not just retention.

we've had a lot of evidence of obstruction throughout this. but this is really strong evidence. you have his lawyers notes. they are very incriminating, it seems to me. about what he said. asking him if he could fight the subpoena. that's fine. a client is entitled to ask that. but i'm assuming that any decent lawyer said to him, no you cannot. these are not your documents. they have to be returned. he did everything he could to prevent that from happening. that is proof of obstruction. so i think he's toast in this case. >> yeah, let's talk about the toast. donna, trump has repeatedly said he thought he was allowed to take the documents. i have a right to the documents, i can take them. but he's allegedly holding a dress rehearsal to hide the documents. that seems like behavior of someone who believed he was acting against the law, not in

accordance with the law. what is your take? >> well, i mean, it feels like this is a case that really is just closing on in on donald trump. i agree with jill, there are several things that we know. the national archives notified him that he needed to return documents. he maintained that he was able to declassify them in his head. then he receives a subpoena after months and months of trying to retrieve the documents. then he's going through all of these machinations for what to do if someone tries to find the documents. i just feel like this is one of these cases where jack smith is just lining up the dominoes and then they are all going to fall. and they are going to fall and and within indictment of donald trump. >> so ruth, what does this reporting tell you about donald trump's behavior at this point? his apparent disregard for the law, saying he can do things that he knows by law he can't.

two things, what is the risk that we get from this behavior? and what do you think the impact could have on the process going forward? >> this is very revealing of his personality, and it matches every authoritarian i've ever studied. the thing about people like trump's they have a proprietary view of governance. everything is there's. everything is theirs to exploit, to possess, to sell. trump is somebody who has absolutely no moral code. everything has a price, everything can be bought. everything is worth something. the idea that things belong to the state, and the public good versus him, doesn't cross his mind. he also knows that, so this is a kremlin playbook. his playbook, the most valuable currency today's intelligence and information. for all these reasons, he would

never have done the right thing and to turn backed the documents. indeed, he was having a dress rehearsal to hide them. that's what guilty people do. >> yeah, that's what guilty people do. jill, i have one last one for you. i want to share another detail from the post report. according to their sources prosecutors have gathered evidence indicating that trump at times kept classified documents in his office in a place where they were not only visible but in fact showed them to others. we are all kind of wondering team -- [inaudible] tell us about what kind of legal jeopardy that revelation puts trump in at this point. that screams espionage. >> it is a very much a ratcheting of possessions, mistaking failure to return and obstruction. because, remember, there's also a subpoena about his foreign

business dealings with the enumerated countries, including oman, and saudi arabia, and france. other countries, china. i think that with that addition, you can start saying, was he selling these documents? we don't have any evidence. there is no allegation of that yet. but when i put those things together, and say they are subpoenaing his business records, makes me think that maybe this is espionage. this is a definite deliberate attempt to hurt our country with as, ruth said, this is a sign of what authoritarians do. he doesn't care about our country. he only cares about himself. i hope that we aren't going to suffer from the fact that these were top secret documents. which are defined as documents that will, by their very disclosure, hurt the united states of america. that's what it means to have this classification. i hope that america is not hurt

by what he has done. and that he just sort of was showing off to people who weren't going to hurt the country as a result of getting it. but we can't know that right now. >> jill, i jill wine-banks, former congresswoman, donna edwards. ruth ben-ghiat, please stick around. i before we go to break, there's breaking news on the debt limit negotiations. house republican leadership has just notified members that they will be holding at least one conference call tonight to brief members on an emerging deal. this comes after president biden and speaker mccarthy spoke earlier tonight. that we do not know whether this signifies whether an agreement has been reached or not. speaker mccarthy told nbc news earlier in the day that should a deal be struck, members would learn about it first. we will bring you more information from both sides, on all sides, on all the calls that happen, as soon as we get it. we'll be right back after this. ter this

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unveiling of his 2024 presidential campaign, ron desantis said this week that if he were elected president, he would consider pardons for people involved in the january 6th insurrection. including donald trump. that announcement came the same day oath keeper founders, stewart rhodes, was sentenced to 18 years in federal person following his seditious conspiracy -- for his role in january 6th. and his top deputy, kelly meggs, was sentenced to a dozen years in prison. let's put desantis's pardon -- into a broader context. -- for crashing into barriers near the white house. the man told authorities he admired not cease and wanted to kill the president and seize power. that came just after a that

wielding -- gerry connolly's office in virginia. now, if those people are found guilty, would iran desantis pardon them? look, we are not saying desantis is to blame for those bad actors. but when you're in a petition of power and you tacitly condone acts of violence. like saying you're going to pardon -- lest we forget, donald trump's infamous message to the proud boys in the months before january 6th. stand back and stand by. back with me, ruth ben-ghiat. also joining me, catherine stewart, author of the book, the power worshippers over the dangerous rise of religious nationalism. ruth, here's my prize with the desantis thing. if he's willing to pardon these insurrectionist rioters on january 6th, who won't he pardon? where does the line draw here? >> there is no line.

ron desantis never has any original ideas in his head he's just a trump clone. he's following up on what trump has been promising pardons for's -- all of the gop. behind this is very dangerous thing is that this is part of legitimizing violence and encouraging lawless people to come into the country. yet again, it's like checking the boxes of authoritarianism. because for mussolini to pinochet, the chilean dictator, all of these people pardoned the thugs who helped them to get to power, who bashed heads for them. they all used pardons because it sends the message that the lawless are welcome here. that's what the gop is doing. so of course, desantis is mimicking this. >> picking up on that point, katherine, do you think oversee this effort to pardon folks as

an equivalent to the stand back and stand by moment that trump had? how do you think these groups, these organizations out here, both in terms of the individual members and as a group, we'll see that as maybe tacit or explicit approval of their extremist behavior? >> ruth is right. the point of desantis promising to pardon the january 6th seditionists is basically to signal that violence done on behalf of white supremacy, christian nationalism, anti-supposedly correct authoritarian cause will be permitted. it's outrageous. it encourages violence. sedition, violently attacking police officers, seeking to disrupt an election should never ever be taken lightly. but desantis is playing into the sense of victimhood and persecution of the authoritarian right. he's encouraging them. also dangerous is his suggestion that we are engaged in some kind of civil war with

communists and looters and chaos on one side, and christian nationalists and white supremacists on the other. there is no way between. what he is saying is, if you're not with the chaos agents, and the looters, you must be with us. and you must be okay with efforts to overthrow the elected government of the united states. but this is how authoritarians operate. they promote false narratives, legitimize violence by their supporters, and they seek to divide by playing on resentments. >> in fact, ruth, that effort to overthrow the elected government of the united states is an ongoing enterprise right now. capitol hill police revealed just last week that threats against members of congress have gone up 400% in the last six years alone. the new york times also reported last fall that congresswoman, alexandra ocasio-cortez, elon omar, and nancy pelosi, received the most threats in the house. so how harrowing is this moment for the country?

is this a new reality that members of congress, the house, the senate, are constantly under these threats? and how does that play itself out? >> this is the legacy of having somebody come to power. donald trump, excuse me, who is a violent authoritarian who by the january 2016 he said he could stand up on fifth of a new and shoot someone. and i wouldn't lose any followers. we all knew that he cater to white supremacists. neo-nazis, very fine people. this is the legacy of all of this. it's a highly dangerous involved situation. i might add, because we have the news of ken paxton that the texas gop one of the most extreme in the nation, does not recognize biden as the president in this. in summer of 2022, they cast a resolution saying that biden is an acting president. i study coups, a third of my

book is about quds. the gop has been creating this very dangerous climate about insurrection, which we had a coup. and not recognizing authorities taking down, discrediting authorities, calling for communists. that's how you get this riots and violence against elected officials. because the democrats are now political enemies. that's another authoritarian trend. you get paul pelosi having his skull bashed in with a hammer. they were out to find nancy pelosi. that is the outcome that you get. >> that right there is a critical part for me, catherine, when you look at how the elected leadership in the republican party particular. i've been calling this out from day one. downplaying these attacks, like january 6th, or the allen mall shooter as false flags. that's not real. this is not a real thing.

it's just a nice day in the capital on january 6th. for me, that's a form of complicity. how do you see that sort of, you know, laying of a soft love on something that is so obviously, slide grindley a violation of the constitution and dangerous to elected officials and our government? >> the republican party had plenty of opportunities to try to tamp down on the disinformation bubbles that have plural for aided among their base. they had plenty of opportunities to tamp down on the violent rhetoric that is proliferated among their politicians and their eco sphere. i think we have to ask, what do we learn about the state of the republican party from the fact that ron desantis, who is, at this point, a clear number two in the republican field. he's overtly aiming at the extreme right and not the center. the general tradition is that this candidate becomes more presidential, they tend to tap

towards the middle. but desantis is consistently doing the opposite. even worse, he's all style, no substance. the style is ugly. instead of trying to fix one of the most challenged public school systems in the country, he does these performative cultural war starts that will not leave a single student better off. instead of dealing with the fact that florida ranks very poorly and health care, he spent his time banning comprehensive reproductive care and abortion. he is really even going out of his way to appeal to violence seditionists. again, this is a tactic from the authoritarian playbook. >> ruth ben-ghiat, and katherine stewart. thank you very much. very informative. after the break, the latest on the debt limit negotiations. i'll be joined by congresswoman, judy chu, and congressman, some ted lieu, right after this. ter this the us, you'll find pnc bank. helping businesses both large and small,

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nbc news has just confirmed, according to three republican sources, a tentative agreement has been reached between republican leadership and the white house. on a debt ceiling deal. the contours of the agreement will be relayed to gop members on an all-member call happening in one hour. joining me now, to react, democratic congresswoman, judy chu, and congresswoman, ted lieu, both representing california. so, here we are. in the moment, what have you

heard from the democratic caucus, or the white house, about where these negotiations are at this moment, and can you confirm what these three congressmen, republican congressman have told nbc news? >> thank you michael for your questions. >> congresswoman chu, actually i'll defer to congressman ted lieu, because a he is in our house democratic leadership. >> thank you michael for your question. let me first say, it's an honor to be on your show with congresswoman judy chu tonight. i have been informed that there is an agreement in principle between the white house and house republicans. this was a house republican manufactured crisis. it's up to house republicans to defuse that crisis. as soon as we learned the details of this agreement principle, we will have the massive sorry provisions to provide that information to the

democratic members of our caucus. >> on that manufactured crisis piece, that had been prevailing talking point for a number of republicans over the past few days, especially now that we've seen that turned a corner into a deal. how do the democrats respond in this moment, given this backdrop leading up to now, sort of steadily saying, we are working a deal. seemingly, the white house has won. >> well, we will all be looking in great interest on what is in the deal, of course. i will be looking to see whether there are these increased work requirements for the poor. i thought that was the worst aspect of their proposals, because that would only serve to inflict pain on the poor. and what effectively cut off health care for 1.7 million low

income people. and cut off food stamps for 275,000 people. it was not because of some crisis or some scandal, it was just republicans making these demands. because the debt ceiling gave them the opportunity to do so. so, i will be very anxiously awaiting the details, to see whether that includes any of this. >> so congressman, lou, talking about the details, i know that democrats, they were very skeptical about going too far on the concessions. we don't know what the contours or the outlines of this deal are at the moment. do you think from your last conversations that those lines have been held, in terms of how far the democrats would go in conceding on some of the cuts and spending requirements that the republicans want to put forward? >> we have repeatedly informed

the white house that the republicans are not going to have the votes that they need to pass this deal. so they're going to require democratic votes. you are not going to be able to compromise on a value and expect democrat votes. the white house knew that. they were negotiating from a position of strength. they understood that in order to get any democratic votes, they are going to have to have a deal that democrats can actually vote for. so we look forward to seeing these details. i know that the white house was very cognizant that they could not accommodate most of the republicans demands. because then you have no democrats voting for the deal. >> congressman lieu, and congresswoman chu, standby for a moment. let's go live to nbc news capitol hill correspondent, julie tsirkin. julie, what can you tell us about this tentative agreement between republican leadership and the white house. a breaking moment on the debt limit conversation. >> it's one we've been waiting for all day, all week, if not

for the last several weeks. we are told, just in the last few minutes, that the white house and republican negotiators did reach a deal in principle. an agreement in principle, i say that carefully, because remember, republicans want a chance to sell their members. which we are told they are going to do in under an hour. at 9:30 tonight. and all member call will be held where republican leadership will start to begin to see how many members they can get on board for this agreement. if they can sell it to enough of their membership, the event supported at the end, which we expect they will. according to republicans. so look, all of this right now comes down to what's actually in this deal, of course. we don't have the exact contours figured out. but the fact that this agreement was struck, we are told, during that phone conversation between the president and between the speaker that happened earlier in the evening, is significant. patrick mchenry, a close ally of speaker mccarthy had told us that the resolving issues, the remaining issues they have would only be resolved by those two men. it appears that they have.

some of the biggest sticking points we've been talking about concern spending cuts to domestic spending. that is what republicans want. they wanted in the shape of work requirements, of permitting reform. other areas that they believe they can get that done. we don't know the exact outlines of that deal. it remains to be seen how democrats feel about it. which i'm told, as of this moment, they do not have a call scheduled to go down. the contours of the agreement. we will see what we get in just the next few moments as they have this phone call of course. >> julie, one quick one for you. have you been hearing any grumbling from either democrats or republicans as there are being fed what this potential deal is? >> not yet. right, you've seen a lot of public posturing all day. a lot of republican members in the house freedom caucus pointing me to their latest tweet, their latest public comment. trying to keep the pressure on republican negotiators, on speaker mccarthy, who of course wanted the concessions they made is that any one member can call up a vote to remove him. to remove the gavel from

mccarthy. so they're all very closely watching how this deal shapes up. we know several of them didn't even buy that x date set by janet yellen, of course we know that date has moved up a little bit. extending the time that these negotiators have to complete their homework. but all of this is significant progress. if they reach this deal tonight, if members accepted, that means we can have a vote as soon as tuesday. because remember, mccarthy promised 72 hours to read this bill. which he told us earlier will be something in the ballpark of 200 pages. not 1000 plus. >> all right, nbc's julie tsirkin, thank you for your time tonight. and keeping us up to date on what's happening. let's bring back to the conversation democratic congresswoman, judy chu, and congressman, ted lieu. both representing california. i asked julie there about any grumblings from democrats or republicans as this deal is beginning to seep out. are you concerned about what could potentially be in this deal, congressman chu,

congresswoman chu. in terms of the things that certainly more progressive members of the caucus were very worried about, in terms of the spending agreements or cuts that could be made? >> yes, well i just told you that i'm very concerned about these work requirements. which are unnecessary and only would inflict pain. but i'm also concerned about the spending cuts. and whether the spending cuts, which would be exclusively on domestic spending, and not on defense, wood to hurt our programs. would hurt our health care programs, such as medicare, medicaid, the affordable care act. veterans affairs. i would have to see how severe these spending limits are. and then, the other issue that there is has to do with the facilitating permitting. i would have to see the details on that. i know that we want to

facilitate the permitting for building infrastructure for green energy. but i don't want to have any relaxation that would any harm the environment. there's a delicate balance there. >> we are just getting word that, and we can report, that kevin mccarthy will give formal remarks at nine, ten p.m.. we will break bringing those comments alive to all of you. as soon as the speaker speaks. and steps in front of the microphone. congressman lieu, let's talk a little bit about before the call between mccarthy and the president this evening. what was the posture of the democratic leadership in the ear of the president, in terms of what congressman, congresswoman chu was just laying out in terms of those concerns. and sort of helping the president brace up against mccarthy and the assistance that these draconian cuts be made. and particularly the changes to

the work rules. >> the message was not only to president biden, but also to the house republican caucus. that if they want democratic votes, then it's got to be a reasonable deal. otherwise you're not going to get democratic votes. let's take a step back as to why we're here. in addition to a republican manufactured crisis, the other reason we are here is because donald trump put in these massive tax cuts for the wealthy and the top 1%. they weren't paid for. in fact, 25% of the national debt was accrued under one administration, the trump administration, with these massive tax cuts that dramatically lowered revenue. so if you're going to have a fair budget, you are going to have to talk about both spending and revenue. >> congressman lieu, i want to follow up on one aspect of this that i found just watching and observing as an american. as most americans have. this whole process played itself out. we've been given word tonight that mccarthy is coming to the

microphones at 9:10. but mccarthy is the one that is telling the public and feeding the narrative about the process. the white house, ostensibly, has been somewhat reserved, to put it politely. and sort of creating the narrative around their efforts in the negotiations. am i miss reading that? should americans, or certainly democrats, be concerned about the level of, and agreed to, which the administration has set the narrative correct with them? so that we have a fuller understanding of what's in this deal. >> so let me tell you why i think that is happening. the house republican caucus has become so radicalized, that they are willing to default and not pay our bills. which would be catastrophic and crash the economy. democrats are just not willing to go there. it is kevin mccarthy that has to now rained back his extreme

republican caucus. i think that is why he's been out there trying to talk to the press, and now he's going to talk to his republican colleagues. because he has to rein them back, because they've gotten so crazy. >> here is the other side of this narrative, congresswoman chu, that i think it is important to establish as we get ready to hear exactly what this deal is going to be. that is the impact that it has on families out there. what the markets look like on tuesday, when they opened after the holiday, all of those points really matter. so do you anticipate the administration at some point, maybe the president or certainly janet yellen, sort of contextualizing that moment come tuesday? when folks get over their three-day holiday at the beach. and now focus on the fact that we dodged a bullet here.

we dodged a big one. what does this set up going forward, particularly if this deal is not a longer term deal? >> well, i think we certainly didn't need to have a deal. but i think it should have been a clean deal. in fact, as congress member lieu, said, trump was responsible for 25% of the deficit. but they raised the debt ceiling three times in a clean bill. they didn't require any of these kinds of impediments to their bill. but if we didn't reach a deal, yeah, the average american person would clearly see a hit. because the stock market would immediately go down. the average worker, close to retirement, would take a 20,000 dollar hit to their retirement

savings. the cost of a car loan would increase by over $800. a new home owner could see their monthly mortgage payment go up to $160 per month. thanks to these threats. costing them an extra $58,000 over the life of a lone. there would be so much loss for the american people. we have to reach some kind of conclusion here. >> so congresswoman, i can't let you get out of here without doing a little bit of politics. that's what i do. i want to get your thoughts on the post agreement narrative for democrats. setting up, now that the republican field is taking shape with its presidential candidates, including trump and desantis and a few more looking to get in. the president clearly has his lane. how does this story fit into the narrative that this administration has asking for the american people for reelection? >> remember, congressman lieu,

i. >> oh i'm sorry. >> democrats pass infrastructure law to rebuild roads and bridges and highways. what are republicans focused on? banning books, banning abortion, and just an unprecedented level of hate directed at the lgbtq community. the american people are reacting to that. in wisconsin earlier this year, there was a statewide election where supreme court justice swing state was not even close. democrats won that race. then we reasonably flipped the membership of jacksonville florida. a conservative city. one commentator said that's an equivalent of a republican winning san francisco. you're seeing the american people react to the extremists of the republican party. >> all right, congresswoman judy chu, congressman ted lieu, really, thank you both for your time tonight. i appreciate very much your flexibility with this on this developing story. don't go anywhere folks.

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a man, i'm michael steele in for a minimally dean. nbc news has confirmed that according to