we know that they are looking at wednesday as a possible date when the house could be in session and vote on this. senators have been told they are aiming for friday for senators to place the vote, and we will keep our eyes on this developing story. that is all the time i have for today, i am alicia menendez, thank you for spending part of your sunday, especially this holiday with us. make sure you've all the show on twitter, instagram, and on tiktok. that is at alicia on msnbc, i'm gonna see we are next weekend for more american voices. but for now, i handed over to my colleague betty hassan. hello mehdi. ty hassan. hell>> thank you so much, aim is actually a way today animal for two hours, and i think any tours to get through some of the state deal stuff. because i'm not for a stand on it now. >> it is -- >> it's also -- it's very divisive, a lot of people think it's good, all of people think it's bad included in the left. we're gonna debate that tonight, so alicia have a great rest tonight, i'm gonna go to and

make sense of this with our viewers. >> thanks mehdi. >> here we go. tonight, on a two hour edition of the mehdi hassan show, breaking details of the debt limit deal. we will hear from democratic congressman greg azar, who just got briefed by the white house on -- intubated with two experts. then special counsel jack smith manhattan the alvin bragg put out new potentially damning evidence against, who else, donald day trump in their respective cases. and setting the record straight on one henry a kissinger. the former secretary of state marks his 100th birthday, we will look back at his dark and very bloody legacy. good evening, i am many hassan. we have breaking news tonight, we have what they are calling a deal. just a short time ago, president biden spoke about that debt limit in principle, reaches we can do in his administration and the

republican leadership in the house. >> we've got good news, we just spoke with speaker mccarthy, and we have reached a bipartisan budget agreement that we are ready to move to the full congress. and i think it's a really important step forward, excuse me, it takes the catastrophic default off the table, protects our heart earned restarted economic recovery. the agreement also represent compromise which means no one got everything they want. >> just before we came on air tonight, the text of that bill was released. it is 99 pages in total. two sources tell and nbc news houseplants you take it up on wednesday after markets close. over the last few hours, democratic and republican leaders have been busy working the phones rallying their members to get the agreement across the finish line, and as a standard d.c. protocol, both parties are trying to spin the outcome as a win for their side and a loss for the other. here is my take, two things can

be true at the same time. yes, it's a good thing, a very good thing that it looks like we won't be defaulting on the debt for the very first time in our history calm x day, come june a fifth. and yes, this deal is definitely not as bad as it could have been. remember, republicans originally wanted to slash not defense spending by 22%. according to the congressional budget office, the gop backed bill passed last month in the house would have trimmed 32 trillion dollars in discretionary spending over ten years, while a rough new york times calculations suggest the agreement, reached by biden mccarthy, catches 650 billion dollars. but, there's always about, 650 billion still bad. and we look at the details of the bill, what was actually agreed upon this could hardly be called a win for democrats. let's take a look, the bill will take the issue of the debt limit off the table for the next two years until after the 2024 election. during that time, defense spending and funding for veterans care would receive a boost, there's always money for the pentagon, well-known

defense spending would remain at roughly current levels in 2024 and increase just 1% in 2025, a real terms cut. the bill would also impose new work requirements for some low income people who receive food assistance under a program known as snap, although thankfully it will exempt the homeless. it will also rescind some irs funding, the democrats approve last year to help catch wealthy tax cheats. and it calls back unspent covid-19 relief funds. so yes, while none of that is as bad as the slashing and burning the house republicans originally wanted, should we be cheering on a deal that makes it harder for some of the poorest people in america to get their groceries? should we be taking a victory lap for a proposal that strips funding from the irs to go after tax dodgers? personally, i don't think so. the fact that republicans wanted to do worse, for that some of the most right-wing republicans in congress like lauren boebert are mad about this deal cannot be the benchmark for success. and while some may say, that is simply the reality of a budget deal in the days of divided

government. i have to remind you, this is not just any budget deal. as i mentioned, this agreement includes a two-year extension of the debt limit, effectively kicking the can down the road again. and what is so frustrating about this outcome is the fact that democrats had not won, but two chances to take the debt limit of the table. they could've done it in 2022 when they controlled the house and senate. back then even treasury secretary janet yellen urged democrats to act while they still have control of both chambers. but the democrats he dealings advice? did they try and get manchin on board? nope. and since then, even some moderate, you know, some moderate democrats have expressed regret over not acting in the 2022, not just folks like me. but despite that regret it appears the party did not learn a lesson. democrats had another chance resulted at limit today, this week in fact. right now, and evoke the 14th amendment, but they did not do that either. instead, they pronounced that they would not use the 14th amendment which says you can't invalidate the debt. they unilaterally disarm the

negotiations. the negotiations that joe biden said he would not engage in, and shows as we can to make a deal with republicans who were holding the economy hostage. and here i thought we did not negotiate with terrorists. but let's go back to what was agreed between the two sides for a moment. look, i'm hesitant to even call this budget bill a deal since the deal implies that both sides get something out of the agreement. and recent weeks, it seem like biden and the democrats have been negotiating almost entirely on republican terms. defense spending goes up forever and ever, four people get screwed again and again. remember biden's proposed 2024 budget? whatever happened to those tax hikes on corporations and the rich? what about free preschool or expanding a child tax credit? none of that made it into this so-called deal. i have to ask, what did democrats get here? not defaulting on the debt? i'm sorry, that's not a win for democrats, that is just what government, regardless of party is supposed to do and has always done. so can this truly be called a

deal if only one side actually got what they wanted, even if it was not everything that they wanted, and republicans clearly did not have everything they wanted? and question, are democrats really prepared to do this all again in two years time? let's get into it with two people who have two very different views on the matter. on friday, former clinton administration official and columnist for the daily beast david roth got praised president biden's deal making proud listener op-ed call, and the contours of disagreement, a major success for the president. well bruce -- an ex reagan official and former deputy assistant secretary for economic policy to the u.s. treasury department on the george h. w. bush had a different, and interestingly i would argue, more left-wing take. tweeting last night quote, definition of a democratic victory according democratic cheerleaders -- giving republicans a slightly smaller cut in benefits for the poor than republicans originally demanded. thank you both, david and bruce, for joining me tonight. it's a big news night. david let me play to you what they can mccarthy had to say earlier about the agreement. >> right now the democrats are

very upset. the one thing hakeem told me, there's nothing in the bill for them. there's not one thing in the bill for democrats. >> hakeem jeffries is a 90 said, that what kevin mccarthy kind of has a point, doesn't he? what other specific policies in this bill that democrats can claim as a win? avoiding default is not a democratic party win. >> well, i would dispute that. i think default would've been catastrophic for everybody, i also think the 14th amendment route, which the president said he would look into now once this crisis had passed was not something that made sense because of it went to the courts that would roil the markets. and with the supreme court that we have currently we don't know what the outcome would be. so, i think that's a success. having said the, the core success of this for democrats is that biden's spending levels for the past couple of years are maintained. there were not draconian cuts in the priorities that have been set by democrats, and

biden when they controlled both houses of congress. and that is extremely important. you know, should there have been tax hikes? should there not have been any cuts into programs for the poor? of course, but we live in a divided government. we have to deal with this. mccarthy has come up with a program that has alienated his right-wing base, which is a sign that there's got to be something right with it. and the president has -- led us to a place where we are going to get a deal that is probably the best deal that we could have gotten in the normal budget process had taken place, in the next october as it normally would. >> that's a fair point, david. bruce let me bring you in here. it's divided government, this is how it works, we have waited a default, there are draconian spending cuts, it's a win for joe biden and the democrats. do you do with that? >> no, i do not at all. i think that biden played his

cards very, very badly by putting literally nothing on the table so that he had nothing to negotiate with other than preventing a collapse of the worldly economy. i mean personally, i think he should have invoke the 14th amendment and many other provisions of the constitution that gave him the power to simply ignore the debt limit. it's really just an advisory resolution -- not real law, because there's no penalties for violating it and no one is standing to sue. so i think there was a great deal of worry about nothing in this area. but having missed the opportunity to raise the debt limit last year, and i was among -- an among others advised him to do so. but some, chuck schumer and others in congress saying, all we can win this.

this will be a great win for the democrats. that obviously was ridiculous. but he at least should have put taxes on the table. he should have said, as democrats did all during the 19 80s, if you want to dollar spending cut i want dollar tax increase. and then you could have had some kind of meaningful negotiation. but all -- down until today, all biden did was try to cut back on the republican spending cuts that were completely unnecessary to begin with. >> david, biden said there would be no negotiations. not only did he do negotiations, bruce is saying i'm not meaningful negotiations from today democratic one of you. >> well obviously they were meaningful negotiations if we avoid a deadly fall. we have maintained our spending levels. we did not have major draconian cuts across the way that the republicans wanted. and we're now going to be able to go forward and grow our economy which has been the objective of the president all

along. i think it is incredibly naive to think that if the white house had thought the 14th amendment would work they would not have invoked it. of course they would have, but they did the math and they realize that the turmoil this was likely to cause in the courts was not going to work. i think the president was very canny and the way that he handled this negotiation because he did not get out and lie like mccarthy did, he did not go and get all extreme about it. he made them come to hit with an offer, he sat down, he negotiated this, and i gotta tell you this is a lot better than most people thought they would end up with a budget from mccarthy and the republicans on an ongoing basis and the normal budget process. >> okay, last word to you bruce. you're being naive, david suggests. this was a better deal than anyone expected. >> we'll look, if you're going to say to a hostage taker. okay, i'm glad i bid you down

from $100,000 to return my child on harm to only 50,000. wow, that's a pretty good deal of gas, except that the hostages still there. it's going to be taken in two years, and two years after that forever until we stop the extortion. i think at some point some president, probably not biden, has got to get rid of this threat and the constitution has many ways that would allow that to happen. >> if one of my producers as listening to me now, can someone right now that we need to get bruce and david back in 2025 when we do this all again, to debate this again. brew spotless, david rothkopf thank you both i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> next, i will as progressive congressman greg casar what he thinks about biden and mccarthy's tentative debt ceiling agreement. do not go away. o away

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president biden gave remarks on the debt ceiling agreement, calling it an important step forward. good news, this comes after house and senate democrats received a white house briefing with more details on the bill. the 99-page text was also released months ago. among the provisions, expanded work ornaments for snap eligibility and an increase in defense spending. before the contours of the deal were released, progressives were already saying democrats may have over compromised. this is what congressional progressive caucus chair jayapal said this morning. first >> of all, let me say terrible policy. absolutely terrible policy. does not reduce spending. by some estimates creates a burden on administrative spending that is actually worse for cost of a program like that all the things you care about is what republicans want to cut. >> joining me now to discuss,

this is democratic congressman greg azar of texas. they caucus. thank you for me on the show. what you reacted direction to the deal as a progressive member of the house. how do you sell it to your fellow progressives out in the country who say there's always more money for defense and never enough money for things like food aid. >> my reaction to this is that mccarthy has been doing an entire sham game at this entire time. he is such a fraudster. you heard the republicans talk time and time again about how this is about cutting deficits. at the end of the day, at the end of this horrible negotiation, and what was republicans bottom line they wanted to cut the irs programs that go after corporate tax cheats. at the end of the, day that's what this is all been about. we can't let ourselves be in this kind of situation again. it's about taking money out of working class people's pockets and putting it into billionaire portfolios.

>> it's interesting you said we can't find ourselves in a situation like this. this deal explicitly sets out another situation like this in 2025. reelected president biden perhaps really facing a republican house, maybe even republicans -- who knows. it's not going away. was it a mistake,, congressman for the present, leader of the party to engage in negotiations. with republicans. i was saying for, minds there would be no negotiations, only a clean debt ceiling increase. >> the biggest problem is we're in the situation in the first place. president biden is essentially saying that he has in a hostage situation where the hostages the american people on the american economy, people watching at home in a default situation lose their jobs, you could lose your, house lose your savings. real hostage situation, the president saying hayes negotiating a essentially a lower ransom payments from the extremist republicans. i understand that's hard work. the real question is, why do we

let people like the likes of marjorie taylor greene take the entire american economy for hostage in the first place? will they be held accountable? these people who have no responsibility governing anything, how can we let them have this kind of power? so, absolutely, that's why we need to abolish the debt limit. that's why rate as soon as elected as a new member of congress, i was in the meetings. folks that, shouldn't we raise the debt limit so they can't put us in the situation? i think ultimately, it's been a no win situation for the democrats and for the american public and now we have to find a way out of the hostage situation. we are to make sure it never happens. >> i agree with you on the hostage situation. i agree with you on the the ransom the only way to and it is to revoke the 14th amendment. joe biden on friday, the secretary said not to do it. it's a weird thing to say in the middle of negotiations. if you're not going to do, it you don't pronounce iroquois to do it. would you have liked to have seen the administration actually part of the 14th amendment to avoid having to

actually follow this ridiculous a debt limit? i think whether they're going to do it or, not they should have been pressing for it. it's part of why our progressive caucus, the whip of the caucus, the organizing members together, the overwhelming majority of progressive members of congress pushed him talk about the constitutionality of the 14th amendment. if that's not the way that we're going to go, then we should go and pass a bill to essentially make it very clear in the law. we have to make sure we aren't put in the snow in situations. ultimately, and what we end up talking about on the house floor, or in shows like this, well, are we going to pick the lock to get the hostage out? are we going to pay the ransom, are we going to take out the backdoor? we just need to end the ability of them to do this. right, now they can't be held accountable for it. they don't even have to talk about what they're getting. they just try to impose these massive cuts. >> i agree with you on all that. let's just get back to the agreement before we run out of

time. you said you are the whip of the congressional progressive caucus. are the members of your caucus going to vote later this week with a speaker mccarthy and his more loyal republicans and get this bill through congress. as president biden has asked you to do just earlier this evening, are you going to vote for this agreement? >> i don't think anybody's vote can be taken for granted on this. speaker mccarthy should be wrangling his own caucus members. many of whom are upset because they say it doesn't hurt enough people. so, the bill texas just released ten minutes before i log down to this call. we are working if you can really gather. you talk about the bill attacks. there is a lot of really concerning parts of this bill. a lot of things progressives have said we are against. at the same, time we are being put between a rock and a hard place, folks saying, well, are you pro default? are you pro some of these mccarthy provisions? we are against it all. so, even if you see progressives trying to wrestle

with how to deal with this false choice, the thing that unites us all is that we should be invoking the 14th amendment. we should be having a supreme court that is actually reading the constitution. we should do court reform to make sure that is clear. that's what we should be uniting progressives. a four just talking about the vote this, week it's important, we're missing the bigger picture. >> as of tonight, a 20 bpm, greg khazar is not decided that he's voting for this billion. >>,. . . ,,. . . . ,,.

>> that's a good answer. congressman greg azar, thank you for your time. >> i appreciate. that i appreciate you covering this. it's so important. it's a really a dangerous situation. >> indeed, still ahead, another, week another set of new revelations about donald trump's legal woes. and yet he still running for president and leading the gop field. where things stand on the legal exposure after a short break. don't forget, before we go to break, you can listen to the show anytime for free wherever you get your podcasts. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ my most important kitchen tool? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger.

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evening to. you stores, watching three people were killed and at least five injured in a shooting at a motorcycle rally in new mexico. all eight people identified as members of outlaw motorcycle gangs. one of the injured was charged with murder. turkey's president erdogan winning reelection sunday in a runoff vote. which extends his 20 year leadership by another five years. he trailed in the polls leading up to the election. everyone also faced -- over the rising cost of living. the government response to an earthquake that killed tens of thousands of turkey citizens. kyiv suffered the largest around attack since the start of the russian invasion. ukraine officials say 54 russian drones were launched. 52 of them shot down. nbc has not independently verified the numbers. local officials say at least one person was killed. two others were entered at that attack. more of the mehdi hassan show right after this break. ♪

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long tonight because a man's away. at the top of the next, hour i'll be discussing the ever expanding republican presidential primary. despite the recent entries like senator tim scott and desantis, poll after poll zeroes this race could be one mans to lose. donald j trump. in, fact it appears the fiercest foe in this primary season is not the new gop

rivals. the courts. in the week or so, just in the last week or, so there been major developments. the special counsel jack smith investigation into the ex president's handling of classified documents, the washington post no reports that not only did trump's work allegedly move documents when before an expedited yet to mar-a-lago y'all so held address for her soul on how to move sensitive material prior to receiving a subpoena. and you, are the hush money payments have now informed the ex presidents attorneys that their evidence includes an audio recording of him and a witness. in georgia, the prosecutor investigating trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election in that state has indicated her charging decision could come as soon as august. that's just all the criminal cases. on the civil, front writer e. jean carroll is seeking additional damages in her defamation lawsuit against trump after he criticized her he says he defamed her again during the need tourist cnn

town hall considering all of this i have to ask kim donald trump even make it to the gop nomination in 2024? let's discuss with farmer craig, the legal analyst and former u.s. attorney in michigan. lisa reuben and msnbc legal analyst and dean of the dola, host of the dean of $1 show on sirius xm and a columnist. thank you all for joining. barbara, let me start with you. let's talk about another detail from the bombshell washington post reporting on jack smith's documents case. according to the post sources prosecutors have gathered evidence indicating that trump at times kept classified documents in his office in a place where they were visible. even sometimes showing them to others. is this the smoking gun that jacks mitt needs to try to charge trump under the espionage act? >> that development would be in a standing new aggravating factor here. one of the things prosecutors look for where making a charging decision is not simply what is simply someone mishandled classified documents,

whether there is an aggravating factor president in one of them. disclosing those to people unauthorized to see them. so, we don't know who that was. was it someone at the club he was bragging to? was it a foreign national? anyone who is unauthorized to see them as problematic. >> he never bragged anyone. how can we doing that? how could he dare suggest such a thing. if this is just a small fraction of the evidence that jack smith is collecting thus far, the question then becomes what's he waiting for? you know, mehdi, i go to the gym a lot. i eat well just so i can stay alive long enough for charges to come against donald trump from doj. i'm in good shape. i could live for years to come. i don't know,. this is an inshallah prosecution. angela means god willing. often never. it's going to take a sign from god. the voice of god, locus, no one

knows, it's been two years, this is outrageous. >> i do follow you. i see the regular time stamp updates. and with. you i'm still waiting. lisa, let's switch gears to the manhattan d.a.'s case. alvin bragg's case. the news of that audio recording. there is a place where actually he's going to trial next year. we know a key witness in that case, ex trump lawyer michael cohen reached a secretly taped audio recording of discussion with trump in 2016. we know these are recordings that i referenced in that new court filing? >> we don't. matty, what we do know, from that court filing, among the other pieces of evidence that the manhattan d.a.'s office has 's data extracted from one witness to cell phones. that might suggest that the witnessing question is indeed michael cohen. we just have no way of knowing from the face of that document. >> bob, on the heels of that

manhattan indictment, i'm jumping around the country. that's donald trump's legal woes. trump may be soon staring down another in a letter. fulton county d.a. in georgia asked a judge to not scheduled trials or in-person hearings during august the 7th and 14th. your former prosecutor. does that indicate to you that charges may be on the horizon there in georgia? >> it does, i don't think you have to be of any type to realize what's going on there i think if he wants to clear the debts and make sure there are people around because she is appropriately anticipating that there could be civil unrest which he unveiled an indictment and it will be unnecessary to make that extraordinary request if he didn't think number one there would be an indictment and number two donald trump's name would be on it. . >> you should have, you? lisa,,.

70% of her work focused home. part of that has got to be driven by a concern about the safety for those who work in the d.a.'s office. that's a motivating concern right now. for manhattan d.a. alvin bragg who's staff and who personally has been threatened as his own investigation and indictment of donald trump has proceeded. >> dean, cycling back to washington d.c. in the federal case. i know that's what concerns you most and rightly so. this week in the january six case, tomorrow if the court bears were sent to prison for their actions on january the 6th. we keep seeing oath keepers get convicted and sentenced. for seditious conspiracy, i wonder, how can the depot keep -- prosecuting the underlings while ignoring the person at the top of that seditious conspiracy. that's an excellent question, it's a question we'll ask ourselves. i count out from january six,

we are two years and 143 days since january 6th. in that time, doj charge and tried him and convicted him and sentenced 18 years in jail. either people go, hey, this is not epsilon order, look what they did, donald trump should be facing 18 years or more. -- ways it out. so, we're all waiting in sheila. we need god to get involved in this one i think. we >> it is amazing that you have these oath keepers going to prison. republicans used to, say, well it can't be an insurrection, nobody's been charged with seditious conspiracy. now they're being charged, they're being convicted, they're being sentence, and yet donald trump is running for president again. it's bizarre. last word to you, lisa. let's talk about the non criminal staff. let's talk about eugene carroll, who won her defamation and sexual assault case a few weeks back.

donald trump goes on cnn the next day. the famous aarian, she says. she is now filed a new motion. break that down. what's going on in that case? >> eugene carroll, also has an existing case that goes back to 2019. donald trump was still president. she first came for with a sexual assault allegations. he denied them immediately. he said some of the same things for which he had that jury vote against them a few weeks ago. that verdict concerns statements he say made in 2022. you have to think about e. jean carroll still exist in case almost as a sandwich to what donald trump has already been found liable for. it's the statements going back to 2019. as well as the punitive damages for, as, you know what he said on cnn, earlier this month, she is now looking for damages at the two bookends. the verdict already, has it's the thing in the middle. >> donald trump is a multibillionaire.

and he can afford to just keeping. and that's what he tells us. barbara mcquade, lisa, rebound dina medulla, thank you all for your analysis, i appreciate it. coming up next, 100 years of henry kissinger. it was his birthday yesterday and yet decades of him avoiding and accountability for all the lives lost on his watch. we'll discuss. we'll discuss. for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops with two times more menthol per drop*, and the powerful rush of vicks vapors for fast-acting relief you can feel. vicks vapocool drops. fast relief you can feel. trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on... ♪ [coughing] ♪ ...by, you know how i feel. ♪ if you're tired of staring down your copd,...

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of laos, support of the brutal military coup and chilly, and turn a blind eye to alleged genocide in bangladesh. so how has henry kissinger avoided any accountability for so long? in some of the media are addressing his crimes, the wall street journal, time magazine among others have portrayed him as an experience, wise elder statesman. in fact, kissinger is regularly featured in the economist magazine to pontificate on the current state of foreign affairs, including the war on ukraine. president biden has not invited him to a meeting at the white house, yet, but that is only after kissinger enjoyed an invite from every other president over the last 50 years, including democrats like barack obama and bill clinton. my question tonight, how is kissinger even a free man? much less a revered foreign policy expert. what does that tell us about america? let's bring in my panel david corn, msnbc political contributor. washington bureau chief and author of the book american psychosis, historical investigation of how the republican party went crazy.

and nick terse, as a contributing writer for intercept and author of kill anything that moves the real american war in vietnam. thank you both for joining me tonight. david, you have written a piece for mother jones this week, saying the rest of us will owe history an apology if we do not consider the man in full. why do you think u.s. political and media elites have given kissinger such passed for so long, despite the mountain of evidence against him? >> you know, if you're going to commit crimes go big. that's one of the lessons of henry kissinger. his crimes are almost unfathomable to imagine. you have detailed a few of them, nick has reported on some of them. we are talking about genocide, for instance, and east timor. when he and gerald ford, don't leave gerald ford out of this, basically gave the approval to the dictator of indonesia to go into east timor, it was moving towards autonomy and independents. and there was a genocidal

slaughter of 200,000 people. okay, we can understand someone going into a 7-eleven in shooting up 20 people. killing 200,000 people because you believe the americans will let you get away with that is something i think is very difficult for a lot of people to get their heads around. and i think it's also, you know, henry kissinger's guilt is our collective guilt as a nation. and so if you don't want to face that, if you don't want to face an american who's done some of the most brutal foreign policy decision making, you don't want to hold henry kissinger accountable. so i think there's a lot of interest in the foreign policy elite to, give him a pass and to hail him for the positive accomplishments that are rather obvious. >> and as you are speaking, i'm sure our viewers thought of bill clinton chuckling away standing next to kissinger. you are right to say the almost unfathomable crimes. on the one hand i think to myself, i think of that line misattributed to stalin, one death strategy amelia is as the

statistic, maybe that's why people can't get their heads around henry kissinger's deaths. americans are personal totally fine with understanding the brutality of lump blood mutant, or saddam hussein in iraq, but to think about what henry kissinger did in vietnam, cambodia and laos, and nick, you offered a new investigation this week for the intercept on how kissinger is responsible for even more cambodian civilian casualties than we already previously thought. you also write about how you confronted him a while back about the u.s. bombings of cambodia and laos, and he just sarcastically responded that he lacked your quote unquote, intelligence and moral quality. and he kind of walked off. he genuinely does not seem to give a down, does he nick? >> no, this has been a whole work of his entire career, this has been his m o. he has found ways to, court the press, he has beguiled the

press in many ways. and because of this, as david said, he has been able to commit astonishing crimes and still be fed, and still be home. >> yeah, you mentioned david, i think you mentioned in the past he once shared an elevator with henry kissinger at columbia university in 1982. you did not get a chance to talk to him the way nick try to talk to him. if you could have a redo, if you're in an elevator with 100-year-old henry kissinger what would you say to him? >> you know, that was a scruffy undergraduate taking courses one semester in columbia, i've actually thought about that moment alone ever since. i have come to realization that there is nothing i could say to him, there's nothing that nick or you could say to him that would make a difference. and the problem with henry kissinger is not just henry kissinger, it is as you have just noted, his acceptance, the fact that we can't have an honest a sense of him because it taints our view of america to munch. you want to scream, you want to

yell, as the great anthony bourdain about it, if he ever visited cambodia you'd want to come back and pummel henry kissinger. i think he's immovable, there was an interview he get with ted topple a few weeks ago where ted, i thought it was a fine interview. but he nudged a little bit on cambodia, and he just got in his high dungeon, and said you just don't know, we had to do this. anyone making an issue that they're just using a motion instead of thinking, kind of what he said to nick. so he is impenetrable, but he ultimately is not the problem. >> that's a very good point. and nick, david makes a good point, it's not just about kissinger is about nixon, ford, it's about our entire foreign policy. you are someone who read a lot about foreign policy, and about americas crimes abroad that we do not talk about enough. is that because, you know, this is convention in u.s. politics you can argue, and scream, and accuse each other the two parties of all sorts of things. but quote unquote, what's the line? it ends at the edge of the water. foreign policy is something

that's beyond partisan dispute. >> yeah, i think that's right. i think kissinger, specifically in cambodia, they demonstrated a consistent disregard for cambodian lives. a failure to detect, or protect civilians and post strike assessments, to investigate civilian harm allegations, and prevent such damage from reoccurring, or punish u.s. personnel who were accountable for injuries and death's. and these policies not only obscured the true toll of the conflict in cambodia, but it set the stage for civilian carnage in the u.s. war on terror. from that fantasy to iraq, into somalia. >> and david, do you think kissinger, you said immovable in terms of our image of him. do you think he will ever face a war crimes tribunal? on arrest warrant? any kind of legal

accountability? i did reach somewhere, david, that has to check with lawyers marie travels abroad because he's worried about being arrested in some foreign countries. >> organizations there are nations, spain comes to mind, where they have war crimes that if you have committed elsewhere, outside of the borders they still have the right to arrest you and prosecute. he does have to check while he travels, i think that's probably the only inconvenience of his massive crimes that he probably has to live with, because i don't think it weighs on his conscience. i think at this point if he is going to the stage without being prosecuted, without being held to account other than through journalism -- which is a minority position. he is going to keep on skating. secretary of state hillary clinton defended him, we saw the pictures of bill clinton, barack obama met with him. in some ways he is like dracula, he cannot be stopped. he will go on forever, and we

will continue to be frustrated. as i said in my piece, it is an insult to history as well as the hundreds of thousands who have died in part because of his decisions if we do not try to put it into a fuller context. >> yeah, i appreciate you trying to put it in the fuller context because i know you make the point about journalism and the minority position. given we're not going to get an arrest warrant, or international tribunal. given that he's having a happy 100th birthday with people still praising him. all we have is what you and i and iken others do which is reminding people of what happened, reminding people of the need for accountability, reminding people of the people who died on holding power to account. one thing that will always stick with me from the 2016 presidential campaign is when bernie sanders stood up in front of a live audience, i think it was in new york in when the presidential debates and said, i'm not friends with henry kissinger. i don't take foreign policy advice from henry kissinger.

he did awful things. if bernie sanders never did anything else in his life, i would appreciate doing that and presidential race. but we will have to leave it there. david coren, nick terse think you both for your time and reporting on this. don't go anywhere. tonight, there is a second hour of the mehdi hassan show coming up after a very quick break, we're all be interviewing democratic presidential candidate marion williamson. it'll be a lively discussion i suspect, you won't want to miss it, stay with us. h us ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy, long lasting relief in a scent-free, gentle mist. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

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