those horrific events are not lost to history. >> yeah, certainly so very, very important, now more than ever, particularly as we see a rise of anti-semitism and hate across much of the globe. national political correspondent for "axios," alex thompson. thank you so much for being with us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning -- you know what? it is not monday morning. it's tuesday. it's a holiday. "morning joe" starts right now. i do want to thank the president's team that he put together, very professional, very smart, very strong beliefs that are different than ours. i think at the end of the day, people can look together to be able to pass this in the house and the senate together, to sign it and send it to the president. >> house speaker kevin mccarthy expressing praise for white house officials in the wake of a debt deal. we'll have the latest on where support stands from members of

both paries as leaders try to secure their votes. plus, president biden and former president trump mark memorial day with very different messages. meanwhile, florida governor ron desantis makes a pitch to voters ahead of the first event of his presidential campaign. we'll show you what he said. also ahead, we are following a developing story out of moscow this morning. drones attacking residential areas for the first time since russia invaded ukraine. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 30th. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," johnson lemire. u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us. and pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. joe, on the debt ceiling, you said they'd get there, but how'd they finally do it? they had no choice. they got there. you know, we live in this world that's designed -- this

political world designed to promote discord, hatred, where our political opponents are our sworn enemy. i do know there are far too many people who want to set aside democratic elections. we saw it happen on january 6th. there is much to mourn about the direction that some have decided to take this country in. but you look, willie, and you see that you actually have, in joe biden and here kevin mccarthy, but you have a democratic president and republican senate and now house that have worked together in pretty historic ways over the past year and a half, getting bipartisan legislation. let's look at kevin mccarthy really quickly here. this is mccarthy, who many said for quite some time, were concerned he'd go sideways on

supporting freedom fighters in ukraine. we heard him shut down that russian reporter, said, get out of their country, stop killing their children. stop committing war crimes. here, you know, the nation's economy was on the line. you know, he behaved responsibly. biden behaved responsibly. they were grown-ups. again, we should worry about things we should worry about, but there are days we should wake up and say, you know what? things are getting done. it's not always quite as bleak and catastrophic as people who get paid a lot of money to say it is on, whether it's cable shows or online or in podcasts or in political speeches or in books. sometimes grown-ups are actually in charge in washington, d.c., and things get done. >> this is a serious moment that required seriousness from its politicians. so far anyway from the leadership, we've gotten that.

from the president. speaker mccarthy went out of his way to thank the president's team for their professionalism and how they conducted themselves during the negotiation. there are still votes to count here. they'll have to cobble it together, but they have to get to 218. it looks like they will, but, jonathan lemire, obviously, as joe said, the usual suspects are throwing their bombs and sending their tweets and everything else about kevin mccarthy having a band in the freedom caucus with this deal, saying this is the end of civilization, et cetera, et cetera, but it does look like -- i say this hesitantly because we don't know where it is headed in the next 24, 48 hours -- but they have to get to 218. >> vote tentatively slated for tomorrow. we're not sure when the senate will take it up, probably a day or two after that. whip operations in both parties feel pretty confident they'll get there. extremists on the right made it clear they want nothing to do with this, throwing bombs, press

conferences saying this is a disaster of a deal, a democratic blank check was among the rhetoric used. i believe turd sandwich was also thrown around. we have progressives on the left expressing concern, saying they don't like the bill either. the white house expected that would be the case. but they do feel like a major group of centrist democrats yesterday, nearly 100 of them, came out and said they like this bill. they'll support it. they feel they'll get there. it is a moment of bipartisanship. biden and mccarthy had no relationship going into this, but they've been able to work together. it is another moment where president biden who said, i'll work across the aisle even in this polarized environment, and he has pulled it off. >> senators, some republicans acting like they never negotiated in washington before, saying, i won't vote for this because i didn't get every single thing i wanted, going on podcasts and saying that. you know from being on the hill

several years, sometimes you take what you can get, give what you can get, and you make a deal to help the country pay its bills. >> exactly. i've been a back bencher. my hair has been on fire. yeah, the republic is falling if we do this, that or the other. but, you know, after being up there about six months, i turned to a friend of mine in the freshman class. it's funny, we keep saying the world is going to come to an end if this bill passes or that. we're still here, aren't we? at some point, they aren't going to believe us anymore. maybe, maybe we should stop throwing bombs. i have to say, lemire talked about throwing bombs, willie. >> uh-oh. >> i saw some bomb throwing last night. >> that's mean. the celtics could not put one in last night. you talk about being grown-ups and responsible and getting the job done, that would be the nuggets, willie. that would be the nuggets. >> yeah, the nuggets were waiting for this one. the celtics were on the doorstep of history.

they get what they wanted after being down 3-0 in the eastern conference finals. they even it at 3-3. they get a home game in boston, a game seven. absolutely nutty atmosphere. the crowd was bananas, waiting for them to do their thing, and they never did it. in fairness, lemire, clearly, tatum's ankle wasn't good. he rolled it in the first minute of the game. otherwise, how do you not show up for a game seven? they lost by 19 points last night. >> first, we'll start by giving credit to the miami heat. this is a smart, tough, well-coached team. losing three straight, blowing a 3-0 series lead, they could have collapsed last night. instead, they didn't. they played really well. it was the celtics who collapsed. yes, tatum was hurt in the game's first minute, definitely changed things. they also missed the first 11 three pointers, couldn't hit a shot all night. what was more upsetting as a celtics fan is that their defensive intensity also went away. they gave up easy shots to the heat, particularly in the second half. every time the celtics tried to

make a run, they couldn't do it. they missed a chance to make history. 2004 red sox in the building last night. >> yeah. >> didn't matter. the celtics really collapsed. i suspect real changes for the team next season. now, miami heat, denver nuggets. the heat, the second eighth seed to make the finals. >> you're waiting for it to swing. heat were in control in the first half. second half, boston will make a run. they never did, and the heat ran away from them to go to the nba finals. >> they kept making runs. in the third quarter, several times, you had the heat -- i'd say the nuggets. i'm already thinking about the finals. but, you know, the heat were up by 13, 14. celtics knocked it down to nine, eight, seven. that happened quite a few times. you said, okay, this is where the celtics are going to make their run. gene, they just never made their run. they never got there. now, we have a miami heat/denver

nuggets final. wondering, wondering just how many viewers. i think "succession" will have more viewers. >> so good. >> more than the nba final. >> this is probably not the final that the league wanted. i think the league would have preferred, say, boston/l.a. that would have been a final they would have loved. >> oh, my gosh, yeah. >> however, they didn't get it. because, you know, the celtics, i -- this is a frustrating team. that team has so much talent. they're so talented. >> yes. >> the dynamic duo of tatum and jaylen brown, i mean, they, at their best, at their finest, they remind me of jordan and pippen. i mean, they are really, really good, yet they don't play together very well. you know, and they played with no brain and no spirit for most of that game.

derek white was the most aggressive. he was the most, kind of, into the game. i just don't get that team, the celtics team, with all that talent. much more than the heat had. they actually -- you know, the heat lost three in a row, but that third game, the one that white won with that tip-in, the last 0.2 of a second, the heat actually almost won that game, right? they came back. >> yeah. >> right at the end, they had 'em. they just didn't box out white on that tip-in. >> yeah. >> so they actually had a bit of momentum coming into this game seven. >> yeah. >> the celtics, they had their home crowd in the garden on the parquet floor. i'm sorry, that was just pathetic. it was pathetic. >> exactly what katty kay had said. i mean, she called mika said, said, "they didn't box out white." >> she said, "pathetic."

>> we do need to -- before we move on, we'll quickly congratulate you on man city, once again, winning the premier league. >> okay. >> yeah. actually, i think next weekweek we'll see man city and man u at wembley. that's a secret, by the way. i'm getting tickets for my husband. i haven't told him yet, but that's what we're planning to do. what gene said, that was the smart take. >> what gene said. all right. let's get to president joe biden, who honored the country's fallen troops yesterday by visiting the tomb of the unknown soldier at arlington national cemetery. in his memorial day message, the president spoke about preserving the legacy of those who died to protect democracy, and his own personal experience with losing a child. >> tomorrowmarks eight years since we lost our son, beau. our losses are not the same.

he didn't perish in the battlefield. it was cancer that stole him from us a year after being deployed. it's like i can still hear him saying, "dad, it's my duty, dad. it's my duty." duty. that was the code my son lived by and all those you lost live by. today, we once again gather in this sacred place, at this solemn hour, to honor fallen heros. those who died so our nation might live. >> meanwhile, president biden's most likely 2024 opponent, donald trump, had a less reflective memorial day message. on his social media website, the former president compared himself, himself to the country's fallen heros, wishing

a happy memorial day to, quote, those in line of a very different but equally dangerous fire. stopping the threats of terrorists, misfits and lunatic thugs who are working feverishly from within to overturn and destroy our once great country. it's brutal, joe. i mean, i don't even know what to say. i guess it's a step up from what he said in the past about our fallen heros. >> i mean, what he said in the past, i mean, you look at "the atlantic" article in 2020. >> oh, my god. >> he basically called men and women who gave their all -- >> i can't. >> -- suckers. it's always been his attitude about it. he has contempt for those who would sacrifice for their country. willie, this is, again, we're not surprised by what donald trump says. i will say, i'm surprised there's still such a large number of americans, at least

telling pollsters that they'd still support this man. whether it's memorial's day, mother's day, the fourth of july, whatever it is, he tries to be as hateful and disrespectful as possible. again, i'm not -- you know, i'm not catastrophizing here. he just -- i was saying earlier, there were republicans who were grown-ups. most would never do something like this. yet, the person that runs the party right now is the most hateful, has been the most hateful, and even stains days like memorial day, where we should stay focused on those men and women who gave their all in battle and across the world so we could be free. >> yeah. >> he goes out of his way to say the worst thing possible on a day that for most americans is a solemn, heavy day, filled with gratitude for people who fought for our freedom in 1776 all the way forward to iraq and afghanistan, and people who lost

their lives since coming back from the war. that's what we think about. that's what most americans think about. but, katty, you know, when you look at the comments joe is talking about in "the atlantic" magazine, the post yesterday shouldn't be surprising. when you have donald trump saying to general john kelly on memorial day 2017, as general kelly was going to visit the grave of his son robert who was killed in afghanistan, donald trump saying, "i don't get it. what was in it for them?" looking at the headstones, "why would they serve in the military? why would they sacrifice?" he doesn't get it. he did call, and it was confirmed by many sources after "the atlantic" piece, soldiers who died in france, american soldiers, called them losers and suckers. he spoke about john mccain. we know how he feels about people who serve the country, veterans. he can give lip service to it, but we know how he feels. >> fox news, as well, confirming those commenting by president trump, too. i remember an interesting

conversation with somebody i know quite well, a general who had worked in the military, retired and who had been actually pretty conservative, pretty keen on president trump. it was when those comments came out that he really decided he'd had enough and that he felt disgusted by what he heard. that lack of support for u.s. troops just was something he couldn't countenance anymore. it made him change his mind. you wonder how many other people in senior positions throughout the military felt that. you also know the former president has quite a lot of support amongst military members. we know on january 6th, there were a higher proportion than the average of the population of former security and military members up on the hill that day. so, you know, it's mixed, the reaction amongst military personnel to president trump. partly, i think, the fact there are people who still support him in the military helps explain

the broader swath in the country. >> his chief opponent, ron desantis, is kicking off his tour. the florida governor calling it the great american comeback tour. he'll start today in iowa. yesterday on fox, desantis was asked for the rational for his campaign, why is he running? why should people take a vote for him over donald trump? here's what he said. >> why is right now the time for ron desantis to run for president? >> because everyone knows if i'm the nominee, i will beat biden and i will serve two terms. i will be able to destroy leftism in this country and leave woke ideology on the dust bin of history. >> there it is in a nutshell, joe. he says he can beat joe biden, suggesting donald trump can't. he'll serve two terms. donald trump can't, he's already served one. just on the issues, you know, the shining city on a hill, the mourning in america is woke

ideology. >> we're so far from ronald reagan. you know, america is a city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see. >> yeah. >> you know, a serious point here, too, because, well -- actually, let me play you this clip. this is when i just started thinking, you know, we used to have a football coach that would say, "you boys are majoring in minors. focus on the big things." this is what ron desantis is doing. he is majoring on the minors, on things that may get a small sliver of the population. it's not like reagan. reagan would say things that maybe 50% of americans agreed with, but he'd say it in a way that 90% of americans would go, "yeah, this guy is on to something." reagan was always reaching out, probably why he won 47 states,

and why donald trump keeps losing elections. ron desantis, for some weird reason, seems to be following that path. he was asked if he could win iowa. this is what he had to say. >> we obviously have a lot in common with iowa in terms of what florida has done and what they've done under governor kim reynolds. i think the groundswell of support has been really, really strong. you know, we're going to press the case. i mean, they'd mentioned there may be some differences with me and donald trump. i think those differences come down to my benefit in a place like iowa. for example, he's taken the side of disney in our fight down here in florida. i'm standing for parents. i'm standing for children. i think a multi-billion dollar company that's sexualizes children is not consistent with the values of florida or the values of a place like iowa. >> disney sexualizes. >> what happened? >> ron desantis decides he is going to launch his campaign by talking about how the magic kingdom sexualizes children.

>> yeah. >> this is something that, again, we've all grown up with disney. you and i, gene, when we were young, would see "the wonderful world of disney" every sunday night. it's continued through. it's not like things got crazy. my kids growing up, i've seen "the lion king," like, 87 times. "the little mermaid" and all these other shows. it hasn't radicalizely changed or shifted. what's happened, it's become a weird sort of cottage industry deal. maybe people get ratings doing this, maybe they make money, maybe people listen to podcasts by bashing disney. as someone that knows a little about florida, this doesn't even sell in florida. disney is loved. >> joe, he got married there. >> he got married there. >> i know. >> there's a happy place. >> the happiest place on earth, i think, is what all the

quarterbacks from the super bowl say. gene, my bigger point is, they emphasize these really small things that gin up a small part of the base. instead of being like reagan and looking over the horizon, "how do i unite americans and, in the process, win 49 states?" >> joe, you and i spent a lot of time in iowa. we both know, you know, you wobble down the street and ask voters, "what's on your mind? what are you thinking," republican voters? they say, "that disney, i hate disney. i wish somebody would go after disney." no, it's ridiculous. this is the centerpiece? i can't believe he mentions that as part of his argument, why he should be the republican nominee, let alone the president of the united states. again, i don't -- this is ahab like, this pursuit of disney.

it can't be a winning issue for him, i think. all he's got, apparently, is i'm against woke ideology. yeah, that's going to -- >> what is that? >> -- go well with the hard core base but, boy, that is a tough sell if you want to be president of the united states. because you've got a few more things to worry about other than pronouns, you know? you have a lot of other stuff to do. >> yeah. i mean, jonathan lemire, the guy, the guy can talk. he can express himself. he's intelligent, yet, he always, again, goes down to the lowest common denominator. i'm not really sure, but, you know, this anti-woke crusade. tim scott did something i think pretty smart in his announcement. he never talked about woke. he talked about things he disagreed with, that some people would say, "oh, that's woke."

but all this talk, at this point, it is ground noise. florida is where woke goes to die. this is, like, donald trump and being fat elvis, repeating everything he did in 2016. you know, he's like elvis in 1977. he is repeating the same act over and over again. if you want to be new and you want to be different and you want to take your party in a winning direction, don't go to the lowest common denominator. again, it just doesn't make sense. >> or to paraphrase the criticism for rudy giuliani during his campaign, desantis is down for woke. that's it. that's all it is. he is talking about this small piece of the electorate, the fox news primary. yeah, maybe right now he'll score some points in florida, score points among die hard conservatives, but even disney is not perceived among

republicans as this unambiguous win. a lot of republicans are like, this is a major business, a pe beloved american institution. you just lost a lot of jobs for your state because of this. he's opened himself up to those attacks, too. it reinforces concerns that the donor class started to have about desantis. look, he raised a lot of money in his first day, no doubt, but that was supposed to be one of his advantages. he'd be the palatable republican to those tired of donald trump. he's really boxed himself in in a lot of extreme positions. look, he hits the road today. it begins, joe and mika. he makes his first stop out in iowa. he'll hit a couple of the early battleground states, primary states, and we will see what retail politician he proves to be. to this point, the reviews have been unfavorable. he's had trouble connecting with voters, donors, supporters. he has to show he has the ability to be charismatic but also to fashion an argument that separates himself for trump, who right now has definitely got the

better of their matchup. >> joe, to your point about majoring in minors, most americans, the vast majority of americans hear him say disney is sexualizing children, and they go, what is he even talking about? what does that even mean? most are going out to see disney's "little mermaid" for $150 million it made at the box office, whatever it was this weekend. he is running to be president of the united states. if he is on a debate stage with joe biden and starts talking about disney sexualizing young children, does that turn on voters in the suburbs of atlanta and philadelphia and milwaukee? is that something they even understand? we'll see. i get it, this is a primary. he is trying to win a primary first, but he has a lot of stuff, including the six-week abortion ban he has to unwind if he is the nominee. that'll be difficult to do. >> what did we hear repeatedly in the summer of 2022? what we heard was the biggest

issues are inflation, jobs, the southern border. you go down the list. gas prices. go down the list. these issues, these economic issues, and republicans said democrats won't talk about them. then they go into the 2022 election, and they're talking about these issues, again, that a small number of americans care about. they get absolutely walloped at the polls in '22. mika, listen, i don't agree with the conventional wisdom about ron desantis. i think, right now, he is even money. i know a lot of people would laugh at that. i think ron desantis right now is even money to be the next republican nominee for president. i do think that if he learns how to get out of his way, and we're still, you know, nine months off -- >> yeah. >> -- from elections, he could

beat donald trump because he is so much more competent than donald trump. he's supposed to come together the baggage donald trump has. as he said in his press conference, he doesn't know a whole lot about paying off porn stars, so he can't answer those type of questions. there could be a great contrast. here's the deal, if he runs as trump light, he loses. if he runs as a mainstream republican who is for balanced budgets, a strong military and small "c" conservatism, he wins going away. and he is a formidable opponent for biden in the fall. saying disney sexualizes kids is not going to get you from here to there. that just gets donald trump renominated. >> before you get to the cartoon stuff, the disney stuff, i mean,

just stop right there at a six-week abortion ban. i'm not sure how that works at all. >> that's the problem. i'm so glad you reminded me of that. you are right. that is going to be tough in the general election for him to get through. still ahead on "morning joe," gunfire erupts along a beach boardwalk in florida. what we're learning this morning about a memorial day shooting that injured nine people. plus, former gop congresswoman liz cheney goes after republicans during a commencement speech at her alma mater. we'll show her new comments. also this morning, wanted in russia. we'll take a look at why moscow issued an arrest warrant for lindsey graham. plus, a new piece on masculinity by david french that got a response from republican senator josh hawley. you'll be surprised at what it

was. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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last week may have intended to seize power and harm the president if necessary. this is according to a memo filed by federal prosecutors. they're looking to keep the suspect behind bars with no condition digs s suspect behind bars with no condition while he awaits trial. the man had a journal including a speech he planned to give once he took over the government. they also say he was a nazi supporter. the suspect's defense has not yet filed a response, and it is unclear if he even has legal counsel. the federal public defenders office did not respond to a request for comment. the suspect is due back in federal court today. my god. >> yeah, well, you know, anti-semitism on the rise. again, all the hate speech that's been mainstreamed, i'm afraid we're going to see more of this. just like we see more shootings

by the day. going to the beach with your family, memorial day night ends in tragedy. >> yeah. i mean, kind of a grim weekend, right, to have another reminder of the weaknesses in america at the moment. you have the shootings. everybody kind of assuming that, and polls showing us this, an increasing fear of gun violence in the country. you might go to the beach or you might go to a mall or you might go to your synagogue or your church, and the chances are there is a chance that you could be shot. it shouldn't be that way. >> no doubt about it. mika, again, it's so important. this is a choice that politicians are making, and it's a choice that voters are making by what politicians they put into office. this is going to be -- we're going to see, as we saw with abortion, 10-year-old girls fleeing the state after getting raped, and other politicians

talking about young girls being raped by their uncles, being a perfect reason why we have to have forced births sanctioned by the state. we saw what an impact that had. a social issue that had helped republicans in a lot of states, now without any doubt, it's a huge drag on republican candidates, especially in swing areas. same thing is happening with guns. the same thing is going to happen with guns. not supporting the second amendment, gun rights, which i have my entire life, my entire public life, but the extremism. supporting, again, gun, the proliferation of guns on the street without a universal background check that 90% of americans support. red flag laws that keep guns out of the hands of dangerous, crazy people, which 85% of americans support. and, of course, the massive

proliferation of military style weapons, assault military style weapons that 18-year-old kids can buy on their birthday and then go shoot up schools. again, americans have had enough of this. they support the second amendment. they do not support the radicalism of these gun -- of gun laws. just the killing of americans, whether they're at schools, whether they're at country music concerts, whether they're at churches, synagogues, wherever they are. americans are tired of it and, as katty said, the numbers though they're scared and fed up. that is going to have an impact on american politics. coming up on "morning joe," the latest out of ukraine as russia launches a third attack on kyiv in just 24 hours, damaging buildings and vehicles. this as the kremlin reports new drone strikes in moscow.

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live picture from the top of our building at 30 rockefeller center. another beautiful morning in new york city. it's 6:41 here on the east coast. some new images out of kyiv this morning show the latest barrage of drones launched by russia into ukraine's capital city. at least 20 iranian-made drones were shot down within kyiv's air space in russia's third attack on the city in less than 24 hours. at least one person was killed in the morning's attack was a high-rise building caught fire. ukraine reports 29 of 31 drones were shot down around the country, mostly in the capital region.

meanwhile, russia also reported being struck by drones this morning. moscow's mayor said on social media, a drone attack caused, quote, insignificant damage to several buildings. "the associated press" reports it's the second attack after moscow said ukraine earlier this month. richard haass, good morning. if this is accurate, and we have to take big grains of salt when moscow reports something, if there were attacks inside the borders of russia from ukraine or a ukrainian-backed entity, that would mean what? >> that would mean it's a really bad idea to do it. it's not going to help ukraine militarily. doesn't change anything on the battlefield. it seems to justify, almost tit for tat, the unwarranted russian attacks on ukrainian and civilian areas. it feeds vladimir putin's narrative, that russia is the victim. russia is facing all of nato and, somehow, everything it's

doing is warranted. whoever is behind this, assuming it's some ukrainian-related entity, if not the national government, really, really counterproductive. that said, i'd like to see the russians produce some pieces of the drones, so we know for sure where it is coming from. >> "the new york times" reported a few days ago that u.s. officials do believe the kremlin attack was carried out by a pro-ukrainian force, though not, they believe, ordered from kyiv itself. let's talk about this moment in the war, though, where we have drone strikes in kyiv, this incident in moscow. are these the two sides trying to shape the conflict ahead of that ukrainian counteroffensive that we've been waiting for for quite some time, and is believed to be more or less imminent? >> i see this stuff as more political and psychological, but none of this affects the battlefield. something of a distraction from the war itself. history suggests the random civilian attacks or bombings don't do anything but hearten

the resolve of the people. that's the reporting we're seeing out of ukraine. this makes no sense militarily. i actually don't think it helps any of the parties. i'll be honest with you. >> yeah, it just doesn't seem to make sense. tell me your thoughts about -- you see the offensive coming. where are we right now? what does it look like as far as the spring offensive and the possibility of some sort of negotiations on the other side of that offensive? >> clearly, some quote, unquote, offense is going to happen, joe. i don't think any of us has a great understanding of what exactly the dimensions of it are, what the specifics of it are. let's assume there's some kind of major military push in the east. i doubt against crimea early on. some greater use of tanks potentially, even aircraft. i don't see it fundamentally changing the battlefield. i might be in a minority here. for the next six months, this is

fought out. i don't think there's diplomacy. i think the real diplomacy starts november or so. we've had two fighting seasons, don't have much to show for it in terms of regaining territory. what now? do we want a third fighting season? it can also make a difference, joe, and it feeds into something you've talked about here a lot, which is what's happening with republican politics. if vladimir putin says, look, i'm not winning on the battlefield, but depending upon what happens in 2024 in america, i could have someone in the white house that doesn't support this war, it increases his inclination to hold out for at least one more fighting season, to see what politics can bring him if his troops can't deliver it for him. >> exactly. if donald trump does well moving through the 2024 election, he has every reason to hold on because he's got somebody in the white house, he could have someone in the white house january 2025, who wants him to win the war.

there's no doubt there's going to be -- he will sit and wait and see there. let me ask you, richard, about "the new york times" article i saw over the weekend that talked about the use of a.i. and, basically, scraping up all the data they could from the russian public. telegram messages, chat rooms, online traffic. "the times" says there's reporting that, actually, russians are starting to turn against the war, not dramatically, but a growing frustration, especially with the amount of russians who have been killed. >> two reactions to that. one is the use of a.i. obviously, this will be something that will help authoritarian regimes, joe, in terms of greater visibility into their own population, just something to think about. in terms of russians turning against the war, i wouldn't be surprised if there were a smoldering resentment about the

war, given the human loss and the rest. i just don't see where there's anywhere for it to go. politically, it seems to me, putin is in pretty safe position. there could be a tipping effect one day, that when it changes, it changes. if i were advising our side, i would simply say, do not assume there's going to be any break on the russian side. assume putin is in control, has the narrative going his way. most russians buy into it, that it is russia against nato. lots of russians are sympathetic to the claims in crimea and so fort. i just wouldn't depend on any real weakening in russian resolve. would love to be wrong there, but i'd be really surprised. >> richard, let's talk about the gesturing that keeps going on in china toward the united states now. they're saying they don't want to meet with secretary of defense austin. xi was going to meet with blinken before the spy balloon was shot down. the gesturing, it seems, just

continues with china. what are they trying to prove? how do we break the ice on this? >> again, they were truly unhappy or angry, whatever word you want to use, about the blinken cancellation of the trip. they're still not over that. they like the idea we seem to want to meet with them more than they meet with us. the meetings that keep going on, joe, are on the economic side. the secretary of commerce has met with her counterpart. the chinese seem to be indicating they're comfortable with meetings that deal with trade. not so much else. it also doesn't help that the defense minister that secretary austin would like to meet with is under american sanctions. seems to me, if we want that meeting, we want to remove those sanctions. but this is dangerous. what worries me about this, if there are some kind of an incident, be it over taiwan, the south china sea, what have you,

right now, what we don't have are really good, confident mechanism that is the united states and china could do crisis communications. i don't know if you remember, going back to the first months of george w. bush's presidency, you had the american reconnaissance aircraft collide into a chinese plane. over a week or ten days went by when we couldn't find anyone in china who was home to talk to. we don't want to have that problem now, given how much more advanced and capable china is militarily. you know, i understand the administration's frustration, this is dangerous. we probably reached the point where knocking on the door doesn't help. it makes us look too anxious for the meetings. the chinese will agree when they're ready to agree. let's go to turkey, richard. president erdogan was re-elected. president biden congratulated him, but the most enthusiastic congratulations came from putin and viktor orban. what does this mean for turkey and the authoritarian coalition,

if you will? >> this tells us where the center of turkey is. it's not a liberal western country, quite cultural and politically, nationalistic, quite resentful. look, there's no silver lining to this, willie. he is a, like it or not, this is a liberal democracy. you don't want to be a journalist or kurdish in erdogan's turkey. i think you'll have continued -- turkey will go its own way, forge its own relationships with russia, and it will be very difficult. they'll be willing to use the pressure of immigrants to get from europe what it wants. turkey is technically an ally but it is not a partner. that's what we have to understand. so long as erdogan is in charge, we've got this problem within nato. by the way, nato's treaty has no mechanism for expelling a country. we have to live with this. it's a real problem given turkey's strategic importance in the middle east, in europe,

vis-a-vis russia. erdogan, he plays his own game. it's not going help us. there's really not a lot we can do about it. our final stop and the most consequential is in the bronx. the yankees are playing well, richard, but six games out. judge hit home runs last night. >> 17 on the year. >> yankees are playing well, but we're looking up at the race and orioles. >> if i may quote joe scarborough, the well-known expert on yankees baseball, it's still may. >> yes. >> yankees pick up two games a month. guess who is in the playoffs, guess who is in the world series? we have to pace ours. look, compared to two weeks ago, it's looking a lot better in the bronx, willie. looking a lot better. >> somehow, judge just keeps rolling, following that season. you're excited about how judge is playing. >> yeah, thrilled for him, great. >> we can pick on him over the last -- >> no, we're going to let him go. >> we hit that already, richard.

>> there's a lot of pain here over last night's game, joe. >> you know, though, i have to say, jonathan, i do like richard. he is very optimistic about the yankees picking up two here, picking up two there. you know, gene could say, if the nationals just pick up four games every two weeks, they'll be back in the contention. >> exactly. >> between now and september. we can all say that. jonathan lemire, though, i'm telling you, i'm overly optimistic about this red sox team. i'll be the first to admit it. but we have a starting rotation that has some hope. paxton, he got shelved the other night, but he's had good outings. sale is looking at his best. you have whitlock back. we had a good outing. houk is capable of good outings. you know, hope springs eternal, but this is still a fun red sox

team to watch. >> it is, i agree with that. they've defied expectations. expectations this year were modest, to be clear, but they've been pretty good. it's the a.l. east. we saw the standings, what a beast of a division that is. sox with a handful of games above .500 but 9 1/2 games out. they got kluber out of the pitching rotation. reinforcements for the bullpen. they're starting to hit. devers could use, you know, a hot streak. he's cooled off the last week or two. they just went out west, always tough, and did fine. they come home to fenway starting tonight. they're in the mix. they are okay. we try to compete with those powerhouse trillion dollar teams ahead of us. >> that's the truth. what mika and katty were talking about last night while they were watching the celtics game and facetiming each other about it, they said that the yankees, because the a.l. east is so strong, and this was a great point, katty, yankees will be in

first place in every division in baseball, except the a.l. east, where they're in third place. it's a strong division. mika, like me, you were very impressed. >> i was. >> katty knows the standings. >> we were live texting about it. >> yeah. >> pretty late into the night. all right. richard haass, thank you very much. whatever it takes to end this. still ahead on "morning joe," how donald trump's heated rhetoric against law enforcement is again infiltrating traditional conservative groups. "morning joe" is coming right back. th 30g of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uh... here i'll take that. -everyone: woo hoo! ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein, one gram of sugar. enter the nourishing moments giveaway for a chance to win $10,000. ♪

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it'll take three, four days to get through the house of representatives, and it could take a week if republicans use all the procedural tactics at their disposal. that, of course, would result in a default on american -- >> too long. >> yeah, something we'd never recover from. but, listen, part of the reason i was reluctant to get involved in these negotiations is that i think there's a whole big swath of the republican party that actually wants this to default. you're already seeing the right-wing -- >> in the house or senate, too? >> i think mostly in the house, but some in the senate. i think mostly in the house. you're starting to see the freedom caucus already rallying the troops against this deal. my worry is that there may still not be enough republicans in the house to get this deal done. >> connecticut senator chris murphy telling msnbc's jen psaki that he wouldn't put it past house republicans to force a default. meanwhile, liz cheney is calling out her former republican colleagues. we'll have those comments. donald trump claimed he was

the law and order president, but he has consistently criticized law enforcement as they investigate him on a number of issues and potential crimes. we'll show you the latest example of a conservative group repeating his incendiary ramblings. >> really, it's unbelievable. >> scary. >> it's unbelievable, willie, when these people run around, talking about republicans, talking about defunding the fbi. we're going to show a clip of somebody that runs a thinktank that used to be an important thinktank in washington, now it's just radical. but defunding the fbi, radical republicans are for that, you know? you know who else is for that? domestic terrorists, isis, foreign enemies, drug lords, rooked politicians, cyber

criminals, nuclear terrorists, biological terrorists, chemical weapons terrorists. you can go down the list. gang leaders, gang members. willie, it's just -- it's crazy that you actually have leaders in a major party that want to defund the most important law enforcement operation in america, simply, simply because they don't like some of the investigations they've had against crooked politicians. >> this is all to run interference for donald trump, the man who has brought them here in many ways, the man who cost them so many elections the last five, six years. they don't like the fbi looking into donald trump, therefore, it shouldn't exist or its funding should be taken away, and the military is too woke. it's kind of disorienting, joe, to have grown up in the -- around the republican party that we've known for so many

generations, to hear republicans being the ones to say, go after the fbi and the military. but they're doing it. last month, former president trump called on republicans in congress to defund the president of justice and the fbi, accusing democrats of weaponizing law enforcement. now, here's what the president of the conservative heritage foundation said. >> if you step back and lock at the fbi from a policy, ideas point of view, it is clear it's become politicly weaponized. ask the pro-life activist being hounded this weekend probably by two fbi agents as we sit here. ask a reasonable conservative, and you know -- and i mean this as a policy objective -- it needs to be started over from scratch and rebuilt. this is not a law enforcement agency. it's a political weapon. >> that's just a lie. he is lying to you. >> wow. >> he is lying to you in a way that helps leaders of isis. he is lying to you in ways that

make you less safe. >> worse than i thought. >> he is lying to you in a way that provides comfort to cyber criminals. it provides comfort to domestic terrorists. it provides comfort to people who are gang members, to drug dealers, drug smugglers, drug lords. i mean, the things the fbi does day in and day out, that they've done day in and day out for decades, and these clowns want to defund them and make -- it'll bring anarchy to america because donald trump has been investigated by the fbi. here's the thing, donald trump would not be president of the united states in 2017 through 2021 if not for the fbi.

if not for an fbi investigation of hillary clinton that went on for years, with leaks to every news agency, including our own, about her emails, all leaks from the fbi, from the new york office of the fbi that hated hillary clinton, that kept the wind in the sails of donald trump's presidential campaign, and then ten days before, the letter from the fbi that reopened the investigation, that even donald trump will tell you, or at least said then, gave his campaign second life. but for the fbi, donald trump would never have been president. the fbi was openly hostile to hillary clinton in 2016. again, you look at all of the leaks. you look at what happened the last ten days of the campaign.

this isn't even a close call, and, yet, there's all of this whining by people on the right. did you ever hear hillary clinton talk about defunding the fbi? did you ever hear hillary clinton talking about how we needed to defund the doj? again, this is -- this is a party that has become so radical, that some of these people are a real danger to america, america's safety, american values. they attack, mika, the united states military. our military is stronger now. you ask people not just in america but across the world. they will tell you that relative to the rest of the world, america's military might is more powerful now than any time since 1945. if you don't believe them and you don't believe people in america who say that, maybe you

can ask the family of the hundreds of russians who rushed our troops in syria. that lasted three minutes. ended very badly for them. because america can now send 2,500 troops anywhere in the world and completely change -- >> yeah. >> -- completely change the outlook for that country and bring security to it. when you take them out, as we did in afghanistan, again, a mistake i believe, chaos suddenly reigns. those 2,500 troops kept the taliban at bay. you take them out, the taliban takes over the country in a week. same thing with syria. when our troops are in syria -- and i hate to go on and on about this, but i get so angry at republicans who keep trashing our men and women in uniform. >> yeah. >> for political reasons, saying they're too woke. really?

mika, you know, i don't even want to mention their names, republicans have said they wish american troops were more like russian troops, manly like russian troops. >> oh, my gosh. >> really? >> so you want them dead? >> is that what you want? you're saying you want them to be so incompetent. >> it's so extreme and -- >> it's bizarre, and it's dangerous. to say you want to defund the fbi, to say you want to defund the doj, to attack our men and women in uniform, it's just really un-american. jonathan lemire, katty kay and eugene robinson are still with us. joining the conversation, we have former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill joins us this hour. good to have you. >> claire, i'd love to get you in on this. you have people, and you know this, if donald trump gets his way and all of his little trumpers that are following him,

like that guy that runs what used to be what i think was a good organization, you would, donald trump would be playing right into the hands of domestic terrorists, isis, other foreign enemies, drug dealers, drug lords, gang members, gang leaders, cyber criminals. i mean, the list goes on and on and on. but they attack the fbi, attack the doj, and they attack the united states armed forces. i just -- i've never seen anything like it before. >> well, the weird thing is, this guy says, "let's destroy it and start over." does he have any idea what that would look like? does he have any comprehension of what would happen to this country in terms of our security? the federal government is involved in law enforcement in

cooperative fashion with state and local police all across the country. would all of those task force and those joint efforts just disappear overnight? what would fill in that vacuum? you think we've got shootings on beaches now. if all the bad guys know the fbi is going to take a time-out for, what, a decade, to start over? it's so stupid. by the way, joe -- >> it is stupid. >> -- who funds the heritage foundation? i mean, last time i looked, it was started by the coors family. does the family want to do away with the most important things in the world? what about the koch brothers? important minds in the country funded the heritage foundation for decades. are they on board with this?

have they gotten in the clown car with all of crazy town, saying that because the fbi is doing their job, enforcing law against donald trump, that now is the time to decimate this law enforcement agency? i just can't imagine this is going to go over well with the vast majority of the heritage foundation donors. >> yeah, i don't know who the donors are right now. i just know, though, mika, defunding the fbi, people that say that and say, "oh, let's start it over again," i mean, it reminds me of i think the most important line in all the seasons of "succession." >> what's that? oh, "you're not serious," right? >> "i love you all, but you are just not serious people." >> not serious people, no. >> they know this. they know this is a ruse. they can do two things at once. we want to defund the fbi, yeah

, but we're going to start it all over again. we're going to rebuild. >> really? why was that not questioned? >> where were these people? where were these people when the fbi's new york office was leaking a different story to "the new york times" and nbc and to every other news agency every day, about either hillary's emails or the clinton foundation or something else that there might be an investigation on? where were they? >> right. >> where were they ten days out? where were they two days out? again, they support funding law enforcement unless law enforcement actually does their job, like on january 6th. suddenly, they hate law enforcement. suddenly, they will beat law enforcement to a pulp. >> yeah. >> with the same american flag that u.s. troops have carried

proudly into battle for over 200 years. that's grotesque. it's un-american. everybody out there knows it's un-american. i just think pack to those signs, mika, that we saw in the late '60s, '70s. if you hate law enforcement, hate the united states military, you hate government, and you really think people are going to go out to iowa and gun down people, for, like, the irs, if you hate america that much, why don't you take some of the same medicine you were dishing out in the late '60s and '70s to people that were trashing america and american institutions, and just leave the country. america, love it or leave it. do you remember those bumper stickers? >> i do. >> america, love it or leave it. if you hate our armed forces so much, if you hate -- like, if you believe, like donald trump, that america is the greatest

threat to western civilization, when we actually are the bulwark against authoritarianism. >> he's a -- >> we're the bulwark against other counties who would invade others to take power. we are the city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see. even all our flaws, and we have a lot of them. even with our flaws, mika, as we move towards it being a more perfect union, you actually have donald trump and people around donald trump that are constantly trashing the united states of america. i got to tell you, after this memorial day weekend, i'm just sick of 'em. i'm sick of 'em trashing america. >> i've met people along the way, and the past few months, who are sick of all the trouble he caused. they find him exhausting. to your point, joe, he talks about, you know, the parts of america he hates, the carnage, the fbi, whatever, but he creates the trouble that he's

talking about. he creates the revolution against america, the attempted coup, the insurrection, the behavior. he creates the behavior that causes what he is talking about, which makes it, i think, if it is possible, even more insid insidious. again, it's a dangerous cult. >> yeah. >> let's put that aside for -- >> i think that's why you had people supporting him in '16 and '20, that are exhausted and hoping ron desantis steps into the void. >> just anyone. >> yeah. all right. the house rules committee will meet today to discuss advancing the debt ceiling legislation to a full vote in the house. it comes as house conservatives are criticizing the bill, calling it, quote, fiscal irresponsibility act and not a win for republicans. on the senate side, republicans lindsey graham and mike lee have

vowed to impede the bill's passage over their own concerns. texas senator ted cruz called the legislation a, quote, blank check for democrats. however, the chair of the main street republicans caucus, congressman dusty johnson of south dakota, says he believes the bill will pass in the end. >> given the enormity of the economic projected calamity, you feel confident today this will get to president biden's desk? >> i am absolutely confident. i've talked to dozens of members. the strongest argument against this thing is that it isn't perfect. i don't know, gang, welcome to humanity, right? any negotiation, nobody gets everything they want. we cannot let perfect be the enemy of the good. i guarantee you, the majority of the house is going to agree. >> jonathan lemire, i've seen "you've got mail" so many times that i was made fun of for

watching it so much. tearing up at the end when tom hanks comes around with the dog. sorry, you have to tear up. >> totally. >> i've seen this movie before. this is -- the consequences of not passing this are so devastating, they always come together at the end. i know there's some people saying they're going to do everything, but what are you hearing in washington? what are you hearing on the hill? is this going to, in fact, pass this week? >> it likely will, yes. the white house and both republican leadership and, of course, those in the democratic side doing their own counts. democrats feel very good. there's a group of the new democrat coalition, we'll speak to one of their members in a moment, they've signalled 100 members, doing good there. progressives signalled unhappiness. there are certainly some of the right very much so, as well, saying they'll stand in front of this. they'll try to prevent it. but the leadership for the republican side, speaker mccarthy, signalled, look, he pitched this as a good deal for

them. president biden has pitched it as a solid deal for democrats. we just heard there from the republican congressman who said, look, this is a bipartisan agreement. no one gets everything they want. that's not how negotiations work. yes, there will be some late nights ahead this week. there will be a little twists and turns and some politics here, the extremes of both sides need to play to their respective bases, but there is a consensus, guys, that right now, this is on track to pass. it'll be close, but they're confident they'll get it done. >> i think they'll probably figure it out. again, kevin mccarthy and joe biden got together, willie, and they're grown-ups. they did the heavy lifting, the hard work, and they've come up with a bill. surprise, surprise, this is how washington used to work, that the extremes on both sides hate and the vast majority of people in the middle don't like at all, but they figure out how to bring it together. that's how legislation passes. it's how it's passed.

you never get everything that you want. because i'm a nerd, this is one of the reasons why -- one of the main reasons i ran, actually. i was concerned about -- get this, i was concerned about the national debt when i ran. it was at $4 trillion. it's at $31 trillion now. the debt under donald trump just exploded, even pre-pandemic, just exploded. here are some of the things that will happen. this will limit discretionary spending in 2025. budget increases next year, in line with what joe biden actually asked for. funding will be closer to this year's level in 2024. republicans wanted ten years of spending caps. ends up it is going to be two years of spending caps, then it'll switch to being spending targets. it's going to reduce federal spending by $55 billion next year. according to the cbo, another

$81 billion in 2025. the total savings, if spending then returned to its regular levels, it's end up saving about $860 billion. i'll be the first to say that over a decade, they need to save a hell of a lot more than that. we have a $31 trillion debt, and it is going in the wrong direction. the irs, the callback is going to eat into tax collection agency efforts to cut down on rich tax cheats, says "the new york times." all in all, again, there are things in here, willie, people on both sides don't like, but it's a compromise. that's actually how you legislate. that's how grown-ups legislate. >> shouldn't be exceptional. this is what happens in washington, serious people get together and get a deal to avoid the economy from cratering. that's what happened. in these day, we have to point out when the right thing happens. let's bring in the chair of the new democrat coalition, annie

kuster of new hampshire. good to have you on this morning. do you share the confidence we've heard the last few minutes around the table here, and by the way from your republican colleagues who are more center right, that there will be the votes by the end of this week before that x-date, to get this bill through and to get the debt ceiling raised? >> well, good morning, willie. i was certainly glad to hear my colleague dusty johnson say the republicans will put up their votes votes. on the chair of the democratic coalition, we're almost 100 center left democrat. we are working hard, talking to colleagues now, but seeing a lot of support. you characterized it exactly right. it's not perfect, and everybody has something in there that they want to dive into a little bit deeper. they've got some issues with. but, look, at the end of the day, you've got to step up and do the right thing. you know, you can either be part of the solution or part of the problem. our members are choosing to be part of the solution. >> congresswoman, what do you

say to some of the more progressive members of your own caucus, the democrats who say the president gave away too much here, we shouldn't have work requirements, kind of ticking down the list? what do you tell them to earn their votes here? >> well, one thing that hasn't been talked about very much is this was a budget negotiation that now means we won't have a government shutdown in september. i've been through three or four government shutdowns in the decade that i've been here, and that is extremely disruptive to real people's real lives. we should put that on the chalk board as things that we got. we protected social security. we protected medicare. we protected medicaid. we want to make sure we do bring the deficits down. i come from a part of the country where every tax dollar should be spent wisely or not at all. let's make sure we are taking care of business, helping the most vulnerable amongst us, protecting our homeland and our

security, protecting our veterans. that was a big goal for us. we did get some changes in the negotiation at the end on that that i'm proud of. i want to make sure this gets to the finish line. i'll be encouraging them to step up and do the right thing. >> congresswoman, claire mccaskill here. pardon me while i get into the weeds of beau country. >> sure. >> it's my understanding mccarthy promised 150 republican votes. i'd love you to confirm that. secondly, this thing swirling around the rules committee, he put some very extreme voices on the rules committee, and there seems to be a disagreement. the three very extreme voices there, some of them are saying that he promised, when he got their votes for speaker, that all of the republicans would have to unanimously support something for it to come out of the rules committee. on the other hand, there are others saying that there only has to be seven of the nine

republicans agree. could you shed some light on that? did he make a deal to get the speakership that's going to get in the way here? >> well, i was an observer, you might recall, going through 15 votes while he got to his speakership. i wasn't for they to those conversations. but the republicans i've talked to said they didn't hear that conversation either. we're a majority institution, even on the rules committee. if we get a majority vote, we'll be able to get that out of committee. so you're pointing to an internal disagreement, and i think today is a critical day. you know, the next 48 hours here are going to be very, very important for our country, for our economy. people are flying in from all over the country today. the rules committee starts at 2:00 p.m., and then we have our suspension votes to make sure our -- checking off our attendance tonight, and then tomorrow we'll start with the bill on the floor and go from

there. >> chair of the new democrat coalition, democratic congresswoman annie kuster of new hampshire, thank you very much for being on this morning. we'll be watching. and still ahead on "morning joe," a live report from iowa. as 2024 white house hopeful ron desantis kicks off his presidential campaign with an event there tonight. plus, how republican senator lindsey graham is responding to a new warrant for his arrest issued by russia. and data shows more and more high school graduates are foregoing college, taking blue collar jobs instead. what it says about the state of the economy and the cost of higher education. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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beautiful chopper shot, chopper 4, the home of the new york mets. i mean, you know, a really good baseball team, one i'm pulling for this year. new york, how beautiful. i'm telling ya, new york, i mean, i get made fun of for talking about that, i love new york this time of year. >> it's really beautiful. >> it really is. >> everyone gets so happy, and they get outside, the restaurants are open. >> may, june. >> yes. it's a delightful time. >> i know willie feels the same way about that. >> especially getting up at 4:00 in the morning and driving into new york. >> i do like, actually, when you wake up at 4:30, 4:45, and it actually is starting to get light, right? makes it easier. welcome back, everyone. here's this -- >> if we keep going east there, we might even actually go over citi field. anyway, go ahead. >> we could. more high school graduates are

foregoing college and opting for blue collar jobs according to the labor department. college enrollment for recent high school graduates dropped to 62% last year. in 2019, enrollment was a little over 66%. "the wall street journal" reports fewer people want to go to college because of the high cost of tuition, uneven returns from getting a degree, and the hot job market. a recent poll found most americans do not think getting a four-year degree is worth the cost. joining us now, "wall street journal" reporter behind that story, harriet tori. also with us, chief economist at zip recruiter, julia pollock. good to have you both with us. harriet, i'll start with you. what are the jobs that most college graduates are taking, the blue collar jobs opposed to going -- high school graduates i mean, opposed to going to college, and do you have any

differentiation between numbers of women and men making choices like this? >> yeah, so i think what we're seeing is just far more people doing apprenticeships. traditionally, we think of carpenters, plumbers, mechanic and so on. more industries are offering apprenticeships now. we see them in cyber technology, banking and insurance. there are a range of different industries where you can go and get an apprenticeship, then, you know, it's just an easier route to a job. you also quote, unquote, graduate without the same levels of debt as if you go to college. we do see a big difference in men and women enrolling in college. it is interesting. the rate of women enrolling in college has been higher for quite a long time now, and it is ten percentage points higher than for men. some economists say this is due to women getting greater financial returns on a college degree. it's definitely interesting. we've seen a really stark drop in the number of people enrolling in college from high

school over the past, you know, few years. the rate peaked in 2009, and it's dropped significantly since the pandemic, as well. really, what we're seeing is, i think as the cost of college has risen astronomically, people are making the calculation, is it worth me doing a four-year degree and getting into enormous amounts of debt when i have this other option, do an apprenticeship, get on the job training. a lot of the apprenticeship also involves classes at community colleges. you're getting hands-on and classroom-based training. when you finish your apprenticeship, usually, it's a pipeline to hiring. you end up, you know, often working at a company or working with people you might have trained with. for many people, just this calculation is paying off, to do an apprenticeship rather than college. >> julia, this is gene robinson. my question is whether this is a rational decision that these

young people are making, from the point of view of employers, from the point of view of the people who are thinking about what our workforce is going to look like in the next five to ten years. >> well, pandemic policies really shook up the labor market, and low-wage workers in this economy have seen the largest wage gains. 5% after adjusting for inflation. the top earners have actually seen their wages shrink. so amid that wage compression, it does make sense for many workers not to go to college anymore. employers also have found it's so difficult to find workers in this economy, that they have been prepared to add benefits and pay and make all kinds of non-monetary improvements, as well, to jobs at the low end of the wage spectrum. looking ahead, the technological

changes ahead, like generative a.i., are most likely to disrupt the jobs college graduateshigh- likely to be done by software. whereas, the skill trades, plumbing, electricians, mechanics, those jobs are relatively safe from a.i. >> claire, that last point is so important because it seems we're always -- we're looking at a labor market the way things were post war. things are dramatically changing. you know, right now in 2023, we have a massive shortage of skilled workers. i think this actually presents a great opportunity. you know, community colleges that are teaching skills, skilled workers in technical jobs, whether it's carpenters, plumbers, auto technicians, they just aren't out there anymore, right?

gen-zs has run away from it. millenials ran away from it. there is an extraordinary opportunity to make more money doing that than a lot of jobs you would get with a four-year degree. >> yeah, you're seeing -- it hasn't happened quickly enough, but you are seeing community colleges actually partner with businesses in the community to determine, what are the jobs that are needed? they actually go out and recruit students and train them for those jobs, in cooperation with and, frankly, with the full support of the company that wants to employ them. what's happened here, joe, is higher education got fat and happy. capitalism is working right now. people are voting with their feet. if higher education doesn't adjust, if they don't look at the crazy amount of costs that are actually being put upon kids today, the debt load that they have to take to become a doctor

or a lawyer or really, frankly, even just get a four-year degree, they're going to be left behind by these trade schools, but these community colleges, because people aren't going to go into debt for the rest of their lives for a job that pays marginally higher than a welder or plumber. >> right away. >> harriet, as you know from reporting this story, that's not an exaggeration. a lot of people spend their entire adult lives paying off the loans and the debt they incurred by going to college for four years. they start to wonder, was the investment worth the return i'm getting on it over the course of my career? i'm curious, julia touched on this, what your sense of the pandemic is and how that impacted people who said, wait a minute, i'm paying in some cases, i don't know, $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 a year to go to college to take online classes, not to, you know, enjoy the benefits that come with college, or i don't need to do this going forward. i can sort of educate myself in something that interests me.

or, as we were pointing out, get into a field like green technology, where the jobs will be down the road, without spending all this money on a college. >> yeah, i think -- >> well, the pandemic was -- >> -- the pandemic was a disrupter to education across the board. after that, we saw people delayed going to college, then just realized that if they went and got an apprenticeship, they could get a job, good job. wages have been rising faster at the lower end of the wage spectrum. they wouldn't have to incur enormous sums of debt at the end of college graduation. one of the people i spoke to for my story, a 21-year-old guy, he was always interested in working with cars. he had the opportunity. his whole life, he thought he'd go into a four-year college degree and would have to work through college in order to pay for that. when he was coming through high school, there was a program, a mentorship program. he got interested in learning about becoming a light mechanic.

ended up doing an apprenticeship. he said it was a no-brainer decision. he always wanted to work with cars, wanted to do this apprenticeship program, offering on the job training and going to community college, and had a two-year work commitment after that. for him, it just made so much more sense to do the apprenticeship than go to college and accumulate an enormous amount of debt. who knows what the job market would have been like for him upon graduation. >> julia, what is your sense of the trend here? is this going to continue, or are universities, colleges aware of this problem and doing things to get people back into their ranks? >> well, college tuition and fees have risen in cost more than any other good or service in the u.s. economy, other than hospital services. so, clearly, there's a problem. the cost needs to come way down. there are some colleges that have shown us it is possible, like purdue, which has capped tuition for 12 consecutive years. so there is a way to bring down cost and make a college degree worth it again.

>> all right. "wall street journal" reporter harriet tori and chief economist at zip recruiter, julia pollock, thank you, both, very much for bringing this conversation to the table here. coming up on "morning joe," former fbi director james comey is here. he joins the table with a new project inspired by his career in law enforcement. that's next on "morning joe." tod more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. he snores like an angry rhino foyou've never heardw, an angry rhino

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beautiful live picture at the white house, 7:34 in the morning there. over the past few months, several republican lawmakers followed the lead of former president donald trump in calling for defunding law enforcement agencies, including the fbi. those calls were fueled by last month's release of the durham report, which faulted the bureau for its handling of the 2016 investigations into possible collusion with the trump

campaign and russia, but stopped short of providing any new evidence that anyone in the government had broken the law. joining us now, former fbi director james comey, the author of the new crime novel "central park west." director comey, good morning. we'll talk about your new career as a novelist in a moment. i'm curious, we had the head of the heritage foundation in the last couple of days, following the lead of many republican lawmakers, saying the fbi, the organization you once led, needs to be defunded. what is your reaction to that? >> it's just a continuing series of attacks on the rule of law. they're taking a flame thro thr to the fbi and doj because it's a threat. >> is it real threat or rhetoric? >> it undermines law enforcement, which matters. >> as for the durham report, 300 pages, four years investigating the investigators. one of the things that did come out of it was procedures,

regular fbi procedures were ignored, that steps were miss missed along the way in this investigation. director wray said, yeah, we acknowledged that a couple years ago, and we've changed all that. those changes are already in place. do you acknowledge, perhaps, some mistakes were made along the way? >> oh, definitely. they were found four years ago by the inspector general. there is nothing new in this new document. >> what were some of the mistakes from your point of view? >> the fbi didn't communicate clearly the status of certain sources. they didn't double check certain information before putting it in a court application for a foreign intelligence wiretap, and others. >> do you believe now, as politicians are calling for the defunding of the fbi, that's been corrected and the procedures are in place to avoid those mistakes in the future? >> i think so. there's always going to be mistakes. it doesn't mean the fbi isn't competent, honest and independent. >> with distance from your time there with that investigation and everything in the 2016

election, are there things you wish you had done differently? >> plenty. i mean, plenty of small things. in the main, i think the fbi did it in the right way during a very difficult time in 2016. >> the attacks have obviously been unrelenting from former president trump, who is very much back on the political scene again. he is, at least for the moment, the favorite to be the republican nominee.choed by oth his party, as well. what is your sense, as you talk to your former colleagues in the bureau, the impact on their ability to get the job done? >> people have internalized the lies they've been told. after the search of mar-a-lago, there are lies about the fbi acting as a thug army. that hurts because the fbi needs to knock on doors and get people's help. it needs to be able to stand up in a courtroom and say, i saw this thing, and not be seen as a political actor. they are not political actors, but the lies haven a impact. >> the fbi, of course, was exercising a legal search warrant at mar-a-lago. so if donald trump were

re-elected, as someone who worked for and alongside the man, what is your sense of the potential danger of his being in the white house again, if you see it as a danger? >> i think he poses a near existential threat to the rule of law. he will do everything he can in a new term to try to tear down the institutions that he sees as threats and to dismantle them and the people who occupy them, the apolitical people who accu by them. so there is a lot on the ballot in 2024 if he is a candidate, but the rule of law, in my view, is at the op of the list. >> director comey, katty kay is here with a question for you. >> yeah, director, it must seem like the world has gone full circle to you. you've had your fair share of criticism from democrats for your role in the 2016 election, releasing the letter about hillary clinton and her email server. now, it is people on the right, the president of the heritage foundation, calling for the fbi to be defunded. do you just dismiss it all as political noise, or do you think

that the fbi has now become an institution that is attacked from both left and right and is not viable, just because so many people lost confidence in it? >> no, i very much disagree. the fbi is central to the rule of law in america. its problem and challenge in a polarized time is it has no friends in high places. we spent 50 years as a country trying to keep the fbi away from politicians. in the first 50 years, the director, hoover, cultivated politicians on both sides of the aisle. when he had a problem, he had friends in high places. we worked for half a century to make sure that isn't the case. when we're polarized, it leaves the fbi in a spot that is very, very difficult. it will be fine because its people are high quality and the work is the way the american people want it to be done. >> gene robinson. >> director comey, there's one question that is raised by durham and others, which also

gets raised on the left, the functioning of the foreign intelligence court. and whether that is a process. the whole process is really in keeping with the way our government is supposed to work. they reinterpret laws in ways we can't understand, that sort of thing. on reflection, now that you're out of the bureau, do you have any view of how that court works and its value and what we should do about it? >> i think it works very well. it's incredibly valuable because there's work our government has to do against spies and terrorists that has to be done in secret, so the spies and the terrorists don't know is doing them, and so the foreign intelligence court brings together all three branches of government to check and balance each other to try and do the right thing in the right way when you have to do it in secret. >> director, katty mentioned the

letter before the 2016 election. you wrote about that in your previous book and said i would do some things differently and have said it makes you nauseous the idea you had a hand in electing donald trump. now with distance from it, would you again have made that -- written that letter to congress that was made public and polling shows swayed voters. >> i can't bring a magic wand not to be involved at all? i'd have to do the same thing again. i've thought about it a thousand times. there were doors. they both led to hell. i understand why people see it differently and think we should have gone in the other door. even with hindsight given what we knew then i don't think we had a choice. >> no regrets? >> plenty of regrets but no regrets the way the decision was made and my judgment hasn't changed it was the least terrible option that we faced. >> all right. let's talk about the current book called "central park west," a crime novel. your debut as a novelist. what sent you to the world of

novels? >> nudging from a nonfiction editor who kept referring to parts of my writing as scenes. dude, they're not scenes, they're my life. but you can write narrative. you should try this and so i finally decided to give it a try. it was easier to think about the farther i got from government service and i did it in partnership with my wife, a lot of my family was involved and i found it harder than nonfiction but addictive and a ton of fun so this is what i want to do when i grow up. i don't want to work as a lawyer. want to write. >> tell us about the story. >> i was a mob prosecutor in the 1980s and '90s in new york so this is a story about the mob but the protagonist is a woman who is a federal prosecutor in manhattan inspired by my oldest daughter who when i was writing this was on her feet prosecuting

gigi ghislaine maxwell. i wrote it from current day experience. the protagonist is inspired in particular by my oldest daughter. >> writing fiction is different than what you've written previously. did you enjoy it? >> i enjoyed it in part because my partnership with my wife patrice was essential to this. she's the idea person. she has an ability to think up cool stories that i don't so we would sit over coffee and debate until we got to a great story then she'd send me off and i would write and she would suggest edits, suggest comments and we would iterate and our marriage survived that, in fact, it was a ton of fun and i think produced something that people will enjoy. >> the new crime novel is "central park west" from now novelist james comey. >> great to be with you all. we'll show you lindsey

graham's response to russia putting out a warrant for his arrest and we'll go live to des moines, iowa, ahead of the first presidential campaign event for ron desantis. what's that going to look like. "morning joe" is coming right back. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin

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with a story we were talking about, michigan seeing a higher drop in college enrollment. a new report finds overall enrollment dropped more than 2% from last spring. the national average is 1%, illinois saw an even larger decline in enrollment at nearly 3%. and finally new jersey "the south jersey times" has a front page feature on an uptick in vehicle thefts linked to viral videos on tiktok. officials say the videos teach people how to break into kias and hyundais especially exploiting a security flaw in some models. attorneys general from 17 states are now asking federal regulators to issue a mandatory recall, they say the automaker's software fixes are not doing enough to prevent car thefts. those companies are also facing class action and civil lawsuits from consumers and it is exactly

the top of the hour, the third hour of "morning joe" on this tuesday, jonathan lemire and claire mccaskill is still with us along with eugene robinson. ron desantis kicks off his campaign in iowa. in an interview yesterday, he was asked why the people should vote for him and whether he can win iowa. these were his responses. >> why is right now the time for ron desantis to run for president? >> because everyone knows if i'm the nominee, i will beat biden and i will serve two terms and i will be able to destroy leftism in this country and leave woke ideology on the dust bin of history. we obviously have a lot in common with iowa in terms of what florida has done and what they've done under governor kim reynolds and think the groundswell of support is really

strong and we'll press the case. they mentioned there may be differences with me and donald trump and i think that those differences go down to my benefit in iowa. he's taken the side of disney in our fight down here in florida. i'm standing for parents and children and i think a multibillion dollar company that sexualizes children is not consistent with the values of florida or the values of a place like iowa. >> that sexualizes children. joining us nbc news correspondent dasha burns. what do we expect to see out of governor desantis aside from that platform we heard there? >> reporter: well, willie, look, this is, what, the third time i'm talking to you from iowa about a desantis event, but this is the first time that the governor is an actual presidential candidate and that does change things and put the pressure on, because, look, lately before he actually announced the line was, look, we're not in the race yet.

that's why, you know, you're seeing that big gap in polls. that's why we're not yet going directly after trump. there were a lot of excuses placed on the fact that he is not yet in the race. now he's officially in so he's going to be in des moines tonight at an event tomorrow across four other cities in iowa on this 12-city tour he's doing of critical early states, iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, and here is what i'm watching for across these early visits, number one, how is he going to handle trump? he needs to very quickly now find his footing and figure out how he's going to walk that line of whether he's going to directly go after him and potentially risk, you know, losing some voters or angering some voters that like both or if he's going to play that subtle line of jabs without directly naming him. number two, he's going to have to do the retail politics that are so critical in these early states and retail politics is something people have been

keptal of. whether he can win over voters on the ground and, number three, the really big one and uphill battle for this campaign is creating a permission structure for voters who are wary of trump, think he has too much baggage and want to find an alternative but aren't yet sure. they'll have to make a case for those voters to be able to jump ship from trump, look in the water, jump in and tell their friends, hey, the water is fine, come on in and that is going to be a really big challenge for them if they can do that, then they might have a shot and they'll have to start building that permission structure early on here, willie. >> which as you say will be interesting to see whether he goes directly at donald trump, the man he has to catch. dasha, thanks so much. jonathan lemire, this is obviously a guy who has not been willing to go at donald trump in any direct way.

the implication in that answer on fox is i can beat joe biden. the implication donald trump will lose to joe biden. that seems to be his only criticism. >> at a certain point he will have to take on trump directly. there will have to be actual attacks. the desantis camp want prosecutors to do the work for them thinking criminal indictments might come down will be what brings down trump and they won't have to do it themselves. that's their theory for the moment. the polls suggest he's well behind trump in the republican primary field. and i do think even though he's saddled with some really extreme positions, the abortion one among them, it seems to be electability is his case and can point to battleground state polls to suggest he fares better but i was struck by something else that i think we'll hear more of, the idea he can serve two terms. that sounds simple but donald trump can't. trump can only serve four years, a vote for desantis he's trying

to save could give you eight. what do you think desantis needs to do now that finally he's out on the campaign trail as an official candidate? >> well, other than a personality transplant, i'm not sure that there's something that is immediately that comes to mind. i mean, seriously, when you are talking directly to your primary voters on a fox program in the morning and you say the reason you're running is because disney sexualizes children, i think you need to go back to the drawing board because that's not inspirational, it's just stupid. my grandson had a serious health issue and got out of school last week and guess where i'm taking him today? we're going to disney world. and that's because he and his siblings really want to go to disney. his little sister wants to see the princesses and the idea that somehow he's going to become president on the backs of disney, fighting disney is dumb. you know what he's going to do,

if trump gets indicted, if that's his theory of the case, then that's not going to hurt trump with his primary voters. it may hurt trump with voters in november, but it's not going to hurt trump with the base, the trump base, and so for him to get trump voters, he's going to have to do something other than rely on a criminal indictment because as we've seen so far, the trouble that trump is having with the law just calcifies it. i disagree with my very bright and politically astute friend joe scarborough here. i don't give desantis even money. i think when he gets out there, he will get exposed as somebody who really nobody wants to spend a lot of time with. >> so interesting and i also have some questions about trump voters and exactly where they are with donald trump. i mean, obviously there is -- there are the very, very die-hard who will be with him till the end but there are a lot

of others who i wonder if they're just overloaded with donald trump and all that he brings to the table. let's bring in politics bureau chief, jonathan martin. in your new piece for politico magazine, you ask, if the anti-trump gop forces are starting to implode? and you write, for months high-level republican lawmakers, donors and strategists eager to block trump have described, in separate conversations with me, an end game to the presidential primary. when it becomes clear in the early state and national polling who is consolidating support the most influential figures with ties to the lags candidates will stage a sort of political intervention and tell them, it's time to quit and rally to the strongest alternative to trump. such a plot always struck me as

a bit far-fetched yet, the appetite among elite republicans to move past trump was and is so immense, i thought there could be at least a do the right thing effort. yet, as spring turns to summer this vision seems more fantasy than strategy. in fact, if trump does emerge as the gop standard-bearer next year, we will look back on this week to grasp why just like in 2016 he was able to take advantage of a divided opposition. jonathan, i think you're right. i mean, look, we saw him come down the escalators and there were those who were like, don't discount this person. you can never discount donald trump but he is looking -- >> right. >> -- at several indictments possibly, one some would say probably, and that one -- i'm talking about the documents one

is pretty damn serious. >> right. well, thanks for having me. look, i think the challenge today is more clear than ever when it comes to donald trump and it's less donald trump than it is the opposition which is not unified around a single candidate. yes, it's still early. yes, it's not even yet june. there's plenty of time, and there are doubts about donald trump and the party rank and file and his viability in a general election. but we've seen the movie before, mika, we know how he got the nomination and it is hard to get politicians to put the party over themselves and to drop out and cede the nomination or at least the kind of baton to try to challenge trump to somebody else. that's really the issue here. how do you consolidate at the end of this year to two or three-person feel and narrow this down because we know in the era of super pacs that every one

of these candidates is not going to want to drop out, going to want to keep going and try to give it the absolute best shot they have until they withdraw and back somebody else. and then how do you prevent trump guys from cutting a deal with some of these lagging candidates in which he says, you stay in till i tell you to get out, keep carving out the opposition and then, you know, i'll pay you off with some kind of reward when the time comes for you to drop out of the race and i get the nomination, so, you know, there's a number of factors that make this difficult to get coalescence within the field. >> jonathan, as you say and you know, they welcome all these newcomers to the fray. >> oh, boy, yeah. >> rose petals at the feet of tim scott and nikki haley when they got into the race, ace sha hutchison, come on in and the anti-trump vote so my question to you, though, why has the

anti-trump message at least so far talking about what ron desantis might do in iowa been so meek, if you're really running against the guy, i understand his base is strong but if you really want to beat him don't you have to go at him a little harder than any of these candidates have? >> yeah. well, you just touched on what may actually be the biggest challenge within the republican primary field to dethrone trump and that is, they almost have to confront him in ways that are not direct and the reason for that and the reason that there's this trepidation about taking him on head-on is because they fear that if they do that, their voters will either recoil or ignore their message because for six, seven years their voters have absorbed the attacks against trump, you know, mostly from democrats and largely they're inert to those so these republicans, they say, we've got

to make a case on electability against him. we have to get to his right. to stand there and say donald trump is a lying demagogue who would shred the constitution just doesn't work with their voters. you know, there's an old saying, willie, go to war with the army. you have to have the army you want. this is the challenge with republicans, it's the voters, they're having to accommodate, you know, an electorate that not only is conservative but that largely does not want to hear frontal attacks on donald trump so you have to be creative. >> mika, the point about the growing field, maggie haberman says chris christie is starting a new super pac expected to get in the race in the next couple of weeks. >> amy walter has a new piece entitled "can republicans hope to outrun trump in 2024 house races"? she writes in part this, one way to look at the potential impact of a trump-led gop ticket is to

compare gop down-ballot performance in key swing districts to trump's showing in those same districts in the three election cycles where he's either been on the ballot or in the white house. to hold the house, republicans are going to need to beat democrats in districts where trump will likely lose. in 2016 when trump was a novelty, 23 republican candidates won districts trump lost. four years later only nine republicans were able to do the same thing. in 2022, democrats effectively branded the gop as the party of maga and trump helping them to pick up a senate seat and hold down their losses in the house. this is why many republicans are correctly worried that trump on the top of the ticket could risk their majority. and i couldn't -- i wouldn't disagree with that, gene.

i wonder are we all watching the same movie? >> yeah, i think we're watching the sequel which is really kind of like the original. so, you know, my question is, everybody can see this, right? everybody can see -- >> that's why i'm asking? >> those results that amy came out with and so -- my question to jonathan, who are these republicans who are going to strategize this and somehow make this happen? who is the republican establishment now? >> no, it's a fair question, gene. there's no question about it. it's a weakened force because of what happened in the last seven years and trump's effective takeover of the party but there is still a traditional, you know, party establishment, governors, former governors, senators, donors, strategists who desperately want to move on

from trump who want to find a vessel that, you know, they can use to move on from trump and i think that's the frustration is there was some hope desantis isn't ideal but he is the best bet to move on and now is that vessel taking on water? is there going to have to be a reassessment of -- that's why i thought tim scott's entry was notable in part because he had the blessing of john thune, card carrying member of the republican establishment. i thought thunberg's presence sent a signal that scott is okay with the republican establishment but if that's the case, again, then you risk going forward to '24, fracturing the vote once more and giving trump a lane to win the nomination with less than a majority because he's running against, you know, a divided field so the question is, at the end of this year start of next year will these candidates hear enough from donors and, yes, some party

officials and feel pressure to get out of the race so that one person can take on trump? look, i think that's a big ask, especially in a year which doesn't look kindly on smoke-filled rooms, but the message is going to be, gene, if you want to beat trump, if you want to consolidate and stop him now, you got to get out now and you got to rally behind candidate x who will be the strongest alternative and see if that carries the day. >> all right, politics bureau chief for politico, jonathan martin, thank i very much for being on. we appreciate it. and turning back to capitol hill where the house rules committee will meet today over the debt ceiling agreement. the bill will need to advance out of this committee before it can be brought to the floor for a full house vote. joining us director of the national economic council, leal

brainard. i guess the threat of catastrophic default is off the table, possibly potentially looks like. what does each side get out of this? >> look, i think it's a good deal. it's really a win for all americans. it makes sure that the large increase in employment gains will be protected, 12.6 million jobs, it makes sure that historic investments that have been secured in legislation in the last two years in the industries of the future in clean energy and climate will be protected and protects our seniors and the important gains made for our veterans so i think everybody got something, nobody got everything. >> what about the potential for an economic recovery to continue wording off a recession, how do the numbers look?

>> i think this is the best path to make sure that the historic gains, 12.6 million jobs will be preserved, will continue to see strong employment, continued investing in america, and a strong resilient u.s. economy. this deal really locks that down for the next two years. >> a lot of progressive democrats have voiced some concerns, some unhappiness with the deal, not entirely unexpected, of course, but some are saying they won't vote for this and point in particular to some of the work requirements attached to those who are going to receive federal aid as a particular troubling sign. what is your message to them, to democrats who feel like the white house didn't get enough out of this deal? >> yeah, so the president has been reaching out to members. i certainly have spoken to a lot of members who have said to me that they appreciate that the president was fighting for their

values, and are there areas where the president didn't get everything? yes, but he said from the outset he would not accept a deal that put medicaid at risk. this deal takes medicaid completely off the table. he said he wouldn't accept a deal that would put vulnerable children at risk. this deal does that and on the area of food assistance, while there was some movement in terms of additional years of having work requirements, we have a really strong set of exemptions that will now protect many americans who were not previously exempt from those work requirements so on that we think that it will have no effect on people's food security. >> director of the national economic council, lael brainard,

thank you very much for being on and claire mccaskill, thank you as well for being on. still ahead on "morning joe," the very different memorial day messaging from president biden and then from former president trump. plus, the latest from ukraine amid a new wave of missile strikes targeting kyiv. coming up in our fourth hour, 2023 tony award nominee, ben platt joins us to discuss the impact his show "parade" is having on broadway and beyond. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we thought we'd try electric unicycles. whoa! careful, babe! saving was definitely easier. hey babe, i think i got it! it's actually... whooooa! ok, show-off! help! oh!

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let's get to president joe biden who honored the country's fallen troops yesterday by visiting the tomb of the unknown soldier at arlington national cemetery. in his memorial day message, the president spoke about preserving the legacy of those who died to

protect democracy and his own personal experience with losing a child. >> tomorrow marks eight years since we lost our son beau. our losses are not the same. he didn't perish on the battlefield. it was cancer that stole him a year after being deployed. i can still hear him saying, dad, it's my duty, dad. it's my duty, duty. that was the code my son lived by and all those you lost lived by. today, we once again gather in this sacred place at this solemn hour to honor fallen heroes. those who died so our nation might live. >> meanwhile, president biden's most likely 2024 opponent,

donald trump, had a less reflective memorial day message on his social media website, the former president compared himself, himself to the country's fallen heroes wishing a happy memorial day to, quote, those in line of a very different but equally dangerous fire, stopping the threats of terrorists, misfits and lunatic thugs who are working feverishly from within to overturn and destroy our once great country. brutal, joe. i mean, i don't even know what to say. i guess it's a step up from what he said in the past about our fallen heros. >> what he said in the past, i mean, you look at "the atlantic" article where he basically called men and women who gave their all suckers and that's

always been his altitude about it. he has contempt for those who would sacrifice for their country and, willie, again, we're not surprised by what donald trump says. i will say, i'm surprised there's still such a large number of americans at least telling pollsters they would still support this man who, again, whether it's memorial day, whether it's mother's day, whether it's the fourth of july, whatever it is, he tries to be as hateful and disrespectful as possible and, again, i'm not -- i'm saying there were republicans grown-ups and most would never do something like this, yet the person who runs the party is the most hateful, has been the most hateful and even stains days like memorial day when we should stay focused on the men and women who gave their all in battle and across the world so we could be free. >> yeah, he goes out of his way to say the worst thing possible

on a day that for a lot of us and i would argue for most americans is a solemn heavy day filled with gratitude from people who fought for our freedom in 1776 all the way forward to iraq and afghanistan and people who have lost their lives since coming back from the war, that's what we think about. that's what most americans think about, but katty, when you look at the comments joe is talking about in "the atlantic" magazine the post yesterday shouldn't be surprising when you have donald trump saying to general john kelly on memorial day 2017 as general kelly was going to visit the grave of his son, robert, who was killed in afghanistan, donald trump saying to general kelly, i don't get it. what was in it for them? looking at all those headstones, why would they serve in the military? why would they sacrifice? he doesn't get it and did call and it was confirmed by many sources after that "atlantic" piece soldiers who died in france, american soldiers losers and suckers and know what he said about john mccain and has

shown us how he feels. he can give lip service to it but we know how he really feels. >> yeah, interesting now that you got fox news as well confirming those comments by president trump too. i remember having an interesting conversation with somebody i know quite well, a general who worked in the military retired who had been pretty conservative, pretty keen on president trump and it was when those comments came out that he really decided he had had enough and he felt disgusted by what he heard and that lack of support for u.s. troops just was something he couldn't countenance anymore and made him change his mind and you wonder how many other people in senior positions throughout the military felt that but you also know that the former president has quite a lot of support amongst military members. we know that on january the 6th there were a higher proportion than the average population of former security and military members up on the hill that day,

so, you know, it's mixed, the reaction amongst military personnel to the -- to president trump and partly i think the fact that there are people who still support him in the military helps to explain the broadest swath of his support across the country. >> one of the next guests, former house majority leader dick gephardt joins us to weigh in on the debt ceiling debate and more. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." for copd, ask your doctor about breztri. breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vison changes, or eye pain occur.

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all in stable condition. that's remarkable. we'll go live to the scene later in the show. the man accused of crashing a box truck into barriers near the white house last week may have intended to seize power and harm the president if necessary. this is according to a memo filed by federal prosecutors there looking to keep the suspect behind bars with no conditions while he awaits trial. the man had a journal that included a coup speech he planned to give once he took over the government. they also say he was a nazi supporter. the suspect's defense has not yet filed a response and it's unclear if he even has legal counsel. the federal public defender's office did not respond to a request for comment. the suspect is due back in

federal court today. my god. >> well, you know, anti-semitism on the rise and all the hate speech has been mainstreamed and afraid we'll see more of this like we see more shootings by the day, even going to the beach with your family, memorial day, the night ends in tragedy. >> yeah, i mean, kind of a grim weekend, right, to have another reminder of weaknesses in america. shootings and everybody now kind of assuming that and polls showing us this an increasing fear of gun violence, you might go to the beach or a mall or you might go to your synagogue or your church and the chances are there is a chance you could be shot. it shouldn't be that way. >> yeah, no doubt about it. but, mika, again, it's so important, this is a choice that politicians are making and it's a choice that voters are making

by what politicians they put into office. this is going to be -- we'll see just as we've seen with abortion, 10-year-old girls fleeing the state after getting raped and other politicians talking about young girls being raped by their uncles, being the perfect reason why we have to have forced births sanctioned by the state. we saw what an impact that had, a social issue that had helped republicans in a lot of states now without any doubt it's just a huge drag on republican candidates, especially in swing areas, same thing is happening with guns, the same thing is going to happen with guns, not supporting the second amendment, gun rights which i have my entire life, my entire public life, but the extremism, supporting, again, supporting just guns, the proliferation of guns on the street without a universal background check that

90% of americans support, red flag laws that keep guns out of the hands of dangerous, crazy people, which 80%, 85% of americans support. and, of course, the massive proliferation of military style weapons, assault military style assault weapons that 18-year-old kids can buy on their birthday and go shoot up schools. we've, again, americans have had enough of this. >> yeah. >> they support the second amendment, they do not support the radicalism of these gun -- of gun laws and just the killing of americans whether they're at schools, whether they're at country music concerts, in churches, synagogues, wherever they are, americans are tire the of it and as katty said, the numbers show they're scared and fed up. that is going to have an impact on american politics.

>> coming up on "morning joe" the latest out of ukraine as russia launches a third attack on kyiv in just 24 hours damaging buildings and vehicles. this as the kremlin reports new drone strikes in moscow. we'll be right back. the subway series is elevating your favorite subs. why mess with the sweet onion teriyaki, chuck? man, this aint messin', it's perfectin'! with marinated chicken and double cheese. sweet and savory... ...kinda like you and me, chuck. bye, peyton. try the refreshed favorites at subway today. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on.

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new images show the latest barrage of drones launched by russia into ukraine's capital city. at least 20 iranian made drones were shot down within kyiv's airspace in russia's third attack on the city in less than

24 hours. at least one person was killed when a high-rise caught fire. ukraine reports 29 out of 31 drones were shot down around the country. mostly in that capital region. meanwhile, russia also reported being struck by drones this morning. moscow's mayor said on social media a drone attack caused, quote, insignificant damage to several buildings. the associated press reports it is the second attack on moscow itself after russia claimed ukraine sent drones at the kremlin earlier this month. joining us now president of the council on foreign relations richard haass. good morning. so if this is accurate and we always have to take big grains of salt when moscow reports something, if there were drone attacks inside moscow, inside the borders of russia, from ukraine or some ukrainian-backed entity, that would mean what? >> that would mean it's a really bad idea to do it. it's not going to help ukraine militarily. doesn't change anything on the

battlefield and justifies almost tit for tat the unwarranted russian attacks on ukrainian civilian areas. it feeds vladimir putin's narrative that russia is the victim, russia is, you know, facing all of nato and somehow everything it's doing is warranted. so, whoever is behind it, assuming it's some ukraine-related entity if not the national government really, really count tierproductive. that said i like to see the russians produce some of the pieces of these drones so we know for sure where it's coming from. >> we should note "the new york times" reported u.s. officials do believe that kremlin attack was carried out by a pro-ukrainian force though not they believe ordered from kyiv itself. let's talk about this moment in the war where we have drone strikes. are these the two sides trying to shape the conflict a little bit ahead of that ukrainian counteroffensive we've been waiting for for quite sometime believed to be more or less imminent. >> this is more political and

psychological but none affects the battlefield. so it's something of a distraction from the war itself. also, history suggests this kind of random swivelian attack or bombing doesn't do anything really but harden the resolve of the people and that's the kind of reporting we're seeing out of ukraine so this makes no sense militarily. i actually don't think it helps any of the parties, i'll be honest with you. >> yeah, it just doesn't seem to make sense. so, tell me your thoughts about you see the offensive coming. where are we right now? what does it look like as far as the spring offensive and a possibility of some sort of negotiations on the other side of that offensive? >> well, clearly some sort of a quote, unquote offensive will happen. i don't think any of us has a great understanding of what the di mentions of it are, what the specifics of it are but let's assume there's some kind of major military push in the east.

i doubt against crimea early on, some greater use of tanks potentially even aircraft, i don't see it fundamentally changing the battlefield. i might be in the minority here so i think for the next six months it's fought out and don't think there is any diplomacy. the real conversation starts in november, okay, we've had two fighting seasons, don't have all that much to show for it in terms of regaining territory. what now? do we want a third fighting season? you know what can make a difference? what's happening with republican politics. if vladimir putin is looking at all this and says, look, i'm not winning on the battlefield but depending what happens in 2024 in america i could have someone in the white house who doesn't support this war, it increases his inclination to hold out for at least through one more fighting season to see what politics can bring if his troops can't deliver for him. >> well, exactly. if donald trump does well,

moving through the 2024 election, he has every reason to hold on because he's got somebody in the white house he could have somebody in the white house in january 2025 who wants him to win the war. so there's no doubt there's going to be -- he will sit, wait and see there. let me ask you, richard, about "the new york times" article i saw over the weekend that talked about the use of ai and basically scraping up all the data he could from the russian public telegram messages, chat rooms, online traffic, and "the times" says there's reporting that actually russians are starting to turn against the war, not dramatically but a growing sense of frustration, especially with the amount of russians who have been killed. >> well, two reactions, one is the use of ai. you know, obviously this is something that will help authorize taron regimes, joe, in

terms of greater visibility into their own population, just something to think about. in terms of russians turning against the war i wouldn't be surprised if there were a smoldering resentment about the war given the human loss and the rest, i just don't see where there's anywhere for it to go. politically it seems to be putin in a safe position. there could be a tipping effect one day that when it changes it changes but if i were advising our side, i would simply say do not in any way assume that there's going to be any break on the russian side, assume that putin is in control, has the narrative going his way, most russians buy into it that it's russia against nato. lots of russians are sympathetic with the claims in crimea and so forth. i wouldn't depend on any real weakening in russian resolve. >> let's talk about the jet stream that keeps going on in

china towards the united states now. they're saying they don't want to meet with secretary of defense austin. obviously xi was going to meet with blinken before. but the jet stream just continues with china. what are they trying to prove? how do we break the ice on this? >> again, they were truly unhappy or angry about the blinken cancellation of the trip, so they're still not over that. they like the idea that we seem to want to meet with them more than they want to meet with us. the secretary of commerce has met with her counterpart. so the chinese seem to be indicating they're comfortable with meetings that deal with trade, but not so much else. plus, it doesn't help that the defense minute administer that secretary austin would like to meet with is under american sanctions. it would seem to me if we want

to have that sort of meeting, we might want to figure out a way to remove those sanctions. but this is dangerous. what worries me about this is if there were some kind of incident, be it over taiwan, the south china sea, what have you, right now what we don't have are really good, confident mechanisms the united states and china could do crisis communications. i remember the first months of george w. bush's presidency, the american reconnaissance aircraft collided into a chinese plane. over a week or ten days went by where we couldn't find anyone in china to talk to. we don't want to have that problem now given how much more advanced china is militarily. this is dangerous. we've probably reached the point where knocking on the door doesn't help. it makes us look too anxious for these meetings. >> let's go to turkey, where

president erdogan was reelected, president biden congratulated him, but the most enthusiastic congratulations came from vladimir putin and victor oorba. >> turkey is not this liberal western country. erdogan is a superior politician. there's no silver lining to this. this isn't a liberal democracy. you don't want to be a journalist in erdogan's turkey. you don't want to be kurdish in erdogan's turkey. turkey will go its own way. it will forge its own relationships with russia. it will be willing to use the pressure of immigrants to get what it wants from europe. turkey is technically an ally, but not a partner.

that's what we have to understand. as long as erdogan is in charge, we have this problem with nato. nato's treaty has no mechanism for expelling a country, so we're just going to have to live with this. it's a real problem given turkey's strategic importance in the middle east. he plays his own game. there's really not a lot we can do about it. coming up, one of our next guests spent four years leading biden's communications team. kate bedingfield joins us. bedi.

america is on the brink of defaulting on its debt, and donald trump is telling republicans in congress: “you're going to have to do a default.” he's pushing an extreme agenda to slash the basics we depend on, hurting the middle class, seniors, and veterans. a default would crash our economy, delay social security checks, and put basic services at risk. with so much on the line, now is their chance to finally stand up to trump's chaos.

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after the 2020 election and the attack of january 6th, my fellow republicans wanted me to lie. they wanted me to say that the 2020 election was stolen, that the attack of january 6th wasn't a big deal and that donald trump wasn't dangerous. i had to choose between lying and losing my position in house leadership. >> former congresswoman liz cheney giving the commencement address at her alma mater, colorado college, accusing her republican colleagues of urging her to tell lies in the aftermath of the january 6th insurrection. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe" at 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. just ahead, we're keeping an eye

on wall street, which is reacting positively to the debt ceiling agreement, but on capitol hill there is still some work to be done as leaders of both parties work to secure the votes needed to approve the deal. willie. we begin this hour with a memorial day mass shooting near a beach in florida, just one of many incidents of gun violence across the country this weekend. what's the latest there? >> reporter: authorities say thousands of people were on the beach when this happened. it was supposed to be a holiday celebration for all those here, but of course it turned tragic, not just here but in other parts of the country because of this string of gun violence. here, authorities say there was an altercation on the beach that resulted in exchange of gunfire, leaving victims behind to pick up the pieces.

overnight, gun violence shattering the memorial day holiday in hollywood beach, florida, nine people injured, including a 1-year-old child. this video appears to show the moments after the shooting, people running to take cover from gunfire. >> we keep getting calls. it's an active scene. >> reporter: the chaotic aftermath aptured in this video appearing to show first responders the frantically helping victims. >> we have four juveniles, ages between 1 and 17. >> reporter: police say an altercation between two groups led to the violence. authorities are now asking for the public's help with their investigation. >> if anybody has pictures or videos of this incident, please send it. >> reporter: the mayor condemning the violence. >> saddened and angered that we've had an incident on hollywood beach today. people come to enjoy a holiday

weekend on the beach and to have an altercation on the beach with guns in a public setting with thousands of people around them is beyond reckless. >> reporter: shootings around the country left at least 16 people dead and dozens injured. according to the latest update, eight of those nine victims were in stable condition as of last night and one was undergoing surgery. authorities have detained one person of interest, but they are still looking for a suspect. >> thank you so much. mika. with just six days until the

a short time ago house speaker kevin mccarthy was asked a general question about the growing field of republican candidates for president. he answered this way. >> i think a lot of people are getting in with a lot of different ideas. one thing america loves is those trump policies that made america stronger. we yearn for that, back in this house and back in this country. >> your thoughts? >> policies? >> that would be tax cuts for the rich. what would it be? >> that's a strange thing. what's so wild is, jonathan lemire, you look at the trump policies, for instance on

immigration, never popular. they weren't even popular when he got elected. building the wall, the really harsh stuff, the tax cuts for the rich. you go down it and, again, they weren't overwhelmingly popular. you look at the biden issues. usually on the issues he's doing really well. yet sometimes that doesn't translate as much into an overall high approval rating. who knows, maybe that's because people think he's too old. i don't know exactly why it is. but if you're looking at policies and comparing biden's policies in the polls with trump, it's not really even a close call. >> no, it's not. it's to the frustration of the white house that they don't get enough credit. they still feel confident that come next november, americans will be voting on issues and policies. even if they're not excited

about the democratic candidate per se, they'll be excited about the issues. while trump was in office, he usually got fairly high remarks on his handling of the economy but not much anything else. it also is easy for house speaker mccarthy say that. we know it was mccarthy's visit to mar-a-lago that helped launch trump's rehabilitation within the party after january 6th. at least for now, the speaker is not willing to go there entirely as the republican field grows. desantis hits the trail for the first time today. chris christie is about to get in. we expect mike pence will do the same next week or the week after. >> while we're talking about kevin mccarthy, it's important to point out we certainly have

been critical of kevin mccarthy through the years when we thought he deserved criticism. i want to point out, though, a couple things. first of all, ukraine. when there was a lot of talk that kevin mccarthy and republicans would shy away from supporting ukraine in the coming years, i wrote the quote down. he said, i do support funding for ukraine. i do not support your country killing children. you should pull out, kevin mccarthy said while he was in israel to a russian journalist who asked a leading question about not supporting ukraine. so very strong, very tough. i will say also, again, you were right. we say it's a little thing. it's not really a small thing. when you have people in kevin mccarthy's party that have tried to make joe biden the devil incarnate and saying he's destroying america and he's a

marxist and all the other lies and bs and exaggeration, in that environment kevin mccarthy might put his speakership on the line, he does that deal. not only does he do that russiar

republican senator lindsey graham of south carolina. on friday graham met with ukrainian president zelenskyy in kyiv. afterwards, zelenskyy's office released an edited video of the meeting. in that video graham appears to say, quote, russians are dying and that military assistance.

graham said these things in the conversation, but they were aetd edited to appear as if they were said back to back. graham responded in a series of tweets addressing russian officials and top brass. he said he'll submit to the international criminal court if they do and ending his thread, quote, see you in the hague. >> not only did we have this arrest warrant issued, but you actually had somebody that worked for russian state tv calling for his assassination, which again shows you that this country is no longer if it has been in a very long time a respected member of the international community.

it's just absolutely obscene they are calling for the assassination of a united states senator. >> it's totally outrageous. put this together with what they're doing in ukraine, it paints a very ugly picture right now of russia. back here at home, the insurance company state farm says it will no longer accept applications for home and business insurance in the state of california, citing the increasing risk of wildfires and the rapid inflation in construction costs. the new policy went into effect saturday. over the past five years, california has recorded about 7,000 wildfires every year, consuming more than 2 million acres on average. state farm says existing customers will not be affected and it will continue to offer auto insurance in the state. this is a dramatic step by state

farm. >> it really is. with wildfires happening on a regular basis, it's becoming a bigger cost to insurance companies, so much so that state farm has stopped accepting homeowner insurance applications in the state of california. this does not affect current customers already locked in, but it certainly affects future buyers. the question is how this affected future buyers that don't have insurance yet and real estate prices across the state. the onus really now on lawmakers across the state to see how they will step up and the governor to see what other funds could be provided in terms of protection if we continue to see more wildfires. >> it really is an extraordinary statement from a major insurance company about what's going on with climate change in the state of california. the markets now are open as we cross 9:30 here at the bottom of the hour. there is the announcement of

this debt ceiling deal. how the markets taking that? >> it's a sigh of relief for wall street to see news of this debt agreement. now the focus turns to the road ahead. any possible speed bumps that could stop a deal from getting signed before that june 5th deadline. there are parts of this deal that do impact business that will be in high focus this week, including the $80 billion secured by democrats to help the irs with enforcing its tax code on wealthy americans. and then energy stocks will also be in focus as the current deal in draft includes permits for energy projects to be fast tracked now, including fossil fuel projects and renewables. it's a potential boon for gas and oil producers as well as wind and solar producers. >> finally, the founder of

theranos, elizabeth holmes, scheduled today to report to prison to begin her sentence of more than 11 years at a minimum security facility in texas. holmes was found guilty last year of wire fraud. holmes dropped out of stanford university at the age of 19 to start the company she said would diagnose a number of health conditions with just a pinprick of blood. holmes made theranos into a darling of silicon valley that at one point was valued at more than $9 million. the claims began to unravel amid reports the technology did not appear to work as advertised and it could deliver faulty results. the company later was dissolved. a striking fall from grace for one of the stars for a while in silicon valley. there have been excellent movies and podcasts telling the details of her rise and fall.

>> this is a high interest story for corporate americas and ceos. we're talking about one of the faces of silicon valley now set to report to prison and serve that sentence of 11 years after being found guilty of four charges of wire fraud. holmes just giving birth to her second child. at one point she had some of the most respected leaders on her theranos board, including henry kissinger and others. to see this dramatic fall, certainly something people are talking about. coming up, an incredible run in the nba playoffs continues for the miami heat at the expense of the boston celtics. we'll have highlights of last night's game 7 and more when "morning joe" comes right back. n "morning joe" comes right back

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the miami heat, the lowest scoring team in the league and

the last team to make it into the eastern conference playoffs, they lost only after they've won three straight games to start this series. so with a game 7, they stand eye to eye and they did not blink. the heat are going to the nba finals. >> yes, they are. the miami heat with the boston celtics in game 7 of eastern conference finals in boston, 103-84. what a roller coaster ride this was. remember, the heat were up 3-0, had the series locked up. no nba team had ever come back from that deficit to win the series, but the celtics were playing at home last night. the crowd was jazzed. they just didn't deliver, jonathan lemire. they couldn't make shots. jason tatum was hurt on the game's first or second play, rolled his ankle, clearly wasn't

fully himself. that doesn't explain 9 of 42 from three-point range. they tried to catch up a couple times, but the heat led the whole way. >> they started 0 for their first 11 from three-point shooting. the defense, which had been their hallmark last year, really collapsed. the heat kind of got whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. butler was terrific. tatum was really having trouble moving after this. the celtics showed a lot of heart, then have their lowest scoring game of the year. they just couldn't put the ball in the basket. congrats to the heat. they showed a lot of toughness here.

jokic will be on the stage in denver. >> jimmy butler had 28 points again last night after a slow start. he delivered again. he's become a playoff legend through this series. nuggets are probably the best team in basketball. they're ten days rested. >> it's going to be a fascinating matchup. sometimes those ten-day breaks really work against the team that's gotten the break. over the weekend i saw a david french column following up on a conversation we had last week about masculinity. there was a great article we discussed here about this battle the right to somehow blame all problems of young males on

democrats, on leftists. columnist david french took that on head on in a new piece in the "new york times." >> it's called "the right is all wrong about masculinity." he writes, there's a certain irony in discussions of mascul masculinity. the release of josh hawley's new book on manhood is the latest peg for a national conversation about men. traditional masculinity says that people should meet a challenge with a level head and firm conviction. right-wing culture says that everything is an emergency and is to be combatted with relentless trolling and hyperbolic insults. for all of its faults, when taken to excess, the traditional masculinity, of which senator hawley claims to be a champion, would demand that he stand firm against a howling mob. rather, he saluted it with a

raised fist and then ran from it when it got too close and too unruly. if the right claims traditional mascul masculinity, should it not attempt to have the best virtues of traditional masculimasculini. i write a piece about how the allegedly manly right is committed to petty trolling and hawley responds to the piece with petty trolling. thank you, senator, for demonstrating my point. >> it's all about gesturing, it really is. with people like senator hawley, it's all about shocking. you just saw it right there. it's about lying about david french and anybody else and

trying to gesture and simplify everything. i'm actually surprised here and i know i shouldn't be shocked and surprised. i could be shocked and not surprised. somebody that was given the opportunity to go to yale, go to stanford law school, to have the sort of jobs to run across people in his life that actually served as great examples and then to waste it like this really is heartbreaking. it's also heartbreaking that he's feeding lies to young men, who actually do need examples of strength, do need examples in washington and other places of

that strength, that sometimes quiet strength when required. as david french said, you have josh hawley that actually did exactly what he said josh hawley did, childish gesturing to the far right. on january 6th, when american democracy itself was being questioned by donald trump, this is what josh hawley did. it's such a caricature. it's such a joke. i mean, i say it all the time and i sort of say it tongue in cheek, but real men don't sit around whining about a war on manhood. they get up, they go to work and they work hard and try to do their job. they don't try to overthrow the government like josh hawley did.

and afterwards, when there were impeachment hearings about donald trump trying to overthrow the government, he went up to the balcony and didn't sit with the other senators, sat there taking notes, closing his eyes, acting as distracted as he could, just, again, gesturing. i'll just say it's unfortunate that he's had all these opportunities and this is how he's squandering it. >> yeah. there's no definition of masculinity or manhood that i learned anywhere along the line that said you lie to a whole bunch of people and cheer on an attempted coup against the united states government for your own political benefit. maybe all this works for him and he gets reelected. maybe this is what some of his voters want to hear.

i don't know what his definition of manhood is, but david french served in the united states military, earned a bronze star for fighting in iraq. that might be a check in his favor. we've been talking in the context of the debt ceiling about serious people taking on serious issues and they have done it in this case. the crisis of young men and boys is something we talk about on the show. that is serious and deserves a serious conversation. david french tried to have that with that column and we saw how senator hawley replied. coming up, ben plat won a tony in 2017 for dear evan hanson. he might take home another tony for his role in the broadway musical "parade." he joins the table. "morning joe" will be right back. table "morning joe" will be right back

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♪♪ ♪ it means i'll never ever ever under estimate that woman ♪ ♪ because this is not over yet ♪ >> yeah, that is tony award winner ben platt forming a song from "parade" at the white house, there along with his co-star in honor of jewish american heritage month and ben joins us now along with the show's director, michael arden. good morning to you both. >> good morning. >> first of all, congrats, guys, six tony nominations. >> it's exciting. theater has been our home for a long time, and to get to be part of a season and be celebrated and be part of that excitement is pretty spectacular. >> what was the white house performance like for you, ben? you've done just about everything. >> never that. that was a first. it was wonderful. i mean, it's nice to go for

something that i believe so deep in in, obviously that's an experience i've always wanted to have so to have that in congress with "parade" that i believe in artist likely and politically felt really fulfilling and got to bring my co-star with me. >> also nominated for a tony. >> that's 23. very, very talented lady. >> yes, she is. in fact, the two of you, we were just discussing were here in january to announce that the show was moving to broadway. >> yes. >> the big reveal and it's been so well received since then. is part of that something we talked about when you were here in january, this idea that the theme of the show, this anti-semitism that's at the center of it just feels present again, unfortunately. >> yes, certainly. i think there is an you are jensen people feel with the story and the way michael has directed it, the storytelling is incredibly contemporary and historically grounded so there is a kind of inescapability of the story.

feels immediate in a way that i think audiences are responding to and maybe didn't necessarily feel the first time around when the show came out in '98. i mean you could probably speak more to it but that's what the audiences are feeling. >> the white house has really taken on anti-semitism. so, michael, on that theme, the idea it's sadly so relevant, is that ever present when you're putting on the production? are you hearing that from the audience? are they saying, look, this feels very present. >> we hear the words unfortunately and fortunately. we are living in a world where what we are seeing on stage is happening in the world and there is a louder, more present threat to people in our country because of their faith. and, yet, fortunately we get to as artists reflect that back to an audience so they might begin to grapple with where does this come from? what traumas from our past

haven't we dealt with that we are still festering this type of hate. so it's been incredibly rewarding and challenging, but, you know, i think people are leaving the theater and talking about it in ways that, you know, you might not always do when you go so a broadway play. sometimes you go back just to sit and be entertained which you get in parade. you hear these voices and hear these performances but it is a challenge to the audience to kind of imagine how we got to a place that we are in right now. >> this show has been incredibly well received. you're getting big crowds that come through the theater. what is the energy like in this kind of a show? yes, there's music and it's beautiful but it's heavy in places. >> totally. i think people come in with either a little bit of a knowledge of the subject matter and a little trepidation but a readiness to hear it and take it in. what people get so surprised by how much hope and love and joy and humor in the story.

i think that's what makes it a beautifully crafted piece of art. my character, leone and his wife lucille finding each other and connecting and falling back in love is in direct on significance to some of the more difficult elements so i think it's a really interesting double experience of rooting for this couple and finding joy and hope in their journey and finding a bit of a pit in your stomach from some of the other he will -- elements. >> the energy, it's award season. but tell us about that but also does it also toy with the idea new york feels like it's turned the page on the pandemic. not to say the virus is completely gone but in a new place right now, crowds are back. are you seeing that sort of like revival and energy from the audience. >> absolutely. i think, you know, theater, more so than any of the arts really suffered a blow during the pandemic, completely decimated. doors were closed longer than

they have ever been closed so to see how the industry began to call and then walk back and now people are really coming to the theater, i think broadway had one of its best weeks on record a couple of weeks ago and the tonys only help with that so i think audiences are coming and feel like they are part of this season. you know, we notice a difference in audiences because they want to be cheering on, you know, the hopeful accomplishments of the companies that they come see. so and especially if they're coming to a show like "parade" with such fervor is exciting. >> it's beautifully done. congratulations to both of you, as i said, six tony nominations, the crowds are coming for good reason. "parade" playing at bernard b. jacobs theater right now, ben platt, michael arden, great to see you both. >> thanks, guys. final thoughts? >> i was going to say so exciting what they're doing with "parade." so exciting to have them on this morning. mika, you look at anti-semitism,

not only in the united states but across europe, across the world, it's an important message. it also is extraordinarily entertaining, so what a gift for theatergoers. >> all right, well, that does it for us. that's four hours down for joe, willie and me, five for lemire. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick, final break. a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening

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