but comer and the republicans are prepared to cold christopher wray, the fbi director, in contempt of congress. of course that is meaningless unless the justice department enforces it. >> and comer was scheduled to speak at 1:00 p.m. today. >> we just saw a news release saying that phone call did not resolve the situation. >> did not resolve the situation. ken dilanian, thank you very much. that right there is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. what would be the single act against jack smith right inside of trump's mind and helps him understand the intentions for clinging to power, following his electoral defeat in 2020? well, we don't know for sure, but it just might be trump's

one-man professional firing squad targeting lifelong republican chris krebs. krebs, of course, declared the election, quote, the most secure in american history that will cost him his job. the firing of the top expert has reportedly come under scrutiny by special counsel jack smith as he investigating every piece of the trump coup plot. and "the new york times" reports, the team led is asking witnesses about the events surrounding the firing of chris krebs. he was the top official in the 2020 election. mr. krebs selection that the election was secure with the assertion that it was, quote, a fraud on the american people. the special counsel reportedly issud subpoenas two weeks ago to staff members in the trump white house. a key focus for jack smith according to the "times." the investigators appear focused on trump's state of mind around the firing of mr. krebs.

as well as on establishing a time line of events leading up to the attack on the capitol by a pro-trump mob on january 6. and trump being fashioned by tweet, of course, is a key chapter in the campaign to overturn his defeat. he was fired just two weeks after election day. in hindsight now looks clearly like an early indication that the ex-president and his allies would make the big lie a litmus test of loyalty to the ex-president. and that they would be willing to get rid of, to purge, anyone who stood in the way of peddling the election fraud conspiracies that would serve as a basis for their plan to overturn the 2020 election and eventually for january 6. for chris krebs lending his credibility to the chief election official to the other side, to back the big lie, would have meant throwing out decades of work and expertise in assuring a securely election. here's what he said back in november 2020.

>> i had confidence in the security of this election, because i know the work that we've done for for years in support of our state and local partners. i know the work the intelligence community has done. the department of defense has done, what the fbi has done, what my team has done. i know that these systems are more secure, i know based on what we have seen, that any attacks on the election were not successful. there's no foreign power that is flipping votes. there's no domestic actor flipping votes. i did it right. we did it right. this was a secure election. >> and that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. with us at the table, a real treat, andrew weissmann is back. former justice prosecutor senior member report mueller special counsel investigation. also at the table, neal cottier is here. and in washington betsy woodruff

swan joins us. >> the way you build a criminal case is brick by brick. and this whole piece of the january 6th case, you have somebody who is going to be, as you can see with the clip you just played showed a really good witness for the government. and he's going to be factual. he's going to talk about, as a republican appointed by donald trump, giving facts saying there was no fraud in the election. and on the other side, there are no facts. so, it's just a wonderful example. so, you can add to brad raffensperger, you can add it to pence and the acting attorney general in place of jeff clark. it's all in place. and said this is one really good building block when you sort of give that litany, this is going to be quite a hefty wall. this is a block of evidence. >> yeah, to your point, of course, there's no indication

that jack smith plans to champ donald trump on january 6 related crimes. but should he arrive at that determination, you can almost imagine lifelong trump appointees like brad raffensperger who said i voted for trump, i worked for him to win, i wish he would have won. but when he didn't, i couldn't find 11,887 votes. and chris krebs, i went through the personnel office, my job was secure. >> right, guess what, people act out of principle. people can act out of principle, democrats can act out of prince bell. that's what donald trump is being accused of not acting out of princprinciple, as he famous said to mike pence, you're too honest. this is a really good building block. and i suggest that they're looking to see if chris krebs can be a good government witness. because he was so factual. his job was looking at the

election. so the clip you played is going to be backed up by lots of data that he can play out to the jury. and there isn't going to be anything on the other side. >> right. i mean, it seems with seven years of covering mueller and the impeachment. and trying to hold trump account only there's the last link of trying to understand his intentions. and it seems like a crush of witnesses like bill barr who said i told him it was bull -- and lost the data that shows him the counties. i mean, it seems like anyone seeking to improve his intentionality has to do is find all of these people that interacted with trump and told him the truth? >> that's exactly right. so jack smith is investigating this concerted effort by donald trump to basically hijack the january 6 election.

and that has two big prongs to it. one is cockamamy legal theories that trump advanced and we're talked about those ad nauseam. and the other is insane personnel decisions. getting rid of people who actually tell the truth and putting in people like rudy giuliani, in positions of power, and things like that. so what smith is doing here, he's trying to get under the hood, as you said at the outset, by looking at the personnel decisions, trying to understand why did you fire this good guy. i mean, bill barr said this was basically a clown show january 6. bill barr knows a lot about clown shows. so, you know, that's what i think smith is doing. trying to figure out why is it in the world that you would get rid of the one guy who actually talks sense. you just played the clip. he doesn't sound like your typical trump person. he sounds like someone who plays it straight. that's exactly what trump's

problem was. >> i mean, the elephant in the room in 2016, the biden administration had to turn to the department of homeland security and other security agencies and communicate to leaders on the hill that russia had interfered in that election. so, the mission was borne out of a national security imperative, really, from the last presidential contest. so, it seems to cut both ways, towards trump's intention to overturn a defeat. and trump's indifference about chris krebs would say the mission was protecting elections. >> you have to understand the government from 2016 to 2020 was doing exactly what you want them to do which is uncovering russian interferences, and figure out countermeasures and the like. what chris krebs said two weeks after the election. we did it, we succeeded. we got it right. trump then fires him and talks about hugo chavez and all sorts

of nonsense in order to build narrative. and we saw the consequences, unfortunately, of that narrative on january 6 of. >> what do you think the real truth of proportionality between the time of jack smith and the investigation and january 6? >> well, there's no question that the january 6 case, while i think it will be brought and i think it will be extremely strong for the reasons we discussed, it's just so complicated because it's so much bigger. we talked about what's happening in the white house with pence. we talked about the doj with the state pieces. there's the chris krebs pieces. >> a lot. >> exactly. and someone disagreed with the attorney general when he said this is the most massive investigation we've ever undertaken. i mean, this isn't. it's just it's big, but it's not terribly complicated. the evidence is this is the kind of evidence when you're a prosecutor, you're sort of like dying for this because there's

so much proof. mar-a-lago is just a much more discreet set of facts. you still have to tie everything down, you have to interview all of the witnesses. that is one, if i were a betting man to answer these kind of questions i would say mar-a-lago is going to go first. and that seems to me, i mean, i hate to use the phrase because fani willis has used it, it does seem imminent to me. and i feel that jack smith will feel the pressure to bring it -- not because he wants to rush it but i think the american people are entitled to know the answer to whether a candidate for office has committed a state and federal crimes. so, i think jack smith will feel that pressure. i think any judge who gets this case will feel the pressure to bring that to fruition, as fast as possible, consistent with due process, meaning that donald trump like any defendant is going to be given time to prepare and make motions.

but not drag things out ad nauseam as they want. >> to put it in more simple terms, mar-a-lago is really easy. trump stole some stuff. he then lied about steal something stuff. and then they moved, you know, the stuff, when investigators came. that is all the prosecution is. it's not that different than government prosecuting people for stealing stuff. indeed if it were anyone else this guy would have been indicted a long, long time ago. that makes it an easy case. it makes it a case, andrew talks about pressure to indict. i wouldn't say that i'd say basically, as a prosecutor looking at this, you ask was the law violated and is this the traditional thing we prosecute? every day, every week we would. that's just the property of it. you add on the national security dimension. people have given their lives for the kind of material that trump is holding in his social club. >> to this day. >> yeah, you know.

when you add all of that, it makes it, to me, virtually impossible not to indict this case for that reason. >> and isn't there an aspect where you bring the case when it's ready? there's a sense from the outside that may be more mature? >> yeah. absolutely. i mean, i pressure in enron, being in a meeting when the then acting attorney general defended us and said, you know, the enron task force, the cases it's going to bring when they tell they're ready. because there's nothing worse than bringing a case before it's ready. and i know a lot of people are impatient in thinking why hasn't this happened. remember, you want the case to succeed, you want to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. while i agree with neal, certainly mar-a-lago is, i won't say easy, but i don't really think any criminal case is easy, because the burden is so high. and you want to tie everything down. but i do think that's one where it can be ready. and we're seeing all of the tines that jack smith is doing

exactly what he is trained to do, which is to really lock everything in, so that he can win the case beyond a reasonable doubt, unanimously. and we're essentially just waiting to see, you know, when that's brought. >> chris krebs is almost a chapter in the trump story and himself. fired by trump on twitter. his crime against trump in trumpism was, one, doing his job, protected from foreign interference or any domestic meddling. but, two, blowing up the narrative. what's interesting to me, it slides the time line back in a way that is really fixed. and the congressional point does this as well, tying it back to the email exchange before july. before it took a big hit due to covid. but that email documentation,

going to senior trump aides in the summer. but this firing of krebs is trump's act on twitter feed and trump is ranting and ravening in meetings with a slew of witnesses that have been in and out and in and out to the jack smith grand juries. what do you make of chris krebs, and his decision of firing him and being at the heart of jack smith? >> what i can tell you, it's not just a development that's happened in last two weeks, actually going back at least several months, jack smith's team has ask the multiple trump world witnesses, and not just people from the personnel office, about the decisions leading up to the firing of chris krebs, and the circumstances under which will he was fired. this isn't a new line of inquiry for the special counsel. it's something that he's been getting information on for at least quite some time now. of course, that makes sense, given that this episode, and the

trump presidency saga, very much crystallizes so many other scenes that played out during trump's time in office. one really notable irony, perhaps, about krebs' time wanting the dhs basically cyber security and infrastructure security shop, one notable thing a top priority for krebs that agency was getting state and local election systems around the country to have paper backups. of voting records. and the reason for that was so that their election decisions would be auditable. when krebs starts at sisa, there were a huge number of election locations, election organizers, administrators, who didn't have paper backups for the votes that were made. that was a problem because there wouldn't be a way of verifying the outcomes of these elections. so getting that reduced, getting

that remedy, was a top priority for dhs which, of course that priority was carried out during the trump administration. the irony here, of course, that project framed by krebs as a trump political appointee resulted in so many of trump's laughable and outrageous claims about election security being debunkable. there was now so much more paper evidence, so much more documentation of election results than there would have been. and the overwhelming unanimous response to the allegations that trump made, in part, the response that was burnished by the changes that sisa helped bring forward was that those lies about the election outcome, while trump and his allies were in fact lies -- there's two things really important when you talk about election security that dhs folks will tell you, first, the elections have to be

secure. and the american people have to be confident that the elections are secure. security is important for democracy to work, people have to know their vote counted. for sisa, the project wasn't just getting the elections to be secure. the project was also communicating that they were skun. and that communication piece is what trump found absolutely intolerable because telling the truth about security of elections was not helpful in trump's efforts to stay in power having lost. that's why trump fired krebs. and there's no question that that specific episode is deeply important to jack smith and his investigators. >> betsy, just to build on what you're reinforming us about, and you're right, the way that the arizona recounts -- i think they were recounted three times. and trump's crazy -- the cyberninjas go in and count

them. like they were thrice counted for joe biden, and the paper ballots confirmed joe biden's win. the january 6 committee started developing into the other side of this which was the trump campaign efforts to get the states to claim irregularities. and they developed some evidence about krebs as a bulwark against these fraudulent claims. let me read that. on november 12th, the same day cisa released its statement, trump asked tim wallberg, a republican congressman from michigan, to check key leadership. and the next day, the president trump's assistant sent, and forwarding the allegations to cisa and christopher krebs, krebs provided wolf with a press

release from the michigan secretary of state that debunked the false claim in detail. on november 17th, krebs tweeted out a statement issued by the nation's leading election scientist that election claims had been manipulated are unsubstantiallied or technically incoherent. trump fired krebs the same day. seems like krebs was around long enough to have visibility in trump's state-by-state efforts to overturn his defeat predicated on knowing lies? >> yeah, and part of krebs' role at the cyber security agency was with all of the state local and state administrators. one of the big -- getting to know hows of people around the country who worked to organize elections. remember, america's election system is profoundly decentralized which of course is probably a security benefit.

it's not run by the fed. even though these are federal elections, they're administered by state and local officials. so one of the things that cisa worked on is improving administration data sharing with all of these. and the federal government. not that the federal government could take over as trump himself considered doing when he had that draft order about seizing voting machines but rather so that the federal government and intelligence resources could share and get information from state and local administrators. that was a key role that cisa, a bastion of relationships during krebs' time there. and that also something that dhs, more broadly, having these relationships around the country of course the information that would have been shared through those relationships. the pressure that these state and local administrators would be facing from the white house

himself, from the president himself, that's another key question for jack smith and his team. and also, of course, one that the select committee looked at in extraordinary detail. >> neal, i want to show you one other thing that chris krebs said, just following up on that question to betsy, about how he can expand the time line and maybe the amperture of the election. >> there were others attempting to undermine confidence in the process. if you recall, there was a lot of work over the summer to call into question the expansion of mail-in voting and absentee ballot use, due to the fact that, yeah, there was a pandemic ongoing. and we wanted to make sure -- states wanted to make sure that it was safe to vote. that was, for me -- the first

real indicator that were going to be some shenanigans in the 2020 election. >> that clip reminded me that bill barr on cnn was talking about before anyone even started voting -- this was a trump directed effort to do exactly what krebs describes. >> exactly, what krebs clip does, for prosecutors, it establishes what was trump doing at the time, concerted plot starting in the summer, maybe long before that, to try and claim the election was his, regardless of outcome. the second it goes to what you were talking about at the beginning, his mens rea, his criminal contempt. what you're going to hear from the other side, well, it's perfectly legal for the president to fire who he wants. we heard that with jim comey.

and i don't think jack smith is trying to say that the firing of krebs was itself the crime, was itself illegal. rather, it's demonstrating these other two things. it's a way to try to get at what actually trump did on january 6 and before and what was he thinking at the time. and that's where the crime occurs. so, it's just like, you know, you have the absolute right, andrew and i have used this example in the past, you have a laptop, you can do that, there's no problem. but if you know the cops are coming to you -- >> and your emails have been subpoenaed. >> right. that's a different thing. this evidence goes to what trump was thinking and what he did. >> it is always with trump the fact that there are enough insane people that you can assemble every expert in the world, chris krebs, bill barr, bill stepien, everyone from the top to the bottom, to say, yeah, he lost, and i told him he lost.

mark milley in his transcript in the january 6 select committee had a conversation with the subsequent president of what had gone wrong. the co-could haveny of voices. and saying that he could have believed something else. is there a norm inside of prosecutions where if 45 people with credibility are saying things like that, then you can't lean on the pillow person? >> well, that's a real factual call as to whether you think you can prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt. and that means you have to approve the mens rea, as neal said, the intent. i have to say, here, i don't see the other side. because to quote the then white house counsel, at some point, facts matter.

and you have to put up or shut up. >> at which point, right. >> and the issue here is not just somebody saying, oh, i think there's fraud in the election. this is what chris krebs has said, the guy that you have put in charge of whether there is fraud in the election has said there is no fraud in the election. >> and he has his job in the minute he says those things publicly. >> exactly. so the answer is should you bring this or not, based on whether you think there's some good faith belief on the part of the former president is what were the facts that said the opposite. and that, to this day, as we are sitting here, that is a null set. you have -- you said there's tons of evidence on the other side. you don't have anything on the other side. to me, it reminds me of e. jean carroll case that we just saw. the way they summed up, you know, facts matter. every case of evidence was on one side of the equation. >> right. >> and you didn't have donald

trump with any factual evidence to say this is what happened. >> neal. >> yeah, andrew is making a great point. i want to make a point about government in the story. as you know from working in the white house, when you're the president, you have people around you that will say whatever you want. if they don't, you can easily find someone else who does. that is the way government works, and a good leader understands that dynamic and says i don't want the yes person. i don't want the person who's going to put me in my maga bubble. i want the person that thinks the other way. that's why fdr was such a great president. and the channel, and all about cultivating good information for the president. and what this underscores is a white house that was dominated entirely bill the universe. maybe it's criminal, maybe it's not but it's a terrible, terrible way to run a government. >> that's an appropriate last

word, neal ketyal, thank you for joining us at the table. when we come back, we'll talk about the mishandling of documents and obstruction of that. and in the frantic few weeks before authorities searched mar-a-lago. how an employee's actions once again come under scrutiny by jack smith as they try to determine whether trump obstructed the case. plus, the ron desantis case is hoping to convince top donors he's their man to. for a man sweeping draconian laws governing women's bodies and reproductive care. and has gone to head to head with the happiest place on earth. new leaked auto reveals the campaign is under way. and another trump legal team to move the manhattan d.a.'s

34-counts against the ex-president. the federal court, we'll tell you why and what it says about the desperation in that case. we'll tell you that story and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. house" continues after a quick break.

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switching gears just a little bit to the drum beat of incremental development in the special counsel's other problem into donald trump as mishandling of classified documents. it's getting a little louder today after what was a daily drip, drip, drip, every day last week. headline after head line, about jack smith's focus and the strength of his evidence. "the washington post" is

reporting today that doj prosecutors are focused on actions last july as the unnamed mar-a-lago employee who helped move boxes of documents in june, the day before fbi agents showed up. that employee according to the "washington post" reporting has also, quote, been questioned by his conduct related to government demand for surveillance footage from donald trump's property. that's from a person familiar with the probe. and authorities have also examined events surrounding footage in a subpoena around the property. at that point, an employee allegedly had a conversation with an i.t. worker at the site about how long the security cameras were and stored in the system. the person familiar with that aspect of the investigation said. nbc news has not confirmed that, we'll have to update that story when we do, we're back with

betsy and andrew weissmann. what do you make of this? >> well, this is what we know and what jack smith was confronted with. which is, what was in this storage locker, storage room in mar-a-lago is one thing. and there was a certification that was drafted by corcoran, and it said, we've looked at everything and nothing else remains. and everybody knows that's not true, because months later they do search their stuff, apparently in the office and according to beryl howell, a chief judge, it was in donald trump's bedroom. the concern is that the certification said that a diligent search was done and everything has been returned. and so, the question for the people who -- for instance,

corcoran and baab is how did you sign that how did you prepare that? >> right. >> so, they're sitting there saying, you know, i don't want to hold this hot potato. i'm going to blame somebody else. presumably, they didn't knowingly sign something. i have to say there are a lot of red flags. for instance, why didn't corcoran sign it himself, why did christina bobb sign it. who gave it to corcoran and bobb. and there's some indication it is the underlings who may have given information to mr. corcoran and he relied on them. >> but did he go through the boxes and see the classified material? i mean, that's ridiculous. >> exactly. so the reporting is mr. corcoran was today, oh, everything was in the storage locker but how would an underling know, and why would

mr. corcoran take that from an underling before you take that to the department of justice and it's a crime to lie to the department of justice. at some point, that this doesn't emanate from donald trump, it was kind of ludicrous, that this is what criminal prosecutors need to do, they need to go step-by-step to get something that is provable with respect to donald trump. so what we're missing in the reporting is what exactly was donald trump's role in all of this. and what is corcoran saying about donald trump himself? what is bobb saying about donald trump himself? what is the underling who helped move the boxes what is he saying about donald trump himself? we can say it's obvious, but that doesn't cut it in the court of law. you need to have a witness saying this is what my instructions were. this could end up being strong. we could end up with someone saying essentially, donald trump

said everything is in the storage room. when he knows it's in his office or bedroom. if that's the case, it's kind of game over. >> betsy, we don't know, but jack smith knows, because the judge isn't the same judge. beryl howell already found that a crime had been committed. that's why the grand jury has already this information from christina bobb and corcoran. jack smith knows and so does the grand jury. >> and yeah, one of the outstanding questions, when does jack smith start sharing what he knows. and anthony gourley has told me keep an eye on the one-year anniversary of the search of mar-a-lago. he said his guess is that it's likely jack smith will bring some sort of charges before he hits that 12-month mark. of course, guessing a high-risk

undertaking when it comes to anything doj-related timing. but we do know that jack smith has conducted an incredible a thorough investigation. has talked to so many people of trump's organization, all levels of trump world. to some of the most senior people including multiple people that worked as lawyers for the former president. and just raises the question at what point is smith going to start revealing some of what he's learned in this extraordinary detailed report. >> betsy, i hung on to everything you said but i wrote down august. and put a line through it. locations all over the landscape. thank you for sharing your reporting. up next for us, frustration starting to bubble among ron desantis' backers and donors according to local florida reporting. that is so juicy. how do you answer questions by a candidate that has trouble

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>> either/or? you're wearing a ron desantis t-shirt. that's like mr. mets saying go mets, or yankees, i'm not really into baseball. this is just an unrelated medical condition [ laughter ] certainly, there are more signs in place polling voters' intensity, walking around with a microphone. it was something, right, in so far as it raises a pretty good question, does anybody, voters, donors, conservative media, freudians really love ron desantis as the next president of the united states? certainly some people have the idea of him. but one poll after another poll after another poll reinforces trump is out of his mind making sure even his former press secretary knows. this is very much donald trump's republican party. he's got a lead hovering well above the 20s as we sit here today.

we mentioned donors. they're squirrelly things if you know donors, audio obtains reveals deep concerns for the desantis campaign. in particular, what nbc news has not independently verified shows the way the team spun bad polling remains closely a case for donald trump. of course, a lot can change in the next week, let alone the next few months. but one thing is clear, desantis is way behind. and has a long, long way to go. joining our coverage, former congressman from florida, an msnbc political only live david jolly, boston globe analyst kimberly atkinson. david jolly, with a point between desantis and trump, two tarantulas in a bowl, there's

nobody to root for. the facts, pure political analysis, is that people are not into ron desantis? >> yeah, that's right. ron desantis is an uniquely unlikable person. and that's a hard pitch for somebody trying to lead the nation. and i think what you're also seeing in raw statics, nicolle, is whether or not ron desantis has hit his ceiling. his numbers in the low to mid-20s have been fairly accurate. the 20% or 25% for a year saying i'm for ron desantis are the republicans looking to get past donald trump. that doesn't mean they're never-trumpers. they probably voted for him. they like him just ready for the party to have another standard-bearer. what desantis is unable to do thus far is take away a loyal donald trump voters from donald trump which is in this cycle which is why donald trump's

numbers remain 50% to 60%. you see ron desantis fighting to make any argument he can among donors and voters as to why he should be the republican nominee in 2024. at this point, he's not offering anything to convince them to shift from donald trump to ron desantis. >> i want to explain what i'm doing first, one is ron desantis is the product of elite circle it's, elite education. his whole mantra is anti-elite. and i'm going to show you that, but this is now fox news and brian kilmeade and other few from fox seem to be big desantis fans. this is how they're talking about ron desantis on fox news. >> i think he would just rip the stitches off joe biden in the general. but then, the fbi would probably destroy him along with the cia. i'm sure the pentagon probably has a picture of him stacking up iraqi bodies in a baghdad prison cell or something like that. either that, or they'll probably

tap his phones. think about it if trump is a rapist traitor/rebel, can you have them come out and say he's not as bad as trump? that's actually pretty good, he's not as bad. he has to be absolutely worse. >> so, i don't know where he's going. i think we do know where if there's a line at fox, it's around the sadistic new things of killing of an antifa guy that was allegedly the straw breaking the camel's back with tucker carlson. it's easy to say i'm sure the pentagon has a picture of him stacking up iraqi bodies in a baghdad prison cell. it seems people that want to be for ron desantis can't come up with anything pro-ron desantis to say? >> yeah, i'm going to assume that means there is a fear that ron desantis could not beat joe biden. and they're trying to disparage him and try to put an end to

this before it starts. i think that's an extreme version of what's going on within the republican party from the grassroots up. you know, you have people, including donors who are incredibly important, so we're not sure that ron desantis' stance on things like abortion are going to fly in a primary, let alone a general election. he has a lot of things going for him once the donors start questioning it. it's not proven that he has an answer to donald trump. he hasn't really gone head to head with him, so far other than saying up in now i'm not a candidate and i don't need to go against him. now he is a candidate and perhaps he's waiting for chris christie who is getting into the race and others to launch that full frontal attack on donald trump so he can sort of dodge that.

there's only so long that he's able to do. he's really been unable to establish a lane in which he's running. and really show who his constituency is. and time is running out for him to do that. >> at a less analytical and gut level, he's inauthenticate. i mentioned his education. here's what will he said, david jolly. >> i wish the elites in washington, d.c. would take a page out of the iowa playbook. two different sets of rules depending on whether you're a member in good standing of elite society or not. these elites are not enacting an agenda to represent us like our elites have done with the chinese communist party for more than a generation. china's been empowered by elites in our country for decades. >> so he is, just the facts here, an elite. and these -- i mean, frankly, if you're going to run against

donald trump and joe biden, you're the elite, ron. i mean, what is he do, david jolly? >> yeah, says the yale/harvard grad. and also suggests for those of us that go five or six generation information the state of florida, we did not have pride in ron desantis brought that to us. he is the model of elitism. look, he's a fragile person and the country is going to get to see. more importantly, you played with the fox news sound is his question what is the real danger to the nation? but could ron desantis possibly be more dangerous than donald trump. somewhat started, nicolle showing it this week, and i believe ron desantis to be a greater threat than donald trump. and i don't say that as a quip. here's why, i think donald trump is a brutist politician, lock

you into a room and try to stop the constitution. at least the violence, he's in elite danger. but ron desantis, the paranoia and executive abuse of richard nixon the view like pat robertson. and the discreet technology of bill barr. with ron desantis you'll have someone do it by a thousand cuts. those thousand cuts include bringing and ripping our cultur progressive ideologies and the lgbtq issues that we continue to try to mainstream in the united states. ron desantis stands in the way of a culture moving forward and it is a real debate. equally dangerous, but each

present a real danger to the future of the country in my opinion. >> and again, importantly and just at a political calculation, on the policies, they are both way out of mainstream of the vast majority of americans. we'll go behind the tabs and look at those numbers after a very short break. don't go anywhere. r a very short break don't go anywhere. salonpas lidocaine flex. a super thin, flexible patch with maximum otc strength lidocaine that contours to the body to relieve pain right where it hurts. and did we mention, it really, really sticks? salonpas, it's good medicine.

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ban which is the law of the land in florida, near total ban on abortion. vast majority of women don't know they are pregnant at six weeks. they have missed none or maybe one period by that point if you do the math. permitless carry is also law in florida. and expanding the right to vote is actually a really popular thing in america. 80% of americans think it should be easier not harder to vote. desantis isn't just for bragging about his own state's election integrity, he has created a police force to criminalize voting. i wonder what is the conversation where donors everyone sound like, i'm out of the mainstream of the republican mainstream on abortion, guns and democracy. >> yeah, and not only that, those are issues along with protecting lgbtq rights that

will motivate democrats to get out to vote. it is very telling that governor desantis has said almost nothing about the mass shooting that occurred in his state just over the holiday weekend that left people including children injured. that is the third rail for him as he sort of puts his head in the sand, but this is something that increasingly we've seen bipartisan legislation here in washington something that almost never happens happened in the last year just to address gun violence because it has become so untenable for voters of all parties. so, yes, he is making it very difficult. he is sort of doubling down and thought that he could engage in this anti-woke to the right of donald trump campaign and that that is the lane that would propel him forward. but increasingly and more and more as we're hearing from voters, as we're hearing from donors, that is not working. so it is hard to see exactly where he is going with his

platform. >> and i didn't go to an elite college but i think that there might be a lesson in terms of understanding the right/left spectrum and understanding that there isn't anything to the right of donald trump in terms of building an audience or base of support or donors. just unbelievable again early miscalculations from ron desantis. thank you both so much for your time. to be continued of course. coming up for us, we get our first glimpse into the evidence manhattan d.a. alvin bragg has in his case against donald trump including an audiotape between the ex-president and a witness. we'll bring you that story and more in the next hour of "deadline: white house." eadline" (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon. the network she can count on. and now she's got myplan. the game changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants, and save on every perk. sadie's getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone 14 pro! cute couple. trips don't last forever. neither does summer love. so, sadie's moving on. apple music? check.

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we need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david. you know, so that -- we can do that right away. i've spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with will -- >> so what do we got to pay for this? >> yes. and it is all the stuff -- all the stuff. because you never know where that -- i'm all over that. and i spoke to allen about it. when it comes time for the financing which will be -- >> what financing? >> we'll have to pay -- >> we're not paying with cash. >> no, no, no. >> of course you can never unhear. maybe he will get hit with a

truck, pay with cash. hi, everybody. 5:00 in new york. apparently wh tasked with paying off a porn star you may also be prone to record your conversations with donald trump. that exchange between then candidate trump and his lawyer at the time michael cohen from september 2016 was about burying the story with cash in case a guy got hit by a truck that former playboy model karen mcdougal had an affair with trump ten years prior. trump falifying the records of that payment and his hush money payment to stormy dan yes, ma'ams is what a grand jury in manhattan indicted him for doing allegedly. the ex-president has pleaded not guilty to the 34 counts and denies having an affair with either of those women. we're now learning that audio recordings like the one we just played could take on new importance. nbc news reports that prosecutors in new york have informed attorneys for donald trump that the evidence in their

hush money case against the former president includes an audio recording of him and a witness. the court filing made public friday shows the filing does not identify the witness or say when the recording was made or when trump's lawyers were made aware of it. so the recording prosecutors have do be the one we just played for you, it could be another one we've heard or another one we've never heard publicly. but no matter what it is, we know from the e. jean carroll trial that hearing a defendant especially when it is donald trump speak about matters under scrutiny in their own words can be a very powerful piece of evidence. meanwhile trump's team has been trying desperately to move this case from state criminal court to the u.s. district court in manhattan, federal court, and that effort is also being undermined by the ex-president's own words. a.p. says trump's lawyers argue he can't be tried in state court because some of the alleged conduct occurred in 2017 while

he was president including checks he reportedly wrote while sitting in the oval office. they argue the case belongs in federal court because it involves important federal questions including alleged violation of federal election law. the d.a.'s office in its response pointed to tweets from 2018 in which trump said he was paying cohen a monthly retainer an cohen was being reimbursed if $130,000 private agreement the lawyer made with stormy daniels to keep her from speaking about an alleged affair. senior counsel for the manhattan d.a. argues in a new 40 page filing that the, quote, alleged criminal conduct had no connection to his official duties and responsibilities, but instead, quote, arose from his unofficial actions relating to his private businesses and pre-election conduct. i need to clarify, just writing the check part, the hush money part, to a porn star is not part

of an official american presidential duty. that is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. at the table, legal analyst a andrew weissmann is back. and also joining us at the table correspondent at van vanity fair is back. and also our legal analyst mary mccord is back. andrew, what is this? >> so nicole, when you phrased the intro as we're having a discussion about whether writing checks that are trying to cover up that you are paying a porn star but making it looks like legal fees and it is being done from the oval office, it is really hard leaving aside that this is the subject of a criminal case and there are 34 felony counts just the idea that any president would leave aside

politics and any republican, democrat, is debasing the office and would think of doing that in the oval office where you've been there and the grandeur of the location and history and obligation to the american public, it is just remarkable that this is the conversation, a conversation that we had 30 minutes ago about other types of crimes that the former president is engaging in which is basically fraud on the election that he is engaging into this day. i think the biggest thing for people to take in terms of the minutia is the effort to have this go from state court to federal court. one, i think that it is being done because donald trump has experience with the state court judge. he is the judge who presided over the trump organization trials where there were convictions this past fall. and so i think that he just doesn't see that as a good

forum. and so he is thinking maybe some federal judge might be better. he might be careful for what he wishes for, but on the legal side, a i know mary will speak to this as well, there is not a snowball's chance in hell that it will work.know mary will speo this as well, there is not a snowball's chance in hell that it will work. you don't have to be a lawyer to say paying hush money from the oval office is not something that you do being president, that is a personal matter. >> i'll try to keep a straight face. and i don't want to be prudish about this, so i'll keep my question, mary, rooted in the legality here. does moving in to federal court mean that you can charge the additional federal crimes? is it silly as a tactic and stupid as a strategy? >> well, removing this case to federal court if he is successful, and i agree with andrew that i do suspect this case will be remanded back to state court.

but even if it were to stay in federal court, it is really the same case. it would be prosecute the by the manhattan district attorney and it would be for the same charges that are already in that indictment returned in the state court. all it does is change the venue. and historical reasons were actually about trying to avoid states that were very hostile to federal officials enforcing federal law like tax collectors for example. and it goes back to the 1800s. it was never imagined to be used for a president to remove a case where he is being criminally charged for personal conduct that violates state law that is not in any way shape or form the execution of federal law. >> so andrew mentioned some of the reason that trump is in trouble is tangled up in the way

this was reported. as with so many trump crimes, there is confession on the record. here is rudy giuliani. >> having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it is not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> they funneled it through a law firm. >> and the president repaid it. >> i didn't know he did. no campaign finance law. >> zero. >> so rudy thinking, i don't know, we won't use the verb, rudy confesses that trump paid his own money. i mean, what is so incredible about getting to this point is that the facts are rarely in dispute. >> yeah, it is the gang that

can't crime straight. they are the white house plumbers, you know, they just can't -- >> the woody harrelson version. >> right. they keep breaking into the watergate and it keeps not working for them. good news for them is that the base doesn't care. right? we saw this before and we'll see it again. the base just is accepting of what trump does even though, you know, for the rest of us it is just terrific. >> and i want to switch gears to a story that you brought to our attention that broke on cnn. let me read some of it to all of you. federal prosecutors have obtained an audio records of a summer 2021 meeting in which former president trump acknowledges that he held on to a classified document about a potential attack on iran undercutting his argument that he declassified everything. the recording indicates trump understood he retained classified material after leaving the white house

according to multiple sources familiar with the investigation. on the recording, trump's comment suggests that he would like to share the information but is aware of limitations on his ability post-presidency to declassify records two sources said. this feels like a lights out indictment of any sort of baloney that he has been saying about i thought i declassified them. he didn't even declassify them in his imagination. >> if this reporting is true, and i'm not trying not to use hyperbole, this is game over. there is no way that he will not be charged. one, it is a tape recording. even though the reporting is there are also witnesses so there could be a tape recording with witnesses, it involves not just possession of classified information, but dissemination of classified information. that puts it into a completely different ballpark when you are at the department of justice examining the seriousness of the violation and whether to bring

charges. it also is a separate crime to disseminate versus just possess. andit differentiates biden an pence. so from a political perspective it is huge because there is no evidence this happened with respect to president biden or former vice president pence. the information is not just classified information, it is one of the most sensitive types of classified information which is war plans involving potential attack on iran. so from every single aspect of this, if this reporting is accurate and there is this tape recording, there will be an indictment and it is hard to see how given all the evidence that we've been talking about that there will not be a conviction here. and this is a tape recording. >> so a lot of what is public facing is the evidence that sort of piles up on the obstruction side. there is a lot less visibility

into the espionage or mishandling. this you're saying is you think game over on an espionage charge or what is the charge? >> absolutely. so there is espionage charges. this is basically it is a crime to -- >> violation of the espionage act. >> yes. so it is a crime to possess national defense information without authority. it is a crime to disseminate that, that is to share it. and here there apparently is shared with people who don't have clearance to get this information. and again this, is not like a football. this is war plans given to people who have no clearance to get it. it is hard to imagine -- this is their worst nightmare as to what they were thinking would happen

with this information which is that donald trump was at the very least lax in how he was handling it and it is going to have huge repercussions within the intelligence community in terms of making sure that this is not the only thing that was disseminated. >> mary, there is distorted sequencing of our understanding of jack smith's cases. we learn about it when it becomes public, but this is quite possible this is one of the first things that jack smith new about or maybe even merrick garland. and again, these are three highly regarded journalists at cnn. paula reid, caitlin popolantz, d they report that trump understood that he retained classified information and it gets to the state of mind about what he had.

and trump's comments suggest that he would like to share the information but he is aware of limitations on his ability post-presidency to declassify records. it gets straight at what he understood and there is reporting anybodying around nibbling around the edges, but this reporting seems to put a whole lot of new information in the public side of what we understand in terms of the strength of jack smith's case and understanding trump's true intent. >> yeah, and i think this is really interesting because everything that andrew just said assumes that there really was a four page classified document about iran that the president was talking about when he was apparently being interviewed by people doing an autobiography of mark meadows. and i assume back to your point about how long ago did jack smith figure this out, how smart of jack smith to say let's interview anyone who ever interviewed trump after left the

white house to see what he might have said to them. but it assumes there is a real document there. in the rest of that cnn reporting, i noted that the -- this interview with trump where the recording was made, where he claimed to have this document and said i sure would like to show it to you except that i know i'm bound because it is classified, that is very telling of his intent, but it could be that he's making it up. because according to the cnn story, this is right after there was some other reporting that said it was milley who was trying to push back against trump's intent and interest in baiting iraq and that apparently trump was very aggravated about milley saying that. suddenly here he is on tape saying i have a four page classified document from general milley recommending this type of troop activity. and i don't know and presumably jack smith knows whether there is or is not such a document,

you about either way his intent and knowledge was revealed. whether he was making it up or not making it up, he was acknowledging i don't have authority to have classified information or to share it with you. but i do think that it is interesting. he sort of seems by this reporting to say i'd sure like to share it with you so i can rebut what general milley is saying but i can't. >> and now i get to read more of this fantastic reporting because there is great context i want to share with our viewers, and we also have to keep in mind that he is such a fantastical fibber that we have to remember he could have been lying. let me read more of this new reporting. federal prosecutors have obtained an audio recording of a summer 2021 meeting in which former president trump acknowledges that he held on to a classified pentagon document about a potential attack on iran. multiple sources told cnn undercutting trump's argument that he declassified everything. the recording indicates trump

understood he had taken classified documents and trump's comments suggests that he would like to share the information but he is aware of limitations on his ability to declassify records two of the sources said. cnn hadn't listened to the recordings but multiple sources describe them, one source said the relevant portion on the iran document is about two minutes long and part of a longer meeting. and here is what mary is getting at. jack smith leading the investigation into trump has focused on this meeting as part of the criminal investigation into trump's handling of national security secrets. sources describe the recording as an important piece of evidence in a possible case against trump who has repeatedly asserted that he could repain presidential records and automatically declassify documents. prosecutors have requested witnesses about the recording and the document before a grand jury. and there is enough interest to have questioned general mark

milley about the incident. the july 2021 meeting was held at trump's golf club in bedminster. including communications specialist margo martin. attendees did not have security clearances that would have allowed them to access classified information. meadows did not attend. let me read this one more section of this report and mary i'm coming back to you. investigators have questioned general milley about the episode making him one of the highest ranking national security officials from trump's administration to meet with the special counsel's team. general mark milley seems so central to understanding not just what happened with this document, but general milley was interviewed by the select committee investigating january 6 and there is an interaction with trump where general milley has offered sworn testimony.

and again talking about iran. an general milley has already been before jack smith's investigators. do we assume as well that he has been before the grand jury, mary? >> probably so because, you know, general milley is still in office and it is possible -- i say probably so. i shouldn't say that. it is possible because he is still holding office that he came in voluntarily with government counsel along with him. but if he had something valuable to go in front of that grand jury, i suspect that he would have done so. and i think that you are right, he is the key here. he will know whether there is such a document, if there is as andrew says this could be totally explosive because it means that the former president not only had unauthorized retention of it and possession of it, but also shared at least something about its contents with people not authorized to receive those contents. if milley says there is no such document, again, it just shows

again the lies of a serial liar but it doesn't change the important aspect of that recording that shows that donald trump knew he couldn't share classified information. >> there is another piece of reporting in here that gets at something that the recently -- i don't know if he quit or was fired from the legal team, he talked about a search at bedminster. we don't know about a search, but let me read this paragraph. the recording that is in the hands of the prosecutor show they are not only looking at trump's actions regarding classified documents recovered from mar-a-lago, but also at what happened at bedminster a year aerlier. earlier. the meeting in which trump discussed iran documents after a story about how general milley instructed the joints chiefs to ensure trump issued no legal orders and that he be informed

if there was any concern and that story infuriated trump. what did you make of -- we know there is such an established pattern. everyone knows this. of trump's hyper reactivity to press accounts. particularly generals were in his view acting on behalf of u.s. national security and not his wishes. what do you make of what may be unknown in terms of scope for jack smith? >> yeah, so i think that this is important, the reason why i suggested that donald trump could have made up the existence of this document, because he was responding to these press reports because he was so annoyed with general milley and he wanted to essentially plant the seed with these journalists that milley is lying.

but it also could be if there really is such a document, as i understood it, he gave this interview at bedminister in 2021. and there is some reporting also that on the audio recording you can hear the rustling of papers. that could be the classified information, it could be something else that is he rustling in his hands trying to suggest that he actually has classified information in his hands. but if there is a classified adult and it was at bedminster, that raises a whole host of issues. because as you mentioned trump's former counsel indicated when he -- i thinks of him resigning that he had run into some problems with boris epstein trying to prevent a search of bedminster and of course there is also some recent reporting, again this is speculating here, but there is really recent reporting that one of the employees at mar-a-lago who has apparently been cooperating with jack smith also told jack smith about loading some boxes into a truck to go up to bedminster from mar-a-lago. so what a tangled web we have

here. but again, if there are classified documents or were at bedminster in 2021, that is a whole 'nother location, a whole 'nother problem for the former president. and again, broadens what jack smith is looking at. >> from sue gordon we know trump traveled around the world with a box of trinkets and classified documents. again, i don't know what jack smith knows. i guess we don't know if bedminster was ever searched. >> we don't. the information that we have is that howell was overseeing a request by the government to have trump lawyers and lawyers staff do a search of other locations and then report back what they found. that is obviously a sort of second best way than doing a

search yourself. >> just because a judge and court didn't approve an fbi search doesn't mean that they were not asked to search it themselves. >> exactly. for instance the subpoena served in june didn't say please turnover documents that are at mar-a-lago. it said please turnover all documents bearing classification markings wherever they are. >> and in the 11 months, there were few of those back and forth that include the location. >> you don't care if they were at trump tower or bedminster. the whole point is government documents, they belong with the government. >> and we've now reached the silly part of this conversation where it is so specific to trump. i want to read one more paragraph from this report. again, this is cnn reporting. it is based on accounts told to them by multiple sources. this is the story that gets

trump in a tizzy. it was reported that general milley repeatedly argued against striking iran and was concerned that trump might set in motion a full-scale conflict not justified. milley and others talked trump out of such a drastic action. on the recording in response to the story, trump brings up the documents which he says came from milley. trump told us that if he could show it to people, it would undermine what milley was saying. one source says trump refer to the document as if it is in front of him. several sources say the recording captures the sound of paper rustling as if trump was waving the document around. there is also laughter in the room. and because it is trump, it could have been the lunch menu, right? it could have been something else. but again this pattern of being angry at somebody who he thought should have been loyal to him played out over -- esper was

tired of it because of the same dynamic, it played out over and over and over again. >> but it is a little bit convenient that mark milley oig gave me these documents, i can't show them to you, but they prove that he is lying or was wrong. and i think that it speaks to the sort of trumpy logic where you tell a fanciful tale and try to cover for yourself. i remember this fight with milley and susan glasser writing about it, and it really did occupy a lot of trump's mental energy for a long time. so you could see how he might, you know, fan tab uhe liz about it. >> and again we have this subpoena for liv golf. we'll sneak in a break and then continue to discuss this reporting. n continue to discuss this reporting.

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it's not just possible. it's happening. . my experience is that the former president has his agenda and he will use whatever is at his disposal to advance that. the problem we have here is that depending on what agenda issues forth, he has had at his

disposal for a long period of time information into if he used that information to advance an agenda item, it could have devastating consequences to national security. i can't think of a simpler way to say why i think this moment is so difficult and that is because there is no justification in knowing who he is and that he doesn't fully understand but he may not decide to protect if he wanted to do something different. >> sue gordon chooses her words so carefully and i hang on to every last one of them. all the more loaded in light of this breaking news from cnn. tim miller is joining our conversation. tim, i want to pull you in and read a little bit more from this

story cnn just broke about federal prosecutors having their hot little hands on an audio recording of a summer 2021 meeting with trump allegedly possibly waving around a classified document, at least talking about it, but importantly making clear that he know that he is doesn't have the authority to share it because he doesn't have declassification powers over it. it is all unsurprisingly part of a grudge match maybe happening just in his imagination with chairman of the joint chiefs mark milley. i want to put more data points in the record to miller and then i'll open the floor about the time line. this allegedly takes place in the summer. this is from cnn. meeting took place well before trump's team shipped 15 boxes of classified documents back to the national archives in january 2022. after months of back and forth between trump's team and the records agency. the justice department later obtained additional documents with classified markings from trump seizing more than 100 during a search of mar-a-lago

last august. trump's legal team hired people to search other trump properties including bedminster late last year. investigators from the special counsel's office have also asked in their document handling of obstruction investigation about other scenarios in which trump may have shown other documents such as maps to sources. and they asked several witnesses to share details about trump's anger toward milley. tim miller, your thoughts on what we're learning this afternoon. >> right, i mean, you said in the previous subject that trump is a liar and we don't know all the details yet. i think there are a couple observations for any of us who have watched trump. why he would have kept these sorts of materials. and two things that always came to mind, three things really, one was to just show them off because he's donald trump and he likes trophies and he is a narcissist.

and it was very easy to imagine him at bedminster or mar-a-lago wanting to show off his little trophies or secret things that no one else could see to other people. and another thing that rings true from this story, he is petty. and he very well might have a grudge match in his own mind with mark milley. we know he was upset at mark milley and the fact that he would want to do something to whatever in this insane psychological warfare that is only happening in his brain, try to show mark milley who is boss, that is something else that rings true. the other thing that we've always worried about, no evidence of yet, but more subpoenas on this, whether there is any financial incentive whether these documents must be is interesting to the saudis or et cetera. these are all things that we suspected might be his motivations based on the initial reporting to date. and this recording basically covers the first two. right? that he wanted to show it off, that he was petty, and so this is all -- as we wait for more

details, what we know so far is that we expected and what we've seen from donald trump for eight years now. >> mary, there is something -- again when there is a revelation and most are from investigative journalists that aren't talking to any of us, but the revelation always makes me look at trump's public utterances differently. and there is an interview with sean hannity where hannity goes you would never ask for this stuff to be taken out, would you? and he said oh, yeah, if i wanted to, i could, and if i could, i did. and sean says let's move on. he doesn't ever deny having it, using it or having the right to share it. and in all his legal defenses, they are on earth 4, i don't know what they are at this point. he declassified it, he didn't have it, he moved it, he didn't know where it was. the gap and gulf between what he is saying out loud on tv and

what seems to be an effort at defending help criminally seems to be growing. >> well, you know, what sean hannity did there is what we call classically throwing somebody a softball but rather than hit that softball, trump let it drop on the ground and sean hannity had to try to move on. that is the problem with trump. like you say, he can't stick to one story. there have been so many explanations ever since the search warrant was executed at mar-a-lago. you may have even forgotten the fbi put those documents there, that was one of his excuses. i declassified everything, just simply by thinking it, that was another one. his attorneys tried to come in and say look, in the helter skelter of packing up the white house, they were inadvertently put in boxes. he's rejected that now by saying no, no, i know i had them and i had every right to have them. so in a matter what his a allies

and lawyers try to do to provide defenses, he is not capable of sticking with that story i think because again he thinks that he has the authority do whatever the heck he wants. >> anything that stops the government from looking for this document now if they don't have it yet? we don't know if they have it or not. >> in order to get authority to do a search, you have to establish to a court that you have probable cause that is evidence that establishes probable cause that there is evidence of a crime at the location that you intend to search. so that is a fairly high burden. probable cause of course is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. but they would need to show at this point there is evidence. and remember the recording here even if accurate is about the summer of 2021. so that is going to be viewe as stale. there also was by all accounts

some effort by the trump legal team and investigators to a search at bedminster. we didn't know how successful that was. so it is unclear that they would be able to meet that showing. there is no question that when you -- based on the information that you outlined and also mary outlined about bedminster, there is concern about is everything there. and assure as we're sitting here, you know merrick garland and lisa monaco will authorize the first search and are concerned about the information and what is out there and, you know, is anything being disseminated. i should say just to mary's point about even if this is not true, and it certainly is evidentiary value, it is just unhelpful in terms of the intelligence community to have somebody who is the former president sort of making up

stories about what they have or don't have that is classified or not classified because we rely on our allies in keeping that information secure and not talking about what we may have and not have. that kind of damage is real regardless of whether it is true or not. this is the kind of thing that there is a real embarrassment to the intelligence xhun that i relies on really strong relationships when they go to other countries and say please share with us information that will protect the american public. and they will be saying how do we know that trump won't -- >> we know trump doesn't care about that. do you think any chance that the subpoena for liv golf which is owned by the kingdom of saudi arabia, do you think that he is trying to track by dissemination? >> yes, i think it is about dissemination and also to tim's point about what are the possible motives, whether there

is some sort of financial implication, again i think that this is the kind of sort of in my experience this sort of a ground ball that you run out and maybe there is something there and maybe it is a dry hole. but important to tim's point about the three possible motives, it could be all three and it could apply differently to different pieces of information. but it is often not required for a jury to actually find any particular motive that is not a requirement in the law. it is just a requirement that you show the sort of mens rea, the act and intent. the motive is useful but in this case you may be able to go to the jury and say, you know what, it could be any of these, we have proof of some of them, but you don't actually need to find it in order to file a conviction. >> and should you reach this point in all of this where a jury hears any of this, just extraordinary to know the

inventory of trump's voice on these matters. just remarkable. thank you for bringing this story to our attention. thank you for your time. and be sure to catch andrew and mary on the newest episode of prosecuting donald trump. you can scan that qr code on the screen. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. g and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon. the network she can count on. and now she's got myplan. the game changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants, and save on every perk.

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we'll deal with the debt ceiling. i think things are going as planned. god willing by the time i land congress will have acted, the house will have acted and we'll be one step closer. thank you very much. >> president biden earlier today as the u.s. appears to be on the verge of avoiding a cass trosk catastrophic default on the nation's debt after the house advanced the deal. while members on the far, far right threatened to tank the bill, the president has managed to quietly outmaneuver them at every turn. our next guest put this way, without proportionate recognition, joe biden is not having just a good presidency, he's having one that is historic in its concrete achievements and successes. the fair and balanced types in the media won't characterize it fairly because to do so would feel biased. he side steps controversy, he does not rub his opponents' noses in it every time he

outmaneuvers them. yesterday he stated he was conscious of this, that he was not going to bang the drum about the debt deal because it would imperil it. joining us is least of the deep state radio podcast. tim and molly are still with us. we lost some of our time, but people are so hung up on what you describe so perfectly that they almost just don't cover him at all. just explain what you write about in this brilliant thread. >> well, so the reality is that joe biden on a regular basis is underestimated and on a regular basis he overdelivers compared to people's expectations. he has multiple major pieces of legislation that have gotten through the american rescue plan, bipartisan infrastructure act, the anti- -- "inflation

reduction act," the chips and science act and now seemingly soon this while he's redoing in really substantial ways u.s. foreign policy. and at the same time fighting to preserve democracy. he seems to think, and i think he's right, that the best possible communication strategy is governing. getting the job done. and he believes in the american people and so far he's been right. you know, they elected him, they elected saner people in the last round of congressional elections than were expected, the nutjobs got defeated soundly. and i think his strategy for 2024 is, look, i'm going to do the job, i'm going to deliver, that is going to work. that is real refreshing. >> i think it is refreshing and i don't dispute any of your facts. i just worry that in a political climate where the volumes at 600

all the time speaking under five, do you worry that he will get drowned out? >> well, it is possible. on the other hand he ran against donald trump in 2020 and he beat him. he ran against donald trump candidates who had the cold i'm turned up to 12 in 2022. and the democrats beat them. on a regular basis i think that he's done pretty well. now, democracy is at stake here. i don't think that any of us should be complacent. i think in an age where everybody has a platform on social media, every individual does, people should get out there and get this message out there. i think the white house can always do better. but at the end of the day, having the record delivering for the people really matters a lot. and that is what he is doing. >> joe biden and ron klain really had the maturity and

discipline to play an outside game and not the inside game. and it is so hard, it can go off the rails. i think i agree with david's assessment, it hasn't. but it is risky. how do you assess his handling of undeniable accomplishments in governing? >> and this debt ceiling drama really could have. i mean, you know, there was a lot of anxiety that this could bring about a recession. and what they did which i think was very smart, they had the director went in there and negotiated and they have a lot of relationships both of those people with congress on the left and the right. and you know, a lot of people in congress on the left and right. they named a government compromise. wasn't perfect. didn't make everyone happy. wasn't going to. but they did it, and he was very quiet. and he really -- you'll notice they're still very quiet. >> there are no stories, and i'm told that's by design.

>> right. going to vote tonight in the house. going the vote in the senate. i think everyone's going to have their fingers crossed. the stakes could not be higher, and there are certainly people in this republican party who are the burn it down caucus who really do want to burn it all down. >> tim, burn it all down was the -- if trump -- said burn it all down. >> for sure. i think that it's worth just recognizing for accuracy here, i would 100% endorse everything david said. he didn't mention guns. exceeded my expectations. mostly not because of my assessment of joe biden but whether the republican party, you were able to work with them at all. and he has brought a couple people across the line. he was mocked by pundits and people on the left who said he wouldn't work with anybody, and he has. there have been certain issues where he's worked with them. i think this is another great job. it's worth mentioning -- i don't know if i've ever complimented

kevin mccarthy on msnbc, expectations are low, but he exceeded my expectations, too. he was a grownup. one cheer for kevin mccarthy. other times there have been plenty of boos. this is why this is so fragile, to your point about burning it down. still there's a couple of dozen people in the house republican congress that wanted to default. still tim scott who's in the senate who's supposedly the reasonable republican running in 2024 says he's not going to vote for this. you still have a party with a ton of actors whose incentives are to completely burn the house down and for joe biden working with kevin mccarthy to let cooler heads prevail once again is a massive kudos to them. >> thank you so much. tim miller and molly, thank you for spending time with us today. another break. we'll be right back. y. another break. we'll be right back.

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checked i think it should be the media. >> should have been enough, right? that was a little sampling. we could have gone on for days. former white house press secretary kayleigh mcenany defending the president with absurd lies she told from the white house podium. trump's now attacking her, that person, his one-time extremely loyal press secretary turned fox host. dragging her, brutally, on his platform, truth social is what it's called. accusing her of undershelling the gap between him and ron desantis in iowa polling by nine points. leaves trump in a double digit lead. quote, she knew the number was corrected upwards by the people that did the follow. they can have her.

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