votes, that would be a massive underperformance -- for kevin mccarthy. his job might even be in danger. but if they do deliver that 150 or more, i think mccarthy is going to be fine. image some of the hard right republicans, who have previously driven his job, trying to prevent him from getting get the gavel in the first place, were very queasy last night, were very mom last night when i asked him, do you think mccarthy lose should lose their job over this? a number of them told-ing no, i'm voting no, but mccarthy should say. >> they've all got podcast hosts and newsmax fill in host gigs that they have to get to. they don't have time to get rid of him and do. sahil kapur, thank you so much for your reporting. i appreciate it. >> thanks, chris. >> they are not going to get rid of mccarthy. you think they want that job? that is all in on this wednesday night. up next, democratic leader, hakeem jeffries, joins alex wagner tonight, which starts right now. good evening, alex. >> we have hakeem jeffries, i think we have a motive vote imminently. we also have tim kaine, who is also the -- >> i'm glad you booked him because man, was he hot today? in my home, right to be.

>> did you say am i hope? >> in my humble opinion. >> do you pronounce it lol or lol? >> i say in my humble opinion, or i laugh out loud, but i appreciate the text shorthand. >> in my honest opinion. >> i will be sure to take it up with senator tim kaine. he watches this vote on the house floor, thank you, buddy. and that is it your home for joining us this evening. right now, we are, as i just said, to chris hayes, watching the house of, where any moment, the bill to avoid catastrophic default is about to face the vote on the house floor. the dynamic here, what you will see unfold tonight, the dynamic, that dynamic, was set earlier today, when democrats had to bail out republicans on a procedural vote that republicans claim they could pass on their very own. prior to that vote, politico reported, when asked if the gop would need democratic help to pass this procedural measure, majority whip, tom emmer, said,

republicans are the ones who are running this place and republicans will pass the bills, and that is what we are doing. but in the end, republicans did not have the votes to pass that measure on their own. they needed 52 democrats to bail them out. now, both sides have faced opposition to voting for this deal. conservatives say it does not go nearly far enough. progressives have argued that the bills impact on the poor and the working class is too severe. but the character of that opposition is remarkably different. take, for instance, marjorie taylor greene. the fringe conservative who's now landed herself a place as one of speaker mccarthy's top allies. today, congresswoman taylor greene told reporters that she was leaning toward voting yes on this bill, while also repeatedly describing the deal as an expletive sandwich. and also taking that particular metaphor weight further than she needed to. >> so,

>> marjorie taylor greene thinks this deal is a really very disgusting sandwich, but she was willing to eat that really very disgusting sandwich, as long as it came with some good sides, okay. and the sides she wants are a bunch of things that we are never going to get added to this bill before it reached the house floor. also, she would like desert, which, in this case, means impeaching someone, anyone. just a little impeachment as a treat. that, alone, should tell you everything you need to know about the way conservatives have been mounting opposition to this bill. what might best be turned, alarmingly delusional. by contrast, democrats remain united around passing this bill and even avoiding default, even as some of them voice their

opposition to it. democratic leader, hakeem jeffries, made that very clear in his speech on the house floor, just moments ago. >> house democrats were clear that we will not allow extreme maga republicans to default on our debt, crash the economy, but trigger a job-killing recession. democrats put people over politics. even though we strongly disagree with your reckless policies. president biden understood, despite the hostage taking situation that you unnecessarily thrust the country into, that we had an obligation, irresponsibility, to avoid a catastrophic default. >> joining me now is the man himself, house democratic leader, hakeem jeffries, of new york. congressman, thank you very, very much for being here. i am told that voting has begun, so we will not keep you too long, but i've got to ask you,

on this network last night, you said kevin mccarthy needs to have 150 republican votes. do you think he has those votes, as of this moment? >> that actually remains to be seen. but it's still our expectation that house republicans should put up at least 150 votes, approximately two thirds of their conference, in connection with an agreement that they, themselves, negotiated. we will see what occurs on the house floor, but house democrats remain committed to ensuring that we avoid a catastrophic default because we understand the consequences, there would be devastating for everyday americans, for working families, for middle class folks, for those who aspire to be part of the middle class, for the poor, the sick, and the afflicted, for the people that we fight for each and every day. so, we are going to do our part, certainly, my hope that the extreme maga republicans do their part as well. >> did speaker mccarthy ever reach out to you? he seems to be very much banking on democratic support

here and quite a bit of it. have you talked to him? >> we talk often, but we have not talked about specific numbers. however, i continue to make the point publicly and in my private conversations with a wide variety of people on the other side of the aisle that is our expectation that in order to get out of this manufactured gop default crisis, we have got to proceed in a common sense, bipartisan way. and that remains, means democratic votes, and that means republican votes, and that's hopefully what we will see on the house floor in a few moments. >> earlier today, during rules vote, you flashed a green card. i don't think we have a visual of it, but it was a signal to democrats that they could start voting. in support of a bill that was supposed to pass, or in support of a provision, effectively, that was supposed to pass with only republican support. is something similar in place for tonight, if and when republicans don't get that 150 vote threshold?

>> well, we've said from the very beginning, across the caucus, that we want to make sure that we protect every day americans from the harmful consequences of our economy crashing, which many extreme maga republicans from the very beginning seemed determined to bring about. in part, as i've said, because they think it will be in their own political interest in 2024. that's incredibly irresponsible. earlier today, we had the rescue house republicans from their own extremism, and we are prepared to make sure that we rescued the economy from a catastrophic default. we will see what that ultimately looks like, in terms of numbers, but we are going to do our part in supporting the leadership of president joe biden. we are thankful that he managed to arrive at a resolution that protected social security, protected medicare, protected medicaid, protected veterans, protected the very important climate change provisions in the context of the inflation reduction act, protected education, protected public

safety, and protected the american people, from the extreme maga republican proposed cuts that would have hurt the health, the safety, and the economic well-being of the american people. how are you feeling about, well i should ask you, what are your -- what are your caucus members, what do democrats telling you. as they have, to pull something out -- they wanted nothing to do with to begin with. what is the general sentiment inside the democratic caucus right now? >> the sentiment is that we get through this moment, and will continue to support our president, i believe that will be a strong democratic vote in support of the resolution. that he has negotiated, that we some democrats who may vote against the bill on the floor, but everyone is unified in support of president biden's leadership, we're gonna get through this moment. we're gonna avoid this devastating default. we're gonna continue to push back against republican extremism. and as we emerge from this

moment, worked to build upon the incredible success and accomplishments and the leadership, speaker pelosi, senate democrats, house democrats, president biden in the last congress. and building an economy from the middle out, and from the bottom up. and pushing back against the effort to simply always benefit the wealthy, the well off and the bill connected. which is the policy agenda of the extreme maga republicans on the other side of the aisle. >> you've invoked the president a number of times, do you have a message for the white house, as they contemplate whether to take the debt ceiling off the table entirely as a legislative cudgel? >> it's the right thing to do for the american people, i think once we emerge from this manufactured gop crisis, one of the things that all we should, do legislatively here in the united states congress, administratively, legally, is to explore all options so that we can remove this weaponized vehicle to hold the american

people and the economy hostage. an incredibly irresponsible ways. if not for the leadership of president biden, democrats and the house and in the senate holding together we might even be in a very different situation at this moment. and we can't afford to allow extremists to be able to continue to utilize the debt ceiling to hold the american people hostage moving forward and we should look at all opportunities to stop that from ever happening again. >> yeah, i have to ask you. as you talk about the extremists, we played a little bit of sound from marjorie taylor greene who earlier said, that in exchange for support for this bill, she effectively wants someone to be impeached. you think kevin mccarthy's gonna have to pay the tab on this? which is to say, kowtow to the most conservative members of his conference in the days to come? are you at all concerned about what concessions he might have to make to them, in order to hold on to the speakers gavel, for example? >>, well the american people

have continued to be concerned with the extremists that have been on full display, and in many ways, unleashed. marjorie taylor greene is front and center as a leader of the house republican conference. so is george santos, a default on america act passed with the support of george santos. and you've got individuals who are totally out of control, like santos, unfit to serve in united states congress. but who have become an important part of the fabric of what the modern day house republicans represent. that's unfortunate. as democrats, we're gonna continue to try to find common ground, whenever and wherever possible. to put people over policy, do the right thing for the american people. but we will always push back against the extremism of, whenever, and wherever necessary. >> what are you think a message to the american people should be about the house republican conference right now. as they're trying to make sense of this, i think democrats have done a very decent job of

showing the country how they are doing the work, the hard work, of governing. and keeping the country's economy in safe hands. what should the message be, how should they think about what speaker mccarthy has done here, and the role he plays in guiding his party forward? >> what will continue to see is on, the one hand, house democrats, senate democrats, president biden. tim extreme. team normal. tim normal. team get stuff done for everyday america. against team extreme. on the other side of the aisle. tim reasonable, house democrats. team normal. versus team extreme. on the other side of the aisle. >> it's easy to remember, it rhymes. it also seems to be true. democratic leader, hakeem jeffries, a very, very busy man tonight. i am deeply appreciative of your time. thanks and good luck out there. >> thank you very much. >> now, if the house passes this debt ceiling bill, the bill then goes to the senate,

where any single senator has the power to bring this whole process to a halt. and well the consensus seems to be in favor of passing the bill in the house, senators and in the senate, senators from both parties, are unhappy with certain aspects of this deal. and i've already said they will introduce amendments to it. that means, essentially, that these senators want to have four votes. in those four votes, they can voice their concerns. which, in the, and could eat a precious debate time and in the very worst-case scenario, it could end up sending the whole bill back to the house. that would almost certainly push the house passage of this bill put far beyond june 5th, which is the drop dead date for the u.s. to avoid default. right now, senate leader chuck schumer and mitch mcconnell are reportedly holding private meetings and they are working the phones. they're also publicly asking senators not to risk everything that has been negotiated over amendments. >> i can tell you what i hope happens. that those who have amendments,

if given votes, will yield back time. so that we can finish this thursday or friday. we >> can't send anything back to the house. . that would risk, default plaintive. >> joining us now, senator tim kaine, democrat of virginia. senator cain, thank you so much for joining me tonight. i know that you have not been happy about certain elements of this bill. are you going to support it in the end? when it comes to the senate? >> alex, i have an amendment filed to block a provision in the bill, completely unrelated to the debt ceiling. that would greenlight a very controversial pipeline in virginia. that no one talk to us about, no one conferred with virginians about, they just dropped it into the bill. look, we do amendments all the time in the senate, i've had bills re-done multiple amendments a day, i'm insisting

on an amendment to strip out approving the mountain valley pipeline. this is a pipeline that should have to go through normal permitting processes. sadly, the deal that was struck gives this a greenlight, exams it from all the normal permitting processes. and to build a pipeline, you have to take people's land. this runs through appalachian virginia, some of my poorest, hardest hit, residents. they don't have their land taken. and they definitely don't want congress putting our thumb on the scale to take away the power of agencies in courts to review whether it's a good idea or not. so, i've got an amendment to say, let's strip out this provision. i want to vote on it. it's not gonna delay us, we can do an amendment vote immediately. and i guarantee, if this amendment were to pass, and it were to go back to the house, nobody in the house is voting for or against this bill. because of the green light of the mountain valley pipeline. it's not fatal to the bill.

it's not gonna delay. and they put it in the bill, and deals with virginia, they didn't ask me about it. i'm fighting for virginians or gonna lose their land and i want to vote on my amendment. >> are you at all concerned that the timing of that might push this past june 1st, that mid -- june 5th, that might be the dropped a date for the u.s. avoiding catastrophic consequences? >> alex, absolutely not. i think the house is gonna pass this bill and give it to us tonight. i have been involved in bills where i've been the sponsor, where we've done seven or eight amendment votes in a day. there's gonna be some republican amendment votes in the senate, i believe. if we will allow republicans to offer amendments, i want an amendment on my provision stripped in mountain vibrantly pipeline. all of what the result. you know, if i can convince my colleagues, great. if i can't convince my

colleagues, that's on me. but i don't think anybody should cut a deal that affects virginians, particularly, in the hardest hit part of our state. on a really important controversial project, without reaching out to us. i also think stripping, giving a greenlight to one project in the united states and saying, it doesn't have to go through a normal permitting rules? that just opens the door to really big problems in the future. any big corporation that is unhappy with the pace of their approvals and regulatory environment, that's unhappy with what courts are doing, can just go to congress and say, hey, let us bypass you. everyday people don't get that deal. everyday people don't get to bypass the courts and have congress take a magic wand and give them what they want. we shouldn't do it for a wealthy company either. >> for those who are following along at home here, there are

217 votes, 218, this is now i believe passed the house. that is a big deal for people who have been watching the short but tortured history of these debt ceiling negotiations. senator cain, i have to ask you, and i want to talk and a little bit more detail about the mountain valley pipeline and why the white house did not bring you into those negotiations. but if you're amendment fails, are you prepared to vote yes on this? which is now assuredly come into the senate in the next day or two? >> my only goal right now, alex, i want to get a vote on my amendment. >> okay. >> they cut a deal affecting virginia that even talking to us. it hits the hardest hit, toughest, poorest, most challenged part of my state. it affects people, and it takes their land. to build a pipeline, you have to take people's land. in this part of virginia, appalachia, people don't have a

lot, sometimes land is what they've got. all that they've got. they've had it for generations. and they don't want to give it up to a massive corporation that's worth millions that wants to make billions more by taking their land. if there were a decision by regulatory agencies that we needed, that's one thing. this thing has been star crossed from the start. because the companies made a lot of mistakes. because the previous administration, the trump administration, was handing out environmental permits like they were visitors passes. so the senate gallery, rather than making the companies really do the work that they should do. i'm not going to abandon the virginians who have fought to protect their land and just say, fine, the administration cut a deal without me. i guess i've got a whistle and go along. anybody who thinks that i will do that, they have not been paying attention to the fact that i have been a public servant at the local state and

federal level for 28 years. going along with whatever somebody tells me to do, it's not what i do. >> i have to ask, okay, the reporting we have out of the washington post, the reason the mountain valley pipeline in the expedited processing of it is in this debt ceiling negotiation, in this bill, is because the white house, effectively, agreed to put the mountain valley pipeline in a separate bill, after they secured joe manchin's vote for the inflation reduction act. that was a huge part of this administration's legacy, that was a signal piece of the presidents -- that is the president's legislative record in many ways. other than the infrastructure act. do you see any sense, in the deal making that had to happen behind closed doors with joe manchin in order to secure his vote on a huge piece of legislation with profound effects on the american economy, a lot of things that democrats support, do you understand the negotiation that had to happen there?

what is your reaction to that reporting? >> alex, i think that reporting is true. i understand it. but to put it in the debt ceiling? to put it in the bill where we're on the precipice of america defaulting on its credit for the first time in history? that's not what the white house agreed to. they agreed to joe, if you vote on the i.r.a., will try to make this happen. we'll put it in many bills. but i never should have put it in a debt ceiling bill. they never should've put it in a bill where americans at the precipice of default. they could've put it in a permitting reform bill. they could've put it in energy appropriations bill at the end of the year. putting in a debt ceiling? this is a menu fractured issue, there's bipartisan interest right now in permitting reform. i'm a supporter of permitting reform. i support the permitting reform

portions of this bill, other than the mountain valley pipeline. we could've gotten this done according to -- an regular order. for some reason, they decided to drop mountain valley pipeline in the midst of a completely unrelated bill, we've got to save america's full faith and credit and will drop mountain valley pipeline in that? who are these owners of this company that think they're that important? they're so important that they get to write the terms of their own deal, eliminating all administrative and judicial review? and get big to be on the part of the debt ceiling deal? give me a break. give me a break. >> senator, we hope to hear much more from you on this, the ball is now in your court, because this bill has passed the house, making its way over to the senate. senator tim kaine. >> i'm glad it's in my court. >> it is most certainly in your court, more ways than one. thank you so much for joining me tonight, it's really good to

hear your thoughts on this. every vote is critical. as we know in the senate, and you seem to have some deep reservations about what is in this, we really appreciate your time. >> thanks, alex. >> as i mentioned just moments ago, the house has now secured at least 300 votes, which is more than enough to pass the debt ceiling bill through the lower chamber. we're gonna have more analysis on this breaking news this evening. we just need to go away for a very quick break, please, stay with us. with us.

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catastrophic default on our nation's debt has now passed in the house of representatives. the final vote was 314 to 117. that bill appears poised to head to the senate, where senators face a very tight deadline to push the bill through, and avoid sending the nation into an economic crisis. i want to bring into the conversation, jen psaki, former white house press secretary and host of inside with jim psaki on msnbc. also with us is peter baker, white house correspondent in the new york times. jen, i must ask you, first, how you look at democratic unity in this moment? and does that surprise you? does that not surprising? we just heard from senator tim kaine, obviously quite incensed about the inclusion of the mountain valley pipeline and the debt ceiling deal. but other than him, democrats

have basically fallen in line, i think 165 in the house voted for passage of this bill. >> that's right, alex. first of all, i think it tells you and shows you that democrats do not want to default. many of them are holding their nose, many of them have been vocal about this. about components of this debt limit package that they don't like. whether it is work requirements, people of a certain age, or less funding to go after people who don't pay their taxes, they don't like all those pieces. there are some who voted against it, and said they were going to vote against it because they don't think there should be a negotiation over the debt limit. and there shouldn't be. ultimately, they are being the adults in the room here. by preventing the country from defaulting, because the impact on people across the country would be dramatic, catastrophic, every possible word. not surprised at all by senator cain, i am a virginian myself. by senator cain's opposition to

the pipeline. he's been opposed to that for sometime. it's not a secret that this was something that senator manchin kind of got in a deal. but senator cain is doing what any politician should do, and speaking out against the things that he's opposed to, at the same time, he is not going to vote against this, i bet. and allow the country to default. he's just being vocal as elected officials can be. >> peter, you wrote a great analysis of the way in which president biden negotiated this, which was largely behind closed doors. and i think raised some potential concern among democrats, about what he would potentially give away to republicans. now that the dust has settled, and we see what was given and what was not given, in the scope of what republicans actually got, how do you think this affects biden's legacy as a deal maker and a standing with a democratic caucus in the house? and the senate as well? >> look, president biden had a

different imperative here than some house democrats. he wants to burnish's reputation, as a bipartisan leader. a leader of the whole country. he worked on that his first two years in office. he got the infrastructure bill through, republican votes the chips act, the semiconductor act, with republican votes, the toxic burn pits for care for veterans. bipartisan vote. this is central to his identity. jen psaki knows this better than i do. he wants to be seen as somebody who can still reach across the aisle, even in a deeply polarized time. that's important to him. for a lot of house democrats, that's not necessarily the first priority, for them, especially the more progressive democrats. they're more concerned about the things he gave away. he did give away some things, he probably had no choice. that's the way a compromise works. so, they registered their complaint. whether in their votes to die, or even just in press conferences in statements. that doesn't mean that this isn't a win for president biden i think it probably is. this is a result he would've wanted. the result where both parties ultimately hold hands, take some of the they don't

necessarily like, but a great move on. get the data that ceiling behind them. protect the economy and the accomplishments of his first two years. i didn't get any new things, democrats, in this, they got an increase in the wealthy tax action, or minimum wage or anything like that, what they did was protect most of the gains that they felt they got last two years, when they were in charge. >> yeah, i want to add a caveat to that, jen, as we try to who got more, who got less. the democrats -- >> wind column. >> the democrats did actually get anything, they protected things. which seems like they didn't get much, given the fact the republicans were willing to shoot the hostage, saving the nations economy seems like a pretty big get, though it's not a democratic, a specifically partisan priority. >> right. >> given the asymmetry there, what republicans got wasn't much, but it was still something more than the status quo, how should the white house think about future negotiations,

and do you think they'll take it off the table, the debt ceiling, entirely if you're joe biden and this white house? >> yeah, i mean, i agree with what peter said, of course. that joe biden is someone who likes to pursue bipartisan deals. i wouldn't say this is a bipartisan deal. he's framing behind the resolute desk. this was just about avoiding default. this case, as you said, alex, was about preventing the economy from going into a catastrophic downward spiral. this wasn't about really getting much, aside from preventing that. now, republicans control the house, that's a reality, elections have consequences, i would say that the pieces of the bill, and the final deal here, even if you look, alex, at the work requirements, which many democrats don't like, and president biden does not like, i don't think most democrats like. sunsets at the end of 2024, even the cbo scored it, and you could argue whether this is accurate or not. as more people being added to snap benefits. now, there are older americans who will no longer be eligible,

homeless and veterans will be. is that a win? i don't know. it's not even good policy. but it is not what the house bill was originally. the biggest loss, alex, is probably the irs funding. because it is very hard to get funding for the irs, that's not politically popular for anyone. and that is funding that was going to be in there to help go after people who avoided taxes, make digital filing easier. it's gonna be hard to get that back. but i think, at this point, the president, the white house, they're just relieved, the senate is gonna pass this, because they're more responsible body, on both sides, with some exceptions, then the house is in this regard. and i think they're relieved, they're ready to move forward. >> peter, do you have any sense, the biden administration has been very -- plain than very close to the rest, as far as the 14th amendment. or other sort of existential methods by which he would get rid of the debt ceiling. do you have a sense that there

is, in the wake of this, if it does pass the senate, as it is expected to, that there is an appetite for taking this off the table entirely. they will pursue that behind closed doors? or through the courts, or by whatever means are necessary? >> yeah, that's a good question. look, president biden's institution -- instinctively, he is nervous, or not nervous, but wary of a challenging long-standing convention, long-standing conventions, of course, there is a debt ceiling by law. the president doesn't have the constitutional authority, simply ignore. he told us in the end, it was about room just other day, even as he announced the state with kevin mccarthy, he's got a look at this, he says, sometimes later this year, perhaps next year. that he does want to continue to pursue a conversation about this. whether we can avoid this kind of hostage taking or running of up to the cliff sort of scenario. again in the future. he anticipates, the core challenge, if you were to do, it which is why run reason at least, he says he didn't do this time, he did want to take a chance, but and still leave the country in default. while this is being litigated.

it's a question about whether he's willing to take on that issue. i don't know, i'm a little skeptical, i think it's not in his nature. to push that boundary, if he doesn't have to. but he may be, at some, point frustrated have to say, i don't have to deal with this in a second term. if i win reelection, let's think about doing it now. before we get to that point. >> yeah, i would just say, for the institutionalist, our president, preserving the full faith and credit of the united states is a norm worth preserving. that too is an institution. jen psaki, peter baker, thank you for joining me tonight. really appreciate your time. >> thank, you alex. >> mitch mcconnell has now weighed in on the house passage of the debt ceiling saying now it is the senate's turn to pass this agreement without delay. so, that is a good indicator of what may happen in the upper chamber. still to come tonight, the price for republicans to act responsibly on u.s. debt is going to fall on some of the shoulders of neediest americans.

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students, community groups. john: it's shared decision-making with parents. they're saying that these are the priorities that they want to see for their kids. wendy: it allows us to create the school that our students deserve. rafael: community schools are innovative, and they're working. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. speaker kevin mccarthy have been shepherding republican lawmakers away from the mutually short description of defaulting on our national debt, some republicans have been strategically working against them, in order to get a leg up on the 2024 presidential campaign trail, where the threat of chaos is apparently a useful thing. this afternoon it was florida

governor ron desantis caustic this stone in iowa. >> we were careening towards bankruptcy before that that deal, and this country is still careening toward bankruptcy after that that deal. >> yesterday, entrepreneur revealed that ramaswamy also -- >> if i were in congress, i know it is a difficult thing to say but i would hold the line and vote against it. >> earlier this month we heard a little bit from donald trump. >> i say to the republicans out there, congressman, senators, if they don't give you massive cuts you are going to have to do a default. >> and moments ago, just after the bill passed, we got a little more from the former president, who sat on a radio show this evening, well, it is what it is. it has passed and i guess it knew it was going to pass. but we will get it properly picks in two years. remember as president mike pence gave thumbs down to the bill yesterday, saying in a statement, the american people deserve better. and trump's former ewan

investor nikki haley has been using the issue to sway her top opponents, noting that in 2018, congressman desantis voted for a bill that increase the debt ceiling and that president trump also an opponent in 2024, signed into law. earlier today, senator tim scott was asked if he would support this current bill, and this was his answer. >> short answer is no. >> we will soon see whether that no vote plays differently in the senate than it does on the campaign trail. now that the house has passed that that deal, the ball is quite literally in senator scott's court for mr. scott, it cannot just be a 2024 campaign line. still more to come on this busy, this very busy night of news, with bombshell reporting that key evidence in the mar-a-lago investigation is all on tape. yes, really. we will have more on that just ahead. that just ahead. but stephanie got inspire, an implanted device

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(vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. >> of all of the tell-all to come out of the trump administration, turns out this one may actually be the most important one. this is former trump chief of staff mark meadows as mad more. it is called the chiefs chief. as a book, it was sort of a flop, it's a less than 22,000 copies, but as a piece of evidence, well, the research that went into this buff might be key to want to special counsel's investigations. cnn reports tonight that in the

center of 2021, two people working on the chiefs chiefs ghost rioters met with former president trump at his -- golf club and one of trump's aides recorded that meeting. this was a full year before trump began giving the classified documents he took with him back to the federal government. but this recording reportedly has trump on tape talking about classified documents he still had and cnn reports that special counsel jack smith now has this type. now, nbc news has not yet independently verified this reporting and cnn has not actually heard the tape, they've only had it described to them by multiple sources. but on the recording trump reportedly acknowledges he held on to a classified pentagon document about a potential attack on iran. and then there is this, sort of unbelievably, sources -- recording captures the sound of paper or rustling as if trump

were weaving the document around. on the tape, the dock -- saying that his forces tell him that this document was classified as secret level, the kind of document that the doj would be inclined to bring charges for. -- typically tape meetings between trump and journalists because trump didn't trust journalists. little reports that that aid had her laptop and her devices imaged earlier this year so jack smith likely has even more tapes. and if all of that were not bad enough, this tape also reportedly blows up one of trump's primary defenses that he has been trying to lay out for himself. quote, on the recording, trump's comments suggest he would like to share the information -- post presidency to declassify records. acknowledgment of that in his own words and on tape, more than a year before trump

started claiming that he could declassified documents just by thinking about them. it feels huge. something tells me more people will end up listening to this tape then then reading mark meadows actual book. joining us now is mary mccord, former assistant attorney general for national security at the department of justice and current executive director of georgetown law's institute for constitutional advocacy and protection. mary, thank you for being with us tonight. what, in your mind, does this tape, and the existence of it, due to trump's defense? >> well, i think it makes clear that he is on, you know, a recording. you know the power in front of juries of actually listening to a defendant's own words on of people courting, it sounds like he pretty much acknowledged having classified information, which, another, times he and his lawyers have suggested that he had no knowledge that, classified information was taken from the white house. it also shows that he is aware

he can't share classified information. he pointedly seems to say, courting to the recording, that, you know, i have this information about general milley's plans to attack iran and i sure wish i could show it to you, but i can't do that, because it is classified. now, i will note that i think there is a decent possibility that the former president was simply making up that he had classified information written by general milley, because the reporting also indicates he was pretty mad at general milley. he had this interview at -- reuters that were working on mark meadows's's book, very shortly after -- general -- trump, not to do some sort of attack on iran, and he was pretty aggravated about that report, according to what i have read today in cnn and other news outlets. and, you know, this could very much be another case of the

former president being petty, and wanting to suggest to these rioters, i've got something that would disprove a general milley, but i can't share it because it is classified. now, general milley knows, and probably jack smith knows, what they're the real document exists. the real document exists, that would certainly put him in additional legal jeopardy, in terms of his criminal culpability from his handling of classified documents. but even if the document doesn't exist, even if he were making it up, it still shows his intent and his knowledge that he had classified information, and he wasn't supposed to, in that he knows that you can't share classified information with -- -- trump is using it as a prop, but if it would suspend -- concerts for a moment and walk with me through the timeline if indeed -- classified documents in

bedminster in 2021. that would wrap radically shift our understanding of how and where the documents removed and -- obstruction case would be built, but it? not >> absolutely. because there are so many varying stories about how classified documents came to be in trump's possession, but even one of the most predominant stories is that there were a loaded into document boxes when they were -- mar-a-lago and they were stored in that storage unit in mar-a-lago. and if there were other documents in bedminster, how did they get there? that is inconsistent with the story about where things were moved when they packed up the white house. that means either they had gotten there are some previous time, to packing up the white house, or they came after the white house was packed up. if they were moved to bedminster after the white house was backed up, the question is why, and what is the timing of that. and we know there are some reporting recently about boxes being loaded at mar-a-lago into

a truck to be taken to bedminster. we don't know what was in those but the boxes. we also know that there has been some reporting recently that one of the former presidents previous attorney's, mr. parlatore, resigned in part because of various infighting, including boris epstein trying to stand in the way of searching bedminster so, you know, we don't know anything for sure the timing would certainly lead a prosecutor, and i was a prosecutor for a very long time, to be suspicious about how classified documents might have gotten covid minister, and if they were moved there after the national archives began requesting that all presidential records be returned to the national archives. >> it also gives us a window into trump's potential motivation for doing all of this, which would necessarily be legally that meaningful, but in terms of the narrative or the optics of all of this, for building a case that the public has to get on board with, that

would seem to be useful, right? >> yeah. motive, again, like you said it is not really gully required by as a prosecutor, when you go to trial in front of a jury, you want to be able to explain why. why is it that the defendant did what you are claiming, through the evidence, you are listening, that he did. so with the former president, motive could be multiple things. he just loved to, for the bragging power of it, to be able to say he has got classified documents think about the king jong-un letters that he famously took with him. but he also is petty. and he may very well have just wanted to use this document to try to get back at general milley. or he could have a more nefarious motive, and it could be all of those things. so, understanding the why of it is an important part of the story, if in fact there is going to be an indictment and ultimately, trial. >> lots trickling out about this case, including maybe even

a potential indictment. we will see. mary mccord, former assistant attorney general for national security at the doj, mary, it is always good to see you. thanks so much for your time. >> thank you. >> we will be right back. >> we will be right back but now that i got the inspire implant, it's making me think of doing other things i've been putting off. like removing that tattoo of your first wife's name. inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com.

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