>> and this is the last night for -- working on the show. he has been an invaluable producer here at the last word, and is moving on to the presidential campaign trail to help cover the campaign for this network. he will no doubt emerge from that as a future star of this network. tonight's last word is -- . where any moment the bill to avoid catastrophic default is about to face a vote on the house floor. the dynamic here, what you will see unfold tonight, the dynamic, that dynamwalk was set earlier

today when democrats had to bail out republicans on a procedural vote that republicans claim they could pass on their very own. prior to that vote politico reported when asked if the gop would needd democratic help to pass this procedural measure, majority whip tom emmer said republicans are the ones running this place, and republicans will pass thean bills, and that's wh we are doing. but in the end republicans did not have the votes to pass that measure on their own. they needed 52 democrats to bail them out. now, both sides have faced opposition to voting to this deal. conservatives say it does not go nearly fars enough. progressives have argued the bill's impact on the poor and working class is too severe. but the character of that opposition is remarkably different. take for instance marjorie taylor greene, the fringe conservative for this now landed herself a place as one of speaker mccarthy's top allies.

told she told reporters she was leaning towards voting for this bill while also calling the deal an expletive sandwich and also taking that metaphor way further than she needed to. >> one of the sides so to speak that i would like to see with this [ bleep ] sandwich is a way to wipeout the 87,000 irs agents. we need a balanced budget that's for sure,nc but we need desert. i'm a dessert girl, everyone loves dessert, and that's impeachment. everyone needs to be impeached. >> marjory taylor thinks the deal is disgusting sandwich but she was willing to eat it as long as it came with good sides. and the sides she wanted would never reach the house floor, and also she'd like dessert, which in this case means impeaching someone, anyone, just a little

impeachment as a treat. that alone should tell you everything you need to know about the way conservatives have been mounting opposition to this bill, that might best be termed alarmingly delusional. by contrast democrats remain united on passing this bill and avoiding default even as some voiced opposition to. democrat hakeem jeffries made that very clear in a speech on the house floor just moments ago. >> house democrats were clear that we will not allow extreme maga republicans to default on ourde debt, crash the economy, trigger a job killing recession. democrats put people over politics. even though we strongly disagree with the reckless policies, president biden understood despite the hostage taking situation that you'll unnecessarily thrust the country

into, that we had an obligation, a responsibility to avoid a catastrophic default. >> joining me now is the man himself, housean democratic lear hakeem jeffries of new york. congressman, thank you very,k. very much for being here. i am told that voting has begun, so we'll not keep you too long. i've got to ask you on this network last night you said mccarthy needs to have 150 republican votes.ee do you think he has those votes as of this moment? >> well, that actually remains to be seen, but it's still our expectation that house republicans shouldio put up at least 150 votes, approximately two-thirds of their conference in connection with an agreement that they themselves negotiated. we'll see what occurs on the house floor, but house democrats remain committed to ensuring that we avoid a catastrophic default because we understand the consequences will be devastating for everyday

americans, middle class folks and those aspiring to be the middle class, but the people we fight for each and every day, so we're going to do our part. certainly my hope the extreme maga republicans do their part as well. >> did speaker mccarthy ever reach out to you? he seems to be very much banking on democratic support here and quite a bit of it. have you talked to him? >> we talk to him but have not talked specific numbers. i continue to make my point publicly and with people on the othernd side of the aisle it's r expectation in order to get out of this manufactured gop default crisis we've got to proceed in a bipartisan d way, and that republicans democrats votes and that means republican votes, anb that's hopefully what we'll see on the house floor in a few moments. >> earlier today during a rules vote you flashed a green card. i don't think we have a visual of it, but it was a signal to

democrats that they could start voting in support of a bill that was supposed to pass -- in support of a provision effectively that was supposed tt pass with only republican support. is something similar in place tonight if and when republicans don't meet that 150 vote threshold? >> well, we've said from the very beginning across the caucus that we want a to make sure tha we protect everyday americans from the harmful consequences of our economy crashing, which many extreme maga republicans from theca beginning seem determinedo bring out. in part because they said they think it would be in their own pliical interests in 2024. earlier today we had to res house republicans from their own extremism and we're prepared to rescue the economy from a catastrophic default. we'll see what that ultimately looks like in terms of numbers, but we are going to do our part in supporting the leadership of

president joe biden. we're thankful he managed to arrive at a resolution that protected medicare, protected veterans,pr protected the important provisions inve the context ofns the inflation reduction act, protected ed education, protected public safety, and protected the american people from the extreme maga republican proposed cuts that would have hurt the health, the safety, and the economic well-being of the american people. >> how are you feeling about -- well, i should ask you what do your caucus members tell you as you sayer they have to be the adults in the room here, basically pull something across the finish line they wanted nothing to do with to begin with? what is the sentiment inside the democratic caucus now? >> dewell, the sentiment is we' got to get through this moment, and we'll continue to support ourl president. i believeou there will be a strg

democratic vote in support of the resolution that he has negotiated. there'll be some democrats who may vote against the bill on the floor, but everyone is unified inry support of president biden leadership.n' we're going to get through this moment. we're going to avoid this devastating default. we're going to continue to push back against republican ck extremism, and as we emerge from this moment, work to build upon the incredible success and accomplishments under the s leadership of speaker pelosi and senate democrats, house democrats, president biden and the last congress in building an economy from the middle out and the bottom up and pushing back against the effort to simply always benefit the wealthy, the well-off and well-connected, which is the policy agenda for the extreme maga republicans on the other sidema of the aisle. >> you've invoked the president a number of times. do you have a message for the white house as they contemplate whether to take the debt ceiling off the table entirely as a legislative cudgel? >> well, it's the right thing to do for the american people, and

i think once we emerge from this manufactured gop cries, one of the things that all of us should do legislatively here in the united states congress, administratively, legally is to explore all options so that we can remove this weaponized vehicle to hold the american people and the economy hostage in incredibly irresponsible ways. if not for the leadership of president biden, democrats in the house and the senate holding together, we might even be in a very different situation at this moment. and we can't afford to allow extremists to be ablee to continue to utilize the debt ceiling tode hold the american people hostage moving forward, and we should look at all opportunitiesd to stop that fr ever happening again. >> yeah, i've got to ask you as you talk about the extremists, we played a bit of sound from marjorie taylor greene who earlier said in exchange for her support for this bill she effectively wants someone to be

impeached. do you think kevin mccarthy is going to havepe to pay the tab this, which is to say kowtow to the most conservative members of his conference in the days to come? are you at all concerned about what concessions he might have to make to them in order to hold ton to the speaker's gavel, for example? >> well, theer american people should continue to be concerned with the extremists that have been on full display and in many ways unleashed. marjorie taylor greene is front and center as a leader of the house republican conference, so is george santos if the default on america act passed with the support of george santos. and you've got individuals totally out of control like santos, unfit to serve in the united states congress, but who have become an important part of the b fabric of what the modern day house republicans represent. that's unfortunate. as democrats we're going to continue to try to find common groundin whenever and wherever possible to put people over le politics, do the right thing for the american people.

but we will always push back against the extremism whenever and wherever necessary. >> what do you think the message to the american people should be about the house republican conference rightbl now?en as they're trying to make sense of this i think democrats have done as very decent job of showing the country how they are doing the work, the hard work of governing and keeping the country's economy in safe hands. what should the message be? how should they think about whab speaker mccarthy has done here and the role he plays in guiding his party forward? >> what we'll continue to see is on the one hand house democrats, senateho democrats, president biden, team extreme, team normal, team america, team get things done for normal every day americans. team normal versus team extreme on the other side of the aisle. >> it's easy to remember because

it rhymes. it also seems to be true. democratic leader hakem jeffries, a very, very busy man tonight, i'm deeply appreciative of yourpl time.ou thanks have good luck out there. >> thank you very much. >> now, if the house passes the debt creel deal, the bill goes to the senate where any single senator has thean power to brin it to hahalt. while the consensus seems to be in favors passing the bill in e house, senators from both parties are unhappy with certain aspects of this bill and have already said they'll introduce amendments to it, and that means essentially these senators want to have floor votes, and in those floor votes they can voice their concerns, which in the end could eat up precious debate time and in the very worst-case scenario it could end up sending the whole bill back to the house. that would almost certainly push the passage of this bill far beyond june 5th, which is of course theh, drop dead date for the u.s. to avoid default.

right now senate leaders chuck schumer and mitch mcconnell are reportedly holding private meetings and working the phones and also publicly asking senators not to risk everything that has been negotiated over amendments. >> i can tell you what i hope happens is that those who have amendments when given votes we yield back time so that we can finish this thursday or friday. >> we can't send anything back to the house. that would risk default plain and simple. >> joining us now is senator tim kaine, democrat of virginia. thank you so much for janing me tonight. i know you have not been happy about certain elements of this bill. are you going toen support it i the end when it comes to the senate? >> alex, i have t an amendment filed to block a provision in the bill a completely unrelatedo the debt ceiling that would green light a very controversial

pipeline inve virginia that no e talked to us about, no one conferred with virginians about, and they justni dropped it into the j bill. look, we do amendments all the time in the senate. i've had bills redone with multiple amendments a day. i'm assisting an amendment to strip out the mountain valley pipeline. this is pipeline that should have to go through normal permitting processes, but sadly the deal that was struck gives this a green light, exempts it from all the normal permitting processes, and to build the pipeline you've got to take peoples land. this runs through appalachian, virginia. some of my poorest, hardest hit residents they don't want to have their lands taken, and th definitely don't want congress putting our thumb on the scale to take away the power of agencies and courts to review whether it's a good idea or not. so i've got an o amendment to s let's strip out this provision.

i want to vote on it, and it's not going ton delay us. we can do an amendment vote immediately, and i guarantee if this amendment were to pass and it were to go back to the house, nobody in the house is voting for or against this bill because of the green light of the mountain valley pipeline. it's not fatal to the bill, it's not going to delay, and they put it in the deal and the deal's with virginia, and they didn't even ask me about it, so i'm fighting for virginians who are going to lose their land. and i want to vote in my amend. >> are you at all concerned, though, the timing of that might push us past june 5th? that does seem to be the drop dead date for the u.s. avoiding catastrophic economic consequences. >> alex, absolutely not. i think the house is going to pass this bill and give it to us tonight. i have been involved in bills where i've beened the sponsor, where we've done seven or eight

amendment votes in a day. there's going to be some republican amendment votes in the senate, i believe. if we will allow republicans to offer amendments, i want an amendment on my -- on my voigzs to strip the mountain valley pipeline, and i'll live with the result. you know, if i can convince my c colleagues, great. if i can't convince my colleagues, that's on me. but i don't think anybody should cut a deal that affects virginians particularly in the hardest hit part of our state on a really important and controversial project without reaching out tove us. and i also think stripping -- giving a green light to one project in the united states and saying it doesn't have to go through normal permitting rules, that just opens the door to really big problems in the future. any big corporation that is unhappy with the pace of their approvals in a regulatory environment, that's unhappy with what courts are doing, can just go toin congress and say, hey, t

us bypass you. everyday people don't get that deal. everyday people don't get to bypass the courts and, you know, have congress take a magic wand and give them what they want. we shouldn't do t it for a wealy company, either. >> for those following along at home here there are 217 votes, 218 and so this i believe has now passed the house. that's a big deal for people who have been watching this short but tortured history of these debt ceiling negotiations. senator kaine, i've got to ask you and i want to talk more in detail about the mountain valley pipeline and whynt the white hoe did not bring you into those negotiations, but if your amendment fails are you prepared to vote yes on this, which are now assuredly coming to the senate iny the next day or two? >> my only goal right now, alex, is i want to get a vote on my amendment. >> okay. >> they cut a deal affecting virginia without even talking to

us, and it hits the hardest hit, toughest,ha poorest, most challenged part of myor state. it affects people and it takes their land. i mean toei build a pipeline you've got to take peoples land. in this part of virginia, appalachia, they've had it for generation and don't want to give it up to a corporation that wants to make billions more by taking their land. if there were a decision by regulatory agencies we needed, that's one thing. but this thing has been star crossed from the start because the companies made a lot of mistakes because l the previous administration, the trump administration was handing out environmental permits like they were visitors passes to the senate gallery rather than making the companies really do the work that they should do. and i'mth not going to abandon e virginians who have fought to

protect their land and just saya fine, the administration cuts a deal without me, i guess i've got to whistle and go along. anybody who thinks that i will that, they have not been paying attentiony to the fact have been a public servant at the local,n state, and federal level for 28 years. going along with whatever somebody tellsg me to do is no what i do. >> yeah, i've got to ask -- so the reporting we have out off "the washington post" is that the reason the mountain valley pipeline and the expedited processing of it is in this debt ceiling negotiation, in this bill is because the white house effectively agreed to put the mountain valley pipeline in a separate bill after they secured joe manchin's vote for inflation reduction act. that was a huge part of this administration's legacy. that was a signal piece of the president's -- that is the president's legislative record in many ways other than the infrastructure act.

-- do you see any sense in the deal making that had to happen behind closed doors with joe manchin in order to secure his vote on a huge piece of legislation with profound effects on the american economy, a lot of things that democrats support? do you understand the negotiation that had to happen here? or i guess what is your reaction to the reporting? >> alex, i think that reporting is true. i understand it, but to put it in theut debt ceiling, to put i in the bill where we're on the precipice of america defaulting on its credit for the first time in history, that's not what the white house agreed to. they agreed to, joe, if you vote on the ira, we'll try to make this happen, we'll put it in many bills. but they never should have put it in a debt ceiling bill. they never should have put it in a bill where america's at the precipice of default. they could have put it in a permitting reform bill.

they could have put it in a, you know, energy appropriations bil at the end of the year, but putting it in a debt ceiling, this is manufactured issue. there is bipartisan interest right now in permitting reform. i'm a supporter of permitting reform. i support the permitting reform portions of of this bill other than the mountain valley pipeline. we could have gotten this done in regular order, but for some reason theyer decided to drop mountain valley pipeline in the midst of a completely unrelated bill. we've got to save america's full, faith, and credit and we'll drop mountain valley pipeline in that? who are these owners of this company that think they're that important? i mean that they're so important that they get to write the termi of their own deal eliminating all administrative and judicial review and they get to be on the par of the debt ceiling deal? i mean give me a break. give me a break.

>> senator, we hope to hear much more from you on this. the ball is now in your court because this bill has passed the house. it's making its way over to the senate. senator tim kaine -- >> i'm glad it's in my court. >> it is most certainly in your court in more ways than one. t thank you for joining me tonight. every voter is critical as we know in the senate and you seem tose have some deep reservation about what is in this. we appreciate your time. >> thanks, alex. as i mentioned just moments ago the house has now secured at least 300 votes, which is more than enough to pass the debt ceiling bill through the lower chamber. we're going to have more analysis on this breaking news this evening.ak we just need to go away for a very quick break, so please stay with us. break, so please stay with us.

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the bill to avoid a catastrophic default on our nation's debt has now passed in the house of representatives. the final vote was 314-117. that bill appears poised to head to the senate where senators face a very tight deadline to push the bill through and avoid sending the nation into an economic crisis. i want to bring into the conversation jen psaki, former white house press secretary and the host, of course, with inside with jen psaki on msnbc. also with us is peter baker, chief white house correspondent for "the new york times." jen, i must ask you first how you look at democratic unity in this moment, and what -- what about does that surprise you?

does that not surprise you? we just heard from senator tim kaine. he was obviously incensed about the inclusion of the mountain valley pipeline in the debt ceiling deal. but other than him democrats have basically fallen in line, i think 165 in the house voted for passage of this bill. >> that's right, alex. well, first of all, i think it tells you and shows you that democrats do not want to default. many of them are holding their nose. many of them have been vocal about this, about components of this debt limit package they don't like, whether it is work requirements for people of a certain age or less funding to go after people who don't pay their taxes, they don't like all those pieces, and there are some who voted against it and said they were going to vote against it because they don't think there should be a negotiation over the debt limit, and there shouldn't be. but ultimately they're being the adults in the room here by preventing the cubtry from defaulting because the impact on

people across the country would be dramatic, catastrophic, every possible word. not surprised at all by senator kaine. i'm a virginiian myself by senator kaine's up opposition to the pipeline. he's been opposed to this for quite some time. this was not a secret this was something senator manchin got in a deal, but senator kaine is doing what any politician should do and speaking out. at the same time he's not going to vote against this i bet and allow the country to default. he's just being vocal as elected officials can be. >> peter, you wrote a great analysis of the way in which president biden negotiated this, which was largely behind closed doors. and i think raised some potential concern among democrats about what he would potentially give away to republicans. now that the dust has settled and we see what was given and what was not given and the scope of what republicans actually

got, how do you think this sort of affects biden's legacy as a deal maker and his standing within the democratic caucus and the house, and well i should say the senate as well in. >> look, president biden had a different imperative here than some house democrats. he wants to burnish his reputation as a bipartisan lead. he got the infrastructure bill and this is central to his identity. i think he wants to be seen as someone who can reach across the aisle even in a polarized time. for the house democrats, though, they're more concerned about the things he gave away, and he did give away some things. he felt he had no choice. so they registered their

complaints. that doesn't mean this is a win for president biden. this is a result he would have wanted, a result where both parties ultimately hold hands, take something they don't necessarily like, agree to move on, get the debt ceiling behind them, protect the economy and the accomplishments of his first two years. they didn't get news things democrats in this, an increase in the tax on the wealthy or minimum wage or anything like that, but what they did is protect most of the gains they felt they've gotten in the last two years when they were in charge. >> i want to add a caveat to that, jen, as we try to understand who got more and who got less. the democrats didn't actually get anything. they protected things, which seems like they didn't get much, but given the fact republicans were willing to shoot the hostage, saving the nation's economy seems like a pretty big get though it is not a democratic -- a specifically partisan priority. and i wonder given the asymmetry there, right, what republicans

got wasn't much, but it was something more than the status quo. you know, how should the white house think about future negotiations, and do you think they'll take it off the table the debt ceiling entirely if you're joe biden and this white house? >> yeah. i mean i agree with what peter said, of course, that joe biden is someone who likes to pursue bipartisan deals. i wouldn't say this is a deal he's framing behind the resolute desk. this was just about avoiding default. this was about preventing the economy from going into a catastrophic downward spiral. well, this wasn't really about getting much aside from preventing that. republicans control the house, that's a reality. elections have consequences. i would say the pieces of the bill, the final deal here even if you look, alex, at the work requirements, which many democrats don't like, and president biden does not like -- i don't think most democrats like, it sun sets at the end of 2024, and even the cbo scored

it, and you can argue whether this is accurate or not as more people being added to snap bets. now, there are older americans who will no longer be eligible, but homeless and veterans will be. is that a win? i don't know. it's not even good pallalcy, but is not what the house bill was originally. the biggest loss, alex, was probably the irs funding because it is very hard to get funding for the irs. that's not politically popular for anyone, and that is funding that was going to be in there to help go after people who avoided taxes, make digital filing easier. it's going to be hard to get that back. but i think at this point, the president, the white house, they're just relieved the senate is going to pass this because they're a more responsible body on both sides with some exceptions than the house is in this regard. and i think they're relieved and they're ready to move forward. >> peter, do you have any sense -- the biden administration has been playing their hand very close to their vest as far as the 14th amendment or other sort of

existential methods by which you would get rid of the debt ceiling. do you have a sense that there is in the wake of this, if it does pass the senate as it is expected to, that there is an appetite for taking this off the table entirely, that they will pursue that behind closed doors or through the courts or by whatever means are necessary? >> it's a good question. look, president biden is an institutionalist right, so i think intinctively he's wary on challenging long-standing convention. the president doesn't have the constitutional authority to simply ignore it. he told us in the roosevelt room the other day even as he announced this deal with kevin mccarthy sometime this year or next year he doesn't want to pursue a conversation about this so we can avoid this kind of, you know, hostage taking or running up the cliff kind of scenario again in the future. he anticipates a court challenge if he were to do it, which is

why one reason at least he said he didn't do it this time, he didn't want to take a chance at a court challenge and leave the country in default while this is being litigated. it's a question whether he's willing to take on that issue. i don't know -- i'm a little skeptical and again i think it's not in his nature to push that boundary if he doesn't want to. >> i would just say for the institutionalists, our president, preserving the full faith and credit of the united states is norm worth preserving. that, too, is an institution. jen psaki and peter baker, thank you for joining me tonight. really appreciate your time. >> thank you, alex. mitch mcconnell has now weighed in on the house passage of the debt ceiling saying now it is the senate's turn to pass this agreement without delay. so that is a good indicator of what may happen in the upper chamber. still to come tonight the price

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as president biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy have been shepherding republican lawmakers away from the mutual issue of defaulting on our debt, some

republicans have been working against them to get a leg up in the 2024 presidential campaign trail. this week it was governor rop desantis casting this stone in iowa. >> we were careening towards bankruptcy before that debt deal, and this country is still careening towards bankruptcy after that debt deal. >> yesterday entrepreneur vivek also weighed in. >> i would hold the line, vote against it. >> earlier this month we heard a little bit from donald trump. >> i say to the republicans out there, congressman, senators, if they don't give you massive cuts, you're going to have to do a default. and moments ago just after the bill passed we got a little more from the former whez to said on a radio show this evening, well, it is what it is, it's passed and i guess i knew it was going to pass but we'll get it properly fixed in two years.

former vice president mike pence gave a thumbs down to the bill yesterday saying in a statement the american people deserve better. and trump's former u.n. ambassador nikki haley has been using the issue to swipe at her top opponents noting that in 2018 congressman desantis voted for a bill that increased the debt ceiling, and that president trump also an opponent in 2024 signed it into law. earlier today senator tim scott was asked if he'd support this current debt bill, and this was his answer. >> short answer's no. >> we'll soon see whether that no vote plays differently in the senate than it does on the campaign trail. now that has the house has passed the debt deal, the ball is quite literally in senator scott's court. while mr. scott cannot just it cannot be just a 2024 campaign line. still more to come on this very busy night of news with bombshell reporting that key evidence in the mar-a-lago investigation is all on tape. yes, really. we'll have more on that just

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of all of the tell-alls to come out of the trump administration, it turns out this one might actually be the most important. it's called the chief's chief. as a book it was sort of a flop. it sold less than 22,000 copies, but as a piece of evidence, well, the research that went

into this book might be key to one of the special counsel's investigations. cnn reports tonight that in the summer of 2021 two people working on the chief's chief, ghost writers met with president trump at his golf club and one of them began recording. this is full year before he gave the classified documents he took with mim. cnn reports that special counsel jack smith now has this tape. now, nbc news has not yet independently verified this reporting, and cnn has not just actually heard the tape. they've only had it described to them by multiple sources. but on the recording trump reportedly acknowledges he held onto a classified document about a potential attack on iran, and then there's this sort.

sort of unbelievably sources told cnn the recording captures the sound of paper rustling as if trump were waving the document around. on the tape. the guardians expanded on this reporting tonight saying his sources tell him this document was classified at the secret level, which is the kind of document the doj would be inclined to bring charges for. and also reports the trump aide who made this recording typically taped meetings between trump and journalists because trump didn't trust journalists. reports that aide had her laptop and devices this year, and so jack smith likely has even more tapes. and if all of that were not bad enough this tape reportedly blows up one of trump's primary defenses that has been been trying to lay out for himself here. quote, on the recording trump's comments suggest he'd like to share the information but he's aware of limitations on his ability post-presidency to declassify records. acknowledgement of that in his

own words and on tape more than a year before trump started claiming he could declassify documents just by thinking about them, feels huge. something tells me more people will end up listening to this tape than reading mark meadows' actual book. joining us now is mary mccord, current executive director of georgetown law's institute for constitutional advocacy and protection. mary, thank you for being with us tonight. what in your mind does this tape and the existence of it do to trump's defense? >> well, i think it makes clear if he's on, you know, a recording, and we know the power in front of juries of actually listening to defendants in his own words on a tape recording. it sounds like he pretty much acknowledged having classified information, which at other times he and his lawyers

suggested he had no knowledge that classified information was taken from the white house. it also shows he knows he can't share classified information. it shows according to the reporting that i have this information about general milly's plans to attack iran, and i sure wish i could show it to you, but i can't do that because it's classified. now, i'll note i think that's a decent possibility that the former president was simply making up that he had classified information written by general milly because the reporting also indicates he was pretty mad at general milly. he had this interview at bedminster with these writers who were working on mark meadows' book, very shortly after news reporting had come out that general milly in fact had tried to convince trump not to do some sort of attack on iran, and he was pretty aggravated about that reporting

according to whatever, on "today," and cnn and other news outlets. and this could very much be another case of the former president being petty and wanting to suggest to these writers i've got something that would disprove a general milly but i can't share it because it's classified. now, general milly knows and probably jack smith knows whether a real document exists. if a real document exists, that certainly puts him in additional legal jeopardy in terms of his criminal culpability for mishandling classified documents. but even if the document doesn't exist, even if he was making it up, it still shows his intent and his knowledge that he had classified information and he wasn't supposed to and that he knows that you can't share classified information with other people. >> yeah. and certainly we have no idea whether it's a blank document or an actual piece of paper trump is using as a prop. but let's suspend our concerns for a moment and just walk with me through the time line and how

it changes if indeed the former president has classified documents in bedminster in 2021. that would radically shift our understanding of how and where the documents were moved and the degree to which this obstruction case could be built, would it not? >> absolutely because even -- there are so many varying stories about how classified documents came to be in trump's possession, but one of the most predominant stories is that they were loaded into boxes when he moved out of the white house, and they were taken to mar-a-lago and they were stored in that storage unit in mar-a-lago. and if there are other documents at bedminster, how did they get there? that's inconsistent with the story about where things were moved when they packed up the white house. that means either they had gotten there some previous time to packing up the white house, or they came after the white house was packed up. if they were moved to bedminster after the white house was packed up, the question is why and what's the timing of that. and we know there's been some

reporting recently about boxes being loaded at mar-a-lago into a truck to be taken to bed menster. we don't know what was in those boxes. we also know there's been some reporting recently that one of the former president's previous attorneys, mr. parlator, resigned in part because of various infighting including boris epstein trying to stand in the way of searching bedminster. so, you know, we don't know anything for sure, but the timing certainly would lead a prosecutor -- and i was a prosecutor for a very long time -- to be suspicious about how classified documents might have gotten to bedminster. and if they were moved thereafter the national archives began requesting that all presidential records be returned to the national archives. >> it also gives us a window into trump's potential motivation for doing all of this, which may not necessarily be legally that meaningful. but in terms of the narrative

for the optics of all this, for building a case that the public has to get onboard with, that would seem to be useful, right? >> yeah. i mean, motive again like you said is not legally required, but as a prosecutor when you go to trial in front of a jury, you want to be able to explain the why. why is it that the defendant did what you're claiming through the evidence that you're listing that he did. so with the former president motive could be multiple things, right? he just loved to -- kind of like for the bragging power of it to be able to say he's got classified documents, think about the kim jong-un letters that he famously, you know, took with him. but he also, you know, is petty and may very well may have just wanted to use this document to try to get back at general milly. or it could have a more -- a more nefarious motive, and it could be all those things. so understanding the why of it is an important part of the

story if in fact there's going to be an indictment and ultimately a trial. >> lots trickling out about this case including maybe even a potential indictment. we will see. mary mccord, former assistant attorney general for national security at the doj, mary, it's always good to see you. thanks so much for your time. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. o much fe >> thank you >> we'll be right back

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that is our show for tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. we deserve is deal that generally reflects the urgency of our economic challenges and delivers meaningful results. to grant such a colossal debt ceiling increase while settling for a mere $12 billion in immediate savings is also an act of fiscal irresponsibility and betrayal pla