for fear of being mocked or jeopardizing their career growth. obviously, we don't understand that, what about airline passengers looking out the window. they're not as trained. their eyes aren't as trained and see see something and asked to get involved as well. >> this is where we focus on pilots because they're more trained, they're professional, they're up in the sky every day all day. they know what should be there and what shouldn't be there. and other pilots, astronauts, former head of noaa, and on the board side, i think it's time that everyone is taking it interesting. >> alex, thank you very much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. there is very good reason why people like our good friend andrew weissmann are saying that

the tape from donald trump discussing a very sensitive military document could be a game-over moment for the ex-president in the classified documents investigation. it's a recording that not only significantly increases trump's legal exposure. but it also blows a gaping hole through many of the defenses that team trump has been peddling in public in the case. the ex-president's lawyer jim trusty went on cnn last night, playing defense in the wake of the bombshell news first reported by cnn of the tape's existence. and repeated a line that will be familiar to anyone who's been following this case. will trump display documents at will or as trump puts it even by just thinking about it. >> what i will tell you is there is no doubt as commander in chief when the president left washington, d.c. for mar-a-lago, he was actually still president, when he left with boxes that he brought he was the command in

chief. there's no doubt he had the authority as commander in chief to be classified. it does not have to go through a bureaucratic process to be declassified. >> never mind, the taped conversation takes place in the summer not during the 11 minutes he was still technically commander in chief but lawyer trusty would go on to say that he could prove that trump would classify the material in 11 minutes, but he didn't reveal the evidence that he does so. that defense is there, "the washington post" reports this way, the audio features trump describing a multipitch document that he claims about possibly attacking iran, expressing the desire to share the information with others but also making some acknowledgement that he would not do so, which begs the question why would he not share a document if he declassified it in his mind or anywhere else. trump attorney jim trusty had no

answer -- >> jim, if this was declassified, then why are we told that he's on this tape, basically, telling the people in the room that he can't share it with them? >> you are told by the doj or fbi or whoever filtered that to you, anything they can think of to justify -- >> no, but -- the prosecution. >> there's new reporting today that reveals how the tape actually figures into the jack smith investigation and presentation of evidence. nbc news can report this, recording was played to the investigation to the garage that's in charge of trump's handling of documents, "washington post" prints two people familiar with the recorded conversation said prosecutors have asked witnesses about trudge's a awareness of the document discussing at bedminster was sensitive that he could not share or declassify after leaving office. a potential smoking gun in the form of a tape of donald trump

kims in the declassified investigation is where we begin. "the new york times" reporter katy bender is here. also joining us, former dispute assistant u.s. attorney harry litman is back at the table. and msnbc rick stengel. katy, this story broke while we were on the air yesterday. as soon as we saw it from our friends over at cnn. we talked about it for a good part of the broadcast. but there's incredible reporting including in "the new york times" filling out how we understand this tape to be deployed by jack smith, listen. >> yeah. so what he wants to do, he wants to explain to jurors that donald trump's defense -- he had a few defenses, but the top defense again is he just declassified everything the minute he was leaving office so everything would have been declassified. so the idea he's hesitating to share something because it could be too sensitive, does sort of

lead you to believe that he knew something about this document which was marked secret. and he could -- impossible for him to share it. so it kind of gets to a state of mind which is something we rarely get with donald trump usually we have him talking about what he may or may not think or want. this is donald trump hesitating to share something because of its sensitiveness. that would be really important for the jury. also it breaks through another defense which is that donald trump packed.boxes and had no idea what it was. then he didn't do this. okay, if this was an don't and somebody else packed the boxes at some point, summer of 2021, he found at least one document that he realized was very sensitive. instead of returning it to the national archives, he kept it. >> katie, it reminds people what was happening in the period. he was doing a lot of interviews with journals writing a lot of

books. this was in the mark meadows -- this is the "washington post" reporting. in the section of his book the chief's chief, trump's former chief of staff mark meadows begins to describe the meeting where the recording was made. dressed in a crisp sports coat, he looks at least 20 pounds lighter than when in office, meadows' book says, a former page report typed up by mark milley that contains the general's own plan to attack iran. deploying massive number of troops something that he urged troop to do more than once during his presidency. trump denied those requests every time. just give us contemporaneous context what was going on between trump and milley. >> yes, trump was upset with

milley, he talked about things that he wasn't allowed to do. in this case, we see mark meadow basically spinning this idea that milley himself had come up with a plan to attack iran and donald trump somehow held him back and didn't want him to it, we have reported, other outlets have reported in fact it was not unusual for milley and others in his position to write reports of variety of scenarios that show potentially u.s. responses to countries like iran. so, this may be being spun by somebody like meadows and other former trump officials to make it seem like trump had been this extremely reasonable person. but in fact, it's the sort of document that the pentagon would prepare so that the commander in chief would understand all of the available options. >> we've seen a lot of golf shots, rick stengel, with trump. at least in those images, he looks 20 pounds lighter, that

doesn't have much credibility. i'm sympathetic about it. in terms of katie's reporting it's fewer unadulterated spin. >> yeah, having listened to that, the passage quoted obviously, mark meadows wasn't there. that was the ghostwriters for the people supposedly doing interviews for the book. he's in the book, he's obviously ingratiating himself with trump. to go to the broader point, you know, this is more than a smoking gun. these are the bullets, right? this is a violation of the espionage act which says you're not allowed to keep these papers that regard, that talk to national defense. and remember, the espionage act is from 1919, it's before the classification era of truman. even this idea of he can or

didn't classify them are irrelevant to the prosecution charges. >> it brings us to the potential criminal exposure that, harry, you do a very good job of putting our conversations in the correct chronological order. we talk about things when they become public. when journalists like katie, or in yesterday's instance, cnn, break the stories. but this clearly is something that jack smith has known about since the grand jury was convened and already presented to it? >> that's right. it couldn't be later than the 5th of may which is the last time they met. it was probably through the testimony of margaux mark and trump's person who was the loyal aide taping everything. but katie really nails, i'd say, nicolle, because what this is, if it's -- i think smoking gun is not overstated, in every case, no matter how big, there's sort of a small bind of 20 hot

docs or so. and this really is a strong candidate for exactly the reason katie said. everything's been nailed up, for, i think, a long time. and the only remaining question even that is not much of a question is about state of mind. and, yes, for trump, whatever that paper is, it looks like meadows is misdescribing it. someone has said, maybe he's just faking it, it doesn't matter. the words coming out of his mouth meant, one, he's kept classified documents, and two, there are rules what he can do with them so it completely puts a lie to the malarkey he's said again and again that he automatically declassifies them and can do whatever he wants with them. >> someone pointed out the danger in this is three-fold. one, it proves that he knew there was a declassification process. i think some early reporting about explained to him got at this. this is a tape of his own words. >> right. >> we've seen how reacting the

jury to e. jean carroll case for him in his own words copping to something. the second, he acknowledges declassified thinking it or otherwise, he's waving around a piece of paper, or at least pretending to, we don't know that he says declassify. this person says it's an attempt to disseminate. i want to show it to you, but i can't. later on in the day, we didn't know. talk about how those three things bolster trump's exposure? >> boom, boom and boom, you could have taken your 45 seconds and put them in a government rebuttal argument. first, it blows out of the water the punitive state of mind defenses. which by the way, i've been saying time and time again, it's time to think about this as it comes to a jury. if you take it manic as i do, that he won't testify, that how he's going to present his ideas

is unclear. this is strong evidence, that of course, he knew he couldn't do or do things with them. then as the espionage act or conspiracy that doesn't require consternation, having him brand stuff like this and obviously be eager to show it in conjunction with other testimony which katie's team has reported that he would be under the habit of showing it to people. that grounds a whole separate offense, under 793, espionage act, if smith wants to bring it. >> so, harry, you are an obstruction hawk, and you do not spend as much time on this program talking about what's publicly facing and potentially incriminaing on the other side of this, sort of prong one. you've now used the word espionage act twice. is this the piece of evidence that makes you calibrate or

rethink your thinking? >> first three tracks, because there's also the tracks of unlawful taking which among other things is more likely to be in d.c. or edva where he wants venue. sort answer, yes, although i'm still not totally on the other side. i think the evidence is there it's going to be a matter of prosecutorial judgment for him. and really garland will defer to whether or not he wants to potentially complicate the case and make the state of mind so central when he's got the goods on him, on the other things. so it could be on its own something that enhances obstruction. or yes, it could be freestanding espionage act. others have said it's dead bang it will. my hesitation is, i can imagine a seasoned prosecutor like smith wanting to simplify, not complicate at this late juncture. >> and i guess as a public relations matter which is the only public-facing function we

see trump's lawyers engaged in. i imagine they do a lot of things behind the scenes that we don't see, other than reading or sometimes looney filings. they didn't simplify matters for trump at all. let me show you jim trusty's answer to where the document is today. >> when it comes to this document, specifically, at the heart of this reporting, how did this document wind up in bedminster? >> yeah, i know i'm good and boring for your ratings but i am not going to try the case that's being set up by leaks that i don't believe are accurate. >> has the record been returned to the national archives? >> same answer. >> so you're not prepared to say 20e7b9 whether the documents have been returned to the national archives or declassified. >> even trump would know, and he's got a reptilian survival sense if he thought he might have done something wrong, he would have is given it back, i didn't do it. this is 2021.

and the search comes a whole year later in august 2022 in mar-a-lago. it's still a very open question, what if anything was retrieved from or examined from bedminster. but do you think jack smith knows where the document is? >> i've got to think so, only because it's such a serious document, nicolle, the national security folks want that out of trump's mitts. if they don't have it they would have tried to search bedminster or force it out. it's a separate problem if it remains out there for trump to try to use or exploit however he's doing it. for that i surmise that he does. remember, we are getting, as to trump's points, he says, you know, absolutely nothing. sigh don't know why they even went on cnn about the actual evidence. but that one point, where is the darn document? is a question that doj cannot

leave unanswered. and presumably, it's been answered for some time, otherwise, we'd know it. >> and that -- i'm sorry. >> go ahead. >> that's not just any secret document if it is reportedly what it says it is that mark milley prepared a document for trump himself that he allegedly typed himself about an invasion plan of iran. i mean, that is beyond the level of even top secret. in fact, milley, obviously, kept it out of the normal process of the defense department because he didn't want people to see it. that's an uncomfortable truth as well so that document is, obviously, deeply classified. and is out of the normal process. >> we have some reporting that its classification is secret. so it's sort of -- >> that's an odd thing. it would be more than secret. >> well, i think what we understand, katie, jump in if you understand anything, we understand it's a clarification to be secret. i'm 24 hours processing the news

reporting that i believe "the new york times" broke about general milley in to meet with jack smith prosecutors. i mean, this may be a greater focus than we understand, as we have this conversation today, katie. >> and it might have been secret because it wasn't a full detailed plan but just a summary which would also have been presented to the president. it might have been more sensitive. i think the conversation they were having about the document that mark meadows wrote about in the book and others are sharing an reporting, and reporting about milley, it brings up an interesting conundrum for the justice department. because they want to make the argument that what trump had or obtained was so sensitive that it could harm national security. sheer we are all talking about it on msnbc. i think a jury would intelligently ask, well if it was going to harm national security so much and the information was already out in

the wild for years before it got to us in this trial, was national security harmed? this is a question that the department has confronted before when asking at classified information with secretary clinton. it was information that had been published in major publications. and no harm had come to the united states for it being made public and being aired publicly. for a variety of reasons that case is so, so different. for a variety of reasons, including the prosecutor said we're not going to go down this road because of how we proved the harm occurred because of where of it being where it was. >> let me read what was reported around this, harry litman. this is from the guardian. trump regretted the document, the document issued understood is secret. significant as the justice department typically prefers to charge espionage cases involving retention of materials at that

level. rather than top secret papers that maybe too sensitive or confidential papers that are too low. i mean, confidential could sweep up correspondence and schedules. so you could see based on "the garden" that is too low. and top secret sort of in this category that frank figliuzzi has warned about in the past that you have to basically create clearances for everybody in the trial and it's too high. if it feels like princess and the pea, secret is just right. >> well, look, we don't know exactly what the document is. we hear the papers being waved. first, the guardian comment believes he doesn't believe everything he took was automatically classified. katie has given a good explanation, if we are talking about plans that are all in accurate or even not, for invading iran, think what that means for our allies who have to

think if trump comes to office, what's he going to do with this information. think what it has to mean for our adversaries, even if it's a year old, it is not -- i understand the secret, you know, just right categorization. it's a dangerous document and you don't need to have a career in the military intelligence to know that. plans for how we might attack iran, dangerous, not to be disseminated. >> katie benner, as a student of all of the journalism around trump and people who have interviewed him multiple times. he has patterns, he didn't show his kim jong-un letters to one person. he showed them to a dozen people. he had a feud he was having with mark milley, it's quite possible based on his pattern that he showed it to more than one person. do you have any sense of whether

that's the case? and do you have any sense of whether there's any connection to the subpoena that "the new york times" reported on for any connection correspondent conversation, papers and documents for the liv golf tournament which also i think emanated and planned and coordinated out of bedminster? >> you know, i don't know if there's a tie between the liv golf tournament and this document but what's clear, you're right, he does show things to multiple people because these are props usually about agreements. so if he's upset about something, and he wants to work with different audiences, he often wants to have on hand things that shows why he was so wrong. so that wouldn't be unusual. he's showing them to his lawyers, friends, associates, aides. we don't have information that he's doing more nefarious things like selling the information or showing the information to nation states that might want to do something with it.

and very personal when he does this, they're grievance-based and they're selfish. but at the end of the day, for a prosecution, or for a jury trial, if they can show there's harm, reckless, especially if they can show he knew he wasn't supposed to do it, but it's more important than anything else, you're trying to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody broke the law and that they knew they had done it. that's the most part thing for jack smith. of course, they have asked every witness that's come in before the grand jury, whether or not they saw this document or other documents, whether or not they saw anything more classified. >> every time you have a conversation whether trump did it or knew he was doing it as a crime, always akin to talking like a toddler or 3-year-old with a sharpie writing on a white wall? well, did he know it was permanent? did he know he wasn't supposed

to? there's always like a child-like analysis. he was the freaking commander in chief. of course, he knew he wasn't supposed to show a document about a strike on iran to anybody. >> and, remember, the context for this was he had read in "new yorker" the susan glasser piece that milley had given an interview the last few weeks of presidency, he wouldn't allow donald trump to tie his shoes on his own because he was afraid he would invade iran. he was brandishing the paper to say what is this. he's jeopardizing national security for his own grievance, for his own fragile ego. that's been the problem from the first daych his presidency. >> again, that is the problem still for all of us. >> yes. >> nobody goes anywhere, when we come back, far right-wing person

marjorie taylor greene says another round of unfettered access to the hours of footage previously given to tucker carlinson. it's a promise, though, for more dangerous propaganda that has prompted widespread criticism and security concerns. plus, we'll go down to florida where a deep red country's backlash against governor desantis culture war and what some say about his chances in 2024. how parents, students and teachers are all fighting back goodness a key pillar of his campaign identity. and later in the program, the ex-president returns to say familiar playbook as he gets ready to fight the criminal penalties against him. he's attacking the judge. "deadline: white house" returns with those stories and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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people are bracing today for a potential new wave of january 6 disinformation and misinformation that's after georgia republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene announced that republican speaker kevin mccarthy is reportedly giving right-wing media personalities exclusive access to footage of the attack on the u.s. capitol. yesterday, marjorie taylor greene tweeted this, as a promise, january 6 tapes are being released, speaker mccarthy has given john sullivan unfettered access to the tapes and reporting on it starts tomorrow.

if this sounds familiar to any of you, it's essentially part two of speaker mccarthy's decision to give 44,000 hours of exclusive footage exclusively to the disgraced and dismissed ex-fox news host tucker carlson. and the decision to give tucker carlson footage is criticized by republicans and democrats including mitch mcconnell. we should note that nbc news nor any credible news outlet has been given access to this amount of footage by the republican speaker. and in april, coalition media associations including "the new york times," the associated press, politico and propublica sued the department of access demanding access to the footage. for now, footage is solely in the hands of far-right media. who knows what they'll decide to

do with it, we're back with katie benner, harry litman and rick stengel. you know, i know from the congressional committee, a lot of what was picked the process of making sure more hallways and hideaways weren't revealed. that it wasn't selectively edited in the way that paranoid minds of marjorie taylor greene and they all thought. it doesn't ring the might evil warfare that took place between trump supporters and the capitol police officers. >> yeah, my argument from this from the beginning has been the same. it's the people's house. these are the people's tapes. the tapes are paid for with taxpayer money. they should be available to virtually everybody with certain protections for privacy and security. and the fact that, you know, they're putting them out there selectively to people who already agree with this crazy

idea that it wasn't a riot or insurrection is a violation, i think, of the constitution. and what the house represents. >> katie, in a lawsuit to give access to the tapes, what is your sense, what, if any, pressure is bearing on mccarthy to release the tapes -- for any of my viewers i wasn't familiar with all of these individuals, john solomon is one. julie kelly is the other. i'm not going to play this but this is what she said on steve bannon's war room podcast thing, she says this, january 6th, 2021 was probably the biggest instance of police brutality that this country has seen since the civil rights move the, about the police officers protecting the capitol. she said steve may be the suicides we keep hearing about, officers on duty january 6,

perhaps they didn't kill themselves over protests or because they were involved with how they saw how citizens treat police officers on american property. just sick stuff which is beyond the fringe on the right which is saying something. but do you have any sense of what the status is of gaining access among more established or credible outlets on the right or left? >> i mean, that's going to be up to the courts. and the activity in the courts is not going to impact kevin mccarthy's thinking at all. that's a completely separate matter. he's making a political calculation and putting it into the hands of people who want to tell the narrative that you just read aloud information that they can use to bolster that. now, in the short term, it helps donald trump and it helps the trump wing of the republican party try to basically recollect

the narrative. in the longer term, it continues to undermine trust and democracy in the country overall. and that is a really dangerous claim to play. it's not certain that if you take a large portion of the electorate and tell them they can't trust the government. or anything that the government says, that they won't turn on the messengers that kevin mccarthy has at some point in time to. so you're playing with fire. and the fbi and other agencies have talked about how there have been more attacks, more threats to politicians here in washington, d.c. and of course, state politicians, local politicians, across the country. because of this move to try to convince people that they can't trust election officials. and that elected officials don't have their best interests at heart. and even that law enforcement doesn't want to protect the country. and so, again, while this might do something short term for kevin mccarthy and the trump wing of the republican party, the danger it presents, even in

the midterm, even in the next few years, is really tremendous. >> harry, again, i'm grappling with sort of wanting to share this information or amplify the sounds. it's certainly not classified. it's the other end of the spectrum. it's garbage speech but this is what marjorie taylor greene said. i'm not going to play it. what republicans are very concerned about in the house we don't want these videotapes to be used or abused in any way on the left by team that look at the tapes all day long and use facial recognition software to dox people and find them in the middle of the night with christopher wray's fbi justified with the department of justice. this is the where's waldo and you had to find the conspiracy theories. i think there are 30 in there. what she's is describing is the process of law enforcement. and i think there's some incredible citizen -- sort of people watching that have found

evidence of crimes that have turned them into tip lines. and the only way that anyone from law enforcement will knock on anyone's door is if they carried out a crime. and then they would receive all of the due process rights. i mean, she's talking about some conspiracy that the left is going to watch the tapes and do what? i mean, i don't even understand what this world view means law enforcement is supposed to do in our country. >> it is a bleeping outrage. and there are many things that are wrong about it. and katie's point is right, yours, the damage it will do, but rick's point is the one that screams out to me, these tapes belong to the people. sand the idea that government could selectively dole it out among people who have the right thinking ideas, and will do with it the right thinking things to twist the narrative of an important national event like this is completely contrary to the no basic principles of the

first amendment. "the new york times" ought to win that suit. if they don't, it's for really procedural technicalities. but the idea of it shows complete ignorance as to whose tape this is, and whom they're there to serve. >> harry litman, got a bleeping out of you today, i love that. katie benner, thank you for starting us off. rick sticks around for the hour. up next, remarkable mobilization in florida by students, by parents, taking on governor desantis and taking on the wokeness of education. they've had enough in a deep red county there. we'll bring you that story, next. is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control.

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that's even worse. ( ♪♪ ) inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. today, a coalition of the sensible is turning shock into action. think of it like backlash to the backlash as greg sargent and paul waldman put it in today's "washington post," the growing response by extreme measures passed by school boards in a fuel select states things like book bans and rules on what teachers can and cannot say, exhibit "a," hernando county, ron desantis won that by 22 points in the governor's race. on tuesday night, early wednesday, backed parents,

students teachers there, nearly 50 teachers are reportedly going to resign came forward to oppose the restrictions, watch. >> i've never seen such fear from my colleagues as i've seen in the last few months. >> board is more interested in removing pride flags and literature than from protecting our educators. i'm leaving because i don't feel like i can adequately provide a safe environment for my students. i'm leaving because i refuse to work for an organization that sees students as indoctrination. >> no one is teaching your kids to be gay. sometimes, they're just gay. i love to teach, i have not taught your kids to be gay. >> i love this conversation. i don't have time to teach your kid to be gay. i have math to teach, wow. joining from us the aforementioned state of florida,

dave arenberg, he's the state attorney for palm beach. tell me what's going on here because this is not a place where i thought this sort of uprising and insurrection to ron desantis would start. but it was something. >> yes. nicolle, i spent some time in hernando county, it is deep red. and they're susceptible to cultural wars but those cultural wars is when you start messing with kids and their education. and book bans are not popular anywhere in the state and when teachers leave there are real world consequences. when you have a few parents there pushing this agenda to fight against woke even though they couldn't even tell you what woke means. and you have politicians that go along for political purposes but in the end, it's the kids and parents that pay the price. they see this. and florida's answer is universal vouchers to give a kid

to go to a private school. if florida slips in competitiveness in the next four years, you'll know why. >> it's remarkable to me that a guy, ron desantis, who wants to keep schools open the centerpiece of a national campaign is at war with teachers. i mean, the only reason schools were able to stay open, even if a politician wanted them to is because of the heroic selfless actsch teachers. >> desantis and his supporters equate teachers with teachers' unions, and teachers' unions are the enemy in the far right. in hernando county, teachers are popular. >> i would argue that everywhere teachers are popular. the abstract part of a union is faceless. >> and when the rubber meets the road is when the teachers start resigning.

who's going to replace them? that's when thinking get real desantis is not up for governor again in florida. he's still popular apparently but you're starting to see things changing. that's why a democrat got elected in jacksonville. >> yeah. >> replacing a republican who used to be the chair of the state republican party. >> what is the sense of why he's been such an uneven -- i'd be more harsh, and i will later in the show -- but the most generous description of his national launch is uneven. i think the more accurate one is complete flop. are people in florida surprised, not surprised? >> iowa is not a good state for ron desantis because that's retail politics. you got to look people in the eye and shake their hands. that's not what he's good at. he's better at wholesale politics, on the stage, tv commercials. when he went with elon musk. that was a problem in itself. he should have known that was a

disaster. elon musk laid off half the workforce and you're going to begin to have a flawless launch. the iowa caucus isn't a bad state for desantis, not to mention the other candidates getting in, you know, you wouldn't see chris christie or mike pence getting in the race to beat ron desantis. >> how does he say his name? >> his wife wanted him to pronounce it de-santis instead of desantis. >> do we have a tape of how they describe themselves? we're working on that. i mean, i'm confused because i tried to dig in on this, my colleagues on "morning joe," they seem confused. >> i'm ron desantis. >> my husband ron desantis. >> i am ron desantis. >> i'm ron desantis.com.

>> i'm ron desantis. >> so, i don't -- i don't work on campaigns anymore. and that is a good thing. but a guy that doesn't know his name is dead before he gets out of the gates. >> right. well, yeah. you can call me a-ron, if you want to. unfortunately, it does seem humerus in iowa when you keep changing your name. if someone don't think they can drink a beer with you, you're in trouble. wait in the person they find out the person they all want to have a beer with doesn't want to have a bear with them. >> i think it's worse, the person ordering the coffee at starbucks doesn't know what name to put on the cup. it d-e-e -- he doesn't know his freaking name. >> and the baristas care about

wokeness. what surprised me, a gallup poll, "usa today" poll woke is not pejorative. it's a term. it's a pure cultural diversion the president of the united states and the government has very little with how schools operate. governors do. but he's not running to be governor. he's running to be president. >> if you had to make an ad against ron desantis there are 50 teachers resigning in a plus-51 county. i would find five of them as well as people walking on disneyland. he hates both. >> that woman who said i have math to teach, i don't have time to teach your kid to be gay. i'd run that as the ad. >> the other piece of it, this is a more serious point, you don't make your kids gay. sometimes, kids are gay.

that's the inconvenient truth that ron desantis and other republicans in this era don't want to have. >> the don't say gay bill, people say, words don't say gay are not in the bill. but it allowed one parent, any single parent, to file a legal challenge against the school if they disagree with what's in the library. we just saw that with pulling red -- >> amanda gorman. >> amanda gorman. if we've got one parent, as nutty as they are, getting ready to veto over books. >> in duvall county, he had a book on row roberto clemente, i think this idea of book bans for people who are able to teach history and understand it scare people. i mean, is there anyone around ron desantis that can say you're freaking people out? >> he believes he has to move to

the far right to defeat zmp zmp. but he's doing things that are unpopular. book bans are unpopular. attack on mickey mouse. >> and the ban on abortion. >> the stuff he's doing for short-term political gain but it's bad for any general election. >> all right. we have to sneak in a quick break. i'd love to play the de-santis, desantis tape again. we'll keep going on this conversation. don't go anywhere, we have much more. more menthol per drop*, and the powerful rush of vicks vapors for fast-acting relief you can feel. vicks vapocool drops. fast relief you can feel. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time.

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governor, how come you're not taking questions from voters? >> what are you talking about? i'm out here with people. are you blind? >> what? >> are you blind? >> i'm not blind. >> so people are coming up, talking to me whatever they want to talk to me about. >> that's nice. in the days since he officially launched his campaign, he hasn't gotten better it. that was ron desantis. he seemed irritated, hostile to a question about questions. we're back with dave aronberg and rick stengel. this doesn't look like it's going to end well for desantis or de-santis. >> no, either one. american politics is littered with guys who ran for popular who are very popular in their own state and just didn't have a national audience. it's like players in the minor leagues that just don't make into it the major leagues. and he is -- doesn't have that

retail politics thing, that instantly engaging fame that your boss had, that president obama has. and that in a weird way is the most basic thing in american politics, right? the president is in your face and in your home every day. you want to be able to like him. you want to have a beer with him or whatever. and desantis doesn't have that very little thing. >> you could do desantis gaffe block every day. that's not as interesting as the fact that either he is not listening to strategists or the strategy is wrong. i would argue there is no room to the right of trump, at least not where my voters reside. he is as far right as you can get. he made the supreme court overturning roe v. wade has the opposition of 68 to 93% of all americans. there is no space to the right of trump. >> correct. and tomas petifree, a donor to desantis told him he will not donate to him anymore because of the fact he signed the six-week abortion ban. >> wow.

>> because he saw that made him unelectable in a general election. so we see it. we should know better because he hired jeff roe. i don't know if he is listening to him. it seems according to reports the only kitchen cabinet he has is him and his wife casey. >> i was laughing. can you imagine if i worked for bush and went out and said we're going to go by bush. it's so stupid. you can't make it up. in some ways, this is what trump wrought. in others, i don't know if it's a new low because we're already at the bottom, but it's a new ridiculousness. >> but it speaks to that thing that i was talking about before. we like candidates who are comfortable in their own skin. if you can't say your own name and you say it different ways, it just wreaks of the fact that you're not fortunate with who you are. in fact, you don't even know who you are if you can't pronounce your own name. >> i think the other thing -- i don't talk to a ton of republicans anymore. but i think most republicans are aware of the fact that you can find a lot of life-long republicans whose kids may be

impacted and damaged and in danger by the severe lgbtq, anti-lgbtq policies. and i wonder what people worry about on that front. >> we've seen it. there are reports of lgbtq families moving out of florida. it definitely doesn't seem like a welcoming environment when you go after disney because they just speak up against the don't say gay bill. and their speak up was timid. >> correct. >> that is a concern. look, the governor is one person. i think the rest of the state, the local governments are not like that. and you can see that hernando county. you don't see that that's who florida. it's what you saw in hernando county. it's not these crazy directives to try to win a republican primary on the fight right that few people believe in. >> the desantis presidential launch has obscured some of the conversations about the incredibly damaging moves to not teach history. there is a real i think frankenstein aspect to the

policies he's assembled to go national with. >> i saw somebody in one of those articles say -- it was very poignant, because by banning things and not talking about things, you're preparing kids for a world that doesn't exist anymore. >> totally. >> if you're not learning about these things, you're not learning about the world. that's sacrilege if you're a teacher. >> rick stengel, thank you. here at the table since you traveled up from florida. we'll keep you around for double duty. still ahead, donald trump's assaults on the justice including returning to one of his old hits attacking him. much more news straight ahead. don't go anywhere.

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this is where we are right now. i have a trump-hating judge with a trump-hating wife and family whose daughter worked for kamala harris and now receives money from the biden/harris campaign, and a lot of it. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. in the mind of that guy, the ex-president, there is only one explanation as to why a judge, any judge would rule against him that judge, or people around that judge must hate him. don't mind the little thing that governs every judge in this country, the rule of law. attacking judges is a strategy that a twice impeached, once indicted liable for sexual assault ex-president has deployed on many, many, many occasions. but he is now taking things to a new level, at a moment that is incredibly fraught in this country. asking the so-called trump-hating judge, justice juan

marshawn to recuse himself from the criminal case against trump under way in manhattan. justice merchant is the judge rained on 30 counts. the motion has yet to be made public, but his lawyers did release a statement saying this, quote, president trump, like all americans, is entitled under the constitution to an impartial judge and fair legal process. that's what his lawyer said in that statement, adding that the motion alleges merchant has significant complex. "the new york times" reports this. quote, their motion to recuse faces something of an uphill climb. the decision rests in the hands of justice merchant, who also presided under the unrelated tax trial last year of trump's company. the company's lawyers sought justice merchant's recuse until that case as well, but he declined to step aside. it's become expected now as trump's legal vulnerabilities escalate, so too will his

attacks on everyone involved, especially those overseeing these cases. he lashed out at lewis caplan, the judge in the civil case brought byie ejean carroll. in 2007, he took aim at army berman jackson who presided over roger stone's criminal case. back in 2016, he said the judge hearing the fraud lawsuit involving trump university had a conflict of interest because of the judge's mexican heritage. remember that? he's also viciously attacked both special counsels that investigated him, robert mueller and jack smith. he's even called district attorneys alvin bragg fawnie willis racist. it is not a new tactic for trump who threw out his presidency to question the motives or legitimacy of court rulings. but it is notable at a time in

his 2024 bid for the white house has included vows of retribution for those who feel they have been wronged by the government. trump's familiar playbook of attacking the justice system at a moment of incredible peril in the country is where we begin the hour. former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade is here. also joining us editor at large of the 19th and msnbc contributor errin haines is back. still with us dave aronberg, attorney for palm beach county, florida. barb, i can't unhear, and i can't unsee the dhs warning from about a week and a half ago, warning that ahead of the 2024 election, we should be on the lookout and extra vigilant i think is the word they use for political related grievances targeting just about everybody, except republicans. i think every group is named in there. ethnic minorities, racial minority, democrats, government buildings, government

institution, political party. it is so sweeping that some people worry you can't really do much about it. it's basically everybody beyond guard. so this rhetoric and these attacks don't happen in a vacuum. how do we protect the individual justices, but how do we protect the rule of law? >> yeah, i think it's such an important point, nicole. there may be people out there who might engage in political violence. we can't control everyone. but what we can control is the rhetoric used by leaders and public candidates for office. there is a concept in terrorism known as stocastic terrorism. that is when a leader talks about targeting individuals, whether it's judges or political opponents or others. there is somebody, they may not know who, but there is somebody out there who will hear that as a call to action. and so when donald trump is criticizing judges and political opponents and others, he has to know that it is likely someone's going to take the bait. we've already seen it happened before. there is cesar sayoc who was the

pipe bomber who reacted in response to some of his hero donald trump's statements. we know about the man in cincinnati, ohio who after the search at mar-a-lago tried to breach an fbi field office there and ended up being killed in a standoff. so it's incredibly dangerous when people engage in this kind of stocastic terrorism. i think we as voters have to take back our power and say we're not going to stand for it because it incites political violence. it's so dangerous in our country. >> and what you're describing is already happening. this is nbc's reporting. trump judge and his family receive threats. in the 24 hours since donald trump's arraignment, the presiding judge and his family have received multiple threats. that's according to two sources. one official said dozens of threats have recently been directed at judge juan merchan in his chambers. the other source said manhattan d.a. alvin bragg and other top officials in his office continue

to receive threats. the threats have been in the form of calls, emails, and letters. we've also learned that the online bios of the employees at the manhattan district attorney's office were recently removed from the d.a.'s website because they were being attacked on trump's truth social platform. >> yeah. these kinds of incidents are really dangerous to democracy, and it's really dangerous to public service. if you're a public servant, a prosecutor, a judge, someone who just works in those offices, you might be inclined not to take those jobs in the future if it involves risks to your personal safety. donald trump is very savvy when he makes these statements. he complains about being treated unfairly. he does not threaten to harm these people himself. but he knows there are people out there who will hear that grievance and take up arms on his behalf. that's the kind of reckless behavior we need to take a stand against because it is eventually going drive good people from public office. >> at least one person very close to trump doesn't want anything to do with this and is

taking up for the judge. let me play you joe tacopina's response to dana bash when asked about this. >> you know, i have no issue with this judge whatsoever. >> well, your client does. >> reputation. my client has a right to have an issue with everything. he has been politically persecuted. >> my client has a right to throw things and act in a way that endangers the rule of law. but it's so bad, i'm not going to associate with that. have you ever seen that before? >> no, no. we're in uncharted territory. tacopina has to worry about getting sanctioned by the court and has to appear before these judges in the future. so he is not taking part in any of this. trump is doing this for a particular reason. he is in a competitive primary. he wants to gin up his base because he knows nothing fuels the maga base more than grievance. martyrdom is their spinach. yeah, he's being persecuted. we have to rally to his side, especially when the iowa

caucuses are not that far away. >> i wonder, and i think that's been sort of the conventional wisdom, but i wonder, and i hear this anecdotally. it's hard to measure in a poll. if trump becomes that guy with so much badge, it's not worth it. you look at desantis, you can get over eating the pudding with his fingers and two ways to pronounce desantis, he is trump without some of that baggage. >> yeah. i mean, you're exactly right, nicolle, that whether we're talking about the courts or whether we're talking about our democracy, this is a very familiar playbook for the former president. when you don't like the system, just discredit, with the attacks, to try to distract from the substance of the issue. yes, the former president is somebody who is used to either playing by his own rules or acting like the rules don't apply to him, and that has been a successful strategy for most of his life. but we can see that what's becoming clear for him is that the court of public opinion is not necessarily the court of law. but they may be, as you say, as

these things continue to escalate and there continues to be more baggage, you can see those two things aligning even more. his voters may have been, may be willing to look the other way, but at least in civil court, we've seen that jurors have not been willing to do so. a state prosecutor has shown that he is not willing to do so. and another may be on the way. so to barb's point and to dave's point, shouting this down and not letting this become normalized could also have an effect maybe on some of his voters as his baggage continues to pile up. >> and i guess i would say one thing i know about politics that is unchanged is that you can't predict the change. it's unknowable whether they'll always be there. maybe they'll be there for the next 100 years. maybe he will never be aublg to do anything wrong that is not as fixed as people assume. do you think there is an element of these taxes that has worked? do you think he keeps doing things like this, risking been sanctioned, risking things that

if a jury is to find out about it, may not go in his favor legally, do you think it has a chilling effect on any of the judges or juries or the system itself? >> no. and he keeps losing in court. it clearly doesn't work. i think in addition to stirring up his base, he wants to influence future decisions. i think he thinks of it like nba players in the final start tonight. >> go heat. jimmy butler. >> fellow floridian. thank you. so i think when you see the nba game tonight, you're going to see the players and the coaches yell at the refs and complain to the refs. they know that the refs are not going to change the last call, but they're trying to work the refs for the next call. >> let's stay with that. the differences, they're not going to call their fans out of the stands and attack and engage in medieval combat with the judges and the other team. whatever the call, they may have a review, but then they'll keep playing. what trump did is assemble the mob on to the floor to engage with combat with the other team. >> that's what makes so it dangerous. it's more than just playing for

the next call, which we all know happens. it doesn't work in the courts. it's the threat of danger, of violence. we saw that, as barbara said, in cincinnati, after trump revealed the names of two fbi agents who searched his home at mar-a-lago. there were unprecedented threats against the fbi. and then you have that lunatic in cincinnati actually tried to attack the fbi headquarters there. and so there are real world consequences of this. and i think the next step is going to have to be a partial gag order against the former president. maybe that's the quickest way for him to end up in an orange jumpsuit. >> how can he not violate that? in this vein, i just want the share a little bit more reporting with you, barbara mcquade. this is also from the hill. the number of threats against federal judges hit about 4500 in 21 following the january 6th riot and claims that the election was stolen. those figures jumped again in 2022 to more than 5,000, according to the u.s. marshals service, which tracks the threats and inappropriate communications against federal

judges. that doesn't happen in a vacuum. that happens as tucker carlson is selectively editing over 44,000 hours of security footage to though that the qanon shaman was just hanging out at the capital, not that he is guilty for the crimes for which he has already served time for and i think already been released. the architecture of disinformation is so sophisticated that there probably are still people out there like the guy who testified in the january 6th select committee's public hearings last summer who said i would have left, but i believed it all. we are still pumping disinformation to a very agitated republican base. >> the way you started this segment by talking donald trump's history of complaining about the judges in all of his case, really, is every single judge who's ever been assigned to a trump case against him? is he just that unlucky? no. it's just that he complains about every judge and the outcome of every case.

i was always taught regardless of the outcome, if you had any comment at all about the judge's conduct, you said we respect the rule of the court, we respect their opinion, we respectfully disagree with it. reasonable minds can disagree. words along those lines. what you didn't want to do is undermine public confidence in the court system itself. we are a nation of laws. we disagree about all kinds of things. and that's fine and that's expected. buff we agree that we resolve those matters in court. and even if we may not like the outcome because it goes against our interests, we respect it, we obey it and we move on. to attack judges really attacks the rule of law. >>errin, there is a piece lost in the big lie. the 61 cases trump lost, more than a couple were decide by trump-appointed judges. there were some very extreme maga judges on the field, right, especially the one down in

amarillo take mefopristone off the market. trump was dealt a lot of losses in court after his 2020 defeat. >> no, that's absolutely right. and i would the inauguration that happened successfully after the insurrection. these are ways of rejecting and not rewarding this behavior. yes, some people certainly some of his voters take this as kind of the signal that they need to act. but also, you have judges, you have prosecutors, you have jurors and other americans who are saying no, we are not going to condone this. we in fact are going to continue with the norms in our society, the rules that, again, either he's decided is simply going to try to change and say we are not

going to do that. we are going to proceed with the rule of law. we are going to proceed with the norms of our democracy and the that. i guess to take a page from dave's analogy and yes, though he indeed is -- >> starting to feel bad for denver. we have yours there too. >> yes. the refs keep reffing, despite the protests of players who don't necessarily like the calls. >> i want to come back to that. and i want to ask you what it's like from local prosecutors to be out front and ahead of doj. do you think that's a scary place to be? >> yeah. i really think the first prosecutor to prosecute a former president of the united states should be the top prosecutor in the country, the attorney general. garland took a while. his investigation was meticulous. he had a special prosecutor pointed who is jack smith, who is a pit bull, which is good. but also keep in mind the new

york matter occurred years before january 6th. >> right. >> the new york matter occurred years before mar-a-lago documents. you can see why that one went first. but from a local prosecutors standpoint, we are elected with a political party affiliation after our name. it's just the reality. and so we leave ourselves open to always being attacked, oh, you're being political. the bottom line is you have to have the evidence and the law on your side or else you can't move forward with the charges. i think alvin bragg has that on his side. >> what do you think, barbara, someone said to me there is sort of this indiscernible psychic exposure if you will to sort of being first. and i take dave's point that it may not be the first case that goes to trial. and on the hush money case, there was a decision by sdny not to ever charge or bring the campaign finance case that is described narratively in michael cohen's sentencing memos there is a campaign finance conspiracy for which trump is named individual one. so it's not like they didn't look at it. but alvin bragg has gone first. what are your thoughts and what is your level if any of concern

for these local prosecutors who may very well be out ahead of doj? >> i think it's much more difficult to go first. i'm reminded of a situation where i was the beneficiary, as u.s. attorney in the eastern district of michigan. we were investigating the former mayor of detroit on a number of corruption charges. and he got indicted first in the state court system for committing perjury during a trial. he was convicted and resigned from office as a result of the perjury conviction. and what was so interesting about that, we became the immediate beneficiaries of that result because people suddenly saw that the emperor had no close. and people who once feared him or wanted to curry favor with him suddenly no more and were willing to come in and talk with us about all kinds of things. so i think alvin bragg is the lead blocker here, and everyone else will ride his coattails. but there is also some harm and risk that comes with being the lead blocker, and that is you also attract all of the criticism, which i'm sure is

coming alvin bragg's way. so i think, though, those who follow will be the beneficiaries of his courage. >> yeah, and the blast radius around him is just remarkable. i have to set the record straight on my basketball affection. i am a warriors fan. i bleed blue and gold. but in their absence in the final, i will root for your heat and my son's heat more importantly. good luck tonight. >> thank you. we'll take second best, as long as it not second best in the finals. in your heart, but not in the finals. >> i think it's going to be great. i think i hope you're not in transit when the game starts. i hope you get in front of the tv before that. barbara mcquade, thanks for starting us off. errin sticks around for the hour. when we come back, how bad are things for republican tommy tuberville? remember him? the one who says white nationalists belong in the military, the one who is risking our national security over the military's reproductive health care policies? well, today it is so bad that

his own brother is speaking out against him. we'll bring you that story after a quick break. and later in the hour, amid a wave of deadly attacks of the ukrainian capital of kyiv, we will check back in with our dear friend iva novikov and find out what he and his family are doing there. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. (tap, tap) listen, your deodorant just has to work. i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later i still smell fresh. secret works. ohhh yesss. ♪ ("i like to move it" by reel 2 real plays) ♪ we're reinventing our network... for total confidence and complete control. ♪ ♪ fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service.

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what senator tuberville is doing is trying to impose his right-wing ideological views on the military, just trying to take care of its people. i mean, it is absolutely incredible. and again, it's why the republican party is not the party of national security anymore.

>> that was our friend amy mcgrath earlier this week on alabama senator tommy tuberville's obstruction of military promotions and its real world impact on national security and military readiness. same senator who said that white nationalists belong in the military. tuberville has continued to double and triple and quadruple down on his racist remarks and anti-american sentiments. a local paper reports that during a 90 minute interview last week with donald trump jr. on his streaming show "triggered," tuberville said of teachers in inner city schools this, quote, i don't know whether they can read and write, end quote. wow. it's gotten so bad and so offensive and so painful that even tuberville's own brother has sought to publicly distance illegal immigrants himself from his brother, the embattled senator, saying this in a face book post. due to recent statements by him promoting racial stereotypes,

white nationalism and other various controversial topics, i feel compelled to distance myself from his ignorant, hateful rants. what i'm trying to say is i do not agree with any of the vile rhetoric coming out of his mouth. please don't confuse my brother with me. chx, charles tuberville. wow. joining our conversation is sarah longwell, a long-time republican strategist. errin haines is back with us. sarah, i'm a fan of everything you right and all of your analysis. and i feel a special pain for family members that see someone they're related to, in this case his brother, and i had a chance to interview paul gosar's brother after his anime murder video of aoc came out. and it was the same need to distance themselves from someone so radical and extreme. but i -- it seems to be a hallmark of this wave and this version of extreme republicanism.

>> yeah, i mean, we shouldn't have to rely on these people's family members to come out and disavow them. republican senators should be trying to rein these people in, should be speaking out against this. i mean, this -- him holding up these dod nominees, that affects military morale. it affects readiness. he is an extreme -- and this sort of what's going on with these republicans, right. they have lost the ability to rein in the extremism in their midst. and they used to be able to do it. people like steve king, as recently as 2019 would be censured. but something about this new trump rear with marjorie taylor greene and lauren boebert and paul gosar and all these crazy -- they've stopped having any sense of feeling of obligation to speak out or do anything to sort of pull these guys back and say that this is not okay because they've all decided it's fine. >> right. i think if they have all decided it's fine, i don't know why

democrats aren't more aggressive at tagging every republican, should have to answer for tommy tuberville's position of abuse. his brother did, his own brother living a life as a private citizen has spoken out more effectively as has paul gosar's brother. what is the fundamental brokenness of the right that they can't speak out and say that flagrantly stupid and racist things are flagrantly suped and racist? >> right. this is where trump built up a kind of muscle memory. they figured out either they could ignore it, they could pro tend that they didn't see it. they knew that they wouldn't be punished by the voters. they know the voters aren't going to hold them accountable for something that tommy tuberville says. so they have sort of found all these mechanisms for coping in a way they used to feel an obligation, a moral obligation to say something, not the least of which was a political obligation to say something. they assumed they would be punished for it in some way if

they didn't speak out against this extreme behavior. but as voters have shown them there is basically no extreme behavior that they won't tolerate, they've shown more and more willingness to just kind of pretend. because it's not just tommy tuberville. there all these characters in the republican party now that are constantly saying things that need to be disavowed. and maybe it's just the sheer force and volume of it, that at this point they simply -- they just don't do anything about it. >> errin haines, let me show you what tim gosar had to say about his brother. >> i believe he's dangerous, unhinged and is reckless and somebody that as we've -- and i've said before, needs to not only censored, but he needs to be expelled. and if at the end of that process, if he gets expelled and criminal charges are warranted, then criminal charges should be brought as well. >> isn't that hard? and he is related to him. republicans couldn't it they're sentence. we looked high and low, and we

couldn't find it. but i guess my question, and maybe i watched too much aaron sorkin. but on election day, sydney allen wade thought voters cared what she told them to care about. do you think there is an opportunity for democrats to remind people exactly who the republicans are, if they associate with and refuse to, as sarah points out, condemn or ex-expel people like tommy tuberville? >> yeah, it's going to be another rough thanksgiving at some of these politicians' households it looks like. yes, to your point about democrats. but honestly, i do think that there is value in people like gosar's brother, like charles tuberville speaking out. politicians are okay with this because they think that so many of these voters are okay with this. and so to have these family members speaking out and saying his brother literally saying don't confuse me with senator tuberville, telling his family, his friends, his fans, again, he

is a musician on facebook that i'm not okay with what this person is doing. imagine if nor voters, more people in his community were actually to speak out and publicly kind of reject, you know, the rhetoric and the actions of senator tuberville that have been racist, right? president biden may be running a campaign for the soul of the nation asking kind of is this who we are? but a lot of americans, regardless of party are asking themselves is this who i want to be. here we have senator tuberville's brother saying i do not want to be on the wrong side of history. my brother does not represent me. this is somebody that performs with black artists. so his brother's stance might also be affecting his livelihood as well as his relationships. >> sarah, do you think this is where the republican base is happy to be, where military appointments and confirmations are obstructed by one republican senator who is opposing them over a health care policy that

would be granted to someone serving overseas? all it is paying for travel where the access to health care, reproductive health care is legal? is that where the base is? have you seen date that that suggests they're fine withholding up and impacting military readiness? >> well, you know, i do focus groups just about every week with trump voters. and i'll tell you what they want. they want people who are going to fight and are going to go on sort of kamikaze missions for their values. and that is leading to more and more extreme behavior from these republican elected officials. but i'll tell you who doesn't like it, and that's swing voters. so while the gop base may be creating the incentives for this kind of behavior, what you saw, for example, in 2022 is that these extreme candidates are punished by swing voters. they don't like things like this. they do not like how far sort of trumpy maga the republican party has gotten. and so one of the things i've

observed is that the gap between what base voters want and what swing voters will tolerate has gotten very wide. that is going to be a constant electoral problem for republicans as long as they continue to tolerate this. >> that's so interesting. inger i think, errin you saw mitch mcconnell. to his credit leading into the 2022 results. it's not the democratic party's job or role or responsibility to police a broken party on the other side. but, again, in sort of the bucket of opportunity, do you hear more democrats seeing opportunity to be the party of national security? >> well, i think that this particular example really does present an opportunity potentially for democrats. here we have the senator's national security adviser having to resign, even though he remained unapologetic after this

"washington post" story reporting he is behind senator tuberville's strategy of stalling military nominations. when you frame the conversation in terms of this strategy being a threat to military readiness, a threat to our national security, this is no longer just a conversation about abortion, which by the way, you do have a majority of americans saying that they believe that people should have access to safe reproductive rights care. and so, you know, for folks who are supportive of the military, including republican voters, for senator tuberville to be doing this in the name of the culture wars is maybe something that is not going to rub some voters the right way. >> we will all keep watching with both of your help. sarah longwell, thank you so much for being here. it's great to talk to you. errin haines, thank you so much for starting us off today. shifting gears in a wave of

new attacks against the ukrainian capital, we'll check in with our dear friend igor novikov on what life is like on the ground for people living in kyiv. he will be our next guest. don't go anywhere.

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less, after cruise and ballistic missiles hit just before 3:00 a.m. officials said there was little time for residents to shelter after air raid sirens blared, and reports suggest that at least one of the victims died after finding a nearby shelter locked. the attack comes after a month which saw 17 attacks in the city. and the continued assault is taking a toll on the residents of kyiv, leaving that city in the state of heightened anxiety, according to one mother, quote, these attacks are very exhausting because we do not sleep at night, said anastasia, 32. she said she was constantly worried about her two children, about the dangers flying through the night sky, about where to hide. quote, even if i fall asleep, i have nightmares, she adds. joining our conversation at the table, bloomberg opinion columnist bobby ghosh. and igor novikov. how you? >> i'm doing well. there are some strategic bombers up in the air and drones up in

the air. so tonight is going to be another night of bombings. so i'm bracing myself for that. >> igor, what do you know of this horrifically tragic story? i know if we get distracted in this country, there are tragedies every day happening every day in your country. but last night, three people died, including a child. >> it was absolutely horrible. i was awake. i heard the explosions. they were quite loud. so my house was literally shaking. and the place where that happens is actually roughly ten minutes away from my office. and what makes matters worse is that one of the bomb shelters was not operating in that area, and the people were actually killed trying to get into that bomb shelter. so it's a horrific situation. unfortunately, this is not a one-off. three days ago, a friend of mine was killed in her apartment by a drone. so this is a daily reality we just have to live with it. >> igor, what is the thinking on

if newfound intensity of strikes on kyiv? >> well, there are a number of reasons. first of all, they're trying to wear down the air defenses that embarrasses russia quite a lot because it has intercepted pretty much everything that russia has. and that kind of takes way the super power status, including probably the nuclear threat that they're trying to use. so that's one of the reasons. the second reason, they basically, they're trying to terrorize us into submission, as always. and to give you an idea what it feels like, it is just like living through 9/11 that never stops. like 9/11 for a week in a row. and it's horrific. >> i need you say more, igor. tell us how that impacts you and your family that's we've come to know and think about and worry about? >> well, i'll give you a

positive. somewhat anti-utopian but positive story. night six of these attacks, we've seen pretty much everything. even my 3 1/2-year-old sleeps through them now. i told you a story about a mountain troll eat taos much yogurt, and i do apologize, farts in the night, and that explains the explosions. so i kind of sold her on that lie. and night six, i just walked out of my house, i live in a private just outside of kyiv, poured myself a glass of whiskey, lit a cigarette, and just watched the fireworks. that should describe. you can't do anything about it. you might as well accept the new reality. and i thought it was the ending scene of fight club, to be honest. but weep keeping on pretty much. >> what, if anything should we make of the drone attack on the kremlin in moscow? >> i neither confirm nor deny.

there are two points i want to make. first is that it wasn't us, or allegedly it wasn't us. secondly, look, we have a serious duty of care. because if we ever decide to attack russia and russian territory, we need to make sure we don't start killing civilians and killing them indiscriminately, because if we do kill them, how are we different from putin? and, you know, that's something to consider. so i think it's more -- it's more now a psychological warfare on russian territory, reminding the quiet and submissive russian population that, you know, their government is committing atrocities and crimes and terrorizing an innocent nation. >> and that is the position of the current american president, that putin is carrying out atrocities and war crimes. igor is acutely aware that that is not the position of his

potential opponent in a general election, who a week ago said the war would end i think it was in day, two days. what do you feel like the stakes are right now in this country? not just for keeping the focus on life in kyiv, the threat posed by vladimir putin. but of the very real and perhaps unpleasant consideration that our domestic politics could very well impact what happens on the ground. >> it is a serious concern, and it's not just being felt by ukrainians, but all of europe, and all of the free world is watching to see what the united states does and whether there will be a change in the government in a year and change, and whether that will change america's posture. it's really quite interesting, though. when you talk to people and republicans in congress, there still is a strong sense of purpose, a strong sense of duty to support ukraine. but when you look at the presidential candidates who are hungry for publicity, who are hungry to get noticed, they are

saying much more radical things. donald trump's not the only one. and that's something that will give putin comfort, the hope that all his problems go away if donald trump becomes president. but it will also make all our allies nervous about whether they sleep well at night. and it will affect their commitment to the cause of ukraine. it's not just the united states carries most of the load of supporting ukraine. but ukraine's neighbors in europe carry quite a lot of that load as well, particularly dealing with refugees and providing not just weapons, but food and shelter. so all of this is up in the air a year from now when the election takes place in the united states. so it's a very, very big deal. for now, biden is holding the line. congress is holding the line. but for how long. >> you're right. it is a bipartisan majority.

>> for now. >> for now. igor, i know you like to stay out of our politics, but i'll give you last word if you want it on this part. >> well, you're right. i do prefer to stay out. but look, we understand all the dangers, and obviously the rhetoric coming, especially from former trump is horrifying. i once gave an example so he said something about ending the war in ukraine. and he said it the next day after we got attacked, and they spent the night listening to missiles. what i can tell you what trump is saying is far more petrifying and terrifying than listening to russian missiles exploding outside your house. that's as far as i'll go. >> the first lady of ukraine is speaking out on international children's day. i'll tell you about that. i have to fit in a quick break. igor and bobby are sticking around. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe.

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money stresses me out. so, i got this experian app, and now, i'm checking my fico® score. i got a new credit card, and i'm even finding ways to save. finally getting smart about money feels really good. see all you can do with the free experian app. download it now. we're back with bobby ghosh and our friend igor novikov has stayed up late for us in kyiv. i want to share with both of you something that first lady melena zelenskyy tweeted today. "children's day has to be about safe childhood, summer, life. but today it is about new crimes of russian federation against ukrainian children. a 9-year-old girl was killed in the shelling of kyiv, and another is now in the hospital. it is a pain for all of us. our thoughts are with their families." children not only have not been spared, but seem to be among the fair game targets of vladimir putin's brutal, brutal campaign

of terrorism against the civilian population. what sort of should people expect as there are some signs of unrest politically speaking back in moscow? >> well, it's not clear that we should be too optimistic, because the criticism that came from an opposition figure on russian television, who openly said that there should be a change of government, that's a big deal, that someone was able to get on national television and say that. he was immediately that. he was immediately shut down, and the host of the program immediately shut him down. there are other signs of division and criticism of putin, but they come to the far right, people even more extreme in their views are worried that putin's too soft. so killing kids, not enough. you know, these are people who

want to see more children die and who want to see the entire ukrainian population wiped out, and they're saying so openly, and they think putin's not being tough enough, not being cruel enough. that's something we need to keep an eye on and we need to be worried about. i don't think putin's at any risk himself. he controlled all the important levers of the state. but he may feel compelled to respond to that pressure and ratchet up the violence and the targeting of civilian targets in ukraine, and that's something we need to worry about. >> igor, that seems unimaginable to me. you get the last word. >> well, i think you're misinterpreting what's going on here, because putin has way more control than you think over russian propaganda, media and the political spectrum, especially the far right so what's really going on here, he's staging a false kind of dissent campaign between -- to

give people like donald trump to say, if putin goes down and his regime goes down, the only options we have are far worse. we need to preserve putin. i think that's what's going on. >> thank you for spending time with us. please stay safe. quick break for us. we'll be right back. ight back. s of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. (♪ music ♪)

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this day is the day to celebrate. as your commander in chief i'm honored to be here as you take on the duties of serving and defending our nation. class of 2023 -- you have been trained to lead, to set an example of your leadership for others. you are the very embodiment of the american military excellence. you are ready for anything. anything. >> that was president joe biden this afternoon delivering his third commentment address. shaking hands with each of this year's more than 900 cadets as they crossed the stage. president biden's address offered them a warning of the rapidly changing world they're graduating into, but also a message of thanks and hope for their service. he said his son beau told him

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber, who is back in the chair, starts right now. >> good to see you nicolle. >> have a good show. >> thank you so much. happy to be back with all of you. and tonight, we are tracking the new evidence that's putting heat on donald trump and raising questions about a possible second indictment of the former president. there he was at his first indictment, his new york