so they can't find the document. we are learning more about this week's blockbuster reporting that special counsel jack smith

has an audio recording of former president trump in 2021 seemingly admitting, again, on tape, that he took a classified document with him when he left the white house, a classified document allegedly detailing plans of how the u.s. could attack iran. that document. well tonight, we have new reporting that trump's lawyers do not know where the document is. they are unable to find the war plans trump may have been casually waving around at his new jersey golf club two years ago. everybody check your golf carts, ask your caddies! anyone see stray plans for war in iran? no. we are going to talk about that a little bit later tonight. but we also have some big news in one of the other big trump investigations. it came out of fulton county, georgia where district attorney fani willis is investigating trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election results. let me back up first. do you remember this story from february about how trump's campaign hired a team of researchers to prove their bogus 2020 fraud claims? their claims that the election

had been stolen? it turns out that when trump's own researchers found there was no there there, trump's campaign buried that report. that was followed by this story but from april about how trump's campaign had actually hired a second team of researchers to also try to prove the campaign's bogus 2020 election fraud claims. that second firm also found zero evidence of election fraud. so, trump's campaign buried that second report as well. tonight, the washington post reports that in recent days, dea fani willis has sought information from both of those research firms. she's also gone as far as to subpoena at least one of them. and what makes fani willis looking into these firms and their reports, what makes that so interesting, what makes it substantively different from other dribs and drabs we've gotten out of this investigation so far is this, quote, willis's office has asked both firms for

information, not only about georgia, but about other states as well. i know that for a lot of people around the country, the moment trump's get me 11,780 votes call became public the case against him in georgia seem basically open and shut. there was trump on tape using fake election claims to pressure georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger to swing the state in his favor. but in the court of law, the burden of proof is high. you have to be able to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that trump knew he was lying when he made those assertions that the election was stolen. and so in that regard, these reports, and the firms that wrote them they are key. remember this claim that trump made on that same call while trying to pressure raffensperger to find him those 11,000 votes. >> the other thing, dead people.

so dead people voted, and i think the number is close to 5000 people. and they went to obituaries. they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5000 voters. >> beyond that claim being bonkers, it is also incredibly specific. and trump should've known at the time that it was wrong. one of the groups that trump campaign hired to look into the fraud claims, the berkeley research group, they had already debunked this. they found that they were at maximum 23 ballots that may have been cast in the name of a dead person in georgia. 23. and they told trump himself before his call with raffensperger. quote, senior officials from the berkeley research group briefed trump, then chief of staff mark meadows and others on the findings in the december 2020 conference call. trump knew! he knew, or at least he was told in no uncertain terms that there was no fraud. no thousands or even hundreds

of dead voters. so you can see why the d. a., fani willis, would want to talk to the people who gave the trump campaign that report. you can see why she might want their testimony. this was trump himself being told by his own researchers with multiple potential corroberating witnesses on the call, that his fraud claims about georgia were false. and the reason that is so important is because the defense being made by trump's allies right now, including by his former january 6th lawyer tim parlatore, to my colleague ari melber this evening tonight, is that prosecutors must be able to prove that trump knew his election fraud claims were false at the time that he was making them. >> you don't think it's heading towards an indictment of donald

trump, but you do think other people may ultimately be indicted in that? >> you know, i'm not sure really. i don't believe that it's going to touch my former client. in order for it to be something you would criminally charge, you would have to show that the claims that they made at the time where knowingly falls. you'd have to show that, for example, my former client knew that there was no fraud in the election when he claimed that. >> well, fani willis is now zeroing in on that proof, in the form of those two internally discarded reports that showed trump knew his lies were false at the time he made them. again, the washington post reporting tonight that willis's office has asked both firms for information, not only about georgia, but about other states as well. these reports looked into the trump campaign's focus voter fraud claims in state, after state, after state and they found no evidence that any of them were true. fani willis is investigating a lot of avenues here. she is looking at the calls trumped a multiple georgia state officials like brad raffensperger. she's looking at the trump campaign's effort to get the

georgia state legislature to declare trump the winner of the 2020 election. she's looking at the fake electors scheme. and she is looking at the trump campaign's potential involvement in the unauthorized breach of election equipment in coffee county, georgia. and all of these efforts by trump and his campaign are a lot harder to excuse legally when you look at the actual evidence compiled by trump's own consultants. trump's campaign had been told in december of 2020, by their own researchers, that there was no evidence of widespread voter fraud in any of the states they looked at. so their justification for pressuring the georgia state legislature, trump's justification for convening the -- asking his campaign somehow to convene fake electors, their justification for everything and coffee county, trump's justification for exactly what he was trying to do on a call with raffensperger, all of that gets a lot harder for them to hide behind. joining us now are former u. s. attorneys, barbara mcquade and harry litman.

barbara and harry are of course also msnbc legal analysts. thank you for being here. harry, let me first start with your reaction to the subpoenas that we are finding out about in fulton county and how meaningful you think they are in the building of a larger case against trump vis-ã -vis his efforts to steal the election. >> so i think they're very meaningful but for exactly the reason you said, that is, they show that when trump, january 2nd, is calling raffensperger, he already has the information that it's a lie. and that makes a charge under georgia law of solicitation to commit election fraud all the stronger. the reports also included teasing hints that because it's out-of-state conduct maybe willis is stretching to make this case already pretty sprawling into a state rico case which would be gargantuan. because that also lets her sweep in criminal conduct from other states. i wouldn't be so sure about that yet because as you say

there's a very good reason she would need it without bringing rico. and rico would really make this case gargantuan with the history of a large politically tinged prosecutions in this country is not a happy one. so we'd be biting off a much, much more than she has to. >> can you talk about the rico chart potential rico case, barb? because whenever fani willis's name is mentioned, rico racketeering is soon to follow. and a lot of folks think outside the d. a.'s office that it may be a rico charge that she is looking at for trump. to harry's point, how difficult would that be, and which she have to look at actions and other states or could you just look at what happened in georgia? >> i think the reason we are hearing speculation about rico is because funny willis has a track record of using the rico statute. and sometimes --

rico can be thought of as an umbrella. if it is allowed to cover a whole variety of different crimes that at times together. so for example, it will allow a charge in the same case of both the calls to raffensperger, the false statements to the legislature, breaching of the equipment in coffee county, the false electors, all of that could come together as a pattern of racketeering activity. so for that reason, it allows a jury to understand the full scope of the crime. but i shared harry's hesitation where outside the state of georgia, and getting so much bigger, and bigger, and bigger. a common phrase prosecutors use in talking about their colleagues is, you don't have to boil the ocean. charge your case. sometimes, i think prosecutors want to try to track down every possible lead to make their case as strong as possible. at some point, you have to know that it's time to move on and i would like to see her, even if she uses rico, fine, but stick to what's happening in georgia. and --

let the justice department handle the national scope. >> just to stay on this for one more second, harry, you can build a racketeering case in georgia. part of the reason that reporting has suggested that maybe this is a more national rico case, which would be novel, is because these firms that we are talking about, the ones that were enlisted by the trump campaign to determine whether there was election fraud, they looked at activities in georgia, pennsylvania, arizona, nevada, michigan, and wisconsin. so it sounds like the thinking there, and this is really outside the box thinking is, many fani willis is looking at arizona and michigan, and other states, and saying georgia is but a piece of broader national fraud that was perpetrated by the trump campaign. is that what everyone should understand about what we're talking about here? >> yes, that is the hypothesis. and it's true that the georgia rico, which is expensive even

for rico laws, permit her to sweep in all of this stuff. remember, the special grand jury, she follows that blueprint, she's already talking about 15 or more defendants, and rico does, as barb says, sweep everything in. it basically says, it's not just discreet crimes but they're basically trump is the head of the whole racketeering enterprise that was passed originally for the mafia. so it is there in theory. but i really want to second what barb said. i think it goes for jack smith to. it's now time, having gathered all the evidence they have for them to pare down, not expand out. keeping your eye on the ball, which is conviction, rather than sprawling charges, i think is what a seasoned prosecutor will do. >> it seems like an opportune time to sound a cautionary note, right? i would like to get both of your thoughts on this, even if you talk about the aspects of the georgia case that seem most on their face wrong potentially

criminal against the law, like the call to brad raffensperger, that's actually a pretty hard thing to prove in court. setting aside trump's intent, the washington post points out that trump did not spell out explicitly that he wanted raffensperger to break the law or find the votes. a lot of people say, what do you mean? he said find me 11,780 votes. but barb, really, the bar is incredibly high in terms of what is actually criminally wrong and that conversation. is it not? >> it is. the gut reaction is that he's doing something wrong, and he may very well be. but to prove a case in court requires proof of every element of an offense beyond a reasonable doubt. and our system is designed so that we can prefer to see ten people go free rather than what

instant person be convicted. the rules are designed to ensure -- a fair trial for a defendant. so you have to show that he, for example, did not mean, i just wanted the 11,780 votes to wish that believe i was entitled in a fair and free election. i thought i had been defrauded, and i was just asking brad raffensperger to remedy the fraud. i can imagine that the defense would sound something like that. now, it's still good evidence. it's just not all the evidence. but i think if you can combine that with other factions that are going on at the same time, simultaneously, with all these other aspects, giuliani, and -- the fake electors going on, the tampering of machines in coffee county, and perhaps other conversations that trump or mark meadows had before that day, then maybe the totality of the circumstances can prove the case. but i think that standing alone does not seal the text. >> there's also the town hall sound. there is the town hall statement, or response, that former president trump gave a

few weeks ago saying, if this call was bad i said, you owe me votes because the election was rigged. the election was rigged. that was seem to buffett any prosecutorial case that this was a criminal conduct on trump 's part. but i'm not a lawyer. and you are, harry, i would like to get your thoughts not just on the raffensperger call but even on the fake electors plot, which again seems, on its face, how could that not be something nefarious? how could that not be something criminal? the reality is, and this again is pointed out in the washington post, that maybe the fake electors will say they had every right to pursue potential claims of anomalies given the fact that biden's margin in georgia i believe was two tenths of 1%. and they have already made the case that they may have been convening this special elector's meeting but they had no idea that trump intended on using the alternate slates of electors as election

certifications, to basically submit false slates of electors when came time for certification in washington, d. c.. do you think that the fake electors case is harder to prove than maybe some folks think it is on its face? >> no, i think it's easier. i see the bar, but i call it medium. you're not a lawyer, but you are a juror. and jurors are used to as use their common sense. these guys, 16 of them, signed a certificate saying donald trump had won and they knew he -- and they, each signatory, was a duly elected and qualified elector which was complete malarkey and they had no basis in it. and in their closed-door meeting et cetera. but we have -- she, funny willis, has enlisted at least eight people to be cooperators. they were part of the scheme but they're gonna be able to stand up, i assume, and say, yes, here's what we're doing. yes, we knew he hadn't won, yes

we knew we weren't duly qualified electors. and i like the prosecution's chances of proving beyond a reasonable doubt, urging their jury to use its common sense. >> barb, just to update that in the washington post reporting, there is saying that the dea has struck immunity deals with 12 of the 16 fake electors. and i wonder what you think that might signal as far as how this will go down. >> i think it's a tremendous victory for fanny wallace to have 12 of the electors who were going to cooperate. they're gonna tell but the story was, by the were together, what they were doing and what purpose. there's also the evidence that -- of the state party telling them that they should keep quiet about what it was they were doing. that's what evidence prosecutors call consciousness of guilt. if you think it's a provisional ballot, in case things should turn out differently than you anticipate, there would be no reason whatsoever to conceal it into high did and not talk about it. so that's another piece of evidence that suggests to me

that this is the strong charge. >> yes, and it's worth noting that 12 of the 16 fake electors have immunity deals, not included in that number david schaffer, the former georgia republican leader, and sean still, who is now a georgia state senator. but one of the people who was apparently outside of the meeting of the fake electors trying to push the media off from covering what was happening inside the room, which again, sort of sounds like consciousness of guilt. but we will see. barbara mcquade, harry lippman, great to see you both. >> thank you, alex. >> there's much more to come this evening including more revelations in the investigation into donald trump 's handling of classified documents after he left the white house. and then, as trump faces increasing legal jeopardy, his loyalists in the house of representatives are trying to lend him a hand. we will have more on that just ahead. to keep the people that have been here taking care of us.

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awaited and good news for former vice president mike pence. not in the form of a 2024 poll where the former vice president remains mired in the low single digits. rather we learned that the justice department has given the former vp an all clear in the investigation they were conducting into the discovery of classified documents at his indiana home earlier this year.

in a letter obtained by nbc news, doj -- not pursuing charges and the investigation has been closed. so finally, some good news for mr. pence, who is expected to officially announce his confounding bid for the presidency next week. the same, however, cannot be said for donald trump, whose legal woes continue to worsen and who was already complaining about mike pence again. he posted on truth social today, quote, that's great, but when am i going to be fully exonerated? i'm at least as innocent as he is! the exoneration for trump right now seems unlikely. especially after this week's reporting that the special counsel has obtained an audio recording of trump acknowledging he held on to a classified document about a potential attack on iran after leaving the white house. crucially for prosecutors, in that recording, trump reportedly suggested that he would like to share the information but was aware of

limitations on his ability post presidency to declassify records. the former president admitting that on tape would undercut trump's longtime argument that he had already declassified all the materials he took with him when he left the white house. this recording is a big deal. and it remains unclear tonight just how the special counsel obtained this very essential recording. we know it was made during a meeting trump held in 2021 at his golf club in new jersey with two people who are working on the audi biography of mark meadows, his former chief of staff. the meeting was also attended by several trump aides including margo martin who often recorded brooke interviews that trump was doing. also trump's spokeswoman at the time. but when prosecutors questioned margo martin before a federal grand jury, they already had the recording in their position. so, where and who did they get

it from? also today we learned that the special counsel's office had spent a subpoena to trump's lawyers seeking the actual iran document referred to by trump on this tape. the former president's attorneys have been unable to find it. where that document is located or whether it even exists, that may take some time to sort out. but as usual, mr. trump is not providing any answers. >> a news broadcast today that there might be a tape recording that, quote, you acknowledge, that you understood that these were classified documents. first of all, do you know who this call maybe? with >> i don't know anything about it. all i know is that this -- everything i did was right. this is about election interference. mar-a-lago is a fort. it's a continuation of the greatest witch hunt of all-time. it's a hoax! >> joining us now is former u. s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg who is also of course a msnbc contributor. chuck, it's good to see you. thank you for being with us tonight. i don't know what level of importance you ascribe to this

missing document that nobody seems to know exactly what it is or where it is? >> not as much as you might expect, alex. what i think is important and you spoke about it in the introduction, is the acknowledgment by mr. trump on a recording that he understood the classification system that there were limits on what he could do post presidency and that he couldn't share information because he wasn't able any longer to declassify this information. who would be great for the government to get the document, if it's out there floating around, they certainly wanted back for national security purposes. having it could help cooperate other parts of the case. it would also indicate that there are additional documents, not yet returned or found by the fbi. but i think the really important thing is that reporting. >> you know, we talk about this document and it leads one to focus on the fact, perhaps, that this document we're talking about is not in mar-a-lago. this is a document that potentially trump was waving round in bedminster, which is in new jersey. now, at a point folks were asking, when is that property

going to get searched and the conclusion was that there was not probable cause to search those properties. do you think this at all establishes probable cause to search bedminster? >> i don't, and that may explain that. you need probable cause, which comes directly from the fourth amendment, to do two things. one, you have to demonstrate to a judge that there's probable cause that a crime has been committed. and two, just as important, that you're going to find evidence of the crime at the place you search. there is a doctrine within fourth -- in the fourth amendment jurisprudence called staleness. if the information you have about the thing you're looking for is old, right, you allegedly waved around this document in july of 2021, almost two years ago, then you'll probably cause will be stale. you won't be able to convince a judge, nor should you try, to sign a search warrant if the only thing you have tying that evidence to that house is two years old. so the department of justice

did exactly the right thing, alex. they issued a grand jury subpoena for the document, if it exists, then it's incumbent on a lawyer to turn it over. if it doesn't exist, maybe we find it somewhere else. but no, i don't think that would be probable cause today to search bedminster. not at least on that basis. >> can we talk about the recording itself for a moment? because you know, i don't -- i'm not sure anyone can say at the structure where it came from, but the new york times seems to offer thinly veiled suggestion that maybe mark meadows has something to do with it. mark meadows as of right now is a person for whom the trump campaign -- hasn't heard from in a while. this used to be the presidents chief of staff. we have some reporting that suggest the trump campaign and the trump pack might have been paying mark meadows legal bills and now all of a sudden no one 's heard from him and there is a very explosive piece of potential evidence that may have come from mark meadows.

how are you reading the tea leaves as it concerns mark meadows and whether or not he might be a cooperating witness at this point? >> he would certainly be an important witness. he was the presidents chief of staff at the end of the trump presidency. he was around him all the time, he had proximity, he would've spoken to him and heard what he was saying and knew what he was thinking. so he is an important witness. whether or not he provided that recording i don't know. perhaps we will find out one day. but it doesn't matter. there's a lot of ways through the federal rules of evidence, and i promise not to get too nerdy here on you, alex -- >> nerd out! >> to show that the recording is authentic. anybody else who's in the room, who could identify mr. trump's voice, who knew the recording was being made could authenticate it. that part is easy. and you don't necessarily need mark meadows to authenticate

the recording. he could, he might be able to, but there are other ways to do it of course. what meadows is important for, as i articulated, at least i articulated it, is that -- would've known but he was saying and what he was thinking. the fact that the trump camp has not heard from him mesa just that meadows is cooperating. i would imagine that if meadows had a good attorney, he or she would tell them don't talk publicly about anything you might testify to. keep your thoughts to yourself. there will be a time and place for it down the road. >> chop, how do you square the tape that we have of donald trump and his statements when he speaks to people like sean hannity? and specifically his statements to sean hannity? what is it suggests to u.s. trump as a reliable narrator both to his lawyers and as a potential witness and all of this? >> so one is talking development alex, he's not

terribly reliable. i don't put much stock into what he says on television. that said, he may never be a witness in his own case, right? he has the absolute right under the fifth amendment to not testify, to not present any defense. and i imagine, by the way, prosecutors would be salivating -- salivating, to use all those extraneous statements he makes all over the place to cross examine him. so, not reliable, not someone who ought to get on the stand and testified in his own defense. if we get to that point, and he chooses to do so, the cross-examination would be worth the price of admission. >> well, yes. that's an understatement. really quickly, chuck, we were told that this investigation may be coming to a conclusion very shortly, that there could be an indictment coming down the pike. there seems to be some concern about where jack smith may try and charge the former president if indeed he does that. do you see this at all being an issue, that trump could fight a

potential indictment in washington, d. c. because mar-a-lago is of course located in florida? >> yes, venue is an elastic concept. let me explain that, alex. venue is the place where you bring the charges. it's where you indict, and where you try the case. you can have venue appropriately in any district where the crime was begun, continued, or completed. so as long as the department of justice's election appropriate venue, it could be d. c., it could be washington, it could be somewhere in between, as long as they have an appropriate venue, i don't think mr. trump is going to be able to move it. he might try, by the, way remember a lot of the january six defendants filed motions in federal court in the district of columbia to change venue and not a single one prevailed. so it venue is appropriate and they're many places where it may be appropriate, the governments going to be able to keep the case where they charged it. >> last i checked, the white house in washington, d. c., those documents came from the

white house. chuck rosenberg, great to see. you thanks for making the time this friday night. >> you bet. >> still more to come this evening, president biden uses his first ever oval office address to celebrate a big victory on building bridges to his political opponents. plus, republicans in the house use their powers to represent the interests of one specific american citizen. a guy named donald trump. i will explain coming up next. (cheering) imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short. rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms, but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations, in adults 60 and older - and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com.

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the republican party just can't seem to quit. let me explain. report was released. the report had been commissioned by former attorney general bill barr to look into the fbi's investigation into donald trump's russia scandal, to investigate the investigators, as it were. the wright had been breathlessly awaiting the results hoping that it would expose a vast deep state conspiracy. it did not. even though the durham report came out empty-handed, it did spin out a new hypothesis for the right, that hillary clinton and her campaign had colluded with the government to push a trump russia conspiracy. and now, the gop is running with that. house judiciary chair jim jordan houses that he would like to see another investigation into hillary clinton. >> we're gonna talk with our lawyers, foreigners talk with

speaker mccarthy on where we proceed from here. in fact, are there people that were highlighted in the durham investigation, and the durham report that we need to talk to on the judiciary committee? we're gonna get that a good, hard luck. but none of that is on the table. >> for the record, it has been seven years, seven, since hillary even ran for president. right now to election cycles removed from hillary clinton's candidacy. and yet, it is still groundhog day. at the same time that we are seeing that play out, congressman jim jordan also appears to be using the durham report to prove that the fbi has had it out for trump all along. this week, jordan sent a letter to attorney general merrick garland asking the department of justice to turn over details on the fbi's role in the special counsel's trump investigation. and that letter, congressman jordan complains about the institutional rot that pervades the fbi. he asks the department of justice to disclose information about the use of fbi personnel by special counsel jack smith. this is certainly not the first time that republicans have

appeared to run interference on behalf of the former president. shortly after, a manhattan d. a. alvin bragg indicted former president trump, house republicans issued a subpoena. something a prosecutor who worked in bragg's office to appear before a judiciary committee for a deposition. it's a move that the manhattan d. a. was says was designed to undermine his office's criminal case against trump threatened unprecedented campaign of harassment and intimidation. and it's not just the judiciary committee! the chairman's oversight committee is also prepared to hold fbi director, chris wray, in contempt of congress for not turning over a document regarding unsubstantiated allegations about president biden and his family. mind you, the fbi has offered to make extraordinary accommodations to the committee in terms of this request. but even that is apparently not enough. >> still to come this evening, a story that is sure to raise

the blood pressure of your anti-woke family members. stay tuned for that one. plus, president biden promised he would do it, and he did, what it means for us presidency and the country with expert guidance from david plouffe. that is next. that is next. oh booking.com, ♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah.

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speaker mccarthy. he and i, in our teams, we were

able to get along and get things done. -- completely honest with one another, respectful with one another. both sides operated in good faith. both sides kept their word. >> that was president joe biden just a short time ago, giving the first oval office address of his presidency. biden's speech underscore the bipartisan nature of the legislation that just passed the house earlier this week, and the senate last night. a bill, raising the debt ceiling and staving off catastrophic default on america's debt. the president graciously acknowledged republican house speaker kevin mccarthy, and his political opponent slash counterpart in those negotiations. but i also use the opportunity to resell to the american public, his administration's accomplishments. from job creation, to lowering unemployment numbers, two signature legislation, including the inflation reduction act and the chips and science act. biden made the case that what democrats got in the bill was really the preservation of a remarkably strong legislative legacy.

joining us now is david plouffe, former white house senior adviser under president obama. david, thank you for being here tonight. did any part of these debt ceiling negotiations surprise you? >> well, i was worried for a while, alex, that they wouldn't be able to land the plane. so i'm glad they landed the plane. of course this is a ridiculous scenario. we are simply paying bills that we've already racked up, republicans obviously had no problem raising the debt ceiling under trump. but, the good news is, we are not going to have a massive self inflicted catastrophic wound to the economy. that's most important, obviously, for the economy, the american people. but also politically, that could have created a really deep recession. as joe biden is heading into his reelection year. i think you clear the decks a little bit. i'm not sure there will be much more agreement in washington on anything between now and the end of 24. so i was worried for a while that mccarthy couldn't find a way to navigate this. but they did. they actually got a lot more votes in the house than i

would've thought. well over 300. i think it's a good moment for the country. we got pretty close to really sunk catastrophic economic games that would be self inflicted by our politicians in washington. >> how do you look at it in comparison to how president obama had to navigate a debt ceiling crisis of his own and the extensive dealmaking that went on behind the scenes with mitch mcconnell. >> well, alex, it's deeply frustrating. all we are doing is simply agreeing to pay the bills that we've already decided we are going to, that congress has decided we are going to wreck up. that being said, i think democrats always or a little bit disadvantaged in these scenarios. because we tend to believe in government. we tend to be responsible. we don't want to shoot the hostage. i think my guess is, joe biden and the white house decided the most important principle is not

to default. we are going to hold the line as much as we can. but we're not willing to default. that was the same principle barack obama had back in 2011. we got very close back then to defaulting, and the economy took some shocks because of it. i think that's the commonality. there are far too many republicans. thankfully, not enough of them. but there are far too many republicans who want us to default. who want that talking point. who think it's simply the same thing as the government shutting down for a few days. as opposed to, basically sending america into a deep recession, if not depression. >> what do you think about the power of the fractious right wing of the republican conference that has voiced its displeasure with the deal that was carved out between biden and mccarthy? is it your segment that they are declining in power, that they were never serious about their demands? that they don't actually know how to negotiate budget policy? how do you read their position in all of this, and the sort of, disregard in a lot of ways, that mccarthy paid to them? >> i think kevin mccarthy also

determined that he didn't want to fault. i think that's probably a blend of, i know it's quaint, alex, but i still think some of our leaders care about the damage it can be inflicted on the economy on people. but also politically they have a very narrow house majority. he's got a lot of vulnerable house republicans who won races in 2022. that were probably in -- saying we can't have a default that we are going to be blamed for. i think those members, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 of them that have the most noise. they were never going to be for anything. i don't think that was ever in question. i think mccarthy probably comes out of this a little bit strengthened. he still definitely on probation. he wouldn't take much for him to lose his position. the fact that the vote was that resounding, we know the overall number was well north of where i thought it would be in terms of overall numbers from republican members. it makes it clear that that faction is less powerful in reality, then perhaps sometimes we treat it. >> i knew earlier --

i know what you're going to say. it's take this debt ceiling off the table, or maybe you want to say this, but let's get rid of negotiating over the debt ceiling. setting that aside, what is the lesson for democrats as you look at how biden handled this? first of all, more democrats than republicans voted for this. right? they put aside their own potential deep-seated reservations about parts of this. and ultimately were the adults in the room. but that was due in no small part, to the fact that the white house, i think, made over 140 calls over the weekend trying to walk democrats up to the line to get them in order. to assuage their fears. what is the lesson there about retail politics, and communication with your constituents from it -- in terms of the white house on the hill? >> it matters. you can't take it for granted. secondly, one commonality between 2011 and this agreement is joe biden. i was in rooms with him as he

was on the phone with mitch mcconnell, many republicans, many democrats back in 11. he did the same thing this time. he is good at this. he is trustworthy. you can count on him to know his numbers. both in terms of whip count, but also in the budget numbers. he listens. i think he puts a principle of, what am i trying to get done here? at the end of the day, he didn't want to default. i think we can learn a lot from that. people have to understand that most democrats believed that things like defaulting, in a self-inflicted wound by politicians in washington, is not why they ran for office. there's real harm. there is a performative aspect of politics now, we are far too many republicans are really just trying to get likes on social media, or get booked on a fox news and other programs like that. as opposed to treating the job seriously. i think most democrats still believe at the end of the day, even if it's painful to negotiate, we shouldn't have to do that.

even if it's painful that we have to make some concessions, i wish we did enough to do that, that at the end of the day, default would hurt a lot of people. it would really be a mortal wound to our economy. an economy, as you know right now, is not as strong as any of us would like to be. it really can't withstand a shock like that. joe biden is really good at this. i think most democrats are still serious about the job of governing. even when it's unpleasant. even when it's unfair. because of the end of the day, you are there to help people and help the economy, not hurt it. >> that's why more of them voted for this than kevin mccarthy's party. which wanted the negotiations to begin with. david plouffe, the thank you so much for joining me on this friday night. i really appreciate it. we have one more story for you tonight about a long-standing wrong that is being righted. we will explain, after a quick break. etty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one.

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at the start of the presidency, regards had a -- to issue a check on trump's executive power by overriding the president's veto of a major military defense bill. it was the first time that trump's party stood up to him in this kind of way. and it proved to be embarrassing, and more the ways than one. part of the reason why the former president vetoed this big defense bill to begin with, is because it included a provision that required the pentagon toe strapped military bases of their confederate names. but removing the names of trade and -- that was a bridge too far for donald trump. in the end, the senate voted

overwhelmingly, 81 to 13 to override the presidents veto. and commissioned, a commission was established to recommend new names for those spaces. this year, the pentagon began that mission. one of the bases on that list was the leader of a confederacy. in april, it originally became fort greg adams. four to break officers who fought against segregation in the military. starting today, the army's largest base, fort bragg, will now be known as for liberty. the north carolina base has officially given up the name of its confederate namesakes. offering instead to honor one of the founding principles of this country. that is our show for tonight, and now it's time for the last word, with ali velshi, in for lawrence. good morning allie. >> that was a great story about little changes, not so little. but they do a lot. >> they're small, but they're meaningful. and i think that's why you see a lot of tension in this countr