trump loyalist and sticking with him in 24. i think the other candidates are getting in because they see a weakness and run centers, not a weakness in donald trump, where we stand today. >> i'm sure the two of you are like great in a fun conversation about light topics, i just never had the chance to have that with either of you. one day, one day we will do that. we will celebrate not talking about much -- for the moment, this is an important conversation that i deeply appreciate. david jolly as a former congressman for florida and msnbc political analyst, bruce is a professor of history at nyu and the author of -- strongmen. from mussolini to the president. i'm also a fun guy around the table from time to time, but not often. straight ahead, the latest on the growing republican presidential field we were just talking about. several break names set to enter the race in the coming days. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning to you, it's

saturday june 3rd, i'm ali velshi, if you can believe at the iowa caucus which has kicked off the republican primary seasons are only about seven months away. the slate of candidates lining up to the 2024 republican presidential nominee has been filling up for the past couple of months. the field is about to get crowded over the next several days, but three more republicans expected to officially announce the presidential bids in the early part of next week. on tuesday, the former new jersey governor, chris christie, is expected to jump into the race with the formal announcement schedule during a town hall event in new hampshire, where he finished in six place. the last time he ran for the presidency in 2016. on wednesday, the former vice president, mike pence will celebrate his 64th birthday by making his presidential bid official and the months of speculation and setting up a challenge against his former boss. on the same day, the incumbent north dakota governor, doug burgum will also announce his campaign during an event in fargo north dakota, which is 25 miles from where he grew up. these three men will join the list of candidates who have already announced, which includes the former president

donald trump, the florida governor ron desantis, the only two candidates who are polling in double digits right now. the growing state of candidates indicates that factions of the republican party remain unconvinced at the two front runners have the race locked up. trump and desantis are polarizing figures who have pushed their party further to the right in different ways, and the list of candidates challenging them reflects how these two men have largely defined the gop over the past few years. as governor of north dakota -- desantis's legislative footsteps, signing into law several anti-lgbtq bills, and in acting one of the strictest abortion bans in the entire country. meanwhile, a handful of other candidates previously worked for the trump administration before -- the former president. mike pence, obviously, serve as trump's running mate. he was a loyal vice president up until january six of 2021, when he became the focus of trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential elections and trump literally sent a mob

after him. p literallafter dropping out in, chris christie endorsed trump and then head to trump's transitional team. he helped to prepare for the 2020 debates against joe biden, but christie quickly to distance himself from trump soon after he began spreading lies about the results of the 2020 election. christine has since become a prominent critic of the former president. nikki haley, who served at vcu and ambassador during the trump administration has kept her criticisms over -- minimum and comparison. she launched her campaign, however, by calling for, quote, a new generation to lead us into the future. at this point in the race for the gop nomination, donald trump is undoubtedly the man to beat. pulling many points ahead of everyone else, but there's still an opportunity for republicans to jump into the race and to challenge trump's front runner status, because trump remains in real legal peril. he's already been indicted by manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and the stormy daniels hush money case, which is going to go to trial in march of 2024, during the

primary season. you're reporting this week revealed that among the evidence, but the justice department special prosecutor jack smith has recovered in the mar-a-lago documents case -- making reference to a declassified documents in his possession after he left the white house. trump's attorneys, by the way, have informed the justice department that they've been unable to find the documents that trump refers to end the recording. it's unclear whether prosecutors have tracked down the document or the documents themselves, leaving open the possibility that the material remains at large, or that the famous wall street mr. trump incorrectly described it on the recording. meanwhile, in georgia, the investigation headed by fulton county district attorney -- has reportedly broaden its scope to include activities that occur in washington d.c. and other states. willis is expected to make and announce her charging decisions -- has a separate ongoing january six investigation on top ugly

one of the mar-a-lago documents. joining me now is -- an msnbc analyst is -- msnbc political contributor, the author of the book the impostors, how republicans quit governing and seize american politics. good morning to both of you. cynthia, let me start with, you because i have been developments that, while they may seem incremental to some people, are both really, really important. the expansion of the georgia investigation into donald trump, potentially as it's reported by the washington post and this reporting about what appears to be a war, a military plan against iran that donald trump made a reference to have inning and acknowledging the recordings that he may have the classified. he knowledge is that he's talking to someone about a classified document that he had after being president. >> right, and let's just for a minute step back from the world of democrats and republicans. the idea that he would

declassify a document on iran war plans that could get to our adversaries against the world is shocking. i mean, just think about that for a minute, and our men and women are poised to go overseas, that may have to go overseas, and he certainly in their lives. we want to talk about in terms of dnr and primary, no, it's life and death. this is not just a game against trump to try to stop him from being president. this is the process by the justice department to protect our military, that he would declassify this document or any other document and threaten the lives of the young men and women that protect our country is shocking to me. independent of that, yes it's an important step in this investigation. it does show that this whole business about and how we magically declassified everything is -- he knows there's a difference

between what's classified and what isn't classified. it does do that. let's not forget that already we have on this fire of the trump pre-preparation for indictment, we have him lying to his lawyers, we have him misdirecting or a bio mission or straight-up were to look for documents. we have the notes of that lawyer that are in evidence. we have the boxes being moved, and things shifted around after the subpoena and right before the department of justice got or. we have missing tapes, we are contradictory statements from him on what exactly happened and what he took. we have contradictory explanations. there are lots of logs on this fire, not just this latest one, and it all leads to a big, huge smoldering, burning, whipping up bonfire that's time for indictment. >> steve, i was talking to joe

walsh -- certainly will interest on the right side of the republican party. he makes the point that since you just made, that this is not a game against donald trump. what cynthia just said is not resonating with trump supporters. they think it's all a game against donald trump, he's running double the number one desantis has, and rather sanders is running at five times the numbers has next closest competitor have. what is the effect of all this increasing legal pressure on donald trump? the guy is not arrested and in jail before the next election, this only seems to strengthen him. >> i think, unfortunately right. looking back over the next several months, it wasn't that long ago when he saw -- that were the sons was either right on trump's -- or surpassing him. what's changed? well, trump was indicted. that's what changed. and after that indictment, what we saw was a sudden shift -- early additional support, and

he had congressional republicans rally behind him, saying oh no, we can't prosecute a former president just because he appears to be a felon. in terms of the impact, the more trouble that donald trump gets into, in terms of his legal liabilities, the more support he has in the polls. i look back, i think it was about a century ago where eugene debs ran for president from behind bars. right now that's an obscure, trivial detail. i'm wondering, -- next year. >> cynthia, let's talk about what's going on in georgia, because we're all waiting to see what happens. there's a lot of non legal people who say, it seems like a fairly obvious case because we've all heard this recording where he told the secretary of state to find votes. but this prosecutor in georgia, seems to want to leave no eye undaunted and t uncrossed. sounds like she's looking into a fact pattern that trump and his people might have been using in other states. tell me what you know about this. other states. >> he's definitely talking to

the people from zapata go software and berkeley research group. those are two groups that the trump people hired to look into whether or not there was fraud in the election. they both told him after he gave them hundreds of thousands of dollars each, that no, there was not fraud in the election. she wants that information in order to prove his intent. that makes sense to me. to the extent that she, there is this reporting that oh she's going to maybe indict based on what happened in arizona and what happened in wisconsin, or pennsylvania. i have to say, i'm a little nervous about that. i think she needs to keep it tight. she's already got a lot on her plate, issues going to do a -- case. she has a ruppersberger phone call, she has giuliani lying to the legislature, she has this kanye west person threatening the election worker, kidnapping and trying to get a false confession. she has the coffee county, the coffee county software steel.

cheese got meadows going down, she has calls from all kinds of people pressuring within the election system. that is enough, that's hard enough for a jury to wrap around and keep it tight. you know, the four person as a graduate said there might be as many as 12 people indicted. that means 24 were lawyers in the courtroom, plus two or three lawyers shull have. you can't even get a bathroom break organize in an hour when you have 30 lawyers in the courtroom. so, to the extent that you're going to add more defendants and more crime and -- it's just too much. in my opinion, that's what i would do. i would keep it tight, and i would leave the big over archery experience -- to jack smith. >> let's talk about some of the people running against donald trump. in an imaginary world with the numbers aren't what they are in somebody comes in from behind, you have nikki haley, unfortunately not been able to call her vote ali for herself even though she was a governor of state and the u.s.

ambassador. you have tim scott, senator of south carolina, unfortunately hasn't really carved out a lane for himself in the last few years. you have chris christie who's jumping in, he's the one with the closest to a lane who could attract conservative voters. i don't know the numbers say about chris christie or why he can win the, he didn't do all that well in 2016. what are your thoughts on christy getting into the race? >> i think kristi has a lane, and so far as he realizes that he wants to be the anti trump. he wants to beat trump's chief critic and he believes he has skills when it comes to taking down other candidates. if anyone has any doubts about that, hours -- the problem i have was christy 's i think his strains is debated. i think he excels when he is on a stage, in front of a podium, and he's debating. i'm not convinced these are, they're a, going to make the stage, and b, whether that debate will either happen, because trump might choose not to purchase a page. i feel like christy has some skills that he can bring to the stage, but at the same time, i don't know if they'll act should be on that stage.

>> that's a great crystallization of what it is, when you're running a 15% you don't actually need to have debates with anybody else and that is where christie shines. what a great conversation will save you, thank you so much -- for a federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst. see -- and an msnbc political trump dribble here, and the author of the book, the impostors, how republicans quick governing and seize american politics. we're continuing to follow breaking news from overseas, at least 280 people are dead. more than 800 are injured after a train derailment in eastern india. it's being billed as the country's worst train collision in decades. officials say tens of all train cars the rails -- nearby track. the first train, then collided with another passenger train coming from the opposite direction. prime minister narendra -- arrives on the scene this morning, surveyed the wreckage, and met with some of the hundreds of people being treated in local hospitals. this is the developing story, stick with msnbc throughout the day for the latest updates. still to come on velshi, is there are new developments into

at the high-profile investigations as we were just discussing, into the former president. plus, we'll head to ukraine, where russia is continuing its relentless aerial assault on the capital city of kyiv. we've got today's meeting at the velshi banned book club coming up as well, featuring return of the taliban by professor hassan abbas. the book chronicles how the taliban regained control of ask anderson, even before the book debuted, abbas face real threats on his life from taliban leaders. taliban leaders. have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome... shortness of breath... and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm. i'm your overly competitive brother.

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ukraine where russia continues its relentless aerial assault on the capital of kyiv. every day this week -- iranian mean -- on the city. while essentially all of them were shot down by ukrainian air defense systems, which include u.s. made patriot defense systems. doesn't mean danger is no

longer present, this video shows the moment a shot down missile landed on a car, driving on the -- roadway. -- several people on the ground it died, including several children. dozens more wounded from falling debris. joining us now a -- good friend nbc -- molly hunter. molly, even in the capital, you've been in kharkiv, what's the latest across the country? >> yeah, i do just want to focus on the capitol because kyiv has felt extremely different, and you can see it, you can see in the way people walk on the streets, you can see it in the way people react to those areas sirens. you mentioned a couple of kids who were killed, and you mentioned that danger. i think when we talk about ukrainian air being successful with their air defenses, of course are arsenal includes but when we talk about this -- the huge to -- don't forget. you think that actually that means the capital is safe.

huge chunks of missiles, of drone fragments come down causing -- we went to some of those sites earlier this week, and one of them, ali, really shocked -- nine-year-old goal was killed, and that was one of the pictures that you played in your intro. pieces of this missile fragments, not only hit an apartment building, but then landed right outside of the health clinic. it's interesting because that health clinic, ali, had a shelter underneath, but the residents around in the apartment complex told us that it was the most reliable shelter in the area. every night, when the air raid siren went off, that is where they went. ali, the other night was thursday night. that shelter was locked, and so the husband of -- three people died there. explain this horrific scene, with people banging on the door of the shelter, trying to get in. he went to get help, and at that moment, there was a huge bang a, huge chunk of missile -- his wife killed another mother and her nine-year-old daughter. well that sparked a huge controversy and a huge conversation in the capital of kyiv -- are the shelters all up and running. we got some new numbers from

the police today. they say it 1400 shelters have now been checked across the country, ali. get this, and these numbers shock me. 252 were closed, and not open, and 893 were unsuitable. we're 16 months into this war, and more than 1000 shelters across the country at a time, when people in this country need to go to shelters, are not open, four people have now been detained us in the capital -- investigation underway, and also there's this app that we all have called keep digital that you come up out the open soldiers, well as of this week, there is now function on that app where you can report closed shelters. the other big story, of course, that we are continuing to talk about, ali, and even more prevalent here in the east of the country where i am is that counter offensive. president zelenskyy gave an interview to the wall street journal and he said very publicly and very clearly, he says i believe that today we are ready to do this, to conduct a counter offensive. he adds that we would like to ask some things, but we can't wait for months.

we believe in success. i don't know how much time we really need, and that he continued, eiley, to say the lack of protection from enemy aircraft means that many soldiers will die. two weeks ago, when i sat down with makayla -- to zelenskyy, he asked them what they wait for the counter offensive until those exceptions came in, and he said no, the ukrainians get to -- until zones jets were delivered to ukraine. ali. >> wow, that story about the shelters, it's devastating. there's a lot of time that went by, people in kyiv were worried about, it's thinking about, it and i imagine that didn't come into people's minds and all of a sudden imagine having a go to a shelter as a debris is falling, even though it's an interception of an incoming missile for a drone. molly, stay safe as always, my friend, thank you for joining us, molly hunter in ukraine. still ahead, we are on top brand-new developments in two separate investigations that are zeroing in on donald trump. that's next. that's next.

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developments into two high-profile investigations into donald trump. according to new reporting from the washington post, the fulton county georgia investigation alleged election interference in 2020 by the former president and his allies has now extend its reach beyond state lines. the district attorney began the probe more than two years ago, and throughout the investigation, willis has indicated that she may be pursuing georgia's racketeering influenced and corrupt our organization statute. that is rico charges against donald trump. the post reports that in recent days, willis hotshot -- sought information relate to the trump campaign hiring two firms to find a voter fraud across the united states and then burying their findings when they did not find it. allegations that reach beyond george's borders, so the two individuals, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk candidly about the investigation. at least one of the firms has

been subpoenaed by fulton county investigators. willis's office has asked both firms for information not only about georgia, but about other states as well. from contesting the 2020 election results in georgia, michigan, nevada, pennsylvania, and wisconsin, end quote. yesterday, another development emerge in the completely different mastication into donald trump. they were tarps -- reports that donald trump's lawyers have been unable to locate the sensitive military document that trump was her discussing during a july 2021 meeting as golf club in bedminster, new jersey. the times reports, quote, shortly after learning that former president donald j trump had been recorded discussing what appeared to be classified material, describing military options for confronting iran, federal prosecutors issued a subpoena to his lawyers seeking the return of all records that resembled the document he mentioned. to people familiar with the matter said on friday. but mr. trump's legal team has informed the justice department that was unable to find any such records in his possession,

the people said. it's unclear where the prosecutors have been able to track down the document themselves, leaving open the possibility that the material remains at large or that the famously blustery mr. trump incorrectly described it on the recording. joining me now is test bridge, at a former -- former special assistant to the president obama. she's also the co-editor in chief of jessica 30 at online farm -- firm dedicated to the analysis of security, democracy, in foreign policy. test, thank you for joining us. we have had some conversation about the legal exposure that donald trump faces in both of these things, but i'm uniquely interested in this document that donald trump seemed to be bragging that he had about military confrontation or attacked to do with iran, and dimensions that, i can't talk about it because it is classified, maybe i should've just declassified it, but there's a whole legal side to that. but the idea that the president of the united states or the former president united states is referring to a document about a military attack or something like that on another

country seems to elevate this to a whole another level of concern about what donald trump was doing or plan to do with these so called the classified documents that he took. >> absolutely. i'm glad that you're focusing on. that aside to the legal risks to the former president himself, as a whole host of national security risk that we should be focused on. there are the risk associated with the fact that this document that does exist if it is, what is being reported as a military plane regarding potential attack on iran. there are huge risks associated with that being in the world. at an unsecured location, who knows where it is now, has it been returned. either copies. who has seen its, who has had described to them? zooming out, information gets classified because it is released or its dissemination would be harmful to the national security of united states. so military capabilities in military planes are obviously very high in the rink order of

secrets that are guarded zealously by the government. even within the executive branch, most folks with security clearances don't need to see those kinds of documents. so if they are compromised, military plans, military capabilities -- knowing certain things about foreign countries and its capabilities, all those things could be compromised. it's that is a big deal. and these are the kind of things that more intelligence agencies would go to almost any late to get their hands on. and so you can imagine why the department of justice would be focusing on this if they are not sure that the document has been returned or if they're not sure that there might be copies or others might know about its contents. there is a whole other set of risks to the relating to what this might say about how close we might have come to war with iran, and i think it is important to focus on the fact that not only do we not know if this document was something seriously considered by the president in terms of a potential actual invasion of iran, that alone is a terrifying thought that would've been a disaster in every way you can think of from a national security, a human,

and an economic perspective. but it's also possible that this document was something very different. that it was a savvy general responding to requests from the white house, a president, or senior advisers for a military option to go to war with iran. and by giving a document like this, to the president, you are sexually saying look, if you are or your advisors really want to take this on, if you want to go to war with iran, this is the massive number of ground troops that's going to take. this is what it's going to look like in practice. this is what you will have to commit to, and this is what you would have to own. and so it's possible that, if this document exists in that is what is being described, that it was actually a tool being used to talk trump down from going to war. we don't know based on the information that we have. >> these are a remarkable range of options. none of which would justify donald trump having a conversation about someone else, and of course what seems to be a tacit admission that he knows -- may have a classified document,

that is not supposed to have. again, we've had a legal conversation. we can put that aside. this is the national security side of classification. there's a lot of people that we've had on our air or who said that america classifies to me documents or doesn't declassify things, that's fine, and then maybe a really good debate about that, but this is actually the kind of thing that is not supposed to be out in the public under any circumstances. >> absolutely. there is no legitimate region, no legitimate region a document like this should ever leave the white house primacy's. it should be at a secure location in which it is being stored. on the white house promises. it should not be described to people who don't have a security clearance. it should not be moved around. and you, know it doesn't matter why the former president thought he should have this kind of thing. whether it was to settle scores, to talk about with biographers. those things are all very alarming from a national security perspective, but it's important keep in mind that it doesn't matter what the intended purpose was, what was going through his head when he took it with him. in fact, he did. there is no legitimate reason

the document like this should ever leave the premises where it's allowed to be handled. >> i guess my concern, tess, we heard about this because somebody found a recording. we don't know what else is there. we have no idea. if this were the one document, fine, it would be serious enough and hopefully our intelligence community and our legal authorities in the pardon of justice can sort that out, but we have no idea. this came to the surface because we learned about, over porter learned about a recording. what else could there be like this. this is the stuff that worries me, that actually endanger the lives of americans and people all around the world. >> absolutely. the president, rather uniquely, who has access to everything, would have access, and i look to this earlier, but it's important to underscore not just to what we, know for example, that a foreign country's military capabilities, but how we know about it. there's been a recording that the department of justice is asking about maps. that could be incredibly sensitive information. not just about what's going on in the picture, but how we know what's going on in the picture. we could be compromising not

just intelligence platforms, but we could be compromising people in their lives. and that is the case that the former president took this with him potentially to settle a score, prove a point, what other policy issues that came across his desk does he feel that way about? does he want to settle a score about why he pulled out of the jcpoa? about north korea in those negotiations and why they sailed? you can think of any range of foreign policy, national security issues where he might have felt like he wants to vindicate his own point of view, and so he's going to use this information for his own ends. and what it shows is that he doesn't care about protecting the interests of united states. he cares about protecting his own image, his own ego perhaps, and he is willing to use this incredible powerful information for personal gain. it is a pandora's box. there could be a lot more that could be compromised or exposed. >> it changes how people think about the documents case, right? there's a lot of people who are like, really, is this what we're gonna go down to this road? he took some boxes from the

white house? it changes the way one thinks about the framing of that conversation. tess, thank you very much for your time. tess bridgeman as a former deputy legal adviser for the national security council and former special assistant to president obama. she is a co-editor in chief at just security. right off the, break we have today's meeting with the velshi banned book club. we will speak with an author who knows how important has to have access to books in the freedom to write. professor hassan abbas, the author of return to the taliban. before return to the taliban was even released in the united states, he faced very real threats on his life from the taliban. don't miss this conversation. nversation urn all day and all night. prilosec otc reduces excess acid for 24 hours, blocking heartburn before it starts. one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn.

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book club, we typically read books and talk about domestic threats to rioters in their work. we have from time to time it discussed international authors. the bans of their work and the threats against them. today's guest is also under attack, but not from the usual suspects to whom we grow accustomed. professor hassan abbas is a scholar whose research focuses on extremist movements. his latest book, the return of the taliban, afghanistan after the americans left chronicles that group's return to power after the fall of kabul in 2021. his work has attracted the attention of senior leaders among the taliban. they have called for doctor abbas's assassination. this all started when the main spokesman for afghanistan's taliban government tweeted a lengthy statement on may 1st, condemning the book and

accusing abbas of being intelligence officer, essentially a spy. the next day, two former taliban spokesperson's issued direct calls for abbas's assassination. when tweeting that taliban supporters should kill critics living abroad and suggesting that the taliban's intelligence agency should organize volunteers to target critics in america and europe. according to one tweet, the professor described as a pakistani born secular american. the call from murder was endorsed by another former spokesperson who tweeted the professors image in the photo of a hunters knife. in the two years since taking full control of afghanistan, the taliban have severely crackdown on women's rights. they've suppressed free speech, and they've abolished organized political activity. not a single country today recognizes the taliban as the country's legitimate rulers. sanctions have been placed on government members and most foreign funding has been suspended. despite this, and contrary to the prevailing view in washington, professor abbas writes that the west should

engage with the taliban, but there's a big asterisk. yards for engaging with the emerging so-called new taliban, which he describes as a cohort of younger pragmatists with a more modern world view. abbas's book zeroes in on these internal tensions focusing on the divide between the moderates and the hard-liners in power. we should engage the taliban, he argues, as a means of empowering the margaritas -- moderates of the more extreme elements of the group. as he puts, it their two hands directing the show, only with different scripts. he points to specific examples such as when the leader of the movement ordered women last year to wear a burqa and barred girls over six great from attending school. abbas notes that some of the more pragmatic taliban cabinet members voiced their discontent and private, and some even send their daughters to schools abroad. later that year, another round of dissent quietly erupted when women were banned for working for international organizations. abbas reads that dissent as evidence that slowly, quote, we

are beginning to see the shedding of the old taliban skin, and quote. and he pointed other examples such as the lifting of a ban against internet use. women in kabul wearing head scarves instead of a full burqa, and a 2021 proclamation banning the forced marriage of women. and while noting that it remains too early to tell whether the taliban can make a affective transition to governance, he says the critical factor here would be the world empowering the moderates. for the time being, that is a bridge too far for the u.s. state department, and for many other foreign governments, but a boss argues that diplomatic engagement with the taliban will at worst, quote, result in the inflation of their egos and at best will restore some semblance of life to a nation and the people who have long deserve peace and prosperity, and quote. and therein lies the threat to the taliban. the book exposes the group's internal rivalries among other things leading to the aforementioned threats to his life. violent threats like these in that authors and their ideas have historically been the

purview of fascist governments or religious extremists. the aim is to silence ideas that are different or threatening. after the break, professor hassan abbas himself joins me to talk about why the taliban are so threatened by his new work. that usually causes mild symptoms, but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations, in adults 60 and older - and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com.

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hassan abbas. he is the author of return of the taliban, afghanistan after the americans left, we just came out in april. doctor abbas is a distinguished professor of international relations at the national defense university. he's also a senior -- senior adviser at harvard center for international affairs. professor, good to see you. thank you for joining us. try to give this as good of a set up as we could. it's a complicated story that you have done here, but i guess the question that my viewers are most interested in is, why are these taliban officials so threatened by this new book where they're urging sports to kill you? people even spilling about the taliban for decades. >> thank you very much.

on to be with you, ali. i think they're really concerned or scared because i have exposed the real image they want to portray themselves as the real islamic warriors who really know what islamic korea's. but like so many of, them in many cases, how greedy they are and how much i believe to be the true principles and values, and how far they are from those, and how their internal divisions are so entrenched that it is all about power grab, and it is all about what is a play. i think that hits them. but also, because i explore the links with intelligence. and what they portrays that they succeeded, it was their succeed alone, and they don't

to share this with anyone. and the chance that they are being manipulated at times also by the intelligence or the military, that also was a severe hit to whatever image they want. i think these two things we're at the core of it. >> i think as you, a professor of south asian studies writing this book about the taliban, a news event essentially, were you surprised that the impulses to both curtail and limit your book and then to threaten you, we are surprised at how much they have in common with some of the impulses that we've been talking about every week here in america with people who feel their position or power or narrative is threatened want the literature about. >> indeed. i was surprised, pleasantly surprised in a way, that -- 750,000 followers. this was a great marketing thing for my book also. i mean it reach so many places where it could not have reached otherwise. and that sense, that was a

pleasant surprise. but i was also, this further convince me that the taliban, at the end of the day, they are just focused more on the social media marketing. this is what hits them the most. and even -- what i did from their perspective, they said, i'm taking away a big critic from their victory. so they want to be seen as very powerful, and that is the image that they built for younger people. also, some of them were top leaders. i expose, for instance, in one case, the former head who made about two dozen trips to the golf. he was into archives of things that many others are, but no one was expecting. -- for business, but no one perhaps knew that he was into alcohol.

he was into womanizing, russian prostitutes, et cetera, and that i think hit the images well. in a way that really startled them. and then -- that is what was i think explained to me that they are more into building and building an image of them and trusted about the real islamic values, principles, equality, freedom, rights, women's rights, et cetera. every major principle that they espouse or that they reject on the ground, some of the hard-liners and extremists stand exactly for the opposite. hard-liner>> so let's talk abour recommendation about engaging with some of the more moderate taliban. you are not alone with. this is the economists published an editorial about trying to engage in parentheses very carefully with the taliban. the magazine knows that isolating the -- is not working. the west needs a more

constructive approach. you are someone who's been following the taliban for a very long time. your position is still in the minority. western governments do not feel that engaging in moderate taliban is going to be significantly better than engaging with hard-line taliban. why are you confident that the moderates could ultimately win if we engage? >> there are two things in my pitch for engagement. one is that we actually tried everything. those who are saying we should not engage, they are perhaps forgetting history. they've been here for 20 years. we spent a trillion dollars, more than that. we've tried nation building, which is a flawed way to project something. no one can build a nation. there are state building, we tried, and they made major mistakes, and we were learning in the process. but at the end of the day, the taliban are back because the u.s. and other allies negotiated at the taliban. and this was a negotiated deal

for peace. that is what enables the taliban to be back there. now, because we started this reengagement already to those negotiations, this has to be taken to a logical conclusion. that is my main argument. secondly, negotiations will most certainly, for many negotiations of engagement, for that i mean not necessarily recognition, but this engagement i am convinced will enable some of the pragmatic elements and some of these moderates and, using the word moderate very carefully, because we know how this word is thrown at many of us in different settings. i am convinced that double was not -- we know the kabul was not burnt down. if they had burned down, i would've said that they want nothing to do with any western institution. they are trying to adopt, they're trying to adapt, and they are trying to build on some of the institutions which are there.

in a very good fashion, but those are the people -- among them. we say that they are not intrusive, but i know of two shia muslims who are part of this. yes, they are in the minority, but they have been attempting. and another example i often give to people. unlike the taliban when they were in power, they were known for the massacre of the shia -- but this time around they aligned with some of the positions of the shia muslims and they were engaging with the sudanese today, the most important soufi shrine in kabul is being safeguarded by these smart, gun holding taliban. and so taliban are wearing uniforms. that in itself is a big change. there are these graduation parades. so taliban are, some of them in kabul, are mobilizing. and those are beginning, i have

the book of the chief justice of taliban today, hakeem, absolutely a book of bigotry and extremism and things that i cannot even say with such terrible things are being protected as islamic principles. those are a different role. i'm saying that we need to be more proactive and give some space to some of the taliban who want to engage with others, because everything else was already tried. what are we going to lose? that is my main pitch. >> professor, thank you for joining us. we hope you stay safe. you don't seem to be deterred at all by the threats against you or your life. you seem to be very engaged in this continuing important conversation, both for afghanistan and for us in america, because of the amount of investment that we have put into that country. professor hassan abbas is the author of today's velshi banned book club, the return of the taliban, afghanistan after the americans left. that does it for me, because we are here from tom washington

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