marshmallow. >> i was like, is that marshmallow? is that meringue? >> you don't. eight >> us. yeah >> we are on suquamish lands, for going to have members of the tribal council come to read us. >> on behalf of the suquamish tribe, we like to wrap you in these blankets. it's four love, power, affection. tonight on the monday hasan show, the grand jury investigating donald trump's mishandling of classified documents will be again this week, are we close to seeing

criminal charges in this case? plus, a republican limits on tape he tried to interfere with elections and texas. ken paxton, yes, the same can paxton who just got impeached is now under renewed scrutiny for that admission. and the latest on breaking news out of virginia. fighter jets from -- kadri's ignace on it boom that reverberated across the area. welcome to the show. nbc news is reporting the federal grand jury that has been hearing evidence in the department of justice's investigation into former president donald trump's handling of classified documents is, wait for it, expected to meet again this coming week in washington, d. c.. now we don't know yet if an indictment is coming, which would be major. the first ever federal indictment of a former president, he would be indicted in new york over the hush money case, but not federally. but what we do know is prosecutors were speaking for jack smith have been presenting

the grand jury with evidence and witness testimony for months, but activity appears have slowed in recent weeks based on observations at the courthouse and sources. now, when it comes to trump and specifically the case of the classified documents, three things are very clear to me this sunday night. first, and above all else, if it was anybody else this would be open and shut case. to quote harry lippman, a former u.s. deter me an ex -- riding in the l. a. times last month. the documents case is at its

core straightforward. the former president allegedly took government documents from the white house, which is one sort of crime, and were flagrantly failed to comply with a subpoena for those documents, lied about them, and otherwise impeded federal authorities which is another. smith has long since assembled a formidable case that trump did so despite misconduct was against the law. jack smith, the special counsel, and had already come to knowing his conduct was against the law, in a moment. let's be clear, if you know or former governor employers who were accused of doing even 10% of what trump is accused of doing in the documents case, we would've been indicted and prosecuted long ago. it would've been an 02 year wait, no prevaricating from merrick garland in the justice department, no appointment of a special counsel. if you or i had taken home three under document covers of classification markings, including some marked top secret. if you or i had then denied having those documents, and dragged out cooperating with norah and the doj overturning those documents. if you or i were accused of moving boxes of those documents after seeing a subpoena, if you or i was giving public speech saying those documents were hours to keep, and also demanded they be returned to us. if you or i had accused the fbi of planting documents at our house. if you or i had a lawyer who had put in writing that all the documents had been given back when they haven't. if you or i had a lawyer who had been waved off from searching our personal office where documents were found. if you or i had claimed an empty folder with a confined marking found in our bedroom was being used to cover up a blue light from the bedside landline telephone those keeping us up at night, we would have been indicted and prosecuted long ago. hence, beyond no illusion he on that.

trump's core legal defense fell apart this week, because his core legal defense until this week had been that he did nothing wrong, because he was president and he declassified all those documents before he left office. at noon on january 20th, 2021. even though he has offered no evidence that they were all declassified, even though he makes nonsensical claims like this. >> if you are the president of the united states you can declassified just by saying it's declassified, even by thinking about it.

>> yes, he declassified them with his mind. just by thinking. totally normal, non deranged thing to say. and yet this week, even that defense fell apart when cnn first reported the existence of an audio recording of july 2021 meeting at trump's bedminster golf club in new jersey in which the former president, discussed a pentagon planning document he had taken from his time in the white house. as nbc news has since confirmed, the planning document trump kept was related to iran and the former president acknowledged on the tape that it was classified. in fact, cnn reports that on the recording trump's comments suggest he would like to share the information, but he is aware of limitations of his ability post presidency to declassify records, two of the sources said. so, to be clear, trump himself in private refer to a document in his possession as classified, not be classified, whether he did it with his mind, and he acknowledged that he did not have the power as a former president to share or declassify that document, with or with his pen or with his mind. so he's in, i don't know you've heard this before, serious legal trouble. this special counsel does not seem to be playing around, and later this week we could see what a grand jury thinks about

all of this, maybe. one final point though, my third point tonight about this story. trump knows he's in trouble, and when he is in trouble, his go move's racism. being racist. have a listen to what he said on fox this past week, when even host sean hannity raise the issue of classified documents. >> he had seven or eight boxes in chinatown, in washington d. c., where nobody even speaks english and chinatown. china town is very, it's china. >> nobody speaks english in chinatown. disgusting stuff, also totally false about joe biden. i for 1 am fed up with his normalizing, or even just accepting both donald trump's alleged criminality, and his brazen racism. joining me now, david harrison, civil rights attorney former prosecutor, and a cnbc contributor. and barbara mcquade, msnbc legal analyst for the u.s. attorney in michigan, and a law professor at the university of michigan law school. thank you both for coming back on the show. barb, what do we make of the news that the grand jury in this special counsel's case is reconvening this week after a lack of activity, shall we say, in recent weeks? should donald trump be worried?

>> yes, although it's impossible to know, mehdi, exactly whether meeting. it could be because of hearing another testimony, it could be because or hearing this recording, or some testimony about it. or it could be that they are there to indict. a session would be called to bring in the members of the grand jury if the prosecutors were going to present them with a proposed indictment. the grand jury is charged on the law, they get an opportunity to ask questions, to go through the document, and the prosecutors leave and then deliberate among themselves and vote on whether they want to return an indictment. so it could be that that time has been scheduled for them to come in and do that. >> david, donald trump calls you up and he says, hey david you're a top lawyer, how concerned should not be that is jack smith guy apparently has me on tape saying i have a classified document my position and i have a declassified it? is that bad for my defense david?

>> mehdi, that is an understatement. let's get back to something you ask me a long time, ago he asked me what's the best defense he could muster in regard to a number of legal claims that he's facing, and i told you back then, throw his lawyers out of the bus and say hey, you know what? i keep all these lawyers around me because i say kersey things, i do crazy things, so he's on constant safeguard to make sure i'm not actually doing something illegal. turns out you ask one of these lawyers that you people around canada you this? they told you no, and you did it anyway. and that is important for two reasons, it is important for you in terms of me giving advice as a lawyer, because it matters in a future court case when that tape is going to get played. this all classified documents issue was kind of setting up a paper tiger and tearing it down, but it still matters when you hold up a document in court with a label and has classified on. it and also matters in the court of public opinion, which we often dismiss, but it matters when we are talking about future presidents who get caught lying. so you just got found liable for defamation, and now one of your lawyers has you on tape saying i told you not to do it, and you did it anyway, that hurt you legally and more ways than one. >> yes, very much so. and barb, let's talk about trump's lawyers. let's say jack smith brings charges on the documents investigation in the next few

days, or the next few weeks. what might those charges be, do you think, and how long would it take for trump's lawyers to say, well, you know what? we want to slow this down. we want to have this dismissed, we want an appeal. how long would it take for to get to court is what i'm asking? >> yeah, so i think there's three possible charges here. one is that an offense for mishandling classified documents that requires of the documents actually be classified. the second one is the espionage act, which is not even required the documents be classified, because the statute came about in world war i in a time before we had the classification system. that requires instead that the documents relate to the national defense. so if there really was this document about an attack on iran, that would certainly

qualify in that category. and then third, it is obstruction of justice. if, for all the reasons you just said, he was moving boxes around, he gave over one envelope of material when he was still concealing 26 boxes in his basement, and said that was all there was. he said don't bother looking in the office. all of that could amount to obstruction of justice. and so, those are the three possible crimes. now your second question about delay, i think there will be delay, i think that it is fairly common in a case like this for lawyers to say, we need to see the discovery, there's classified material, the government may want to enter protective orders to make sure this does not get out into the public domain. and so, i can imagine this case being delayed a year or so before it comes to trial. now, audio means right in the middle of the 2024 election and i think the government's goal will be to avoid putting it off until after the election. >> that is fascinating, because of course trump or claim it's all part of a witch against him, if he's a gop presidential candidate, it'll be interesting

to see if he's not even the candidate and that argument carries much water. david, is it fair to say, as i did a moment ago, that if it was your eye who had left the government with hundreds of these documents in our possession, and repeatedly refused to give them back, repeatedly denied we had them, we will be imprisoned by now. there is a two tier system of justice in this country, is not one for the rich and powerful and one for the rest of us? >> unquestionably. and that's part of what we've all been discussing about this case from the very beginning, and i think that with that regard, we all bear some responsibility in terms of the way these charges are shaping up. and here is a simple truth when your prosecutor assessing charges, there is a difference between the charge you think a

jury might convict on, the charge he want to bring, and the charge that you are ethically bound to bring. this most recent string of antics is not the straw that breaks the camels back, i don't know what would be, because are you back prosecutors into the corner, and the ground jury whether ethically bound to take action because you have flaunted being dishonest, and disregarding the rules and such a wide context to say that there is a separate tier of justice in a system we've got 11 year olds being shot in the chest after complying with police officers orders, it's an overwhelming understate, many, i don't think you and i would make it out of the building with the box. we certainly would not be ignored, so this then on tv and lying about it after being found liable for making false statements in other contexts. >> very good point, and i should remind you that plenty of people, including on donald trump's watch, have been prosecuted for doing much less with documents in their possession. david henderson, barbara mcquade, thank you both for analysis, i appreciate it. >> thanks mary. >> next, just how bad of the texas republican need to be in order to be impeached by his own party? you gotta hear the story. before advil. new advil dual action back pain. fights back pain two ways

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all right, let's get this over with. save hundreds a year over t-mobile, at&t and verizon with the best price for two lines of unlimited. i should get paid more for this. you get paid when you win. >> we need to talk about from xfinity. home of the 10g network. disgraced texas attorney

general ken paxton. yes, we all know him as the man who tried to contest the 2020 election results by ridiculously suing four swing states where trump had lost. pelosi was so crazy that the conservative majority supreme court declined to hear it. paxton, a die hard trump ally, later went on steve bannon's podcast and said the quiet part out loud, claiming that trump would have lost texas had he, paxton, not blocked over 2 million mail-in ballot applications from being sent out before the election. >> harris county mail-in ballots that they want to do senate were 2. 5 million, those were all illegal, and we were able to stop every one of them. had we not done that, we would have been in the very same situation -- we at election night -- i was watching election night and i knew when i saw what was happening in these other states that would've been texas, we would've been the same boat, we would've been one of those battleground states that they

were counting votes in harris county for three days, and donald trump would've lost the election. >> you heard it there. paxton, proud of his election interference on behalf of trump. but this is also a man who has been accused of crimes for years. in fact, he was indicted in 2015, almost ten years ago, on felony security fraud charges. he is fighting them to this day. there is more. in 2020, paxton's own staff as accused of using his office to investigate a poor kid a political donor enemy, in return that donor gave a job to paxton's mistress, the doj still investigating. pack some files employees when they came for those claims, and then had to settle when they sued for on the job retaliation to the tune of three. point $3 million paxton wanted to use taxpayer dollars to fund the payment, and that is what led him to his impeachment, a rare bipartisan move, the republican controlled texas house impeached paxson on allegations of bribery, retaliation, and obstruction of justice. by the way, this could be awkward for paxton's wife who is a state senator, and needs to serve as one of the jurors in the impeachment trial that is coming. so, let's talk about this story and more, let's bring in my panel julián castro, nbc political and analyst, former san antonio mayor, former housing secretary, and daily beast columnist, go back to where you came from.

thank you both for coming back on the show. julio, how on president it is this impeachment in a polarized state like texas? how bad you have to be when both parties when you out? >> yeah, that's exactly the right question. this is texas politics that we're talking about we're just about anything goes under republican rule, it's a state where they have no campaign finance laws, they push to make a prosecution of campaign finance and other political crimes, so to speak. the prosecution of that, very weak in this state. it is a state that gave us tommy allay, and a whole host of other characters over the years. this is really an indication of think of two things, just how bad, just how ceedee can paxton has been, as you mentioned the indictments that we saw and all of these 20 counts that were a lot in the articles of impeachment, to bribery, obstruction of justice, and other alleged crimes. and then secondly, it really does seem here that he got crossed wires with somebody. it seems that the other

republican politicians in the state house are extra motivated to get rid of this guy. and we are reminded of that again just a couple of days of go when the texas house, was making the impeachment argument in a senate trial that's about to come, hired two of the most legendary texas criminal trial lawyers, dick deguerin and rusty harden, to prosecute the case against ken paxton. so you know they are serious, you know they want to get rid of him, it's not unprecedented, but relatively rare in this wild wild west state of texas. >> and waj, we played that paxton trump when he admitted on bannon's podcast to

basically blocking democratic votes to help trump win the state of texas. where are all those republicans who complain about election interference from big tech, and from democrats, they're not bothered by the start of the? it's one of their own gas just saying, you know what? i helped trump win texas. >> by every production, every elevation is a conviction by republicans, right? they call us groomers, and you find out another maga supporter is into child pornography, here they are rejecting that the rest of us who are part of this, what they call it antisemitic, deep state run by george soros. which by the way is a conspiracy that came from white nationalists, and the kkk. it's an antisemitic conspiracy that is now the mainstream. they are accusing all of us, right, a bringing in against conservatives. yet, now they're openly saying the plot a lot, like i said on your show before the floor. it really convenient bonville you, before the musical interlude, they are openly saying. it i think people need to know one other big stories. harris county, it leads democrats. the biggest county in texas, and he is openly telling you that, if i had not taken of those mail-in ballots it could've gone to trump. and now what they are doing to

ensure that democrats have no chance is that they have actually taken away the authority given to the secretary of state, who is republican. so they are completely disenfranchising voters, openly in texas, and any republican control state telling you in advance, maybe, for 2024 that we will win by any means necessary, even if it's election fraud. and by the way, we have the audacity to claim that you are doing it, even though with us that's doing it we're on to projection. that is what's happening openly

right now. >> and julián, as waj points out, this is about 2024. this is a national story, this is a reason why paxson's had trump support for so long. there's a reason, now, that trump has been complaining about paxton, because trump wants an agent in the state like texas that it can do the kind of things he'd in 2020, and fingers crossed for republicans it might work in 2024. >> yeah, it is amazing. as waj says, for him to basically say, hey if we can actually encourage, and let people vote. republicans would have lost the state of texas. and if it is a state of texas, there goes in a presidential election, 40 electoral votes there goes the governorship of texas and of years. and in this position, really interesting because there is going to be, at some point, an election where all of this baggage, i think, is going to hurt republicans in an a. g. race. we are going to see, i think, the further slippage away for republicans of the state of

texas. they have become so entitled and so extreme in this state, and so used to the kind of conduct that can paxton, he has not been alone. the kind of conduct he has been engaged in that more and more people and the state are recognizing that we need to go in a different direction. >> yes indeed. and wajahat, last question to you in this segment. you mentioned projection and the right. the right like to complain about cancel culture and thin skin snowflakes, and yet you've written a piece for the daily beast today about how you are invited by a tech companies diversity equity inclusion team to talk about aapi month, and you are cut off in a zoom meeting five minutes after you started, and he started talking about transgender kids being bullied, black people being shot by the police, asian american still being blamed for covid.

and yet, they literally canceled you. i wonder wajahat, have you heard from republicans and conservative speaking on your defense? >> no, not yet. i'm still waiting for it, and i'm still waiting for the tech company. and apparently i didn't mention the word gop, maga, i just mentioned literal neutral facts that are happening. then i asked a question, how do you get to reconciliation without truth? you can't, you don't, you want. and right then, the zoom cut off, and i should've made a mediocre mega white man, and complain and huffed and puffed and gone on fox news and then maybe they would've boycotted them. but so far, nobody has come to my defense for my first amendment rights and freedom of speech. i wonder why, mehdi? i wonder why? >> i wonder why. it's not cancel culture they have a problem, is it? they just want to be the ones in the cancelling. julian and wajahat please stick, around which a lot more to discuss. a fighter jets caused a sonic boom in the d. c. area after scrambling to interest at the cessna jet that flew over d. c., more on that breaking story in a moment. plus, don't forget you can listen to the mehdi hasan show anytime free wherever you get your podcasts. >> ltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ permission to dig in? granted. breyers carbsmart is so rich, so creamy, it tastes totally off-limits. but with only 4 grams of net carbs in every delicious serving, you've got the green light. better starts with breyers. [♪♪]

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blocking those families, those migrant families getting justice. but first, richard louis is here with the headlines, hello richard. >> mary, very good evening to you. falling to breaking, is warning of an update this hour. the white house saying brian's being briefed after a sonic boom and rattle the d. c. area. this is called me a norad f-16 jets scrambling after a small plane that entered capital airspace. senior u.s. official tells nbc news that 113th weighing of the capital guardians, that is a unit of the d. c. national guard, flew out to a base andrews because the flight path of the aircraft was quote, unusual. that officials said that's when the fighters caught up to the aircraft and turn the pilot was incapacitated. the plane has believed to have run out of fuel before it crashed into mountainous terrain and southwest virginia. the faa says that plane departed from elizabeth town, tennessee, and was bound for new york's long island mcarthur airport. the national transportation safety board investigating the incident, authorities of not

say that the cause of the crash, or the number of casualties there. more later on this. for now, more of the many hassan show after a short break. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ want a worry-free way to kill bugs? zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess.

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because a clearchoice day changes every day. schedule a free consultation. >> parents were -- their kids were ripped from their arms and separated. and now they cannot find over 500 of those parents, and those kids are alone. nowhere to go, nowhere to go. it is criminal, it is criminal. >> as a candidate for president, joe by dint loudly and passionately criticize the trump administration's family separation policy. at the time, he even called criminal. but now biden's own justice department is defending the policy in court. five mothers who crossed the border to seek asylum in the u. s. say their children were traumatized by it, and they are currently suing the federal government for damages. according to recent court filings, attorneys from the doj say that women don't have legal standing to sue, and argue that families were separated out of,

get this, quote, perceived humanitarian consideration. wow, they also argue that the u.s. government has discretion when it decides how to regulate immigration. remember, under the policy 5600 children were separated from their parents in 2017, and 2018. a dhs task force has reunited around 700 families, but there are still hundreds, hundreds that remain separated even now. julián castro and wajahat ali are back with me. julian, you've been critical of biden's -- he's now defending child separation in court. a policy that's being described as doctors and lawyers as charles abuse, and even torture. >> yes mehdi, we have to start with acknowledging that when it comes to immigration and so many other issues, joe biden is not donald trump. i have said for a long time that donald trump had bad intent, he was malicious, he had a dark heart when it came to immigrants. i don't believe that of joe biden. but there is no question that on immigration that joe biden has failed to deliver on his campaign promises, and that clip that you played where he called family separation criminal, you compare that to what the department of justice is doing, basically back handing these litigants. they have refused to settle,

with these plaintiffs, they are even arguing that somehow family separation was done out of perceived humanitarian considerations. that is laughable. it really is sad. you know, joe biden won the presidency by arguing that this moment was about a battle for the soul of our country. if the department of justice is going to do that kind of the thing against mothers who had their children separated from them then we will lose that battle for the soul of the nation. >> well said. wajahat do you think anyone from the trump administration will ever be held accountable for the family separation policy? and will that lack of accountability with democrats

in office now and bolder gop in a featuring the policy back? trump is or is that he will bring it back, he said at a recent cnn town hall. >> donald trump, stephen miller, and steve bannon are crushing it. they have podcasts, they are doing a great job. why would anyone be held accountable, and why should anyone fear repercussions? i mean listen, caring for children will be a partisan issue, especially children who were forcibly separated from their parents. some of them who were kidnapped, maybe, right? who have suffered enduring trauma. and the fact that the justice department has the audacity to say, oh well we did it out of partial humanitarian concerns. i want to remind people that do to the trump administration and jeff sessions, and the other individuals that are named, they want to deterrence, right? they wanted a zero tolerance

policy. to the point where people forget that donald trump mused about having a note filled with alligators and asked, you know, maybe border patrol could shoot migrants. because they couldn't come up for with a moat filled with alligators and shoot migrants, they came up with a zero tolerance policy of separating and kidnapping these children. and so it is one of those situations were historically black and brown families and communities have always suffered, so democrats and republicans can always prove that they are tough on crime and care about security. it is an opportunity here for the biden ministration to do the right thing, stand by what he said, and show how is differing the trump administration. i hope these mothers, the mothers of these kids when. i hope they win a lot of money. >> democrats are always in a defensive posture when it comes to border issues, there is also the issue of the surge, or lack thereof at the border before title 42 expired. here's what president biden predicted before the end of title 42. have a listen. >> is the united states ready

for the surge of people that's going to come across the border coming this week? >> i have spent, close to an hour with the mexican president today. we are doing all we can. the answer is, it remains to be seen. it remains to be seen, it's going to be chaotic for a while. >> of course, the number of migrant crossings at the southern border has now it is slowing point since biden became president, about 3000 migrants have been stopped by border patrol offices each day, down for more than 10,000 a day last week, julio. the surge did not materialize. >> well it has not, mehdi. this is just one more example how when it comes to immigration, there is a bogeyman that is created. how many times, not just right before title 42 is lifted a month ago, but before that over the last couple of years did we hear there's going to be such a terrible surge. basically you have this idea that we're going to have flood of dangerous invaders coming across the border that did not materialize, but it is so -- it so epidemic as is the way that the right, especially demonize migrants and creates this catastrophic scenario that never comes to pass. >> yes indeed. julián castro wajahat ali, we're out of time off a leave it there. thank you both, appreciate you both. coming up next, that college graduation speech that has sparked so much unnecessary controversy and condemnation.

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a yemeni american law student picked by her fellow students for the -- in new york to give a contentious easier. and fought him ended at old back during that speech. >> as israel continues to indiscriminately rain bullets and bombs on worshippers, murdering the old, the young. attacking even funerals and graveyards as it encourages lynch mobs to target palestinian homes, and businesses as it imprisons its children, as it continues its project of settler colonialism, expelling palestinians from their homes, carrying the ongoing knock bach that our silence is no longer acceptable. >> for team also slammed the nypd as fascist in that speech, and said black and brown men are being killed by the state at rikers island prison. strong staff. and while the predicted blowback for commencement address did not come right away, the attacks on her did start rolling in. and not just from right-wing republicans. democratic congressman richie torres of new york attack fought in his remarks as anti-israel derangement syndrome at work.

new york mayor, yes the mayor, eric adams weighed into calling her speech words of negativity and divisiveness. that criticisms led to rupert murdoch new york post featuring fought to me on its front page, calling a stark raving grad. even the cooney school chancellor released a statement calling her remarks hate speech, even though what fatima said did not even close to any legal definition of hate speech. she attacked a foreign country, a foreign government, not a race or religion. now fought demand has since deleted all over social media accounts have basically gone into hiding. so much for free speech i guess? and despite acumen positions of antisemitism, fought him as the backing of her fellow jewish law students at cuny, who released a statement solidarity with her. turns out people who care about cancel culture dortmund canceling people to don't like, and the people who call out antisemitism don't always have the support of all jews. joining me now to discuss this is dove wax, and political pressure of political science at ucla. and -- acting at the clear product at cuny law school, fought email was one of her students. thank you for joining me, dove you are someone who researched -- you are an expert. let me ask you. do you believe 30 miles or marks at that graduation ceremony, what you just heard, or antisemitic? we're hate speech? >> no, i don't. i don't think they were

antisemitic. i think they were motivated by antisemitism, but at least it's not clear that they would go with any antisemitic intent. i don't think she invoked antisemitic tropes, as some have suggested. i mean, you could read certain references to investors as potentially invoking an antisemitic trope, i think that's a stretch. i think it is important to distinguish between hatred against israel, which i think she did express, and hatred against jewish people and not to conflate these two things. hating israel, well i don't agree with it, is not the same thing as hating jewish people. >> yes, not conflating is the key. a lot of people are doing a lot of conflating, including democratic politicians. now has, we're talking a lot about cancel culture on college campuses, but this is another reminder of one of the biggest form of cancel culture as against pro palestinian voices on campus. this is not the first time people have been shut down with accusations of antisemitism when they speak about israel, not about jews as he pointed out. this is not the first time that's happened, has it? it has happened at cuny in this way, with the count counselor wing into, bizarre. >> yes, i mean.

there are so many reasons why this, blew out of proportion, especially as you pointed out that it came a couple weeks after her speech. one thing i want to note, and i think mayor adams and knowledge did in his speech, it wasn't actually four of hate speech. we spoke second after the dean, and then he left. it is really, i would say, unfortunate and disappointing that the board of trustees decided that they were going to weigh in on her speech in this way, and as you pointed out calling her speech hate speech when it doesn't meet the legal definition of it in any manner of words. and it actually brought to mind someone on the faculty shared an example from 2011 or something very similar happens with toni kushner, and -- he had written and cuny wanted to give him an honorary degree and people on the board of trustees objecting to toni kushner's stance on israel and palestine. it is just unfortunate, as you pointed out, a continuation of this example that people who

speak out on this issue get -- >> and naz can i ask, i know you have taught her, and she's gone into hiding i am told. is she okay? i mean, this is a young woman of color in a head scarf put on the front page of a murdaugh tabloid and having the mayor of her city called her out. >> yes, that has obviously been top of mind for us, myself and others in the faculty at the law school, and we have been hoping to connect her with resources that help people who have been docked, and i am hoping to connect her with those. i tried not to bother her in the past few days, because i'm sure she's been inundated. she did have to leave, she had to explain to her parents what all of this is happening, what this means. and you know, have them look back on this that it was so celebratory for them in a different way.

>> yes. and dove, let me ask you about the debate that's going on right now and jewish communities, in israel, in the state department over the definition of antisemitism. the biden administration has laid out a new strategy for fighting antisemitism, but it is also a debate as to how you define. there is the ihra definition,

which refers and references examples of anti israel criticisms as part of that definition, and i know people, jewish communities have argued over that definition. i wonder where you stand on this? you mentioned earlier not to conflate the two. clearly you can say things about israel in an antisemitic way, if you think israel controls america, or controls -- i think that's an antisemitic trope, clearly. but if you say israel is engaged in settler colonialism, which is what fatty merced, is provocative, but is that antisemitism? what is going on with this definitional debate, you are the expert? >> i think it really is a debate on where you draw the line between legitimate criticism, and antisemitism. the, the definition many within the organists community here in the united states and around the world, we are pushing this definition because it allows for the equation of anxieties of antisemitism. essentially, they want to make the case that any expression of anti-zionism is inherently antisemitic. and i think many others, myself

included, push back against that. it is not because we think anti-zionism can never be antisemitic, it certainly can, whether it's motivated by antisemitism, or whether it invokes antisemitic tropes as you mentioned. and we see many, you know, contemporary examples of this. but to simply equate the two can lead to this kind of weaponization of antisemitism charges, particularly against palestinians, palestinian americans and others who support palestinian rights and engage in palestinian activism. so it is very important not to, you know, overgeneralize, and not to define it in a way that respects people's free speech, and is not simple lee label all criticism of israel expressions of anti-zionism, as antisemitic. >> very good points. naz quick last question to you, how disappointed are you seeing democrats lining up to dump on this young student? i suspected from certain right-wing supporters of israel, but a progressive congressman, self styled progressive like richie torres to come out and do, that doesn't disappoint you?

>> that's because i know richie torres as politics on palestine, historically he has not been, so far in the past few years. yes it is disappointing. it goes back to this general progressive except for palestine politics that a lot of people display, sadly. >> yes indeed, the progressive except palestine, is sadly common and a lot of liberal circles.

dov waxman and naz ahmad we will flip there, thank you both for coming on the show of leaving their appreciate. it coming up at the top of the hour with a majority, and democrat robert garcia the first openly gay immigrant in congress will discuss how he thinks the lgbtq community should respond to the conservative assault on gay rights, and joyce vance will be mentioning that donald trump can be prosecuted, and convicted for his mishandling of classified documents. we were discussing that earlier on the show. that's tonight on nine eastern. but before that, ayman will be joining me next after the break to talk about robotic ron desantis and his attempt to prove he's a real boy will on the campaign trail. get enough each day. good thing metamucil gummies are an easy way to get prebiotic, plant-based fiber. with the same amount of fiber as 2 cups of broccoli. metamucil gummies the easy way to get your daily fiber.

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we'll be right back here next sunday at eight eastern. even a kind of show an msnbc hub on peacock, with new episodes of the show on peacock during the week. now it's time to hand it over to learn from a man boy and he. in a month, before i go, have you seen governor ron desantis campaigning in iowa new sham show for the gop nomination? he is really trying to prove people that one day he can be a real boy, because let's be honest eamonn, he lacks charisma, to quote journalist benjamin dixon onto his charisma he has the cousin of aboard from star trek, there's this narrative around him that

he is a motionless, cold, a robot, which i think is unfair, because there is one particular emotion he has, watch. >> why not take any questions from voters, governor? >> governor, hakeem now taking questions from voters? >> what are you talking about, i'm out here are, you blind? >> i'm not blind, no. >> so people are coming up to, me talking to me whatever they want to talk about. >> are you blind? amen, he is so angry almost all the time, he gets very irritated very quickly, he is a real snowflake, which father makes them a really easy target for donald trump's abuse and attacks, does it not? >> oh no, it certainly does, it seems that ron desantis decides that having the charisma of a borg has the -- this is a guy who continues to position himself as the crusader against so-called woke -ism, a term that funnily enough donald trump says he doesn't like because people don't know how to define it. but let me show you how rhonda

scent is explains, watch. >> as president, i recognize that the woke mind virus represents a war on the truth, so we will wage a war on the woke. we will fight the woke and education, we will fight the woke in the corporations, we will fight the woke in the halls of congress. >> we will fight the woke on the beaches of normandy -- but listen, if that's sounds familiar it's because desantis, and it seems his crack speech writing team have lifted that impassioned speech from winston churchill's famous speech vowing to fight fascism and not seize. and look, aside from his lack of originality, can you imagine desantis thinking this is the good campaign strategy in the general election? i mean, there was a recent usa today ipsos poll from march showing that the overwhelming majority of americans actually view the word woke and what it means in a positive way, not a negative way. in a positive way. now imagine trying to win a general election by making your central campaign tenet fighting against something the majority of americans do not oppose or dislike, that that is how ron desantis chose to launch his campaign.

>> he did, and even, he was also trying to define wokeism, means that wokeism is cultural marxism. okay, much clear now. >> no idea what that even means. mehdi, great show as always my friend enjoy the rest of your evening off. >> thanks. >> coming up on ayman, new developments in the trump the classified documents case. joy vance will join me to discuss her believed that there is now enough evidence to convict the ex president. and, kevin mccarthy re-names on his promise to give journalists access to the january six surveillance tapes, handing them to discredited conspiracy serious instead. and third-party threat, growing fears that a so-called centrist group might just throw the 2024 elections to a radical republican candidate. i am ayman mohyeldin la, started ♪ ♪ ♪ tonight, we begin with developing news in the justice