also trying to define wokeism, means that wokeism is cultural marxism. okay, much clear now. >> no idea what that even means. mehdi, great show as always my friend enjoy the rest of your evening off. >> thanks. >> coming up on ayman, new developments in the trump the classified documents case. joy vance will join me to discuss her believed that there is now enough evidence to convict the ex president. and, kevin mccarthy re-names on his promise to give journalists access to the january six surveillance tapes, handing them to discredited conspiracy serious instead. and third-party threat, growing fears that a so-called centrist group might just throw the 2024 elections to a radical republican candidate. i am ayman mohyeldin la, started ♪ ♪ ♪ tonight, we begin with developing news in the justice

departments investigation into donald trump's handling of classified documents. nbc news is exclusively reporting that the grand jury convened evidence in the case, it's expected to meet this week after a hiatus. now, prosecutors working for special counsel jack smith have been presenting the grand jury with evidence and witness testimony. that slow down in recent weeks. it is unclear whether prosecutors are prepared to seek an indictment at this point. but, this reconvening might mean that a charging decision is close, so, let's take a step back for a moment. let's look at the totality of this case... tonight, we are going to do that with the help of a model prosecution memo that just been released by a team of former prosecutors. one of whom will join us live in just a moment. defense attorneys saying the justice department is likely justified to charge donald trump and crimes over his refusal to turn over the classified documents, that he is accused of illegally removing from the white house. the 186-page memo refers a full

picture of possible evidence and arguments that the doj might play in a case against the ex presidents. outlines potential charges the government could bring against trump, including concealing government records, obstruction of justice, and false statements to federal investigators. the preface to the memo, the authors write, quote, we conclude that trump should and likely will be charged. the lawyers continue their sufficient evidence to obtain and sustain a conviction here. if the information gleaned from filings and statements and reminisce public reporting is accurate. indeed, the doj is likely now or shortly will be internally circulating a prosecution memo of its own saying so. now, we should be clear here, the authors note that they at times rely on a news reports where as

the actual prosecution team or's memo would instead rely on direct evidence that the federal investigators have collected. quote, for that reason, we do not reach an unqualified charging decision. instead we, conclude that there is sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction here if the government filings and statements and voluminous public reporting we detail below our accurate, we also know that based on the reported vax charges would be strongly warranted based on department precedents and similar cases. so, charges would be strongly warranted. that memo was written before new reporting from the new york times came out that prosecutors have now in their possession audio recordings that describe the work trump and evan corcoran were doing during at nearly one month period of that documents investigation. quote, the level of detail in the recording is

said to have angered and an honor of close aides to trump who are worried it contains direct quotes from a sensitive conversations. joining me now is joyce vance. a legal analyst, one of the authors of the model prosecution memo, democratic state representative malcolm kenyatta of pennsylvania, brittany cunningham, an msnbc political analyst. it's great to have all three of you with us. joyce, talk us through your construction of this memo. what ultimately drove you and your colleagues to find that trump not only should be charged but could be convicted. >> what we hope to do by writing this model was to give the public some idea of the framework doj uses to take make charging decisions. under the federal prison first -- to have to answer the question, could you indict that means, do you have sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction. so, we considered two buckets of charges. we consider charges that are related to illegal retaining documents, that's the espionage act. and retention, theft of

government property. we also considered because of his flagrant conduct, the obstruction of justice, so, we looked at charges including straight-up obstruction, also making false statements to the government, which he did on several occasions. the evidence, if the public record is correct, is a solid evidence. prosecutors should be able to obtain and sustain a conviction. that answers the question, can you indict. and then you have to answer the more nuanced question of should you. a big part of that is whether or not an indictment would be consistent with how similar situations have been handled in the past. in this instance, indicting trump based on his conduct would be very consistent with how other cases involving retention but not dissemination of classified or other sensitive material has been handled. >> in the memo,, joyce you know that you do not have access to all of the

information that the justice department has that you guys relied on. news reports. if and when charges come down against, trump do you expect a largely different -- expect them to be different from what you all have laid out? what kind of potential surprise can we see? the big weapon that the federal government has that reporters don't, ability to testify, to subpoena witnesses to testify in front of a grand jury and to testify about records that the government can obtain via subpoena. typically the government knows a lot more than the public does when and cases indicted. this is a little bit different. the reporting has been so outstanding. many reporters are very well sourced. it would be surprising if there weren't a few surprises those could be good or bad for prosecutors. it's possible that there could be some form of exculpatory evidence that suggest trump is not guilty, maybe of any charges, or at least some of them. it's also possible that

governments evidence gets much stronger when they access information through the grandeur. they may even be able to prove for instance that trump disseminated these materials instead of just retaining them. we will have to wait until we see the indictment to know how that shakes out. >> if it does come, through let me ask you really quickly about two quick news reports before we bring and our other guest. talk about the new reporting and d. c. are deporting about the grand jury and what it's reconvening signals to you. visit anything to be read in mont pence not being charged with the retention of classified information. >> >> the decision on mike pence was entirely predictable. he voluntarily located documents, notified the archives and arranged to turn them over. what's so very different about trump's situation is that not only did he declined to return them to the, archives he tried to hide them, refused to comply, force

the government to execute a search warrant. we see two outcomes and those sorts of situations. as this grandeur reconvenes this week, it could -- they are continuing their investigative work, it's time for them to bring an indictment again. we don't know -- it is obscured, it is conducted in secret. something we can all take a lot of comfort, from the fact that the special counsel has managed to keep the lid on it, there have not been links. >> state representative, i want to ask you about the new york times reporting. reverend corcoran reported both vice mumbles of the work, those recordings are now believed to be in the hands of prosecutors. these recordings would normally be shielded by client attorney privilege. that privilege was revoked by a federal judge. what political fallout could we see from the contents of these reportings? not only for, trump

but the lawyers and aides. >> tragically, on the republican side, it's not going to be that much political fallout. joyce is very sorely, walking through the legal case. the political response from republican leaders, members of congress, it has been shameful. for a party that has long try to associate itself with being law in order, this instance, the calls are very much coming from within the house. we saw what happened with new york, trump was indicted there. it wasn't less republicans who wanted to support him. more elected officials who had been on the fence decided to endorse him, to embrace them and to continue to lift up our culture of lawlessness that we see rampant throughout the republican party. i had mentioned we

talked to desantis, you look at what he said right out of the gate. the presidency should not be separate from the fbi. i guess he would go down into individual cases. that doesn't get treated with the type of alarm that it should. the overtime window on this type of criminality and perceived questions of criminality, it has shifted in a way. there have been a few republicans who have stepped up. a lot more need to step up and say politics aside, this type of lawlessness, illegal behavior should not be tolerated at any level. certainly should not be something that republicans wanted in a nominee. sadly, i'm not going to hold my breath. >> i'm glad you brought up the point about desantis and his vision for law and order in this country. you made this point before, brittani, there

is a sad irony about how all this is playing out with trump. and the other person would be a completely different situation. the truth, is we have incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people who can't vote. yet, here we are, someone who is running for president who could be incarcerated. that is a big reveal of where we are as a country. what does that tell us about the deep disconnect in our country in just a system today? >> it tells us that democracy was already a fragile institution. this particular person, the party that continues to support him and the base that continues to push him forward continues to land a body blows and body blows to an already fragile institution. we are not talking about law and order. we're not talking about illegal activity. we're talking about the american experiment of

democracy itself. if someone is allowed to consistently thumb their nose at the constitution, at state law, at long-standing practice and tradition at the supreme court, what are we to say to people who are told every single day to participate in this democracy because their voice and their votes have count. these cases are coming fast and furious at trump. i use president lightly. we know the feds are not coming through the door unless the case is rock-solid. they understand that this is not just about holding trump accountable. this is about preventing the next trump. >> please stick, around we have more to discuss after the break. kevin mccarthy is reportedly handing over january six surveillance tapes to conspiracy theorists. we will tell you about that. first, richard louis is here with headlines. >> i'll get you an update, the white house is saying president biden has been briefed after that sonic broom rattled the d. c. area. it was caused by norad f-16 jets that were scrambled after a small plane entered capital airspace. a senior u. s. official telling nbc news that 113th wing of the capitol guardians, a unit of the d. c. national guard, flew out of joint base andrews

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promised reporters he would roll out access to 40,000 hours where the surveillance footage from the january 6th insurrection? you know, to other than tucker carlson? well, thanks to congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, we know that mccarthy gave access to more conservatives. in fact, to be more specific, more specific conspiracy driven conservatives who masquerade as quote unquote reporters. including julie kelly and election denier with the long history of spreading lies about a january six. kelly has painted the rioters as patriotic americans. slander the police who defended the capitol on that day. another recipient of the footage, john sullivan. disgraced opinion writer, notorious for spreading political smears about joe

biden including ukraine conspiracies during donald trump's first impeachment trial. they were so shoddy, they prompted is now former outlet to conduct an internal investigation. that investigation, the internal and found that he omitted details from the pieces that he failed to disclose. his sources, oh, also happened to be his own attorneys who were also happening to beat trump associates. my panel is back with. me let me start with you on this one. kevin mccarthy, he's got to know that sharing these tapes with conspiracy theorists is probably not what he promised to do. you know, he must know that sharing these tapes will only get a skewed version of events from that day. why is he playing with fire like this? >> amen, there are times as an elected official where you and other journalists ask tough questions were constituents ask us, to

take positions on difficult 50/50 issues. it's really simple. tuesday is an elected official that an armed attack on our nation's capital to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power, not only is it despicable, not only does it threaten the very foundations of our democracy, it should be an easy thing to not participate in trying to whitewash or obscure what happened in that moment. and that very low bar, really, any other person could just trip over, kevin mccarthy seems impossible for him to traverse that very low bar. he's third headline continues to play it with a fire that has not been put out in our country. the leading republican candidates have said they want to pardon these individuals who attacked our capital. kevin mccarthy wants to continue to obscure the facts of what happened on

that day. that day, the cuts to the core of this violent and often deranged maga movement. >> do you think that kevin mccarthy here is trying to control the media narrative because he's lost the legal narrative you have hundreds of these insurrections on january six who had been convicted for their roles on that day legally speaking we know where the law stands and what happens on that day and it's working its way up to donald trump. is kevin mccarthy trying to redefine the narrative in the media?? >> he hopes these two can breathe some new life into old lies. the reality is by sending these tapes to two journalists with these reputations one of these people was involved in perpetrating the rumor that officer for known, who suffered a, heart attack after being

subjected to a sun gun on january six, that he was a crisis actor who had been placed. that's the caliber of folks that the house speaker who has given these tapes to, that looks really desperate. it looks like someone who is out of options. these are not marjorie taylor greene's property. they are not the speaker's property they belong to the american people. if they're going to anyone in the media they should go to anyone in the media. that sort of factual background from what's going on here i think will ultimately undercut anything these folks come up with.. >> your thoughts on this britney. why is kevin mccarthy doing this. why is he doing this with these people if he so committed to transparency why not do it with even more credible

conservative journalists as opposed to conspiracy theory laden journalists? >> i have so many reactions. this >> go at it. >> we're not actually seeing are hiding of the collaboration with far-right some of them white supremacists. the idea that kevin mccarthy is here to stitch together a coalition of a reasonable party is thrown to the wayside when you have somebody who's willing to openly collaborate with conspiracy theorists and propagandists. he gave up a lot to get into the speaker seat and this is the payments he owes the folks who helped get him there. and these are the kinds of actions we're seeing perhaps these are not reasonable republicans at all perhaps they are hell-bent by staying in power. and at any cost, including our democracy. i'm also recognizing here a terribly ironic comparison when i first hired organizing around police violence, one of the things we learned about police unions is that they sometimes work with republican-led state

legislatures to create officer bills of rights. it sounds innocuous, one of the things layered in there is that officers who are accused of sometimes deadly police violence are able to gain access to the evidence that is going to be used against them. why does that matter. they're able to create a narrative and tell their own version of events. a false version of events on what happens and they're also better able to prepare and plan to do it again the next time. and that is specifically what i'm worried about here and specifically worry about how this narrative is going to be passed by the american people through these conspiracy theorists. and i'm worried about the fact that those folks who participated in january six, who wanted to participate in january six and who are pushing january six from the background will better be able to prepare because they've gotten access to this evidence. this is the kind of

worry that all of us should share, this, is again, not just about holding those who are already guilty and accountable,, but about, preventing these kinds of failures of democracy in the future. >> we've always said that donald trump wasn't smart enough to successfully pull off january six the first time. the next person who comes has learned from his attempts and can certainly do it. state representative kenyatta was saying wrong desantis is demonstrating willingness on that front. joyce, vance, malcolm kenyatta, brittany cunningham, thank you for joining me tonight. i greatly appreciated as always. next, i'm speaking with democratic congressman robert garcia, about the 2024 youth vote the. the debt limit deal, george santos and a whole lot more and there's so much to discuss. we're back in a moment. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours

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gen z voters went up in the 2022 midterms well turnout among other generational groups remain the same or went down. 65% of voters between the ages of 18 and 29 supported democrats that year. that's according to a recent analysis by the democratic jaded firm it could explain why the anticipated red wave in 2022 turned out to be more than a ripple. political scientist jeffrey layman tell the new york times that demographics are changing in a way that will continue to favor democrats it will become increasingly difficult for the gop tuesday nationally competitive with a base of just white working class people and about christians and older white people. the republicans are staggering to max out their support among these groups. joining me now is democratic congressman robert garcia of california. it's great to see you. thank you for making time

for us your reactions to your findings do you think democrats are doing enough to make sure they are holding on to these voters for 2024 and beyond with the issues that matter to them? >> i'm happy to be here. we're really excited about the news we saw that young people are turning out in big numbers. they were there in the midterms and they're going to be there in 2024 for the president. and at the end of the day younger voters want a government that's going to support all. people you're talking about issues around student debt. the president has lead on issues about supporting lgbtq plus rights. these are things that people care about.. they don't want to see the country go backwards. democrats, we are very encouraged about what's going to happen next year. it's part of the vote. it will continue to grow. it's also a very diverse population. these are people of all kinds and all places that want to support each other. young people are the future they are going to

take charge. and we're excited to be there. >> we are seeing a growing number of young members of congress., mostly in the, house the median age across all senators and representatives is still 59 years old. does this undoubtedly mean there is a gap between young voters and the people who represent them? it seems to be a bit of a disconnect on the representative front. things are changing i'm president of the freshman class. and we are definitely lowering the average. age it's exciting to see young people and younger folks with different experiences in the class. they are active folks. they are pushing back. there is no time to sit around. we are frustrated with the system. we are also supporting the presidents. we're going to work really hard to ensure we keep the white house next year and

we expand the majorities. we're going to win back the house. i think the younger members in the freshman class especially you will see all of us out across the country campaigning for the things that people care about. to ensure we actually have sensible gun laws in this country. that we are pushing back against the attacks on diversity on gay people and were fired up and we're gonna be every step of the way in the campaign. >> let me switch gears to the debt deal. you unlike other members of the congressional progressive caucus you floated for it reach for biden and mccarthy. walk us through the rationale for that decision. >> absolutely. most members of the caucus are for the deal and there are some that chose not to. that's okay we all talked about. it's where we're going to be at and how folks filed and at the end of the day defaulting was not an option. we are not going to allow the country to default. some members of the caucus felt that none of the votes were there. there are enough votes fast the finish line. it's taking a stand in a position against some of the changes and the go shaded cuts in the deal. the deal was perfect i had

concerns about a lot of the deals. there's concerns around be budget levels around changes to food programs. at the end of the day the alternative would have been horrific the fact that we save social security and the student that compromise happens issues around medicaid. we kept support for veteran programs is really important. let, alone if we had gone to the default we're talking about enormous job losses the hit to the economy would have been hard to come back from. we also talk to our other friends in the caucus once we knew we had enough votes, some thought it was important and i support that to take a stand. at the end of the day our goal was to get the deal done. >> let's talk about pride month for a moment. you are the first lgbtq immigrant elected to the house. you said that this private

month should have more protesting less celebrating. please expand on that for us., i'm obviously very proud to be cart of the community we've. had so much progress in this country. right now the community is under attack. it's under attack in a way we haven't seen in decades the radical extremism on the right is taking on history in schools. they're trying to separate fan families, there are not acknowledging that adopted mothers and fathers our family members it sustained and dangerous. pride has its roots and protesting standing up and in activism. i've been telling folks not just at home, to remember the roots of pride it started off as a protest we take to the streets during the pride month, it's happening across the country. we need to remind folks that we are in a very serious fight against extreme forces like marjorie taylor greene that are pushing horrible rhetoric to attack and

harm communities. we're going to push back this, year pride should be a protest. robert garcia, california i greatly appreciate it. ahead, the one hiccup that could upset democrats as the presidential chances in 2024. a presidential announcement that no one is looking forward to. yes, this guy, chris christie is about to enter the race again. >> i thank him for all the ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ charmin ultra soft has so much cushiony softness, it's hard for your family to remember they can use less. sweet pillows of softness! this is soft! holy charmin! oh! excuse me! roll it back, everybody! - sorry! - sorry! - sorry!

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kindness is we shared with each other over the years more importantly i thanked him for leaving the private sector. for saying there is a need for strong leadership in the country. for being willing to step out of the private sector and offer himself or a public service and for leadership in this country at a time when our party and our nation so desperately needed it. i am happy to be on the trump. teen i look forward to working with him. >> i am happy to be on the trump team. nbc news reports

that this week trump were credit critic turned ally turned trump critic again, chris christie will enter the 2024 primaries. for months, rumors have swirled around christy's plans to enter the race. almost no one believes he can win. reports suggest that he might not believe that either instead he has focused on what some are calling a kamikaze mission to take down donald trump in fairness, christy carried out a similar mission in 2016 he's credited with snuffing out senator rubio's prospects after a fierce clash on a new hamster debate stage. he never succeeded in doing the same to donald trump. kristie was a fierce trump attacker early in the primaries calling him a carnival barker, in unserious law entertainer moonlighting as a politician he suggested that nominating trump would destabilized the gop. he put hillary clinton and the white

house. and then once chris christie realized that he couldn't actually beat trump he had a change of heart. he changed his tune and he came one of the first established republicans to endorse the run giving trump a level of legitimacy i could say that was previously unattainable he even vied to be the running mates. when that didn't pan out he served as the head of the transition team at least until he was fired and that's according to chris kristie for clashing with jared kushner and thus begins the next phase of christy's career he became a network news contributor getting a constant source of income for planning on trump and bashing the administration from a safe distance. it seems for a while that christy had become a firm never trumper. until, again, after years of attacks from new studios christie stopped hitting trump stepped back into the d. c.

spotlight and emerged as none other than sheep organizer of donald trump's presidential debate team working with then president to take down joe biden in front of a national audience. and then after trump lost, guess what happens, you know this is going, christie flipped again. not only calling trump a danger to american democracy, but also finding new ways to profit from his newfound trump criticism. despite not being a relevant member of the gop for years and despite his on again off again relationship with trump, christy wrote a book declaring that the post-2020 republican party had to move on from trump if it was ever going to succeed again. look, i've got to be honest with, you my head is just spinning and i'm dizzy it's hard to keep track of the allegiances of chris christie, unless you follow the money when it is lucrative for

christie, guess what he does, he hugs trump and he embraces him when it's lucrative for christie he bashers trump and hates on him forgive me for not believing that chris christie whether he admits it or not wants to torpedo trump's electoral chances because he cares about our republic or our democracy. no, he cares about his bottom line for my two cents, his run is an effort to cling on to any kind of relevancy in this country and if he hits trump i don't know maybe he can get another tv gigs somewhere maybe could write a book and get some paid speeches under his belt. he can keep reaping the benefits of the never trump movement even if he's made it clear multiple times now that he's not a never trumper use just a sometimes never other times okay trumper if chris christie announces this week, i am begging the news media to do me a favor and

look beyond the zingers and trump attacks and as chris christie actually what is he doing in this race his track record has proven he's not capable of being an actual trump sleigh or. he's never acted like a patriot selfless soldier that's some paint him to be. if you believe that he is any of those comey i have a bridge in new jersey to sell you. and we will be right back. >> one of the reasons president voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ [♪♪] did you know, unless you treat dandruff regularly, voltaren. the joy of movement. it will keep coming back. try head & shoulders shampoo. dandruff is caused by irritation to a germ that lives on everyone's scalp. unlike regular shampoo, head & shoulders contains zinc pyrithione, which fights the dandruff-causing germ and helps prevent it from coming back. it's gentle on hair and provides up to 100% dandruff protection, clinically proven. try head & shoulders shampoo and conditioner. for best results, use with every wash. this has been medifacts for head & shoulders.

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2020 was that 2% of voters elected a third party candidates compared to 6% of voters who chose a third party candidate in 2016. back, then jill stein and gary johnson warranted and up -- and battleground states like michigan, pennsylvania, wisconsin to swing those states electoral votes from hillary clinton to donald trump. now you might argue that those third-party voters could have back trump if stein and johnson

were not on the ballot. actually, exit polled data suggests otherwise. the 2020 nbc news exit poll found that 5% of national voters saying they cast ballots for third party candidates in 2016, those voters in 2020 broke for joe biden over donald trump by more than a 2 to 1 ratio. democrats, while they are panicking. that is what might happen in 2016. it might unfold again in 2024. the panic stands for the group no labels, it is a self acclaimed censures by -- a massive amount of cash to put in and dependent on the ballot in 2024. the group is spending $70 million in the event of a biden and trump rematch. one democratic operative told nbc news, this is absolutely one of the easiest ways for donald trump to become president. my next guests are leaders of political groups sounding the alarm about this no labels plan. the executive director of the progressive policy group slammed it in an op-ed saying bear, quote, offering an illusion, not a choice. at a

time when our nation is being tested, this organization could help defeat a mainstream blue -- and a venediktova maga republican. rana opting joins me now, as well as matt bennett, the executive vice president of public affairs for the think tank third wave it's great to have both of you with us. is there any scenario where this push by the no labels party doesn't give trump a second term. they know their candidates won't win so why this push. >> the only scenario that i can think of is a fantasy land scenario there is no way despite no labels purported intention that this strategy won't in fact swing the election in favor of donald trump, ron desantis, or whoever the republican nominee for

president is going to be magnus steak. whoever it is is going to be beholden to a far-right mogul base. and that should concern everyone. >> matt, you've written the third path can't -- and cost clinton the election in 2016. another attempt could do the same to biden in 2024. they have to know what they are doing. what do you think >> i don't know what the actual intention is >> what the result will be's reelecting trump. what they are telling them, and i suppose what they believe is that somehow all of the laws of physics have been suspended. things are completely different. somehow america is going to choose a candidate for the first time ever despite the fact that no one has ever come close. no third party candidate has won a single electoral vote since 1968 when george wallace did it by being a racist. roosevelt who is carved into russian, or did not come close

to winning as a third party candidate. it's not going to happen whether they believe it or not i don't know as rondo it's if they do this there are not going to win anything. they could swing enough votes to be decisive. >> what's your group doing to fight against this, rana? where does the fight play out directly >> the first and foremost most important thing we do right now is to make it very clear to the voters all across this country what the threat is here around this strategy. and we are talking to our members and we have nearly 10 million members within the move on community. we are educating folks about this no label strategy. honestly, if you're not really paying attention, oh, that's great we should have more choice in the presidential election. i would love that too unfortunately, we live in a two party system. and that is a reality in which we are in. there are a number of smart and brilliant strategies that one good employee to build

real political power huey-burns multi party system in this country. this no label strategy is not that. this is a unattempted that is ill-advised, if not ill intended to spoil the election in favor of a republican nominee. >> can i ask you about that? you bring up an important point. they look at our country with 330 billion people with its diversity and, say you have to whittle this down to two political parties as a binary choice. it's frustrating.

what's, how do you make america a more multi party system effectively and meaningfully so you are not left with this argument every four years. don't be a spoiler candidate. the intentions, perhaps, of somebody advancing, you know, a third way, a third party is not automatically shut down on the idea that you're just acting as a spoiler. >> right, well, move on works with organizations out there that do this work of building real third-party political power out there in the states. the working families party is one of them. and it is based in a strategy of how you actually when being on the ballot in those states and have people behind that. this is a dark money funded effort there isn't -- make no label strategy. they are not a membership based organization that's thriving this. one of the strategy moore has taken in this two party system, to really work within the democratic tend to push the party to be more people for us and be more progressive. elect leaders that champion policies that help make every day peoples lives better. until we advance the real strategy to build that power, we easily can

be tricked into these facades, such as the strategy of no labels.. it's worth mentioning that joe manchin is on fox this morning and was asked if he'd run as a third party candidate on a no labels ticket. he did actually give a yes or no response. that, i, think perhaps is going to have democrats concerned. what do you make of this? we know he's a power hungry person. we see that and how he negotiates about the most basic parts in the legislative process. if he wants to have relevancy within the larger democratic process, he can play a bit of a spoiler here. >> yet, we're worried about that. look, we really hope joe manchin runs for reelection, he has defied all the odds. he's running in a red state and winning. i hope he does. it's very dangerous to consider him running for president on the third party

ticket. he's not gary johnson feels that. it is lovely or fair. and he has a lot of money behind him. they have something like six times the amount of money that is nine and johnson spent win total. a year and a half out. it's really scary to think about manchin on the ticket with a ton of money. a lot of it is secret. money. raised in unlimited ways. he could do real damage. we are very much hoping that he chooses the senate. we'll find out one other thing. he will meet the press this morning. the rnc tweeted out a comment that he made, giving credit where the debt limit deal hot fuel volume. the republicans understand that joe manchin taking shots at joe biden is good for them. perhaps good for trump. we're worried about that. >> i guess looking ahead we, have 50 seconds left. how do democrats come back -- it's a double edged sword. if they give it too much attention, they are scared and afraid. it can be exploited by republicans. if they ignore, it's it can also backfire. >> look, they have a lot of money

and ability to make noise. they started this in the new york times. i think we really have to take it on. we have to convince donors and candidates like joe manchin and hogan and others that during this would be >> -- nothing could possibly be more destructive to our nation than trump. >> it's interesting. it's a thing we will follow closely. especially as more and more candidates put their hats in the ring across the spectrum in this country. thank you to the both of you for this important conversation. thank you for making time for us. we are cuckoo back here at to dine, follow us on twitter,, tiktok instagram. i am an msnbc. don't go anywhere after a quick break, stick around for the cultures

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