coerce people into working. >> folks can read more at nbcnews.com. great reporting. thank you so much for coming on the program. that's going to do it for us this hour. join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday 1 to 3:00 eastern on msnbc. former arkansas governor and republican presidential candidate asa hutchinson is about to join katy tur to discuss his presidential campaign, that's coming up on "katy tur reports" right now. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. it appears the special counsel could be nearing a charging decision in the investigation of classified documents found at mar-a-lago. nbc news reports after weeks of little action the d.c. grand jury is meeting this week. is it just to hear from new witness? if so, who? or is it to vote on whether to indict donald trump. we have chuck rosenberg here to

set expectations for what could and would happen next because it does seem like something is happening. today our cameras caught three of donald trump's lawyers at the department of justice minutes after they left, donald trump started posting about the case saying, quote, how can doj possibly charge me, who did nothing wrong, when no other presidents were charged? so does donald trump know something we do not? joining us is senior legal correspondent laura jarrett and nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. donald trump's lawyers were at doj, ken. do we know who they were meeting with? >> we know who they weren't meeting with. attorney general garland and deputy attorney general lisa mona core were not involved. presumably it was with career officials who have some oversight over this case and are briefed on this case. it's very common for defense attorneys to come in at the end

of an investigation and make their case to management at the justice department that their client shouldn't be indicted. and it's just one more piece of evidence that this investigation appears to be reaching its end. >> one more piece of evidence. so we have that. we have donald trump tweeting right after it. can we -- take that to mean anything? donald trump talking about charging minutes after his lawyers walk snout. >> i mean, i think we've seen in the past, we saw in the new york case, when the heat starts to turn up, trump often, you know, comes out with these all caps inflammatory tweets denouncing prosecutors and then prosecutors take action. so look, forget about trump for a second. his former lawyer was on "meet the press" yesterday and said that he believed that since the grand jury hadn't met since may, that jack smith, the special counsel, was reaching a charging decision in this case. now he thinks it's possible that there won't be charges, but that

was before we reported that the grand jury is expected to meet this week. it's possible that that could be a meeting to vote on an indictment. we don't know. grand juries are unpredictable. there are loose ends that may need to be tied up. it does feel like we're coming to an end here. we've been talking about this for months, right, legal experts believe the evidence they've seen in public in this case is very strong. >> all right. do we know what day the grand jury is meeting? >> i don't think we're prepared to report that. i think we have some, you know, hints and signals, but the problem with this is, the grand jury process is secret. if we report a certain day, and it moves it looks like a mess. we're trying to be careful with what we know and don't know and what we do expect is that it's going to happen this week. the fact that his attorneys are in there now is again, one of the signs pointing to this being in the final stages. >> why would the attorneys be at the doj? >> they want to do what they're paid to do, to make their best possible pitch about why they think their client has done nothing wrong, should be treated

just like the former vp pence who is face nothing charges, and they want to be able to say to their client look, we tried, we made our best arguments to the justice department, and look, you can't do anything about it. >> in terms of timing on this, we've seen witnesses go into the grand jury room. we believe in connection with the special counsel. is there anybody left that we haven't seen that we might want to see regarding the documents case? any outstanding witness that we know of? >> no. it's part of why, again, so many of us have been reporting this is reaching the final stages, because all of the possible witnesses that would have been sort of material to the case, have already provided their testimony. it doesn't appear there are na other key witnesses left? >> in terms of process could they have a witness come in and give testimony and have them vote in the same day? could those two things happen at the same time? >> absolutely. >> you're feeling like -- from your reporting that this is coming close. >> well, i want to be cautious

about it. what if a witness goes in and tells them something they haven't heard before or what if a witness somehow remembers oh, there was a document left somewhere. so much about it still unknown and why it's important that we just let go of what we know -- >> very smart. your reporting says that there are two central legal questions here. what are they? >> the first is, did he improperly retain national defense information or classified information? when he took his documents back to mar-a-lago and took them to mar-a-lago in the first place, did he retain them in a way that has broken the law? did he obstruct the government's efforts to get them back. remember for months he and his attorneys are negotiating with the national archives about returning the documents saying, please give us our documents back. he does return some of them, but not all of them, which made the government have to ask for them through a subpoena and get a search warrant to get the documents. because he held on to them,

there's the question of retaining them and then also obstructing the investigation. >> if jack smith does decide to indict or if he just wants to make an announcement about the decision do we expect it to come from him or merrick garland? >> that's a good question. there's been a lot, i think, ability how this investigation has run and how it's different from the one, the first special counsel this president had with robert mueller and this is different. jack smith really is being allowed to run this investigation, somewhat independently. i say somewhat because he's, obviously, still a part of the justice department, he still has oversight in some respects, but merrick garland is not running this investigation day to day in the same way that robert mueller was supervised. he's being allowed to do this, based on our reporting, somewhat independently. so i don't think that you necessarily will see him make a statement, other than an indictment, but he might. or we might see something from merrick garland. >> are we sure this is just about the documents or could

this be about january 6th. >> i think it's safe to say this is about the documents. the the january 6th investigation, trump's efforts to cling to power is on a separate track. >> we shouldn't expect to see both of those decisions made and announced at the same time. >> based on what we know right now, i don't think you should see that right now. >> thank you very much. we appreciate it. joining me former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg. never get over your skis, so i don't have to warn you, even if we hear something this week we don't know what we are going to hear, even if next week or the week after. in terms of what laura was talking about, the two legal questions, the improper retaining of classified documents and obstruction what can you tell us about the evidence that it appears jax smith has gathered on those two fronts? >> first of all we only have a portion of it, katy. prosecutors, i guarantee you, know a lot more than we know. at some point, if they charge

mr. trump, we'll know more. but right now, they hold as significant advantage. laura's reporting was very important because it reminded us if someone is going to be charged, for instance, for mishandling classified information, it has to be intentional, purposeful. it can't be by accident or mistake. so from a little bit of what we've seen, including a recording of mr. trump talking about classified document that he said he was not able to share, that helps the government show mr. trump under stood how classified materials ought to be handled and the limits on how he could handle them post presidency with respect to the obstruction of justice charge, should that come down from on high, it would have to be done correctly, not by accident or mistake or other reason. those are the two things i think we are properly looking at, mishandling and obstruction,

with those intent elements. things have to be done intentionally or purposefully or willfully in order for it to be a crime. >> what is the best defense that donald trump has against this? >> well, if by this you mean mishandling, the best defense would be that he believed in good faith, not often words we apply to mr. trump's conduct, that he had the right to declassify documents in his mind or declassify them by walking out of the oval office and up to the lincoln bedroom or that they were declassified by someone else or inadvertently brought to mar-a-lago, they didn't know they were in his house, and he tried in good faith to return them to the national archives but that process failed. again, it would turn on accident or mistake, just as the government would have to prove willfulness or intentionality to

show a crime, mr. trump's lawyers would have to prove the opposite, whatever happened wasn't intentional or willful. >> in his social media statements about the meeting of his lawyers today or the one that followed the meeting his lawyers had at doj, he brings up hillary clinton and 33 deleted e-mails saying what he did was equivalent to that and brings up past presidents. anything in the past that has happened by a former president or somebody running for president that approximates what donald trump is being investigated for here is it. >> not that i know of. when you look at the fact that department of justice dekind to prosecute mr. pence, a completely appropriate decision, by the way, you see a stark difference between what mr. pence did, he found stuff, reported it and koortsed, and what mr. trump appeared to have done, which is obstruct the investigation. either way, we often talk about

obstructing an investigation as consciousness of guilt. if you don't bear any fault on the underlying activity, the mishandling, why would you try to obstruct the investigation into the mishandling. no is the simple answer it your question. i don't know of an appropriate analog. >> let me ask you this f he is indicted and we do not know whether he will be, but i'm saying if, what happens after that? does he file a motion to quash the indictment and if he does, what are the next steps? >> well if he is, we don't know if he will be or not, he will file a bunch of motions froorngs quash the indictment, perhaps arguing that attorney-client privilege shouldn't have been pierced, perhaps arguing that he had declassification authority. before a trial occurs, a judge will hear and decide a whole wrath of motions from defendants

in criminal cases, and so what happens next, is that you'll hear those motions argued. judges will make a -- a judge will make a determination. if the government is able to get through all of that pretrial motion stuff, then one day there might be a trial. that's all a big if and predicated on whether or not mr. trump is charged with any crimes at all. >> you're saying one day. that makes me feel like you're talking about something way off in the future? do you have an idea of what one day, where that might fall on the calendar? >> these things don't tend to move very quickly. katy, not as quickly as you might prefer. so i would imagine many months, in some districts it can take years. i hope that doesn't happen here. i was spoiled. i was a federal prosecutor in the eastern district of virginia, also known as the rocket docket, where cases tended to move relatively quickly and even there, it could take months.

>> rocket docket. i think we've heard that before regarding other cases we've been following out of virginia. chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. coming up, has the ukrainian counter offensive started? what russia says happened this morning. asa hutchinson joins me, former governor of arkansas is running to be president, what his own party is doing to make it harder for him to run. is there a serial killer in oregon? authorities are investigating a link between six suspicious deaths. we're back in 60 seconds.

(vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. has ukraine's long expected offensive begun? launched a significant attack on the eastern trp frorngts the russian ministry of defense released drone video shows it says russian troops fighting

back killing hundreds of ukrainian soldiers. ukraine says those claims are, quote, an absolute lie. nbc news has not been able to independently verify either assertion. joining me now from kharkiv is foreign correspondent molly hunter. what is going on? >> reporter: katy, we've been chasing it all morning long. the defense statement overnight, very early this morning local time set off us asking every ukrainian official, every single pao for battalion we could get our hands on trying to figure out if something different was going on today. the russian allegations as you mentioned, they said they claimed they repelled a large-scale offensive. the russians used offensive, not counter offensive, in the southern part of the eastern donestk region. they said it was unsuccessful and hundreds of ukrainian troops died. nbc news has not verified that. you did quote one of the officials we spoke with who called it an absolute lie, that we have seen no losses according to ukrainian spokesperson for

the eastern forces of the ukrainian army. we also have another statement, katy, from the deputy defense minister who writes what's happening now? we're continuing the defense we started on february 24th, 2022. a defensive operation includes everything including counter offensive actions. now katy, ukrainian officials have long said they're not going to announce or confirm any kind of counter offensive. when we sat down with one of zelenskyy's top advisors, he said they were in the preparation phase, we would start to see this counteroffensive ramp up. there was also this amazing video, i think we have it, to show your audience, of the general forces put this video out of ukrainian soldiers shhing, a silence campaign, you have the defense minister quoting depeche mode saying words are very unnecessary. they can only do harm. so we have absolutely no confirmation from ukrainian officials that what we saw today of the intensifying attack on the russian defensive line was in any way part of this counter

offensive. we're watching these attacks on the russian defensive line, watching these ukrainian attacks on russian assets behind enemy lines ramp up in recent days. >> never thought i would hear depeche mode quoted in that way. molly hunter, thank you very much. coming up next, what former governor asa hutchinson says the rnc is doing to make his run for president even harder. he joins me live. unconstitutional and vague. a federal judge in tennessee rejects the state's anti-drag law. what it could mean for other anti-lbgt laws across the country. ws across the country. (smelling) ew. gotta get rid of this. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. i've spent centuries evolving with the world. that's the nature of being the economy. observing investors choose assets

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quote, wreaks with constitutional maladies of vagueness. quote, substantially over broad. quote, passed for the inappropriate purpose of chilling constitutionally free speech. those are the words of a federal judge who ruled a tennessee law restricting drag shows is unconstitutional. the first of its kind law was written to ban, quote, adult cabaret entertainment, anywhere that could be seen by a minor, the performance considered to be sexually explicit or harmful. a determination that would be made at the discretion of an officer. that decision, which came on the eve of memphis' pride weekend, is an initial victory for supporters of lbgt rights after

weeks of fear in the law's language. joining me antonia hilton following the story for months. who is this judge and what's the reaction been? >> this is judge thomas parker, a trump appointed federal judge, and according to some of the folks on the ground, i was in tennessee on the ground for many months, many republicans thought they would be on his side and were taken aback when in march he initially signaled he would take the side of performers but putting a retraining order on the law. and then performers pushed forward, they made the case to the court in the different ways in which they saw this violating their first amendment rights, but also putting them at risk of discriminatory enforcement a phrase also in the ruling. that's because of what you mentioned about the different ways in which law enforcement agencies would be able to interpret this statute, when you look at it, quite short and the word the judge used to describe it over broad is sort of a legal

term for vague. the concern was that people could decide what meant sexually explicit to them, there wouldn't be consistency, concern among transgender someone could see them and think they were performing in drag and charge them under this law. it caused this fear in that community there and caused performers who i spoke to, more than a dozen them, to start pulling back from some of their performance, canceling performs, changing performances they had planned and worrying about their livelihood. >> is the state going to appeal this or rewrite the law to make it more specific? >> that's what it's looking like right now. an appeal likely is going to come from the attorney general in tennessee. and the lawmaker who wrote this legislation, senate majority leader jack johnson, released a statement expressing his disappointment saying this was a win for people who want to expose children to sexually explicit content, which on that

side of the debate has been that, saying it's sexually inappropriate and threatening. that's the rhetoric in his statement there. what i've heard is they see this as an initial victory but the concern now is that there's more to come. take a listen to a conversation i had with some performers. >> they didn't have the words for it is one of the few times i felt powerful, scene, i felt right in my skin. i can do anything i need to do when i'm in drag. >> are all the children out of the building? are there any children? look around. if you're a child raise your hand. not emotionally, mine legally. >> the agenda is to just exist and to not -- and to feel valid. >> the agenda is to go to the bathroom without having to worry about being punched in the face. >> you heard the last line. the agenda is not to worry about getting punched in the face when i go to the bathroom. that is for many people i've talked to. what's at stake here, they worry

laws like this would encourage violence against them. it was basically a state sanctioned way of allowing lbgtq people to fuel further excluded in a state like tennessee. it's pride month. the relief they can go to parades and events and celebrate, but there's concern for the legislation that could come down the line. >> what has prompted all of this? drag shows have been around for such a long time. why suddenly are they being signaled out by republican legislatures, republicans n states across the country? what has changed in the last six months, year, that has made them a target? >> i would say that politics, not necessarily the performance of drag, has changed. we haven't seen much evidence of that. most drag performers have been doing their routines for decades in cities like nashville, bringing in a lot of tax dollars to the state there. in tennessee and other places around the country. the politics, though, has changed here. this has become part of the

culture war. people have leveraged conversations about transgender children's health care. >> i wonder if it's the trans issue that made this -- >> i would tell you some people i have spoken to do not know what difference is between a drag performer, drag between, or someone transgender. gender bending is the term i heard in tennessee there. there's a discomfort there. and so what the performers feel is like this was a way to legislate around performances, work, their livelihood and impact that community in another way as we were seeing legislation like bans on gender affirming care move forward at the same time, they saw those things as connected, katy. >> got it. antonio, thank you very much. official in oregon are worried there might be a serial killer on the loose. six women have been found dead in the portland metro area. the first was 22-year-old kristen smith who was reported missing in december and found

dead in a wooded area in february. joining me now is nbc news correspondent marissa paris. what are authorities saying? >> reporter: there's a lot of things we don't know, and the big question is there a serial killer on the loose in the northwest of the country. let's start with the facts of what we know. you saw the six faces there. all of these women under 40. they vanished and then seemingly turned up dead between weeks and months later. this was between february and may, all of their bodies found in that short time span within 100 miles of each other. so, of course, people are wondering, how did they all die? the thing is that has not been released. we only know in terms of one victim, joanna sparks, blunt force trauma, four out of the six outside of joanna were ruled suspicious deaths and one they say they're not thinking that was a result of foul play.

but a lot of questions here. i think that when we spoke to family members, particularly of joanna speaks, they've been active on social media asking for answers they're not getting, saying this right now, the way things are at the moment, how they don't really know what happened to all of these women, to have them turn up dead within weeks of each other, is deeply unsettling. >> what in the world is going on in portland, oregon? it made us all as a family feel very uneasy. i hope to find the person or people who did this to my sister, but at least five other women. >> reporter: let's talk about things where they stand with police. portland police came out with a lengthy statement trying to push back against accusations and fears of a serial killer saying in part, quote, i cannot say we're not looking into it, but we do not want the public to jump to any conclusions. so they've been very careful with their wording here, katy,

saying that they do not have reason to believe that all six cases are connected. i think it's important to remember that that is a very carefully worded statement. that might mean that they don't believe all six cases connected. keep in mind that portland police are only leading the investigation on two out of the six. we know for a fact that in surrounding counties, they are working together outside of portland to see if there's a connection. we spoke with a former fbi agent they're going to be looking at the weapons that were used, do the victims know each other, any connection between them, the manner of death? so much that hasn't been released to the public or isn't known yet before they can make that type of determination. >> and what do the victims have in common? marissa, thank you very much. coming up next, asa hutchinson joins me live. the former governor of arkansas is right there. we're going to ask him what he think about the rnc's new rules about debates. don't go anywhere. dot n'go anywhere. tal health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements

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the republican primary will get even bigger this week. it's going to grow by three. chris christie and doug burgum are expected to make it official while former vice president mike pence has just made it official on paper. filing with the fec today. in order to actually get on the debate stage, they will need to make and meet the rnc's new

requirements. requirements my next guest says deprive voters in early states a chance to get to know all of their options. joining me now is republican presidential candidate and former governor of arkansas asa hutchinson. now the rnc and other political parties will say the dnc would say this as well, we have a big field when they do have a big field, we have to have some requirements to get you on the debate stage so it's not completely unruly. what's your argument against that? >> well, i'm fine with that. and if you look at what the democrats did in the last presidential election cycle, they said you have to have 1% in the polls, a certain percent, or you could have a certain number of donors, such as the 40,000 donors that are required. what rnc did was combine those and said you had to have both. it's not an alternative means to access the ballot.

it is really trying to narrow the field artificially early on. you think about it, this debate will be in august. that's a long time before the february primary or caucus in iowa. so that's a lot of time to build the support and build the momentum, but early on there's these artificial barriers. we're going to make the debate stage and make the requirements that are needed, but i would prefer a much more open process leaving more decision making to the voters actually versus trying to nare rot field artificially. >> there are some in the republican party who are worried about the field getting too big because then they believe that it splits the vote amongst so many candidates it will end up handing donald trump the nomination again because he already has that locked in 30% of the republican base. governor sununu alluded to this when he wrote his op-ed about

why he's not running saying the stakes are too high for a crowded field to hand the nomination to a candidate who just has 30% of the vote. i know you have your own concerns about donald trump. >> well, i do. and the fact that there's more jumping in this week indicates that i've plowed good ground, indicating we need a new voice in the republican party and for our country. so that's the fact that three other candidates are jumping in there, indicates there's a wide open lane for a nontrump candidate. whenever you look at the number this year it's about half of what it was in 2016. it's a different year. people know donald trump. they're going to make their decision. what i'm excited about is, we have candidates that will talk about the future over economy, which i believe is the number one issue, about border security, my background as under

secretary for border security in the bush administration fits with that challenge. all of these candidates will bring a new perspective that will bring new ideas for our future, mine is unique and that's what we want to market and i think that's what the debate stage will determine and give that information to the voters. >> one of the big issues the democrats will be focusing on is abortion. it's proven to be a winning political issue for the democrats in special elections and certainly they would argue for the midterms. when you were governor you signed a trigger law that had no exceptions for rape or incest. it banned abortions at all stages exsfepts a mother's life was at risk. no exceptions for rape or incest and doctors would face a $100,000 fine for performing an abortion and ten years in prison. a federal abortion ban is what you would sign if you become

president. do you think that's a winning issue? >> well, i think it's important for each state to determine what their public health policy is going to be on this issue. in arkansas, it's a conservative state. we wanted to protect the life of the unborn as well as the mother, and so at the time i signed that legislation, i did prefer two additional exceptions for rape and incest that i think are very appropriate. when you look at anything in a national standard, those exceptions will be debated. i support those exceptions. as well as reasonable limitations. so the debate will continue at the national level but practically, new hampshire is going to be able to make their determination through their legislature. arkansas will as well as the debate continuing on what are the appropriate exceptions for the restrictions on the

abortions. >> you're talking about states deciding but you're also saying you would sign a 15-week federal ban, the federal government deciding for all of the states. >> well again, i don't think we will get there, but i'm pro life. and if there is a restrictions that are put on that are reasonable and have appropriate exceptions, and it can get through congress, then i would sign that. but let's look to see what debate is and as i said, it would take a super majority for that to happen for either one of the parties. you know, the democrats want to have a national standard, president biden does, but that is to have abortion really without restrictions. the republicans have a different national position. in the end it's going to be left with the states and the elected representatives to determine the sensitive issue. in arkansas we expanded maternal health care and expanded our adoption services. these are things that are important whenever you do have

those kind of problematic pregnancies. >> let me ask you one more about the republican party. what do you think the rnc should do if donald trump gets indicted again this time by the special counsel? >> well, what the rnc should do? >> do you think the rnc should intervene and allow him to keep on running? it's not totally up to them but do you think the rnc has play with a candidate who has been indicted once or maybe twice? >> no. whenever a candidate meets the constitutional principles or standards for being a candidate for president, you know, the party is not in a position to step in and restrict that. now it's part of the debate and it's an issue for the voters. if you have a president or candidate that's going to be sidetracked in criminal proceedings, and has criminal jeopardy, that's an issue as to

whether that's somebody that can win in a november election. the voters will have to decide whether you're talking about access to the debate or talking about access to the ballot, i think broader and let's not put these artificial restrictions in. it is a serious issue. obviously, the criminal proceedings that are under investigation and proceeding with former president trump. >> former arkansas governor asa hutchinson thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. >> thank you. good to be with you. >> absolutely. coming up, first it was a chinese fighter jet flying too close to a u.s. military plane. now it's a chinese navy ship coming within yards of an american warship. what taiwan might have to do with these flare ups. o do with these flare ups

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and these workers were not making that mark. so they made them go home. and so that is really the very latest. so it's not really looking good as of right now. >> this was affecting ports all over california -- long beach, tacoma, seattle, all of them. what is it going to do to the supply chain? >> it's already impacted the supply chain. you're hearing the stories on if west coast that things are back open, but the damage is done. i gave you a great chart. looking at the container wait time at the port of oakland, remember that was ground zero, if you will. that port was down for three whole days. and if you look at that chart, you can see those are the wait times of the containers leaving the port. and you're looking at an average wait of one container waiting there for a little over seven

days. that was three days ago, so you can only imagine the buildup, if you will. and all of this is leading to cries for help for the biden administration to step in, the national retail federation about an hour ago issuing a press release begging the biden administration to step in to make sure that these negotiations can find a final resolution. >> the biden administration did step in to avert a rail strike, so it would make sense just on the face of it to do the same here. thanks so much for joining us today. appreciate it. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ it's 4:00 in new york. buckle up, things may be coming to a head in special counsel jack smith's classified documents investigation this week with a series of potential developments that suggest that smith could be