donors from 20 states. it is not clear if he gets on the stage. i think he does get on the stage with trump. he can mix it up with him. he had some sort of trump-ish manners of him imitating trump's voice, he sounded like a log ball when doing his trump imitations. he was cracking a lot of jokes. he went after ivanka and jared. that's kind of like a trump move to go after the family even though in this case, it is obviously wholly justified. it would be great to see him on stage with trump, we don't know if we will ever see it. >> michelle goldberg in new hampshire tonight, thank you very much. that is all in on this tuesday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening alex. starts rig>> you have to think,t 40,000 unique donors that christie has? >> i think that is an absolute

possibility. >> right? somehow, by hook or by crook. >> good talker. >> thanks, chris. thank you to you at home for joining us this hour. we start tonight with significant breaking news, the new york times is confirming that mark meadows, donald trump's former chief of staff has testified to a federal grand jury as part of special counsel's jack smith ongoing investigations into trump's mishandling of classified information and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. this is a major development, and we are going to talk about it in just a minute with representative jamie raskin, who served on the january 6th committee. but we start with mar-a-lago. at this point you probably have seen a picture of trump's florida resort, once the winter getaway of areas -- mar-a-lago it is massive. it sits on about 20 acres of land, it has more than 50 bedrooms, and it has all the

hallmarks of luxury. all the fancy stuff. italian stone, spanish tiles, a lot of marble, gold plated fixtures, expensive rugs, it also has a golf course and ballroom. a boutique, and not one, but two swimming pools. here they are. one is by the beach, in front, the other sits right in the middle of basically everything. now, i point these pulls out to you not just because pool envy is a real thing, especially in the summer months, but because these pools, one of these pools is now at the center of a special counsel investigation into trump's handling of classified documents. it is at the center of that for a very weird reason. cnn was the first to report that quote, an employee at donald trump's mar-a-lago residents drained the resort's swimming pool last october, and ended up flooding a room where computer servers containing surveillance video logs were kept.

whether the flooding of the i.t. room where oh, hey, the surveillance video logs are kept, whether that was intentional or just a really unfortunate mistake, we do not know. but we do know the department of justice investigators are very suspicious of the timing here because the flooding took place right around the same time the prosecutors were issuing subpoenas trying to obtain security camera footage from mar-a-lago. again -- the flooding and that subpoena, that was a culmination of a months long battle on the part of the doj. to get its hands on this mar-a-lago camera footage. that subpoena was not the departments first one. not by a long shot. in june of last year, the government officials have been fighting with trump four months to retrieve all the classified documents he had in his possession down at mar-a-lago. so the doj issued is for a

subpoena for security camera footage on june 24th. as a result of that first subpoena, doj officials got some of that security footage and it showed to trump aides, including former violet -- walt not a, and a maintenance worker called carlos the oliveira, it showed those two men moving boxes into a storage room on june 2nd. that was one day before fbi agents were invited down to mar-a-lago to collect documents, which is wow, okay, the timing there. but there were gaps and that security camera footage, which given the circumstances, people moving boxes out of the storage room, that was curious. the department issued another subpoena for the video footage from outside the storage room and it issued that subpoena a few weeks later. while the doj was waiting for this, investigators found that mr. diallo vera, the employee who had been helping move boxes into the storage room, they

found that diallo vera called in mar-a-lago i t worker asking how the security cameras worked and how long images remain stored in the system. just asking for a friend, just wondering. he is the same guy who drained the pool in october, causing a flood where surveillance videos were kept. it keeps popping up when things go wrong. so after the pool flood, jack smith's -- asking the trump organization to preserve all footage, keep it away from all the pools, please. around that same time, in october, mr. nada, the other guy who was involved in all of this, he reportedly changed lawyers and stopped collaborating with investigators. we do not know how his team learned about the pull incident and what other things they spotted on the camera footage that they didn't get. but for months now we've known that all the employees from mar-a-lago have provided their testimony.

so the special counsel probably has a very full picture of what has been going down at mar-a-lago all of these months. and now that team, the special counsel team is presumably evaluating whether all of these incidences, the moving of the boxes, refusal of returning the documents, gaps and the security footage, pool drainage whether these were random events or an orchestrated effort on the part of donald trump and his employees to interfere with this investigation. the latest twist here is the surprise revelation last night that he previously on known, federal grand jury and south florida has started hearing testimony in this case. the new york times reports the grand jury in florida is separate from the one that has been sitting for months in washington. among those who have appeared before the washington grand jury in the past few months or have been subpoenaed by it, people familiar with the investigation said -- more than 20 members of trump's secret service detail.

as for the florida grand jury, which began hearing evidence last month, only a handful of witnesses have testified to it, or are scheduled to appear before it. but at least one witness has already testified, and another is set to testify tomorrow. joining us now is former acting u.s. solicitor general, neil kathy all. he is also in an msnbc legal analyst. neil, thank you for being here to help me understand the theories of this case. i think i had a sense, but first, your thoughts on these two grand juries, and what that signals, how you read those indicators? >> yeah, so jack smith is presenting now what looks like before two grand juries, one in florida and one in washington d.c.. i can tell you the grand jury in florida, the prosecutors there are not there to enjoy the weather. they could have empaneled this grand jury for any number of reasons, and it certainly doesn't mean that trump is going to be charged in florida,

or anything like that. what it means is that they do think that there is evidence of criminal wrongdoing going on in florida, as well as in washington d.c.. up until a few weeks ago, it looked like this case was headed towards jack smith indicting in florida. but donald trump himself made it more likely when he appeared on the cnn town hall and said i made all these classification decisions in washington d.c., and that was music to jack smith's ears. you could have the prosecution going in both places, one for trump in d.c., and others like walt new to, the valet in florida, they could both be brought in one place. it would not shock me if at the end of the day this becomes a conspiracy set of charges, and it all takes place in washington d.c.. >> when you outlined the actions in and around the flooding of the i.t. room by an unsuspecting maintenance worker who also played a role in moving boxes in and out of a storage room, the picture of who else might be implicated in

this scheme down in florida appears to be clear. do you think that, you seem to dismiss the idea that trump could be criminally indicted in florida. the new york times kind of almost made a case for that given all of the action that is convened around trump, and the documents at mar-a-lago. but you sound fairly certain that you think that if jack smith pursues an indictment it will be in washington d.c.. >> it can occur in either place, the justice department will be on very strong footing. it seems like washington dicey, where former president trump's own words as a locus of decision making, so i think that it is going to be there. then with respect to all of this new have evidence that you are talking about emerging, like mark meadows possibly testifying on this, like the flooded pool and so on, all of that maybe hopeful evidence but i think that it is important for viewers to understand that is not the criminal case. the criminal case is helpful but it is just helpful, that means the criminal case has been strong for months. bill barr of all people months

ago said that this was the greatest threat to president trump in terms of criminal jeopardy. that is because we've known so many things for so many months that he had more than 100 classified and other national security documents that were at his country club, he had them even though his attorney swore that he hadn't had them. we know how significant these documents were. nuclear secrets and the like. we knew a federal judge had already said that a crime had been committed here, it was such a serious crime they had to pierce the attorney client privilege. we also knew our nation's second highest court signed off on that ruling, the d.c. circuit. and we also knew about these dress rehearsals that you just mentioned one moment to go. these boxes being moved here and there. so there is so much here, and that is why it may appear breathless, i know that these viewers, we were all talking about this indictment potentially coming this week, that is because the evidence so far looks overwhelming at

donald trump's guilt. >> and i hear what you are saying about the overwhelming evidence that we have thus far, i would assume things like pool drainage would further buttress an obstruction case of that is indeed what jack smith is pursuing, but if we could, could we discuss mark meadows for a minute? because this fellow has been like the white rabbit in alison wonderland, no one has known where he is that. everyone wants to chase him and find out what he has. if he has testified in front of a federal grand jury, presumably he would be testifying about things that he was trying to shield using the claim of executive privilege, is that a fair assessment of what kind of goods he may be giving up behind the scenes? >> certainly not invoking executive privilege and trying not to testify all of those claims went to the supreme court, they rejected it 8 to 1. so he now has to testify. whether he is going to say i forgot, and so on, who knows?

if meadows truly has flipped, i think that everything falls apart for trump even more than it already has, because there is nothing more important than trump completing an unwavering loyalty. and of his own former chief of staff is no longer loyal to him, why would anyone else be? so we've already seen this with some of trump's past chiefs of staff, so the same thing maybe going on here, then with respect to what you started with, the pool, it seems very suspicious like so much else in trump world when it comes to trump, everything is worse than it looks. but i talked to some architects today and they say that no one would ever build an i.t. room -- that just doesn't happen. to be fair to donald trump, maybe he built a house the way that he builds his government, his country, i don't know. but it sure seems suspicious at the end of the day, you are right, it furthers this narrative of an obstruction of

justice by donald trump. it is one thing to steal the documents, it is another thing to lie about it afterwards and try to hinder an investigation. that is why i think jack smith, essentially, has no choice here but to indict donald trump. >> i appreciate that you've been talking to architects, we have been scouring the internet looking for pictures, dimensions of the mar-a-lago pools. so we are in the same boat on that front. one more question for you about jack smith, who met with -- you saw the man in person today, i think he had gone to innocently get a subway sandwich and was spotted by our nbc reporters. he has not said anything on this topic, surprisingly. but he has been -- or he was in the meeting with trump's lawyers yesterday, who have claimed prosecutorial misconduct in the special counsel's probe and demanded a meeting with merrick garland as far as we know, merrick garland didn't attend these meetings. but jack smith appears to be meeting, or has met with trump's lawyers. how do you read that? it's not just an exercise at

the end of an investigation? do you think trump's lawyers will continue to make this case with any success that they were somehow defense lawyers for trump's team, and strong armed by doj prosecutors, investigators in this probe? >> yeah, two things, one strong-arm deng abusive, give me a break. their claim is not the attorney, client privilege was violated here. they made that argument to a very respective trial coal court judge who blew it out the water. then they made it to the d.c. circuit which unanimously blew it out of the water. it was so strong in opinion that trump didn't even try to take it to the u.s. supreme court. i think those claims fall under that. second, i think the meeting with jack smith is important because it does really telegraph at least team trump, things are at the end of the road in this part of the investigation. not january 6th, but the stolen documents about mar-a-lago. because it is kind of a last-ditch move that you make as a defense attorney, i certainly sat in at those

meetings with the justice department at which you go in as a defense attorney, and say the prosecutor, here is why you should not indict and it is your last card to play. the plated, i suspect it is not a very good hand that they had, and that is why i think that jack smith took the meeting, as he should, he doesn't have to, they don't always, but he did take it. i think at the end of the day that will not dissuade anything from happening. >> neil tatiana, good to talk to you. legal wisdom and advice for a state planning and where you should put your i.t. room in relation to your swimming pool. thank, you my friend. >> thank you. >> coming, up we will have even more on this breaking news that former trump chief of staff, mark meadows, has testified to the grand jury. we will get reaction to that from congressman, jamie raskin, who served on the january 6th investigation and was of the lead impeachment manager and former trump's impeachment over the events of january 6th. stay with us. stay with us

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on something that was bothering trump's legal team. the unusual silence from former chief of staff, mark meadows. trump lawyers at that point were totally in the dark about whether meadows was cooperating with special counsel, jack smith to investigations.

one into trump's actions into january 6th, the other one about his handling of classified documents down at mar-a-lago. one trump advisor told cnn that no one really knows what meadows is doing. then last week, it was the new york times picking up on a similar threat. meadows silence has called suspicion and frustration in his orbit. particularly after the revelation that the special counsel has a 2021 recording where trump admits to possessing a classified document during a meeting about mark meadows memoir. according to the times, the existence of the recording opens up new questions, including what role mr. meadows might be playing in providing information to investigators now, for weeks, a central question in trump legal world has been aware in the world is mark meadows and what is he up to? and now, we have an answer, at least a big part of an answer. today, the new york times reports that mr. mark meadows has testified before a federal grand jury. abc news reports that as part

of his testimony, investigators asked meadows about both of the special counsel probes. mar-a-lago in january 6th. in terms of timing we do not yet know when mr. meadows testified, but the bottom line is that we do not know the man who was there for a pivotal meetings leading up to january 6th, a man who was one of trump's representatives at the national archives, as it tried to maintain trump's presidential records, that guy has spoken under oath to a federal grand jury. joining me now is congressman jamie raskin, democrat from maryland, former member of the january 6th committee and the ranking member of the house oversight committee. congressman, thank you so much for being here tonight. as someone who knows the january 6th congressional investigation so well, i wonder what topics were off limits to your committee because mr. meadows was claiming executive privilege, and presumably are not going to be off limits to the special counsel that you would like to know about. >> you will recall that mark

meadows pulled the plug on his participation with the committee when donald trump blew his top, originally meadows turned over thousands of texts and different communications, and we were expecting to have him come in and to pursue it. donald trump put an end to all of that and they made the assertion of executive privilege, which of course we did not accept, because executive privilege does not cover criminal activity. he wasn't acting as a lawyer, so attorney, client privilege did not operate. but in any event, being mark meadows was there from the beginning. he would have been privy to conversations that donald trump was engaged in, about all of his efforts to overthrow the presidential election of 2020. so that would include trying to get vice president pence to

step outside of his constitutional role and to proclaim donald trump the victor, or kick the whole election into the house of representatives for so-called contingent elections. he would be perfectly well aware of, and perhaps integrity of involved in the efforts to get the georgia secretary of state, brad raffensperger, just to find trump thousands of votes that didn't exist. the efforts to get these state legislators to oust the majority is for joe biden, and just substitute slates of donald trump electors. he would have been aware of all of that. he also was clearly privy to the conversations, and the actions surrounding the violent insurrection that took place at the capitol. you will recall that cassidy hutchison quoted mark meadows to the effect of president trump was not trying to stop the ongoing insurrection that

has laid siege to the capital. you will recall some awkward questioning of the white house, counsel pat cipollone where liz cheney said to him was everyone in the white house interested, essentially, and stopping the insurrection? he said yes, i can't think of anybody who wasn't. and then he was asked a question i think by adam shift including the president? and then cipollone said well she was referring to the staff, and she said no, i was referring to anyone in the white house, and he turned nervously to his lawyer to try to determine how he should answer and you just said well, you know, that is covered by attorney client privilege, and i was talking about the staff. so there are clearly people who understand what donald trump's determination and intent were during that three hour period, when the commander-in-chief just went awol. nobody heard from him at the

army. nobody heard from him the navy, marines, the joint chief of staff, the d.c. police, the capitol police, none of it. he was just missing. there are people who know what he was saying, what he was thinking, and what he was doing during that time. one of those people wasn't doubted lee his former chief of staff, mark meadows. >> yeah, when you outlined the number of scenarios where mark meadows played a pivotal role, or was central in the discussions, it becomes clear that any cooperation from mr. meadows is at trump's legal peril. i guess i wonder if you think that is a reason why you are seeing what you are seeing in congress? because it increasingly looks like as the special counsel's probe, the walls of the special counsel investigation grow closer and closer to donald trump, the efforts by his republican allies and congress seem more clearly designed to offer a lifeline to president trump by undermining the investigations themselves. i have to call everybody's

attention to the fact that jim jordan who is the chair of the judiciary committee, today, wrote a letter to a.g. garland demanding an unredacted memorandum outlining the scope of mr. smith's probes, regarding president trump. and any supporting documentation relating to disappointment as special counsel. that seems like this page from the playbook where if you can't be the investigation, investigate the investigators. is that what is happening right now? >> i think that you've got the whole thing. i mean, mark meadows testimony is how lethal peril to trump's legal defense, if meadows tells the truth. and the truth here is really the enemy of the trump defense, which is what is happening in congress, a sustained attack on anyone who dares investigate or prosecute donald trump. we saw it with district attorney bragg in new york,

where they subpoenaed him, they attacked him, they began to rail against him, now they are attacking the department of justice because of the progress of jack smith's special counsel investigation into the multiple crimes that almost certainly were committed by donald trump. so they are going after the prosecutors and now, of course, they are trying to detract everybody by recycling the most anti-claims that had been circulated by rudy giuliani about burisma and ukraine. they say that there is one little factoid they claim that was in this form that the fbi made, where there was a secondhand allegation by a ukrainian oligarch made to an undercover source who passed it on to the fbi. and they want to make that the basis for trying to discredit

the whole fbi. the problem for them is that the attorney general, william barr, who was donald trump's a.g., immediately appointed the u.s. attorney for the western district of pennsylvania, scott brady, to head up a team of prosecutors and fbi agents to fully investigate that tip. and they came back completely empty-handed. and as the fbi senior personnel who came to see us this week in congress explained it to us, there are three levels of an fbi investigation. an assessment level, preliminary investigation, and investigation. they were at the assessment level looking at that tip to determine if there was any factual basis to it. and they could find no sufficient factual basis, even to move to a preliminary investigation. and they just closed the investigation down. and that was the end of it. so now, the republicans in the

house oversight committees say let's go back to that original tip that was the basis for the whole department of investigation set up by william barr, that one from january to august of 2020, and then ended up with nothing, and let's do the whole thing over again. but it is really just an attempt to discredit and undermine the fbi, and get donald trump's poll numbers up again, which is what chairman commerce said it was the measure of the success of his committee. >> that is why they investigated, they want to continue to investigate hillary clinton's role in the 2016 election. congressman jamie raskin, thank you for your time tonight, i really appreciate it. >> you bet. >> still more to come this evening, if you thought indicted congressman george santos was one of the most, shall we say colorful characters in washington d.c. these days, i have news for you. it is coming up.

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something goes wrong there is always someone else at fault, and who has never lost. i have lost, you people did that to me in 2016. i came back to new hampshire to tell all of you that i intend to seek the republican nomination for president of the united states in 2024. >> former new jersey governor, chris christie formally launched his 2024 presidential campaign at a town hall in new hampshire earlier this evening, and he's not the only one jumping into the republican primary pool this week. former vice president, mike pence, is expected to make a formal announcement for the presidency tomorrow after filing campaign paperwork yesterday. so that is one thing that chris christie and mike pence have in common, they both will have announced their 2024 presidential campaigns by the end of this week. there are also two men who had their lives threatened by the former president they once served. in 2021, kristie said it was undeniable that he had gotten

covid from from the year prior, landing him in intensive care for a week, as for pence, there was an angry mob of trump supporters chanting to hang mike pence at the capitol on january 6th. in addition to those two unusual commonalities the campaign and the summons and the life-threatening -- this is also this common thread that they share, it is entirely unclear which republican -- the two presidential campaigns are courting. both of these men are pulling on average for behind donald trump and his nearest competitor, governor ron desantis. mike pence is pulling out just over 4%, chris christie at just 1%. joining me now are the staff writer at the atlantic, and steve kornacki, msnbc national correspondent in eight jacket. thank you both for being here, let me start with you, what is reasonably, emphasis on reasonably be best case scenario from chris christie here. >> i think that it is some form in his mind of redemption,

because back in 2016, if you remember he had the takedown moment of marco rubio in the debate just before the new hampshire primary. it had the effect of basically stealing new hampshire for trump and then christie drops out, endorses trump, and is really aligned with trump through the trump presidency. and the way things and with the trump presidency, first of all christine over got out of that presidency what he wanted. he was consistently blocked. i think jared kushner had a lot to do with that. then it ends with trump denying the 2020 election results it ends with january six, and with christy looking around and saying, i put my neck on the line for this guy so i think that kristie relishes the opportunity. i don't know if he will get it, but you can see from that town hall tonight, he relishes the opportunity to get onstage with donald trump, and say things to donald trump's face in a way that he thinks no republican halves in the eight years said to donald trump to his face. i don't know if he will get that moment but i think that is

what he wants. >> i tend to agree that this is some sort of personal redemption tour. but you have a great interview with christie, and the atlantic from last month, and there is this amazing quote from christie. i will read it to everyone who has not yet read the piece. i will not drill on this, mark, you drive me crazy. all you want to do is talk about trump, i'm sorry, i do not think that he's the only topic to talk about in politics and i'm not going to waste my hour with you this morning on just continuing talking and asking and answering the donald trump question from 18 different angles. this chris christie not realize this is the whole point as a presidential candidate? >> that is absurd, because he then went up to new hampshire and talked about donald trump 1 million different ways. that is what was so bizarre about that interview. but i do think that there is one reason that chris christie is in this race, and that is because he is extremely adept at potentially taking some real shots are donald trump, he knows donald trump better than most, and he's obviously known him for a long time. he's obviously much more nimble,

at least oratory ali in a format like this, and that makes chris christie much more compelling, at least to me than most of the other candidates. i don't think it is likely that chris christie is ever going to have this song healed to the chiefs played for him, and mike pence as well, but i do think that both of them, especially christy, could be a very not just entertaining, but actually a very litigious and very compelling foil to donald trump if this goes forward the way i think it is going to go. >> you alluded, you foreshadow that christine might not actually make it to the stage with donald trump. tell me a bit about the biggest hurdles you see for him qualifying for the debates. >> three things have to happen here for christie to get this moment with trump, if that is what he's looking for. number one, the first republican debate will be the end of august. they say three polls, you've got to hit 1%, and that is either three national polls, or two national and one of the

early state polls. there was a national poll last week, christy was at zero. so in 1%, it is not automatic. then he has got to get 40,000 donations. they could be small donations but he's gotta get donations. 40,000 people have got to give to the campaign. and he's got to -- >> can they all be democrats? >> he has got a shiny pledge that he will back the republican nominee. so -- >> that seems like the highest hill to climb. >> if part of this campaign is disqualifying in his view, disqualifying donald trump, you will simultaneously say that he will support trump as a nominee. but if he does all of that he could do the debate, and then there are two more hurdles. the forces, does trump show up? does trump actually -- because trump may not even debate. then if trump shows up, if enough republicans meet the criteria, because we are seeing more and more get in, they may have two divisions here. they may have two nights, so christy could qualify, trump could participate, and maybe they are just not on the same night. and he still doesn't get the chance. there's a lot that he has to

have go his way. >> there are a lot of hills to climb, and then there is just the reality of the support that christie can get, and kind of make the case for staying in the race. he dropped out after new hampshire in 2016, i think that he spent more than 70 days in the state that he held 160 events and 60 town halls, and he got 7% of the primary vote. i mean, is kristie the kind of guy that is just going to hang in this, to hang in this? he wasn't that guy last time. >> he got to new hampshire. the bulk of the campaign was several months of 2015 where he did get on the stage. i think i agree with steve, it is probably less likely than likely that he will get on the stage with trump, i do think that he doesn't necessarily have to get on that stage, he could give speeches like today and i think that christie's probably going to get more press attention that he would deserve, given how much chance he actually has at winning, which is pretty small. he is really good at drawing

tent presidential, he's very good at one liners, and he does have the feel for himself in terms of someone who actually has -- who has -- but he can actually do things that actually will get attention and actually could get under donald trump skin, with is a real skill, and especially of donald trump comes back at him then you have a real spectacle could draw him some support and certainly -- >> why is mike pence running, steve? >> i think mike pence -- there is a great tradition of former vice president saying i made it this far -- >> i mean, this is a man with an extraordinary back story and not a lot of favor inside the republican party. >> it is interesting, if you look at the poll that came out last weekend you asked republican voters positive, negative view, the least popular was christy. it was 21 favorable, 47 unfavorable. the second least popular is

pence. 46 favorable, but 35% unfavorable. i think pence, when he looks at it, he has always had a strong connection, the reason he was on the ticket, strong connection with evangelical christian voters. you look at iowa, it is a caucus state, it is dominated by evangelical christian voters. trump actually lost iowa in 2016, i imagine if you are pence, you are looking at iowa and wondering is there some way that i can tap into that, that i can get a win in iowa? then they say if i could get a win in iowa, i could roll it into, here and here, and here. it usually doesn't work out but i imagine that is something to do with the calculations. >> there are many reasons to love you, steve kornacki butter even handedness, facing the longest of odds is something to applaud. it is always great to see you. when we come back, a look at the new normal in a post-trump washington d.c.. and that is next. and that is next

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(vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. remember back in 2015 when former republican congressman aaron shock renovated is the sea office of the south at the british period jama downtown abbey? america first learned about the illinois congressman it's amplified -- when the washington post wrote this piece, quote he's got a

downton abbey's part office, but representative erin shotgun talk about. there is a recent that he did not talk about it because he broke congresses rules about accepting a large gift. when he allowed a company called euro trash llc to provide a 40,000 dollar renovation free of charge. he may have also broken the rules of good taste, but that is another matter entirely. the initial report that lead into a flurry of investigations into congressman shock spending habits. ultimately, it was discovered that he spent tens of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money and campaign funds on everything from private jet flights to katy perry tickets. within weeks of that reporting. aaron shock resigned from congress in disgrace. it's different for how things go down now. in the never-ending saga of george santos, last night, the justice department charged george santos with 14 counts of fraud, money laundering and that the public funds. but george santos has that

vastly refused calls for his resignation, even as his case continues to get our ear. just today, his lawyers were in court pleading with the federal judge not to reveal the names of the people who posted sentences half 1 million-dollar bond after his arrest. the judge denied that request and pending a appeal from santa's, we can learn as soon as this week who paid all this money to get george santos out of jail as he awaits trial. but the santa saga is a stunning example of how washington works in a post trump era. before trump, even the hint of a spending scandal could cause and up incoming congressman to resign in this case, but the trump era has created a new model for alleged grifters like george santos. that phenomenon is at the center of a new book by the same writer who first broke the story of aaron shocks downtime at the office. the store is called the big break, the gamblers, party animals and true believers trying to win in washington while america loses its mine.

it, the washington post ben perez writes that washington felt different on the trump. but what about once he left? who was allowed to become powerful, and for where would they draw the power? what were the rules of the game, and out that you? when i wanted to explore these questions by spending time with people who were trying to make post-trump washington work for them. joining me now is washington post writer, terris, author of the big break, which just hit shelves today. congratulations, ben. >> thank you. >> you have survived day one of the book tour. it's a fascinating study of characters. it's all at once damning and slightly hopeful, i would say. but for people that are not familiar at the constitution of interesting personalities to populate washington and lee see in a post trump era, can you tell the story of robert strict? i think he is emblematic at the new generation. >> robert stick is a fascinating character. he's a lobbyist that before donald trump, like this was

never successful -- when donald trump came to town, and there was nobody around prepared to take advantage -- >> that's him. >> that's him. to take advantage of the new normal, strict was able to figure it out. he had this really crazy story about how he was able to come to power and gain millions and millions of dollars under donald trump. the way it started is that he celebrated at the four seasons hotel, and he was a low level trump guy. a dog sniffs his crutch, which is bizarre, and a woman comes and is apologetic about it. it turns out that she was with the museum and pc it is having a difficult time connecting her country donald trump. it is expected that hillary clinton would one. donald trump was hard to get in touch with. robert strzok said, oh, i can do that. >> to this day, he has never met donald trump, is that right? >> he met him one time. he said he met impacts stage, who's doing something with his hair, putting a lot of spray in

his hair. he said he'd met him once, but he does not have a strong connection but enough to make it work. >> make it work to the tune of millions and millions of dollars in lobbying contracts after a dog sniffed his crutch at the four seasons. this is the stuff that you can't make up that is out of a cohen brothers film. this is the new normal in washington, which at one point suggested to me that the institutional bears had broken down. maybe that in and of itself is a good thing, but also, everybody is profiting to the degree that if you like a grift. what is your sense having that the legacy of trump as has shaped my hometown? >> sure, a lot of people can do that and come in. it can be a grift. they can decide that, all right, nobody is here taking a vantage of the new normal, but i can. they consult their access to donald trump. robert district was able to tell enough countries that, look, i can get you access to the people that matter, and then he could.

he had phone numbers that he could connect them. for a country that has billions of dollars being able to spend a couple million to be in touch with a new administration is very valuable. >> part of me says that this is the exit of trump, but i would say come in and being -- a policy makers and leaders and advocates with something that barack obama did. democrats look to that as a good thing. do you see any cross pollination between what happened in the aftermath of the obama years and how trump up on that to some theory and bastardized that? >> i think about the trump era, it got really weird, right? this book is filled with characters. i think about the. you've got your way through it but also think that this is dark, twisted and weird and knock it. i think that is what the book does. it shows that you can laugh your weight to the book and

also realize that things are not in a good place right now. >> right, the way when politics mimics beep, it's distressing at large. ben terris, author of the big break, congrats, it's a great read, and we will be right back. back (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. are you still struggling with your bra?

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very important programming note. tomorrow evening, i will have the pleasure of having my good friends and host at the pot save america podcast, john favrow, -- on this show to discuss everything from a looming potential of a trump indictment to the current state of our democracy. we'll also talk about their ever expanding 2024 gop primary field, so stay tuned, we will not want to miss this one, tomorrow night, nine pm. that does it for us, aussie again tomorrow. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. tonight, we will be joined by senator raphael warnock,