lot of evangelical christians were skeptical of trump, and you know he's going to very much focus on that. top republicans are curious if he can also qualify for the debate stage, we haven't seen mike pence and trump interact since january 6th. people who are skeptical of his chances are very curious to see how that looks. >> the republican field growing as the legal peril seems to grow for the former president. jam-packed "morning joe" starts right now. an indictment is near? >> i suspect it's near. i've said for a while that this is the most dangerous legal risk facing the former president. and if i had to bet i'd bet it's

near. >> you believe there's enough evidence? >> they won't indict if there's enough evidence. >> former attorney general bill barr reiterating his belief that the former president is likely to be indicted for refusing to return classified materials. the latest developments connected to the mar-a-lago documents. this comes as a key witness in multiple investigations into donald trump, finally gives testimony to a grand jury. meanwhile, chris christie officially jumps into the 2024 race for the republican nomination, we'll on show you his pitch to voters and what he had to say about his past support for donald trump. also ahead, a republican revolt in the house, we'll explain why a group of far-right lawmakers intentionally tanked a couple of gop-led bills.

and we have the latest on two major stories tied to the war in ukraine, the flooding caused by a destroyed dam and what we're learning about last week's drone attacks in moscow. plus, a merger that has stunned the sports world. we'll explain the significance of the deal cut between the pga and the liv tours. joe, i have been getting quite a tutorial in what has happened here from our crew here in the washington studio, lot of strong feelings about the liv golf merger, if you can call it a merger, some don't. >> well, our billion-dollar buyout. you know, willie, i think people -- the clips people are seeing, james mon hahn the guy who when pga golfers went out and started to playing for the

saudis and liv he was talking about how badly he felt for 9/11 families because his very strong implications it was the saudis completely responsible for september 11th and how could they and no pga players had to be ashamed of playing with the pga and then yesterday, he turns around, cue the "the love of money." yesterday, what he's doing, they're saying, respected business partners, something like that, you talk about a radical turn, it was just naked materialism yesterday. >> those 9/11 families ripping jay mon hahn he's joined forces with the liv tour. this was framed over the last two years as moral question, how could you possibly go play for saudi arabia knowing where the money comes from, knowing where

that money goes? and the players, like rory mcilroy, third ranked player in the world who stood with the pga tour, who ripped guys he know went to the liv tour, who framed it morally, and the pga tour led by its commissioner let him and other players go out and sent him and many other players to do their bidding, to defend the pga. you'll never have to be ashamed to play here. tiger woods did that. they all took this stance and without the consultation of any of those players the pga joined forces with liv. many players finding out in a tweet. they were in business with saudi arabia. >> there's no excuse for him to do it the way he did.

talking about tiger woods, i think tiger passed up $780 million, three-quarters of a billion dollars to do the right thing, to do the right thing, to stay with the pga and, then, you know, this morning, mika, i'm sure tiger is thinking, the pga stabbed in his back, 780 million times. >> it will be fascinating to see the fallout from this. but at will of strong feelings about as we continue to talk about this throughout the show. let's bring in the panel. we have katty kay is with us, and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, an nbc news legal analyst and also with us, the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. we're learning new details this

morning about the two separate grand juries looking into former president donald trump's handling of classified documents after leaving the white house. first, nbc news has learned roughly two dozen secret service agents have been subpoenaed or have appeared before the federal grand jury in washington, d.c., they say the testimony took place in the past few months, meaning, not recently as the grand jury has been on hiatus, at the same time, "the new york times" reports a previously unknown federal grand jury in miami, florida, started hearing testimony in the classified documents case last month. and only a handful of witnesses have testified or are scheduled to appear. that includes one witness set to testify today. the paper cites people familiar with the grand jury's workings on this.

"the new york times" also reports the existence of two grand juries suggests that prosecutors are considering bringing charges in both washington and florida. big news, willie. >> while all that's going on, trump's former white house chief of staff, sources terrell abc news that mark meadows answered questions in both the probe into trump's handling of classified documents and his alleged effort to stay in power after losing the 2020 election. meadows was with trump leading up to the january 6th insurrection. last year he turned over hundreds of text messages to the house committee investigating in the attack.

in a statement the times, an attorney of meadows wouldn't confirm that he testified. but quote, meadows has maintained the commitment to tell the truth where he has the legal obligation to do so. chuck, not surprising that mark meadows offered testimony given he was at the middle of everything as the chief of staff to donald trump, given what we know about how close he was to the january 6th attack, to the attempt to overturn the 2020 election, everything we heard in that house committee, from people who worked around him, what do you expect that he was asked yesterday? >> prosecutors would want to speak with mr. meadows primarily because he had proximity to the president, he was with him at the end of mr. trump's term in office. he knew what he was thinking,

they obviously must have discussed things going on around the white house. like, the election and its outcome. probably knows a good bit about the classified information. at the very least, how mr. trump routinely would treat classified information. i imagine prosecutors would want to know whether there's any standing declassification order something that mr. trump has hinted at over the last several months. the most important witnesses in cases like this are people with proximity to the subject of the investigation. mark meadows has proximity to mr. trump. >> joe? >> chuck, what do you make of the miami grand jury in. >> this reminds me of a science experiment that we did in grade school, get something in a box and shake it and turn it upside-down and try to figure out what's inside without

opening it. parallel charges, other defendants, it could moon as the government has learned more about this particular investigation, they believe may be more appropriate in florida than washington d.c. it could mean, less likely, it was done for the convenience of a witness or two who weren't able to travel to washington, d.c., that happens occasionally, but that's rear, it's one of those things most likely but it's the black box from grade school. >> we learned from the january 6th hearings from following the news, a lot of information to share. the question is, how do we know if he shared it, was he perhaps compelled to share it? he had access to a lot of

information to a lot of the information that could potentially damage the president. >> much of what he knows was in the documents he already gave to investigators but i think what's interesting about this grand jury in florida, and what looks to be wrapping up the grand jury in washington, is that we're fairly close to a decision by the prosecutor to potentially charge former president trump and we're hearing that increasingly that this is perhaps weeks away, of course things take a lot longer as chuck knows. it looks like the investigation is wrapping up. so, plus, they need to move quickly because there's the georgia investigation, and then of course there's the january 6th investigation, as we have talked about the former

president is potentially facing three more indictments even before the election. >> joe? >> it's lining up like traffic over laguardia. former attorney general bill barr actually is talking about and taking on donald trump for his handling of the classified documents after leaving office. trump's former a.g. who i really thought personally defended him shamelessly for years. is not doing it anymore. this is what he said yesterday about the investigation and whether it was in the words of donald trump, a witch-hunt. >> based on the facts, as the facts come out, i think over time people will see that this is not a case of the department of justice you know conducting a witch-hunt. they approached this very delicately and deference to the

president. the question is, did he deceive them? if there's evidence of that, i think people will start to see this says more about trump than the department of justice, that is, he's so egotistical he has this pension of committing reckless act to show that he can get away with it, asserting his ego and he's done this repeatedly at the expense of the people who depend on him to conduct business in an honorable way. we saw that with both impeachments. >> around the time barr was giving that interview former president trump unleashed a series of posts on social media saying he did nothing wrong, et cetera. slamming the doj's investigation against him as election interference. so, katty, predictable response

from donald trump here. we have heard it from people close to him, like attorney general bill barr, has said if he's the nominee who will still vote for him against joe biden. put all this together if you can, lot of people watching this morning to sort through where the peril is, the most immediate peril for donald trump in. >> the most immediate peril is the mar-a-lago case the simplest one, perhaps not the ones who are trying to prosecute donald trump on other charges. it maybe not the most serious. january 6th perhaps the most serious. georgia as well. that looks like that's further off. mar-a-lago looks like that's the one closing in the fastest.

a pretty clear case of obstruction. one question i would have perhaps for chuck, if i may, that box you're shaking around in grade school, do we know where mark meadows went, was he questioned not only on mar-a-lago but on january 6th. >> it sounds like he was being questioned on both. that's logical because he was there for both. to your point it's really hard to know what prosecutors are aiming at right now. i also think something you said, i want to get back to it, i always thought if you're going charge a former president that you have to have really compelling evidence, number one, of a really serious crime. in my mind january 6th is a serious as it gets, because it's an attempt to undermine the democratic processes of the

united states. not to say the classified documents isn't important, it is. the obstruction makes it more so. in my mind the january 6th election interference the insurrection, trying to thwart the transition of power to a new president has always been in my view about the most serious thing a president can do to his own country. >> jonathan, as we always say, you wrote the book on january 6th, you wrote it on the big lie, i'm curious about this, we hear about this sliding scale, if you look at the indictments coming at donald trump the manhattan's d.a.'s the weakest. the most serious is the january 6th insurrection and we're seeing one defendant after another defendant plead guilty for rioting, for trying to overthrow the government, for committing seditions, against

the united states of america. i'm just curious from your research, also from what you're hearing now, is the justice department getting closer to having a workable case on january 6th, because it does seem like the documents case, from everything i'm hearing, you know, they're going to indict him, it's going to be a clean, simple indictment. january 6th obviously a lot more complicated, a lot more sprawling but then again a lot of americans believe if there's going to be justice for all these other people who committed violent attacks against police officers and attacked the capitol, then the person that's running that conspiracy, well, he needs to face justice as well. you can't throw a bunch of working-class and middle-class people in jail for conspiracy to commit sedition against the

united states without having somebody running that conspiracy, can you? >> right, we know that hundreds of people involved on january 6th rioting at the capitol have already been charged, tried, in many cases convicted. this question, whether trump will follow them? that's the assessment, the most serious of the investigations into him and also probably the hardest to prove. what i'm hearing from people close to the former president, yes, that's the concern, too. it's going slower, that's something that jack smith could bring charges on, likely would be further down the road as opposed to the mar-a-lago documents case, but still very possible and that would be perhaps the political death knell for trump. as she's been shrugging off these other investigations at least so far. chuck, one more question for you.

secret service agents testifying, well, they also have proximity to the president, very aware of his actions and whereabouts about what he's doing. that florida grand jury, another theory that was posed to me that might connected to an associate of trump, that trump himself the grand jury, the washington-based one is looking into the actions of the former president. >> if somebody committed acts only in florida, even if it's connected to a broader scheme, someone who followed mr. trump's instructions to obstruct justice or to conceal evidence would be appropriately tried.

so absolutely a possibility. remains to be seen. i'll say one other thing, jonathan, i don't know which case is moving quicker, it appears to be the documents case but when defense attorneys request a meeting at the department of justice to make a pitch that their client ought not to be charged you know you're closer to the end than the beginning. meanwhile, some new faces in the race to challenge donald trump, former new jersey governor chris christie officially is running for president. the republican made the announcement last night during a town hall in new hampshire. in his speech he described the state of american politics and blasted donald trump. >> a lonely, self-consumed, self-serving mirror hog. is not a leader. the person i'm talking about

who's obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, who always finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong but finds every reason to take credit for anything that goes right. is donald trump. it's not amusing anymore, it's not entertaining anymore. it's the last throes of a bitter, angry man who wants power back for himself. not for you. >> so, joe, chris christie representing the voice of the exhausted republican perhaps saying it's not funny anymore. it's time to move on and try to give some of those voters a place to go, big focus on new hampshire for him, he thinks that's the place he could do best. he didn't do great in 2016 when he ran. what's your take on christie in the race now in. >> new hampshire was the site of that february 2016 debate where

he ended marco rubio's chances to win the nomination and that was just one debate, that was his focus in that one debate. you do get the sense that chris christie's mission, it may be to win the nomination and be the president of the united states. you get a sense here that chris christie's march to victory is straight through donald trump and it's political annihilation, that's his goal, total war, and what i suspect, what marco rubio saw in one debate, donald trump is going to be seeing this entire campaign. does that move the needle? i don't know. i was thinking yesterday, elizabeth, chris christie actually -- chris christie, a former prosecutor, this is a guy

that can actually take the case not only about donald trump's failings as a president and politician straight to the voters but also the federal indictment that's coming, it seems he's lined up perfectly taking it to the voter. let me tell you, i did this for years, i prosecuted for years, let me tell you why he's wrong and donald trump's wrong and why he's not fit to be president, maybe christie's able to carry that message that's stronger than anybody could in 2016. >> maybe. everyone's going to ask, where have you been the last number of years when you were endorsing donald trump, supporting him, talking about becoming his chief of staff in it's a complete u-turn, hard for some voters to take. he's appealing to that dwindling

number of republicans who are fed up with donald trump and need someone else, but again, it's going to be trump will eviscerate him, we shall see, he's interesting to watch. he's not a boring candidate. he's lively. he's smart. he knows his stuff. i wonder how he'll do in the current republican party. >> this was a stronger start than we have seen, this was going right to the heart of the matter. i can't disdegree with one thing he said. lot of people feel that way about donald trump. i'm not sure it's the base. some members of trump world or trump supporters who are tiring of it and i think chris christie can be that voice. katty, i think he absolutely as joe pointed out, as a prosecutor to meet trump where he is and to fight hard, possibly even dirty,

but my god, that's going to be the question at least in a general, where in the world were you like when the country was melting down over covid? where in the world were you and you can do a long list of things that happened right when he was in there by trump's sietd that he said nothing. >> that would be a critique of him that i imagine comes from the press. the other candidates running against donald trump they may not to raise that. he may get a pass from the other candidates on why weren't you criticizing trump earlier? i think more than the prosecutorial skills he has the temperament. >> waiting a long time for this. >> i spoke to him a year ago, it was pretty evident in the conversation i had with him that

he was waiting to fight trump and he wants to fight trump and he relishes fighting trump. they want to take fighting on in a fight. chris christie wants to fight trump. i haven't seen a candidate, even in 2016, a candidate who relished a fight with trump. none of the republicans did and i don't see any of the other republicans in this field. >> katty's exactly right. that's what separates chris christie from everyone else. everyone's being polite running against donald trump. a sliding scale for all republicans. you can say the same thing about people, you know, james madsen

went to help donald trump. chris christie did is same. early on in 2020 it was christie who started quietly telling people in march and april, he said donald trump is trying to set this election up, talking about how it's going to be a rigged election, he's already trying to, you know, talk about mail-in balloting and everything else, in march of 2020 that this was his plan to try and steal the election from joe biden. again, yeah, he was there. he was there all along. i'm not carrying, you know, his water when i say this, the way i look at this republican field is, it's donald trump against the field. and people have been trying the figure out how does donald trump get beaten? i think with chris christie

being the lead prosecutor gives the field a 50/50 chance. if donald trump i don't want this guy going around all the time talking about payoffs to porn stars all the things that christie is going to be talking about. >> he knows how to get media attention. the question is, jonathan, if that matters in this big field and if it matters against donald trump? he finished in sixth place in 2016 in new hampshire. i guess what he can do and remains a long shot, like a lot of these candidates is to inject into the conversation, these issues, donald trump's history as a lot of other candidates don't want to do. >> i was struck yesterday, he really went after trump's

family, after ivanka trump and jared kushner calling them grifters. there's a backstory there with kushner in particular. he's going somewhere that other candidates have been afraid to do so. it will be a balance. his stated mission is to become the gop nominee, he's a long shot. he's not playing in iowa, only playing in new hampshire, he's polling in the single digits. some in the gop, never trumpers who want christie put on the political suicide vest, if it's not me make sure it's not trump either. >> the other thing, you're right, he's very good at earned media. he'll do a ton of interviews. the best time to take on donald trump is on debate stage. very strict guidelines that the

rnc put in place to make it. still ahead, another revolt against house speaker kevin mccarthy from within his own party. as right-wing members block a pair of gop bills in response to the debt ceiling deal. also ahead, could florida governor ron desantis face criminal charges in california. we'll explain that, plus more on yesterday's stunning golf merger. and the comments from pga tour commissioner jay mon hahn that have critics calling him a hypocrite. we're -- you're watching "morning joe" we'll be right back. "morning joe" we'll be right back

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♪♪ i've talked at the player meeting and i've talked to a number of players individually for a long period of time and i think you have to be living turned a rock to not there are significant implications and as it relates to families of 9/11, two families close to me that lost loved ones. my heart goes out to them. i'd ask any player who has left or any player that would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour? >> lot of people have been reading about the tension and that we've talked a lot and i said previously that we were going down our path and they were going down theirs, and today that tension goes away,

the litigation is dropped, we're announcing to the world that on behalf of this game, we're coming together, and it's less about how people respond today and it's all about how people respond in ten years. >> that's pga tour commissioner jay monahan exactly a year apart. last year compared to yesterday about the league's position about liv. the pga tour said it has agreed to merge with liv into a yet to be named for-profit company. let's bring in president of council of foreign relations. guys, good morning.

mike, i'll start with you. how'd you like to be rory or tiger woods this morning having on principle passed up $400 million, in tiger's case $800 million to join liv standing out publicly for the pga tour only to find out they're maing a deal behind your back. >> imagine how much sports comes back, yesterday i was lying, today i'm telling the truth. jay is going to have a hard time explaining to those players you remain loyal to us and we'll take care of you, literally one year apart, he said that stuff, and this is also mob like to me. the old line from god father it's not per personal strictly business. jay went to the people he said he hated, yesterday, for money,

and there's the big many this case, his personal reputation, i believe it might not happen next week but monahan is through. >> foreign policy and golf what did you make of that announcement? we thought about the guys who went out there or put out there by the pga tour in the last 12 months to defend the pga and to rip some of their friends who went and played for liv? >> that's awkward confrontations that remain. i'd also say this was an inevitable. once the president went to the saudi arabia, given the deep pockets saudi arabia, given the players who defected, this reminds me of the old nfl/afl,

at first you fight and then you merge. it happened quietly and quickly than i thought. lot of unhappy players, i get it, it's not 100% done yet. only a question of when not if e this was going to happen. >> in this case, mike, you actually, you said something a second ago that jay monahan went from saying he didn't like the saudis to now working with him, no, no, it's so much worse than that, monahan accused the saudis of killing 3,000 americans on september 11th. he did, look at his words. his defense of the pga tour is wrapped around the idea we're not going to be bed with the

people who killed 3,000 americans. on september 11th. and yesterday, he's calling them great business partners. i got a feeling, mike, monahan, he doesn't care if he gets fired tomorrow, everybody's getting rich on this deal. everybody's getting rich. again, i don't know how you go from calling them terrorists to great business partners. >> yeah, you can't call this the simply the nfl/afl merger, because this has a global context, and listen, i know sports doesn't get to take any high ground. in this case, in this case, you saw how the 9/11 families went right after monahan yesterday. it's going to be tough for him

to walk away from and for all of the talk about truth and beauty and these two warring factions united, okay, the way i look at this, the crown prince bought himself the pga tour yesterday and the other context here is this, i think the pga tour was worried about discovery and these antitrust suits as the saudis were i don't think they had the deep foxes compete legally. the saudis will play the long game here. the pga tour couldn't do it. joe, i don't how cash-strapped they are, spending away on purses to try to keep up with the saudis. >> yes, sports is always about money, rarely so blatant.

we now have a foreign entity partnering with a u.s. sports. the saudi perspective, part of this soft power game, they also bought christinian owe ronaldo and lionel messi may be heading that way, too, so much of a success they have this influence, they get this blessing from a u.s. entity, at the same time they just said they're going to slash oil production so prices can rise. >> when they did slash oil production prices haven't risen. this is about the crown prince. essentially telling younger saudis i can give you a better future. it has more to how it plays in

saudi. he's basically that sale here. the charges are real, particularly on khashoggi, there's no gray, that's black and white. women still have real difficulties in saudi. anyone who wants to initiate their political efforts that's not allowed in saudi arabia. 9/11's a little bit more complicated. the 9/11 commission said there was no direct evidence of official saudi involvement in it. there's no illusions here about what the partnership is. saudi arabia sent the message we're here to say. president biden used the word pariah, but saudi is here to

stay. >> fascinating, jonathan was talking about rock concerts, ronaldo, they bought newcastle. when you buy the professional golfers association you're taking it to a new massive level. like this is a whoa, i mean, yeah, i will say this, for everybody hyperventilating, there are a few of us here, let's see, two of us here, richard and mike, that are old enough to remember when the japanese bought pebble beach in the late '80s and everyone was hyperventilating. everybody get a paper bag out and breathe deep. we don't know if the saudis are going to be here forever. we know that the pga is run by a bunch of hypocrites and you

can't underline this enough, a year ago were accusing the saudis of being behind the killing of over 3,000 americans on september 11th. >> joe, you're right. if it walks like a hypocrite and it quacks like a hypocrite it's a hypocrite. >> i get your point. a couple of words off there. you talked about newcastle, you talked about ronaldo. the crown prince bought himself a pga tour commissioner yesterday. that's what really happened. >> yeah, no doubt about it. mike, thank you so much. we should mention mike has another book coming out, he writes books like i drink sweet tea, he's got another best-selling book out with james patterson titled "12 months to live." should go to top of the list. it's due out this september. mike lupica, thank you so much

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experts say the explosion that destroyed a critical dam in southern ukraine most likely was deliberately set off from the inside. "the new york times" cite energy experts an attack from the outside of the dam is possible but quote less triggered massive flooding an endangered thousands living downstream. the national police say 23 towns and villages have flooded. and u.s. intelligence says leaning toward russia being behind the attack according to two u.s. and one western

official. so richard let's talk first about the dam and why it is so critical and why it might have been attacked whoever did it. u.s. intelligence believes it was russia. but why that is such a central important place in this war. >> what it clearly does is distracts what ukraine wants to do, if it wants to focus on launching the so-called offensive, this makes it much more difficult. tens of thousands of people are directly affected. and it is somewhat related to providing cooling for the into nunk clear power plant. all the logic points to russia doing this. they control the area so they had access inside the machinery. >> and this taking place at the beginning of the counteroffensive we've been hearing about for months and months perhaps as a way for russia to slow that, what is the state of that counteroffensive?

people hear that term, they hear it is coming, what does it mean and what difference will it make. >> it is a hard question to answer. it is not as though a counteroffensive is a single event or a single moment. you to all sorts of probes. we'll probably have a better sense of it once it is under way. indeed it is possible that the ukraine military haven't quite decided where they will concentrate. my guess is that you probe certain places and you find out where you have the greatest opportunities. but what is true strategically ukraine is under pressure to show some significant gain. and they have a few months to do it. this fighting season. and so whatever you call it, however you describe it, and in a few months either ukraine will be controlling a lot more of the territory of its own country or not. an either way, that will have all sorts of implications. >> an let's get your ass -- assessment of a few recent

reports of the operation condition russia. the drone attacks may have been targeting russian intelligence officials. doesn't mean like they had much success. and also reporting that the ukrainian government was plotting to throw up the nord stream pipelines. they didn't carry through that operation but later a pro ukraine group did. an how -- what is your take on ukraine's frankly being a little more aggressive into russia and what the u.s. response has been? >> the u.s. apparently knew that ukraine or some ukrainian entity was planning an attack on the in other words in other words stream pipeline for several months. but you're right, there is too much going tostream pipeline for several months. but you're right, there is too much going to to plan the attack. i think they want the russian people puts heat on vladimir putin to potentially think -- rethink the entire war against ukraine. i'm not sure it will work that way. always dangerous.

it feeds putin's narrative that they are on the defensive, there could be a rally around the flag approach. but i would think that is the ukraine calculation that if we can take the war to russia, that will get some russians to put pressure on putin to rethink the war against us. >> and elisabeth bumiller, just in the last couple days some republicans say it might be time to re-evaluate america's support for ukraine. >> that's right. and i was going to ask richard, what do you think of the shifting white house strategy, the shifting red line of joe biden who starts out with no f-16s, no tanks, he says no and then he says yes, yes, yes. in the early days of the war, they were so afraid of being too tough, going -- having the ukraines strike inside russia. so how do you assess the white house shifting approach to this war which happens seemingly

weekly now. >> you're right, the administration has been debating itself from the get-go. i think there was a concern that if we did certain things, it could trigger russia and quote/unquote he is came ligs and possible nuclear use. and that seems to have reseized. i think you now the administration is saying let's give ukraine what it wants. if ukraine can regain its territory, good. if we give them everything and they can't, then it sets up the situation for a new phase of u.s. strategy which obviously involves diplomacy. but i think the administration has made something of a turn on that after debating with itself for 15 or 16 months. you are seeing something somewhat different. >> all right. richard, thank you very much for being on this morning. and elisabeth bumiller. joe, jump in. >> yeah, i was going to say, i have a question for elisabeth now. >> i know you do. >> so let us know, okay, we

should have asked about donald trump in relation to liv which is actually -- what is so funny about this, alex got in my ear and he said you have to talk about trump and -- i of course forgot because, well, you know, i'm like dora -- who is -- dory? i don't remember anything anything but you do. so tell us how donald trump is so happy about this liv/pga uniting. >> thank you for asking. we had great reporting from eric lipton this morning about how much this benefits donald trump the merger of the pga and liv. he has been complaining for years now that all of his -- that the pga has basically shut him out of tournaments at his golf courses. he's been very bitter about it. it got worse after january 6 when he was really ignored. and kept on the outside.

but liv had many tournaments at his golf courses and he predicted a year ago this this would happen. so it benefits him financially and his golf courses and helps him with his base as he runs for president. >> and of course he needs good news, doesn't he, because let's look at his truth social posting again. poor guy still can't fix his all-caps problem here. we really need to chip in and get him a new phone. >> i think that we still have a moisture problem as mika pointed out down in mar-a-lago. i think it was that pool grain draining that was the problem. and i think that he is actually very calm and just wants to write in not caps, i'm sure he would like to say something nice and soft and flowery. but the caps is coming out shouty and so unlike him. >> it is unfair. all right. and washington bureau chief for the "new york times" elizabeth

bumiller. thank you so much. and still ahead, we'll show you what trump's former attorney general is saying with a potential indictment. ment the subway series is elevating your favorite subs. why mess with the sweet onion teriyaki, chuck? man, this aint messin', it's perfectin'! with marinated chicken and double cheese. sweet and savory... ...kinda like you and me, chuck. bye, peyton. try the refreshed favorites at subway today. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, bye, peyton. but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good.

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and fini was hit by a carse could band needed help. ♪ call one eight hundred, i called the barnes firm.n that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is let our injury attorneys know he how much their accident cget the best result possible. i think based on the facts as facts come out, i think over time people will see that this is not a case of the department of justice, you know, conducting

a witch hunt. in fact they approach this had very delicately and with deference to the president and this would have gone nowhere had the president just returned the documents. but he jerked them around for a year and a half and the question is did he deceive them. if there is evidence of that, i think people will see that it says more about trump than it does the department of justice. and that is that he is so ego tis it i cal that he has this pension for conducting risky reckless acts to show that he can sort of get away with it. it is part of asserting his ego. and he's done it repeatedly at the expense of all the people who depend on him to conduct the public's business if an honorable way. and you know, we saw that with both impeachments. and there is no excuse for what he did here. >> wow. there you have bill barr going from roy callan to joe friday just like that. >> he's not the onlien would.

>> undercutting donald trump's most common claims about the investigation into the documents at mar-a-lago. plus new reporting on the role mark meadows had in the handling of classified materials. this as trump's former chief of staff is finally giving testimony to a grand jury. and willie, also news we won't report on this morning, but it after running through a wall, super man is on the injured reserve list. >> yeah, aaron judge, yankees superstar, on the injured list. he made an incredible catch over the weekend in los angeles where he just put on a show in the field, at the plate. here is the play. he barrels through the bullpen fence, made a great catch, but turns out he jammed his toe. he has been evaluated and we hoped that he would just miss a few games, but turns out it is always worse than that and will be on the injured list hopefully not for too long. the yankees are amazing, they

are playing pretty well. they have the fifth best record in baseball and yet they are in third place in their own division. >> rays an orioles showing no signs of cooling off. judge will now miss the first yankees red sox series of the year which is this weekend in the bronx. and red sox fans will miss him. but, yeah, yankees keep winning. they did lose last night. game played in an intense haze, incredible smoke here in new york city. because of the canadian wildfires. and some questions about whether or not they could play, and they did, but it had an eerie look. it was difficult for some people to breathe. >> yeah, it was wild last night. it truly in manhattan and across the city smelled like a campfire everywhere you went. the entire city shrouded in a haze oig. still is this morning. that is all from canadian wildfires coming south. their who wildfire season ever up in canada.

and so we may see more of this. >> and two words for you. blame canada. creators of south park were right all along. and you know, willie, also just sad news out of baseball. and i mean this. jacob degrom, one of the great pitchers in this era when he is healthy, a couple years ago had really the best start that i've seen. and he was just so electric. every time he went to the mound, actually the first time in the middle of the week that everybody would stop to watch baseball that really loved the sport. once again he is going to be out the next six months. tommy johns surgery. he is a good guy. he is incredible athlete. but, man, the injuries just keep piling up. >> yeah, generational talent now with the texas rangers formerly of the new york mets. and so mets fans love him.

such a great pitcher. but as understand, tommy johns surgery and he will be done for the season. and you do worry about his career. >> maybe more than this season. tommy johns surgery could be a year plus. he is also 35 years old. this is his second tommy johns surgery so guys don't bounce back as well. it is such a shame. i know there are a lot of mets fans who feel like they may have dodged a bullet, he signed this massive contract with the rangers. going to be paid $35 million this year and now not to pitch. but just tough for the game when someone who is is this good is hurt. so you have to wonder if his career is in jejeopardy. and for us in washington, the air quality is also impacted. joe, last night i thought i was burning something. i mean, who would think that i would burn anything.

but it was -- i do tend to leave the stove on. >> i got outside this morning and i thought where are the fire engines because there might be a fire going on somewhere. i've had this nagging cough and it is this. poor canada, poor us. >> long range here. to our top story, we're learning new details about the two separate grand juries, two separate ones looking into former president trump's handling of classified documents after leaving the white house. first nbc news has learned roughly two dozen secret service agents have been subpoenaed or have appeared before the federal grand jury in washington, d.c. that is according to two sources familiar with the matter. they say that the testimony took place in the past few months meaning not recently as the grand jury has been on hiatus. at the same time, the "new york times" reports a previously

unknown federal grand jury in miami, florida started hearing testimony in the classified documents case last month. and only a handful of witnesses have testified or are scheduled to appear. that includes one witness set to testify today. the paper cites people familiar with the grand jury's workings. meanwhile donald trump's former white house chief of staff has reportedly testified before a grand jury hearing evidence in the justice department's investigations into the former president. sources tell abc news mark meadows answered questions in both the probe into trump's handling of classified documents and the investigation into his alleged efforts to stay in power after losing the 2020 election. this is a big deal. meadows was with trump in the weeks leading up to january 6, the insurrection on that day. and stayed with the administration until its end. last year he turned over

hundreds of text messages to the house committee investigating the attack before he decided to stop cooperating. willie. >> throughout the reporting for the "times" that broke the story, now michael schmidt is joining us. as we said, no surprise mark meadows is the surprise of this investigation because he was at the right hand of donald trump in both of the cases we're talking about, the 2020 election and classified documents at mar-a-lago. do we have any sense for the questions he was asked or why he was brought in there and what specifically they wanted to know from him? >> so we've spent a lot of time in the past few months trying to understand what happened with meadows. because his profile has sort of shrunk in trump's world. we know that to your point that he was in the room for huge matters on both of these

investigations. so we spent time has he gone in, has he gone in, what has happened. and in the course of learning about him going in, i sort of remembered that there is something distinct about meadows from the rest of the witnesses that we're seeing here. that is that the january 6 investigation never heard from meadows. he refused to cooperate with them. so while we have a pretty good sense about what many of the witnesses would say, you know, certainly someone like cassidy hutchison, we really don't know what meadows knows. we have a sense from the january 6 investigation of when he was in the room and for what events. we have a sense from the public reporting on the documents investigation about his researchers meeting with trump when he apparently on that audio recording referenced a classified document in his hand. but we don't have pages and

pages and pages of questions and answers from help because he refused to cooperate with the january 6 investigation. >> and he refused to sit and talk with them even before he did that, he gave over texts, email, reams and reams of them to the house committee. and the house committee said those serve as a roadmap for their investigation. and so they do have some sense of what he knew and when he knew it and now he is actually sitting and talking to a special counsel/prosecutor. >> they have a roadmap, you are right. we were laughing about how he was cooperating and basically gave them a treasure trove of documents, helped provide that roadmap. and then donald trump criticizing, so he started criticizing the committee, he puts out a book. donald trump criticizes his book. he goes yeah, my book is fake news. but despite all the gesturing, michael, he may not have testified before the january 6 committee and we may not know

what he said, about but the feds certainly do. the production to the january 6 committee, production to the fed, don't you think they have a pretty good roadmap of where they wanted to go with him yesterday? >> yeah, certainly. and the january 6 investigation gives them that blueprint to get found. but with any witness you don't have a full appreciation of everything that they know until you have them under oath. and to me, this was just another basic but important demonstration of the power of the special counsel's office and powers that come with a criminal investigation, how that allows investigators to get to things that congressional investigators were stymied to get to. and it shows also the power of a special counsel's investigation when the person under the investigation is not the president of the united states.

the special counsel's office has gone after this in an aggressive way that does differentiate it from the mueller investigation and certainly from any other justice department investigation when trump was in office. so it is a significant step forward. it is an obvious one. meadows is someone that everyone wanted to talk to and any investigator would want to hear from before they made a major decision. nevertheless, still sort of a remarkable development. >> and let's underscore how close meadows was to trump. when trump got covid, meadows traveled with him in the helicopter to walter reed. and he was there at january 6 and he remained in the administration after january 6. and he also played a role with classified documents and communicating with the national archives. so tell us as of that piece of the puzzle, this is not just

about january 6, it is also about the classified material. >> meadows remains someone important in trump's orbit in the months after he leaves office. as we know from the saga of the documents investigation, that is when the back and forth begins with the national archives about trying to get those documents back. and meadows had a role for trump in dealing with the national archives. and as we know, part of the investigation that is looking at the documents is looking at the question of not only was there obstruction of the justice department, but was there obstruction of the national archives. and was there attempts to stop these documents from going back to the national archives, did they know, did trump know, did trump's people know at the time that he had these classified documents. certainly if they are looking at the retention of them, he had them in the period of time. this all culminates with the 15

boxes initially going back to the national archives about a year after trump leaves office. and as we've seen play out in all of the search warrant of mar-a-lago and all the other disclosures, there are so many other documents that he holds on to even after the 15 boxes go back. so if you are looking at trying to understand how is it that there was this humongous effort to hold on to these materials and to mislead the government, you need to know what meadows knew. and starting all the way back from his time in the white house to how were these materials -- why were they in the residence, how were they packed up, how did they know they were going to mar-a-lago, how were they handled. meadows is a central person in that. >> washington correspondent michael schmidt as always, thank you very much for your reporting.

california governor newsom tells nbc news he plans to launch an investigation into flights of migrants flown from new mexico to sacramento which were orchestrated by florida governor ron desantis saying that he believes that it is clear that crime was committed. florida officials confirmed the desantis administration organized two flights to fly migrants from new mexico to sacramento. in a statement released yesterday, florida's division of emergency management said, quote, through verbal and written consent, these volunteers indicated they wanted to go to california. the statement included this video of migrants allegedly on their way, about three dozen migrants were ultimately relocated. they said that they were recruited for the trip outside of a shelter in el paso, texas. several said that they were promised help finding work.

here is what california governor newsom told nbc's jacob soboroff in a "today" exclusive. >> these flights of asylum seekers, there have been two of them now, they are described as state sanctioned kidnapping by the attorney general of this state of california. you tweeted directly at the governor of florida ron desantis, you called him a small pathetic man and asked, quote, kidnapping charges? is that what you believe happened, governor? florida kidnapped migrants and brought them to california? >> i think i'm being generous while empathetic. very generous. he is just weakness masquerading as strength. he is flailing. desperate for attention. let just level set here, let's level set. here is a governor from the state of florida that is using taxpayer money, and he had to go to another state to find people

under false pretense. i don't think this, i know this, i talked to the migrants. lied to them, took them into another state by bus, and then took them on a chartered flight to sacramento, lying to them that they had help on the other day, knocked on the door and they left the migrants right there on the steps. what kind of human being does that? >> ron desantis is going to be landing in this city later this month to hold a fundraiser for his presidential campaign. >> yeah. should he be worried that law enforcement will arrest him? >> now we're getting in to hyperbole. bottom line is -- >> well, just respectfully, i mean, i don't think it is hyperbole. you are raising the issue of criminal al it i. >> potentially. so it is ready, aim, fire. not ready, fire, aim. our approach is to seek first and collect all the facts.

and by the evidence that was provided, and i was there with these folks directly and listened to how they -- you know, human beings. used as pawns for a guy's political advancement. that is pretty sad and pathetic. and so i take this very seriously and as i said, we are not martha's vineyard. love martha's vineyard, but this is california. fourth and fifth largest economy on the planet earth. we mean business. so ron desantis should know that. and everyone that has been part of this, they may have more direct accountability and culpability should know that we mean business and we're not backing away from getting the facts and holding those accountable if they broke the laws in the state of california. >> fascinating interview and you can see more tomorrow on the

"today" show. i did enjoy the cutaways where jacob would say you called it kidnapping. it is a small and pathetic man. what can i say? do you think he's a kidnapper, is he running a human trafficking ring? ehh. the thing is that he's doing -- and this is so important, he is calling out the fact that if it is not criminal, and i don't know, perhaps it may be criminal, the attorney general in california thinks it does, but even if it is not, it is abhorrent that ron desantis is using human beings not really for political gain, just simply to own the libs. and you could talk about martha's vineyard rounding up people, throwing them on a plane so you could own the libs that go to martha's vineyard.

like again, little children, their moms, grandparents, it is just heinous. but i also think about flying immigrants up to the naval observatory. a lot of them in t-shirts and dumping them outside of the vice president's residence on christmas eve where it is freezing. again, they think that they are owning kamala harris. all they are doing is showing just the core of their existence. and on christmas eve to do this a little three, four, five-year-old children in t-shirts, dumping them in freezing weather? for a political stunt? it seems politically depraved to me at least. and i think gavin newsom a underlining that fact. >> and it anyone think that

sounded like newsom preparing to run against ron desantis in four years time? the way he was projecting the strength, it struck me as that. and the other important point, we've heard a lot about rapists and drug runners coming across the border. it is refreshing and unusual to hear a politician of newsom's stature talk about them with the kind ofhumanity he just expressed. so many have gone through hell and back to get to the position they are in. they may have come illegally, their asylum claims may be turned down, but all are just families trying to make a better life for their families. they come from countries where there is enormous insecurity, be where they are the subject of violence and extortion. and they try to give their kids a better life. they may have to go, but it is quintessentially why americans have come to this country over the centuries.

and to hear gavin newsom say these are people, and to use them in this way, it is unusual and good to hear him say it. >> it is good to hear him say it. you know, willie, the irony here is so many people who are saying this had parents, are grandparents, who came here and who were hated as immigrants. grandparents who came over from italy. and were mocked and ridiculed and hated and despised every bit as much as immigrants that are coming in from the southern border now or back before that, at the beginning of the 20th century, people coming here from germany for a better life. and my god, you know, you can see of course what happened with a lot of shows immigrants, they changed america for the better. you look at the immigrants that came here and you look at

silicon valley, you look at so many of the huge tech companies, america is number one in the world for good reason. and president reagan said when we stop welcoming immigrants to this country, then we stop being the young vibrant dynamic country that we have been for over 200 years. we'll become old and tired and exhausted. and so i think that i've been clear here furks want to come to america, you need to do it legally, but there are a lot of refugees that need to get into the country. and we need immigration reform bill that the left wants, that the business community wants, that small business owners

desperately need, that family restaurants desperately need. that family hardware stores on main street desperately need. i mean, we need workers, we need high skilled workers in silicon valley. we need low skill workers, you know, and family businesses starting out, perhaps it is at minimum wage. but we need immigrants here. you talk to business owners across the spectrum, and they all say the same thing. this is not about a republican issue or a democratic issue. unless they want to use it as a wedge issue. but you look and see, that is -- as we've explained here, that is not even working for republicans. it didn't work in '18 when they lied about caravans and leprosy. it never works. so why don't they to an all-encompassing immigration bill that toughens up border

security but also increases the number of legal immigrants we have, increase the number of refugees we have. and, i don't know, do something pretty radical. help not only those people coming in, because this is what -- how we get it wrong. we're looking at them thinking that we're doing them a favor if we let them become legal immigrants. no, talk to family restaurants, talk to people in silicon valley, talk to people on main street and wall street, they will tell you when immigrants come to america, they are doing us a favor, they are helping our economy and what separates us from so many economies across the globe. congress is just fumbling this every day. >> and that kind of comprehensive legislation has been illusive for decades. everyone talks about we need a comprehensive immigration bill.

you can go back, and it is always on the docket, it never happens or it hasn't for a long time anyway. and jonathan lemire, we say two things can be true at once. you shouldn't use human beings as political pawns and there is a crisis at the border. and we see it in new york city as well. very progressive city that has welcomed migrants, a sactuary city saying we can't handle the migrants anymore and they are sending to outlying counties. so time to do something serious about it, not just gesture about it. >> and even as there was a bipartisan deal on the debt limit the other day and some renewed hope to work across the aisle, there is no suggestion that any comprehensive immigration bill is coming anytime soon. and you are right to underscore the issues that cities are having. mayor adams saying that how much new york city is struggling with

this, even saying that he might have migrants at the mayoral residence because they are running out of space. it is a real issue. but it comes a time when the biden administration actually though no one is taking a victory happen here, it has now been a month since title 42 can about fired and there has not been the surge of migrants at the border that was anticipated. still an issue before i was talking to a white house aide on this topic who said that this is something that we're working on day in, day out. this is not something we'll celebrate just yet. numbers could turn at anytime. but at least to this point though they realize a lot of work to be done and yes an immigration bill is necessary, at least at this point the border, they are managing better than they thought they would. and still ahead on "morning joe," pope francis is back in the hospital this morning and is expected to remain there for the next several days. we'll have an update on his health. plus unemployment is near historic lows and the stock market has shown surprising strength. so why do polls show most americans are unhappy with the

state of the economy? steve rattner has charts to try to answer that question.

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might feel like progress, realtor.com. but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. welcome back to "morning joe." you are looking at pensacola, florida which of course one of the world's whitest beaches. a beautiful shot. let's bring in former treasury official and economic analyst steve rattner and also white house communications director and also member of the editorial world. this is like the 27th yankees. let's go to the big board first and steve rattner. i asked last week about all of these positive economic signs. and you had yet another chard yesterday talks about investment

in manufacturing in the united states. just exploding. and ways that are really heartening. and yet there is this dichotomy between what the economic numbers are showing and how americans are feeling. you've got some charts to explain why. tell us about it. >> yeah, a question you and i have talked about fairly often. you've asked me a few times. i don't know that i have a perfect answer, but let me show you some numbers that may help everybody who is on the show at the moment help answer this question. so let's talk over here. talk about how bad people feel at the moment. first of all, it is interesting that the country has been on a wrong track going all the way back really to after the 9/11 moment subsided. but you've had this very, very steady negative feeling among americans about right track wrong track. you can see on optimism about the economy notwithstanding what you just mentioned and a lot of other positive data, still deeply in negative territory. and you can see consumer sentiment notwithstanding again

good news, deeply in negative territory. and not surprisingly when you look at presidential approval ratings, you can see that president biden is unfortunately in deeply negative territory after having had a good start to his presidency. even obama had a fairly mixed up and down but some positive times -- times in positive territory. so let's look at a correlation between some economic conditions and how people feel. so if you look down here, this is what we call the misery index. this is the combination going back in the '70s during a terrible time in the country of course, combination of unemployment plus inflation added up. and you see way back in 1980, misery in-sedex was in really b shape. but if you look at consumer sentiment and say what is the correlation between these two, the correlation is quite high. and you can see that even

president trump in each of these dots represents a month, even president trump essentially hugged that line. president biden on the other happened, his numbers have come in way below that line. and in other words consumer sentiment is far worse than what would be suggested by biden's actual performance in terms of unemployment plus inflation. >> and, steve, let me interrupt you here. because it was always so interesting that donald trump ran around every day talking about the greatest economy ever, i've got the greatest economy ever, i've got the greatest economy ever, and actually people not just on fox news, people on this network would again their questions by going, well, of course donald trump has the best economy in history or whatever. it is like that got into the bloodstream of not just people around trump, but, you know, journalists who he said it so much, they started believing it. i just want to throw a little bit of reality on to this.

even before covid, we could talk about the thing that matters so much to me and that is the debt, just record setting debts, biggest budget busting deficits ever, but even beyond debt, even with all the spending and tax cuts, post world war ii, he ranked seventh in gdp growth behind jimmy carter even and i think gerald ford and several others. even before covid. and so he really didn't have a strong economy if you are measuring it actually by other presidents. yet you look at that consumer confidence and people just assume trump had a great economy because trump kept saying i have a great economy. >> so that may be simply a question of salesmanship, presidential leadership, whatever you want to call it. but yeah, trump convinced people he had high consumer sentiment

numbers. he did have low inflation and low unemployment, i take your point about his relative performance to the other presidents. but biden also has a good economy at the moment. we have 3.7% unemployment. yes, we have some inflation, but i'll show you numbers on incomes and things still doing well. and yet he has not been able to -- or people have not responded to it by having a reasonable amount of positive attitude toward the economy and consumer sentiment is down here in the toilet back in june 2022, it was as bad as it was in may '80 even though the economy was vastly better than it was in may '80. >> so let's go to the next chart about inflation and the impact on the national outlook. >> so let's start with a point you sort of made there, which is people actually are in pretty good economic situations and they actually think that they are in pretty good economic situations. 73% of americans think that their personal finances are either good or very good.

that is a big number. but when you ask them about their communicommunities, only their communities are good or very good. >> i have to stop you, sorry. you said something that i know is surprising to a lot of people watching the show right now. three out of four americans, we hear all the bitching and all the whining about how bad the economy is from the right. the trump right. three out of four americans think their economic situation is either good or very good. i mean, this would suggest again a massive disconnect. not what joe biden is saying but when americans are saying about their own economic situation. >> they are saying that, that's right. and they are also saying that their communities they think only 40% good or excellent. they are saying in the country, only 18% good or excellent.

and if you ask people where do you think you will be a year from now, they are actually not that optimistic, they are more pessimistic. so it is a very odd set of personal feelings. one possible explanation for all of this is inflation. people hate inflation. that is why it is in the misery index. but under joe biden, consumer pricing index has gone up by 15.3%. personal incomes 19.2%. meaning that people have still stayed ahead of inflation as a whole. but that said, there are a number of categories, a lot of sense difference things that people buy often or at least are very exposed to the prices of, that have gone up by much, much higher numbers. food, cars, energy, and this is automobiles here. and so on one hand their incomes if you -- as an economist would look like this, have gone up after inflation, but they are still feeling a lot of the

effects of inflation and i think a lot of the pundits so to speak would say this is a part of why the other numbers i showed you before look so bad. >> yeah, i talked before about how people in the media were going of course donald trump's economy is the best because he kept saying it, but media negativity also has had a big impact on biden as well. and it is folding down. just a side comment here, most people in the media don't remember -- well, they never reported on inflation. this is a shock for a lot of economists who had never dealt with inflation in their consult life. this was a shock for politicians who never had to explain what was happening with inflation.ths who never had to explain what was happening with inflation. and a lot of people don't remember 1979, 1980, 1981 when interest rates were shooting up into the high teens. >> so to your point about that,

joe, there is evidence that media certainly affects people's views. and that is what these charts here show. and so this basically asks the question of the news i see about inflation, mostly blank. portion negative. and so you can see if you look at their sentiment and you compare it to what is actually happening, you can see a big correlation when inflation spiked up, there was a negative feeling toward inflation. inflation becomes fairly benign, still a little negative, but pretty benign, and then the spike in inflation again obviously very negative perceptions of what they are seeing in the media about inflation and obviously that also faepts public opinion. but that is in the surprising. that is probably what you would have expected. but here is something that i think is surprising which is if you do the same exact analysis for unemployment, and jobs, you can see the news i see about employment is mostly --.

and back there it was very negative. we had the great jobs explosion here in the 2000s, up to and including covid, obviously you have covid, but then the jobs numbers start to recover and they get all the way back to where they were here, but the negativity doesn't recover. in fact it turns negative. it was positive before covid, it went negative even though the jobs numbers are so good, and has stayed negative. why is that? a couple possible explanations. of course none of us never really know the answer one is that there is more talk about layoffs at the moment and that may well be having an effect on people's psyches. but beyond that, it is simply a perception that the job situation is not nearly as good as it is frankly and as at least some people are reporting it. >> all right. steve rattner, thank you very much. we have mark and katie with us.

i'm sure you have a lot to say, but let's start with that perception that steve was talking about. and we've talked a lot on the show about biden's presidency being pretty historic given all the accomplishments that have happened. and that have added to some of the positive numbers that we're seeing. and yet there is still this perception. is the administration doing a well enough job messaging what they have accomplished? >> well, it also definitely a focus for the administration. it is the priority for the president, for the cabinet, for everybody who goes out to speak on behalf of the administration. before i left the white house, the president said they wanted people in the communities making a direct link between what he had done and how it impacts people's lives. not we passed this big infrastructure bill and let me talk about it with acronyms and in an inaccessible way. no, how does the fact that road is being rebuilt in your community make you safer, make

commute times shorter. so he gives the directive to his team to make sure they are talking about things that are accessible to people. across the board the point joe made about trump sort of hammering over and over again best economy in the world and so it was reported that way, i do think that biden has suffered from the inverse of that. i think we came through covid. it was an incredibly destabilizing and frightening time in the country. and there has been a pervasive sense in the media since then that we're on the cliff and things are about to get horrible again. and you can see it time and time again, it is job numbers beat expectations. well, where do those expectations come from? they come from the cumulative coverage. in terms of the public perception, the expect faces come from cumulative coverage of the press. and it has been consistently

negative and that is a huge challenge for the president but also for the country. >> and what more could the administration do then? because they have been going out and trying to tie specific projects in local communities to what they have done. one problem i've heard is that some of the money has not gone out yet. applications are coming in, but disbursements haven't happened. but there does seem to be a failure somewhere, right, to reflect what the reality is with what people are feeling. and so now you've left, what more would you say they need to do, more of the same or something different that they could try? >> i think some of this will start to resolve over the course of the year as the money comes out. you saw things like for example the $35 cap on insulin went into effect in january, so people will start to feel that in their lives this year. i think what the president and the cabinet and the team can do

is to continue to go out into the communities, look at for example the events that he did back i believe in january with mitch mcconnell at the bridge where he stood in front of the bridge in ohio, in kentucky, and said, you know, for 20 years, 30 years we've been trying to get this funded, improved, fixed. i've actually done it and i did it with republican support which i think goes to a larger narrative that people appreciate about joe biden which is that he can work across the aisle when common cause can be found. and so i think that he has to continue to do that. i think that the team has to be extremely aggressive about being out in every community and making this case. and by passing a little bit the d.c. and media filter. >> and what do you think about the political extremes out

there, if that is impacting sentiment as well. i speak to folks in different cities and towns who have their day to day jobs and they are busy and they are fed up and a negativity overall. >> i think that is right. and i also wonder how much the negativity has to do with the fact that inflation is coming after, you know, several years of exhaustion politically, personally, people going through upheaval in their lives. people are frustrated to begin with. but then even though there are some really bullish economic indicators and that really does speak well of the economy at the moment, you know, a lot of americans are not seeing some fundamental gains in their lives that they expected or hoped for that their parents saw. and so when you look at cost of really essential necessities like housing and college education, those things are still really -- the prices are

soaring. especially in major cities. but actually across america. there is a housing shortage across the country. rents -- median rent in the united states hit $2,000 a month for the first time last year. there is a lot of concern that americans are already being squeezed in fundamental ways. and on top of it, they are going to the drug store or grocery store and saying, wait, did i just -- how did i spend $50. i only bought a few things. and so i think that that is kind of adding insult to injury. and i think that may be affecting the polls here. and of course millennials of which i'm of one coming of age, i mean, all of those dynamics, being unable to buy a home for example, and this that is to the just major cities, this is across the country. and so there are fundamental dynamicses at play as well as the negativity bias. >> and we're seeing a trend of people being discontented. that globally we're seeing -- leaders of western democracies

across the globe, poll numbers are bad right now. and president biden despite an impressive legislative record to this point, and the numbers are there saying the economy is good, but people aren't feeling it. they feel left behind. at least particularly in this country. this is the first time where i feel like americans feel like they may not be able to guarantee a better future for their children than they had themselves. and i think that we're seeing that sort of roiling anger and unhappiness and anxious fuss you are surface. >> they may not be offering solutions an i'd argue that they are not, but they are trying to tap into that. we did just go through a global pandemic which the global response in many ways it fail. millions of people died. people are traumatized. and then there is climate change, there is a lot of doom and gloom about that for good

reason. and that there is a sense that something has broken down. not just the united states, but in terms of people being willing to work together across nations to solve big problems. and i think a lot of people feel like they are on their own and then you add to that will dynamic where you have kind of the concentration of capital. so you have billionaires getting richer, but middle class being squeezed not just the united states, but elsewhere. and then the war in europe, first time in decades. i think that, you know, it is a dark time in some ways. member of the "new york times" editorial communications director, thank you both for coming on this morning. coming up, national security analyst. we'll be right back.

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developing news out of europe this morning, the associated press reports germany has 250 aircraft from 25 nations will drill. the united states is sending 2,000 air national guard personnel and about 100 aircraft itself. let's go to the big board. clint, i know you will look at the dam destroyed, and what is your take on the massive training exercise from nato? >> i have to say i was pleasantly surprised to see how strong the unity is of all the

united nations. the irony is all of this is nato has become stronger from vladimir putin's aggression, rather than weaker. >> big show of strength there. let's talk about the dam blown up in southern ukraine along the front lines? >> this is something that has been extreme, going all the way back to last fall. you might remember last october president zelenskyy warned the russians that control the dam right here on the dnipro river, they controlled the dam and could detonate it to flood down to the south, and what we are seeing is extreme damage. to the north is ukrainian held and to the south is russian held. the dam controlled by the russians and it's 3.2 kilometers

long. it's a massive reservoir that extends to the north. you will see some claims out there about possible artillery strikes and this happened in the middle of the night. this is a massive explosion. while it could appear externally, most likely it was an internal explosion. what we have seen over the last 24 hours is massive flooding downstream which everybody has been worried about. there's lots of humanitarian concerns right now, people being rescued off of roofs. there was flooding out in russian-controlled territory to the south. this is critical because where the junction here where the russians have gone and seized parts of places like this area, and they are being replaceded

and everybody believes there will be a counter offensive from the ukrainians. what was really only maybe a few 100 meters will be kilometers now, and the waters are expected to peak in the next 24 hours. it's believed the russians probably did it with an external explosion, and we are not sure, but the reason they would have done is that to delay them. >> and the russians are suggesting the ukrainians blew up their own dam and flooded their own towns. does that make sense to you? >> no, not at all. and it doesn't make sense to create more obstacles for themselves. we have seen the ukrainians do lots of shaping offensives, and

we have seen partisan attacks of pro ukrainian russians inside this region here, and separately we have seen drone strikes or drone attacks that go all the way into oscow. >> nbc news national security analyst, clint watts. thank you for bringing that to us. we appreciate it. mika? joining us a member of the house armed services committee as well as the select committee and strategic competition between the u.s. and china. she's also a navy veteran that previously served as a russian policy officer. wow, you run the gamut of the big issues of today from china to russia. let's start with ukraine. what do you make of the russian strategy, i guess, of claiming ukraine did this? your thoughts? >> i think the first thought i have is it does look as if this was sabotage by the russians of the dam they controlled.

again, such a lack of concern for their own people, their own people who are flooded out, putting a lot of their positions in danger. there did not seem to be an attempt to move their soldiers out of that region. again, you see movement here that is also not strategically clear that it's going to be clear for russia. they flooded out many of their placements, which is going to provide some opportunities for ukraine forces >> some people have suggested if vladimir putin starts to feel himself backed into a corner, and he may do something. i am wondering if this dam being

breached is the kind of thing -- there are more things the russians could do to inflict more pain on the ukrainians, and is this one of the things they could do to inflict the pain? >> we have seen them do horrific things. number one amongst them, taking ukrainian children and taking them into russia. however, while i think we are always concerned about a nation with nuclear power in a war and what they might do, and especially with an unstable leader that controls the nuclear weapons, like putin, we are also seeing pushback from the chinese. russia does not have a lot of friends right now and they are very cognizant of the feelings of the chinese and what they are going to think about that. we have seen the chinese push russia not to use nuclear weapons.

i think that will definitely be part of any calculation that putin makes as to how he will move forward. >> how would you describe the u.s./china relationship and where it needs to go, and especially with the high-profile near misses, especially in the skies? >> we are entering into a new phase? >> what is that phase? >> yeah, we hoped if we helped the chinese economy we would see them in the rules-based economic order that the u.s. and our allies established since post world war ii. unfortunately we saw anything but. the continued undermining of that order in things like dumping things into a market to clear out other competitors, forced work requirements, forced labor, and corporate espionage

and forced i.p. transfer. what they have done is the more power they have gotten the more they threatened the rules-based economic order. so the united states and our allies are now competing with china and saying no more, you are obviously not good actors on the economic scene, so we are going to compete. we are going to fence off our high-end semiconductor chips. we are going to help make sure that we make things in the united states if we can't trust you and your supply chains. i think the chinese, quite frankly, are missing a little bit the tide has turned. it's not just the united states. in the high-end conductor semichips, we worked with japan and the netherlands. they are up to their old tactics, pushing back

aggressively and doing aggressive things in the taiwan strait, and punishing people opposed to realizing this is a different era and coming to the table -- >> yeah, the dynamic has changed. thank you for coming. it's three minutes past the top of the hour. we are learning new details about the two separate grand juries looking into former president trump's handling of the classified documents after leaving the white house. we have learned secret service agents have been subpoenaed or appeared in front of the committee in washington, d.c. they say testimony took place in the last few months, meaning not recently as the grand jury has been on hiatus. and at the same time, an unknown federal grand jury in miami

started hearing testimony in the classified documents case last month, so in florida as well. only a handful of witnesses testified or are scheduled to appear, and that includes one witness set to testify today. the paper cites people familiar with the grand jury's workings. meanwhile, former president trump's chief of staff testified before a grand jury, and the story was first reported by "the new york times." mark meadows reportedly answered questions in the probe into trump's handling of classified documents and the investigation into his alleged efforts to stay in power after losing the 2020 election. joe, it would seem he would have a lot to share on both those top kwrebgz?

>> yeah. there were moments during january 6th where -- >> that's right. -- >> where mark meadows was just lying on the couch, and others were yelling, you have to do something. well, he did absolutely nothing time and time again. the question is, who did the prosecutors get when they put him in a deposition, jonathan lemire? did they get the guy that turned over all the documents on the january 6th committee, or was he a guy that locked up after donald trump called his book fake news. you would think under oath, and you look at the statement that

his attorney made, and he always said he would tell the truth under oath, which i kind of like that, and the attorney says, when he's not under oath, hey, it's anybody's guess, but put him under oath he will tell the truth. if he did, that's bad news for donald trump. >> meadows did disavow his own book there. also on january 6th, he was not able to do anything for the president even when the first daughter, ivanka trump was asking him to do so. he was cooperative with the january 6 investigation, and then when once donald trump started to denounce him, he froze out the committee. he was held in contempt of congress for not responding to a subpoena here, so he has shown at times he's loyal to trump, and we don't know what he said and how cooperative he was with

the grand jury and the special counsel investigation under oath, but we do know how important he is to both matters at hand here, both the classified documents found in mar-a-lago and the efforts to overturn the election on january 6th, and we know as investigations are built they work their way up. the last time i checked the chief of staff is right beneath the president of the united states. >> yeah, and that's why they are talking to him. and a number of social media platforms are starting to roll back some of the measures they put in place to combat misinformation. last week youtube announced it will stop removing content that falsely claims the 2020 election was fraudulent. they wrote, removing such post could have the unintended effect of curtailing political speech,

and meta also reinstated the instagram the account of robert f. kennedy jr. he was removed for posting misinformation on covid vaccinations. joining us, dan, the author of the fourth coming book titled "misbelief." it's good to have you here. let me start with you on the youtube, the most recent of the companies rolling back and saying there's not a real threat of violence from these things. january 6th seems like a case against that point. why are they doing? >> because none of us were alive the last seven years? the real answer here is political gamesmanship, here.

over the last two years the number one priority was to bring up the twitter files and all these things about speech on the internet. you know what happened, really? we have less speech. it cost 8 bucks to post something on twitter now. youtube, facebook, twitter, they have these back end things that people like you could go and look at, and it's like crowd tangle on facebook, and you could see what basically was going on on that platform, and twitter is the same thing. it's auld api access. can you go -- the best analog is you can go and ask what's in the pharmacy and get it out of the pharmacy, and you can see what information you can get. that's gone. that sort of thing was labeled

as, you know, the disinformation regime. you know, the people trying to stop you from saying free speech, just the study of the actual speech on the internet. now we have, you know, the same republicans are saying things like tiktok are a national security threat. guess what? we will never know what is behind that black box because the pressure the academics put on facebook, twitter, google, instagram, that pressure is now politically not fine. what we have is -- you know, it's speech inflation, basically. all of the good information out there cost money, and it cost money to say stuff on the internet and cost money to get good stuff on the internet. you could still access the twitter api, and it's expensive, millions of dollars sometimes. we have evolved where you can get good information or speak your mind. >> twitter has changed since

elon musk took over, and conservatives say it changed for the better, and now they can speak their mind. and now what about meta where they said we will go back to the way it was? >> the whole thing about the disinformation is wrong. the real problem is kau roesive information. when we think about misinformation, we think if it was just another fact on the other side everything would be okay, and it's misinformation and let's just fix it. i had the misfortune of being very much attacked by covid deniers for the last two years, and i have been spending a ton of time in the dens of the misinformation, and i was injured, as you can see, and i

hated healthy people and that's why i joined bill gates and am trying to kill as many people as possible. people go down a tunnel and saying it's a corrosive news. when people start creating different beliefs about our trust in our government and our trust in our health system, very hard to go back. one of the things that's, like, the journey is very interesting. lots of elements. there's stress and personality and cognitive, but the social element is basically the thing that seals the deal. if you think about the covid as an example, and people were -- you know, society turned away to people that had a certain belief and they found a whole new community, tremendous love and caring and so on.

there's no way back. once you found a community and you develop those beliefs, there's no way back. when we say misinformation, yes, there's misinformation out there. we used to think that fact is very unhealthy, and now we think there's redeeming features in fact and that's misinformation, and we were wrong in some points, but we are talking about something different here, talking about taking a group of people and putting them in a funnel where if we are not careful there is no way to go back. now if we have another national emergency we need to deal with. eventually trust in each other, trust in our government is what will allow us to galvanize and move forward. these are things that are corroding that. if you look at what happened with fox news and the election, and they elected to pay money because it was clear there was a

financial outcome. here the outcomes are large and financial but it's not accompanying society as a whole. think about what happened to people's trust in the government. we could say as people lose trust in the fbi and government and so on, there's a cost to everybody. it's not just misinformation. it's a very, very corrosive type of information. a lot of the information is not just to say this person is wrong, but they are saying this person is so corrupt that we could never forgive them. i think about the use of pedophilia, and think about the use of traitors. this is basically saying we are move into a dangerous direction. >> joe? >> yeah, really dangerous. there are so many things to bounce off of what ben just

said. i will say, ben, part of it that i have seen is the community aspect that he talked about. you have people who were isolated in their homes and people who failed -- i am not generalizing everybody. i am not generalizing everybody. but i do want you to talk about this. so many people that i come in touch with that i have the conspiracy theories, they lost their jobs and they are isolated from their families. life has broken them. they -- they -- you know, it's what we have talked about on this show in rural america, you know, tim carney wrote a great book talking about how evangelical churches have shutdown and there's not that community. we go into sunday school and everybody used to be sitting around and drinking their coffee and then somebody would come up

with a crazy conspiracy theory, and we with would turn and go, where did you hear that, that ain't right, but anyway, how about the falcons? they will win this week. and then we go back to talking. that's not it now, and a lot of the churches have been hollowed out and there's no sounding boards and they just sit, and as dan said, they get funneled down into this community of hatred, of conspiracy theories, of lies. and they are welcomed in it. >> yeah, it's a 30-year project. there's a book about all of this, about bowling alone, about the idea that once you lose that community it needs to be replaced somehow. the issue is there's one political party that is okay and open to the concept of leading people down this path, and saying, you know, everything that you think is true about all of these conspiracy theories,

instead of slightly correcting them and talking about football which is what we used to do and still kind of do, right, but on the air it's not how it works. you get funneled down deeper. if you were to listen to ron desantis' launch with elon musk on twitter, which a lot of you couldn't, but if you could find a way to get on there, you would hear nothing but just weird acronyms, cbdc -- do you know what that is? >> that one i don't know. >> it's a digital currency thing they think will rival the bitcoin, but it's all a different language because they funneled themselves into a specific space where they say all these acronyms are out to get you and they are all place holders, and dbi, it means black people and it's a fear of the

other. once you create a political identity out of this that some big anonymous entity at the top is trying to get you, trying to reel you in, and instead of talking about football and stuff that actually exist and real issues, like cheerios cost $9 or something, that's going to be a problem because you can't bring them back from that, and you can't bring them back from talking about cheerios are $9 if they believe there's one big entity trying to rule the world. >> go ahead. >> it's hard to fix the misbeliefs, and what is a psychological need? it's the need for relief of stress. i am looking for something to blame, and what do i find to blame? here is this particular entity,

particular acronym to blame. if you look at the mechanisms, they do both, and they create the stress, and they increase the chance that somebody would look for another nonstandard explanation. a lot of mistakes happen and lots of things, but the moment you create stress you drive people into something that is that a causal, an evil entity that would do it and you serve those entities, and it's a perfect situation to misdirect people. >> it's storytelling, right? >> yes. >> is there a way out of this? maybe it's an audience that is so small they can't win elections, and is there a way to get out of this dangerous trend? >> it's not easy. when i started writing this book i was hoping i would have a chapter on solutions.

i have sections that i call hopefully helpful, which are small. the reality is that we can do a lot with what we call prebunking. right? we need to eliminate the creation of those. the reason this is so important is social media is creating those conditions and creating this corrosion, and by allowing them to do all of these things, we are creating things that are very tough. there are things we can do, and if we have this gate, this social media that just channel people this way, and everything we do is small but we have to deal with the main problem. one solution is to hug a conspiracy theorists. what i mean by that is the social orificism, if you have an uncle that started believing something very different, at

some point you are not going to talk to him. but the ostracizism, that can be worst. we need to realize the danger people are going towards in the funnel. >> yeah, many of the january 6th people said i got sucked down the funnel and believed the lights. this is a great conversation and we will continue to have it. come back soon, if you both would. ben collins, and dan arieli, thank you both. two people were killed, five injured in a shooting yesterday after a high school graduation ceremony in virginia. it happened on the campus of virginia commonwealth university and richmond.

police say a 19-year-old suspect was taken into custody and will be charged with two counts of second-degree murder. it's believed he knew at least one of the victims who has not been identified. one of the person that was killed was an 18-year-old who graduated about an hour earlier. pope francis is back in the hospital this morning for surgery today under general anesthesia, the 86-year-old was experiencing recurring abdominal pain and is expected to recover at the health facility. and then a strong stand against the liv golf tour. we will bring you the fallout from that shocking decision from the pga. plus, chris christie jumps into the 2024 race as the anti-trump candidate. we will dig into that strategy.

you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> eight years ago he stood on the stage in new hampshire and said he will balance the budget in four years, and he left with the biggest deficit of any president in american history. he said he was going to eliminate the national debt in eight years. he added $3 trillion to the national debt in four years.

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self-serving, mirror hog is not

a leader. the person i am talking about, who is obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, and who always finds somebody else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong but finds every reason to take credit for anything that goes right is donald trump. it's not amusing anymore or entertaining anymore, it's the last throws of a bitter, angry man that wants power back for himself, not for you. >> joe, chris christie representing the voice of the exhausted republican, perhaps, saying it's not funny anymore and it's time to move on and trying to give some of the voters a place to go, and a big focus on new hampshire for him, and didn't do great there it should be pointed out in 2016,

and soon after dropped out and endorsed donald trump. what is your take on chris christie in the race now? >> well, the 2016 debate, he ended marco rubio's chances to run, and that was just one debate. you get the sense that chris christie's mission could be to win the nomination, but like sherman and his march to the sea, you get a sense here that christie's march to victory is straight through donald trump, and it is political annihilation. that's his goal, total war. what i suspect, what marco rubio saw in one debate, donald trump is going to be seeing this entire campaign. does that move the needle? i don't know.

i was thinking yesterday, elizabeth, chris christie actually -- chris christie, a former prosecutor. this is a guy that can take the case, and not only donald trump's failings straight to the voters, but also the federal indictment that is coming, seems like chris christie is most likely to say, no, great, your uncle on facebook told you that, let me tell you i did this for years, i prosecuted for years, and let me tell you why he's wrong and why donald trump is wrong and why he's not fit for president. maybe chris christie is the one to carry that message? >> maybe, and everybody is going to ask where have you been in the last several years,

supporting donald trump and it's a complete u-turn, and it's going to be hard for voters to take. yes, he's appealing to that dwindling number of republicans who are fed up with donald trump and need somebody else, but, again, it's going to be trump will eviscerate him and annihilate him. we shall see. he's interesting to watch. >> right. >> not a boring candidate, and he's lively and smart and knows his stuff, but i wonder how he will do in the current republican party. >> this was a stronger start than we have seen. i mean, this was going right to the heart of the matter. i can't disagree with one thing he said, and i know there are people that feel that way about donald trump except his base, and there are trump supporters who are tiring of it and i think chris christie can be the voice, and as joe pointed out, for a

prosecutor he has the skills to meet trump where he is and to fight hard, possibly even dirty. yeah, but my god, where in the world were you when the country was melting down during covid, and where were you? >> that could be a critique when he is coming from the press, but the other candidates running against donald trump, they don't want to bring that up so he could maybe get a pass from the other candidates because it puts them in a double edged position. more than the prosecutorial

skills, he has the temperament. >> he has been waiting a long time for this. >> i spoke to him a year ago when he was talking about running, and he was waiting to fight trump and wants to fight trump and relishes fighting trump. the other candidates don't want to take trump on in a fight and are wondering how do i go around trump. i have not seen a candidate even back in 2016, was there a candidate that relished the fight with trump, apart from joe biden, he relished it, and i don't see the other republican candidates that relish it like chris christie does. >> she's right, and chris christie is going straight through donald trump. you know, there's a sliding scale for all republicans.

you know, you can say the same thing about people, you know, james mattis went in to try and help donald trump, a lot of people did, and chris christie did the same. in 2020, it was christie that started quieting telling people in march and april that said donald trump is trying to set this election up, talking about -- talking about how it's going to be a rigged election. he's already trying, talking about mail-in balloting and everything else, and in march of 2020 this was his plan to try and steal the election from joe biden. again, he was there. he was there all along. i am not -- i am not carrying, you know, his water when i say this, the way i look at this republican field is it's donald trump against the field.

people have been trying to figure out, how does donald trump get beaten? i think with chris christie being the lead prosecutor, that gives the field a chance, at least a 50/50 chance. if i am donald trump, i don't want this guy going around all the time talking about payoffs to porn stars, and all the things christie will talk about in the campaign. >> he will get a lot of media, and he is a well-known speaker, and the question is in the big field, will that matter against donald trump. new hampshire is setting up as his place he will win. he did finish sixth place in 2016, and he made that same pitch to voters there in 2016. what he can do, and he remains a long shot like a lot of the candidates is to inject into the conversation the failings of donald trump, donald trump's

history, in a way the other candidates don't want to do, they don't want to fight him. >> i was struck yesterday, he went after trump's family, ivanka trump and jared kushner, and there's a backstory there with jared in particular. he's going so far where other candidates have been afraid to. his mission is to become the gop nominee. he's a long shot, and he's polling in the single digits. there are some in the gop, never trumpers that want christie to put on the political suicide vest, and is he willing to do that? he would alienate so many republican voters and his small chances of winning. you are right, he's good at media and he will do good in a ton of interviews, but the best

place to take on donald trump is on a debate stage. there's questions if he could qualify for the debate stage. he will have to raise a lot of money in order to make it. if he can't, that will mute a lot of attacks on donald trump if he can't do it face-to-face. >> coming up, the u.s. treasury had less cash on the balance books than many of the world's richest people. cnbc andrew ross sorkin just sat down with janet yellen to talk about the state of the economy. that conversation, straight ahead here on "morning joe." there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month.

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i've talked at a player meeting and a number of players individually for a long period of time and i think you would

have to be living under a rock to not know that there's significant implications, and as it relates to the families of 9/11, i have two families close to me that lost loved ones. my heart goes out to them. i would ask, you know, any player that has left or any player that would ever consider leaving, you have ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour. >> a lot of people have been reading about the tension, and we have talked a lot. i said previously that we were going down our path and they were going down theirs. today that tension goes away. the litigation has dropped. we are announcing to the world that on behalf of this game we are coming together. it's less about how people respond to day and it's all about how people respond in ten

years. >> that's the pga tour talking about towards it's rival now partner the saudi-backed liv golf league. liv golf is backed by an entity controlled by the saudi crown prince that has been embroiled with the antitrust lawsuits since its formation. joining us is a sports columnist. we were saying earlier, how would you like to be tiger woods this morning having on principle passed up 400 or $800 to join liv only to find out they are making a deal behind your back?

>> yeah, willie, it's amazing how much sports always comes back to the line from boxing, yesterday i was lying and today i am telling the truth. he will have to explain to the players where he said you remain loyal to us and we will take care of you, and literally one year apart he said that stuff. this is also mob-like to me. it's not personal, it's strictly business. jay monahan went to the people he said he hated yesterday for money. like anybody who has taken money from the mob knows the big in this case will be monahan's personal reputation. i believe it may not happen next week or month, but i think monahan is through. >> this combines foreign policy

and golf. what did you make of that announcement? we were stunned and thought about the guys put out there on the pga tour and ripped some of their friends who left and went to play for liv. >> yeah, what will happen to those that went to liv and what will happen to those that did not. it's inevitable, given how many talented players defected and the antitrust legal battles, and it reminds me of the nfl and the afl, first you night and then you merge. you have a lot of unhappy players. i get it. it's not 100% done yet. it was only a question of when and not if this was going to happen. come up, what can the

american military learn from the war in ukraine? that and much more when "morning joe" comes right back. lomita feed is 101 years old. when covid hit, we had some challenges. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. for copd, ask your doctor about breztri. breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vison changes, or eye pain occur. if you have copd ask your doctor about breztri.

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the explosion that destroyed a dam was most likely set off from the inside. they say an attack from the outside is possible but less plausible. the dam's destruction has triggered massive flooding and endangered thousands of people living downstream. the national police say 23 towns and villages have flooded and at least 1300 people have been forced to evacuate. the u.s. intelligence says russia is behind the attack.

so let's talk about this dam and why it is such a central ploois place in this war. >> it distracts what ukraine wants do, if it wants to focus on launching the so-called offensive, this makes it much more difficult. tens of thousands of people are directly affected. it is almost somewhat related for providing water for the cooling of the nuclear power plant. and so inconceivable that ukraine had anything to do with this. all the logic, if you will, points to russia. plus they have been controlling the area of ukraine for quite a while, so one assumes that they had access to something inside the machinery that operates the dam. >> so if this is something that has taken place at the begin of the counteroffensive that we've been hearing about for months and months perhaps as a way for russia to slow that, people hear that permanent, they hear ps coming, what does it mean

exactly and what difference will it make in the righter war? >> it is a hard question to answer. it is not as though a counteroffensive is a single event or a single moment. you to all sorts of probes. we'll probably have a better sense of it once it is under way. indeed it is possible that the ukraine military haven't quite decided where they will concentrate. my guess is that you probe certain places and you find out where you have the greatest opportunities. but what is true strategically ukraine is under pressure to show some significant gain. and they have a few months to do it. this fighting season. and so whatever you call it, however you describe it, and in a few months either ukraine will be controlling a lot more of the territory of its own country or not. either way, that will have all sorts of implications. >> let's get your assessment of a few recent reports of the

operation within russia. the drone attacks may have been targeting russian intelligence officials. doesn't seem like they had much success. and also reporting that the ukrainian government was plotting to throw up the nordstream pipelines. they didn't carry through that operation but later a pro ukraine group did. and how -- what is your take on ukraine's frankly being a little more aggressive into russia and what the u.s. response has been? >> the u.s. apparently knew that ukraine or some ukrainian entity was planning an attack on the nordstream pipeline for several months. but you're right, there is too much going to to plan the attack. i think they want the russian people puts heat on vladimir putin to potentially think -- rethink the entire war against ukraine. i'm not sure it will work that way. always dangerous. it feeds putin's narrative that

they are on the defensive, there could be a rally around the flag approach. but i would think that is the ukraine calculation that if we can take the war to russia, that will get some russians to put pressure on putin to rethink the war against us. coming up an update on the government's investigations of donald trump. nbc's ken dilanian is keeping tabs on the chances of a potential indictment for the former president. that is just ahead. rmer presidet that is just ahead

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a beautiful shot of denver for you this morning. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." i think it is time to get up and go to work. is it wednesday? >> yes, it is. >> you're halfway through the

week. let's do it. 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we have a packed final hour for you including the merger that stunned pro sports. we'll break down why the pga tour and liv golf are joining forces an how it benefits donald trump. plus chris christie launches his 2024 presidential campaign as the loudest voice against the former president and he is even calling out the trump family. we will show you the searing comments from chris christie. also ahead, janet yellen's first interview since a deal to avoid a default. and her take on the state of the u.s. economy. and on capitol hill, hardline republicans tank two gop bills by voting with democrats. we'll explain what motivated that move. but first, we are following several new developments involving two separate grand juries hearing testimony in the

trump classified documents investigation. sources familiar with the probe tell nbc news a federal grand jury in florida will meet this week to hear evidence in the case. that is in addition to the grand jury that has already been hearing testimony in the nation's capital. meanwhile, donald trump's former white house chief staff has reportedly testified before a grand jury hearing evidence in the justice department's investigations into the former president. that is a lot right there. but joining us now with more is ken dilanian. what have you got? >> we're just seeing reports from our colleagues in miami that trump's spokesperson post-presidency just walked into the federal courthouse with his lawyer. >> and so context, please. >> so it has been -- we've been

reporting and others is been reporting that we expected at least one witness to testify before the grand jury in florida. and this appears to be a witness with a lawyer walking into a courtroom where we think this grand jury is sitting. and so we're also -- we've reported last night that at least 20 secret service agents have befored before the grand jury that was going on longer than we realized. >> and so what does it say to you? does it say to you that there are perhaps other defendants who may be involved, and if you look at all the different people who apparently gave testimony who work inside mar-a-lago, am i correct -- >> that's right. almost everybody. >> -- might have been involved with doing something wrong? >> that is certainly a possibility. there is a lot of speculation that trump's body man walt nauta who gave two different stories about how it happened, he may be facing a false statements charge. but this appears to be maybe

even beyond that, that perhaps jack smith the special counsel intends to bring at least part of his case, maybe obstruction of justice aspect of his case in florida because the venue is better there. we're not sure what is happening in washington. in theory the whole case could be brought in florida. >> i think people have been thinking that the florida case would be for crucial player, people that perhaps lied to the grand jury. are you suggesting that perhaps it could be donald trump if he is indicted gets indicted down in florida too? >> it is certainly a possibility. they could do the whole case in florida. >> are the laws different in florida? >> no, not one federal law and a lot of legal experts think that the jury pool would be much more sympathetic to a prosecution here in washington, d.c., but there may be reasons -- the venue having the trial in washington, d.c. may be more subject to a legal challenge because most of the conduct happened down in florida.

i get different answers when i talk to legal experts about that, but it may be more prudent, jack smith may decide to bring the case in florida. >> interesting. joe is joining us now. jump in. >> ken, let's talk about mark meadows. obviously meadows cooperated with the january 6 committee until he didn't. until donald trump started attacking him for being cooperative. but he turned a treasure trove of documents to the committee that helped them outline their case against donald trump. and he went in obviously testified yesterday. how impactful could that testimony ultimately end up being in convicting touchdown? >> i mean, i think that it could be huge. and we have not been able to reach his lawyer to confirm the testimony, but we have no reason to doubt it. and it could be big or huge depending on how cooperative of a witness he is. there is speculation that he has been quite cooperative with the special counsel.

witnesses can hold things back and not be very fruitful for prosecutors. or they can be expansive and talk a lot and really provide a lot of information. and look, there is nobody who knows more about both in the january 6 case with what donald trump was doing to try to overturn the election and perhaps in the classified documents case what his knowledge was, what his intent was about bringing these documents to mar-a-lago. nobody knows more than perhaps mark meadowss. >> go ahead, joe. >> and i was saying that there was talk that he might plead the fifth. apparently he was moving in a more cooperative way. and i'm curious as far as timing goes, what does a prosecutor look at when you are looking at obviously the new york case against trump, you are looking at the possibility of this case against trump, documents case. the georgia cases coming.

possibility of a january 6 case coming against him. do you think that jack smith feels pressure to start moving forward on the documents case at least? >> yes, i do. people who know him and have done these types of cases tell me that is the case. it is not about thinking in a political way, but he is knowledgeable of the political calendar and he knows that you have to get this case to trial at some point before the election. and it will take at least a year, maybe more, from the time the indictment hits and the clock starts ticking. so absolutely he is under pressure. and he is the kind of prosecutor who has never been deterred by politics or even by a challenging case. he prosecuted plenty of politicians over the years. lost some big cases but not afraid to bring the big controversial case. >> stand by. joining us is vaughn hillyard covering the trump campaign. what more can you tell us about

the role taylor plays? >> he was really donald trump's right hand. he served as a spokesman for him upon arrival to mar-a-lago. but really was only any present. taylor was with him every step of the way. i mean, down to being alongside him at the atlanta braves game for the world series. taylor is somebody who was aware of conversations that were taking place. and i think that it is important when we talk about donald trump, he has a very small circle of people around him now over the last three years. there are key aides who left the white house with him, but were also much more private than during the course of donald trump's presidency, those sort of names that we all came to know. only time you'd see taylor was really in the form of a statement. he now runs the super pac.

he did not join formally the 2024 campaign and instead continued to oversee what is $100 million plus operation. and that is important. the grand jury could potentially be asking him about the documents but also fun raising, -- fundraising, efforts after the 2020 election and ways in which the super pac was reaching folks to try to raise money. and what taylor's potential role here it especially comes down to june 3 of last year. in the conversations over where those documents were. there were some allies of trump who were suggesting that this was overstepping and that donald trump was negotiating with national archives. he said here, here is the room, right, we'll put additional looks on for any other concerned documents.

>> so talk to us more about how this sort of skeleton staff that donald trump came out of the white house with. it was mark meadows in first months afterwards and we know that it was during the process of meadows' book that it was caught on audiotape. and now of course taylor. and so if the prosecution is working either way towards trump, this is how you do it, right? these are the last people, ultimate last inner circle. >> these were the folks there every day with donald trump and were at least aware of the conversations. and his own words. i think that is what it comes down to, they know what donald trump was saying about the events as they were unfolding. does taylor or margo martin, do they know the specifics?

they may not know that, but they know that donald trump was saying about the fbi search warrant execution. they know what he was saying about the documents that he had at mar-a-lago. that is what prosecutors are going to be able to get from the likes of taylor. >> so very interesting, vaughn, you've been following obviously the republicans and those that want to unseat donald trump as sort of the de facto leader of the republican party. chris christie has tossed his name into the hat there. and, man, he is doing what none of the other candidates are doing. he is going after trump and trump's family. it is very personal. let's take a look. >> eight years ago he stood on this stage in new hampshire and said that he was going to balance the budget in four years. and he left with the biggest deficit of any president in american history.

he said he was going to eliminate the national debt in eight years. he added $3 trillion to the national debt in four years. a lonely self consumed, self-serving mirror hog. is not a leader. the person i'm talking about who is obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, and who always finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong but finds every reason to take credit for anything that goes right, is donald trump. it is not amusing, it is not entertaining anymore. it is the last throes of a bitter angry man who wants power

back for himself. not for you. the grift from this family is breathtaking. it is breathtaking. jared kushner and ivanka kushner walk out of the white house and months later get $2 billion from the saudis? $2 billion from the saudis. you think it is because he is some kind of investing genius or do you think it is because he was sitting next to the president of the united states for four years doing favors for the saudis. that is your money. that is your money he stole. and gave it to his family. you know what that makes us? a banana republic. >> yeah. i got to say, first of all, there is so much to unwind with chris christie and jared kushner relationship, prosecuting jared kushner's father and in return jared kushner blocking chris

christie from being vice president of the united states and pushing donald trump towards mike pence. but we'll just put that to the side. did you see chris christie was literally talking to those people like they were in a jury box. do you think that is because he is such a wise investor? i mean, good lord. >> so do we ignore the last eight years, is that what you're saying? >> no, i'm just saying all the world is a stage, right? and chris christie, the role that he is stepping into is prosecutor against donald trump. nobody else is talking about trump. they are all trying to go around trump, they are all trying to be polite. chris christie is -- make no mistake of it, people go, well, why did you -- i don't care what he said. yes, it is bad. okay. we're not talking about whether he will win or lose. i'm talking about for purposes of this discussion, doesn't it looks like chris christie is

setting himself up to be the prosecutor against donald trump. and he is going straight at him. >> compare that to mike pence's 2 1/2 minute video this morning in which he didn't mention donald trump once and he was literally his vice president. okay, chris christie here, his biggest task will be getting 45,000 americans to donate to his campaign the next two months. august 23rd is the debate indicate. there is a threshold of not only polling percentage that chris christie will have to meet, so he will have to get at least some support among republican voters nationally, but also the rnc put requirement that he has to get 45,000 donors. so he has to get 45,000 americans to donate to his campaign. other weird thing he will have to do is pledge to support the eventual republican nominee. so i guess he will also have to pledge that he would support donald trump. but for chris christie, it is hard. this is the man that was helping donald trump with debate prep in 2020 against joe biden.

>> yeah. there is a juggling act here. and i guess that is one of the challenges. jonathan lemire, you look at the things that chris christie said, things that he's done, you look at the things that, you know, the former governor of south carolina nikki haley has done, things she's done. you look at mike pence. i mean, you know, mike goes from putting his water bottle on the floor when donald trump puts his water bottle on the floor to actually running for his life and being locked up because donald trump wants the mob to can kill will im. there will be a balancing act for all of him. but chris christie, it will be fascinating to see how the prosecution against donald trump goes for him. >> each candidate will have to make a decision as to how he or she will take on the balancing act of both criticizing trump but not alienating his supporters who that person would

then need to be the potential nominee. and we've seen senator tim scott for instance has said nothing about trump. he is the only one who hasn't. i was looking at mike pence's campaign bio. he was vice president for four years and that gets one sentence. he is playing up his time in indiana and post being in office. but christie does seem best suited to be that attack dog because of his background and bombastic nature, because he is very good at courting press. he will be able to deliver sound bites that will resonate. it will hurt if he can't get on the debate stage. if he is not able to go face-to-face to trump, that would be a real issue. but this is how they are all going to have to figure this out going forward as we all again coming against the backdrop of rising legal peril that trump faces. that maybe that is the opening here where they can swoop in. >> the concept of go big or go home, he has definitely taken

that. vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. ken dilanian, just walk us through what you think will play out maybe in the next week or so. what will you be looking for? >> still does feel like things are happening if not this week, next week. i'd be surprised if the two weeks unfolded and we can't see anything out of these two grand juries. >> all right. thank you. now to the massive shakeup in professional sports as two rival leagus agree to join forces. this is the pga tour announcing a merger with the saudi backed liv golf circuit. and kaylee hartung has more. >> reporter: dueling tours have driven a wedge in the professional golf world. and now an about-face by the pga striking a surprising partnership with its biggest

rival. >> what we're talking about today is coming together to unify the game of golf. >> reporter: the pga tour announcing that it will merge commercial operations with liv golf and the saudi arabia public investment fund controlled by the saudi crown prince. the new for-profit entity yet to be named will also include the european tour, reshaping the landscape on the heels of the saudi backed tour up ending it. >> we will be investing in the growth of the game of golf. >> reporter: as the news first broke on cnbc, reverberated on social media. even golfers were blindsided while liv tour members celebrated. phil mickelson who joined for $200 million, tweeted awesome day. critics say that it is using the league to distract from saudi arabia's history of human rights violations. just last year, pga commissioner jay monahan address the implications of doing business

with the saudis. >> i'd ask any player that has left or any player that would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour. >> reporter: hours after the announcement, defending his reversal. >> i recognize that people are going to call me a hypocrite. and anytime i've said anything, i said it with the information i had at that moment. >> reporter: as the pga ban liv golfers from playing in their events, others turned down the lucrative offers reportedly in the hundreds of millions. the pga and liv filed compeing lawsuits and rorycilroy was a loyalist. >> they shouldn'ter here. they have paid a lot of money to play on a different tour that is trying to buy the professional game. >> and let's bring in writer from golfchannel.com, rex

hubbard. and also from "squawk box" andrew ross sorkin. rex, i'll start with you. wow, what do you make of what happened? are you surprised? >> i think wow is the perfect way to put it. i think everyone in the golf word was sort of surprised by this, caught completely off guard. as you heard in that report, this is a complete 180 by the tour and the leadership. jay monahan, rory mcilroy, they were all dead set against this league and what it would mean for professional golf. and now it opens the door for some sort of merger. we don't know what it will lk like, but a surprising and long day for the commissioner. >> yeah, what was the arc here? what was jay monahan's journey from one side of this to the other? >> in a call yesterday with reporters, he essentially said that they are better together and he is talking about the two entities. not necessarily being liv golf but the public investment fund of saudi arabia and the pga tour. if you talk to players and you

sort of break this down and you see the arc as you called it, there is ongoing lawsuit that would being a huge grain on the pga tour and it resources and probably something that this agreement put aside. there will be no more litigation between the two. the other half of this, just the straight competition. i think that you can make an argument that the pga tour is better right now, but with the funding and resources of the public investment fund behind liv golf, i think that the commissioner came to the realization that they are better together. >> andrew, clearly the saudis are on a campaign to boost their image in the world of sports. they are buying up football/soccer players at the rate of perhaps even messi. financially what does it do for the saudis and second money question, are they going to pay off those golfers who turned down whatever it was, $700 billion or million or something that one of them turned down? i mean, will they pay them off?

>> i don't think that we know. clearly -- look, the saudis put pga in a box. that is what happened here. you could argue strategically if this was a grand negotiation, they played it just about perfectly. but money talks and that is what happened here. there is a big cultural question about that money for the players who turned it down. the rorys, the tigers who turned it down and now they will have to play side by side with those folks who took the money. and then the secondary question what does it do for saudi, again it puts them in position not just as an investor, it will make them money but also pole position. talk about soft power. that is what sports is. and i would say that there is an even bigger implication about this deal which is to say is

this not just golf. we talk about soccer. but at some point all of these leagues will turn global. and it is not clear that they will be american made anymore. the pga was a not-for-profit. the nba is a not-for-profit. major league baseball is a not for profit. what is to say that they won't go to a couple players other time and do something similar. so i think that there is a really large culture money question that will come up over the next couple of years as these businesses, which they are, they are business, go global. >> rex, rex, rex, you got monahan who says yesterday, you know, anything i said at the time, i said it working on the information that i had at the time. okay, that's great. last year he accused the sawedky

s saudis of being behind 9/11. so how does he square them being murderists with being great business partners. is getting a huge saudi payout? >> i don't know about the saudi payout. but yesterday was a long day to the commissioner and he was asked multiple times. so it was an hour and a half meeting with players up at the canadian open and i talked with players in that meeting, and it did not go very well. and then a 20 minute meeting with the media. that didn't go well. because he was asked these exact same questions. and there is no answer to this. i'll go back to the ongoing litigation that is between liv golf and the pga tour. one of the discovery disputes is in the district court in washington, d.c. and it focuses on this, the pga tour funded a pr firm to dig into the idea that the 9/11 families would be against this saudi backed league. they paid for that. so now you are in the awkward position of where you have to

justify now you will work with them. there is no easy answers and it will haunt him for a while. >> all right. rex, thank you for coming on. and meanwhile golf alliance marks a new opportunity for former president trump to benefit from his relationship with saudi arabia. on his social media website yesterday, trump called the merger a big beautiful and glamorous deal for the wonderful world of golf. as the morning times notes, since the establishment of liv golf, mr. trump and his family have aligned themselves with liv against the pga tour at a time when the golf establishment in the united states and britain had moved to shut trump courses out of major professional competition, a trophy that the trump family had long sought. liv soon became the trump family ticket back into the rarefied world of global tournaments with events last year held at two

trump courses and a third added to the season schedule. jonathan lemire, that right there would give me pause, but then again, i'm not a huge talker in the golf world. but my god. >> yeah, donald trump cheer leading on here in all caps as he is want to do on truth social. and there are reasons for this. as just noted, the pga tour had largely frozen out trump courses. he has a number of golf courses both here in the united states and overoverseas. and to not being able to host events, it hurt him. and this is just the latest in a series of really close connections between donald trump and saudi arabia. let's remember trump as president, presidents usually make their first trip by tradition either to canada or mexico. where did donald trump go? saudi arabia. he went to riyadh, his first stop as president of the united

states. he defended saudi arabia after jamal khashoggi was killed. we know jared kushner had close ties to the crown prince while trump was in office. and since then saudis have made a significant investment in kushner's private business. so a lot connecting trump and saudi arabia here. and i'm sure part of the thought here, soft pow foer here, soft pow for saudi arabia, but also thinking if donald trump becomes president again, we have once again improved had relationship and we can take advantage of it in a couple years time. >> going to be interesting. andrew, let's turn to the u.s. economy. janet yellen had her first interview since the debt ceiling deal passed. and she was asked if the dhi was a little too strong. let's look. >> i've been saying now for almost a year that i see a path to bringing down inflation while maintaining a strong labor

market. and i think the data we've seen recently and over the last year suggests that we're on the path with those characteristics. and so clearly the labor market remains quite strong with unemployment close to 50 year lows and very healthy job creation. but on the other happened, we are seeing some signs of easing pressures in the labor market which may be important in terms of bringing inflation down. job openings have declined somewhat suggesting a bit less pressure in terms of firms adding to their workforce. but overall, the labor market remains very strong and inflation has now come down about 4% from its peak. and i think that we'll continue

to see progress over the next two years. >> so andrew, obviously it is a balancing act. everybody i'm talking to, i'm sure everybody you are talking to, they can't believe how strong this economy remains, the jobs numbers just keep coming. you look at manufacturing startups and all the investing in manufacturing. i mean, what europe would do to have our economy right now. >> i'll tell you that -- and i wish i could have shown you a different clip because right after that, i said to her when you are thinking about the context of employment versus inflation, what unemployment would have to look like in the united states for inflation really to come down. and she said -- i thought it was telling, she said i think that it has to start with a 4. meaning right now we're in the 3s in terms of percentage unemployment. she thinks that it has to go to 4. historically that would be low, but relative basis, that still means that potentially millions

more people have to be out of work. i know this is a hard thing to comprehend behind. but more people have to be out of work to stabilize the economy in terms of inflation. and i think that was a remarkably telling comment from the treasury secretary. so things are strong, but the reason i asked are things too strong is because of exactly of this idea that she used to be -- she used to run the fed. she knows. >> all right. andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much for being on this morning. and coming up on "morning joe," germany is preparing to host an unprecedented military exercise involving 25 nations and 250 aircraft. we'll have the latest out of europe on the planned show of force from nato. plus the secretary of the u.s. army will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe." r. you're watching "morning joe."

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developing news out of europe. germany is preparing next week to host the largest air deployment exercise in the history of nato. 10,000 participants and 250 aircraft from 25 nations will drill during the training set to take place between june 12 and june 23rd. the u.s. is sending 2,000 air national guard personnel and roughly 100 aircraft. quite a symbol to the world. joining us now, secretary of the army, honorable christine warmouth. and joe has the first question.

>> madame secretary, thank you for being with us. and so our troops are the best and the brightest. we're stronger than we've been relative to the rest of the world and anytime since world war ii. and yet we've got a lot of politicians in washington, d.c. trashing them. i know that you don't want to get into the politics of it all, but i am curious, all of the trashing of our men and women in uniform by republicans, all of this suggestion that they are weak and woke, all of the suggestions that they wish that they were more like russians, is that hurting our recruiting in middle america? >> joe, i would say first of all, we're not a woke army. we're a ready army. we're certainly far more ready than the russian army. the united states army is the world's greatest land fighting force. and i do think that that constant drumbeat that we sometimes hear about a weak military, a woke military, is a little bit of a negative drip,

drip, drip that is undermining our recruiting at a time when we really can't afford that. >> and so what would you suggest to people on the hill, politicians that keep tearing down our men and women in uniform, keep suggesting that they are weak and woke? i always say anybody who thinks that our troops are we can, just ask the russians who bum rushed them in syria a couple years ago. they won't be doing that again anytime soon. >> and members of congress say we want to help you with recruiting. my answer is if you want to help, talk about all of the opportunities that the army offers to young people. talk about how ready we are, how hard we are training, how lethal the united states army is. that is i think the -- that is the message that i'd really like to see members of congress sharing with their constituents back home. >> and give us a state of play, if you will, as to the army's

recruitment but also where it is being deployed. what sort of role is it across the globe? we certainly know the support it is playing to ukraine at the moment. but also tell us about the pacific as well. >> sure. right now the united states army is in 140 countries around the world. and just in europe alone, we've got 40,000 soldiers who are there standing shoulder to shoulder with our nato allies. they have been training 10,000 ukrainian armed forces, getting ready for them to support the counteroffensive. and in the in-de-indo pacific we have training where we engage with our ale allies to demonstrate combat readiness. >> can you talk more about the

u.s. army's role in training ukrainians? what kind of training are you giving them arrest how you've been involved in that? >> we've been training ukrainians in a variety of ways about but focus first in germany, we've been focused on what we call maneuver warfare which is being able to bring together infantry, armor, aviation to work together on the battlefield. and that is really what brings lethality. the russians have struggled in that area. so we've worked hard to get ukrainians ready for that kind of warfare. and we've done a lot to train them on our air defense systems. there is a lot of talk about patriots. we've given patriots to the ukrainians and we've trained them to use those systems which are complex. but they have done that to great effect. >> and the united states secretary of the army, thank you

very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. thank you. and coming up, prince harry takes the witness stand in a case against a british tabloid. and we'll get you caught up on that story next on "morning joe." on that story next on "morning joe. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site,

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so jonathan lemire, let's talk about what happen on the house floor yesterday when republicans in effect turned it over to democrats. some very angry petulant far right republicans decided that they were going to suddenly care about the deficit. i mean, i listen to this stuff and it is hilarious. chris christie is right. the republicans raised the national debt trillions of dollars during donald trump's time in the white house and now suddenly they want to take it

out on kevin mccarthy because kevin understood republicans have to pay for the debt that republicans ran up over the path several years. and so tell us exactly what happened on the house floor and how they thought banging the republicans' head against the wall would? how help them. >> 11 far right republican, mostly members of the freedom caucus, who angry at the deal kevin mccarthy made with president biden to raise the debt ceiling, well, they took it out on him on the house floor siding with all democrats to block a pair of gop bills to protect gas stoves. the legislation itself was going to symbolic, but there is a sense that mccarthy can eventually work around this, but it should be noted that this is the first rule vote to fail since november 2002. so it does speak to republicans,

at least a faction of them, being angry at mccarthy and of course the backdrop to all of it, it doesn't take much for mccarthy's grip on the speakership to be threatened. so they are at least displaying some frustration. >> yeah, if you are joe biden, you got to say am i the luckiest guy in the world or what. these republicans keep proving that they just can't run anything. they keep -- even when there are as fight dr. freddie said about riddick bow, even when they have lucidity as they had in coming to this deal, here come the far right republicans to say hold on a second, hold my beer, we'll make this party look completely crazy and we'll turn the floor

over to democrats an burn things down in a way since we haven't done in 21 years. i mean, seriously?burn things down in a way since we haven't done in 21 years. i mean, seriously? democrats have to be thanking their lucky stars for these hypocrites who spent ourselves in to get and now found jesus. >> yeah, spasms of lucidity. look, the white house kind of underestimated the degree to which republicans would hold together over the debt ceiling negotiations. they were caught a little flat footed. they had expected them to fall apart and didn't expect kevin mccarthy to be able to come to the table with a deal. and so i think that gave kind of -- it gave the republicans a pretty strong hand in the course of those negotiations. so it does seem odd that having come out of a win, they would now decide to get into a situation where they are potentially going to be falling apart again. why not, you know, why not

capitalize on the win in order to give you strength to go into the next round of inevitable negotiations. all right. still ahead, a comedian took the advice. live while you are alive and quit her day job to tour america. and she will tell us about that journey straight ahead on "morning joe." realtor.com (in a whisper) if we use kevin's college fund, we can afford this house. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to find options within your budget. good luck young man. realtor.com to each their home. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities,

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prince harry is set so to return to the stand after becoming first senior royal to testify in court in more than a century. yesterday it stemmed from a lawsuit that accuses the publisher of british tabloids of phone hacking and other unlawful acts. nbc news correspondent megan fitzgerald reports. >> reporter: a media frenzy as prince harry arrived. he's the first senior british royal to testify in more than

130 years taking on mirror group newspapers, one of several media lets he and his wife accuse of invading their privacy and gathering information unlawfully. the duke came out swinging in the tense courtroom describing what he calls incredibly invasive media coverage since he was a child. and in a written statement alleging journalists had blood on their hands, that constant tabloid intrusion, inciting of harassment led to his and meghan's decision to flee to the u.s. and journalists have hacked his mother's voice mail, which he said was vile and made him physically sick. but the newspaper's attorney hit back exposing gaps in harry's memory, the prince admitting he couldn't recall if he even read some of the articles he said caused him distress in his written statement. the attorney denied they hacked harry's phone and said articles about the prince were based on legal sources like royal press

releases, tips from those close to him, and information from the public. harry remained calm, though at times appeared visibly flustered during hours of intense interrogation. >> how did it go in court for harry today? >> i think given that this was a more aggressive form of questioning, he will be quite pleased with how he performed. he did keep his composure. >> for those of us, a generation that grew up with harry and certainly after the tragedy of his mother, i think we all are pulling for him. i know i am. let me speak for myself. i'm pulling for the guy. i feel so badly for him. i can never imagine, none of us can imagine the hell he's been through. that said, i think the royals may have it right when they say never complain, never explain.

it's just like the more he tries to explain, the more he complains, the deeper he gets in it, doesn't he? >> you're right. there's a tragedy here that is a family tragedy. his riff with his brother, i think, will become to be a source of huge pain for him. this is a little different from him writing the book because it's a fairly black and white legal issue. in 2011, the news of the world, which was the murdoch newspaper had to be shut down in the uk because it was found guilty of phone hacking celebrities in order to get dirt on them and run gossip on them. so i think that's where he's harking back to. is this another instance of that? a royal is not used to be challenged, but it's going to be an interesting few days with him as he goes through that process. >> back in 2019 comedian and author blithe roberson wanted to

breathe and read some poetry. she was drawn to as piece called "moments." inspired byes its message of actually living your life while you're alive, roberson quit her job and decided to hit the road. borrowing her step dad's prius, she embarked on a solo journey across america to visit its national parks. the friends she made and the memories she captured are the subject of her latest book entitled "america the beautiful? so what was the job you left? describe it. >> i was a researcher on "the late show." i googled a different celebrity every day, which is something i did for tree before they paid me

to do it. i researched joe when he came on to promote "welcome to the monkey house." >> how did that go? >> it was one of my favorite assignments. i watch it every morning. >> is that why you left? >> joe has inspired me to follow my dream and go on a road trip. >> it's such a great story. talk about your biggest surprise when you did this. not the biggest surprise, what was your most fulfilling thing about this and what did you learn from it? >> when i was thinking about going on a trip like this, i thought about how there were these travel narratives about men. because men had more freedom to just leave their life and go find adventure. so i was very cognizant of how am i as a woman not free to do this kind of thing.

and the biggest surprise for me on the road is that i was pretty free. it's pretty easy for a white lady to go on vacation. but my whole trip was made possible by my family, who let me borrow their car. my friends, who i stayed with, and all the things i loved on the road were communities and people looking out for each other. >> i note in the book's title has a question mark at the end of it. so two parter for you. why the question mark and what's the answer? >> so i was like i cannot put out a book like this without a question mark because i don't want to get cancelled. i wrote this book and went on this road trip when donald trump was president. so at my job, every single day i was learning the worst things that were being done. i'm sure you had the same experience. i don't want people to think i uncomplicatedly love america,

but i think it's a very physically beautiful country, which definitely is one of the reasons i i quit my job to go see all these places. but i think also there's a quote in the book that a place belongs to whoever love it is hardest and tries to shape it. that's where i ended up. there's so many things i love about america. i don't want to just say the worst people in america get to decide what it is. i want to be part of deciding what it is. >> i love that. >> did you ever get lonely? >> i got so lonely. i missed my friends. i really missed dating, to put it in a way on television. but i did see a the lot of people along the way. and i met new friends. >> the new book is "america the beautiful?" thank you so much. i'm sorry joe drove you out of

your desk job. that will do it. the music he brought to the table was pretty good, i guess. but meeting you just traumatized her. >> you know what stephen colbert said that night. he said joe has suffered for husband music all these years. now it's your turn. katty, your final thoughts? >> i think a road trip sounds like a great idea. i'm going to do the road trip through italy and spain in the olive belt. i think that has a certain ring to it. >> it's mostly between new york and d.c. for me in terms of that's as far as i get. it's about the smoke.

>> joe, in our final thoughts, what are you looking at this week? >> our friend chris who was with us is leaving cnn. and i saw a beautiful tweet thread, who talks about how he's never met chris and chris butted heads at cnn, but as kurt said, anybody will tell you. tom brady, anybody that succeeds will tell you that you learn the most when you fail. our friend chris has learned a lot over the past year. he apologized on monday for that. and chris has learned so much. and anybody that bets against him, you're going to lose. chris licht will be back. we're thinking about him today.