andrea mitchell picks up with more news right now. right now on "andrea mitchell reports," a federal grand jury in miami hears testimony today from former president trump's top aide after he left office, who heads his make america great superpac. "the new york times" is reporting that mark meadows has given testimony in a separate grand jury meeting in washington on both the mar-a-lago document investigation and the january 6th attack on the capitol. the 2024 campaign is heating up with former vice president mike pence jumping into the race next hour in iowa. with a video this morning. >> we are better than this. we can turn this country around. different times call for different leadership. >> this after chris christie comes out swinging against trump during his campaign rollout in new hampshire.

>> a lonely, self-consumed, self-serving, mirror hog is not a leader. >> steve kornacki will join me from the big board on whether these two can find a lane. we are waiting for updates from the vatican. the sudden news that pope francis is undergoing abdominal surgery and we remain in the hospital for several days. good day. i'm andra mitchell in washington. we are on indictment watch after a number of developments in separate grand jury investigations into former president trump. joining me now is ken dilanian, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, "washington post" deputy

national editor phil rucker and jackie alemany. take us through the latest. including new details about key testimony from secret service agents, mark meadows and that top trump insider. >> that's right. a lot going on. it started this morning when our cameras caught taylor budowich, this political aid to former president donald trump, walking into a courthouse in miami. he later issued a tweet i will read to you. i fulfilled a legal obligation to testify in front of a federal grand jury. i answered every question honestly. i will not be intimidated by the weaponization of government. the mystery is why he is appearing before a federal grand jury in florida and which case? is this the documents case, another case? i've been speaking to legal experts. they are perplexed why this grand jury is operating in florida, even as the one in

washington that had been hearing testimony in the classified documents case appears to have been dormant. we are reporting today that some two dozen secret service agents testified before that grand jury in washington, among the many people who have testified about what -- things that went on at mar-a-lago with regard to the classified documents there. "the new york times" is reporting that mark meadows, trump's former chief of staff is among those who testified. it feels like they have gotten testimony from almost everyone who could have had any visibility over those classified documents, including almost everybody that worked at mar-a-lago. what is the relationship between the florida grand jury, if any, and the documents case? >> jackie, your team at "the washington post" has been all over these investigations, multiple interactions with taylor. what insight can you give us on the access he had, on the multiple levels, including the fact that he heads the superpac that raised hundreds of millions

of dollars and was being investigated to see whether that money could have been fraudulent because it was raised to try to overturn an election the president arguably knew he had not won. >> yeah. we still really don't know why taylor budowich appeared today on the contents of his appearance before the grand jury in miami. we do know that as you noted, this is someone who did have a close -- does and did have a very close relationship with the former president and was working for him as his spokesperson during that time period that the national archives and trump's legal team were going back and forth with each other about the recovery of the 15 boxes of documents that trump initially gave back to the national archives. again, we don't know what he might have said to the grand jury. we do know in general that

witnesses have been asked about a number of things regarding their interactions with the former president, conversations about turning over materials as we have reported. this has become a two-track investigation with the mar-a-lago boxes, part on potential obstruction efforts to return the boxes and the classified angle. did the former president knowingly and willfully retain classified documents? >> phil, let's also drill down on this. budowich has issued on twitter an angry reaction that ken was talking about. let's talk about -- he was a reluctant witness, in other words. >> that's right. you know, we shouldn't necessarily take what he put on twitter to be -- to assume that that's the tone he took in the grand jury itself. remember, twitter is such a

public platform. budowich remains a figure in trump's political orbit. i think the tweet is in the kind of performative angry spirit in the kinds of messages that donald trump himself has been issuing about the investigation. but we just don't know what he may have shared behind closed doors with the grand jury and how he figures into this overall investigation other than the fact -- the very important fact that he was a key figure at trump's side in those months and period after he left the white house when the national archives was trying to get these documents back and would have had some understanding of what trump and the people around him were doing. >> as well, phil, talk to me about the former president's reaction. he is angry on social media. >> yeah. he has been angry at this investigation on social media since, i think, the day it

began. it's not that much of a surprise. but you can see in the former president's public statements and reactions sort of a ratcheting up of pressure and a sense that this investigation is very much in the final stages. remember, earlier this week the lawyers representing donald trump met with justice department officials to make their case for not charging the former president. that's the type of meeting that typically would happen near the very end of an investigation when charging decisions are about to be made. so trump knows that context. he knows that jack smith, the special counsel, is at the stage now where he is really considering seriously whether to bring any charges against him. >> chuck, with all of your experience and with all we don't know about what's really happening inside a secret grand jury, but what can we read into the fact that budowich, who would know a lot about what was going on, would be involved in conversations, in movements of documents perhaps, a lot of

context there, as well as things on the financial side, does that mean you might expect there be an indictment or multiple indictments in miami in the southern district in florida as well as in washington? that it would all be down there? would it be in both places? what do you think? >> yes, maybe and possibly. >> all of the above. >> all of the above. venue is an elastic concept. many crimes are begun in one place, continued in a second place and are culminated in a third place. over time, if prosecutors have determined that venue is better in the southern district of florida, then that's where they ought to bring charges. if they think that venue is sound in the district of columbia or anywhere else for that matter, then that's where they can bring the charges. i wouldn't make too much of it. the united states has jurisdiction over federal crimes. venue is simply the place where

that crime is charged and tried. it could be that there are parallel investigations, other charges, other defendants that are appropriate in florida and some that are appropriate in washington. it could be some other purpose all together that we have yet to discern. it could simply be this case over time has sort of appeared to prosecutors to be better situated in florida. we will learn this. but i wouldn't worry too much about it. what matters is that the investigation is serious and ongoing. where it is ultimately brought, i think, is less momentous. >> what about the timing of any indictments? is there any way to ascertain how close they are to finishing? >> they are ways to rattle the box and try to figure out what's inside of it. one of the things that happens near the end of an investigation, lawyers for a defendant or for a target will make a pitch to senior

department of justice officials that their client ought not be prosecuted. that happens near the end. it's also possible that another witness goes into the grand jury and says something that causes prosecutors and agents to want to go back and talk to three other witnesses that they have talked to or do some additional due diligence. when you hear about the meetings that are occurring at the department of justice, you know that you are near to the end than to the begin. but there may be more work for the government to do. time will tell on that as well. >> chuck, thank you. ken, of course, phil and jackie. more than 100 million people in the northeast and mid-atlantic states, including new york, philadelphia, washington, d.c., as far as dede -- detroit are breathing

smoke. in binghamton, the sky was turned bright orange. the haze caused by wildfires in eastern canada. it's causing irritation and ris -- respiratory problems. they are warning people to limit outdoor activity. especially elderly, in treatment, others vulnerable. two of former president trump's enablers, now his rivals for 2024. that's next when "andrea mitchell reports," just 60 seconds. stay with us. you are watching msnbc.

♪ shelves. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. so caramel swirl is always there for the taking. former vice president mike pence has joined the presidential race, taking on his former boss, donald trump, who

inspired the january 6 rioters to chant, hang mike pence. pence joins a crowded field, including chris christie, who blasted trump in his campaign launch last night, and north dakota governor doug burgum. joining me is dasha burns and steve patterson. and steve kornacki at the big board as well as former republican congressman from florida david jolly also with us. dasha, to you. in iowa, where pence will focus his campaign starting at 1:00 eastern and is likely going to face a lot of questions about the january 6th insurrection. >> reporter: yeah, that's exactly right. let me talk about where we are right now. iowa is where the former vice president sees fertile ground for his brand of that traditional faith-based republicanism. he plans to make this a focus for his campaign. they plan to visit all 99

counties, i'm told all 70 plus ranches in here. it is going to be an uphill climb for any candidate taking on the former president, let alone his former running mate. this is because of the day that you mentioned, january 6. there are a lot of folks in the republican base who feel that the former vice president betrayed trump on that day. how he tackles january 6 as he campaigns is going to be really critical. in a sitdown i did with the former vice president, i asked him about this issue. listen to what he said. do you believe that donald trump incited that riot? >> i think the president's words that day were reckless. they endangered me and my family and everyone serving at the capitol. but on the legal question about

legal culpability, i'm less certain. >> reporter: still hedging his words a little bit. the question i have is, once he formally launches his campaign, will he go after trump more directly, or will he keep a softer edge? >> steve patterson in fargo, north dakota, we see the governor is launching his bid right now. he is not well-known, but he can self-finance. he has a lot of money. what's his pitch? >> i think his pitch is the energy i feel permeating in this room, that after covering trump rallies for the last seven years, this feels nothing like that. this guy wants to be your father's level-headed, fiscally minded conservative. focusing purely on the issues. wants to get away from the culture wars that he says have permeated through the republican party. this is a guy that wore a mask during covid, does not invoke

the name trump or desantis or pence. he is purely focused on being that like-minded fiscal conservative. the question is, coming in at 1% of the vote, and not having a national profile, can he do that? burgum believes there's a silent majority that exists in this country that wants a guy like him. that's what he is focused on starting today. >> steve kornacki, how rare is it for the vice president, the former vice president mike pence, to take on his former boss? he was completely loyal to him up until january 6, when there was a huge choice, a legal choice, a moral choice for him. despite the threats to his life and all the rest. >> yeah, it's a rare occurrence. you got to dust off the history books to find the examples. there's three of them where something like this has

happened. 1800 thomas jefferson unseated the president john adams. back in those days, they were rivals. they had run against each other four years earlier. rules back then, second place made you vice president. they were rivals the whole time. then you look at 1844, former president van buren and his former vice president both sought the democratic nomination. that might be the closest parallel. neither won. it went to james polk. the only other example, 1940, fdr was going for a third term. his own vice president, john garner opposed him. garner got nowhere at the democratic convention. roosevelt was re-elected. in terms of the pence/trump dynamic, trump starts out ahead of everybody. trump, 43%.

pence at 3%. you heard dasha mention this, the lingering sense of some republican voters that they think pence was disloyal to trump. it shows up when you ask republicans in this poll, do you have a favorable, unfavorable view? pence, 35% of republicans view him unfavorably. the only republican with a higher unfavorable is chris christie. his number, 47%. to what dasha was saying about the pence strategy, it looks like it is iowa, iowa, iowa. mike pence with deep relationships with evangelical christian leaders, deep ties to the community. it's those candidates who excelled in the iowa caucuses. ted cruz, rick santorum, mike huckabee. nearly two-thirds -- in 2016, 64% of the caucus electorate identified as evangelical

conservative. pence is hoping to tap into that. the problem is you go to the next state, new hampshire, none of them were able to follow it up with a win there. you just don't have the same concentration of evangelical christian voters. >> if you wonder what his message is, in the wifi password for the people covering him out there, it's kept his oath. that is the message from mike pence. david jolly, let's turn to chris christie. he laid into donald trump last night, going after him on immigration, ivanka and jared kushner. >> the person i am talking about, who is obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, and who always finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong, but finds every reason to take credit for anything that

goes right, is donald trump. i am going out there to take out donald trump. here is why. i want to win. i don't want him to win. >> david, nobody has been as blunt as chris christie. not surprisingly, going after his former boss. well, the former president. but 47% of republicans view vory unfavorably. how does he beat trump? >> he likely doesn't. if you are not donald trump or ron desantis, you are focused on a very early state strategy. you don't have the name or financial resources to get out of iowa and new hampshire, south carolina without a win. that's true of chris christie. he cannot win on this message of beating up trump. what i'm looking for is chris christie to have a clarifying role in this now large group of republicans running. he can challenge all the candidates, not just trump. ron desantis has lied about the

free state of florida, about his response to covid. we know what christie did to rubio. is he willing to challenge the other candidates and strengthen them or fundamentally kneecap them, we will have to see. >> thanks to you on political trail. hospitalized at the vatican, pope francis having abdominal surgery. the latest on his condition coming up next. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. i'm kareem abdul-jabbar. i was diagnosed with afib. when i first noticed symptoms, which kept coming and going, i should have gone to the doctor. instead, i tried to let it pass. if you experience irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, you should talk to your doctor. afib increases the risk of stroke about 5 times. when it comes to your health, this is no time to wait.

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the vatican announced today that 86-year-old pope francis has been hospitalized in preparation for abdominal surgery which will require putting him under general anesthesia. it will require him to be hospitalized for several days. the vatican said the pope will undergo abdominal wall plastic

surgery which they decided was necessary because of painful and worsening symptoms from a hernia. joining me now is anne thompson. this is not an emergency. it was scheduled. but he had other appointments this morning. >> reporter: he did. he went through them. he had two private audiences, which is the vatican's word for meetings. then he had his weekly general audience out on st. peter's square. from the people who saw him said he looked great. he rode around in the pope mobile. he stopped to kiss babies. we heard he was taken to the hospital right after that. that's where he was hospitalizes in march for the bronchitis. we are still waiting word to see if that surgery has happened yet. there's no official word from the vatican. for pope francis, this is a pretty big decision. he mentioned in an article or an interview with the ap in january

that he knew he had to have this happen. it requires general anesthesia. he said he had a bad experience with coming out of the -- dealing with the anesthesia after he had his colon surgery in july of 2021 and had 13 inches of his colon removed. that kept him from getting knee surgery. clearly, whatever is going on here with his hernia, it really -- he apparently had no choice. >> what about his upcoming travel schedule and the rest of the summer? >>. >> reporter: i think that's why you are seeing this now. he has two big trips planned. one is to go to world youth day, which is a week, that's in portugal. that will happen at the beginning of august. then at the end of august, the pope will go to the periphery. he will go to mongolia where he just appointed a new cardinal. that will happen. this gives him enough time to

recuperate. in fact, within the past hour, the vatican announced that they have temporarily suspended all the papal audiences until at least june 18th. >> anne thompson, thank you for all of your experience on this subject. appreciate it. a graduation tragedy. gunfire ruining what should have been a joyous day at a virginia high school ceremony. two lawmakers trying to restrict ghost guns. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. bc (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal

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maisha: shared leadership has to do with... michael: acknowledging parents as equal partners. narrator: california's community schools. grant: community schools lift the voices of folks that have traditionally not been heard whether they're parents, students, community groups. john: it's shared decision-making with parents. they're saying that these are the priorities that they want to see for their kids. wendy: it allows us to create the school that our students deserve. rafael: community schools are innovative,

and they're working. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. an 18-year-old virginia high school student and his faith were killed in a shooting tuesday after his high school graduation ceremony on the virginia commonwealth university campus in richmond, virginia. sean jackson, just 18 years old, was shot down moments after receiving his diploma, along with his father. aaron, this is such a tragedy. you were raised in richmond. you know the area. you know the campus. talk to me about it. >> reporter: we moved to outside city hall here. we had a conversation with some school leaders. the young people in this community are traumatized by what they saw and experienced yesterday evening at the

conclusion of the graduation, as is the case -- my sister graduated in that theater 20 plus years ago. i was in that theater for a graduation. hundreds of people pour out. they are on the sidewalk. they are joyous, taking pictures, hugging, happy about the ceremony that unfolded. in yesterday's case, they heard gunfire. in that moment, so many people started to scatter. there was a stampede as one person described it of people trying to run back into the theater, run toward the park across the street to get away from the gunfire they heard. in the end, there were seven people shot, two of them have died. 18-year-old sean jackson, who had just graduated. his stepfather, who was there to attend his graduation, and the outrage that this community is experiencing now is something that is deeply felt. i want you to hear a little bit of what the superintendent had to say about what happened yesterday.

>> i'm tired of seeing people get shot, our kids get shot. i beg of the entire community to stop. just stop. >> reporter: police were able to take a suspect into custody quickly. he is a 19-year-old. he is being held without bond after pleading not guilty at an arraignment earlier today. police did tell us that sean jackson, the 18-year-old, and the suspect did know each other. they had a year-long conflict and exchanged words yesterday before he went back to his car and got a handgun and came back and opened fire. >> when is it going to end? just awful for that community. thank you. thanks for being there. this latest shooting comes during gun violence prevention

month. two lawmakers are trying to ban ghost guns. crimes using ghost guns are up 1,100% in the last four years. congressmen, we will get to the legislation. the trial is underway for scott peterson, the parkland resource officer who stood by for 45 minutes. his trial could set a precedent. what do you want the jury to decide? >> thank you for having both the senator and i on to talk about gun violence prevention. i want the jury to render the correct verdict. in this instance, i believe he needs to spend time behind bars.

those students walked the halls of that school every single day trusting that their sro would be there in their time of need. it's not the sro's fault a shooter showed up and killed 17 people. but it is the fault that he didn't follow the shooter in and stayed outside. if nothing happens to the sro, what message does that send to other sros? they don't have to help students in their time of need. they can sit outside while 17 people are gunned down. parents and students depend on their school resource officer to be there in their time of need. i want to see the sro who didn't go into the building and didn't help those students, i want to see a just verdict against him. >> it's similar to what happened in uvalde, texas, with uniformed police. senator, let's talk about the bill that you and congressman moscowicz are proposing. who is most likely to use a ghost gun?

why focus on this? >> these 3d guns, they can be digitally manufactured. if the blueprint is available. the danger of these 3d guns is that they are untraceable. there's no serial number on them. with $200, a 3d printer can be purchased to make a gun. they are undetectable. they can make it through metal detectors, which makes them more dangerous. third, it makes them very accessible to people who otherwise could not pass a background check, who are domestic abusers, who have a capacity to actually create in their own home a 3d gun that can go out and kill people in our society. >> congressman, there's been a

big uptick in artificial intelligence since you first introduced this bill in 2021. how are the ai advancements impacting the availability of these schematics? >> as the senator just said, ghost guns is a new frontier. as technology continues to change, we don't even know where this can go. the senator for a long period of time -- i'm just joining the fight -- we are trying to enhance laws to protect family, protect kids in schools. ghost guns undermine every law that's currently on the books. there are people who can't pass a background check, but they can print a ghost gun. there are people who have guns taken away from them because they a red flag law is used against them, but they can print a ghost gun. that's why ghost guns are so important for us to start regulating. >> senator, what about the issue of guns in had campaign?

congressman, you worked in the desantis administration in emergency management. what do you hope is going to happen on the issue of guns? >> well, so far, we have had more mass casualty events in our country than we have had days in this year. this issue is only going to grow. we are going to have a movement that builds to turn nra into not relevant anymore in american politics. it's building. it's led by young people the same way they are leading on climate change. this issue is getting ready to introduce itself into the 2024 election in a way it has never been seen before. >> my colleagues across the aisle are wrong on this. they are not talking to parents. when parents drop their kid off or put them on the bus or walk them to school, they are in the back of their mind worried their kid may not come home. that is something that parents and children should not have to

deal with in this country. we are failing parents. 80% of americans -- over 80% of americans want guns out of the hands of people who are mentally ill. yet my colleagues across the aisle think that's a bridge too far. they are out of touch. i think we need to make it a seminal issue. >> thank you both very much. we just got word that the pope's surgery has been completed. it went off without complications. it lasted three hours. he was general anesthesia. that was the plan. as we say, fortunately, without complications. we will bring you any updates as we get them. coming up next, teed off. families of 9/11 victims are livid over the pga merging with the liv tournament. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. " onc

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betrayal by the pga tour and the commissioner. joining me now is ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor to president obama. pga tour commissioner jay monahan had warned pga players against signing with the rival. let's compare his comments from a year ago to what he said yesterday to cnbc. >> i would ask any player that has left or any player that would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour? we are announcing to the world on behalf of this game, we're coming together. it's less about how people respond today, and it's all about how people respond in ten years. >> it seems like it was all about the money. first he was concerned about saudi arabia's history. he compared it to human right s

abuses. donald trump is saying it's a huge victory. he had been kept out of pga tour golf at his resolves after january 6. who are the winners here? >> the saudis and money and everybody who bet cynically on the liv golf tour. we have seen this movie before. what we saw, for instance, after the murder of -- a dismemberment of an american journalist, "washington post" journalist. what happened is the saudis have tried to demonstrate that their money can bring them in from the cold. they have methodically taken people that were their critics

and because of the money that they have turned them into partners. what is so cynical here is that at the beginning of the process, the pga used 9/11 in their capacity to take on liv. the emotions of those families, they played on those emotions to draw contrast. once the check was big enough, they signed on the dotted line. that sends a message that all this was about really was money. it wasn't about a stand. it wasn't about anything other than the fact that the saudis can write the biggest check. >> star players like phil mickelson were lured with $200 million contracts. tiger woods turned down three-quarters of a billion dollars to stay with the pga. how do they feel? it seems to me that golf has a lot to answer for. now the saudis are trying to buy contracts of some of the world's greatest soccer players, what

europe would call football. >> that's right. we try to teach our kids to do the right thing and you will be rewarded. in fact, all the players that said no to all that money, they lost out. every player that said, i will take the highest bidder here at the liv golf tour, they are the winners. they were rewarded for going with the people that ultimately report up to the man who based on the u.s. intelligence reporting ordered that killing of jamal keshogi. we see a desire to use sports to essentially help his reputation reputation. he doesn't want people to look at saudi arabia and think about the oppressive things he's done, think about sports, leisure, things things he's hosting and

new citys. it's been a methodical effort since the khashoggi murder to rebuild the reputation of saudi arabia by buying into sports and culture and business and elements of u.s. and european society, and at certain points we are demonstrating that that works, even, you know, frankly, the president of the united states, you know, said he makes saudi arabia a pariah on the campaign and then visits there. if you have enough oil and enough money, you can buy your way into having a different kind of reputation. >> family just showed pictures of the secretary of state antony blinken right today meeting with the crown prince the other leaders in saudi arabia for all of the strategic reasons, of course, that you as a former national security official know well. >> yeah. i think on the geopolitical side what saudis have done quite cleverly is to leverage the fact that there's this now competition between china and russia and the u.s. and our

allies, and they're kind of being a free agent and they want to be courted by both sides. i'm sure that united states is motivated by some fears that you're going to see saudi arabia drift into that kind of china column, particularly with the war in ukraine and high energy prices and, obviously, with the interest in normalization of israel. what i would hope is we don't consistently have to check our values at the door. i'm practicing mag tick enough to know you have to deal with people around the world, different political systems than ours, but we should be able to stand up for some basic things and everybody should go back and consider what they said after jamal khashoggi was killed and ask themselves, what's different today? why do those things not hold anymore? whether it's the u.s. government or the pga tour or whether it's anybody that has interest in saudi arabia, you're going to be dealing there, but i wish we could at least infuse more values we talk about into those

relationships. >> ben rode, thank you very much. and coming up next, the super majority, the supreme court played with ethics concerns, poised to hand down more decisions which could reshape america. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. re watching "l reports" on msnbc. try downy light in-wash freshness boosters. it has long-lasting light scent, no heavy perfumes, and no dyes. finally, a light scent that lasts all day. downy light! (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants finally, a light scent that lasts all day. and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. our heritage is ingrained in our skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy.

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the supreme court is poised to hand down major decisions this month, possibly as soon as tomorrow, that will impact voting rights, affirmative action, lbgtq rights, amid ethics issues plaguing the court after gifts to justice clarence thomas from a republican mega donor and the center of controversy over its decision to repeal the right of abortion overturning roe v. wade. joining me is michael, author of the book "the super majority how the supreme court divided america" president of the center at nyu and former speechwriter to bill clinton.

so the supreme court in the center of controversy we've ever seen, your book is so timely, talk about the information about clarence thomas that is more that could come out, because there are financial disclosures that he wasn't disclosing, some of it was not required, there was a loophole around travel from friends, but the salary to his wife, there were other things, the house that was bought, his mom's house. >> right. some of this is effectively the subsidizing of his lifestyle and it is part of the collapse of public trust in the supreme court that we've asean. in public opinion polls it's the lowest ever. there's a super majority of six conservative justices making big moves. last june they overturned roe v. wade, issued the most sweeping second amendment ruling by far in the country's history, began to make it harder for government agencies to act on things like climate change, and more to come. i think that it's going to be a big issue.

there's already a huge backlash brewing. that's the way it's been throughout american history, when the court overreaches there's a response. i think it's the beginning in some ways of a shift in our political era. >> there's a response to overreaction, but the new precedence has been set by senator mcconnell of when nominees can get hearings, merrick garland being the classic example and how do you see this changing? >> you know, i think there are things that can be done. some of this is just the polarization of this moment politically, but something like a binding ethics code for the supreme court, nobody is so wise they should be the judge in their own case, that's something that could happen now. 18 year term limits with a regular appointment every two years by the president is very, very popular with the public, with republicans and democrats. that would help take some of the poison out of the process and bring the court more in line with the country i think over time. >> what about the voting rights

case that is pending also. >> that worries me a lot. this supreme court has gutted the voting rights act. they're considering the shard of the law left, the great civil rights law that had a big impact in the country. there's every reason to fear that they're going to finish the job of weakening it significantly and then the affirmative action where they end race in college admissions. these are big rulings by nine unelected lifetime appointed government officials and that poses a challenge in a lot of ways to our democracy. the country is moving in one direction but the court is veering sharply in another. >> the leak of the draft and then the dobbs decision, how did the abortion ruling change public attitudes towards the court? >> you've seen a real backlash towards the court on that ruling. think about the midterm election. the democrats did better than in decades for the for the party controlling the white house. a lot of that was reaction to the dobbs case.

you see the ballot initiatives and supreme court elections in states all over the country. people are roiled up about that one in particular. i think the next question is, will they start to connect that ruling to the second amendment ruling, which makes it so much harder to regulate guns in our country at a time of tragic shootings and rising violence. >> michael wallman, you've done it again, the super majority, how the supreme court divided america. it's quite an achievement. thank you very much. come back soon. it's going to be a lot to talk about in the next two weeks i think. >> yes. that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports" follow us on-line and on twitter. "chris jansing reports" starts right now. good day. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. one day, january 6th, and

defending democracy, balanced against 20 years of service. as mike pence steps into the presidential campaign just moments from now, we'll find out which one republican voters value. plus, a bushel of tea leaves to read in the trump classified documents case. brand new details about witnesses in florida and d.c. and a new hint about when all of this might come to a head. and any surgery involving an 86-year-old is cause for concern, but that concern magnified a thousand fold when the patient is the pope. the latest on the operation that just wrapped up in rome coming up. but we start with a presidential run that pits political resume against political reality. mike pence set to announce his bid in iowa, seemingly checks box after box on the republican wish list. he's a former congressman, governor, vice president, who in past years, would likely have been a true contender.