minutes today to walk from my house to the subway. how dangerous is it to be indoors. we had a broadway show go on pause because the lead actor couldn't breathe. she had to be taken off stage. she's fine, instead, an understudy had to take over. how dangerous it indoors? >> it can be incredibly dangerous if you do not have air purifying mechanisms and air circulation. that's why i'm telling people turn on their air conditioning or fans or something to circulate the air. if you do have the air purifiers that you were using during covid, that can be helpful, too. that could be a dangerous time. airnow.gov, that can help. >> dr. kavita patel, thank you very much. that right there is going to do it for me right now. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone, it's

4:00 in new york with the skies above us are hazy from those canadian wildfires. we are all under air quality warnings. we're going to get to that story later in the broadcast. but we begin with what is shaping up to be a white knuckle day for the disgraced twice impeached now indicted legally liable for sex abuse ex-president thank foss fast-moving developments in special counsel jack smith's investigations, plural, into donald trump. today, a federal jury in miami is back in action hearing witness testimony as part of the special counsel's investigation into whether the ex-president mishandled classified documents. or obstructed government efforts to retrieve those documents after leaving office. and it was not just any witness, it was one of trump's closest aides. a former trump spokesman who have as super pac. saying that prosecutors weres

partially interested in taylor budowich, after sending boxes of material from his private home to the national archives, trump left a lengthy statement saying he gave everything back to the federal government. but budowich did not release trump's statement after consulting with advisers, some believed trump had returned everything. not a great day for the now disgraced president for the proverbial folks in the room before the grand jury. it comes on the heels of news that two dozen of trump's secret service agents have been subpoenaed or appeared before a federal grand jury in d.c., in the same classified documents investigation. as well as that bombshell reporting from "the new york times" that none other than mark meadows, trump former chief of staff and unofficial consigliere has testified as well. according to abc news, meadows, quote, answered quotes on

trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election and trumps mishandling of classified documents while he was out of office. oh, to be a fly on that wall. what did prosecutors ask mark meadows? the possibilities are endless. maybe they asked about his role in turning over clarified documents to the national archives. of his role of the fake elector scheme in georgia. he travelled to georgia, how odd for a white house chief of staff. perhaps they asked about 2,913 text messages that mark meadows turned over to to the january 6 select committee before he stopped cooperating with it. it is fitting within the one-year anniversary of the public hearings coming out, mark meadows is now back at the center of the national conversation. meadows was the january 6 select committee's white whale, refusing to testify and cooperate, but casting a long shadow over virtually every second of those hearings. listen to cassidy hutchinson. >> and did you go back, then, up

to the west wing and tell mr. meadows about your conversation with? >> i did. after he left the campus that evening, i went back up to our office and i found mr. meadows in his office, on the couch, scrolling through his phone. and saying some interesting conversation with rudy, mark. sounds like we're going to the capitol. he didn't look up from his phone, said something to the effect of, there's a lot going on, cas, but i don't know, things might get real, real bad on january 6. >> i remember pat saying something to the effect, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. and mark responded something to effect, you heard him, pat.

to which pat said this is crazy, we need to be doing something more. >> miss hutchinson, did you have any conversations with pat cipollone? >> on january 3rd, mr. cipollone had approached me knowing that mark hasn't raised the prospect of going to the capitol on january 6. mr. cipollone had a briefly conversation where he said to me, we need to make sure this doesn't happen. this would be legally a terrible idea for us, we have serious legal concerns if we go up to the capitol that day. >> miss hutchinson, did white house chief of staff mark meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6. >> mr. meadows did seek that pardon, yes, ma'am. >> we know why, because you don't seek a pardon if you think you're innocent.

let's start with the former leader, tim they'vefy, "the new york times" reporter and msnbc contributor, katy barnhart. katy, the first time since the select committee's work finished. i want to ask you what you would ask mark meadows. i have the same question today, but i'll add, now that we have such a mountain of evidence, in large part to the investigative work you and your colleagues on the 1/6 select committee did is there any question in your mind that the one man that, quote, hanging mike pence and articulated in the sworn testimony by cassidy hutchinson and pat cipollone and others? >> well, look, he's at the center of the everything. he's at the president's right hand throughout all of the movements. all of the multiprongs of the

plot that the select committee articulated. mark meadows was right there. he was right there on january 6. he was right there in efforts to potentially change personnel of justice. as just indicated, he went to georgia before the certification, after the election. he's involved with contacting congress. he's such a vital player in all of this. and if he's cooperating, it's hard to say what he said in the grand jury, but if he's truthfully cooperating, it's a pretty significant step for the special counsel. a step that the select committee is able to take. >> i know we don't have any visibility as to what the circumstances are around the grand jury. but the committee made clear, and cassidy hutchinson in that final comment talking about him seeking a pardon. mark meadows made clear that mark meadows felt he had criminal exposure and that's why mark meadows, quote, sought a

pardon. what are the scenarios for him cooperating now with jack smith's criminal probes? >> well, look, it's very common that a conspiracy investigation, and that's what this is, the special counsel is looking at conserving action to disrupt the joint session. some co-conspirators who have exposure have a strong incentive to cooperate with the government and reduce that exposure. so, i don't know if there's been some sort of deal made between meadows through counsel and jack smith and his team and is essentially not being charged, or charged without a specific sentencing request, in change for cooperation. that may be what's going on here. it may be that he's testifying in the hope that he isn't somehow implicated or indicted. my guess is there are extensive discussions between meadows' counsel and the special counsel, sort of articulating the terms of his testimony, the

expectations on both sides, before he would engage in testimony. >> tim, we know kash patel has been given some limited immunity in the documents probe. we know that that is a tool, that this special counsel, jack smith, has used. is it possible that meadows' lawyer was waiting for georgia or the federal investigations to mature to a point where he understood his client's criminal exposure and waited to strike a deal? i mean, mike schmitt who has one of the bylines on the story talked about how this is one of the last people on the innercircumstance that we're hearing about. he's coming after we heard about mike pence going before the grand jury. >> yeah, no question, any good lawyer would want to have a clear sense from the government as to the status of his or her client before facilitating

cooperation. i'm sure there are discussions. mark meadows has exposure. there's no question that his actions before and on january 6 give rise to participation in conspiracy. given that, that creates leverage for the special counsel to use that exposure as a means to get mr. meadows to cooperate. now, it's a business transaction. special counsel has to give up something to get that. and it's likely, either like mr. patel has gotten or maybe others, or again, a promise of conveying to the judge cooperation, that thereupon sentencing, we don't know what the terms are. we know he was right there in the center of the action the way it happened for multiple events and that's why this is so potentially significant. >> let me show you, i think the most revealing of it that was developed around mark meadows came from two sources in the

congressional probe. it's from the trove of texts from mark meadows' phone that adam kinzinger described. and the taped up discussions of cassidy hutchinson. let me go through it with you, tim. but let me start with what to me sounded like knowledge of violence. knowledge of specificity of weapons that the insurrectionists were carrying. and as far as what was outward facing, not a real sense of action, not a real plan that was ever revealed to the congressional investigation. this is cassidy hutchinson on that. >> what was mark's reaction, mr. meadows' reaction, to this list of weapon that people had? >> when tony and i went in to talk to mark that morning, mark was sitting on his couch and on his phone which is something

typical. it was like what you know, informed him like this is how many people outside with mags right now. this is how many weapons possible. he listed more weapons out there, i just don't recall. and gave him a brief but concise explanation, but also fairly thorough. and i remember distinctly mark not looking up from his phone. i remember tony finishing his explanation. and it takes a few seconds for mark to say something. i was, sir, mark, did you hear him? and mark then chimed in, like, all right, anything else still looking down at his phone. and tony looked at me and i looked to tony, and tony said, no, sir, do you have any questions? he's like, what are you hearing? i looked at tony, and i said he

just told what you was happening. he said, yeah, i know. then he looked and said have you talked to the president? tony said, yes, sir. all good. >> so this felt like this presentation of evidence like the sort of two book ends of both trump's knowledge and meadows' knowledge of the violence that was planned and the capacity of violence, in the form of specific types of weapons they were carrying. it is sort of bolstered from radio traffic which isn't from capitol police, but personnel detail if they're planning to move the president. but the planned otr. and the difference between an otr movement and a different kind of movement. tell me how meadows cracks the code on this evidence that was very much developed, with what was available to the committee, but maybe not fully pierced without meadows himself. >> yeah, so meadows is the gate

keeper. he and the tony that cassidy hutchinson referenced there is another deputy chief of staff, he works directly for meadows. he's actually a secret service agent detailed to the white house at the time. meadows, once the follow-through information reaches the president, that's why meadows' awareness is very close to the president. as miss hutchinson says, he asked toni ornato, is the president aware? and mr. ornato says, yes. there's lots of information leading up to day of january 6 and the weapons. and the president himself opening the doors to the oval office and hearing the crowd that had gathered through the plaza the night before. another rally, mike flynn and a bunk of people were talking, he said these people are really angry.

so the president was specifically aware from that testimony, from the sort of rise rising frustration in the crowd. and then getting all kinds of warnings and others that had gathered about people in the crowd with weapons. about what was being stacked -- flag poles and needs being stacked outside the white house. it's very obvious to anyone, again, known as the gate keeper, about the presence of very dangerous weapons and implements on january 6. so if he is cooperative, if he's testifying, his awareness of all of that information about dangers, very specific danger presented by the crowd and the president's awareness of that, very significant. >> and also in both the white house chief of staff, obviously, one foot in the oval office, the other from the command center at the willard, i mean, what questions do you want to know? i think it was congressman jamie

raskin who led the hearing about the extremists. it felt like evidence was developed connecting actions of the extremists and desires of the president to his invitation, quote, come to d.c., it will be wild and afford. but what would you need to know from meadows to firmly connect those two dots? >> again, as a gate keeper, i would want to know, to whom does the gate swing open. and if mark meadows is in communication with not just secret service agents and toni ornato, but steve bannon and roger stone. and people in direct contact with extremist groups that would be hugely important. we developed information that at one point was planned to go january 5th, the night before. he did not end up going in that was at least contemplation that

he went to that suite where rudy giuliani and others were staying. we don't know exactly if he served a role of connectivity between the president and extremist groups, apparently that would be something as the gate keeper you that want to focus on. >> tim mentioned the inside outside game. the inside game was the doj coup plot which i know you reported on extensively. this is from one of the messages that mark meadows turned over in the prestonewalling phase. it's from scott perry. perry writes to meadows, mark, you should call jeff. i just got off the phone with him and he explained to me why the principal deputy won't work specifically with the fbi. they will view it as not having the authority to enforce what needs to be done. meadows, quote, i got it i think i understand. let me work on the deputy position.

clearly, at least in this message, expressing a willingness, i don't know, i would describe it as enthusiasm to work on the deputy position. this is evidence made clear that if nothing less than a coup atop doj was planned by trump and meadows. just talk about the connective tissue that meadows can provide with what was developed by the congressional probe, but still lacking a real direct ties -- not lacking any ties but meadows and trump talking specifically? >> yes, and mark meadows, he's saying i'm going to work on the justice department and the officials there to try to get them on board. they were supposed to be sort of the official mouthpiece for this plot to say conclusively that the election had not been won by

biden. and the votes needed to be counted again. you see meadows here relaying to a trump ally, i would work on them to get them to be part of this larger plan that we've developed. there are a couple things interesting here. one, of course, he needed a more credible outlet to give way to this lie. because so much center has been blown by people like rudy giuliani it was not going to be credible. two, you see meadows in a coordinating role. but i'd be curious to know from meadows, when you did this, was this your plan and your initiative? and did you truly think the election would be overturned despite all of the evidence to the contrary that justice officials had given to you? or did donald trump direct you? well, then the buck stops with you for a large plan for a free and fair election.

or for somebody else like say president. i think that is the question we at least had, when we were reporting these things out when we saw things were directed, and some of the direction seemed to be coming from the white house. but all of the direction seemed to stop short vis-a-vis trump and the documents. >> tim, do you want to take a stab at where the evidence points to in your mind? >> yeah, to pick up on what katy talking about, scott perry, pennsylvania, the freedom caucus. scott perry who knows this guy jeff clark who is working on the bogus theories of the election fraud proposes the acting attorney general. bill barr wasn't going to misuse the justice department, neither would be his successor jeff rosen. so perry develops this idea of

personnel change, and meadows, his old buddy from the freedom caucus who works directly with the president. so meadows is right at the center of personnel change in justice. just as he is in all of the prongs of the plot. the plot in georgia because he goes down there. contact with members of congress. all of that, mark meadows is right in the center as the gate keeper to the president. and absolutely, as katy said, they'll want for develop all of the doj story from that perspective. >> also, trump's got you in georgia, he travels to georgia, and joe biden has won the election. and there's all sorts of evidence developed by the committee. i know there's some evidence that the senate judiciary started developing even before the committee was formed about the coup doj, it includes jeffrey clark, it includes this

trip of meadows to georgia. >> each piece seems so wild. trying to overturn the justice department, for example, who would have thought. and yet, these things are all part of a piece of a larger plan to use several states in order to delegitimize the results of the election. so, georgia, again, was a test case. inside the justice department when officials are arguing whether or not to send a let's, when they believed there had been fraud, even though top doj officials knew that wasn't true, when jeffrey clark wanted to do this, presenting this as an option, he kept saying this will be basically a test case. and there are other states that we can send a similar letter to. georgia was sort of -- i think georgia's interesting because it's where you see this larger plan begin to be activated. you see pushback from state officials and the justice department on it.

georgia wasn't the end-all and be all. they wanted to do more. it's just where things started. so imagine if a georgia official had not pushed back. imagine if department officials had not pushed back. imagine if department officials had not fought with trump and their jobs in order to stop it it would have been the first state to fall. but now we know it as the state that all of these people in the trump orbit were suddenly focused on, that's because they were focused on it initially. when you see that large sprawling plan had that involves members of congress, people who work in the white house and outside of the white house and the justice department, you have to wonder who is coordinating it all. right now to tim's point, the evidence suggests a person who had a hand in all single one of those pieces is mark meadows. i just wonder if mark meadows is going to want to leave investigators to leave with the impression that indeed he was the coordinator or somebody else was directing him. >> tim, what do you think the

answer is? who do you think he could be helpful in making a case against, is it trump, is it eastman, is it rudy, is it all of the above? >> yes, yes, and yes. mark meadows has communications with rudy giuliani, with eastman. he goes to georgia, as katie was saying he goes to georgia, he calls the secretaries of state to investigators, he's on that notorious january 3rd call with brad raffensperger. he's actually on the call when it happens, so he's right in the center of that. and he, on january 4th and 5th, has conversations with jerry eastman, that pat cipollone is excluded from. remember, he was going to have a meeting with the president, vice president -- but it was not

because he disagreed. and the president didn't want that. so, yes, she has information about other co-conspirators, not simply the president. and key for georgia, to katie's point, fani willis, i believe he's testified in the georgia grand jury and might be charges that she's evaluating in georgia. >> we've been drilling down to january 6. obviously, while we have both of you, we want to drill down on the jack smith investigation. has nbc news report, mark meadows answered questions about that. he was in the room where the unpacking went as well. no one is going anywhere. plus, lonely, self-serving breathtaking grip. those are words used by donald trump ally chris christie to explain his buddy donald trump. the crowded 2024 field is

getting more crowded but there's only really one person calling it is with donald trump. we'll show that to you. and more on the possible looming indictment from the special counsel. a live report outside of the florida courthouse. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm feeling this moment. along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions

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annika. i found the bomb. ok johann. there should be a blue wire and a yellow wire. giveaway for a chance to win cut the blue one. they're both blue! visionworks. see the difference. we're back with tim haphy and katie benner. let's switch gear to the documents investigation and share with you what "the washington post" is reporting this afternoon. quote, justice department prosecutors are planning to

bring a significant portion of any charges stemming from a possible mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. at a nearby federal court in south florida, that's according to people familiar with the matter. the legal rationale for such a move is that the bulk of the conduct at issue in the investigation occurred in the southern district of florida, in and around trump's palm beach residence and private club. even if much of the investigation has been handled by a grand jury in washington, d.c., these people said. that approach by prosecutors does not rule out the possibility of some charges such as perjury or false statements being filed in connection with the law enforcement interviews that took place there. tim, is this a rather normal thing? or what do you see that maybe we don't see with this news? >> so, hearsay is admissible in grand jury. so it doesn't really matter if you present evidence to multiple grand juries because you can now

be summarized for the grand jury that returned the indictment. there are witnesses in different places. and for lots of reasons it might be more convenient to call a witness in grand jury in florida and a different one in washington. it all has to come together some, totally speculation here, but maybe part of this is the department thinking about legitimacy in the case. that if they bring the case in florida, that sort of rebutts, the criticism that everybody is out to get the former president. and to bring a case in his own backyard in a more conservative state like florida, it's more legitimate. and with the indictment that they believe in their case and can prove their case anywhere, maybe they'll think it has more credibility if it's brought in the jurisdiction in which the former president has more supporters. again, i don't know that. i have no inside information about this. i'm just putting my former

prosecutor hat on speculating about what factors might influence a venue for possible criminal charges. >> i mean, there are a million different ways to slice that if it turns out to be true. how pervasive the political climate is in considerations with doj. the other way to look at it, katie, would be the strength of the evidence has developed. take me inside, i know you and your colleagues are all over the story. maggie haberman's twitter thread, she's reporting that trump told her say few minutes ago, this is about an hour old that he's not been told he's getting indicted. it's contradicting from trump's social feed that's been all caps for 24 hours, screaming about fascists. what does that go towards for the state of anxiety? >> the state of anxiety is high, we've seen that with the mueller investigation and both of the

impeachments. he says it's danger, he flips out. he makes contradictory statements. he said he's going to be punished, not be punished. i don't think trump's state of mind should indicate to the rest of the world what is about to happen. i think it's more just about his state of mind. interestingly, on tim's point about florida, i just wanted to note that florida prosecutors and investigators have been working on the mar-a-lago case for a very long time. and when jack smith became special counsel, some of the very first prosecutors that he met with as he was being briefed up were in florida. because so much of the action, in terms of the question of whether or not trump obstructed the investigation, that action happened in florida at mar-a-lago. so, florida has been a player in this investigation all along. just pretty quietly. and has only shown up in a couple different news reports. but prosecutors in florida have been along for this entire journey. and have provided key evidence

to jack smith. so, it wouldn't be unusual for him to think that part of the case would be brought there. also, you know, people who do criminal appeals work, there are some folks like that on jack smith's team doesn't really cover the appeals process. because no matter who wins or loses a case, if a case is brought, either side i think is pretty likely to appeal. around whether or not there is some argument about venue or the justice department monkeying around with it. so there would be a real conversation about that too. but whether or not we'll see donald trump charged tomorrow, i think donald trump's mind about that is changing pretty much every minute as he feels increasing anxiety about whether or not he'll be indicted again. >> and on the mark meadows being before that grand jury on this probe, as well as january 6, tim, i mean, mark meadows is the guy who, and this is what his

attorney has reported, quote, without commenting on whether or not meadows has testified for the grand jury or any other proceedings, meadows has maintained the commitment to tell the truth, where he has a legal obligation to do so. so if he's before a grand jury, i take that to mean that his lawyer is staying his course, because his client has committed to, quote, telling the truth. he's telling the truth about the documents. he's sort of a one-man case, with all of the thing declassified. trump is debunking it as well. and he ruffles feathers, and can't show you that because it's classified. but trump is there when meadows was there. meadows is involved in the nine or 11 months when trump is going back and forth before the doj get involved about retrieving the documents. meadows knows everything about what he took, what was

classified, what wasn't. and could probably tell an interesting story about why he basically abandons that effort at some juncture when trump brings in a team of lawyers who have all now become witnesses against trump in the documents probe. >> yeah. it sounds like he's from before the administration, with respect to the preservation of presidential records to what happened after the president left office, with respect to that tape recording of trump knowledge that he possessed something classified. and the process by which presidential documents continue to be transferred to the national archives and discussions with them. so it sounds like he sort of straddles both investigations. but these are distinct investigations that the special counsel is conducting. i expect that if there are charges, they'll be separate. and it will not be in the same cases, the january 6 obstruction proceeding case. and then the mar-a-lago possession of documents. and mark meadows, very well, may

have information about both. we developed a body of evidence of a very, very lax approach to adherence to the presidential records act. we talked to a lot of witnesses who said that there was very little they knew on that process. that the president would sometimes tear things up and throw them in the trash. and they would fish them out to tape pieces of paper together. and stuff from the archives have been pieced back together from pieces. cassidy hutchinson talked about mark meadows burning in his fireplace. talk about a lax approach to records act. can't get more lax than that. he's in charge of that whole process as chief of staff. the legality to people's documents, the official business of the administration, from what lots of witnesses said that was not something that was front and center in his mind. and therefore, not in the minds of lots of people. they want to talk to him about all of that. >> i mean, tim, could that speak

to criminal exposure on the documents front, too, in was some kind of attempt to obstruct the government's efforts to have them return to it? >> yes, absolutely. if he has evidence that the president is mindful that these are presidential records. remember, they don't even have to be classified. they have to be in possession of presidential records. it's worse, a different crime, if they are classified. and he has knowledge that the president mindfully maintained those documents. now, does he himself participate in that? again, you have to wonder whether or not he's a co-conspirator in both of these cases. and so the cooperation is immunized. i don't know the facts about the 9/11. that happened outside of rules. but from what will we do know from our investigation, again,

very, very lax attendance to stringent requirements of classified and presidential records. >> tim and katie benner, two of the foremost experts in this political history. thank you for starting us out today. up next for us, jared kushner and ivanka trump intent on rebuilding their reputations were called out bigly last night for breathtaking breath, a $2 billion payout from the saudis. chris christie making that his opening message, his opening salvo, in his opening campaign for presidency. we'll talk about his entry in the 2024 presidential primary race and the intent to burn it all down in the house that trump built. that's next. coffee grinder -

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♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh. [ tires screeching ] jordana, easy on the gas. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break. yeah, we let you pick your own due date. good to know, because this next scene might take a while. for a great low rate, go with the general. the grift from this family is breathtaking. it's breathtaking. jared kushner and ivanka kushner walk out of the white house and months later get 2 billion $ from the saudis. $2 billion from the saudis. do you think it's because he's some kind of investing genius? or do you think because he was sitting next to the president of the united states for four years doing favors for the saudis? that's your money.

that's your money he stole. and gave it to his family. you know what that makes us? a banana republic. that's what it makes us. so, he may get 30% again. i'm not sure. maybe he'll get more. maybe he'll get less. but let me tell you what he'll know in 2024 that he had no idea in 2016, he's in a fight to get it. >> that was new and for the record, literally nobody thinks that jared kushner is an investing genius. that's former new jersey republican governor chris christie. and that was his opening message. he's officially thrown his hat in the ring to run for president, in a republican primary, in 2024. he came out of the gate swinging at donald trump, at jared kushner, at jared kushner's wife, ivanka kushner, in a launch of an event in new hampshire, christie took aim at

the front-runner in a way that nobody has done yet. it's a real turn, evolution, if you will, of a man who advised president trump during his presidency. and who was among the first, i think he was the first establishment president to endorse donald trump in the 2016 republican primary. now, make no mistake, he faces a very steep climb, an already crowded primary and christie is not on top of the field in current polling but he made it clear he's going to do everything he can to burn trump's political house down to the ground. watch. >> a lonely, self-consumed, self-serving mirror hog. is not a leader. the person i am talking about who is obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, who always

finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong but finds every reason to take credit for anything that goes right is donald trump. >> joining our coverage, editor-at-large of bulwark, msnbc contributor, charlie sykes, also joining us the founder of iraq and afghanistan, veterans of america, the post of the independent americans podcast, paul reich is here. i want to show you guys one more piece of sound because christie's campaign is very different from christie's last campaign where he did not criticize donald trump and the first to endorse him. it earned him the ire of mitt romney and others. christie is not just teeing off on trump. he's teeing off on the rest of the field. let me show you this, charlie. >> we have pretenders all around us, who want to tell you pick me. 'cause i'm kind of like what you picked before.

but not quite as crazy. but i don't want to say his name. because for these other pretenders he is for those of you who read the. hp books like volodymyr, he is he shall not be named. >> charlie sykes, he's not on the top of the republican polls, he's a, i think, long shot candidate, but he's the only one running like this? >> let's stipulate he really doesn't have a shot, he's not going to win this nomination. but he has a lot of baggage, including the way he labeled donald trump, but, damn, that was impressive performance art there. i have to say we knew he was going to come in and punch up to donald trump. i don't think we realized quite how spicy he was going to be. he made it very clear, he's

holding nothing on the field. he's going to say all of the things that other republicans have said in private and going to say it in public and do it as forcefully as possible. so this is the difference between the 2016 campaign. i mean, i still have the ptsd about what happened. but no one in the republican ranks took on donald trump from the beginning with his specificity, going after his lies, his duplicity, his position on policy issue. and going after the grifting and the family. that basically showing he's not going ramping up, he went from day one. again, he's not going to win this election, but there's a real chance, nicolle, that he could turn out to be one of the most consequential candidates in 2024. because if donald trump can be taken down in a republican primary, it's going to be by somebody like chris christie. i don't know whether he influenced mike pence, but mike

pence was also surprisingly spicy and aggressive in going after donald trump. so it does feel as if we have at least entered tentatively, the beginning of what might possibly be a new phase of this campaign. >> i never disagree. i don't know if i would call mike pence spicy today or ever. but, here's the other piece. the political analysis gets stuck in this sort of lazy calcified, i'm not accusing you of this, charlie, he can't win, so why. liz cheney isn't in congress, but she did a whole lot, can't use the word here, a ton of damage to republicans in the midterms. he helped create democracy letters. he helped tell a story using all of trump-supporting republicans of the danger that trump uniquely past and future poses in a democracy. >> yes, christie is right, but he's complicit. he made this mess.

now he's riding on a white horse like he's the man of integrity trying to clean it up. the message is right, that people are fed up with the grift and with activity and sellouts, i'm sure they're talking about liv golf and what's happening there. he's right in substance. he's just the wrong guy to do it. americans are looking for authenticity. he looks like a guy that's going to change his jersey depending on the way the wind blows. christie going to win points? no, they can start to chip away at godzilla over time. i still think trump is going to prevail. it makes him sound more moderate and more sane in this country w truly patriotic who aren't worried about rainbow flags on beer cans but they're worried about selling the white house. to the saudis and any number of other people, apparently, in the next couple weeks. >> i'm going to give you a chance to come back on me on everything i just said.

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- did you see my tail when that chewy box showed up? - oh, i saw it. - sorry about the vase. - can we just say vase like normal people? - fine. - i always wondered what it would be like to have a tail. - maybe you did one time. and maybe a thousand years from now, i'll be tail-less using that chewy app to get you great prices on treats. - i'm pretty sure it takes more than a thousand years- - vase. - pets aren't just pets. they're more. - vase! - [announcer] save more on what they love with everyday great prices at chewy. (air whooshing) (box thudding) we're become. charlie, i feel like i used all your brilliant analysis to tee off and make a different point. i want to come back to you on both your pence argument and this idea that we don't know what we don't know. it is a fluid political moment. and we have an unprecedented day in new york city. i don't know that the air quality even in the days -- right, it was localized in and

around 9/11 of the it is apocalyptic. it is destabilizing and scary. there are precious few trusted voices. we don't know what the contours of this contest will be. >> and to make it clear, we don't always get to choose our heroes or our allies. so i do think if nobody else will do it, then chris christie is the right person to do it now. you look around on who else will say these things? i would love for liz cheney to be up there. but let's be honest. i wasn't trying to do the punditry. i'm saying even though he won't win this election, i think he'll be consequential. i think it is also welcome. and i think it will put pressure on other candidates to say, what are you going to say about all of this? if you want to take down donald trump, you have to take down donald trump. why are you not saying the kinds of things that chris christie is saying in i think it will be quite entertaining and i think

it will be quite worth while listening to. >> just to build on charlie's point, i think chris christie is saying things that a lot of people have known and said privately and i think it will force them out of the shadows. and some of them are very comfortable in the shadows. this $2 billion that jared kushner got from the saudis when steve mnuchin who did a lot better was talked about at a much higher volume privately than was ever really noted or reported. it may force democrats, even, to open an investigation into kushner. >> i don't think christie will be our hero but he can break the seal and open up the conversation. especially in republican circles, moderate circles. and he's a jersey guy. a jersey guy getting down with trump, fighting on his kind of turf in his way. scrapping it up. and i think that will score points and do some damage on trump. to your larger point, people are looking for steadiness, for integrity at a time when it feels like everything is under

attack and everything is for sale. the saudis sold out america, after attacking america, and pga out sold out on d-day and spit in the face have 9/11 first respond here's are right now in new york suffering with the smoke. it feels like 9/11 in this city. i'm talking to 9/11 first responders like myself who are really feeling this. and we're reminded of what it was like on 9/11. now the country is kind of feeling what that was like and we're looking for leaders who can take us through it. who can just manage crisis and manage fear and take us forward. chris christie won't be the guy who had it. i think other leaders will step up but it he can set the tone. >> i need to have you stick around. we're at the end -- i need to you stay over the top. you were the first person to put liv golf on our radar. there is been big a development and i want to button it up with you. charlie sikes, your insights are always appreciated and invaluable around here.

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mark meadows is our star witness. even though he didn't end up cooperating and he's in contempt, there is an initial tranche of text messages that were gold mines and they helped develop a lot of leads. he's always been a back stabber. you just read the story with john boehner where he literally got on his knees and cried for

forgiveness from john boehner and then a few weeks later stabbed him in the back again, i think he's just power driven. all he cares about is power. if you think you're a moral man, i just need, the ends justifies the means. i have to do whatever it takes. >> hi again, everyone. former chief of staff mark meadows was in the words of adam kinzinger the january 6th's star witness without ever stepping foot into a committee room. just imagine what members of the special grand jury and jack smith are thinking now. now that we know meadows has testified in smith's twin probes, although we do not know his level of cooperation. meadows became such a key part of the investigation due to the thousands of text messages he handed over before he abruptly stopped cooperating with that investigation. text messages that reveal that in nearly every flash point of

the expresident's effort to overturn his defeat in 2020, mark meadows was the quarterback. he was the one who was receiving text after text from fox news anchors telling him to have the president go on tv, or go to the briefing room and call off the coup, the insurrection, the violence. mark meadows was at the seat of that. who did don jr. text when he was worried the insurrection would ruin his father's legacy? he texted mark meadows. who engaged with congressman scott perry about wild conspiracies of a rigged election including the italian satellites had switched votes from trump to biden? it was mark meadows. who did jimmy thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas text when she wanted trump to fight the election results, it was, of course, you guessed it, mark meadows. of course, wasn't only the

copious text messages that revealed meadows' deep involvement in every aspect of the attempted coup. there was another white house voice on the line when they expressed the secretary of state and it was it's, you guessed it, mark meadows. according to the stunning testimony by his own deputy who said among many things, it was mark meadows who knew that things were going to get, quote, real bad. according to reporting, meadows also answered questions in front of the grand jury about smith's other probe. the one looking into trump's handling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. today updates out of miami in that case first, the grand jury heard testimony from former trump aide taylor who was asked about a past public statement he had made on behalf of donald trump. and second, the "washington post" reports that doj prosecutors are planning to bring a significant portion of charges in that case to a federal court in south florida, rather than washington, d.c.

that's according to people familiar with the matter. monumental updates in the special counsel's twin probes is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, is live for us outside the courthouse in miami, and former top justice official and msnbc legal analyst andrew wiceman is back. director of the public policy program at hunter college is here at the table. andrew, you rocked our world at the beginning of the week with your declarative statements about the inevitability of charges and the potential timing of them. we come to you first for an update on what you've seen that maybe we don't see as a former prosecutor and senior fbi and doj official. >> i think the part that seems most revelatory in the last 24 hours is the location where lisa is right now, which is until

recently, everyone was focused on washington, d.c., or where these charges would be brought. and now, at least the reporting is, and it seems fairly solid, there is certainly a lot of activity in florida. from viewers who might be thinking, who cares, as long as there are charges, whether it is d.c. or florida, why does the venue matter? it really could make a huge difference. the jury pool is different. the judges are different. and remember, this is the place where you had a judge like eileen cannon who really slowed things down and was making quite, sort of erroneous rulings, so much so that the circuit court, the appellate court, had to reverse her, not once but twice. also, d.c. is a location where the court is very used to dealing with classified information. there's an expertise there.

in terms of speed, getting this case to trial, the venue matters. so something that i think everyone is very focused on is where this case will ultimately be brought. but as you've noted in the last hour, and in the intro, there's just more and more signs that the case is coming to fruition. >> so, lisa, i don't know that we can have a better set-up for your report than andrew weissman saying you are aware. it all appears to be happening today, at least it appears. we don't know. take us inside taylor buddowich. what we know about his role in the documents. particularly what seems most likely into the obstructive efforts by trump to try to foil the government's work. >> well, taylor was in the grand jury for roughly an hour today,

nicole. when we first spotted him, we were surprised to see that he was the witness that print outlets have been reporting would be testifying in miami this week. however, when you take into consideration that he was the white house spokesperson until september 2022, it all begins to make sense. as you noticed, he made a series of statements about the investigation that started with the national archives, to recover those documents. and then morphed into a criminal investigation with the fbi and the department of justice. in particular, what we understand was he was examined about a particular statement he made in february 2022 after trump returned the first 15 boxes to the national archives. the department of justice has evidence that trump's initial draft of that statement was far more declarative about returning all and any classified documents after consulting with lawyers and advisers.

taylor dialed that back. why? what were your communications with trump? what were your communications with other people? most importantly, this suggests that the focus here in florida is not just on lower level people in trump's orbit but squarely on the former president himself. what did he know about the classified documents in his possession and was he advised that he couldn't say what he wanted to say because he still had documents he shouldn't have had in his possession. >> andrew, the list of documented and investigated episodes of trump telling people to say things goes all the way to kyiv. i think it was gordon sondland that trump said to just say that you were going to investigate the bidens. to trump on the phone with rosen and do not lieu saying, just say it is correct. my republican congressional

allies will do the rest. to the muller report. three or four, where they said it wasn't true that he wanted mueller fired. you can pull back the layers in multiple efforts to investigate the truck in and every one of them holds an episode of trump asking someone to just say something to the press that isn't true. . >> absolutely. and what donald trump was looking for, first, impeachment. i have to say, this is where, what mark meadows has to say. it's just so important. as you noted in your discussion, that he could really be like a flipping, to go into my new york organized crime, as a prosecutor, this could be like flipping the underboss of the

gambino family with respect to john gotti. this is the number two who even more than mike pence, was exactly where you would want a witness to be. but the critical thing that we do not know is whether mark meadows will say, i had all of the same knowledge as the former president and i knew what we were saying and doing was wrong. that this was something that was a crime. this is why i asked for a pardon. or is he going to be essentially an exculpatory witness who is saying, i knew everything the president knew but i had a good-faith belief. i didn't think i was doing anything wrong. so he is just a very important witness as to which way he's going. obviously, if he has struck a plea deal and he has pled guilty and is cooperating because he is hoping for a better deal at sentencing, that is not just a

flail in the coffin. that is the end for donald trump. but if he was immunized, or if you don't know exactly what he was going to say, and he's put on the grand jury, then that is something where we really have to wait and see just how much mark meadows is going to say what i did and what everyone else was doing was wrong. and we knew it at the time, which will, of course, end any sort of future that mark meadows has in politics. he will be anathema to any sort of right thinking, democrat or republican. >> we really haven't started the show yet until someone makes a gambino reference. now we can begin. let me press out your meadows point. this is from the transcript of kathleen hutchins' transcript. liz clain is asking about the

destruction of documents in the context of the congressional department. how frequently did you see him do it? hutchins said hard. i want to say once a week or twice. once a week or twice. i can recall specific times. maybe a dozen, maybe over a dozen, but this is december through mid-january which is when we started lighting the fireplace. what? did cheney explain what he was doing? chain, do you recall time frames? were these after particular meetings or specific issues or documents? cassidy hutchinson. quote, he was in meetings all day long so it was after meetings. i don't know specific documents. maybe two and four time he had mr. perry in his office right before he burned things. do you know what mr. perry was talking to him about? election issues. cheney, anything more specific? hutchinson, quote, the vice

president's role on january 6th? i'm trying to think the first time mr. perry was at the white house with all of this. mid december, i believe. mr. perry started coming to meet with mr. meadows about what he believed could happen on january 6th. and they were preparing various power points and he would bring physical material. so richard painter was my ethics adviser when i worked in the west wing. and i think richard painter would have taken me to jail myself if i ripped up or burned anything while i worked in the white house. this is the white house chief of staff burning things once or twice a week after meetings. this is in and of itself an unbelievable account from his most senior, his closest aide. what do you think the odds are that some immunity was given to mr. meadows before he testified, before jack smith's probe into both the documents and january

6th? >> some sort of deal had to have been reached. either it is one where he was given immunity or it is one where he had to plead guilty to something and he is hoping for what is called a sentencing letter to the judge for leniency for cooperating. but the key for immunity is that discussion prior to immunity being afforded, the way this works, is his defense lawyer would tell jack smith, these are the things you could expect to hear from mark meadows if you immunize him. you don't want to buy a pig in a poke. you want to know if you immunize someone, i want a sense of what that person will say. if you get immunity and then you lie, you still can be prosecuted

for that lie. so if you have a good defense counsel and you are given immunity, that defense counsel will be saying, mark, this is your get out of jail free card. you did something wrong. you have to own up to it. if you start fudging, you are risking criminal liability. and nicole, you've outlined just some of the many ways that mark meadows, that he's going to say i didn't do anything wrong, but there is no culpability here. it will be fraught in terms of going down that road. that's the issue. usually with white collar cases, getting somebody to say what i used to call the "w" word, i did something wrong, is very hard because it is going to become public. it will be splashed all over the news. your family, the entire nation is going to know that. but in this kind of case, you know, given the amount of

ammunition that jack smith has to use to say, look, you need to do that because otherwise, we will be making a criminal case against you. that is the pressure that jack has to hold mark meadows to tell the truth. obviously, the down side is that you have somebody who otherwise should be prosecuted and should suffer the consequences of engaging. in kind of conduct. after all, he is the chief of staff to the leader of the free world, and he is going to say that he engaged in obstruction in trying to overturn an election and did so knowingly. i mean, those are the most horrendous crimes that you can imagine. nicole, you worked in the white house. the idea that you had a colleague engage. in conduct. it is something that is unthinkable. but here, you can imagine, somebody making the calculus that you know, given that the

real target here, the person who is most responsible is the former president of the united states, that is a bargain worth making. these are called really tough justice department decisions. who do you give immunity to? is it worth it? is it better to try and make a criminal case or do you immunize the person? really tough calls. and that's a very tough call, i think, if i were sitting in jack smith's shoes. >> so this comes back to reporting earlier in the week about doj looking at a obstructive conspiracy. and we have news reporting of at least two individuals potentially receiving immunity. cash patel receiving immunity in the documents case, and a scenario by very credible former prosecutors that mark meadows must have had some sort of accommodation ordeal. we know he sought a pardon. and as an entry point, there is

that. what does this mean for witnesses like taylor budowich? it seems like the stakes when someone has already flipped are incredibly high. >> the stakes were incredibly high today. if i were a betting person here today, either taylor understood the testimony that was sought from him was very limited, and that the prosecutors were trying to make out a case, in fact, that he was duped much like evan corcoran was early on by trump. that he was essentially an instrument of the crime or fraud. but i'm going to guess that's not what happened here. and that taylor budowich himself has some sort of immunity. otherwise his exposure was huge. the statement in question wasn't the only statement he made with almost to the classified documents. he made a statement right after the mar-a-lago search in august. he accused the fbi of colluding

with the "washington post." and it is reported that among the documents found were those that talked about the nuclear secrets of foreign nations. so i do think that taylor likely had some exposure before he went in today. whether he still has some exposure after that limited testimony remains to be seen. certainly we don't have reporting on that yet. and i and others are waiting with baited breath to see. >> we're talking about the slow sort of grinding wheels of justice and the rule of law. it sort of stands in a split screen with what we just showed. chris christie for much of trump's presidency calling trump's president say about a than a republic. >> they always used to talk about that as a banana republic and we're not. and that that, something that, a point that you made before is really sticking with me. that someone advised you in the

white house. when i started in politics, you i imagine most people do. they have some kind of adviser or mentor. mine used to say you can never defend the indefensible. that goes for you, the operative, but it also goes for the person for whom you work. what is clear to me over and over again, in everything that we've been watching, is how willing trump's advisers and supporters were to be, to do the indefensible. and try to get away with it. and try to sell it to the american people as this is your king, not your president, but your king, and you should obey and respect your king. now they all seem to be sort of falling on their sword. certainly too late for me but it always goes back to this point about holding people account afbl and what is important for me in the evaluation of the candidates on the gop side running for president. are they going to be willing to go to the white house if they get elected and talk about

finding a way to filter all of these people out of government and create some kind of ethics umbrella to make sure this doesn't happen again? or will they actually go take advantage of what trump has already laid down? that's the concern. you can talk about it all you want on the campaign trail. you can be as bold as you want with some repercussions. once you get to the white house, are you willing to put something in place that makes it so that you don't exert the same power and reckless influence that donald trump did when he was there? and i don't know that anybody is showing me that right now. >> and this is something we've come back to. i think matt miller was the first person maybe six years ago to talk about, oh, the norms. this is the absolute impotence of norms to protect the country from trumpism. and i think something that you brought to our attention falls into this category as well. and that is the idea one year, a inconceivable to the head of the pga, go that liv golf would

subsume the tour. we had him a year ago talking about two families that he knew specifically that had lost loved ones in 9/11 and making that an example. and a reason why pga tour players should not join the liv golf tour. we have this blockbuster news this week that they have merged. >> what we see is trump has set a command climate in this country that is slowing that integrity is dead. america is for sale. patriotism is dead. at least among some key leaders. that's why i've continued to say, trump is not a political story. it is a national security story. always a national security story. so is liv golf. so is the january 6th investigation. >> so is the documents probe. >> we're talking about whether or not a president and a group of people conspired to violently overthrow our government and whether they should be stopped from doing it potentially again and encouraging others doing it again. stewart rhodes is going to jail for 20 years. i think it should be much more. this goes far and deep and we

don't know how deep. even if he loses, he is still a national security threat. he's never been held accountable and neither has anyone else. it sends a message to the world that we are willing to sell our top sports league to a bunch of people connected to the worst attack on u.s. soil in history, who violate human rights, who criminalize anyone who is lgbtq. they just bought the pga. right? and the people like tiger woods who showed integrity, people like rory mcilroy who had patriotism and integrity, they got the rug rimmed out from under them, just like the first responders of 9/11. we don't care about you. we are cowards and i think what they've done is worse than just hypocrisy. it is treasonous. >> there are many who are trying to say that this is creating a modern nfl and nba. it is partnership with a foreign entity. that foreign entity as you laid out has very questionable human

rights with respect to the lgbtq community and women. i worked with a lot of 9/11 families as you have. i did so after 9/11. to read their response, we should as a country be focused on what they are feeling and saying about their concerns around this partnership. where will it end if at all? it can't just be about the money. it has to be more about integrity and our history and who we hold up in our nation. >> yeah. forget about white-warninging history as ron desantis is trying to do, shameful and a sin and it should be a political crime for which he pays a political price. but this is history that is not three decades old. and they would like the erase this very raw history. to your point, a real inflection point on whether we have the capacity, if we really just say never forget or if we have the capacity to never forget.

>> let's check. >> and it should know no price. >> hold them accountable. boycott the pga. put the criminals in jail. investigate who needs to be investigated. bring back integrity and celebrate leaders and empower leaders who are willing to carry the voice forward. >> thank you. thank you all so much for starting us off this hour. basil is around the whole hour. when we come back, we have another reminder that the justices on the u.s. supreme court are left to police themselves almost entirely. and as the drip, drip, drip about clarence thomas has shown, it isn't exactly working out for anyone xems clarence thomas. we'll explain after a quick break. >> and later, the house democrat who forcefully blew the whistle on the right wing's demonization of trans kids and their families. >> one of the thing you said in your information here that you provided was that the dangers at

e.s.g. include promoting gender transitions for children. and i want to know, do you really believe that garbage? >> she eviscerated that former trump official in a hearing on capitol hill. she will be our guest later in the hour. be our guest later in the hour

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over the last 48 hours. that is because instead of demonstrating to the public that they are taking ethics issues and lapses seriously, two justices failed to file their ethics disclosures by today's 1:00 p.m. deadline. they are supreme court justice clarence thomas, who has asked for more time to file his annual financial disclosures, following criticism that he failed to report luxury travel and real estate transactions, with texas billionaire. and samuel alito. it come on the heels of statements by harlan crow's attorney to the judiciary committee after the committee requested crow's testimony, arguing that congress does not have the power to supervise the ethics of the court. he writes this. to reiterate, congress does not have the power to impose ethics standards on the supreme court. it therefore cannot mount an investigation for the that you recall of helping craft such

standards. finally, because the committee has requested information about the leadership of the co-equal branch of government, implicating sensitive separation of powers considerations, it must satisfy a higher standard in order to establish a valid legislative purpose for seeking the requested information. on this point, too, the committee's investigation comes up short. in a statement, the senate judiciary responded this way. harlan crow does not call the. he cannot claim. the committee has clearly established a oversight and legislative hort to assess and address the ethical crisis facing the court. all options are on the table moving forward. senator sheldon joins us. you read the letter and it's not clear if it is audacity or arrogance or ignorance that

fuels such words to be put in writing by the lawyers of harlan crow. do you have a theory? >> any one of those would suffice. i think the fact that any one of them could be true, and all three might be is pretty clearly demonstrated by the fact that in the last round of harlan crow's gifts to justice thomas, the question was referred to the judicial conference which then applied a law to make a determination. so what we're doing here as a congress is to look at how a body establishment by congress, the judicial conference, implements a law passed by congress, the ethics and government act, how you can find a separation of powers violation in congress doing that is a highly imaginative legal act.

>> senator, what if any information has been revealed or back channeled, if that even exists, about this delay in filing these ethics reports. it seems a starry-eyed person might think they're finally coming clean but that hasn't been the pattern or practice. >> we'll see. the extensions themselves are not the problem. the problem is what gets disclosed at the end of the day. if you're looking at justice thomas, he has gone on a long binge of nondisclosure. and now he has quite a lot of cleaning up to do. and i think they have some interesting questions to ask about what they disclose. they said they would make the correction that was sent to the supreme court that happened in march. so do they disclose what has happened since march?

or do they disclose the full voting year or does he go back to correct all his previous forms to comply with the correct standard, and i think they're trying to sort their way through that. i hope he is very transparent to correct with the correct judicial standard. >> the investigative reporting that gave us as a public, the information about the hidden real estate transactions, and go the hidden tuition paid to justice thomas's dependents, it documents work. it is indisputable. what is the investigative ambition. committee in terms of understanding more than just what the documents reveal? and by that i mean, would you like an investigation that goes into the relationship?

other interests? what else would you like to know? >> we're still developing the investigative plan, but for instance, the finance committee of the senate has an extremely legitimate interest in trying to understand the tax ramifications of all of this. in theory, you should file a gift tax form if you're gifting more than $17,000 to someone. and these vacations to justice thomas were many times that. so what was the reporting? why did they feel they needed to report or not to report? there's a whole tax side to this. was it disclosed as income? how was it treated? all of those are highly relevant to proper understanding of the tax code and to the finance committee's business. on the judiciary side, it is more about the operation of the

influence machine that harlan crow is a part of, and exactly how many benefits he gave to justice thomas and his family. the fact that we have documents about paying his documentive son, if you will, his adoptive son tuition, paying his mother's rent, paying money indirectly to his wife and paying for his very expensive multiple vacations doesn't mean that is all that he paid for. so we've asked for these documents about what else? what other transactions took place between harlan crow and justice thomas? at the end of the day, another character figures into this who has a contract with justice thomas to sell his book, bringing revenues for justice thomas, while he's filing briefs with the supreme court through

fictitious named front groups, while he spent millions of anonymously raised dollars to campaign for the confirmation of justice thomas's new six republican majority. >> it just feels like every rock that is turned over is more evidence that real oversight would actually benefit the court and its reputation with the american public, which is plunging. it doesn't have much farther to go. thank you for jumping on and spending time with us today. >> thank you. when we come back, the right wing's unyielding assault on trans kids and their families might have finally met its match. how our next guest took on the lies and the fear mongering on the right. g on the right.

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opportunity to beat up on children? so do you believe this. >> i'm not the one beating up on children. it's the people promoting gender transition in children that are potentially harming them. >> it feels like every single hearing that i'm in, whether it is in oversight or whether it is in budget or whether it is in a subcommittee, somehow the witnesses find a way to bring in trans children into whatever conversation we're trying to have here. >> that was the powerful rebuke yesterday by our next guest. democratic congresswoman rebecca balint shutting down a former trump official and climate and energy expert witness who called her own lies a, quote, matter of fact. that was just one of two house oversight hearings yesterday focused on a corporal strategy that republicans falsely claim promotes gender transition care for children. their latest weapon in a seeming charade against wokeness to

target and exploit transgender children and their families and their rights. she went on to explain to the witness that only a half-hour before her lies were told, she had stepped out of the hearing to speak to parents of transgender kids being targeted by policies and policy makers in their own states. they asked her, she said, to simply stand up for them against such tags. joining our conversation is rebecca balint. thank you so much for being here. we have tried really hard in real-time fact check the attacks on trans kids and their parents and their families. and where we've been able to lift up the voices that really simply say just back up and please give me a momen of grace to try to support my kid. this is hard. we've tried to do that. if could you just start with the

fact checks. what to you is the most pervasive lie being told by the right? what is the most effective way of fact-checking that? >> so one of the most pervasive lies is that we on the left are forcing children into gender changes. this is the lie they promote. they call us pedophiles. they call us groomers. what they do is they make the parents complicit in this. these parents are just trying to help their children in the best way possible. to love them and support them. and these parents have said to me a number of times i've had the honor to meet with them. what you said is true. they just want some grace. they just want the space to love their kids and support their kids. and fumble party has decided that this is a winning issue for

them. the new york time did an expose on exactly how they chose this. this is not random. this is calculated. what could we do to raise donors, to raise engagement among our right wing base? and they picked trans children and their families. it is a sickening testimony about where we are right now as a nation that picking on children is seen as the right way to go in this. >> i think most parents of trans kids trying to do what you just described support their kids and seek medical advice, and in some instances, psychological advice. it is not necessarily a party divide. this is in ohio making the same point. >> there are republicans, there are christians, who have transgender children. the people wanting to ban aif i

recalling care have no idea what it is like to be transgender or to have a transgender child. this is not something that is done on a wlim. yes, it even has spiritual elements to it. my son has a masculine soul and he said he's felt this way since he was 5. you've got to go easy on this. this is a terrible bill. this is not the simple issue being portrayed by the antitrans people. >> i want to lift that up. i'm still trying to unpack how this became this virulent right wing political cause when parents of trans kids, you don't know any partisan affiliation when you're trying to support your kids. how important is it in this moment? you just met with these families of trans kids. how important, how desperate is it to hit pause and get more facts out there? >> absolutely. that is one of the things that

they've said to us. we need your help in helping to educate the public about who we are, who our kids are, how it is that our government is oppressing us. i talked to parents from alabama and from texas and from florida, and they were saying, we have to try to explain to our children that their own government is attacking them. and as 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds just grappling. i'm a former middle school teacher, right? these kids are already grappling with who they are and who they want to be in the world. it is just devastating that these parents and these kids don't feel like they have allies standing up for them. and that was one of the thing that was so clear to me after i met with them yesterday and went back into my committee room. they're talking to me. i have a platform, i need to use it. they're exhausted from being the ones out there trying to educate people on their lives.

they're just trying to live their lives. >> you know, congressman, i got a window. i covered a southern poverty law center on hate and it was completely rooted in the facts. i had to pull some of the anecdotal evidence out. it was really data driven. these are the facts on republican-led anti-lgbtq legislation. just this year, 525 bills introduced in 41 staxts 220 pieces of legislation targeting transgender people. 76 anti-lgbtq laws have been enacted so far successfully. there are 1.2 million trans people in the united states, according to the "new york times." and one of the issues that has a lot of heat on the right. what in your view explains the ferocity and the zeal to attack anyone that wants to lift up

this republican from ohio? or the families you just met with? why is the right so angry? >> well, it sells. unfortunately. fear and anger sells. and that is the heart of this really. but this is the back lash. so i knew when i was 11 years old that i was gay and that was in the '80s when i was really wrestling with that and i didn't have any role models for being an out gay politician. the messages i got was that i was a horrible person that was deserving of hate, and we made so many gains around equality for queer and gay people across the country. we got marriage equality, and this is the backlash from that. because most americans have moved on from that debate, so they're looking for another

boogieman and they have settle on trans kids. >> i hope we can let this be the first of many conversations, because i think you can think this doesn't affect you, but i think if you sit by and permit the dehumanization of a family that doesn't look like yours or isn't going through the same thing you may be missing an opportunity to be part of the solution, so hopefully to be continued. >> absolutely. >> thank you very much. >> when we come back, the dangerous smoke that has swamped cities up and down the eastern seaboard, including this one. we'll have a live report on where it's heading and how you can stay safe next. e next

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separate from the ongoing investigation in the classified documents case, which we have also been talking about. my colleagues report that prosecutors are seeking testimony and documents. i want to turn to the story that we teased, the story that has consumed every conversation, big and small work people familiar with strangers on the street, and that is the smoke that engulfed new york city, parts sbft midwest today. smoke heading south from the raging canadian wildfires that have turned the big city into a big orange today. new york city has the worst air quality on the planet, in the entire world today work 98 million people in 18 states from new hampshire to south carolina under air quality alerts. i want to bring in my friend and colleague, nbc news meteorologist bill karens. >> reporter: this smoke is just a surreal scene. people have never seen anything like it. it's a bad sci-fi movie.

everyone should have a mask on outside. they cancelled the y2k game. there's problem getting to the airports. it will get out of hearing but not any time soon. not going to be until saturday that we'll see the smoke plume clearing to the east. in the next two to three days we'll have areas of smoke from new york to d.c. tomorrow morning. we're going to have a heavy plume destroy heading down to cleveland, possibly pittsburgh as we go through friday. so we're not done yet, nicolle. this is the worst air quality day in new york city's recorded history, and we're feeling the effects -- watery eyes, coughing. you get the picture. >> anybody needs a mask, i will personally deliver one if you're local here in new york city. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back. the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz] you can always spot a first timer. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze.

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