original reading of the constitution. anyone who's paying attention will look at it and go, come on. it's pretty clear who your irrigating power to, who are taking power from. plain as day. also this gaslighting effect. >> to me, the most important historical precedent for this, every american history is to understand, the reason the 14th amendment is the way it is, the reason the voting rights act is -- this was the way that jim crow happened. they said, we just want voters to be literate, so we're giving literacy tests. what are you talking about? obviously it's not about race. they say that because the 14th minute was in the constitution. pretextual legal-ism, used as a means of essentially just right democracy, is as old as the aftermath of the civil war. andrew morantz, who's piece in the new yorker is absolutely must read. thanks so much. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this wednesday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now, good evening, alex. ght,>> so many bad things to pay attention to right now. it's like -- >> it's a rough day. i gotta say, whatever.

this all sounds, i know for people watching other parts of the country might be a little like, you guys are really obsessed with this. fair, but it really feels bad out there today. >> it also gives some context what california and the pacific northwest of a living through. so, at least they have, like, i don't know, it's nicer there generally? maybe once the smoke clears -- anyway. what a day. thank you, my friend. >> thanks to at-home for joining us this evening. tonight, we have new reporting which confirms something that, up to this point, we had only suspected. former president, donald trump, is officially a target of the criminal investigation into the alleged mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. that news was first reported today by the guardian, citing two people who were briefed on the matter. multiple outlets are now reporting that federal prosecutors notified trump in the letter that he is the target. nbc news has not independently verified those reports.

donald trump is the person who allegedly took those classified documents from the white house, and then refused to comply with a justice department order to return them. so, if anyone in this case is going to be targeted for potential criminal charges, it is probably donald trump. for his part, trump today posted a cap slog heavy statement, arguing that being the target of an investigation isn't really that big ordeal. quote, no one has told me i'm being indicted, and i shouldn't be because i've done nothing wrong. but i have assumed for years, i am a target of the weaponized doj and fbi. as trump ransom but why he shouldn't be charged, we are learning more about what it might look like if he is. the washington post was first to report today, if trump is indeed criminally charged in the mar-a-lago investigation, the bulk of the indictment against him will be brought in south florida. according to people familiar with the matter. up until now, special counsel, jack smith, has been running

most of this investigation out of washington d.c.. as the guardian reports, prosecutors have concluded from the evidence, he was still president when classified documents were moved to mar-a-lago. meaning, trump's unlawful possession only started in florida. similarly, if prosecutors have also developed evidence that trump knew he had retained national security documents after he left office at mar-a-lago, for instance, by waving them around or showing people, that can present hurdles to charging espionage act violations in washington. which means it is now all eyes on florida as we await potential charges in this case. today, we saw some interesting new developments out of that state. first, a little background. remember, it was february of last year, when we first learned that the national archives had asked trump to return documents he had taken with him after leaving the white house. in the days after that story broke, trump released a statement, only it with the sort of statement that appeared

to have been frankenstein together. some sentences written by trump's lawyers, some sentences clearly written by trump himself. at one point, the statement switches from referring to trump in the third person to a defensive first person narrative. here's a quote. following collaborative and respectful discussions, the national archives and records administration, norah, openly and willingly arranged with president trump, the transport of boxes that obtained letters, records, newspapers, magazines and various articles. the papers were given easily and without conflict. and on a very friendly basis, which is different from the accounts being drawn up by the fake news media. in fact, it was viewed as routine and no big deal. in actuality, i have been told i was under no obligation to give this material, based on various legal rulings that even made over the years. which was a weird response, even by trump standards. that mishmash of a defense now

appears to have piqued the interest of special counsel, jack smith. today, that federal grand jury down in florida, her testimony from more than witnesses in this case, among the witnesses who appeared today, was this guy. taylor -- trump's former spokesman, who is in charge of issuing trump statements when the story first broke. according to the new york times, which sources two people briefed on the matter, one matter that prosecutors were interested in, asking him about. was the statement that mr. trump had his aides draft shortly after news broke that the national archives had recovered 15 boxes of material from trump in january 22. mr. budowich was mr. trump's spokesman at the time. the statement that mr. trump and nationally wanted to send said that trump had returned all the presidential material he had. a draft of the statement was put together. now, that statement was reportedly never sent. instead, trump released that

frankenstein, third person first person mishmash. prosecutors have the draft statement, the one his lawyers reportedly did not want to send, the one asserting trump had returned everything, and now prosecutors are asking witnesses about that draft statement. which begs the question, how many people around donald trump knew that he was still holding on to classified documents? what exactly was in that draft statement that was never actually released? it seems like jack smith knows the answer to those questions. now, a grand jury, responsible for bringing charges in this case, that grand jury does as well. all of that, will soon be important as we await charging decisions in the criminal investigation that we can now confirm is targeting the former president. joining us now is totally for haiti and weinstein, a former federal prosecutor the permit of justice. also with us, msnbc legal analyst, lisa reuben. thanks for being here tonight, ladies.

tally, let me begin with you. in first of trump being a target of the investigation. he seems to want to wave this off as if it is not a big deal. what does it mean, legally speaking, that he is a target of this investigation? >> it means that the department of justice, alex, is going to pursue an indictment against him. unless his lawyers could convince them not to do that which is, obviously, highly unlikely it is also possible that the grand jury won't vote to indict. but those are remote possibilities so i think we really are that much closer to an indictment of the former president, the entered interesting question today has been, where mike a charge related to mar-a-lago come. it seems like they might come in two districts in the federal system, and not just in one. we may have gotten today, alex, from four likely indictments

against the president, in manhattan, in georgia, a federal one for january 6th, and a federal one for mar-a-lago to five. two for mar-a-lago when, in florida, one in washington d.c.. >> that's a lot of potential indictments, lisa, you're in florida. can you explain, for those of us who don't know, what it practically means to shift the locus of this investigation from washington to florida? >> sure. alex, many people would say that shifting the locus from washington, d.c., to florida is not good for the department of justice. i'll explain why. for one, the jury pool here is considerably different, this is trump country, as opposed to the district of columbia, where more than 90% of voters voted for joe biden for president. so, there is some concern about shifting it here. the judges are also different. the composition of the judges,

on the federal bench here, is one that is more appointed by republican presidents, for example, the democratic presidents. however, what the department of justice really doesn't want is to lose a motion to dismiss on the indictment, on the grounds that the charges were brought in the wrong place. as i tali can tell you, the problem just as internal guidelines say charges should be brought where the bulk of the conduct occurred. here, there are definitely some things within the department of justices eyesight right now that seem to have occurred solely within the state of florida. for example, we've talked about the movement of boxes between places in order to play a sort of shell game with doj. that seems to be the type of obstructive conduct that only occurred in florida. similarly, if donald trump took out certain documents in his office in mar-a-lago and showed them to aids or donors or even

people having brunch at the club in mar-a-lago, that something that only occurred within florida. what the department really wants to do, is to make any charges that it brings stick, and not give trump an excuse to move to dismiss the indictment, or to appeal. because this charges were simply brought in the wrong place. >> tali, how do you read the timing of the impaling of this florida grand jury. so much of the testimony to the federal grand jury has been in washington d.c.. now, in what seems like the and stages of this investigation, all of a sudden, witnesses are going to testify in a separate, different granary down in florida. does that signal to you a reluctant, late breaking decision on the part of the doj? do you feel like this is a matter of course in terms of how these things play out at the end. >> well, it's not necessarily the kind of dramatic shift that some have described to me. here's the thing, alex, it's important to remember, it's one criminal system, the federal criminal system, one set of

laws. the prosecutors working from one graduate can appear in front of the other. importantly witness testimony can be taken in one place. and sent over, emails, to an agent in the other district who can read them into the other grand jury. it is still even possible that just for convenience, they put some witnesses into the grand jury in florida, they're gonna send everything to d.c. and indict their. as i said earlier, and as alicia intimated, it doesn't seem to be going that way, as we hone in on these charges. it does seem like the more conservative approach, so as not to be vulnerable to a motion on venue, is to bring some of the mar-a-lago charges in florida, and some in d.c.. similar to how manafort, paul manafort was charged both in virginia and in d.c.. he made the decision to go in front of both of those stories, rather than wave venue, and consolidate everything into one of those. so, it might just be the department has decided that,

it's better for him to have these two separate bites at the apple. not worry about a venue motion, and bring all of the charges that it had intended to bring from the start. >> tali, one more question to you, we know the miami district attorney's office down there reportedly has a robust national security division. what can you tell us about the personnel that are down there, working on this case. and also, if there is a jury brought after a criminal indictment, would that jury be selected from palm beach county? which is a part of the state that joe biden won, and would presumably have a less favorable pool in terms of donald trump? >> so, in terms of the prosecutors, alex, it's the prosecutor from the special counsel's office. i understand the ring in the case in either place. again, it's a unified system. so, it doesn't mean they have to hand it over. two prosecutors from the u.s.

attorney's office in florida in order for the case to happen there. in terms of the division that they bring it in, that does remain to be seen, to me, whether it would be in miami or in palm beach county. it's a unified grand jury. so, they could be taking testimony in anywhere that's within that district, one of the 93 districts in the country that covers all of southern florida. >> lisa, in terms of what is happening in this florida grand jury and the witnesses that are being called, is your expectation that some of these witnesses could be in legal jeopardy themselves? given the fact that, as we put all the reporting together, so many people appear to have known that donald trump was not telling the truth when he said he had returned everything to the federal government. that all the documents to the federal government. >> yeah, alex, to your point, i was scratching my head when we found out that today's witness was taylor budowich, he would

seem to be one of those people who might have criminal exposure, depending on what he knew and when. certainly, the fact that he consulted with trump advisers and attorneys, who told him that the statement at the former president initially wanted to make was not one that was advisable, would suggest that, in fact, he was told at some point, in some way, hey, look i, he still has classified documents in his possession. the fact that that he went out and made a number of statements to the press, designed to mislead or obfuscate, certainly would suggest taylor budowich might have exposure of his own. obviously, that remains to be seen. but i think some of the witnesses that they might be looking at to bring in could also, like budowich, have their own criminal exposure. one of the witnesses we haven't heard from yet, walt now to, a person we've talked a lot about as the chief mover of those

boxes. and someone who helped trump engineer the way in which he hid document from the department. he too could be a witness here, he hasn't yet testified before a grand jury to the best of our understanding. >> all i know is, we're getting a ton of new reporting on this case. which suggests that maybe more people know what's going on in it, which suggests maybe it is indeed coming to a close. which means, clear calendars, everybody. tali farhadian weinstein and lisa reuben, thank you both for your time tonight. >> thanks, alex. we have a lot to get to tonight, including a big development in the other special counsel investigation into donald trump. involving trump whisper, steve bannon. that is next. plus, the hazards of climate change were made not only visible, but physically palpable for much of the united states today. guess what republicans were doing? that's coming up.

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mar-a-lago investigation today, we learned of a significant development in the other case that special counsel jack smith is working on. a d.c. grand jury has subpoenaed former trump advisor, steve bannon, in the investigation into january 6th. and d.c. news reports, the subpoena was sent out in may, requesting documents and testimony from donald trump's

former chief white house strategist and longtime ally. given what we know about bannon's actions and his proximity to trump, both before and after the 2020 election, the special counsel will likely have quite a few questions, here's steve bannon, just a few days before voters went to the polls the. >> what trump's gonna do, he's gonna get victory. he's gonna declare victory. that doesn't mean he's a winner. he just gonna say is the winner. >> pressure and. the special counsel may also bring up a phone call mr. bannon made to president trump in late december, urging trump to take action on a certain upcoming calendar date. quote, people are gonna go what the f is going on here, we're gonna bury biden on january 6th. fe bury him. the special counsel may want details about what happened in the command center at the willard hotel, were bannon and assorted trump loyalists strategize to overturn the results of the 2020 election. there may also be more than a few questions about this comment that van and made on his podcast, the very day

before the capitol attack. >> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's all converging, now we're on as we say, the point of attack. the point of attack tomorrow. i'll tell you this, it's not gonna happen like a think it's gonna happen. it's going to be quite extraordinarily different. all i can say is, strap in. joining me now is california congressman and member of the january 6th committee adam schiff. congressman schiff, thank you for joining me on this big news night. , you know, i wonder how you see bannon's role on whether you see it as large as say, mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs. who i believe told bob woodward and bob costa for their book, peril, he said it was a planned revolution, according to woodward reporting of mark milley, steve bannon's vision coming to life, bring it all down, blow it up, burn it in a merge with power. do you see bannon as the architect of the january 6th

insurrection? >> i certainly see him as one of the leading voices, proponents, of this effort to delegitimized the election, to stir up people on january 6th. and potentially, his role in inciting the violence of that day. there were a few people closer to donald trump they had an on again off again relationship, it appears to be in very much on again in the weeks and months leading up to january 6th. so, i think the special counsel's going to be very interested in the conversation he had with trump. in why he was able to predict or appear to predict the violence that would take place on january 6th. what was going on in that war room at the willard hotel, which roger stone and others of the president's inner malicious circle, gathered to strategize about trying to overturn the election. so, i think he is a key witness, and this is another indication that the special counsel's

investigation is likely nearing its end. >> yeah, well, let's return to that for a minute. but when you talk about the war room, the convention of bodies, as it were, what questions do you have about what transpired at the willard hotel, in the hours leading up to january 6th? >> well, i think what most important is, those that were plotting and planning on january 5th, what did they understand was going to take place the next day? how and where they have a likelihood of violence? what relationship they have with these white nationalist groups, the three percenters, the oath keepers, -- et cetera. and what did they communicate to the president? what did the president know? what was his involvement? those are, i think, some of the key questions. at the end of the day, for the special counsel, it all gets down to the presidents knowledge and intent. there is some powerful evidence, such as when he's on the mall

in january 6th, and he's told that people want to go through the metal detectors, because they don't want their weapons taken away. his response is, will take down their effing mags, they're not here to hurt him. how does he know that there are not there to hurt him? what may have he discussed with people like bannon, these are i think key questions that the grand jury is gonna want to know. >> you just offered a deep teas, as they say, in our industry that you think this is indicative of the special counsel's probe wrapping up. can you talk to miller bit more about that? i think, from the outside, the fact that he still issuing subpoenas, the fact that witnesses are still coming in has led some folks to say, oh, it's gonna be awhile before there's any charging decisions in the january six investigation. you seem to think otherwise, why is that? erin >> if you look at the nature of the witnesses that he's bringing in, people like the former president, mike pence, know steve bannon.

these are people very close to the president. you don't bring them in until, basically, you brought in everyone else. you've gotten all the documents, you think you're gonna get. you know you're gonna get one crack at these witnesses, so you want to be as prepared as possible. you may not, in fact, expect, necessarily, you're going to get testimony from all of them. bannon tried, unsuccessfully, to claim executive privilege. he's since the four months where is obstruction of congress, that is not gonna be available to him in the grand jury. he might end up pleading the fifth. so, it won't necessarily mean that they're going to get all the goods in the testimony. from these last witnesses. it does mean that they have exhausted all the lower level witnesses, they're just at the very top now. and then they've got to make a decision, do we indict? or don't? we >> do you think in the fact we have reporting, that president trump is a target of the mar-a-lago probe, that we have indications, though not confirmation, that that probe

may be wrapping up? do you think that affects, in any way, the way that the special counsel is dealing with or thinking about a charging decision in the january 6th case? which arguably is more momentous in the scale of criminality, potentially, the mar-a-lago? >> i think it is more momentous. certainly, that was the efforts of the january 6th committee, given that it was the first incidents in our history of an attempt to thwart the peaceful transfer of power. if the reporting is accurate, and he's received a target letter on the mar-a-lago investigation, and i don't know if there's any reporting that he's received the same kind of letter on january 6th if he hasn't, that would indicate that the mar-a-lago investigation may be more advanced than january 6th, closer to resolution. but i think, probably, one of the special counsel's thinking right now, the presidential campaign is getting further and further along. the department wants to act as far in advance of the election as possible.

so as not to be perceived as influencing the election. so, i think he probably feels, and should feel, a sense of urgency. they've taken far too long to get to this point, before the special counsel is brought on board. but he seems to be moving with great speed. >> can i get your reaction to the fact that mark meadows, we have reporting that mark meadows has testified to a grand jury on both the mar-a-lago investigation and the january 6th probe? >> you know, he's one of those key witnesses that has relevant evidence, i'm sure on both of those investigations. we and the january six committee have serious questions, we never really got answered. about classified documents that were brought to the white house that he was knowing of, we don't know exactly what happened to some of those documents. so, i think is a potentially key witness in both investigations. meadows has been all over the map, at times, willing to cooperate, at times trying to thwart cooperation. who knows what his attitude was

when he was brought before the grand jury. i would hope that special counsel, given the more powerful tools they have to get answers, got answers from mark meadows. >> do you think he might be a cooperating witness at this, point given the fact that he has been, as you rightly point, out all over the map on this? and has been largely quiet, and not on trump land's radar for the last several weeks? >> it's certainly possible. like so many of these people, they don't have any core convictions. there's no ethical compass. there's no fixed ideology. they don't really stand for anything. so, this is why trump has found it so difficult to get loyalty from these people. first of, all trump shows no loyalty to the people that serve him. he choose them up and spit them out. similarly, people like meadows. they go where the wind blows. so, it's more than possibilities cooperating or cooperating in part. i would imagine, given our experience with meadows, that

whatever he's doing is self serving, that seems to be the only constant. >> yeah, if the wind is blowing towards a jail cell, you can be sure he'll probably want to avoid that. congressman adam schiff, it is always great to speak with you. thanks for time tonight. >> thank you. >> still to come this evening, when climate change hits home. turn on your gas stove? we will discuss what house republicans were doing during this week of apocalyptic air. plus, when the politics of the 2024 presidential race get weird, who are you gonna call? how about the guys from pod save america. stick around for that. it's easy to get lost in investment research. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. - psst! susan! with paycom, employees do their own payroll. - what's paycom? a magic payroll genie?

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what i'm about to show you is not mars. this is the new york city skyline, at around 2:00 this afternoon. for context, on the left side is what the skyline typically looks like when the air is not an unearthly shade of orange. the national weather service also posted this time lapse. which you can see here, it shows just how quickly things turned fairly apocalyptic in only three hours. this view of the george washington prairie, which connects new york city to new jersey, you can barely even see new jersey. the hazardous air quality in new york was the worst in the world today.

according to the united states air quality index, anything over the number 300 is considered hazardous. by four pm today, the air quality index of new york city had hit a record breaking 413. which is so bad, governor kathy hochul announced that new york is distributing 1 million n95 masks across the state tomorrow. now, if you stepped outside today and wondered where did all the smoke come from, why does it feel so hard to breathe and to think and to see? the cause comes from up north. from canada. over 400 fires are currently burning in quebec and ontario, which is a result of man-made climate change, which is exacerbating the hot and dry conditions that allow wildfires to ignite integral. and while the existence of climate change should really no longer be up for debate, being able to actually see this haze in the air is weirdly helpful. it makes climate change visible and it makes it immediate. and it is now affecting cities,

and it is causing air quality hazards from detroit to boston and from upstate new york all the way down to north carolina. including washington d.c.. there is a tragic irony that this week, as this hazardous air made its way towards the capitol, house republicans had an agenda item on the topic of air quality. but it had nothing to do with combatting climate change. they were taking a vote on protecting gas stoves. republicans have been up in arms for months now, saying the biden administration wants to cancel america's favorite appliance, after a federal agency highlighted the link between natural gas stoves, indoor air pollution, and childhood asthma. scientists at stanford recently tested a typical new york city apartment with a gust of, they found alarming concentrations of nitrogen dioxide, which is a gas that causes asthma and other respiratory illnesses, as well as benzene, which is a carcinogen found in cigarette smoke and car emissions. even though the department of energy is proposing stricter

regulations on gas stoves, and some states are actually banning them outright in new constructions because benzene and nitrogen dioxide do not seem like the best sides to go with everyone scrambled eggs, despite that, the white house has said that president biden opposes any types of been augustus. but republicans would prefer to stoke fear that president biden is to cancel your kitchen. >> since day one in the oval office, joe biden and his administration have been waging war on american energy. now, they are targeting gas stoves. the poor furred cooktop appliance for tens of millions of americans. >> so, house republicans teed up a bill yesterday that would ban the biden administration from banning gas stoves. the bill weirdly and unexpectedly fell victim to republican infighting, as 11 members of the far-right house freedom caucus decided to sink it as well as three other bills, all too punishing house speaker kevin mccarthy for negotiating over the debt ceiling.

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because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. if we want a more viable future for our kids, we need to find more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. >> on that day, president trump

also demanded that i choose between him and the constitution. now, voters will be faced with the same choice. i believe that anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states. >> [applause] >> and anyone who asks someone else to put them over the constitution should never be president of the united states again. >> that was former vice president mike pence in iowa earlier today, formally announcing his campaign for president by talking about what he did at the capitol on january 6th, and making the case against donald trump. mister pence is now part of a ballooning list of republican candidates, but it is not quite clear which republican voters mr. pence is courting. he is currently pulling in the single digits, below four

points, on average, which is far, far behind donald trump and governor ron desantis. so, pence is now the first president to run a challenge to the president -- to challenge the president who first took him to the white house. but it is unclear what exactly that gets him in 2024. earlier today, i spoke with john favrow, john levitt, and tell me the tour, house of the great pod save america, about this very unusual republican primary race. and here are some of our conversation. >> guys, thanks for doing this. thank you for your time. in ed vance, there are really no three better people to talk about what's happening in american politics and democracy than you guys right now. >> really? >> well, actually, there probably are. >> -- >> we said yes. we are some of the best people that said yes! >> i am eager for your thoughts. how about that? >> great. >> and specifically, its announcement week, as it concerns the republican party and its nominees in 2024. and mike pence, just a few

hours ago, to his hat, officially, in the ring with his announcement speech. and in it, as we played at the top of the show, he is invoking the events of -- he is recalling the events of january 6th, which is sort of the case for pence's candidacy. but also, perhaps ironically, his kryptonite as it concerns republican voters. so, maybe, favrow, i will start with you. what do you think of pence's invocation of the riot at the capitol he's the only republican candidates to do that so far in the field? >> yeah, i was pleasantly surprised that he did that in his announcement and planned to do that. i do not think that mike pence has much of a constituency in the republican party since there is some segment of the republican party that did want to hang him on january 6th. so, i think the fact that he got up there and was so pointed and sharp about donald trump's

role in january 6th, certainly highlights how all of the other republican candidates, with the exception of chris christie, have been shine way from any kind of criticism of donald trump. so, good for him. i don't know if it will help him in the primary. because i think if you are a voter who liked donald trump and liked mike pence as vice president, but then you saw mike pence supposedly betrayed donald trump -- like, i just don't know where the venn diagram is -- how much overlap theories between people who do not like what donald trump did on january 6th but do like sort of the rest of the trump administration. >> yeah, donald trump -- look, he was -- one bad day. >> -- >> one bad day -- also, his kryptonite is not kryptonite. his kryptonite is a group of fascists with the news trying to kill him at the capitol. something to think about. >> well, that's -- >> -- >> yes. but, jon lovett, what surprises

me about pence and, to some degree chris christie, but really most acutely pence, is his complete underestimation of the party that he had a role in creating. right? he was literally there in the white house when donald trump was president. and he saw how trump change that party into a group of people that thirst for confrontation, that make grievance -- this sort of animating movement of their lives. he was there when the white house and the republican party became a hotbed of nativism and isolationism. you know, the hawkish neocon of your yore -- it's almost like he has a rip van twinkle syndrome, where he's emerging on the presidential stage, where the candidate stage, forgetting about what happened in the four years when he was vice president. i have a hard time understanding how a man cannot know what he did for such a long period of time.

do you? >> no, especially, because the other thing mike pence and chris christie have in common is that they are the two people that donald trump tried to kill. chris christie -- he has great soundbites now. -- he's calling him at me or hague, he's -- someone who stopped supporting trump in 2017, when he's actually somebody that was with trump every step of the way, when trump was being exactly the same person he was on january 6th, as he was on january 5th and january 4th and every day before. that the reason that chris christie was almost killed by donald trump is because he was in debate prep with him for 2020. so, it's like -- it just doesn't make sense, right? they are all trying to pretend that they weren't on board every step of the way, until they discovered that there might be a niche for them to be become anti trump in one way or another. >> also, pence might fashion himself as a community theater reagan impersonator these days. but he's really like an og culture warrior. he was on right-wing radio. i believe he famously vote in

op-ed where he attacked mulan. was it mulan? >> -- >> yeah, everyone knows mulan as a great threat to our country. so, he was leading these culture war years long before donald trump was -- >> -- that is a good reminder. pence is an og culture warrior, but perhaps doesn't have the personality that -- >> know -- >> that republican voters demand of their -- which is a beautiful segue, tommy vietor, to ron desantis. and we have new reporting in the washington post about what kind of candidate culture warrior ron desantis is and wants to be. and i've got to quote jeff roe, who is the top advisor to never back down, which is the super pac that has been supporting ron desantis. and he said to axios, the fight for the soul of this party is not about tax cuts or trade deals. it is a cultural combat that we have as a country. these people know that ron desantis is a culture warrior for this time. these voters are more angry than they were in 2016. first of all, do you think that's true?

do you think republican voters are angry than they were in 2016? because they were pretty angry in 2016. >> they were pretty angry in 2016. i think, angrier now. there certainly a subset of them who think the election was stolen because there were brainwashed from the larger than life culture warrior that is all trump, and -- probably angrier. i don't know. i think what jeff roe said they are about the primary being primarily angry and about culture fights, i think, is true. and you can see that this has become desantis's sort of total sole tactic on the stump. even his wife was wearing a jacket that said florida is where woke goes to die. -- so, desantis, they certainly going in on this idea that politics is downstream as of culture of andrew breitbart, i believe, once -- said >> -- >> the pride -- about leather -- >> it's a pride jacket. desantis -- some has been made of desantis 's lack of campaign retail

politics, and the lack of his skills at retail politics. and there is new reporting in the washington post today. i will read you a quick excerpt about how he is not exactly mr. personality on the trail. desantis was not one for extended conversations, often replying quickly and moving on. yep, he said, when a young man thanked him for a signature. got it? he asked as the next photo snapped. all right. the governor had some deeper exchanges on his trip. but he often met information from voters with a couple of words. oh, nice. oh, cool. oh, great. >> [laughter] >> so, on the one hand, if you run for president, you probably need to be good at the grip and the green. you've got to be good at talking to voters. right? or is desantis's candidacy's candidacy staked out in these very specific area of, i'm a culture warrior, and i'm not on trump, nothing else matters? >> i don't know what will be enough to make people think

that ron desantis should be president. i have under trouble understanding how someone can think that. but, man, he's such an odd guy. he comes across as a weird on the stump. and you can already see donald trump starting to circle, wanting to call this guy weird. he's just an odd guy. and he does this strange -- >> he's called him everything else already. >> yeah, jon favreau he's right. >> -- much -- >> he does this weird twitter space with elon. he goes on and on about these esoteric topics that people really don't know about. even a spokesperson going on axios and saying that the culture war is the fight of our time. but then he goes on about topics that are important to the tiniest fringe, not just of -- forget the typical person. even, like, the typical republican isn't keyed into some of these culture fight that ron desantis he so focused on. so, the combination of having absolutely no charisma, just none whatsoever, plus this sort of like walter peck from ghost

buster -- i'm going to take on the [bleep] -- can you bleep that? what are we allowed to say? i'm going to take on the epa. i'm going to take on disney. i'm -- the place where woke goes to die. it is so unappealing on sort of a fundamental level. and people want to like this person at the end of the day. >> he speaks right-wing internet. this crt, the dei, to the esg -- , like buddy, what are you talking about? >> we have to stop the fed from releasing a digital currency. it's like, what are you talking about? >> the presidency is, you are inviting someone, basically, into your home for four years because you are going to watch them on tv, watch them on all your, screens all the time. and you want to be able to hang with that person, or at least not hate them. >> right. and honestly, for a lot of the republican party, for trump, trump was someone that was entertaining to them. you know? and so -- >> i think my favorite part of that washington post or you are mentioning is there was a world war ii veteran at desantis's event -- >> he has. >> and someone introduced desantis as a veteran and someone came up and said, sir,

there's a world war ii veteran. he said, yeah, i know, i already met the guy. it's funny to about watching the ron desantis campaign, with ron desantis on his feet, is that there was this run up to him announcing where he was like, oh, no, is he more electable than donald trump? here's the guy that is going to beat donald trump. and he is the one that is going to be beating the democrats. and then he signs a six-week abortion, ban which is just as unpopular thing as a person can do. and then he starts talking to regular people. there's a great video where someone says, like, hi, i'm rick. he's like, okay. he's completely devoid of personality. i love it. >> if you like more of that -- if you want more of that, and if you liked that, i will be joining jon favreau, us jon lovett, and tommy vietor, for a live taping of pod save america at the trifecta film festival here in new york. we'll be joined by special guests new york attorney general letitia james, a person named hillary clinton, and comedian roy wood junior of the daily show. when we come back, we have one more story for you this evening. and it is about supreme court

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and follow the plan, it works. supreme, justice ketanji brown jackson, reported today that she received a 1200 dollar congratulatory floral arrangement from oprah winfrey. thanks, oprah. justice is neil gorsuch, brett kavanaugh and amy coney barrett all reported income from teaching. and justice elena kagan listed earnings from renting a parking space she owns in washington d.c.. all of these details and more were included in the justice's 2022 financial disclosures. after the supreme court adopted new ethics rules, this year, requiring justices to provide a fuller accounting of their financing and received gifts. that includes gifts that constitutes personal hospitality, the category that has come under intense scrutiny because of explosive reporting from propublica about the many luxurious gifts justice clarence thomas had