seven in total. >> all right. the washington post. jackie alamany, a woman who looks like she's in the middle of hundreds of phone calls and texts coming at the same time. in our final moments. come back if you need to. as we close, claire mccaskill, sum up where we are in the moment in history. >> release the indictment as soon as possible so the american public can learn what the facts are. >> also, it is proven now what he does, what he tries to do with disinformation. that fire hose of falsehoods that he puts forward and so it would seem to me that we're not the only ones who feel that there might need to be some more transparency here. >> the danger of letting trump describe it on his own. >> that does it for us this morning and what a morning it has been. ana cabrera and jose diaz vallart pick up special coverage of the indictment of donald trump right now.

hello and thank you for joining us. it is 10 a.m. eastern. i'm ana cabrera with jose diaz vallart. special breaking news coverage today. for a man with a lengthy and varied history of high stakes court battles, this will be a legal saga unlike anything donald trump has encountered before. the former president has now been federally indicted on seven criminal charges related to his handling of classified documents. nbc news has confirmed one of the charges is related to the espionage act. >> all eyes now turn to tuesday at 3 p.m. eastern, the day before the former president's 77th birthday when we expect trump to appear in court in miami and unless information is released beforehand, that's also when we expect to get the full detailed list of charges from the special counsel's team. for his part, trump has denied any wrongdoing. >> they can't stop because it's

election interference at the highest level. there's never been anything like what's happened. i'm an innocent man. i'm an innocent person. >> ahead in our special coverage, our reporters and guests are standing by to break down what this all means moving forward, from the legal battle to the 2024 race to our country itself. joining us now is nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken delanian and laura jarrett. >> ken, abc is reporting some news in the last couple of minutes about the judge. nbc has not confirmed this, but what can you tell us? >> reporter: that's right. abc news is reporting judge eileen cannon has initially been assigned this case. the judge who came under a lot of criticism for her handling of the litigation around the search warrant that the fbi obtained to go in and search mar-a-lago. we need to learn more about that. it's supposed to be a random assignment. we're trying to confirm that report. if it's true, obviously it's a

very significant development that's going to come under a lot of scrutiny. >> they are reporting that they now have the transcript of the meeting where donald trump reportedly admits he retained secret documents with military information on them and that he had not declassified them. i should note nbc news has not independently confirmed this. we have not received this transcript, but what would it mean? >> a couple reasons it's significant. it shows, one, that he has in his possession a document that is classified when he is no longer president in an unclassified setting. that violates a section of the espionage act. one of the sections we believe he could be facing in this indictment. the second reason this is important is it goes to his state of mind. it shows that he knows that he is not supposed to keep documents that are classified. that's why he's saying, i should have declassified it when i was president when i had the chance. he doesn't now because he's no

longer president. it shows that he understands the limits of his authority when he's no longer president. >> when you are talking about the espionage act, it's so broad, what exactly is it? >> people have a conjured image of a spy providing secrets to another country, u.s. adversary. it could be used that way. it's broader than that. in this case, all you need is someone who has the unauthorized possession, meaning they shouldn't have the documents in the first place, to willfully retain them. knowingly retain them. in this case having taken documents from the white house after he's no longer president, having them in florida, not in a classified setting, that is enough to have a charge under the espionage act. you don't have to have provided them to a foreign government or anything like that, just merely retaining them. in his case, being asked to give them back repeatedly and not having done so. >> as we mentioned, there are seven charges, we've learned. we don't know all of the charges, but what more can you

tell us beyond the espionage act charge, the type of legal trouble trump could be facing, the crimes that he may be facing? >> reporter: it's hugely significant, ana. there's a conspiracy to obstruct justice charge. again, the lawyer, james trusty, who discussed these charges publicly, he hasn't seen the indictment. he's only seen a charging sheet. he himself says he doesn't know exactly what the charges are, but obstruction, false statements and the one big unanswered question is whether he's been charged with dissemination, showing classified documents to people who weren't authorized to see them. that's the kind of charge that everyone can understand and the kind of charge that can be really difficult for republican allies in congress to defend, assuming the special counsel brings it and has strong evidence to support it. it carries a significant penalty, ten years in prison or

more. that is an unanswered question. >> there are a lot of unanswered questions. >> there's no reason to do this. >> one thing i'm looking for. james trusty indicated there is a conspiracy requires, we need to -- who do prosecutors believe trump conspired with on any of these issues? that's one thing to look for. >> laura jarrett, thank you. ken delaney, thank you. for this historic moment we are facing, we are joined by joyce vance, u.s. attorney in alabama

and chuck rosenberg along with frank seglusi. joyce, let's start with you. we don't know all the charges yet as we just discussed because this indictment is sealed, but based on what we know right now, how straightforward is this prosecution? >> so this case is a one, two punch. the first punch is that trump retained documents that he was not entitled to have and it violated the law for him to keep in his possession, particularly after he was asked to return them. and then the second punch is obstruction, that he tried to obstruct the investigation. he lied to the justice department. we're hearing now that there may be a conspiracy charge in that regard, and like laura jarrett, i'm very interested in learning who that co-conspirator might be and perhaps equally as important whether or not they're cooperating with the government. that said, this case is a straight line. it will follow their rule that prosecutors try to live by, which is to keep things simple

for jurors. >> chuck, the former president has talked so much about this issue on so many different topics. what can we expect trump's defense arguments to be? >> well, just as the government would have to prove willfulness that the president acted with intentionality, the converse of that is if documents were mislayed, misplaced, it was intentional. in other words, that he didn't form the intent the government is trying to prove. there are other technical defenses that a defendant can raise pretrial and in this case, interestingly, there might be claims of executive privilege or that when a district court judge permitted the government to pierce the attorney-client privilege, that was impermissible. it was the wrong decision. it should give or it, you could

argue, could give mr. trump some relief. in a trial setting what you will hear from the other side should they mount a defense, they're not required to, is that the defendant lacked willfulness. it wasn't intentional. >> i think that is such an important point to make here because, frank, when we're talking about the seriousness of these crimes, i think there may be some misunderstanding out there that trump just kept the documents and forgot to return them, but now we know that the espionage act is involved here. to what degree does that raise the bar? >> yeah. this is an important issue, in part from a security perspective, ana, because everybody out there in trump world is keying off of gop high profile people. senators hawley, tauberville, speaker mccarthy and all of the fox news hosts saying this is

nonsense, this is targeted, this is unfair. yet as you said, we've got potentially a number of very serious charges here. i think the more exposure this indictment gets, the sooner we get it out publicly, there's a greater chance that people will hit the pause button on saying that this is unfair because the facts, i think, are going to speak for themselves. i also think it's important to not get caught up in this word espionage because, look, what we've heard so far is that this could be a subsection of one of the espionage statutes that involves willfully retaining national defense. it doesn't mean he's trying to harm them. he absolutely knew he shouldn't have these documents and he continued to retain them. the obstruction charge, equally very serious. conspiracy? yeah. who did he conspire with?

are they cooperating? all of this goes through the picture that the fbi, secret service, u.s. marshals, if they keep claiming unfair, fight back. we've lost our democracy. all things being said, right? we're going to see people incited to violence if this doesn't change. >> is this in the best interests of the country, the doj, everybody else, for this information to be out and be released before tuesday? >> so there's a delicate balance. they have to be extremely careful to protect the due process rights of donald trump. like any defendant in our system, he is innocent until proven guilty. doj absolutely can't do anything to suggest that he's guilty before this case goes to trial, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't begin to educate the public about this case. one of the ways they can do

that, merrick garland loves to say doj speaks through its pleadings in court. last night donald trump's lawyers talked about what they believe is in the indictment. it's important for doj to ask the court to unseal this indictment so the public can read it for themselves and see what is in the indictment. >> chuck, of course one of the many arguments we've heard from trump and his allies is that he's been treated unfairly. they say, what about hillary clinton? what about president biden who had classified documents? no charges in those cases. we should note, of course, the biden documents probe is ongoing. chuck, can you explain what makes trump's case different here? >> yeah. a couple of things, ana. it's an important question. for instance, contrast mr. trump's alleged behavior with former vice president mr. pence. mr. pence found stuff that he shouldn't have in his home in

indiana, he notified the fbi, he arranged to turn it back over. they did a thorough search. he cooperated fully and there's no suggestion whatsoever that mr. pence obstructed justice in any way or counselled witnesses not to tell the fbi the truth. he cooperated. that's a huge difference between the alleged behavior here by mr. trump and what mr. pence did. the so what makes the case criminal? i think that's sort of ultimately your question, ana. what makes the case criminal is that intentionality, doing something willfully, intentionally, purposefully to violate the law. it doesn't help to contrast mr. trump's case with whether or not mr. pence was charged or mr. biden will be charged or hillary clinton. take each case on its own facts. look at the conduct alleged. i agree with joyce. it's helpful. it would be helpful to have the facts out in the public domain sooner rather than later. >> why aren't they doing that.

>> educate on that basis. you know, joyce eluded to this. i think she's right. you want to be extraordinarily careful the due process rights of every defendant. if in the normal case in the southern district of florida they unseal indictments at arraignment, then unseal the indictment at the arraignment. you don't want to make exceptions if you don't have to. you don't want to do things differently if you don't have to. play it by the book. >> trump's lawyer says there's prosecutorial misconduct. alleging a prosecutor on jack smith's team tried to pressure a witness's lawyer by bringing up his application for a judgeship. listen to this. >> one of the deputies for jack smith extorted an attorney to try to get him to flip his witness. >> jim, to be clear, i've heard you make this claim before, we don't have any independent evidence and so far you haven't produced any independent

evidence to bring it up. >> it will play out. this isn't just lawyer talk. >> they would have brought up in the meeting with the doj ahead of the indictment, no? >> i'm sure they would have. this is jim trusty's version of what happened. here's how doj will handle that. they will do the same thing that they do in every case where a prosecutor is alleged to have engaged in misconduct. the office of professional responsibility will open a case. they will take a look at what the provable facts are. they will determine whether the prosecutor, in fact, engaged in misconduct, and if so they will discipline that prosecutor appropriately. there are a full range of sanctions they can use. even based on what the trustee is saying, this does not sound like something that rises to the level of being conduct that would have any impact on this case. there's no suggestion that evidence was tampered with or witnesses were tampered with. in fact, it's a little bit illusory in the sense that

there's no way that federal prosecutors can influence who is or isn't elected for a superior court judgeship in the district of columbia. this seems like a little bit of an issue to obfuscate the issues and more of an attempt to pound the table when you don't have a defense. >> thank you all so much. >> we're back in just 60 seconds. reaction from trump world to this indictment. how the former president's allies are coalescing around him this morning, especially as they point the finger at president biden. what we're hearing from inside the white house. plus, how this historic indictment reshaped the 2024 campaign trail. you're watching special breaking news coverage of the trump indictment only on msnbc. (foreman) nice work. (vo) and retailers can get ahead of the fashion trend of the day with a new line tomorrow. with a verizon private 5g network, you can get more agility and security.

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president with many framing the indictment as a political attempt to hurt president trump. house speaker mccarthy said he would hold them accountable. the trump team is closely monitoring who is defending trump and who is not. joining us from the former president's golf club is garrett haak and david jarry. garrett, the trump team is closely monitoring the response from capitol hill. what is it looking like there? >> reporter: they're looking for loyalty, jose. that's the bottom line. even members who haven't formally endorsed the former president, like the speaker, they still have his back. there's language where they talk about the weaponization of congress. there was a committee to look at that issue in this new

republican-controlled house. that's the kind of language we've been hearing from house republicans describing a biden justice department that has been unleashed against a political rival. i've seen leslie hunt tweeting to shut down the republican presidential primary, it's even inappropriate to run it. they ought to make donald trump the nominee going into 2024. you're seeing that kind of coalescing around mr. trump on the house republican side. the senate republicans have been a little bit more cautious, but the trump team here wants to believe they can kind of command the republican party to rally around their guy much like they did after his indictment in new york now in the face of these more serious federal charges. >> julie, i know the halls are emptier than usual but even members generally skeptical of trump are being supportive in their reactions, the response we're seeing. what are you hearing? >> you heard garrett say that the trump team is looking for a

employment at this test here, for the most part at least in the house of representatives they are getting the loyalty they're looking for. you mentioned from lawmakers, some republicans who have not always had the kindest things to say about the former president. garrett went through some of the remarks we've heard from speaker mccarthy and some of the leaders who are making this all political turning their attention to joe biden, the president instead of the facts at hand here. take a listen to nancy mason from south carolina. she is a moderate. she often broke with the former president. she has been outspoken with her criticism. here's the information she said minutes after this broke. watch. >> this is the executive branch tonight trying to take out their number one opponent for the presidency of the united states in 2024. and they have one standard for donald trump and another standard for everybody else. everyone's held to a different standard but donald trump and that's wrong. i do believe tonight joe biden just secured donald trump's

nomination for republicans in 2024. >> now mace also sits on the house oversight committee and she's been outspoken, vocal on investigating the biden family. on the other side of the capitol in the senate, those republican leaders have been completely mum about this much like they were when the former president was indicted in new york. we have not heard from mitch mcconnell or john thume. hours before the indictment came out yesterday, he told me that the american people are, quote, tired of the drama of the former president. he did say we should watch this play out before commenting. >> reaction in the house is very strong, particularly from trump allies. members of the house freedom caucus. is this loyalty test and a loyalty that in the house, for example, cannot be broken no matter what happens or doesn't happen? >> yeah.

it appears that way, jose. i think an important baseline is this. nobody, no republicans are defending donald trump's behavior. that's critical to recognize. tho one is defending his behavior. they are talking about the unequal application of justus, the weaponization by joe biden despite the facts to back up that charge. and then some of them are offering retribution. members are saying we're going to defund the fbi. we're going to defund the department of justice. ron desantis saying when i get to the white house, we're going to settle this. you bring up an interesting point, jose, about house republicans. house republicans and gop presidential candidates, while their interests are adjacent, they're not exactly the same. house republicans largely are having to support donald trump out of this loyalty test, but gop presidential candidates need to separate themselves from donald trump at some point. we're not seeing that on this issue. is it a missed opportunity

politically? certainly it may be historically, but gop presidential candidates in their own right also seem to be backing the former president just as house republicans are this morning. >> we have this in, congressman jolly. mitt romney in the senate said mr. trump brought these charges upon himself. that's notable because it's one of the few lawmakers on the gop side that is taking this position essentially against trump, right? not trying to sort of dance around it like we're seeing from some. not, you know, going full all in to his defense, but this is actually saying, he brought these charges upon himself. it's putting the accountability and responsibility in trump's lap, not necessarily surprising to hear it from the clinic. do you think this will give way to others now to take that position? >> i'm not sure. i would say thank you, mitt romney, for that perfectly timed

exception to the statement that nobody's willing to defend donald trump, but we all have followed mitt romney. i don't think it's a surprise that mitt romney would show this level of conviction. i do wonder though, are there other u.s. republican senators that would be willing to take a warmer light. he should be able to present his defense and let justice be what it is. that's not a crazy legal argument, that's the legal argument. maybe the silence turns into a recognition of law and order. i don't know if we will see that. certainly what we're learning in the early hours after the indictment is the political indictment continues to be the same as the bragg indictment. >> thank you all for joining us. up next, how does this indictment fit into the constellation of other cases trump is facing? you're watching special breaking news coverage of the trump

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i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. welcome back to our special breaking news coverage. the twice impeached and now twice indicted former president is still a favorite for the republican nomination. it's so hard to be believed. there's nothing preventing donald trump from taking up residency again in the white house because he's been federally charged or even if he is convicted in this case or of

the many other investigations still ongoing from january 6th to the election interference probe in georgia. joining us is julia ainsley and paul henderson, veteran prosecutor and trial attorney. julia, before we pivot to some of the other investigations still lurking there, do we know if the doj is considering unsealing this indictment before that tuesday court appearance? >> reporter: it's a big question. it's the reason why i'm down to the justice department, as are many other reporters, to see if we actually might hear something from attorney general garland here today. what that would take would be for prosecutors in this case to make a motion to unseal. since we understand that this indictment does include sensitive information, the courts have to elude to the documents he would have improperly shared or taken to mar-a-lago, that could make it a more complicated process to get to the unsealing. in the meantime they have to

deal with president trump going out and dealing with the narrative. the longer trump can control the narrative. so they're in a bind here to see how quickly they can get the sensitive information to a place where it could be unsealed, possibly going through and making some redactions. it's a complicated dance they have to walk. they themselves don't want to appear they're being politically motivated or they're sharing the very classified information that's at the heart of this in the first place. >> tons of questions for you. one of them is hearing regardless of any conviction, he would still be able to run for president. so i'm just thinking, is there anything in our country that can make you not possibly run for president, number one? number two, it seems as though this case is different than the other cases that we've seen the

former president involved with in new york. >> that's true. and the first part of your question, there isn't anything that's going to restrict him from running. nothing at all. >> convictions and all? >> convictions and all. even if he was convicted. even if he pleads. none of that matters sort of, because essentially the constitution only has three restrictions for a person running for president, that they be over the age of 35, they're a naturalized citizen, they've been in the country for 14 years. all of that is fair game. this is unchartered territory. even if the ex-president is convicted? how is he going to err is of if he is put into custody and run the country at the same time. >> of course he can pardon himself i suppose. >> he could pardon himself but you can only pardon yourself for federal crimes. if you are convicted and convicted of local and state crimes, then it's still there.

you could still serve time. you could still serve office. the bigger issues are -- and part of the reasons why the investigations thae on in the past, those investigations get suspended while you're serving and sitting as president. he's not president. he's trying to become the nominee. this is unchartered president. the bigger question with this and other cases, there are implications. for instance, if he's convicted of this and other cases, he can't even vote in the country that he could lead in the few fewer. that's a big deal. >> wow. >> the secondary issue is we have had some presidents where folks have been convicted of insurrection. in texas we've had an incident where a legislator was prevented from serving and this president is involved in that. that's another ongoing investigation. that restrict should could apply and that could determine what

happens -- you could conceivably not be allowed to vote? >> correct. 100%, with a conviction. >> but become president? >> that is correct. >> so when you talk about these other cases. two cases where he's faced indictments now. those will play out in court. there are other cases where investigations continue. we have the jack smith, special counsel january 6th probe. you have the georgia election interference ongoing investigation expecting perhaps some decision on whether any charges are coming this summer. >> correct. >> so he could face even more charges. how likely is that? and which do you think of these investigations should he be most worried about? >> i think he should be most worried about this investigation. he should be most worried about this indictment. this one has such clear evidence that we've already seen at the heart of this investigation, at

the heart of this case are going to be the words we've all seen, of donald trump saying to everyone, i could have declassified these documents when i was president and i didn't. well, there you go. you're going to hear a lot of his own statements used against him. himself on tape addressing what he's doing. it's not just a pile on. a lot of these case investigations were suspended while he was president even though we knew about them beforehand. there are big cases still in the pipeline, the veneer and the sheen is off of the president already. how far will it go will be determined by the jury but they could lead to serious implications for him even though those implications might not restrict him from being able to run for president, but the answer to that is going to be taken up by the republican party and voters. >> unchartered waters again, but what is he possibly facing? >> he's facing prison time.

>> do you think he will see it if convicted? >> you know, i don't -- with him, it's unprecedented territory. >> yes. >> we've never seen a president, ex-president face charges and investigations like this and so -- >> let's just say he were treated like any other american facing these charges -- >> now that's an easy question. absolutely, go to jail. this case specifically is so clear in terms of what the evidence is that twee already know even though they're arguing. we don't know what it is. they have the information. you get that like every other defendant. at arraignment you will find out. i did expect for their prosecution to have said something to have given us more information about what they were doing and why they were doing it, specifically, so they're

controlling the narrative, sharing out his own ri d dck u louse. you never see a defendant saying, here's the date, time, location which is what he did with the january 6th insurrection. trying to get people. turning it into a show. that's trying to change the narrative. you don't hear that he's doing that. did you do it? what about the evidence? you never hear the conversation focusing on the actual behavior. >> i thank you both so much for being with us. up next, the indictment and 2024. how will republican primary voters respond to trump's new legal baggage? plus, the latest reaction from trump 2024 rivals.

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trump's federal indictment sent a shock wave through the 2024 race for the presidency. right now we are keeping a close eye on derry, new hampshire, former vice president mike pence is setting up an event for the

first time since news of donald trump's indictment broke. this is something all of his republican rivals will be forced to confront. joining us is dasha burns. and republican strategist susan smyrkal. dasha, to you first. pence was scheduled to be on fox news last night but canceled. what can we expect to hear from the former vice president today? >> reporter: well, we do expect as he addresses voters here, he will mention the indictment. you're right, he was supposed to be on fox news with hannity last night. a source familiar tells me that the show turned into as we know fully about the indictment. they agreed to mutually find another time to talk. he went on to hugh hewitt's show

talking about the indictment. walking this interesting, very top fine line where he did use words like polite tieization, weaponization of law enforcement similar to what governor ron desantis tweeted last night and then he also talked about his own experience with the justice department. remember, he also was found to have classified documents. he said he worked with the justice department and he was not indicted. he did talk about how he is concerned how this is going to be divisive. this is a line we're going to hear from the former vice president. take a listen to what he said. >> i think it's important to know that we don't know the facts in this case, no one does. my only hope is as we learn about the facts of this indictment next week, that the american people will see in this

case that it would meet a high standard necessary to justify the unprecedented federal indictment of a former president of the united states by the current president of the united states justice department and by a potential rival. >> reporter: the question i have for a former vice president is what would meet that standard. when the indictment is unsealed and when the american people do know what is in that indictment, will the tone then change for him and his campaign and for some of the others? what will happen once we know the facts? will he stay with the same line or will things change in this race? >> susan, what we're hearing from the other candidates are

either, one, let's see what the facts are. or from what we heard from pence, having it both ways or trying to weaponize this against president biden, against the justice department and ron desantis talking about it being the justice department working politically here. at what point do they take a different stance and take trump and the actions alleged here head on? >> it depends on mchenry. we have to wait until the indictment is unsealed. you cannot be a person who says we're weaponizing the department of justice and then say that no one's above the law. no, you have to trust the department of justice. you have to trust our system of justice and see what happens. once this indictment is unsealed, we'll see what the

former president is charged with and i actually think the way asa hutchinson has handled it is quite nice. he's not saying it prevents him from running. he said drop out. >> he's the one candidate who said drop out. >> the fact that he's indicted disqualifies him from seeking office. >> it may be enough to disqualify him for some and trump is already fundraising off of this. he's already asking for donations to fight this. i'm just wondering, there's certainly a teflon donald trump. does he have teflon on steroids? is this something he can use to

his benefit now? >> to susan's point, the democrats have been weaponizing the justice department and committees particularly around impeachment. heretofor that's worked for them. the challenge for donald trump or anyone who wants to support him is let me steal a phrase from the washington post. breadth and simplicity of this case suggesting that all of what we know about the -- about what donald trump did, what the process has done, it suggests that it is difficult to look away from this. it's difficult to outright dismiss it. you have to pay attention to it. i imagine that the majority of his supporters are going to stay with him. but if you are an independent voter or a disenfranchised republican, how does donald trump or any one of the gop leaders rest those individuals

from voting from him? they may not but they may not come out and vote at all. he may be teflon to some extent, but to asa hutchinson's point and susan's point, he is a drag to the party and the ticket. >> he's a fighter and so he is just embracing this indictment it seems. he's holding a fundraising indictment birthday party and we're seeing the fundraising emails, jose. one of the things i'm wondering is what breaks him? donald trump has always treated his legal problems as a pr problem and a fundraising opportunity, of course. he will continue down that path because, frankly, he doesn't have any other options. he can't defend himself against clear actions he has taken just in his own words we know that. but i think he -- it's not so

much that he's jeopardizing his position in a republican primary. what he keeps doing to the point and we're starting to see polls is making himself an unelectable general election candidate and we're seeing that especially with independents and turning away when they see this type of indictment, not so much the one that happened in new york a month or so ago, but this one and a couple of others if they come true, that is turning around independents who were leaning towards trump maybe six months ago because they were unhappy with biden, but now they are now deeming him not a viable choice in november and that's donald trump's going to speak because if you are a small donor, grassroots donor, you still are engaged and attached to trumpism i will give your money. but big donors like to make candidates, they like to be able to push you over the top. >> >> or win. >> and win. if they believe that you're unelectable in a general

election certainly, if they believe it's going to take more of their effort and money to do what you should be doing on your own, they're going to sit out. they may not completely back away from him, but they will sit out for a period of time and what that does is it gives his opponents in the primary an opportunity to start deaths by 1,000 cuts. >> real quick, basil, i know we have to get to a quick break but do you think democrats are best to hold their fire right now so they don't fuel the fire that trump is trying to establish? >> keep your powder dry, stay out of the fray, continue to govern. whether you think joe biden is a managerial president, i don't see that in a pejorative way, you may not love him, you may not think he is a leader -- a leader of a movement, but he's getting the job done. just keep doing your job. keep governing, keep doing good policy. >> dasha and susan and basil, thank you for being with us this morning. up next the white house responds to the federal indictment of a former president

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ughh - kayak. search one and done. just moments ago we saw president biden boarding air force one and he ignored shouted questions from reporters on trump's indictment. president biden is on his way to north carolina, keeping to his white house schedule, trying to get really distance between himself and other parts of his administration and the special counsel's move to federally indict his predecessor. let's go to nbc news white house correspondent monica alba who has more now on how the white house is responding to this indictment. monica, what do you know about their strategy moving forward as well? >> reporter: well, anna and josé, it sounds like silence may be one of the best strategies here for the white house and it's something we got a glimpse of when the former president was indicted in new york recently and we saw this white house say something they've been talking

about forever as it relates to the department of justice and ongoing legal matters, saying they're simply not going to comment or weigh in on it. really pointing to the fact that candidate biden campaigned on making the department of justice independent, to maintain its credibility and integrity after what they say his predecessor had done during the trump administration. so yesterday in that video you're seeing right there the president hours before news of the indictment did respond to my colleague peter alexander asking him to try to -- try to detail to americans why they should believe that the department of justice is independent and he responded in his own words, because i haven't weighed in and because i'm honest. now, a few hours later, fast forward to when all of this happened last night, i'm told by a white house official that they didn't get any kind of a heads up before the news broke. that the president learned about the development from senior staff who showed him news reports after it had come out and that in that intervening time the white house has maintained its position that

they are not going to touch this. they don't want to weigh in. they want to maintain this independence, but of course it becomes an ongoing conversation in the white house given some of the other ongoing investigations that even relate to the current president with very key differences on classified documents. anna and josé. >> monica alba in washington, thank you very much. much more special coverage in our next hour for this historic first ever federal indictment of a former president. >> including what a former member of robert mueller's team says about how the doj could prosecute a former president and what voters are telling us this morning as this news ripples across the country. we're back after a short break. stay right there.

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