>> good evening and welcome to msnbc's continuing special coverage of the special counsel 's indictment of donald j trump i'm alex wagner and i'm joined here but my colleagues ari melber, joy reid, chris hayes, and lawrence o'donnell. for the first time in our nation's history the federal government has charged former

president with multiple crimes. and for the first time since this investigation began america heard directly from the man in charge, special counsel jack smith. >> today, and indictment was unseed. charging donald j trump with felony violations of our national security laws as well as participating in a conspiracy to obstruct justice. adherence to the rule of law is the bedrock principle of the department of justice in our nation's commitment to the rule of law sits an example for the world. we have one set of laws in this country, and they've let everyone. >> the 38 count indictment against trump and his personal and now codefendant walt nauta accuses the former president of 30 accounts of willful retention of national defense information, three counts of withholding or concealing documents in a federal investigation, two counts of false statements, and one count of conspiracy to obstruct

justice. according to the indictment the classified documents trump stored in these boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states and foreign countries. united states nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to military attack, and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. the indictment paints a vivid in damning picture of how former president handled some of our nation's most closely held secrets. he kept them in a bowl room, he kept them in a bathroom, and a shower. he kept them in an unsecured storage room, all within the reach of many members of this private club, the government says hosted offense for tens of thousands of members and guests during that time. at one point a trump employee found the contents of several boxes spilled close to the floor for anyone to see. but trump didn't just unlawfully retain these documents. according to the indictment,

after the fbi ordered the return of all these classified information trump him self personally sifted through it. he had all of it moves around his florida property and when it came time to finally give it up trump gave his own lawyer access to less than half the boxes in his possession. it notes taken by one of trump 's lawyers trump's had to have told them i don't want anybody looking, i don't want anybody looking through my boxes, i really don't. i don't want you looking through my boxes. wouldn't it be better if we just told them we don't have anything here? >> i want to turn on my panel. chris let me just with you. in terms of the sense of kind of childlike desperation around all of this, and the degree to which trump himself is physically blowing through all these boxes to the degree that it one point walt nauta his coconspirator has to access for new bucks tops. aubrey from the night

indictment, on january 15th 2022 nauta sent trump a plea in four consecutive text messages. one thing you asked for is new cover for these boxes for monday morning. >> can we get new box covers before giving them on monday? these boxes have too much writing on them, i'm mark too much. when can only assume that those markings were indicative of what trump wanted done with the boxes. >> and i think that this because, and this comes through once a few points of the indictment, most clearly in the part where he's attempting to get back at mark milley by referring to a classified document. he's waving it around at the table in bedminster. the documents are valuable to donald trump for precisely the reason they are valuable to the united states government, and

they would be valuable to foreign governments. they are secret information that in their secrecy contain a kind of power. that power is the thing that he wants to wield. for whatever and. to pursue a petty grievance with mark milley, in the other case he's talking about a map, he's talking to a person proofs super pac, politically. my hunch here is it's a map of afghanistan and has to do with political faults of whose fault the end of afghanistan's, but that's my best guess. what does example show is that it's specifically curated information that has some kind of value or power for donald trump that he wants to keep anyone's government not to have because he wants to use them for whatever end, whatever token he might pay, whatever vendetta he might pursue. >> do we have the video, can

show can tell me, of the wall street journal tour that trump gives up his office. let's play that. this i think, let's just say the motive actually doesn't matter in an espionage case. but this is the video where you get a sense of what a pack rat donald trump's. how he holds on to these important mementos. and at this point 2015 the import mementos are shaq shoe, world wrestling federation bell, various trophies. there's a lot of stuff there, joy. and i think it is indicative of a certain psychology and mindset, again, the motive doesn't matter in an espionage case. but people wonder why did this man keep all this stuff? >> if you think about why he wanted to be president, right, it wasn't because he had some great passion for america. he ran saying america is basically in-esque whole country under obama. he didn't express great patriotism or love of country. he essentially wanted to be president to aggrandize him self. everything he's done in his career is to aggrandize i'm self. it is logical to assume he just wanted things to further aggrandized him self. the thing that is frightening is that donald trump's associations are not just meant to make him feel better, like he likes putin because putin says he smart. but he also likes putin. right, he has a son in law who couldn't get a security clearance -- jared kushner to mar-a-lago.

he's associates himself. he had not seen the lunch. there are a lot of people that donald trump associates with because they aggrandized him. but he also associated with a lot of people who were pretty dangerous. so i think the thing is even when he's being silly and a goofball and what did you call him, gollum? but the precious is to have the documents. he's literally having the moved in little pieces, 30, here ten there, 15 there. he's having them moved in a weeklong exodus of these documents then when the actual documents -- he's obsessed. but he's also dangerous. you have to balance the comedy that in this, which it is quite comedic, with the fact that his associations and the people he's obsessed with making dangerous >> you use the word power, the weather you are authorized to have this at the type of power or not. the country is now facing this and there will be people who are so extreme in partisan but they already think he is guilty and convicted in their mind, that's not how our system work. he has to face facts in court. there are others that don't want to look at the facts and

think that he can do no wrong. but in the main, what our test is going to be in court and as a nation is dealing with all of the evidence and facts that he was trying to wield unauthorized power he no longer had. we see these words, no one's above the law. what does that mean? go you can have access to high grade weapons that are not otherwise available and when you leave the military you can't get back in. i don't mean to make light of this it all e -- a person who's in a military scenario has that access to those powers including the power to even potentially kill abroad. and the day that ends is over. yes they might have been in service, he was through the. electoral college robert's. i would like in this to the

other probe, jack smith, that we see how he acts. there is a commonality we haven't discussed a ton tonight between the mindset of january 6th in the mindset of trying to hold on to nuclear secrets. and both of them was that he wanted to literally overthrow democracy first on the sixth and second by still doing what chris describes but nuclear secrets. >> lawrence, the collateral damage here is not just american democracy, it's america's role in the world. because we basically need to prove to our allies that we can keep secrets again. and in that way, what happens here is going to have geopolitical impacts. >> i strongly suspect that certainly our major allies are actually pretty relieved when they read the details as their intelligence communities will of this indictment. because i think it expresses to them very clearly this is the kind of stuff that was there.

they knew all the stuff, there's probably nothing in there that are major allies wouldn't have themselves one way or another. and they see, okay, you have this kind of renegade operation going on in florida with your national security material and you guys grabbed it. you took care of it, you won't work on it. you appointed a special prosecutor and six and a half months later he is indicted, the former president of the united states. it took him six and a half months to master the entire case and say here it is, and we did it. so it's actually, i think, a very impressive demonstration to the french, to the british,

to the major allies we have around the world who know that possibly some of their material was there. but we really handled it thoroughly and well. >> just to say what are you said about the office, it's the office not the man, it's the peoples documents. you can't say i was president on january 20th, i want to fire up the nuclear codes in the 23rd. you can't say i want to order a drone strike -- >> the only caveat is this man is still running for president. it is an open question about what this does to his candidacy. he wants to be back there again which throws into sharp relief the stakes. this is what he's doing when he doesn't have power. >> and his legal strategy is in this case is to be president again and to survive it by being able to be president again and pardon himself.

so now there's an increased intensity to his need to be president. he wants to be president because he wants the power back, now he needs to be president to survive. >> one of his impeachment lawyers said on air today said if he wins back the white house he can just dismiss this. she'll order his new a. g. to dismiss this case. >> we knew that before he announced his candidacy. we knew that basically the rest of his life was going to be spent as defendant trump, either as a criminal defendant appealing convictions, and certainly as a civil defendant which is going to be for the rest of his life. so his next presidential campaign now already underway was always going to be a campaign to re-zoom the pardon power for himself. he was always going to do that. but i'm so struck by where we are at this hour tonight. because 48 hours ago, 48 hours ago i was 45 minutes away from conducting an interview with the most recent former member of the trump criminal defense team. there are now two new ones today. and in that interview and our interview with the same lawyer

before that here is what couldn't be established, from him. when did donald trump ever look at the contents of any of the boxes? he didn't know. what was the document that was -- every question you asked, he wanted to spend a tremendous amount of time which i understand because in all the exchanges with the archives before you get to what is the beginning of this criminal case, in the beginning of this criminal case is the defiance of the subpoena. and once he tried to talk to him about anything that takes place after the defiance of the subpoena he offers you absolutely nothing. including the possibility that donald trump never looked at

any of these boxes at all. this document today just erases literally races every single thing that is trump's criminal defense lawyer has said on television prior to last night. every single word they have said has been erased. >> and yet he will probably get some new lawyers whoever they may be for whatever reason. the person who has a stake in that donald trump reelection is e walt nauta. we will talk about him coming up, he's probably the de facto chair of a new reelect on trump super pac at this point. lawrence o'donnell, i heard you had a show at ten pm on msnbc, so -- so i'm going to let you go get ready for that show. >> take as long as you want when it rolls up to ten pm don't feel any -- >> will traditionally do. >> it's nothing religious about that ten pm. >> you will get it on time tonight sir. the rest of you stay seated please i special coverage continues after this break.

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going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. we can have someone, we can't have someone in the oval office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified. we also need the best protection of classified information. no one will be above the law.

>> when donald trump, the man who ran a campaign in 2016 promising to strengthen laws concerning classified information is now, as a former president, facing 37 federal charges for his mishandling of classified materials after leaving the white house including 31 alleged violations of the espionage act. trump is being charged specifically under the espionage act, the part that goes against whoever willfully retains national defense information and failed to deliver on demand to the officer or employee of the united states entitled to receive it. free to be a violation of the espionage act information does not have to be classified which is important to consider given that central to trump's defense here is the idea that at some point somewhere he declassify the documents he had in his possession although recently unearthed evidence on tape suggests he didn't know such thing. and once again joined here by my colleagues, joy reid, chris hayes -- i want to bring back the

hardest thinking man in hollywood enter weisman. today on trump's truth social donald trump has this to say. strange, he's talking about this picture of classified documents on the floor. everything about the boxes was so neat, orderly, and clean. did the fbi tip over the one box the way they staged the papers on the floor during the raid of mar-a-lago only to apologize after getting caught? you pointed this out, andrew. none of the information in the indictment is from the fbi. it's from trump's own people. that seems deeply meaningful here. >> absolutely. and not only is it his own people but it's not his own people with a lot of baggage like michael cohen where you are putting someone on the stand were you on the what you're getting which is a guy who speaks to the media all the time and has admitted to committing perjury. that's not an easy witness to have on the stand. here, let's see, you've attorneys 12 and three, that would be his personal attorney 's. you've employees one and two. the photo that we just saw was taken by an employee. that's not taken by the fbi. so donald trump can sit there and say, was this taken by the

fbi? no, that would be by one of his employees. and there's going to be metadata to prove that. in other words, on the phone where they push got that information is going to say this is taken on this day in this time. you can't make that stuff up. >> there's a connection between the cohen case, you had trump's lawyer being induced to participate in a crime, and then donald trump like the scooby-doo villain that he has signed the reimbursement check in the oval office with his big magic marker. in that case as well, whatever you want to say about michael cohen, he's got receipts to. in this case you've got tapes, you've got the fall guy in this case doing all of the box moving and there's a security for its surveillance video when you've got the lawyer who's playing the michael cohen in this case, mr. corcoran, who is schumer's attorney number one rating contemporaneous notes

saying he's asking me to crime, let me go ahead and take notes of all the crime-ing but he's asking me to do. >> evan corcoran still investigating donald trump and it blows my mind. >> it reminds me of the prime minister of england where the joke was is she going to last longer -- i think with mr. corcoran you can say how long do we really think he is going to continue recommending, representing him. donald trump has to read this and say one of the governments star witnesses -- >> is my lawyer -- >> exactly. >> a cabbage looks like it has a long shelf life compared to -- i want to bring in john brennan, former director of the cia and now msnbc intelligence analyst. sir, thank you so much for joining us. i would like to know what it is like for someone who is the former director of the cia to see these photos of the sensitive documents stored in showers, in bathrooms, splayed out on the floor, what is your reaction to that? >> looking at those photos and

the indictments i shuttered throughout. especially when i saw the classification markings. and a very clear careless and slipshod way that these documents were left unsecured for so long. it contains some of the most highly sensitive intelligence this country has for potential mass security. i will point out that the indictment listed at 31 documents but according to the indictments section see it says that in august of last year the subpoena there were over 100 documents that we see. so this is just a subset of documents that are listed actually in that indictment. but that is because the great sensitivity, you can see a very short synopsis of what it contains because the contents of it themselves are so revealing. at the top secret level, the highest classification, the highest handling procedures in the u.s. government has these documents involved. >> i have a follow-up to that which is there is some talk about the sensitivity of some of these documents, is so extraordinary, is it your sense

that the most sensitive documents aren't even accounted for in this indictment because it would be hard to litigate them? >> well, and i would defer the answer on that as far as how to litigate them. it's going to be very hard to present them and it's been talked about before, the classified information provides the mechanisms that some of the very highly sensitive information can be shared in chambers with the judge, with the court, with defense attorneys. but i'm sure the intelligence committee is trying to keep as much information out of even those areas because of the high sensitivity of it. but what i think the intelligence community is going to do is try to be as forthcoming as possible. they are not going to declassify this material -- they would have sensitivity of this information and how much damage will be done because it's unsecure. i do think that jack smith and his team are going to be working to determine the exact procedures in place if they are going to be able to either rely on classified summaries or the heads of the intel community and maybe show some of them in chambers, but i'm sure they are keeping that under observation

because it's just so revealing. -- human networks, collection systems, other things, it would be really devastating i'm so concerned that this information was left for so long i'm sure mar-a-lago was on the target list for a lot of foreign intelligence services that could've easily gotten in there. but investing the -- staff, visitors, members of the club. if they go in there they are not going to steal the documents but they will take photos of it and try to make sure that they are able to gather as much as possible without leaving anything, any evidence of what might have been compromised. >> john, this is chris hayes, i want to ask you about the. there is reporting about mar-a-lago counterintelligence concern from very early on, when he was the president of the united states.

you worked a career intelligence, can you think of any analog or precedent for a place like mar-a-lago, this strange mix of public, private porous location with holding top secrets. >> none whatsoever. the u.s. government has a lot of facilities, and a lot of those facilities contain classified information. but these are important facilities. they have saved, they have rooms with alarms, they have guards. they will be protected because of the nature. but to leave it out like that in a private club and just strewn about indifferent rooms,

ballrooms in bathrooms or whatever. that could be accessed easily but just any normal person. but sophisticated intelligence services overseas they have amazing amount of ways that they can find to get access to this facility and giggling information from it. so that's why it's going to be so hard for the intelligence community to determine what actually has been compromised and which of those collections systems might need to be turned off or suspended for a while or which sources need to be infiltrated in order to protect their lives because, again, these things are just so sensitive. it takes billions of dollars, many years, and some real courage and bravery on the part of foreign nationals who work for us as well as cia officers --

>> director, one more question on that front. republicans in congress have been sort of hiding behind the fact that the intelligence community assessment regarding the implications, the fallout from the retention of these documents. that assessment is not complete and they are saying we don't know yet what damage, if any, has been done to national security. you are suggesting that assessment is quite complicated. is your outside guest that this is going to take quite some time longer? i know that it's hard to sort of predict but give us a sense of how long that can be a line of argument from opponents of this indictment? >> quite frankly i don't think the intelligence community will ever be able to determine what has, or might have been compromised. there wasn't coverage in the areas where the documents might've been held. we don't know what might have happened during this period of time. be intelligence community is going to have to make some judgments about whether or not there are any indications that sources have been compromised,

collection systems are now known to our foreign adversaries. so they are going to have to do the best they can but it's going to be over the course of i think many years to determine whether or not, whether the documents down there were in fact compromised to the detriment of our sources and the intelligence community. >> former cia director john brennan with some valuable analysis of what is happening here. really appreciate it. >> chris hayes, thank you for having this long. coming back from far flung places to be part of this moment in news, really appreciate it if you to be back with more special coverage of the federal indictment of former president donald trump right after the break stay with us

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this nation because it goes to the core of equal justice for all, which is not being seen today, and we are not going to stand for it. the republican party has violence to behind donald trump, as he faces today's multiple felony count indictment as well as other looming investigations. today before the indictment was unsealed, congressman jim jordan sent a letter to attorney general merrick garland doubling down on the house judiciary committee's

request for additional information regarding the fbi search of mar-a-lago. other republicans took it to another level. representative clay higgins of louisiana sent out this tweet, where he used what appears to be military code words to tell trump supporters to buckle up, and even clearer message came from representative andy biggs of arizona who said quote, we have now reached a war phase. eye for an eye. i am once again joined here by michael leagues choi read, andrew weizmann, are in alberta and i want to welcome to the desk stephanie role, who was the 11th hour. hey staff. >> hi. >> so trump, when the alvin bragg indictment was looming, he had sort of sent out the clarion call for his supporters to come to new york en masse, and do whatever trump supporters do which is sometimes violence, oftentimes loud. what is your expectation in all of this? given a clear cut this indictment is, given the gravity of the information we are talking about being compromised? is this a signal moment for trump supporters? should we be focused on that?

>> listen, trump's hard-core base is going to be his hard-core base for the foreseeable future. what i'm looking at our, we are the big, big donors going to go? at the end of the day, the big donors basically hold their pants, and hold their checkbook's, and really try to figure out, we don't care about the incidents and politics. they want to know who is going to be in that white house, who is going to take my call and get what i needed on, and he was going to keep my taxes low. so they are sitting back right now and watching this, because when you look at what donald trump is doing, he is in a classic donald trump playbook, right? the true thing we have ever heard him say is i could shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. and since then what happened? two impeachment trials, he keeps on trucking. right? he's in the white house continue to comingle his private business with being the president. they leave the white house, he continues to raise money. he's going to voter fraud from that we don't know that money is spent, and while his daughter and son-in-law make more money than they have ever thought of in their lives. the question now isn't is he going to lose his supporters?

they are going to stick with him, because politically, he knows how to play a game. now he is facing the law. and he is facing the doj, which is essentially the biggest, most powerful law firm in the world, and he doesn't even have a big powerful law from defending him. he's got one guy from here, one guy from there, and he is looking for a third. i was just saying to andrew, when tom barrack was on trial, he had two major law firms locked arms, right? with extraordinary lawyers there where it is a role. trump's got a circus with people falling off the circus train day and day, out and that's what's astounding to me. you're going up against the doj with what? >> yes, with what? huge question mark. to your point staff about what, there's a question about trump's violently calling supporters in around miami, there's a question of his supporters in terms of their voting habits, and the donor question, the power question. is this the moment -- i can't believe i'm asking this.

but is this the moment where republicans say, you know what? we do have other alternatives. chris christie today, on cnn. this conduct is particularly awful for someone who has been president and who aspires to be president again. it is a very, very evidence filled indictment. that's as far out as anybody who was ever run for presidency in 2020 has gone on the republican side of the aisle. i just wonder, joy, how do you think the ron desantis of the world play this? if you had an opponent who is facing several -- 37 counts you will probably talk about on the campaign trail, and yet, open question about similar ron desantis? >> asa hutchins will give him credit, that also kind of several like chris christie. but chris christie, and a citizens have been former prosecutor. >> mitch mcconnell's here? >> mcconnell is quiet. the problem is, all the incentive structures in the republican party still favor donald trump, and so we should mention chris christie did prosecute jared kushner's dad. so you know, he's got some

feelings and emotions that are involved here. but the problem for desantis is not only that he does not know how to pronounce his last name, but his incentive structures are crazy. they are just off the charts. on the one hand, he is the only person pulling in double digits. so in a way, trump going down is great for him. but the problem is, his whole strategy has been to try to co-opt trump space by going even further right than trump. trump's mean, i am meaner. trump does not like schools? i am going to chase teachers into the coat closet and slam the door behind them. i am going to persecute lgbtq people, i'm going to persecute black folks, i'm going to persecute the immigrants who literally fuel the economy of my state. i'm gonna persecute mickey mouse. i am even wilder than donald trump. so the main incentive structure for him, if that is his game, say i'm going to also pardon trump. i am also gerald ford. if you like me, i will protect

trump. but trump, you and i both know, anyone who has paid attention to trump. trump will never humble himself, to this man who used to dress his kid in a trump onesie, and who he thinks is subordinate. he will never humble himself to desantis, and that is what desantis needs. >> chris christie has nothing to lose, he is being backed by rich wall street republicans who want to see donald trump get punched in the face, and they are saying chris christie might be a human sacrifice here because he might not come out on top, but maybe he is that clears trump, and opens the path for one of these are the republicans, and then christie can say, have a cabinet position for me? because you know jared kushner squished in the last time he. one. >> yeah, chris christie raising us have a cabinet position. wherever seen that before? joy reid, and my friend. thank you for being for here, thank the rest of, you also tireless, also brilliant. msnbc special coverage continues right after the. break stay with us.

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preside over the federal criminal case against former president donald trump, at least for now. it is judge alien cannon, and if that name sounds familiar to you it's because this is not the first time she has been involved in this. case it was judge cannon who earlier in a documents investigation, appointed a special master to review the thousands of documents seized from mar-a-lago, stalling the governments investigation. higher court later overruled her.

and it will be judge cannon who oversees trump's arraignment next tuesday afternoon, and determines whether to set a trial date before the 2024 election. i am joined again by my esteemed colleagues, stephanie ruhle, andrew weissmann, and -- i want to welcome to the desk the great nbc senior legal correspondent laura jarrett. laura and, andrew this questions especially for you, laura. but aileen can, and controversial figure in judicial circles and media circles, and just casual onlookers. how did she get assigned this case? and truly, how much power does she have at this moment to derail it? >> to hear it from the public information officer down the, this is supposed to be around him assignment. despite the fact that she does has some past history with this case, there is not some related case doctrine that was a civil case, this is a criminal case. this was random. there is some issue about exactly what the pool of judges might be? i know there's some reporting out there that suggested who might be as many as 15, we

think it actually might be a little bit smaller than that. put that aside. the point is, the justice department has to be feeling a little bit of heat about the fact that this is the judge that they pulled, on this might be that judge that they are stuck with, on this might be the judge that does have the power to either slow this case down a law, or dismiss the whole thing. >> yes, and that is a dramatic amount of power, andrew. as much as people are saying, look at this indictment, it's artful, it's watertight. aileen cannon could basically squashed this whole thing. >> she has enormous power. i do think that there are limits on, could she get rid of the whole thing. that's -- where. >> or delay it until it becomes -- >> exactly. if she's smart, so far have to say her rulings have not been. her rulings were reversed twice. by a conservative court of appeal. so she is not really shown, you know, her best.

but it would be -- if she did the dramatic step of just dismissing the indictment, you have to have a reason for that, and that can be appealed. so i am less worried about that. there is another way to do it which is much easier, and very hard to appeal, which is just delay. >> yeah. >> and so you essentially accomplish the same thing you are saying, usually you know? my calendars really busy, we're gonna have a love discovery, we will have a lot of motions, and this gets put off. that can be a big bottleneck. >> isn't the type of thing trump? lawrence. >> of course. any dependent once delay, you've assume that when you are defendant, and adjournment is an acquittal. this is -- no defendant is really loyally thinking. >> yes, exactly. >> not only in the room, but around the country. >> that's your audience right there. >> an audience of maybe one. so, i do think that one of the things that has to be thinking now, and really jack smith, what are your options? one is to really drill down on how this actually happen?

you know, is it truly random within the pool of judges, you know, who are in the right location, and could hear a case that is at least this long? so there's reasons to think that it could've been random within a very small denominator. so, that's not what happened. but, because of her prior rulings, and just how bad they were, and that's not me, that's the 11th circuit twice saying that. does that give enough ground for the government to try and say, you should recuse yourself. that is a hard route to go down. >> can they force a recusal, or canada's request it, right? i would like you to recuse yourself? >> no. >> it holds nothing. >> you could make a motion for. or, you could make grounds for, you should the judge -- themselves >> does she get to decide? >> he gets to decide, by the chief judge also gets to decide. but again, it is not something that first the government has unilateral power at all.

and it is very hard thing to do. >> just to point out, the special counsel's office has proven itself to be way ahead of just about every one. nobody even knew they had the second grand jury open until recently. nobody knew they had the corcoran tapes until the new york times advance that in the past weekend. we've learned a lot in just the past two weeks. and andrew has pointed out that they also had heavily researched the circuit split for the possible venue appeal if there were double jeopardy claim, which is very arcane. i had that one purpose, which is to say they have been ahead of a lot of things. they know about her because of the history recorded, alex. they obviously have to have been ready for it. if we bring us in florida, we could get different types of judges than you might see, and they went forward that way. so they certainly have to be prepared with some plan b and see here. >> but it is a corcoran notes that she might actually keep out, and that's the thing -- >> and that is cause for great

concern given this indictment. we will take a quick break, we'll have a final thought on the special counsel's indictment of former president donald. trump stay with us.

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coverage of the federal indictment of donald trump. and laura jarrett, as we were going to break, he started talking about one of the crucial roles that the judge assigned to this case, alien cannon. one of the crucial things she can oversee which is the sufficient evidence, which evidence is allowing into. this talk to me a little bit more about what she might want to stop from being presented as evidence? >> so one of the things we now have a better view of is exactly what prosecutors wanted evan corcoran for. we knew that they were able to pierce through the attorney client privilege, which is viewed as sacrosanct, that is

not a small thing to be able to pierce that privilege. in order to do that, they have to show that the advice was used to for the crime, and we now understand much better than i think we did even before, there was so much great reporting. obviously, trump's attorneys want to keep that out. that is very damning evidence, and they will file motions to try to exclude it, and on those motions will go to judge cannon. and so she takes out all of the notes that he transcribed in this narrative for him, and he was clearly disturbed by some of his interactions with his current client. let's make it clear, he is still a client. he may not be a client on this matter, but he is at least, as far as we last checked, still representing him as it relates to january 6th. >> and andrew weissmann, you pointed out. will he be a lawyer for donald trump longer than are ripe peach can sit on a grocery store shelf? to borrow a metaphor. you know, it seems like there could be an appeals process involving judge aileen cannon.

>> yes, but to that point, she makes a crazy ruling that keeps something out, they have to appeal. it. >> delay? >> delay. she makes another crazy ruling, they have to appeal it. and at that point, if it goes past the election in many ways, donald trump gets what he needs. which is the trial not happening before the election. and just to be clear, that is something that the american public is hurt by that, and the american public, whichever way the jury goes really should have a decision on this. and frankly, even if you are a donald trump, you would want that. you want to be, like you know what? i want to be cleared by this. so that really should be fewer, an honest broker. you would be trying if you are judged to say, with consistent, with the process to the defendant, this should go as fast as possible, because the public has such a vital interest in knowing what happened. here. >> let's just also say, this is

not the only investigation, jack smith probe of the donald trump's role in the january 6th insurrection is ongoing, there is of course phony will as the dea down atlanta, there's a lot of calendar ring that has to happen, presumably, on the coming months. plus, oh yeah that thing, a 2024 presidential. >> you are from jack smith today, he spoke briefly, but he made a point of saying. the defendant for his own rights deserves a speedy trial. and this will also be another testing point. yes, as we have discussed, there are people who are fully bought in, or mines close. there are a lot of americans who want to see what is happening. if you are running for president, and also try to run out the clock, rather than deal with the facts, that is a bad sign. that is separate from your legal process, but again, this is not someone donald trump, who was lonnie last time, exactly one people over, or one over independents, or independent minded veterans and national security folks. so he is legally presumed innocent, and if he can win in court, glass. but running up the clock to avoid your day in court is not the right look. >> you had said all moments ago that jack smith was prepared for this, that it could be a lean. how much of a blow is it to

jack smith that she was in fact selected? >> well base -- is a great question. stephanie based on the rulings we are whereof, as well as what we know what federal judges, she is probably one of the toughest, most adverse federal judges you could draw for this -- >> for jack smith? and he was willing to risk, that he was clearly more willing to risk it, more willing about venue, more worried that this case would get tossed out by not filing it in the right place that he was willing to take a gamble on judge cannon. >> jack smith as a gambling man. lawyers, stephanie ruhle, andrew weissmann, and ari melber. thank you for being here, and lending your expertise, that does it for our special coverage of the indictment of donald. trump now it is time for the last world with lawrence o'donnell, getting in. lawrence . >> good evening avalanche, and could you tell andrew weizmann the way down the hall. >> he's running down the right now! >> we're gonna need him here. we're gonna continue the coverage, alex, thank you very much. >> have a gre