jack smith that she was in fact selected? >> well base -- is a great question. stephanie based on the rulings we are whereof, as well as what we know what federal judges, she is probably one of the toughest, most adverse federal judges you could draw for this -- >> for jack smith? and he was willing to risk, that he was clearly more willing to risk it, more willing about venue, more worried that this case would get tossed out by not filing it in the right place that he was willing to take a gamble on judge cannon. >> jack smith as a gambling man. lawyers, stephanie ruhle, andrew weissmann, and ari melber. thank you for being here, and lending your expertise, that does it for our special coverage of the indictment of donald. trump now it is time for the last world with lawrence o'donnell, getting in. lawrence >> this is a special katie

phang show, live from miami florida. we have a lot of news to cover a lot of questions answered. let's get started. unprecedented indictment. the one term ex president, donald trump, now has two indictments to match his two impeachments. that special counsel jack smith breaks his silence on trump's stunning 37 criminal counts and classified documents case. plus, they have receipts. the photos allegedly showing boxes of top secret documents hidden at mar-a-lago, in a ballroom, even a bathroom. i want to know is this any way to treat our national security secrets? and on the road again later today, donald trump is hitting the campaign trail. what will his message now be to voters admits his federal indictment? our in-depth coverage of this remarkable moment in united states history begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and a good saturday morning to you. i am katie phang. we start with history unfolding before our very eyes.

donald trump is now the first president ever to be indicted on federal charges. here is special counsel jack smith speaking publicly for the first time, just hours after that 38 count indictment was unsealed. >> today, an indictment was unsealed. charging donald j trump, with felony violations, over national security laws, as well as participating in a conspiracy to obstruct justice. this indictment was voted by a grand jury of citizens, in the southern district of florida. i invite everyone to read it in full, to understand the scope, and the gravity of the crimes charged. >> we have one set of laws in this country, and they apply to everyone. >> the indictment charges donald trump with a 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information under the espionage act. the charges also include making false statements, a conspiracy to obstruct justice and

withholding and concealing records. the indictment also has some searing revelations, prosecutors describe two instances in which donald trump showed off the classified documents to others. bragging about how they were quote, secret. and it comes with receipts. pictures allegedly showing boxes upon boxes of classified documents stored in a bathroom at mar-a-lago, and other bizarre places. now, this coming tuesday, trump will appear in court in miami, where he will be booked, and he will be arraigned. nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, ken delaney joins me live from miami. ken, you have been outside of that federal courthouse for a few days. you have seen a lot, but tuesday, just right around the corner. so what can we expect a trump's arraignment? >> good morning katie. look, if trump, if mr. trump is treated like any other federal defendant, as you said, he will be bulk, he has to surrender, either to the fbi, or the marshals.

he will have his mugshot taken. although it will be released, his fingerprints taken, his passport will be confiscated. he will go through that entire process, which in of itself, we saw it in new york, but this is different, this is the federal government, the government he used to run. which is just remarkable. then he will go to court for a combination of a first appearance, and in arraignment. and as you know, he will be offered a reading of the indictment, which most defendants usually wave. he will ask for a plea. we expect him to plead not guilty. then we will find out what if any conditions the magistrate will impose on him. of course no one thinks that he's a candidate for detention. he's not gonna be ordered to jail. but the magistrate, will they put restrictions on, for example, how he can attack and criticize the prosecutors or the judge, or other players in this case as he has been known to do about the legal system and other matters he's involved in. that is something we're watching for. in terms of the security

situation, you know, this is a downtown courthouse, with a perimeter that in theory could be blocked off and secured. it's unclear at the moment what kind of demonstrations or protests authorities are expecting. remember, we did not see very much in new york. the wave of arrests in wake of capitol riots may have had some deterrent effect on some of mr. trump's supporters, who may want to come in be rowdy, and even violent to a situation like that. but it remains to be seen. it's a big concern among federal marshals, courthouse security fbi, and miami police about just what will happen on tuesday. and how they will secure this courthouse. katie. >> ken, before i let you go. are you seeing anything on site outside of the courthouse? have you seen any protesters? any supporters? or opponents of donald trump may be getting together outside already? >> not yet. it's early. we're seeing chickens.

>> i hear them. >> no protesters. but, we will keep you posted along the way as we see that. but so far, we have not katie. >> candidly. i thank you for getting started early this morning. live from the courthouse in miami florida. joining me now for more in-depth conversation is bradley moss, national security attorney and charles coleman journey -- and former brooklyn prosecutor. listen, gentlemen, having both of you this morning, actually right now, just charles, but charles, i'm more than happy to start with you. i know you and i both, as former prosecutors, are looking for, you know, the goods. so when we look at this indictment, explicitly setting forth the types of documents that were found at mar-a-lago, in specificity, we're talking white house intel briefings, relating to military capabilities of foreign countries. u.s. military planning, u.s. military weaponry. i mean, it doesn't take a

national security specialists to be concerned about how much of a national security nightmare it actually was at mar-a-lago, right? >> no katie. if there's anyone out there i'm excited to talk to about this case it's you. were both former prosecutors. so both of us have a unique perspective around this and this indictment. jack smith, this week, did exactly what prosecutors are supposed to do. we have been waiting for months to see what the special counsel's office ultimately would deliver. with this indictment, with all of the details and evidence set forth, granted, it is a prosecutors document. but it is a damning document. and the amount of detail, and excruciating lengths that is clear his officers went to investigating trump, that is later in this document, clears that this is no laughing matter, and that this is very, very serious. when you're talking about nuclear secrets, the location of our troops, intentions on how we are going to address adversaries and when, these are

things that are literally all national security threats. this cavalier nation about -- when you see these photos, the colors, the detail about where they are, over mar-a-lago, and if you consider that mar-a-lago is a social club, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people who have access when the documents were being stored. it shows the gravity of what donald trump is actually being accused of. as a former prosecutor, i can tell you, it's such a well written indictment, a speaking indictment. just like jack smith, i urge viewers out there to read this. >> charles, to that point, it is so well written, you don't actually need to be a lawyer to understand the facts and allegations. but the indictment makes it clear it was not just donald trump acting alone. he acted in a conspiracy with walt nada. i noted yesterday his name is actually walton.

mr. now to named as a coconspirator. we talked about this, the feds are trying very hard to get walled to cooperate before this indictment dropped. could we still see him flip on donald trump? considering he actually has his own count, count 38 in the indictment, against him alone. not to mention, the coconspirator accounts he has with donald trump. >> that's one of the things that's been neglected in this entire conversation so far. granted, we only got the indictment yesterday. but when you are a defended, and you look at that indictment, you see a federal indictment your names in black and white. and your codefendants name is donald trump the former president of the united states of america. a man who, at least by his own admission, claims to have hundreds of billion dollars at his disposal. you know that you don't have those types of resources. it's almost it's almost a given that you are going to feel like

are on an island. i wouldn't imagine that he and his counsel, whatever limited resources he may have, they're probably rethinking offers and conversations they had with the doj. now the indictments been issued, i don't know that it would be the same. and you, as a former prosecutor can testify, that the longer you wait at this process to cooperate, the less appealing but all for what you have available is. i don't know that will be available. i do think, should he decide to flip, and if he is someone to cooperate with prosecutors, he may have a way towards a lesser sentence. something that is slightly reduced. but i have to say, looking at the indictment, reading, it reading the level of detail that defense had around him and his actions as a coconspirator, i would be advising him as a client, you should really think about cooperation. >> charles, it's not just, you know, a prosecutor wanted to offer. the federal guidelines actually gives an incentive for

defendants to actually own up, plead guilty, and be able to take accountability straight out of the gate. it reduces the potential exposure. there's been a lot of chatter about you has district court judge a lead cannon. trump appointee, we remember her well from her failed attempt to -- in this classified documents case last year. the circuit smacked her down. she initially has been assigned in this case. we keep on using this word initially charles, because there's the possibility she doesn't say on this case. if she doesn't recruits herself on her own do you expect the doj to promptly file a motion to remove her from this case? >> i do expect the doj to file the motion, i don't necessarily know it would be successful. given the nature in which this case has come to light, how she was chosen, she was used by the electronic wheel. for viewers who don't know, basically a randomized system that more or less assigns cases

to judges in a particular jurisdiction. jack smith knew there was a possibility that he could get judge cannon. in this case. , he lucked out, since this was the judge who granted a special master early on, as you already talked about it. now we're overall encourage -- i do think this will remain on the case most likely. if she does i think her earlier rulings and reversals will show as a check, to let her know specifically look, elections -- everything she does in this case will be extra scrutinized, because she is a trump appointee. which would not automatically disqualify her. it will be interesting to see how her decisions, the trump legal strategy, and of course things like the rocket document in florida, which are intended to move federal cases along more aggressively than other jurisdictions. they converge in terms of how donald trump moves through this case. >> all right, a charles, don't

go anywhere. charles is sticking around after a quick break, as we continue our coverage of donald trump's second indictment. and later in the show, former republican for -- daniel riggleman will join me to discuss threats and violence now that their cult leader has been indicted. you're watching the katie phang show. show my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen.

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me, also join the conversation finally to discuss the second historic indictment of donald trump's bradley moss. national security attorney. bradley missed at the beginning, i want to start with you now. trump was charged with 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information under the espionage act. i along with others, does jack smith have to prove this case. we know he's proving in front

of a jury, but is he able to share the secrets with america? >> not necessarily the public writ large, but the jury as to an extent. there is a procedure set forth in federal law called the classified information procedures act. it was designed to address these very types of cases. where there is classified information issue where the prosecutor has the burden of demonstrating that the documents constant national defense information. it affords the prosecution various procedures in the courtroom, providing summary, stipulations, instead of actual documents to allow the defense to obviously have access to relevant information. for purposes of due process. to allow the jury to see or understand the information so that the government can still meet its burden while still protecting the constitutional rights of the criminal defendant in this case that's

donald trump. there is a way to do this, it's not easy, that's why they're not using all documents they've chosen a select group, these 31 particular documents at issue. they're being very specific procedures logo to to make sure they can present their case without further jeopardizing national security. >> bradley, i want to stay with you for just a second. concerning the 31 counts, it takes the jury to find that trump is guilty for only even just one of these counts, in order for him to have to do jail time, right? >> most likely yes. now if it was literally of all these counts, if he just got a victory on one, there's always a possibility that in that casts, maybe he would get an extended period of probation or something along those lines. given the nature of this indictment, given the factual allegations, if the jury will convict on just one, they're likely convicted on multiple

counts in this case. they're likely going to be convicting him on one of the obstruction elements so if this goes through the trial, if it results in a conviction if there's not a pardon, or computation that gets in the way, that is more than likely that can face actual jail time from this case. >> charles, we were talking about a lean cannon prior to the break. trump, already going after jack smith, talking about his family. kendall lanny, when talking about the possibility of being some type of conditions imposed on donald trump that would prevent him from being able to speak out. what are the chances charles at a judge like aileen cannon is going to muzzle donald trump in terms of his way to spew violent rhetoric against the special counsel, the doj, the prosecution? >> katie, that is the first test for everyone wondering how

impartial this judge will be. i do think you may see conversation from the doj asking for limitations to be placed on donald trump in terms of donald trump so the integrity of his case isn't -- how he respond is gonna be a key indicator, in terms of how they will approach -- people will be watching this to see -- try to can curtail some of the public discourse around this from donald trump and then also of course, how judge panel can a response. it's something i'm watching because you do not want to run the risk of curtailing defendant's first amendment rights any differently than you would and another case. but you also have to be mindful and balancing that this is not any other defendant you're talking about someone who has an enormous platform, and reach is very far and wide. that could ultimately, weigh in

on the case, in a way that -- either against the doj, or ultimately in its favor. one way or the other. judge cannon's ruling, should this issue come up, which it likely will, will be very insightful. >> bradley, last question to you, we know at least two incidents are alleged in this indictment, about donald trump showing classified information to people who did not have the security clearances. but no charge with him for the crime of dissemination of and the defense information. is that because there just wasn't evidence of that that the doj had to be able to charge him with that particular offense? >> yes, i think that was a bit of a bridge too far, given factual allegations, as we see them right now in the indictment, i don't think they quite had enough of a case to make on that front. nor do they really need to. the factual details that we have about donald trump showing off the documents. the staffer, the political committee, showing it off to the ghost writers, assuming they had the document there, we

only have the audio. that is enough to lay the foundation for the fact that he knew there was these documents, he knew they are still classified, he ultimately did not return them when the national archives and justice department came calling. that is enough to make that court case. they don't need to do a separate insemination count. generally speaking, when the government is charged along those lines, it's been physically handing over documents to someone else, and leaking it. like chelsea manning, or edward snowden. it's not been what donald trump did here. it's not necessary. >> bradley moss and charles coleman junior, i appreciate both of you for getting us started this morning, and giving us your analysis. thank you so much. and we have a quick programming note, tonight at eight pm, ali velshi will lead special coverage of the indictment of donald trump and special counsel jack smith classified document case. i will be joining the conversation, along with my colleagues, -- , alicia menendez, and symone sanders-townsend.

watch special coverage of the indictment tonight, a pm eastern, only on msnbc. >> and don't go anywhere, as we continue with our special coverage of former president donald trump's latest indictment. including the chilling rhetoric of some of the magra faithful. carl -- joins me live after the break to discuss that. >> you're watching the katie phang show. phang show i bought the team! kevin...? i bought the team! i put it on my chase freedom unlimited card. and i'm gonna cashback on a few other things too. starting with the sound system... curry from deep. [autotune] that's caaaaaaaaash. i prefer the old intro! this is much better! i don't think so! steph, one more thing... the team owner gets five minutes a game. cash bros? wooooo, i like it! i'll break it to klay. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase, make more of what's yours. my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. how do you cashback? his a1c?

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investigation into january six. it's always good to have you on the show. many people know that you were an intelligence officer in the united states air force. but i wanted to get your reaction straight out of the gate to the extent of the classified information that trump illegally retained after his presidency. >> i think what's amazing, is that katie, good morning by the way, what's amazing to me is that he actually told somebody on tape. this is why, when you see reactions from people like andy breaks. even clay hagan's talking about military mission planning, the fact is, he said, look, look at the secret documents. look at this. right? it's not the exact quote, but is darn close. he had things on tape like that, you're showing me around war plans, or showing an off plan. or you're showing something from senior leadership that's actually classified. if i were on tape doing that, or anybody in my business, somebody who's had ts/sci, multiple tickets, and multiple special access programs. if i'm doing that, showing so many secret documents that are not cleared, and admitting that

he had not unclassified those documents when he was potus. again, that's a whole other question. i think you know, i would've been dragged from my home, thrown in the clank. you know, looking at the pictures, even that you're showing right now, i mean, he actually dumped secret documents in the dump. where are we at as a country right now, that we don't see the seriousness of this, and we have elected representatives that are gaslighting the american people for putting things that are that hyperbolic, outrageous and implying violence on social media. it is really amazing, there's no adults in the room right now when it comes to those individuals. >> and denver, it is not just people playing around. there is very serious stuff here. but claims you brought up a second ago in response to tuesday's arraignment, republican congress men clay aiken said this is permitted riveted from the oppressor. our potus has us, buckle up. know your bridges, rock steady, calm. what in the world denver is

hagan saying here? >> it's just, it's just military language. clay higgins was a national guardsmen. he was a military policeman i believe. he was law enforcement, but he's cause playing mission planning. i was an actual professional mission planner for years. all the way from operational ally forced to 9/11. look at something like this, it's actually a map of 1 to 50,000 -- at mission planning at -- it's also a call to arms, or call to be prepared for contact with enemies. either defensive or offensive. so you have, you know, really this individual out there. and i know clay, i've served with him back in 2019, to 2021. this is so irresponsible. it also, it's also almost a cause play ridiculousness that actually could spark violence to people that maybe are too ignorant to understand, or absolutely understand what clay higgins is putting out there. i think at this point, he probably needs to retract that, or delete it, and to apologize for such ridiculous language.

it makes real military individuals almost cringe, it's so cringeworthy, that i do believe that we have to have a point in this country, where the saying rises up against this hyperbolic bowl [bleep]. i think for me, it's embarrassing to see somebody, especially an elected representative, it's just embarrassing. >> denver, it's now transcended to being hyperbole. we've seen an actual incident of political violence on january six. mike pence for example, he's been through fire with donald trump. it is been two years, plus since the january six insurrection at the capitol. you had majestic stream is threatening to hang him there. at this point though, with somebody like donald trump winning the nomination for the gop at the primary be a clear endorsement of political violence? >> i'm gonna tell you katie, that might be one of the best questions i've been asked. i think it is an endorsement of

political violence. we need to look at 2024. we already have the plan, right? we already know the tactics, techniques, and procedures in the military. if people want to talk real military, the tpp of how they did on january six. we have to look to the future. that's why that question is so profound, we still have the 2024 election coming up. what happens in the spring of 2024, when things become very aggressive in campaigning? i do believe donald trump will be the nominee for the gop. i think a lot of people do believe that. and if it is sort of a trump biden rematch, what's gonna happen when this type of hyperbolic language, or outrageous language actually translates to violence? there is a weaponization, and monetization of this type of language that we saw on january six. i think now with donald trump out there continually saying he's a political prisoner. he's being attacked by the deep state, it's a witch hunt, it's a globalist plot to take him down. all the conspiracy wackos are going to be dragged from their basements to get involved in a lot of those wackos sadly are in the united states congress. >> denver, before i let you go

somebody like ron desantis announcing that if he's elected potus, he would consider pardons for those involved in january six, including even donald trump. now you got donald trump looking at a federal indictment for a number of felonies. trump himself has also talked about pardons. where is the rule of law? the gop used to be the party of law in order, and now we have former presidents being indicted federally, and at the state level. and candidates for the oval office saying, i'll pardon people that participated in physical acts of violence in order to commit insurrection. what is happening here? >> what's happening is they're looking at polling four where donald trump, is it where they're at when they parent those stops. i know how this works, i was in congress katie. it's very difficult for me to look at some of these people seriously. but it's amazing that a military lawyer, ron desantis, right, somehow forgot to read, look at sourcing, actually use his own investigative training

to see what's right in front of his eyes. the reason is is because there is no worry about the american citizen. it's all about if he can win. it's the same with a lot of these other candidates. they don't care about america, they don't care about truth. they only care if they get their nomination, or if they get their fundraising numbers up, or if they're preparing for a future run. that is it. i'm story to tell a lot of american people, that's politics. you're looking at a two party system, one party is gonna hold my beer moment, that party's gonna follow whoever they can't on any line in order to actually make sure that the ballot box shows them in favor. that's it katie, that sadly what's going on here. and again, it's just on serious people that are running for serious positions. at some point, we have to stand up, and i think teams sanity really needs to get into the game right now. >> selling their soul to the devil? one gop politician out of time. former congressman devil riggleman, thanks for joining us this morning, i appreciate it. >> thank you katie. >> still to come on the katie phang show.

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and before his arraignment here in miami on tuesday. he will be on the campaign trail today in north carolina in georgia. former vice president mike pence will also be on the road in north carolina. florida governor ron desantis again, not in florida, will be in oklahoma. pence has tried to walk a fine line, criticizing the doj while declaring at the same time that no one is above the law. but ron desantis has leaned into defending trump. tweeting quote, the weaponization of federal law enforcement represents a mortal threat to a free society. joining me now for our saturday power political panel, -- msnbc political analyst carlos -- and -- . gentlemen, we now have a federal indictment. carlos, i've to start with you. desantis saying this is a mortal threat, i mean, it's a party of law in order last i checked. we talked a denver riggleman just last segment. what the heck is going on? it is a doj, a grand jury. there is a process here.

>> so this is the textbook case of the republican trump trap, where a candidate like ron desantis performs for a republican primary audience, but then, puts himself at risk. let's say he makes it through, let's say donald trump goes to jail, and ron desantis becomes a republican nominee. then he has to face general election voters, and explain why he thought it was okay with donald trump did, and that it's the justice department, and law enforcement that is actually wrong here. that is what happened to candidates in the midterm elections in 2022. that is why they lost. because they were to align to donald trump. they were perceived as being too radical. so desantis is trying to signal to trump, i'm okay, i'm one of you. but that can end up costing him if he actually makes it. >> and to carlos's point, is there really a risk of true manga dying hearts actually saying, no, this is not a politicization of an administrative arm like the doj?

>> katie, it's difficult. i know we're trying to look at this from a political impact, political lens. but as an american, who lives in this constitution, this democracy, this country, it's very difficult to try and politically judge what is happening here. we are now 36 hours removed from the second federal indictment. the first federal indictment, the second indictment of a former president. we've now seen what's in there. it is worse than we could've imagined. nothing is surprising. the fact of the matter is not a single trump republican, not a single one has come out and said, enough is enough, it is time to break ties. we have to call this out. what that suggests to me, is that this is how fascism happens in the united states. do we doubt for one second that if instead of just these charges, if donald trump, to paraphrase his own words, if he had shot an fbi agent on south ocean boulevard who came to retrieve those documents, would there be any question that trump republicans today would be citing to stand your ground

law, and accusing the administration of physical intimidation, justifying that conduct? of course not. what we have now katie, is that this is a party that is declaring cleanly and clearly before the eyes of the world, we don't believe in the rule of law. we believe in power. this is a threat to donald trump's power, and therefore our power. we are gonna close ranks behind him. it's a very dangerous moment for this country. >> carlos i want to harp on the actual fear of physical violence. because we have seen it happen on january six. washington post reporter all -- tweeted kari lake speaking in georgia tonight, this was yesterday, says to get trump near garland, or to get to trump, excuse me, merrick garland will have to go through 75 million americans, and most of us are card-carrying members of the nra. that's not a threat, it's a public service announcement. harry lake responded to isaac, i meant what i said. i mean, there's hyperbole, there's puffery, there is political banter, i don't know

which one a column. but there is legitimate fear carlos of people could actually get here hurt because of these calls for violence. by the way, it's not just trump doing it. there's actual politicians calling for violence. >> that's right katie, by the way, the city is going to host, this theater here on tuesday, miami, trump will be coming to the city. and i can tell you, local law enforcement is concerned that there could be violence, in that they're taking special preparation, special steps to make sure that they are prepared to deal with any potential violence. these words matter these people don't understand that they have followers. and we have seen how those people have been misled in the past. january six, right, hundreds of people, thousands took, you know, they turn to violence as a solution in utter moxie. in a democracy that's supposed to be the example to the world. i think that especially strikes home here in miami, where so

many people, so many of our families came from countries where democracy was lost, institutions were broken. so it's a real concern. >> i disagree with the congresswoman -- i think they know exactly what they're doing. >> some of them do, some of them do. >> here's the truth. if we want to be crystal clear here, not whole punches, they want this political violence. this political violence is how they overturn the rule of law. it's how they create it environment that allows them to keep what they most desperately want. that is power. this is not about the rule of law, it's not about politics, this is about barnacle, unvarnished power katie. they understand the stakes, which is why they're amping up the rhetoric, and engaging in tripling down on lies, to suggest that joe biden is doing this. not a grand jury of south florida, and the ones who said yes to this, not the justice department acting -- even though the attorney general, special counsel brought this case, simply reflecting the very words under

donald trump's mouth, that he would defy this law,. that he would break this law, and what are you gonna do about it? they want this violence. they know this is what they need. that is what they're doubling down on. >> i want you guys to stay here, because we're coming back. they'll stick around, continuing our coverage of the indictment of the former president, donald trump. keep it right here, you're watching msnbc. watching msnbc by providing blankets for comfort and warmth and encouraging messages of hope to help support nearly three hundred thousand patients facing cancer nationwide. we call it “the subaru love promise.” and we're proud to be the largest automotive donor to the leukemia and lymphoma society. subaru. more than a car company.

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carlos, before we went to the break, fernand was talking about, there is a grand jury that convene secretly as it were. it's made up of citizens of miami. there's been a lot of concern about the venue of this case that's being brought to miami, which is not necessarily, quote unquote, favorable to the fate of the doj. maybe more favorable to republicans, or someone like donald trump. but this grand jury found 37 counts against donald trump.

so do you share any concerns that the doj might have about bringing a trial here in this particular city? >> i actually think that they are so confident in their case, that they were happy to do it at this venue. i think, politically, not that the doj takes these things into account. but i think it's kind of appropriate that it's in florida. in trump's home state. in a state where he won, right? we know trump and his people are going to try and delegitimized this whole process. i think this actually gives, it brings more credence to the case. and you know, going back to this conversation about republicans, and the way they express themselves about everything that happened kdlt this. what is also on display here is the fundamental dishonesty that has taken root in the republican party. all these presidential candidates, that are criticizing the doj, or lamenting that this is happened, they're actually quietly celebrating. >> of course they are.

>> they want to win. >> desantis busted out the champagne last night, you know they are. >> they're thrilled to see donald trump behind bars, but this is a characteristic of the trump era, and the republican party. republicans say one thing privately, and something else publicly. and timmy, that's truly regrettable. because most of these candidates, if not all, they know donald trump is extremely toxic. they know he is bad for the country, yet they publicly defend him when they know, deep down inside, and they express this privately the truth about him. >> carlo sounds like he's describing germany in the 1930s. >> i was just about to say. >> this is how fascism happens, that's disqualifying behavior. i don't see it as a criticism. in fact, he's one of the few republicans who had the moral courage, and the love of country to put country over party. he paid for with his feet unfortunately. that is where we are katie. we cannot sugarcoat this, or

just let politics explain what's going on here. this is bigger than politics. this is the greatest threat to the country, and to the long term prospects of the country since the civil war. and if we don't understand and acknowledge what's happening, the band of hypocrites and charlatans in this cult of personality that is willing to use violence, and extreme means to overturn any democratic -- rule of law to gain power, then we're not calling it for what it is. >> that's true right, this is the normalization of violence, and violent rhetoric, to be able to advance a political theory. we've seen, in reality, not in theory, but in real practice, on january six, the people that are motivated to get change are willing to take up arms. they were armed. i'm so tired of the bs that they were unarmed when they went to the capitol on january six. they took up arms to be able to make sure that president joe biden did not become the president of the united states at the time.

i just really quickly want to talk about something that you said. we have a very unique perspective, because we're here, we live here in miami. this is where we raise our families. this is a city that we're in. we talk about using this phrase, banana republic. i don't know if people really understand why we talk about, it what it means. but to carlos's point to, it has some's sort of -- four families that are trying to deal with what's happening. this type of indictment of the former president of the united states. >> if the country wasn't is, and hopefully for the rest of our lives and our children's lives, a beacon of freedom, the beacon of the rule of law around the world. if the united states of america cannot engage in abide by and defend, protect the rule of law at all cost, it is not safe anywhere in the world. that's why i think especially, children of exiles like carlos carballo, myself, you and your parents who came to this country for all opportunities are provided. that's why we're so paralyzed with concern and dread about what we're seeing from this absurd republican party, and

servitude to donald trump. >> carlos, last word, you have less than a minute. >> when i was a kid my dad would always say -- the americans, they do politics better than we do talking about his country in latin america generally. he said they can figure it out, they know how to disagree, and then get along. they're not enemies, they respect each other, they respect institutions. he would tell me to learn from that. that's the way it should be. well, the country that he used to describe is not today. and that's very sad for me. and it needs to change. in needs to go back to being the country that my dad came to, seeking that freedom, that stability, that piece, the respect, the decency that is so lacking in our politics today. >> i wanted for makeup. i have an eight-year-old, we were talking during the break how our children are growing up thinking this is what american politics, and american government is supposed to be. former congressman carlos cobiella, my friend, thank you

for being here. and a quick programming note. tonight, at the pm, ali velshi will lead special coverage of the indictment of donald trump, and special counsel jack smith classified documents case. i'll be joining the conversation, along with my colleagues, -- , alicia menendez, and simone townsend. we'll watch special coverage tonight at eight pm eastern only on msnbc. coming up, we have a whole new hour of the katie phang show. as we continue with our breaking news coverage of the second indictment of donald trump. michael cohen, the outspoken former personal attorney for donald trump, who was at the center of the first indictment, will be joining us to talk about trump's latest indictment. i know, that's a lot of indictments. you don't want to miss an interview, stay with us. with us. it's easy to get lost in investment research. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals

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the katie phang show, we're continuing our coverage of the historic federal indictments of former president donald trump for his alleged wrongful retention of classified documents. the 38 count indictment was unsealed yesterday, and charges donald trump with 30 when it counts of willful retention national defense information under the espionage act. the charges also include making false statements, the conspiracy