trump and his personal valet, walt nauta, have been indicted in the case. trump alone faces 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information, and one count of false statements. both men are charged with one count each of conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a document, corruptly concealing a document, concealing a document in a federal investigation, and a scheme to conceal. nauta has a separate charge for making false statements. the government alleges in its indictment that trump was not nearly a passive bystander that got caught up in this ordeal. he was an active participant who was personally involved in the process of packing up documents as he was set to leave the white house and quote, caused scores of boxes, many of which contain classified documents, to be transported to the mar-a-lago club in palm beach, florida. end quote. those documents included quote, information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states in foreign countries, the united

states nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to plan military attacks, to military attack, and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack, end quote. according to the indictment, this is what donald trump did with those state secrets. for the first few months, some boxes to on the stage of an event space known as the white and gold ballroom before they were moved to the business center. then, some boxes were stored in a bathroom, stacked high above the marble floors, surrounding the toilet and blocking access to the bum, shower, not blocking access to the toilet. they were finally moved to a storage room in 2021, piled high along the walls of the room, but this case isn't just about mishandling the highly sensitive documents. the government also alleges the former presidents quote, endeavored to obstruct the fbi and grand darien vista geishas end quote. for a period of time, trump repeatedly ignored the fbi's order to return all the

documents and per the indictment, even suggested to one of his lawyers they lie to the fbi and the grand jury and tell them that he did not have some documents that have been subpoenaed. quote, on may 11th, the grand jury issued a subpoena. the subpoena to the office of donald j trump, requiring the production of all documents of classification markings in the possession, custody, or control of trump or the office of donald j trump. two attorneys representing trump, trump attorney one anti trump attorney to, informed trump of the may 11th subpoena, and authorize trump attorney want to accept service. on may 22nd, 2022, he nauta entered the storage room at 3:47 pm and left approximately 34 minutes later, carrying one of trump's boxes. on may 23rd, 2022, trump met with trump attorney one anti trump attorney to at the mar-a-lago club to discuss the response to the may 11th subpoena. trump attorney one and two told

trump they needed to search for documents that would be responsive to the subpoena and provide a certification that there had been compliance with the subpoena. trump in sum and substance, been following statements, among others, as memorialized by trump attorney won. a, i don't want anyone looking. i don't want anybody looking through my boxes. i really don't. i don't want you looking through my boxes. well, what happens if you just don't respond at all, or don't play ball with them? see, wouldn't be better we just told them we didn't have anything here? the, we'll look. isn't it better if there are no documents? and quote. i'm joined now by charlie savage, the pulitzer prize-winning washington correspondent for the new york times and author of power wars the relentless rise of presidential authority and secrecy, also with us as mark zain, that managing partner of mark-esque zane pc, professor at johns hopkins university, the executive director and founder of the james madison project. good morning to both of you.

thank you for being with us. mark, let me start with you. you take the view that many smart americans take, that's this government classifies a lot of stuff maybe it shouldn't and thousands across the finalist of that maybe it should. there is gray area here. i talked to former cia director brennan, who agreed there is gray area here. it doesn't fall upon donald trump to make those decisions himself. it's not possible for a former president to declassify information, and it's not possible for a current president, who has the right to declassify information, to do it with his mind. so, there's a lot here donald trump knew to be true and illegal that he allegedly borrowed. >> absolutely. look, is there a mental power to declassifying? arguably, short, yes. but that's not how the system works. it does not work in the way that he is going to tell us or anyone months or years, even days later that's what he did. there would be a process that would go into play.

and this could, and no doubt will, be part of his defense. if he can produce individuals who say yeah, i heard him say declassified that information. we only know if one individual such far, kash patel, a parent, like he was brought before the grand jury. we don't know what his testimony was. we know he hasn't said anything about it since then. i will say, and this is going to be a problem for donald trump, we're going to talk a lot about what the classified information procedures accuracy, for cifa . that's what governs the use of classified information in criminal cases. all of this is done pretrial. so this is not before the jury. this is going to be before whoever the district judge's. and under the espionage act which deals with national defense information, not classified information, let's just say it's the same thing for purposes of this, one cannot challenge the classification nature of the

document. so he's not going to even be able to say, it's over classified. even if he tries to say, the government's response would be, well, it's still national defense information. so, it's going to be a problem for the president. overclassification, big, big problem, big problem with espionage act cases, and i guess he could have fixed it when he wasn't office like he raised the penalty from 5 to 10 years, but he never did. >> charlie was to stop because mark just talk about the judge. charlie you in your latest piece for the new york times talk about the judge. judge cannon, the trump appointed judge, by the way, who initially appointed the special master in this case after the fbi search mar-a-lago last summer. you called her assignment to this case a potential setback in the prosecution. you wrote, the chief clerk of the court for the southern district of florida has said new cases there are randomly delegated to its judges, even if they are related to private, the previous ones. it was not immediately clear whether mr. trump looked out or

if an exception was made. either white legal specialists that judge cannon's return was significant. what do you mean by that? >> well, judge cannon handled the lawsuit that trump filed last year after the fbi search of mar-a-lago, in which she challenged the fbi's ability to hold on to and use the documents they had seized in that search. and she issued a series of rulings that were very favorable to trump, and surprised legal experts across the ideological spectrum. even bill barr was saying, what is this? this is not correct as a matter of law. she was initially shut down by an appeals court panel, or two of the three judges were fellow trump appointees. this is not liberals who didn't like rulings because they were pro trump. this is people across the board saying, she was not ruling in a

straightforward manner. she was favoring trump. and eventually. she got shut down and the supreme court did not overturn the appeals person. so, hurt returned to this case, now that it's a case, now there's an indictment, if she continues her pattern from last year, it could be a significant blow to prosecutors in the coming fights over things like what -- was just talking about. whether they can use substituted evidence to avoid displaying classified information that's important. or whether they would have to display that classified information, in which case the government might want to drop some of it. and many other things to come. she could delay the trial. she could entertain accusations by trump that there was conspiratorial misconduct and turn this into a trial with the government. there's all kinds of ways in which a judge who wants to, it seems whether the reputational harm she has sustained brought upon herself last year might

make her move towards use the second opportunity in the spotlight to, you know, repair some of that damaged by acting in a more truthful manner. >> mark -- >> that assignment was not a good thing. >> what do you make of that, mark? you can't use your judge, and you might not like the fact judge has been appointed by a different president, the one you don't like. ironic that this judge was appointed by donald trump himself. what do you make of the selection of the judge? >> as charlie said, this is how it works in all the federal systems, with respect to assignments. random or if it's determined to be related. it's unclear right now whether judge cannon will retain the case passed the initial phase of it. she is not necessarily going to be the trial judge. but she might be. i will say, the southern district of florida and the 11th circuit, which oversees,

it does not have a lot of experience in dealing with either espionage act cases or classified information cases. most of these cases preferably by the government, are brought either in d.c. or the eastern district of virginia, where the cia and the pentagon are obviously located. so, there will actually be more room for a trump defense team to try and exploit and explore the parameters of the law because if it were up in my area, most of the arguments could easily be addressed by a judge, because there is precedent that says no, you can't do it, or yes, you can. so, that will give some wiggle room to whoever the judges to be a little innovative if they want. at the same time, there is still enough out there, as they look to be other jurisdictions that have experience, to understand what works, what is allowed, what doesn't. again, we're going to know most of this in the pre trial proceedings in the coming months or years plus. >> thanks very much, as always.

charlie, great reporting from you. charlie savage is a washington correspondent at the u.s. times. he's the author of power wars, the relentless rise of presidential authority and secrecy. mark zain is the executive director and founder of the james madison project. we appreciate your time. joining me now is laurence tribe, professor emeritus at the harvard law school in coauthor of the book, to end a presidency the power of impeachment. larry, good to see you again, it's been a long time. it takes big offense for us to get together and have these conversations. in a piece you wrote with dennis after for the bulwark this week, he wrote quote, in charges resulting from the special counsel's investigation, we finally see a constitutional system asserting itself full force over a defiant scoff law. history tells us that strong institutions prevail over strong personalities in such battles. at least one institutional values are backed by the beliefs and actions of dedicated citizens, and quote.

large optimism, or is that a fair system assessment of how this will go? >> it's simply a description. there's no activism there, so i certainly have been an activist in my life. but i think i've listened to your coverage for the last hour or so and i think that one thing that's been great, but the one thing that's missing is urging people to actually read this indictment. >> yes. >> the way you described it, somebody might think oh, it's a bunch of assertions by doj. on the contrary, first of, all it's not doj. it's the special counsel who is independent of supervision by garland and the indictment was handed down by ordinary citizens in miami. it's a grand jury. the more important point is all the evidence in here comes right from donald trump's mouth. recordings, messages, transcriptions, and the part

that doesn't come straight from donald trump comes mostly from his lawyer, mr. corcoran. and usually, the communications between lawyer and clients, as you know, are highly privileged, but in this case, judge powell determined there was a rare exception for the attorney client privilege, and that ruling has already been upheld. it's an exception of occurs when the evidence shows the client is using a lawyer as a tool to commit crime. so, we've got a very unusual indictment. you just read it, and it blows your mind away. it's a very easy read, and it's very compelling. , what i'm interested in seeing is whether people who like trump, who thinks he's a great guy, after reading this and seeing how careless he how deliberately deceptive he was, with the nations crown

jewels, the secrets about how we went response through armed attack, maps of very sensitive locations, you read this and you see the direct evidence trump showing it to somebody and saying, i'm not supposed to show the, you it secret, but isn't it amazing? just look at it, but don't get too close. this stuff was strewn all over mar-a-lago in your toilets, onstage and mar-a-lago, as leah diamond explains, it's a place where thousands of people, including people from countries that aren't exactly our best friends, just traipse through. so this indictment shows it's not just a matter of move in boxes. it shows somebody who believed that he was above the law. for many who says, now, i know i'm not supposed to show you this, but who cares? somebody who says, the subpoena calls for this evidence, but let's just say we don't have it.

all of this is damning proof. of course, he's presumed innocent, but unless judge cannon manages to abuse her power, and i hope she doesn't, i hope she, too, it's interested in preserving the law in the country, unless she abuses her power, this is a very easy conviction again. >> i want to talk about judge cannon on the other side. i'm glad you brought up the whole idea of people should read this. it's 49 pages. you know, it's easy. it's an easy read. it's a uniquely compelling raid. and it would solve a lot of problems. everybody, we're gonna talk about this for weeks, and weeks, and months. read this and will be better informed. stay with me, lawrence, we'll talk on the other side about what you brought up about judge cannon. lawrence tribe, on the other side. velshi continues in a minute. a minute tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time.

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leader scholar, lawrence tribe, professor emeritus at larboard law school. just before the break, we were talking about the judge, aileen cannon. on twitter, you suggested the appointment of aileen cannon, to this case, is a genuine cause for concern. tell me what worries you about her and how it can affect how things play out? >> first thing that concerns me is the very fact that she was appointed. some people believe she was pinpointed randomly by a spin the wheel. that may be true. that's the usual way, and if that happened in this case, the denominator of judges from whom she was appointed wasn't all that large. but, i've also reliably heard that it isn't always random, but the chief judge of b relevant federal district courts may have a hand in it. in this case if he did, it's a

little puzzling how she was chosen. earlier case was not really a criminal case. it was a civil suit brought by donald trump trump for the appointment of a special master, and the very conservative 11th circuit unanimously concluded she has no jurisdiction at all. she was off the reservation. and the former president didn't even appeal that. so, it wasn't a related case. her earlier experience, if anything, doesn't count in favor of her handling this. maybe she is only handling the arraignment on tuesday afternoon, but if she is appointed, then, i do worry that the degree to which she leaned over backwards in the direction of ruling for trump, in ways even a conservative court slapped her down for and criticized her for, suggests that her loyalty may be somewhat more towards the guy who made her a federal judge,

the one who appointed her, than to the constitution. i hope not. i hope if she does what i recommended, oh, a rain and read this airy concise and powerful and easy to read indictment, and she will, she will surely read it, that even she will have a jaw-dropping experience, thinking, is that the guy who appointed me? is this the guy on whose behalf i went out on a limb? hopefully that will be her reaction, and she will go back to a normal judicial role. and any normal judge within indictment the strong, with evidence that comes straight from the defendants mouth or from the mouths of his lawyers after a definitive adjudication, the attorney client privilege didn't buy, any judge would really decide it's important one way or the other that will be a verdict in this case before the next election. so, the people of the united states know whether it is someone who is guilty of espionage, conspiracy to

obstruct justice, and lying to the government with dangerous secrets of our national security. whether that's the kind of person they want as president. so, if that's the case, and i'm hoping it is, she won't slow it down. she won't make all kinds of two be us rulings about the administration of cifa, the law that governs the introduction of material of a very sensitive kind, but she will call it straight. and if she does, it's very hard to see what defense donald trump can present. he was basically bragging about his mishandling of national defense materials throughout this indictment. you read it and your jaw drops and you get scared for the country. so, i'm hoping that despite the fact that aileen cannon would not have been my first choice as judge, it won't matter who the judge is. justice will be done. >> there is a lot to unpack

there, including whether she does actually get appointed, and whether she slowed walks this thing, and whether if she doesn't this gets heard before the next election, which i'm sure a lot of people would feel, at least, whatever the outcome of the case, would be a little bit more like justice. lawrence, good to see you as always. thank you, sir. professor laurence tribe is a professor emeritus at harvard law school. we're going to have more on the indictment of donald trump but i want to give you a piece of breaking news we've just had. moments ago, during a news conference in kyiv with the canadian prime minister, justin trudeau, the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, confirmed his country's long anticipated counteroffensive against russia is officially underway. he offered very few details. he said quote, counteroffensive and defensive actions are taking place in ukraine. i bought speak about which stage or face they are in. so, zelenskyy also said his top commanders are feeling rather positively, as their troops engage in what ukraine's general staff is calling, heavy

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chase for business. make more of what's yours. >> this week, the country witness the second time enough donald trump just this year but don't put a period on that sentence just yet, because there could be even more indictments and charges against the former twice impeached ex president. the stunning 38 count indictment which also names as a, walt nauta, was unsealed friday and accuses trump of willfully -- and prevents their return to the united states government. trump is presented any wrongdoing. special counsel, jack smith, brought the indictment against trump and nauta, is leading a probe into trump's attempt to turn the 2020 election results and his role in the january 6th insurrection. running parallel season federal investigations are a number of

other criminal and civil probes, also targeting trump. in april, trump or the dubious honor of becoming the first u.s. president to face criminal charges, when a new york grand jury indicted him for allegedly falsifying business records in connection with a hush money payment paid to an adult film star before the 2016 presidential election. over in georgia, fulton county district attorney fani willis is investigating whether trump acted illegally to try to overturn his election defeat in that state in 2020, potential charges are expected to drop by september. in that case. trump in the family business faced a civil suit in new york over allegations the trump organization falsified financial statements in order to obtain loans. a trial in that case is scheduled for october. let's not forget, just last month, he was found liable in a civil courts of sexually abusing and defaming the writer, e. jean carroll. carol is now seeking even more damages against trump for disparaging comments he made about her during a cnn town hall after he was found liable.

in that case trump's litigation rosaries a few questions, including he is notorious for evading the consequences of his personal and political scandals. this continues to elude criminal accountability. the cells of a question about what impact these suits are going to have on his political and his business endeavors. joining us to this caucus all of these legal entanglements is our friend of the show, melissa murray. a law professor and muggier at msnbc legal analyst. he's also the co-host of the strict scrutiny podcast. melissa, great to see you. thank you for being with. us >> thanks, ali. >> there are a lot of questions here. the first of which is donald trump nothing he's been charged with at the moment, precludes him from running for president or being elected for president, as president, it's quite possible that even the case that charges so far, manhattan and this, one may not conclude before the presidential election. >> that's exactly right. i think earlier, your guess on

lawrence tribe alluded to what some of the fears might be. if that trial current trial that we're expecting on this 38 count indictment if that is delayed to the point that it follows the 2024 election and donald trump is elected in the election, we'll have this really uncharted moment where we have to figure out what to do about a sitting president, standing trial on major national security charges. again, if donald trump is the president and he is the person overseeing that department of justice or it's in that position to -- you could make all of that go away. so again, all of these charges and all of these different legal exposures have real consequences for the election, and will be influenced by the fate of the election. >> what's your sense of what i've just talked to professor private, that with respect to the judge, i think can? >> well, we know judge cannon by reputation, obviously, from her work initially on the documents case.

she issued a ruling and the ruling raised eyebrows i think, among many legal scholars and pundits around the country, because it seems so divorced from the substance of the law and indeed, the 11th circuit, which is a relatively conservative circuit, issued what i think could be generously described as a pretty stunning review rebuke of judge cannon's reasoning in that case. on the fact that she has been the person to get this case, i think, raises some eyebrows. it could be random, as professor tribe said. perhaps it may have been influenced by the work of a chief judge of that court. we don't. no but he really is in that captured position in her rulings on various evidentiary motions, and just basic trial management motions. she is in the -- to manage the pace of this trial and she could slow things down. she could rule in particular ways that limit the kinds of evidence the prosecution can put before a jury. she can completely changed the tenor of this jury trial. >> jack smith had actually said

he wants to, he intends to give donald trump a speedy trial. except jack smith doesn't run the trial. i suppose the fact he intends for it to be speedy, means that his part of things might move quickly. but the tenor and pace of the trial depends more on the judge than it does on jack smith, right? >> to be clear, the idea of a speedy trial comes from the constitution, which guarantees criminal defendants the right to a speedy trial. so, jack smith has prosecuted him. he has invited him. he intends for this prosecution of the trial to be speedy. but speedy is a term of art here. there's a lot of evidence here. this is a lot of opportunities for the defense too make challenges to the introduction of certain kinds of evidence, the introduction of certain kinds of witnesses, there's a lot of room here for the judge, who oversees the entire trial and determines what you've seen by the jury, weiss spurred by the jury, for the judge to have a lot of influence. here, so she sets the pace. she is the metronome by which this trial is going to move. >> i want to put up the picture

again of all the various legal woes donald trump faces. the ones he's already been adjudicated for, even the e. jean carroll one, there's another one coming up. we don't know what's happening yet in georgia. jack smith has other parts of his investigation, including january 6th and the insurrection and election interference. what happens if donald trump gets reelected? because the likelihood is if there are any more indictments, everything is going to be moving, generally speaking, simultaneously, and those of us who are not lawyers think it's a slow-ish pace. donald trump then maybe becomes president. what happens in these cases, because there is that office of legal counsel memo that says, you don't prosecute a precedent. what if it's already underway? >> so, again that we really are in uncharted and unconscious and -- constitutional waters. i will say in regard to the federal charges, those are the ones i think we need to worry the most about. because donald trump, if he is president, is in a position to

identify and nominate the new attorney general, and the new attorney general could be in a position to kill these prosecutions and kill police investigations at the federal level. with regard to the state level, investigations of alvin bragg's investigation, or the civil investigation, those are not necessarily governed by the president or the department of justice, but as you say, the memo suggested you cannot prosecute or criminally try a sitting president, which would move the bragg prosecution at the table. it would not necessarily move the civil investigations either e. jean carroll or whatever tish james going on off the table entirely, and the supreme court president suggests that you can't allow a sitting president to be sued civilly on certain kinds of cases. as long as the court and the judges in a position to manage and minimize the imposition on the presidents time and the work of the executive office. >> does a former president running for office and his time requirements have a role in a

case like this? can donald trump say i can't be here on that court date, i've got a rally in some place? >> certainly. we've already seen that, to some degree, with judge marchand in the manhattan district attorney's case. he was very clear when he was setting the pretrial schedule, but he was going to do everything he could to not only minimize the imposition to donald trump, he's going to be allowed to campaign. he just can't talk on the campaign trail about what's evidence has been introduced here. he knows about, as a criminal defendant. so, we're already seeing in some of these cases, efforts to accommodate the fact that we are in the unprecedented situation of having a presidential candidate facing unprecedented legal exposure. >> alyssa, good to see you as always. we, of course, had looked to you to talk to the supreme courses that came down this. week i'm hoping we will get back to that, because they are really, really crucial, especially as it relates to voting rights. we appreciate your time. melissa murray is a law professor and why you and msnbc legal analyst. back in 2016, donald trump

proclaimed at a campaign stop quote, i can stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot someone, and i wouldn't lose any voters. thus that logic still hold, now that he's been accused of putting america's national security at risk? i'll discuss it with former republican congressman, charlie that, and joe walsh. later tonight, we'll be here to continue our special coverage of the indictment of donald trump, tried by colleagues katie phang, evan -- jonathan capehart, alicia menendez, simone sanders townsend, and me starting at eight pm eastern, tonight.

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lashed out against the special counsel, jack smith, with a series of combative talking points. in light of his recent endemic indictment this week. he's also calling on his fellow republicans to back him up and that call is largely being heated. house speaker kevin mccarthy called yesterday a dark day for the united states of america, saying this indictment pose a grave injustice. congressman andy biggs took it one step further, alleging quote, we now have reached a wart phase. i, for an eye. that sentiment is carried over to the 2024 campaign trail as well, or many of the candidates competing against donald trump for the nomination are rallying to his defense. florida governor ron desantis tweeted quote the weaponization of federal law enforcement represents a mortal threat to a free society! we have, for years, witnessed an uneven application of the

law, depending upon political affiliation. why so zealous in pursuing trump, get so passive about hillary? or hunter? senator tim scott echoed the sentiments on fox news quote, every person is presumed innocent, not guilty, and what we've seen over the last several years is the weaponization of the department of justice against the former president. but now all of trump's competitors are supporting him. the former arkansas governor, asa hutchison, released a statement saying quote, our country finds itself in a position that weakens our democracy. how will trump's actions from his willful disregard for the constitution to his disrespect for the rule of law should not define our nation or the republican party. bianco and criminal proceedings will be a major distraction. this reference the need for donald trump to respect the office and to end his campaign, and quote. former new jersey governor, chris christie, who previously read trump's white house transition team, had this to say. >> what we want from someone

who wants to be president of the united states! to take national security documents involving warfare and our nuclear program, to keep them in their home, when they're not allowed to do so, exposing them to a potentially being seen by a number of people, and then actually showing them to people? showing off? this is irresponsible conduct. >> joining me now, to republicans who previously served in the house of representatives. joe walsh, represented the eighth district of illinois. he ran against donald trump in the 2020 republican presidential primaries. charlie dent represented pennsylvania's 15th district, and now the executive director and vice president of the aspen institute congressional program. good to see you, thank you for joining us this morning. charlie, let's evaluate what the responses have been. on the campaign trail the people running against donald trump, has actually been a bit more nuanced than i would've expected. but for ron desantis, who is

not so much of a nuanced guy. but in congress, it is very hard to find republican members of congress who would agree with the idea that one shouldn't be disseminating improperly classified information. they've gone right to this weaponization, some, like marjorie taylor greene and andy biggs, have gone to this war metaphor, i-4 and i stuff. very few have come out and said, i think maybe what donald trump is alleged to have done might be wrong. >> well, what i think members of congress think privately is pretty much what's governor chris christie and hutchinson say. that's what they think privately. publicly, obviously, the speaker is trying to hold on to his position. the marley curlee taylor green some of the others on the very far, far right, they actually believe all this stuff about the weaponization. but i would have to think that most republican members of congress who recognize that donald trump was reckless, careless, and it's dangerous, with classified material, and

should end his campaign. they don't want to say it, because i don't want to antagonize his base. it's a matter of fear. >> joe, you've talked to a lot of notley republicans, but maga republicans. jonathan cheat wrote in new york magazine, the reasonably healthy party might give its invited leaders something to fit of the doubt, while calling for judgment to be withheld before he has his day in court. but republicans correctly understand that their party will consider trump and innocent martyr regardless. the sickness of the republican party, as in presently constituted, is there is no conceivable set of facts that would permit its to acknowledge donald trump's guilt. do you agree with that? >> yes, and i love my friend and former colleague, charlie dent. i really, really do, but respectfully, i don't think he gets it. i don't think most of america, ali, gets it. my former party is gone. it's a radicalized, authoritarian embracing cult! all you have to do is look at this reaction! i mean, all, you and i have

talked about. it we've normalized it. we get numb to how bad trump is. and every member of congress standing by him, i don't think the reaction from his republican challengers for the nomination is nuanced, ali! asa hutchinson and chris christie have no constituency in this republican party. none. the only serious challengers, desantis, pence, haley, and scott, they have all stood by trump. they have all stood by trump. america needs to wake up, ali. the story is the party. donald trump is a criminal and a traitor. we know that. but this party has allowed him to be that, and they are standing with him. >> so, charlie, take that away. what do you make of that? if that's true, then does it matter what these republicans in congress? thank >> look, that maga element still is ascendant in the republican party, no question about that.

i agree with you on that point. here's where i disagree. i still think there are probably around 30%, one third, of republicans who desperately wants an alternative. i think that number is actually higher. there are people who want to move beyond trump. some of them, you know, support trump's policies. others do not. i think this is a much more complex situation in the republican party than we realized. but i do believe, knowing so many of my former colleagues and having speaking to several, they want trump to go away. they don't want him involved. they are also recognizing if they talk to them publicly about this, they run the risk of losing a significant piece of their base. that's their dilemma. it's a terrible dilemma. many of them don't want -- i say that respectfully, they don't want him. they think he's damaging the party. he is damaging the party. he has been, and he's causing them to lose elections they should not lose. they see nothing but defeat. trump has made losing great again. >> i love you, charlie dent,

but he is the overwhelming favorite to be the nominee, and damage, it doesn't count if you say it privately! it does not count if you say i want trump gone privately! that doesn't count! they're afraid to say it publicly, because this is where this party is? they recognize that. >> i agree with you on that point, joe. they must talk publicly. i completely agree with that, and that was one of my frustrations when i was in. i spoke publicly while i was in office about what trump was doing to the party, and how terrible it it has become. but they need to speak out. silence is not a way to defeat donald trump. we agree on that. point i think what chris christie is doing is a valuable service to the party. he's weaponizing himself, maybe he's an un-guided missile, but he's going right at the target. he understands it. he might not be the right messenger, but he's got the target. we need more of those republicans, both in congress and outside, to take him on directly.

you have to defeat the guy who is in front. he is leading. we agree. but a lot of republicans do not want him to be the nominee. they see the risk. this man could be convicted? he could be indicted a couple more times between now and the republican convention! so, i think we are at a point where the party really needs to get serious about where trump is an impediment. >> hold the thought. jim and joe, i know you got a good say. i gotta pay the bills. i'll be back for velshi and these two guys who love each other almost as much as i love both of them, when we come back. back shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. ♪ so caramel swirl is always there for the taking. (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants ♪

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former republican congressman, joe walsh, and charlie dent. it set, worlds to the end of my show, but that alex, what who takes over after me, came in and said, what a great conversation! don't worry about wrapping it up. just keep on going with these guys. joe, i know charlie said something. charlie, your friends had something to get your little hot under the collar about republicans. i want you to carry on where

you were, because right now, this is not an instruction for republicans. they've got a presidential primary underway, they've got a guy who is bleeding by double digits, and it's donald trump. >> ali, i need to say it again, i love my former colleague, charlie dent! i'm the crazy tea party guy, he was the responsible republican congressman, i miss those days when we argued about issues! look, here's the deal! no serious challenger to donald trump is going to criticize him, or attack him! they are not even trying to beat him, ali. all they're hoping for is that the justice system or a heart attack takes him out! but the party is gone! our former party is an authoritarian embracing cult! if not trump, ali, who do they want? who is the only other person even registering in the polls? it's ron the santas. he is a trump mini me.

there are so following for mike pence or nikki haley or tim scott or chris christie! it's hard to wrap your arms around the fact that one of our two major political parties is gone! >> charlie? >> yeah, throw, will i would say is this. here we are in june. we are so far out from the presidential election. a lot can happen between now and then. trump has been indicted two times. he may be indicted a few more times. he's gonna delay this thing as long as he can, but i do still think there are a lot of republican voters out there who want to move on, who want something different. they want to move forward. one of these kind of this is going to break through. i agree with you, that ron desantis, basically trying to beat the -- why even new pope when you can get the original? defending donald trump at a time like this. if you are opposing him i think it's bad policy. bad policy. don't take a cheap imitations.

get the original. it's a mistake. they did the same thing after the -- >> i don't think it's good politics at all because how is this going to help them in a general election, by embracing trump so closely? >> they want the nomination, my friend. they want the nomination. they want politics to defend donald trump right now, because that's what the base wants. >> the base needs to be led, and when more voices speak out, the problem is, if it's just a handful of people speaking, you're right. they're yelling into the winds. but, if we have more people speaking up in elected positions, they can help change the narrative! they get absolute change and there it is. >> i love you, brother, but that's the story of the past seven years. if only we had more republicans speaking out! that's the story. ali, charlie, think about this! we are two and a half years removed from donald trump leading a violent attempt to overthrow an american election!

he's still the party leader! it ain't happening. it ain't happening. >> all right, well, let's put a pin in this. i want to continue this conversation. it is an important conversation and i thank you both hear from people who truly believe the things that you are saying. therein lies the trouble with politics today. any hope of fixing the republican party. thank you guys very, very much for this. the former republican representative joe walterville on the way and charlie dent pennsylvania. that does it for me. thank you for watching. i'm back tomorrow morning, as normal, but i'm also here tonight joint before some more special indictment coverage. i'm going to be joined by several of my remarkable colleagues. see them all here on your screen. that is tonight, at eight pm eastern. our coverage continues after a quick break with my great friend, alex witt reports. t porerts. tience with sensitivity, i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of

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msnbc world headquarters. welcome to alex witt reports. we begin with the breaking news, in brand-new video of foreign former president donald trump golfing at his new jersey golf club about an hour before the historic or indictment was unsealed for all to see. the indictment charging trump with 31 counts of willful retention of defense information under the espionage act.