good night all of you from msnbc world headquarters. welcome to alex witt reports. we begin with the breaking news, in brand-new video of foreign former president donald trump golfing at his new jersey golf club about an hour before the historic or indictment was unsealed for all to see. the indictment charging trump with 31 counts of willful retention of defense information under the espionage act.

-- walt nauta, and the final count is four false statement. trump and are set to be -- the indictment laying out detailed allegations against the two, with pictures showing boxes showing classified documents stored in the bathroom. the twice impeached, now twice indicted former president is on the campaign trail today, speaking at republican state conventions at both georgia and north carolina. earlier today, trump's former lawyer, michael cohen weighed in on the case. >> this is more than just an espionage act. every single location that donald went to, from the time that he left the white house, to today, needs to be examined. donald will throw anyone and everyone under the bus in order to preserve his own freedom in order to benefit himself? . >> not a trump says he is

innocent, and plans to plead not guilty. but if convicted, he could face decades in federal prison. we have a number of reports, with the very latest information, and reaction today on the indictment to the former president. from miami to georgia, to washington d.c., and up first for miami, is my colleague katie phang, host of msnbc, the katie phang show. as well as nbc news justice and intel correspondent, kendall lanny. welcome to you both. , candles tart with you. what have we learned from the indictment? >> good afternoon alex. even for those of us following every movement in this case, there was a lot of new information here, and devastating detail. for example, a lot of trump defenders had said for a long time, it's not like the president of the united states packed his own boxes when he left for the white house. maybe the stuff was packed inadvertently. the indictment alleges that in fact, trump did help pack those boxes. and he was very cognizant of the material that was in them.

and he ordered his aide to move them around, to hide them from his own lawyers, and from the justice department. and so, both on the seriousness of the classified material we're talking about, the mention of nuclear programs, weapons systems, sensitive human sources, and also on the threat in sloppiness with which they were stored. there's a lot of new details, and in the obstruction conspiracy that is alleged here. i don't think we knew the extent to which there was evidence that donald trump blatantly deceived, again, both his own lawyers, and then justice department investigators. that is the part that i think is going to be really, really hard to mount a defense against. -- about the presidential records act. and the classification levels, and whether he declassified things. but on the obstruction, it's just about one of the strongest obstruction of justice cases i've seen in a very long time. >> it's pretty stunning when you look at it from that perspective. katie, as we take a closer look at the charges, and the

potential maximum prison sentence. it seems that charges related to withholding and concealing government records are considered more serious offenses, then the willful retention of national defense information. do you think that comes as a surprise to donald trump? >> well alex, i don't think anything is coming as a surprise to donald trump. and why is that my response to you? if you look at the allegations, in this very detailed indictment, you're seeing that donald trump, with full knowledge, corruptly, intended on being able to obstruct investigators from the federal government, from being able to obtain documents and materials that they were entitled, if not legally having the title right to receive. so donald trump may act like he is infuriated by the fact that he's been indicted, but the penalties in this case are appropriate. just because you don't have the authority to keep something, means that you're looking at ten years. but when you actually incorporate some type of corrupt intent, when you try to hide, when you try to conceal,

i'm not talking just the obstruction alex, i am talking about the willful corrupt concealment of records. that is 20 years in federal prison. and that is the exposure that donald trump is looking at for each of those types of charges. >> you make that point. each of those types of charges katie. so ken, as we move forward, what do you think the legal proceedings are going to look like? is it going to be very controlled? could there be a level of chaos? what does it look like? >> it's federal court, i'm not expecting chaos. so we're hearing this from the courthouse in downtown miami, which is in a large city block. which it looks like it could be easily secured and blocked off from the public. the secret service, the federal marshals, local police are all meeting intensely to talk about how to do that. in terms of what we're going to see, if mr. trump is treated like any other federal defendant, he will be booked, he will have to surrender, to the fbi or federal marshals, and processed. we'll take his fingerprints, we'll take a mugshot, which is

not supposed to be released. they will confiscate his passport. just think about how remarkable that is. the discovery that donald trump was man -- as a federal criminal defendant. he will go to court for a first sapirman. and he will be asked how he pleads. we expected to plead not guilty. the judge will then have to impose conditions, to decide how to handle him. obviously, we don't expect he'll be detained, but will the judge make any restrictions on what he can say? whether he can attack the prosecution in this case for example, or the judge, for anyone else involved, as he has been known to do in other criminal proceedings. we will be watching for that. so history will be made here on tuesday alex? >> that point really quickly, the fact that -- is it a special accommodation being made for the formal president from the mugshot not being released? >> no. federal mugshots are never released. remember new york, they did take a mugshot, because there is an argument that -- why do you needed mugshot of

donald trump? the federal government is more stickler about procedure. the only wrinkle is that he is obviously under secret service protection. there may be accommodations made without throughout the process. he will be accompanied by a secret service detail throughout the process. that may affect how things play out. but my sense is there's less room in the federal system to bend the rules for a federal defendant, alex. >> understandably. can mentions the judge katie. trump appointed judge, aileen cannon, who has been assigned to this case initially, has already made some favorable rulings to the former president. do you expect doj to challenge judge cannon out of the break? can they challenge, and what is the likelihood of winning that challenge if they do it? >> well, alex that is a great question, they may have been favorable rulings for donald trump. but the circuit of appeals oversees what happens with trump, for judges like aileen cannon. they smack down, they said you

did something wrong. does that mean that aileen campbell will be sufficiently che's when she actually is assigned to this case? we keep on emphasizing the word initially. she could herself remove herself as be the trial judge overseeing donald trump's case. or, the federal government could immediately move to recuse her. recusal standards are high, but not impossible to be met by the department of justice. if it looks like a judge alex has already made rulings in advance, the show that there's a predilection, or some type of preference for an outcome on either side, either for the government, or for the defense, you will bet your bottom dollar you will be seeing a motion to recoup's. if it's denied the, let me be clear, they will continue under the eyes of aileen cannon. but again, she has been chastised enough by the 11 circuits. it may mean that she moves forward in a more humble way. and doesn't do things that will result in her being overturned on appeal. >> we'll have to see on that front. what about you can in regard to any additional duty that she would suspect would be in place? well the secret service have to

take care of the special things are raging trump's travel? is there concern he will address the public in the courthouse, and potentially sparked unrest? >> i think there is that concerns. the secret service said in a statement that they will make no special accommodations for former president trump, other than to arrange safe travel, as they always do. because they're protecting him for life. and i believe there is a desire among federal officials, that he not speak outside this courthouse. because there is a fear that that could lead to some sort of unrest. the only thing that we learned from new york, is that perhaps the case, that donald trump has less inability to attract a crowd of rowdy protesters and he once did. particularly after out all of the arrests and prosecutions in the way of january six. which really did send a message to people that that kind of violence will not be tolerated. but nonetheless, there's a lot of planning going on to prevent something like that happening here. >> okay, kaitlan, can thank you both so much, can delaney,

katie phang. katie, no rest for you. we're inviting everyone to watch msnbc tonight, alex velshi leads and special coverage of the indictment alongside katie, jonathan capehart, alicia -- it will be tonight. a pm eastern, right here on msnbc. in just a few hours, donald trump will make his first public appearance since being indicted. this comes as most of his republican presidential rivals rush to defend him. nbc's garrett hague has more on their reactions. >> in a historic shake-up to the race to the white house. the republican front runner, former president trump, facing federal criminal charges. and now, mr. trump getting back up from some of his republican rivals. >> his top opponent, florida governor ron desantis, writing quote, the weaponization of federal law enforcement represents in mortal threat to our free society. his former vice president mike >> >> pence urging public patience, but blasting the department of justice, calling it a sad day in america.

>> the day after former president of the united states faces an unprecedented indictment. by a justice department, run by the current president of the united states. and a political rival. >> and this from gop candidate tim scott. >> what we've seen over the last several years, is the weaponization of the department justice against the former president. >> garrett hague joins me right now from columbus, georgia, welcome, garrett what do you expect to hear today from donald trump? >> well hey alex, good afternoon, i expect to hear a very fiery speech this afternoon from donald trump. he will be here at the republican party convention, in columbus georgia. several thousand republican activists, it is a very maga friendly crowd here. i expect the former president to tee off on main prosecutors, michelin counsel jack smith on the justice department.

trying to spill his guts here. what we've been seeing your true social for the last 36 hours or so. on his social media platform, the president has been calling smith deranged, he's attacking his wife by name, as a trump hater in his words. he has been trying to point out what he believes are inconsistencies between the justice department and the investigation of his handling of classified documents. there is an investigation president biden's -- found at his house, and his garage. so i think you will see, we've gotten used to the social media, post the tweets, the truth social post, it is his unfiltered reaction to the events of the day. this speech today, which will go through a, which will be run through the teleprompter, will be a slightly more filtered version of that. but you can't separate the legal elements of what donald trump is going through personally. from the political approach that his campaign, and his campaign advisers are taking. they want to make him a victim of what they believe is this

weaponize justice department, to rally republicans, rather this being stop one in that effort today. >> point well taken. it will be a speech that's on the teleprompter. i'm sure they've gone through, it in the fine points. but you can't guarantee that he won't go off script. second question, or actually my first question. that was a comment. it would be, do you expect any of his republican rivals, gary, and not particular form or elsewhere throughout the day, given that particular form is a mega friendly forum, to expect anyone to come on and challenge donald trump? or take issue with what has happened to him in the last 24 hours? >> they haven't really so far alex, most of what we've heard is been from chris christie, who is just add to the presidential rates this week. now christi is a former u.s. attorney. in addition to being a former governor. he knows a lot about this kind of thing, you pointed out he's prosecuted similar national security cases. he casts what donald trump has accused of here as being

incredibly serious. we'll hear from two of donald trump's republican rivals today. on here in georgia, but another campaign events. mike pence, and rhonda sanchez. how the reacts will be interesting. pence yesterday, early in the day, before the indictment was unsealed, was a little bit more reserved, a little more cautious. he doesn't like the idea that charges were brought here. but he left room in his response to see exactly what was going to be of the indictment. how serious the accounts were, what kind of information we're talking about. he asked for patience. i'll be curious to see having had an opportunity to read the indictment. likewise, ron desantis saying, theoretically, the guy in the closest striking distance of donald trump. has basically hugged him so far. most of what we've heard from him so far as been on twitter, talking about the idea of the weaponization of law enforcement. he has been really careful about trying to pick his spots, and attacking donald trump. does what he saw in that indictment, as a former jag officer in the navy, a prosecutor in the u.s. navy, does that raise his iron enough that he speaks out more

forcefully today? previous sides points to know. other guys will have to turn out that intensity when it goes to the freidman. >> excellent points. garrett hague, we look forward to for the reporting from you there. and we are just getting started. coming up, next a view from inside the doj, to the big announcement. plus, more on why the indictment came so quickly in florida. we're back in 60 seconds. gone're back in 60 seconds gone (vo) make it even smarter. we call this enterprise intelligence.

want a worry-free way to kill bugs? zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. >> today the indictment was unsealed. charging donald j trump with felony violations of our national security laws, as well as participating in the conspiracy to obstruct justice. this indictment was voted by a grand jury of citizens, in the southern district of florida. i invite everyone to read it in fall, to understand the scope, and the gravity of the crimes charged. we have one set of laws in this country, and they applied

everyone. >> there you have, it 30 seconds pretty much summed it all up. special counsel jack smith. he had that announcement yesterday after the unprecedented criminal indictment of a former american president. joining me right now, anthony coley, former doj spokesperson, head of doj's office of public affairs, and former senior adviser to attorney general merrick garland. now we welcome him as a justice legal affairs analyst. good to see you here on the show for the first time, i hope we make a lot of habit of this shall we say. i know that you are fresh off doj duty anthony. give me your assessment of how jack smith rolled out this indictment. >> he did it by the book. which is one of the reasons why he got this appointment. alex, i was at the justice department at the time, in november of last year, when the attorney general was faced with this extraordinary situation, of the former president running against the current president, whose cabinet the attorney general serves. it he made the decision, to ensure that whatever decision

was reached, in this case, that he wanted to be sure that whatever decision jack smith came to, that it was indisputably guided by the facts. that is why he chose jack smith. alex, you talked about him before. i would remind our viewers, that jack is not a political appointee of the justice department. he is a career prosecutor. he is registered as an independent. he was one of the leaders, you will recall, back in the middle of the last decade, who led the prosecution against former democratic senator, john edwards. this is not a man that has a political bone in his body. and it really is disheartening to hear pence and others, other republican presidential nominees just really disregarding the facts in this case, and reverting back to the typical presidential rhetoric here. it's really disturbing. >> he just seems like a guy who

does the work, put his head down, gets it done. when he gets it done, and then he doesn't listen to the noise around him. that has been our observation of his work thus far but what about donald trump? who announced his own indictment, had almost a full day to control the narrative before sun sealed. is it standard operating procedure to inform someone, first of all, that they are the target of an investigation, and or, informed them first before publicly announcing an indictment? >> yes, that is completely, that is completely normal. >> by the book. >> what is not normal is for that person to broadcast it to the world. and so in many ways, donald trump forced doj's hand, doj had that two options. wait until tuesday, at arraignment to ask the court to unseal the indictment. or ask the court early to unseal the indictment. i was, i sat on this network on thursday night, that the department had 24 hours alex to

release this information. or they risk of losing, or creating an information vacuum if you will. in which donald trump and allies would fill. i am glad that my former colleagues asked the court to release this information early. and i encourage to jack smith's point, everybody to take a moment, and to read it. because it is not legal leads. >> it is not. >> -- >> >> it's very straightforward. >> it's easy to understand. you don't have to take my word as a talking head who used to work for the justice department. it's really quite a stunning amount of detail. >> yes, take a listen to what former trump lawyer, timothy parlatore said earlier this week. here it is. >> so, i don't think is so much a choice to go to florida, so much as it is a choice that if you go to d.c., it's gonna get dismissed. they did a lot of things that you would not, that i have never seen out of experienced

u.s. attorneys offices. and so, really, jack smith, when he comes, in i suspect that behind closed doors, he looked a lot of the stuff and said, oh my gosh guys, what did you do? we have to fix this. >> does any of that sound plausible to you? is this a venue question? >> what's interesting about these remarks as i believe they occurred alex before any of us knew what the actual charges were. now we know that of these 37 counts, 31 of them relate to the willful retention of information. and the question, that i think any honest prosecutor would ask is, well, where did, where were the documents retained? i think that is the core of this particular argument. the documents were retained in florida, at mar-a-lago. so it makes sense, to, i think, bring charges there. what i will note about these classified documents, or these 31 particular charges, none of

that alex relate to the 190 or so items that the former president returned to the national archives, voluntarily, on january 2022. one year after he left office. and so, if donald trump had returned all of the hundreds of other classified documents, and other related government record, then he wouldn't be faced with these charges. this is a matter of donald trump's own making. and no lawyer from parlatore, or whoever decides to take up this case going forward, contains that. he wrote this himself. >> which begs the question, why keep these documents? but i'm curious also what you can tell us about the role that your former boss, merrick garland, is playing in all this. considering the special counsel rules require that he be kept informed of all of the major steps in the investigation. >> right. that's right, he has had and roll as you note, the

regulations require that jack smith not report on a day-to-day basis, to anybody, in the justice department. that is by design. one of the things the attorney general wanted to do, and number one, making this appointment, but number two, choosing jack smith, is to put distance between himself, as a political appointee. and the decision, that jack smith made. now we know that there were absolutely no political partisan politics at play here. i think that was the appropriate way for any attorney general to act. >> okay, anthony, duly noted. thank you so much. surprised? not surprised? next capitol hill's reaction to the indictment. the indictment look at how it absorbs all of the liquid. and locking it right on in! you feel no wetness. - oh my gosh! - totally absorbed!

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donald trump's federal indictment. both swift and reliably divided. with republicans rallying behind the former president, and accusing federal biden -- against his likely 2024 opponent. democrats are saying the charges should give americans faith in the justice system, that no one is above the law. -- joining us from capitol hill as always with the details. julie, what are you hearing from lawmakers today? >> not a lot of new reaction from republicans specifically since that indictment has been unsealed. last hour we heard from republican senator of south dakota. he's criticized the president in the past, but he did say in the statement which i thought was interesting, that indictment should concern all of us. he suggested the integrity of not only the executive branch, but also the justice department. there is a boot burden of proof on the doj, he said american people not question the integrity of both of those entities. we also heard from senator mitt romney yesterday who issued

perhaps the harshest rebuke of this indictment, of the former president. he said trump quote, brought it upon himself, which i thought was notable. he was alone pretty much in that camp. when you go over to the house, those republicans, particularly all of leadership, are standing firmly in the former president's corner. that could not be more evident than when you look at what speaker mccarthy had to say. take a listen to this video that he prerecorded and posted on twitter. >> when you learn, i think jim jordan's gonna bring it out tonight, when you learned that of some of the things that he had said, and how this investigation was carried out, you will see then, that this judgment is wrong. that they treated president trump differently than they treated others. and it didn't have to be this way. this is going to disrupt this nation, it goes to the core of equal justice for all, which is not being seen today. and we are not going to stand for it. >> now he's backing up chairman jim jordan, the head of the weaponization committee. of course, this is a committee

they formed newly-in this congress. they are seeing what happened in the situation is exactly that. the weaponization of government against conservatives, in this, case against former president trump, blaming joe biden, the president, for doing that. jordan sent a letter to attorney general merrick garland, -- backs up in, that asking for more information to come to light. >> okay, julie tsirkin on capitol hill. thank you julie. digging deeper into the specifics of the trump indictment, new questions about -- who helped move all those boxes. e all thos boxes. of two, and a grandmother of two. basically, i thought that my memory wasn't as good as it had been. i needed all the help i could get. i saw the commercials for prevagen. i started taking it. and it helped! i noticed my memory was better. there was definite improvement. i've been taking prevagen for a little over five years. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. trying vapes to quit smoking

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indictment are splashed across the front pages of newspapers from california to alabama, washington d.c. to florida. minnesota, pennsylvania and texas. i want to bring -- , with the guardian. hugo, welcome as always, i know you my friend have been on a roll, bring scoop after scoop on this story. what are you hearing today? are you learning anything about behind the scenes reaction to trump's world? >> yes, i think that behind the scenes reaction has been split from the campaign side, and the legal side. you know yesterday we learned that two members of the trump legal team, who had been representing -- on the case resigned. i am told there were two very explosive phone calls. on the night the indictment came, and then one of the

following morning with trump, over animosity over legal strategy, animosity over -- context. that is now out. because he needs to find a legal team to represent him. now that this case is going to trial, most notable of all i think, he doesn't have a national security lawyer on the team. this case is such an espionage act heavy case. >> yes, i understand his reporting, he'll be interviewing people on monday. that said, as we look at the long list of counts, and the potential jeopardy for donald trump, does the indictment detail, does it match the details that you've reported on this over the past few weeks? >> i think so, but i think the strength of the indictment was quite stunning. we knew that there were various moments that the council office has been looking at, for instance, the obstruction of justice, with evan corcoran trying to facilitate the subpoena response, -- out of the storage room. we now know that that is a key

moment of obstruction that is in charge. -- as a coconspirator in that obstruction effort. we also knew about the tape that cnn first reported, where trump is heard actively disseminating national defense information to people who are not authorized to hear about it during a meeting in bedminster. but actually, the most serious point in this indictment was not previously known. i think the most serious incident was when trump was showing the map, the classified map to a staffer at his action committee, and he was saying things like don't come to close. because it secret, as if there was a radio outside -- on the national defense information doesn't matter. i think that's really problematic. in that case, they appear to have a document, they appear to have an i would nurse who worked for trump himself. that is the most compelling evidence i think among all of

the compelling evidence in this indictment >> there is a lot of it, you tweeted this yesterday hugo, that trump aide, margot martin, who taped the conversation at bedminster in july 2021 told lawyers she testified she did not recall trump showing off any documents to participants. we're gonna point out here hugo, this is your reporting. it is not confirmed by nbc news, but trump is not charged with disseminating national defense information. having read the indictment. do you have a sense of where they got the info that he showed documents others? >> it's really interesting from what we understand over the last few months, special counsel has been showing a document related to iran to people in that meeting, and two other people when they go and testify in a grand jury. as far as we're aware, no one who has gone before the grand

jury has said yes, this was the specific argument that trump showed us during that meeting. and of course, trump's lawyers were subpoenaed for the document matching the description on the audiotape, they cannot find one. that kind of made me wonder if there was actually a document at all, in the special counsels -- it might be the fact that they don't have it. if they don't have, it they might've been reluctant to charge the dissemination charge. but i think the audio makes it very clear, that at the minimum, there was a retention charge that could be charged. this is why you don't see a dissemination charge in the indictment. >> okay, i appreciate getting through that everything else. hugo, good to see you. >> marjorie taylor greene weighed in on the donald trump indictment. her responses may be even more over the top and you may expect. alaska member of congress who serves with her on the oversight committee of her reaction, next. xt

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trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. >> we're back with breaking news. republican congressman marjorie taylor greene using trump's indictment to rile up a republican crowd. >> it's going to get worse. it is not going to get better. it is going to get worse, because they are going to continue. they don't want you to ever win elections again. they don't want you to ever be able to pick who you want. to live in the white house and run this country.

or hold any other political office. >> joining me right now is robert garcia, shaking his head there. a democratic and oversight committees. as i welcome you what is your reaction to what marjorie taylor greene. by the, whitewater of your oversight committee members, but do you want to elaborate on shaking your head there? >> look, she is incredibly and irresponsible person, that wasn't irresponsible comment this is someone that likes to lie consistently. that does nothing but attack people constantly, including the president, and everybody else on our committees. she is politicizing this, it's actually very serious, this is a very serious issue, and set of indictments. this is a former president, someone who's currently the republican front runner for the presidency. she's making into a joke. she takes everything about this case, and tries to politicize it, politicize, it fund-raise off of it. >> numerous trump allies in

congress are accusing the doj of being weaponized. you have how speaker kevin mccarthy who tweeted, it's unconscionable for a president to indict the leading candidate opposing him, joe biden can't classified documents for decades. >> what is your response to that? are these two situations at all comparable? what impact can distrust between congress and the doj have on the country? >> look, i think first, the mega republican response especially all the way down from steven mccarthy has been, completely irresponsible. the truth is, we have a doj investigation that is historic. a federal indictment, numerous charges against former president of the united states. this is something that is ready to fund-raise off of this issue. you have a speaker, who really, inflamed the issue. it's really irresponsible. we have also seen, was really crazy around the country, a lot of these republicans, especially in districts around new york, california.

they say absolutely nothing. i think, what we have to be doing at this moment is take the seriousness of what happens, and focus on government. to compare this of what happened, and what's going on with president biden is also irresponsible, we know they have nothing to do with each other. we have a doj zoning in on what appears to be very serious crimes. the oversight committee has been involved obviously, a lot of the issues that are being brought forth, we're gonna continue to push back on these lines against president biden. after focus right now on allowing the doj to do their job. >> as you know congressman, house judiciary chair wrote to eric garland demanding documents related to the mar-a-lago search. this feels similar to when jordan demanded documents from manhattan d.a. alvin bragg following the indictment there. what could this oversight process look like? how do you think it will be met by democrats? >> i think we have to take it very seriously. the most important thing for us to do honestly is to get out of the way of the doj. the doj clearly has been

incredibly careful and deliberate in this process. i think they obviously have been briefing congress, ensuring folks know that everything that's going on is being done in a most careful and serious way. i think it's not beneficial to anyone for jim jordan, for anyone in congress to try and get in the middle of a serious investigation. donald trump is now gonna have to face a jury going, to have to face a court system, going to have to stand for us the serious crimes that they've likely committed. it's not good for congress to be involved in that process. i think jim jordan is also trying to politicize this. i think that right now is what is wrong with the republican party. they continue to put politics over actually governing. all the way from speaker mccarthy, all the way folks marjorie taylor greene, george santos, they are right now attacking the very serious investigation we should all be concerned about. >> donald trump faces another

significant legal, probes the special counsel january six investigation, georgia's election interference. do you see either or both resulting in charges against him? >> i, mean we don't know. obviously there are multiple investigations coming out of the pipeline, of which they appear also to be serious. i think, i think this will continue. you have essentially the front runner for president nomination now being charged, multiple charges here, federal level, we'll see what's happening in new york ahead of georgia. and yet the entire republican apparatus in party is standing behind him. this is crazy, the fact that mostly republican base. with very few exceptions is standing by a former president and nominee that is a criminal con man. donald trump is the biggest con man to ever serve as president of the united states. he's a serial liar, a fraudster, he is now federally indicted he will likely face other serious charges, and to see the republican party lineup behind this, it's really unbelievable. donald trump is not only broke

it in many ways the institution, he's broken the republican party. >> california congressman, robert garcia, come see me again anytime. thank you so much >> thank you. >> with donald trump except a plea where charges are dropped if he doesn't run for elected office, and he elected office ever again? is that even a possibility? with the public even except that? excep that you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good.

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a political fallout from the 37 -- indictment against president donald trump is just beginning from trump himself to those who will or are still in his orbit. the impact could be far reaching. so joining me now is -- daily columnist and editor,, and mark lee dovish msnbc political contributor staff writer for the atlantic. good to have you both here. in this new opinion piece that you have here is what you say. trump's video rant against the boxes reveals how lost he is.

how is trump struggling to clear up what he's been charged with? >> he's trying to mitigate the waters as he always does, and in this particular instant what's fascinating it's -- there are boxes there, but he keeps saying they have a right to have them, which was not true, it's just completely untrue when you read the indictment you see how he worked to prevent the return of the classified documents, that the grand jury subpoena said he had to do the. fact that he just out there, saying i had them, saying i have the right to have them. >> multiple times, multiple times. in >> the last 24 hours he said i have every right to have them, it's a crime now to keep things that were mine. yes, it is a crime. so, the fact that he is trying to make it, he's preaching the choir as he always does, the video and the rallies and his truth social post, he's trying to tell them that he did nothing wrong without explaining exactly what

happened. he is not explaining exactly what did happen, and that's the job of the prosecutors that cuts through that in a criminal case. >> 100 percent. mark, trump is going to be, or here appears to have widespread support despite being handed the indictment. will this legal quagmire at all impact his campaign or his front-runner status? >> the president is that he won't affected, he could solidify it, although i don't know if i completely far the idea that this makes him unbeatable -- i actually, you know, i don't know if there's actually a -- i was undecided between nikki haley and ron desantis, but now this, he got indicted again, so i want to support trump now. i don't know if that exists in the real world, but look, there's clearly a loyalty to him among certain sectors or large sectors of the republican party. the question is is this going to be tested once more bad news

cycles, more damning things released about him, and he obviously could get indicted again and again after that. i'm not sure how this will wear, but we've seen him -- a rallying effect around him based on the first -- >> then, to what effect for the candidates, because many of the gop presidential candidates were criticizing him over the federal indictments. some are criticizing the doj's decision -- are those candidates missing an opportunity here, because do they have any shot at front runner status? getting the nomination if they don't go after donald trump. >> it's sort of pathetic, first of all, the idea that, well, ron desantis was tougher on the doj weaponization that mike pence was is not something people talk about. you know, i think there is an opening there -- >> he's gotta take it if it's.

there >> chris christie seems to be running with it -- a few candidates who are going extremely close to zero. yeah, so you can say that's a desperate attempt. this is an exhausting process the country has been through -- going over seven years now. you would think that it resonated to a different sector of the republican library. >> there's an only piece that you write -- that mike pence has a trump indictment problem, right, because he defended him in the classified documents case in the manhattan d.a.'s case, however, he has drawn a pretty clear line between himself and the president relative to january six. >> exactly, so i feel like, as it's relatively easy for pence at this point, they say yes, the manhattan d.a. -- this documents case, i had my own documents case, --

this is clearly, this would be divisive and wrong. he's made january 61 of the focal points of his campaign so far. if and when jack smith does present charges related to january 6th, against donald trump, pence will have to decide then, do i stick with the campaign's team has been so far and say yes, justice has to be done, no one is above the law, or does he say well, i guess that we shouldn't do this because of reasons. i don't know where pence goes, he feels like he's painting himself into a corner on january 6th. >> yeah, make sense there. what about mark, because some have floated the idea of -- except a deal, the deal that charges would be dropped if he took himself out of the race for president, is that even possible, and if it is, does that look inherently political. >> well, i guess it is, -- some kind of deal like that that involves the essence of

the democratic process. either way, i don't think trump will accept that. the admission of guilt is not exactly his thing, especially one as sweeping as -- from the only thing that he sees as relevant and part of the rest of his life. so, i don't see that happening. >> if it did happen, though, if that were put out, wouldn't that foster a lot of anger across the country? >> absolutely, both from the left who we'd want to see some of the justice be done besides him not being able to run for president again, and on the rights i think the idea that this actually would feel more like interference than the actual going through the criminal process. the trial process. it would feel weird, especially when you consider that congress under the constitution, has the power to block trump from running again. they had the chance after january six, during the second impeachment, and they decided not to. that's one of the few ways

under the constitution to block someone from ever running for office like that again. the fact that they didn't take that chance, maybe there is a wild, wild chance they could go for three, and they can go over three. that is, the idea of trump actually taking that option, i agree with mark, doesn't feel like trump. >> let me ask you mark, last question quickly, do you see any scenario in which you have donald trump the candidate, if not the president? do you want to stay behind bars. >> say that again, like running actually being. >> being behind bars and still running for president, let alone being elected. it's >> possible to, and it's also possible to be elected, there's nothing in the constitution that says you can't elect the guy from in jail. >> isn't that stunning? >> it is stunning, i would like to think that the country is not there, and also practically, how does that work? yeah, i mean technically as possible, it