someone from ever running for office like that again. the fact that they didn't take that chance, maybe there is a wild, wild chance they could go for three, and they can go over three. that is, the idea of trump actually taking that option, i agree with mark, doesn't feel like trump. >> let me ask you mark, last question quickly, do you see any scenario in which you have donald trump the candidate, if not the president? do you want to stay behind bars. >> say that again, like running actually being. >> being behind bars and still running for president, let alone being elected. it's >> possible to, and it's also possible to be elected, there's nothing in the constitution that says you can't elect the guy from in jail. >> isn't that stunning? >> it is stunning, i would like to think that the country is not there, and also practically, how does that work? yeah, i mean technically as possible, it would be utterly

bizarre and depressing and i would love to think that this is purely -- >> let's hope, all right, good to see roe, thank you guys. meantime, of course, no shortage of angles to the trump and vitamins. we're unpacking all of these next, but first, this washington post editorial, a shower full of secret documents elites to a solid trump indictment. and then there's this, trump denied having nuclear secrets, the feds say heated, and of course, a look ahead with trump indicted, officials prepare for a tempest, his court appearance the expectations for tuesday, all this next hour. all this next hour as i bet you all a very good day, from msnbc world headquarters here in new york, welcome everyone to alex witt reports. we begin with the breaking news in about 74 hours, former president donald trump will surrender himself to -- in miami, as he prepares for the second arraignment in two

months. today, trump is heading the campaign trail, making stops in georgia and north carolina, where he'll get his first public speeches since being federally indicted. the former president hit with a 37 count indictment for the special counsel's office, accusing trump of breaking seven different laws, including 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information. here's a look at the types of documents found at mar-a-lago, related -- briefings, military and nuclear capabilities of foreign countries. communication with a foreign leader, u.s. military planning, and u.s. nuclear weaponry. these documents originated, or involved agencies like cia department of defense, and, national geospatial intelligence agency, national reconnaissance office and others. i'll be talking with -- about the national security implications in just a few minutes. brand-new video today showing a summons trump teed off at his new jersey's golf club just

about an hour before the bombshell wasn't unsealed. as republicans really around trump, refusing the -- weaponized earlier today democratic congresswoman stacey plus pushing back on that. >> to say that the entire rule of law of the united states should be dismantled, should be defunded because it is looking into white nationalist, insurrectionists, and president trump is absolutely ludicrous and very, very dangerous. that's what my colleagues such as jim jordan -- as well as skipper speaker mccarthy -- foundation for americans, not to believe the indictments, and not to believe and conviction of former president trump. >> we have several reporters and analysts in place with the very latest information and reaction today on the indictment from miami to north carolina, to georgia. so we're organ -- with my colleague katie phang, host of the katie phang show

here on msnbc, and kendall enion, nbc's news justice and mental correspondent. welcome again to you both, can, give us a sense of what's in the indictment, and what charges the former president is up against. what are the expectations there in miami? >> a, alex, it's a 38 count indictment, 37 counts against former president, 49 pages. reads in some ways like a movie script, but legal experts say it's an incredibly strong and detailed case. really on three fronts, the willful possession of classified materials, donald trump had all those things that you mentioned before the crown jewels of american intelligence that he wasn't supposed to have. but also alleging that he lied about it, and that he disseminated, that he showed classified material on two instances to people who weren't entitled to see it, and then that he conspired to obstruct justice with his eighth and valet -- not to. that's something that's --

the president biden uses, as well. there is an incredible distinction between those two cases, but leaving that aside, it's going to be really difficult for donald trump's defenders to speak to this issue, this obvious evidence including reporting that trump showed -- who weren't supposed to see them, and that he obstructed justice in a really blatant way. according to the allegations in this indictment. we're even hearing from some people, normally trump supporters, like allen dershowitz who -- now say wait a second, this indictment looks strong to me, alex. >> katie, trump avoided judge -- has been a sign of a case initially, of course, previously as you well know -- from former president. how are you expecting doj to handle that. can they challenge it, and can be their chances of winning? >> so, alex, aileen cannon who you just said, and noted, is a very familiar figure dealing with donald trump at the mar-a-lago case.

she was randomly selected, i know there's some people out there that thinks it's not possible, she was randomly selected, and a lottery system to be able to hear this case. the doj has a very interesting proposition in front of it. do they immediately straight out of the gate, move to recuse or,'s saying that she has a preelection or predisposition to role in donald trump's favor when it comes to particular issues, or do they wait for some major decision -- indicating that that's where she's leaning. there are options available to the department of justice but previously, when aileen cannon was appointing the special master that ultimately the 11th circuit court of appeal says, no, you are wrong on the law, you are wrong on the merits, you couldn't have done that. she got smacked down by the 11th circuit, so alex, i think the question is, what that is enough -- to sufficiently chase and judge aileen cannon to make sure that they actually follows the law and stays within her guardrails when she is rolling over cases like donald trump. >> what can you tell us about how the federal court there in miami is preparing for trump's

arraignment on tuesday. are there any specific secret service concerns? >> well, the secret service is saying they're not making any special accommodations for trump, but they do protect his life, and there were death threats, the judges here, during the whole saga over the search warrant, so they're very real security concerns. this is a federal courthouse that has experience dealing with high profile trials. it's on a square block here that can be blocked off from traffic and the secret service, the federal marshals, and miami police are going to meet and they're going to plan about how to secure this. it's going to be a real concern, even as we see donald trump, former president of the united states, turned himself into be booked and processed by the fbi and federal marshals, fingerprinted, mugshot taken, then he'll go into court, you'll asked be asked how he pleads to these charges, and then hopefully you'll plead not guilty, and then -- what he can say and do in this case, it's all going to be a remarkable setup set of

circumstances that come with some significant security issues. >> 100 percent. katie, how does this indictment come together so quickly in miami? can a gradually reach a decision that fast, or was this happening all along and we just didn't know? >> you know, alex, it's a hat tip to special counsel jack smith and the department of justice. there was a lot of activity going on behind me, in this federal courthouse in miami, of which none of us knew, and i include not only the media, but the american public at large. people were not aware that a grand jury had been seated, and let me be clear, alex, it didn't just sit for a couple of days, a few days ago, last week, to be able to make this decision on the screen jury, indictment being returned. it's been meeting for a while, and how do we know that? well, there are various witnesses that appeared in front of this grand jury that -- testimony. there has been evidence that's received by this grand jury, this did not happen overnight. again, it's a testament to the ability for jack smith and the members of the department of justice, as well as the fbi for

that matter, to keep the rails shut. to be able to work diligently, to be able to seek justice and make sure that is done. >> do you get the sense, katie, that folks in miami were surprised to see all the attention suddenly focused there? >> oh, yeah, absolutely. remember, we were looking at a grand jury subpoena that was in the news, that was issued from a grand jury in the district of columbia. because of that, people were looking in d.c.. a lot of people were not looking in miami, and so that is why everyone's now converging here, and there's a surprise arena on tuesday for donald trump. >> there sure is, the pm eastern, will all be there. thank you so much katie phang and can the lenient. tonight for all you msnbc, easily velshi lead special coverage of the indictment. he'll be alongside katie, as well as him in -- john capehart, militia -- it will be tonight for you at a pm eastern, only here on msnbc. as we mentioned, donald trump will make his first public appearances today since his federal indictment, speaking at

the gop convention, both north carolina and georgia. moments ago, former vice president mike pence took the stage in north carolina, the first time, in fact, that he and his former boss have appeared at the same offense and pence announced his campaign for president this week. joining me now is nbc's blaine alexander in greensboro, north carolina. blaine, welcome. what did the vice president former vice president, have to say about trump's indictments, and what can we expect from trump when he takes the stage later on? >> well, alex, he's in the middle of talking about it right now. you can see him over my shoulder, he's been onstage for about 15 minutes or so, and jessica's go he said that under a pence administration he would, in his words, and politicization of the doj. he also said that he's speaking here in north carolina after a sad day for america's, calling it sad day, and a former president would be indicted. these largely echoed -- former vice president yesterday in new hampshire. was notable today, alex, these are his first comments publicly

at all since that indictment was -- it would be interesting to see whether his tone changes. yesterday, we heard from the former vice president a number of times calling for the facts of the case to be made public. calling for the indictment to be unsealed for the american people to learn more about the facts of the case. all of that is out there. we'll certainly be interesting to hear if his tone changes, and that's something that will be pressing him on later today. i can question him after the speech. as for what we would like to hear -- he's going to be taking the stage -- just a few hours from now, but it's notable he will be speaking in front of a different audience than what we're going to find in georgia. for instance, for want to be following two of his rivals, for vice president pence and ron desantis that spoke last night, and also, alex, just me spending times -- today, he's going to be before a crowd of people, who in some cases, are still trying to make their mind. still trying to decide who

they're going to support in 2024. they said that while they voted for trump in 2016, in 2020, and one person's words, he says he's leaning more towards desantis this time around because he says the ultra conservative values -- but without all of the baggage, in his words. he certainly going to be speaking -- but asked what he's going to say, alex, i suspect he's likely going to be sending that same defiant tone that he's been having all along, including what he's been echoing on a social media platform today. alex. >> i would put good money on it that -- listen, kudos to my friend, you perfectly well modulated your voice, while it's all going on behind you. you've got your message across, so well done. meantime, it is a fascinating part of the indictment, the photos of all those boxes, how did donald trump accumulate all of that stuff? next reaction from a former fbi special agent, we're back in 60 seconds. in 6 seconds.

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details in the 49-page indictment of the former president trump -- allegations that classified documents contained information on u.s. nuclear programs. defensive weapon capabilities, that both the u.s. and foreign countries, potential military vulnerabilities, and plans for a possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. but it's some of the visual aspects of the indictment the washington post highlighted it in and out oriole starting house it -- were stored at mar-a-lago. the editorial board -- boxes removed from a ballroom staged to a storage closet to a bathroom and shower and one point spilling onto the floor. let's bring in clint ross, msnbc national security analyst and former fbi special agent. clint's always good to have you here. i'm curious what the most alarming thing is that you've learned about this case. is it the cavalier way, in which these incredibly sensitive documents restored?

>> i think it's hard to say between apples and oranges which is worse. the level of the documents that are there are how they were handled, both are equally bad. just really shocking, the nuclear secrets are the most protected, and especially anything with nuclear response. i thought that was more than what i would have expected in terms of the level of secrets -- special access programs, very few people read into those programs and that those documents would be down there. it's alarming, and quite frankly, it's weird. i don't know why people would want to take those or remove them, i think motive is just confusing in all of this. the second part is not to just have the documents restored, but they were moved around repeatedly. there was no accountability out all their no one knew what was in the boxes it seems like, or whether we be removed to or why they were being moved. it wasn't just at mar-a-lago, it was betraying florida and new jersey -- total loss of control of classified information,.

in discussing things like leaks coming out of the government, and we've seen the reaction on those, to see this brazen disregard for secrets is pretty incredible. >> we even have more looks, the images of how these boxes were kept at mar-a-lago. as we've said, stacked in the bathroom, some scattered across the floor, but your overall reaction to this relative to how potentially easy it was to access. there were boxes stacked in the hallway, at the end of which, had a door that the winds usually left unlocked. somebody getting access, somebody could have just walked in, opened up the top of the vault box, and said what's in here. let's see, oh this is how a foreign country might respond if there was a nuclear attack. come on. >> it's beyond bizarre, just imagine as well the people taking pictures of it, texting back and forth. hey, here's what on the floor, here's some documents here. -- damages back and forth with staff, it's a crazy scenario,

really. that would never happen, you can't even get your phone inside a secure compartmentalized -- in the government. you can get your phone in those places, we log all that down. you can see in the indictment, it wasn't just that there were documents strewn around on the floors. people are taking pictures and moving them around, and i think we don't know who's seen those. >> clint, to your point, how do you think trump first of all accumulated these masses of papers all of this out there, and then transported out of the white house, seemingly without setting off any immediate alarm bells. >> i don't know, but i think this was the culture, the operational culture during the trump tenure, which was anything goes, you can do whatever you want. this classified information it's donald trump's information. i think that's how it was viewed amongst the staff and they can do whatever they want with it. i think really the most interesting part of the indictment was the admittance in the indictments that these

documents were classified admitted that the you cannot declassified them, and that there was a problem with him sharing that information. that all comes out in the indictments. i think that's why you hear a lot of lawyers, evaluate the evidence here, and which in the indictment. it is pretty remarkable just how damning this is because it really is to culpability. the president former president, spells it out himself. he knows it, these were anti-classified documents. >> on msnbc on friday -- who of course has served both as chair and on the house intelligence committee, described his views of the dangers of trump keeping these documents in a personal residence. take a look at what he said. >> this isn't a paperwork violation. these are national secrets that present national security rest of the country, had they've been shown to others are made available to others or been stolen. give me an assessment plan as a

danger at the situation, how consecration it is, that donald trump had these documents for as long as he did before they were seized by the fbi. >> yeah, there's definitely a risk assessment being done, i'm sure, within the entire federal role government to understand with the potential dangers of disinformation would be. i do wonder if they know how many people had access to it or if other nations or entities had access to these documents. separately, the biggest part of intelligence and in keeping a romans >> -- 's trust. that's the foundation of what we do in the intelligence community, it's build relationships with foreign partners. we share information -- to facilitate that sort of national security secrets moving around. that's really tough to hold, especially when we see how these documents have been handled. we made our counties are -- as a country, and other countries will take care of their secrets. the five countries that share certain levels of intelligence with each other, that's hard to argue that we're going to take

really good care of these dark documents or information whenever you see them, just strewn about across the shower room floor. >> i think those five eyes, australia, new zealand, canada, great britain, the united states. those are the five in that particular group that share. let me ask you quickly, because you bring up the dni not giving an assessment. -- he says, confirms that this hasn't been provided to congress and the assessment of the potential risk to national security. why does that not surprise you? we know that the odni declined to comment, but do you think one is coming and how soon might that happen? >> i wouldn't know how soon it would have been, i do imagine it is being done. it also may not be complete in the sense that this investigation seemed to be going on for quite some time. we knew about the search warrant going back many months ago. it looks like some of these events went back two years, so

you can imagine a length of time and the scope in terms of this, two different locations, lots of different documents numbering in the hundreds. it could take them some time to really do that risk assessment and honestly, i don't know that any of us can really estimate with the timeline would be to do that. >> yeah. clint, we do have some breaking news, i want to ask you about this. we are just getting word that the former unabomber, ted kaczynski, has died in prison. when you think about ted kaczynski, given your position with the national security, what comes to mind in the fact that he has passed in prison after serving many years behind bars? on reflection, what do you think? >> yeah, it's pretty interesting and to what was the start of the terrorism here in many ways. if you remember back, he was sending mail bombs as late as the 1970s, going well into the 1990s. if i remember correctly, it was

[inaudible] and the mid 1990s, it was seen as the most, really imprisoned for many decades. it was during the era where we were worried about domestic terrorism. remember in the 1990s, before 9/11, we were talking about eric rudolph, we were talking about ted kaczynski, we were talking about timothy mcvay. those were the big terrorist attacks of the 1990s. they were domestic in origin, and his case was probably the most complex. he sent a series of bombs, it took him a long time, the fbi, the massive investigations spanning many different states and jurisdictions. and really, what was the thing that brought kaczynski down was they actually allowed the media to print his manifesto, and that was brought the case opened, because his brother, says -- his brother wrote it and he recognize the writing. it was a remarkable -- they didn't want to manifest out there because it might inspire others but at the same point it was a clue that if you open it up to a crowd, it

would've been an early source of ridge into the crowd sourcing, if you opened it up into a crowd, you get lots of tips and leads. and that's exactly what happened. >> given the time when this happened, as you say, it was pressing, to things that happened in a more complete sway, tragically, since he was arrested. , tragically, since what do youe for the fbi, being an insider and working on this, and the concern, the level of concern within the fbi trying to find this guy? it was like a needle in the haystack. >> this was one of the cases i was trained on as a brand-new agent of the fbi academy. it was one of the terrorism cases that they trained on, like what do you do when you have a lone actor whose highly intelligent, who knows how to come cover their tracks, who uses a somewhat random pattern and tries to trace it out when they're delivering it to the mail. it is the last the pre-internet, highly complex terrorism investigation. there were hundreds if not thousands of agents that worked on this case over many years.

it really points back to how complex things were in the analog era. you are looking at newspapers, you are looking at new linguistics, you are taking tips and leads off a telephones and going out and interviewing people in person. very different from the investigations we see today, which largely are driven by internet traffic, social media presents, doing polls of cell phones and credit cards, wildly different compared to what we see today, it's really a forerunner of what is to come. >> is that because of the internet that we would never see the likes of a 17 year bombing campaign that killed three people, injuring 23 others, that was conducted by ted kaczynski, for which he was put behind bars for four life sentences. do you think that we wouldn't see that today because of the ability of the fbi, doj, investigators have -- internet technology to do so. >> yes, it's not just the

internet, it's also a lot of the technical capability that cases like this actually spawned, which is how do we understand -- how do we look for fingerprints and different locations or ways. there is lots of different imagery instead of the sensors that are out there and also just in terms of everything from license plate readers to cctv cameras that are around every building. wildly different today so you would have a lot more tips and clues, likely, then you would have back then, when there wasn't much connectivity. i think the evidence is trail, in some ways, it's actually easier today. -- with them through the internet, rather than doing it with the analog methods. that's what's was so complex about this, he stretches attacks out over many, many years and he did it using the mail system in a way that he just couldn't do those sort of technical forensics back then. >> all right, everybody, again, the unabomber, ted kaczynski, that today. the age of 81. he passed away in north

carolina at a federal prison medical center. clint watts, thank you so much for your information on all of this. the breaking news, i appreciate you. meantime, the former president expected to make his first public remarks since the release of his indictment. the expectations next. the expectations next. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone.

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makes his first public appearance since he was indicted. this comes as republicans are rallying around trump including his presidential challengers, let's go right to nbc's garrett hate, jordan duenas from columbus. where donald trump will take the stage shortly. what are you expecting? >> good afternoon, we expect to see the former president on the ground in georgia shortly. the photographer at the airport is watching his plane come. and when he gets, here to the convention center, near columbus, you'll find 2000 republican activists, pretty friendly room, looking forward to hearing his remarks here

today. i expect him to play into the special counsel, i expect him to go after the apartment of justice and basically turn a two-day long running stream of consciousness attack on troop social into a coherent speech where he can make his political argument about. and then i will sit back and watch to see how his republican opponents react because so far they have been more interested in condemning the justice department's handling this case with the actions of the far president. here is some of what we have heard from some of those other republicans not named donald trump so far. when >> i'm deeply troubled to see this indictment. believing that it will only further divide our nation, a time that american families are facing real hardship at home. >> there needs to be one standard of justice in this country. let's enforce it on everybody. let's make sure we all know the rules. you can't have one faction of society weaponizing the power

of the state against factions that it isn't like. >> in america, every single person is presumed innocent, not guilty. and what we've seen over the last several years is the weaponization of the department of justice against the former president. >> we can't have any more distractions, we can't have the, chaos we have to leave the negativity behind. >> alex, if you squint hard enough at that nikki haley, clip you can see the outlines of an attack strategy from another republican who wants the presidential nomination. basically saying, whatever else you might think about the justice department and what have, you wouldn't it be nice to get past this kind of distraction and not have to talk about this kind of thing instead of the other things that republicans stand for? and the other issues that voters care about. perhaps that will become the blueprint for how these other candidates choose to go after donald trump. we've passed the prologue here, like with the new york, case many other candidates were far more interested in defending him than attacking --

than they were from talking about what killer failings the indictment might reveal. obviously this is a more serious set of circumstances, a more serious set up facts alleged. the political outline appears to be the same. at least in these early days. >> absolutely. letting you know, my friend, thanks to your photographer there at the airport, we watch donald trump's plane touchdown. he's coming your way. buckle up. thank you. we >>, next new questions about the former presidents valet who was charged alongside him as a coconspirator. who is walt not a? and has he already flipped on donald trump? legal analysis next. legal analysis next. we it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels and contains high quality protein to help manage hunger and support muscle health. try boost® today. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪

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news. the unprecedented criminal indictment of a former u.s. president. details of the allegations against donald trump splashed across the front pages of newspapers today from coast to coast. trump will face a judge tuesday after being federally indicted on 37 counts, including 31 counts of willful retention of

national defense information. today, former cia director, john brown and gave him a -- new insight on the types of documents trump is accused of keeping. >> these are the insights we have from intelligence, the technical sources that allow us to make sure that we take the appropriate steps to protect this country. the fact that donald trump so cavalierly and carelessly and recklessly allows these documents to be left unsecured for so long, in a facility, mar-a-lago, that would be an easy intelligence target. and really, i think it just shows how much he disregarded not only the rule of, law but the safety and security of its citizens. >> joining me now, harry lippman, former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general, now constitutional law professor. l.a. times legal affairs columnist, and host of the talking feds podcast.

it makes you a pretty busy fellow. also, sandy german, justice reporter with the wall street journal. she's been skipping the heck out of this story. glad to have both of you here. harry, i will start with you now. what is your take on jack smith's handling of this so far? did he give trump any kind of a leg up by not unsealing the indictments sooner? with what do you think he is focused on today? >> it's interesting, at the top of the -- the excerpt that you focused on, when evan corcoran is the two separate witnesses in the case. and the loyal gopher for trump 's loyal to the, they clearly put a lot of pressure on him, and they have leveraged to do it because he lied to the fbi for telling them there was no sensitive documents. and the indictment is full of information. he moved 64 boxes out of the storage cabinet, brings only 30 back. they almost certainly gave him

a very good plea offer to turn on trump, he decided not to, as a result, he is a coconspirator win to experience sea to obstruct justice. 20-year exposure. we'll see if he holds tight. he is the last loyalist to trump. because he's really paying dearly. >> is it more complicated though? for trump to have a codefendant? >> well, no. it is complicated in the sense that he could always turn on him. but they wanted him not to have a co defendant. they wanted him to just give the facts. now they can still get those, facts notice they are in the indictment, but through other ways. including evan corcoran and surveillance tapes. it is not that it makes it harder for trump, it's that they wanted to make it harder for him so he would cooperate and have to forego that for

now. >> for, now we will, see as you, say it could change. what are you hearing from your sources today? is there any insight into what prosecutors are focused on right now? >> well, we know that walt had been a focus of the investigation for months. and they had talked to him back in the fall, initially but they stop talking to them and that's kind of -- his lawyers cited concerns that he was a target, now we're seeing he's been charged. prosecutors are continuing the second prong of their special counsel investigation. that's examining a totally different set of facts. the efforts by trump and his allies to overturn his 2020 election. that aspect is still ongoing as well. certainly, we will be hearing more details about the classified documents at mar-a-lago in coming days. as trump begins to make his court appearances, justice department begins to file this information in court, make it

free and available to the public. >> i'm gonna give you, props you are the one who broke the story yesterday that he was charged alongside trump. who is this? harry described him as the loyal valet. who is walt nauta? what has he done for donald trump? how long has he been with him? give us a sense of who he is. >> he was somebody who worked in trump's white house before moving with him to mar-a-lago. in his capacity as a valet, that is not a political position, but it's more of a staff position, and so he would do everything from fetching him his diet cokes and doing chores for him, tasks, that's type of thing. to moving, apparently, the boxes at mar-a-lago. and what is striking about the indictment related to walt's this detail that he apparently found a box of documents spilled on the floor, took a picture of, them sent them to other aides. and then further questioning

told investigators that he didn't know anything about the documents or the moving of them. so that is something that prosecutor said is false and puts walt squarely in the crosshairs alongside the former president. >> you know, harry, the maximum sentences that are possible, they appear to be higher on the counts where trump and not a are both charged. so back to whether the guy would flip. is this a tactic to encourage cooperation from him? >> 100%. and we have to understand, the indictment was proceeded with a heavy push to make him flip. the charge, we sadie just limited, he lied to the fbi, that's a straightforward thousand and one. that is a year or two of exposure. they probably would have made it even lighter. the conspiracy to obstruct justice, which sounds a lot more serious, has a statutory max of 20. years it's not that he wouldn't

get 20 years, for it but he could well get five, six years. it is up there with everything that trump has done. and, they could -- they have the goods on it based on the conduct they think they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. that's a lot of pressure and a lot of loyalty. he is the weisselberg figure in this case. he is the one who just hasn't bent yet. but man, he is really showing his we'll see, which i think is what trump depends on when interesting him with doing all of his dirty work with the boss. >> good analogy we, let me ask you about the indictment with all of the boxes, having detailed them in a ballroom stage. a bathroom. a shower. trump's bedroom. and then those couple of occasions that he allegedly shared classified documents to others. allegedly directing all of that move 64 boxes from the storage room to his residents. and then brought to the storage

room only 30 of them, without informing his attorney. how can trump get around details like this? and does doj need nauta as a witness? it does do they need? him is that the charges? >> -- that's why the guy who was helping kanata, you may remember, went to the i.t. guy and said wait, where there be pictures. how long will they last. and possibly that attempt to flood the storage room. so they've got that for starters. and then evan corcoran, who was first hoodwinked by not a and, trump once he understand what's going, on he will be the other witness. some of it is circumstantial, but i think it's pretty strong. and given, by the way, not a has a very high powered criminal defense attorney. not what you would think normally for a valet. which is what he was. and the trump folks are paying for it. so sort of like weisselberg,

they have a strong case against him. not an overwhelming one against trump. if now to insist on playing it that way. >> sadie, quickly, any sense of whether the mood has changed after the unsealing of the indictment? did two lawyers quoting surprise you? >> it wasn't to me a surprise as someone who covered trump's legal perils for years. we often see him shaking up his legal team as things progress. but he is on the hunt for new lawyers who can handle this case in florida. but this event, in particular, is not surprising. but also, what isn't surprising, is the fact that it deceased on this quickly as a fundraising effort. he is encouraging his supporters to make contributions to him in light of what he calls an election interference. so same playbook, in my opinion. >> yes, okay, just different circumstances perhaps. harry lippman, city government,

good to see you both. coming up next, the new cries of a double standard when it comes to donald trump. trump. trump. the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz] you can always spot a first timer. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

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tonight, trying to take out their number one opponent for the presidency of the united states in 2024. and they have one standard for donald trump, and another standard for everybody else. every once held to a different standard but donald trump. and that is wrong, and i do believe tonight that joe biden just secured donald trump's nomination for republicans in 2024. >> we are back with the breaking news, that sentiment, we heard from nancy mace, it is growing among house republicans as they accuse the doj of being weaponized after trump was federally indicted. joining me now is the congressman, steven horsford, a democratic member of the house financial services and armed services committee. welcome back to the broadcast. what do you, sir, say two congresswoman mace and others who feel that way?

is the doj just following an investigation that it believes led to crimes? here's the question, wouldn't the doj still be indicting trump even if he wasn't a candidate? >> well, first, thank you for having me on. i just want to say the administration, president biden, and others, haven't done anything. this is an independent when grand jury who was called together, evidence provided, they are the ones who have made the termination to move forward on 37 serious charges against the former president. it is actually very disingenuous and not accurate to blame the current administration or anyone involved that's not how the system works. and they know it. and they are misleading the american people. >> well said there, but with regards to the way this has been politicized, again, you

know, you heard jack smith saying no one is above the law. the fact that donald trump happens to be a candidate for president, though, we, how much does that factor into jack smith's thinking? he's been described as a political, a registered independent. if donald trump were not running for president again, wouldn't he still be charged with these crimes? >> we let's take a step back. i don't quite understand why we are defending a former president regardless of who he is based on the serious nature of the charges against him. i don't care who he is, it is on lawful, to take with federal property, some of which is highly classified and appears to be secret in nature, that deals with the department of defense, her new color codes

and those of other foreign governments. we really should only be asking, what is the damage? the risk and the level of insecurity that the former president places us in, because of those documents that were taken illegally. and now these charges are brought forward. i have trust in the win criminal justice system. and no, no one is above the law. including a former president of the united states. >> you know, donald trump faces charges of willful retention of national defense information under the espionage act. also false statements and representations. can you put in perspective how significant the charges are for former president? granted we are in uncharted territory with donald trump. by the, way we look at video we just captured of the former president landing in georgia. it will be addressing a very mega friendly crowd shortly.

thoughts on that? >> if it were anyone else, they would be locked up and be serving time right now. and that is why these charges are very serious. with the former president is deemed innocent until proven guilty. these are charges. and i have trust that the system will move forward, but based on the nature of the seriousness of the allegations against the president, they are very troubling and the impact or national security and our defense around the world has been put at risk. republicans really should be ashamed trying to defend the former president, rather than speaking up for the national security interests of our nation. >> before we let you go, sir, i want to know -- right now you're speaking to meet with the -- black history museum in chicago. we can see the sign right behind you. that is where you and several other congressional black

congress makers are holding a summer of action event. tell us more about what's going on there? we >> thank, you i'm so honored to be here with members of the congressional black caucus, along with the congressional black institute. this is one in a series of summer of action defenses that we're doing around democracy towards the people. we know we had a good decision that came out of the u.s. supreme court last week. unfortunately that decision upheld what it was we were saying all along, which is that there are districts that are unconstitutional and discriminatory, that have been used to deny each and everyone are right to vote, it disproportionately effects the black community. our democracy, for the people, is centered on three, things making sure that we protect our fundamental right to vote, through education, through voter registration, as well as helping to organize and educate local communities.

i want to thank representative, robin kelly, and all of the members of the congressional black caucus as well as the cbc institute for bringing us here, which to this black history museum, and education center. because we understand that without our fundamental right to, vote there are no other rights. >> amen to that. congressman, good to see, you thank you so much for your time, enjoy your day there. coming up, next we're going to talk about this headline, trump indictment thrust biden into unprecedented territory. what other choice did the doj have and how might the fallout ripple across the country? in one direction or another. we one direction or another. we one direction or another. we actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works.

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republicans. joining me now is charles, blow msnbc political analyst and new york times columnist, welcome, charles, before we get into the political implications of, this can i just gave your reaction to trump's indictment? >> we well, you know, i'm in the camp of saying about time. trump has for his entire life gotten away with skirting the law, breaking the rules, spending the rules. believing that he was above the law. in this particular case, he is being charged with very serious crimes, and the indictment, at least, reads in a very compelling way, he would -- like any other american, innocent until proven guilty. but it reads in a very damning and compelling way. >> it's quite clear, quite concise as well for those who might want to take a look at it. and read it for themselves. that, said the doj is already facing backlash from

republicans. calling this a case of weaponization of the federal agency. but realistically, did the doj have a choice in the matter? does appear that indicting trump was their only option? as they followed the facts. >> they found evidence of a crime, they don't have a choice. but the more important thing to remember here is that donald trump learned early on that he can force through crisis. this is not about the doj's choices, it's about donald trump's choices. he jumped into the race very early, he knew if he became a candidate, and he did well as he is doing, now he becomes the front runner, it will calls it a crisis. january six, he forced a crisis. this is part of what he wants to do with america, he doesn't mind breaking this country. as long as it helps him preserve his fortune, or his liberty. and that's what he's doing. here so i don't think we should put the onus on the doj.

we biden doesn't have a choice. whether they're in unprecedented. airtight donald trump put them in the position, this nicely for this reason. so that they will have -- attacks on people who support donald trump. >> so donald trump forcing the crisis. could this indictment further divide our already fractured country? what could be the consequences? >> >> we listen, the country is divided because a large portion of the country -- republicans are not half the country. but a large portion of the country wants to believe a lie. so they're being told, ally they want to believe, it and in the same way that there was evidence for donald trump, with the election was stolen, that he lost, fairly that information was available to the american people as well. people wanted to believe this lie because they want not to have lost. so there is very little that we can do other than present with

facts and a common deliberative way. these are those. facts will you accept them or will you? not if people don't want to accept them. it's no longer anybody's responsibility to, say you've lost, you must believe the truth. at that, point you just have to follow the. truth you have to stand in the truth. you have to believe that the truth will win at the end of the day. >> yes, charles, let me ask you quickly about what is happening at the white house with the president hosting a major pride month event? the administration, as you, know rolling out a string of new initiatives to support the lgbtq community amid a wave of anti lgbtq laws in states across the country. your latest op-ed, you say these bills are part of a state emergency. can you explain that? what is the white house reaction? >> there are hundreds of bills that have been introduced,'s -- 70 plus of them have already become law. there are other sitting on governors desks, they are likely going to be signed into law. this is unprecedented.

this scale of the legislation is unprecedented in the civil -- not civil rights, the lgbtq rights,. it is civil rights. so it's a state of emergency. the most disappointing part is that we know that this is the playbook. you take -- an extreme example, and you try to use that and ride that to oppress a whole group of people. ronald reagan did it by finding of a welfare queen. he says this is all the people, we need to deal with this in this way. bush did it with billy horton -- we see it again with trans people in america. >> thus, your editorial. thank you so much, charles, for that. that does it for me on this edition. i'll see you tomorrow at one pm eastern. yasmin fussy again contenders the coverage. yasmin fussy again contender the coverage