whole weaponization thing, just read it. it's 45 pages. not that complicated. >> it's espionage, right? the espionage act. it's very serious. all right eaves, hansen, snowden, right? these are the same type of people -- >> you don't have to listen to -- >> that's right. >> this is one of those things, you can actually do it for yourself. it was a well written indictment,and i ran for everyone, so you want to download it you can do it that way. thanks to both of you. amazing having about here. dave graham, thanks for your great writing this week. staff writer at the atlantic. tara setmayer, senior adviser for the lincoln project. all right, some breaking news just outside of philadelphia, a truck fire under the i-95 on ramp. look at this. it's caused part of the roadway above it to collapse. officials have told nbc news they are still on the scene investigating, not been able to get under the thousands of pounds of steel and debris yet to search for the driver. aside from derive the truck, officials do not believe anyone else is trapped, no injuries have been reported. that is the northbound lanes of

i-95, the highway remains closed in both directions to traffic, firefighters are trying to extinguish an ongoing fire that you can see there, we will bring you more on the updates as soon as we get them on the story. straight ahead, we are going to miami for a report on what to expect ahead of trump's arraignment on tuesday. plus, the twice impeached now twice indicted president, is telling his followers that the justice department is not just coming after him, it's coming after them to. i'm going to talk to the person who literally wrote the book on authoritarian strongman about his dangerous line of attack, another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. good morning, i'm ali velshi, in today's trump suspected to surrender himself to authorities in a miami courthouse where he will be arraigned on a 37 count indictment regarding his mishandling of government records and obstruction of justice. it will be the second time in

about two months that the twice impeached former president is going to see the inside of a courtroom to face criminal charges himself, after managing to evade serious legal responsibility literally for decades. pfizer piddly denied any wrongdoing in this particular matter, he expected to plead not guilty on tuesday. but the indictment, which was unsealed by authorities on friday, provides a detailed account of trump's alleged months-long effort to obstruct justice and hold on to scores of boxes containing classified documents, and other records that properly belong to the federal government. he's already been indicted by the manhattan district attorney alvin bragg in the stormy daniels hush money case, and there are still pending investigations in georgia, and in washington d.c., related to his effort to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. so, there's a possibility that trump could be in the -- the defendant in multiple criminal trials, as we look at voters head to the polls for next year's primaries. and in a new interview with politico yesterday, trump vowed

to stay in the race, even if he's convicted of a crime, telling the reporter, quote, i will never leave. that's not surprising at all, he's previously vowed to continue campaigning for the republican nomination if he were indicted, a threshold that we've already crossed twice now. the majority of republican party is actually coming to trump's defense, and criticizing the justice system instead. but there have been some notable exceptions including trump's former attorney general bill barr, who just spoke about the indictment moments ago. >> i think the counts under the espionage act that he will fully retain those documents, are solid counts. now, i do think we have to wait and see what the defense says, and what proved to be true, but i do think that if even half of it is true, he's toast. >> meanwhile trump was back on the campaign trail, he took the state of the gop convention in georgia and north carolina

yesterday just two days after he was informed of his second indictment. joining him on the road throughout the day was walt nauta, his personal valet. you can see him in the bottom left there. he is now codefendants by the way in the special counsels classified documents case, walt nauta himself is facing six charges for both -- helping former president obstruct justice. during a speech in north carolina yesterday, trump's immunogenicity results of the 2020 election, he aired out all his favorite grievances, he made remarks on his latest indictment while railing once again against the justice system. >> you get indicted over nothing. you get indicted over the presidential records act, which they don't even admit, they call it the espionage act? [laughter] these are sick people. these criminals cannot be rewarded, they must be defeated, we must defeat them soundly. in the, and they are not coming after me, they are coming after you, and i'm just standing in

their way. >> for the very latest, let's go now to nbc news justice correspondent candy lanny and, he's in miami this morning. can, what can you tell us about -- >> well, i can tell you that some of the rhetoric that the former president engaged in yesterday who has really disturbs some law enforcement officials we are talking to who are very worried about the security situation here. they are watching for signs of large demonstrations, january 6th style rowdy crowds that could descend on this place. and then they are also very concerned about lone extremists who sees on this kind of rhetoric that the justice system is corrupt, and that the fbi is coming after not just trump but you, you people that support me. all it takes are one or two people that take that rhetoric seriously and try to come down here and commit violence. so the federal marshals have

issued a statement saying that they are taking the responsibility of protecting the federal judicial process. they are ensuring that judges can rule independently free from harm or intimidation, that is paramount to the rule of law, and fundamental to the mission of the march services. they say they don't discuss security measures, but they are doing everything they can to keep everybody involved in this process safe. and remember, the magistrate judge who signed the mar-a-lago search warrant got death threats. so they are taking this very very seriously, on tuesday, we expect a dramatic historic scene here. mr. trump is going to turn himself in to be processed, both by the federal marshals and the fbi. they will take his fingerprints, they may take two separate sets of fingerprints. the marshals take a mugshot. his posse passport will be confiscated. these are agencies that used to hang his portrait on the wall, now he is turning themselves into face justice at those very federal agencies. >> a couple days between now and, then locks can happen. thank you my friend, ken

dilanian for us in miami. let's bring in ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at nyu. she is the author of -- the very important book strongman, mussolini to the president. ruth, you and i were just talking yesterday evening, i'm actually very surprised about how much has developed since then. but it's sunday morning, so a lot of politicians and people who are running against trump have gone on tv this morning. i want to talk about that a little bit, what they've been saying, but i also want to go back to last night. what we are on tv together, donald trump was speaking. at his appearances yesterday, he continued to air his grievances, he really handsome partner justice here in just a little bit of what he said. >> we don't have the audio, but he said, the basis indictment of me weaponize department of justice in justice, he said, will go down as the most horrific abuses of power in the history of our country. i think it already is, when you think about, and certainly going back to obama, what i said, they spied on my campaign,

everybody including the fake news media back then said oh that's so crazy. turned out i was right. the vicious persecution is a travesty of justice. you are watching joe biden tried to jail his leading political opponents. think about it. this is like third world country stuff. i want you to evaluate this, because to me and several of my viewers, it sounds like nonsense. but it's actually very effective and pointed, in what he's trying to achieve. >> absolutely. he's got all his greatest hits there. i do want to say, before you played the clip of him saying i'll never leave, and she was directing that to his followers yesterday to refresh the bonds of loyalty and love. they think he loves them. but i'll never leave -- if he gets back into power, he will never leave. that is very clear. because, like all authoritarians, he needs to get back into power because he's so corrupt, and shut down all

investigations. so what he was saying, the thing you read, they had his victimhood, which is very important, people relief of this because he's not just a brute, he's not just the defender of the nation, he's also vulnerable. people love him for this. they feel they need to protect him. and then you have, of course, the weaponization -- this is a talking point. and the gop, as you know, they are an autocratic party, i feel. operating within a democracy. they have talking points, just like the kremlin does. and we've seen everybody use the same language about the weaponization of government. jim jordan even has a sham set subcommittee, that's a damage control. anything that gets too close to exposing them in their complicity has to be shut down by this committee. so, he is all his greatest hits, and that's what his adoring audience expects of him. and that's how propaganda

works. >> you said several times, what you just said about the rub again party being complicit in this whole thing. i never know whether to use kari lake as a prime example or an outlier, she ran for governor of arizona, she's probably one of the four most election deniers in the country. but here's what she said on friday. i want you to evaluate this one with me. >> i have a message tonight. for merrick garland, and jack smith, and joe biden. and the guys back there, if they can hear me. he should listen up as well, this ones for you. if you want to get to president, trump you will have to go through me, and you will have to go through 75 million americans just like me. [applause] and i'm going to tell you, most of us are card-carrying members of the nra. [applause] [crowd chanting] that's not a threat, that's a public service announcement.

[laughter] >> i thought i wasn't being shocked by kari lake, but that last sentence, most of us are card-carrying is at the nra? that's not a threat, that's a public service announcement? >> okay! this is a public service announcement because the main thing authoritarians have to do, and trump started using his rallies in 2015 to do this, is change the perception of violence in the public. so that what was once reprehensible, like shooting your neighbor, or watching them be carted off by the secret police, now becomes okay. and even assaulting the capitol becomes a patriotic act. and there's huge investment, resources, and propaganda. these thugs that have been in prison for january 6th are now political prisoners. but here we have kari lake, and quit higgins, they are trying

to use the indictment to have, what i call, a second wave of the insurrection. and it's highly dangerous. that's why ken dilanian was talking about that federal officials are so worried. they want this. it has become a public service to be violent. on behalf of the leader who is in distress. this is authoritarian culture of. i don't have to say how dangerous it is. >> standby, i want to continue this after a quick break, but quick no first. you have heard the highlights from smith's indictment of trump, i urge you to read it for yourself. it's not a very big read. it's about 45 pages. it tells the full story, and scope, of the crimes that are charged. now, if, understandably, you don't have time to read 44 pages, i'm done for you. you can listen to the indictment, word for word, went by me, candace q r code right now for msnbc's prosecuting donald trump podcast. you can also find it wherever

you get your podcasts. it is available right no, we will be right back, with ruth on the other side of this. side of this. and the results are in. subaru is the twenty twenty-three best mainstream automotive brand, according to consumer reports. and subaru has seven consumer reports recommended models. solterra, forester, outback, crosstrek, ascent, impreza, and legacy. it's easy to love a brand you can trust. it's easy to love a subaru.

he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. baby i hear one every night... every night. okay. i'll work on that. the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $899.

save $200. plus, 48-month financing on all beds. shop now only at sleep number. (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. ♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. the #1 pharmacist recommended like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only 30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. no wonder xfinity mobile is one of the fastest growing mobile services. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com. >> i think donald trump is

stronger today, politically, than he was before. i think the espionage charges are ridiculous. and i think what happened to hillary clinton where she got away with, it is very similar to what happened to the president. it will happen -- we will have an election and trial, but i promise you this, most americans believe most republicans believe that the law is used as a weapon against donald trump. >> republican senator lindsey graham just had to go on abc news, the same guy here in the immediate wake of january six that enough is enough. the same guy who said that donald trump is not fit to be president. ruth ben-ghiat, and what you professor of history is back with me. ruth, lindsey graham is a one-man study in what authoritarians can achieve. this is a guy who hated donald

trump, he ran against him, he told the world that trump is unfit to be president. he criticized trump on january 6th, and now he's talking about the weaponization of government against donald trump. >> yes, he even -- i have a photo of it somewhere -- he even had himself photographed watching trump on television, and this is -- there's a whole sean roth artery an art called watching the leader on television or video or listening to the radio on the radio. lindsey graham is one of the saddest and most significant cases, because before trump, there was some kind of bipartisan consensus about national security. the two parties deferred hugely on domestic things, but with some exceptions, everyone, lindsay included, were committed to two national security. graham also pro military, now, with the gop being an

autocratic party in the service of trump, who is allied with people who want to bring the united states down, i'm going to say this carefully, the gop no longer, and i'm referring to putin, no longer has the same understanding or commitment, to national security. and we can see many things going on in that light. the demonization of the fbi. the stance they are taking on ukraine. and it's a very grave and sad thing to say, but this is why jack smith, when he read about the indictment, when he spoke about the indictment. for granted national security. it's not just that the documents that trump had put our nation at risk, it's that this party, which is backing him, now does not have the national security and safety of our country as its main

objective, because they are allied with people like putin who want to take us down. >> but how a fact -- donald trump was talking to a crowd of his supporters, which, in my opinion, seems to be dwindling -- the hard-core. some people walk away every time there's an indictment or a charge for the e. jean carroll thing. there is a. hard-core people who support him. what i -- at what point is start trickling down? i've not yet heard any of my conservative friends use the weaponization term yet, but it's now being used by every -- almost every elected republican has ports trump. how far before this type of nonsense, because you always talk about the fact that all you do is repeat it, and put it out on trump's social media site that nobody reads. but it gets around. how long until this becomes a thing. this isn't about stealing documents, this isn't about the espionage act, this isn't about paying off someone to win an election. this isn't about anything else, it's about the weaponization of

government? >> it's already trickled down, including judging from all the emails i get in the form of the slogan the biden regime. that marjorie taylor greene repeats, that fox news talks about all the time. that the democrats are the real tyrants. and biden is trying to shut down. and this started with covid, and masks and all of this. and that's how propaganda works. when you have a narrative, things that happened confirm your narrative, and the indictment, most of all. but it's really disturbing, of course, that they have been successful in getting average people to think that the real authoritarians are the democrats. and then benji pirro has a book on this, it's already trickled down in ways that people are understanding, but that's how you get to a point where january 6th, this violent coup attempt, becomes a patriotic act for freedom against

tyranny. >> ruth, thanks again for all your work, it's been a long haul for you the last few days. i think it's kind of a long haul for you a lot, for the last many years. ruth ben-ghiat is professor of history at new york anniversary, her book strongman, from easily need to the president, it's important reading, as is her newsletter, lucid. before accepting the role of jack smith special counsel, he was at the international criminal court prosecuting war crimes, a topic which is been at the forefront of the conversations regarding russia's actions in ukraine. coming up next, we're going to outline the growing number of war crimes being committed by russia in ukraine, plus the latest in ukraine's long anticipated counteroffensive, that is officially now underway. underway in the chase mobile® app. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach. from your first big move to retiring poolside and the other goals along the way

wealth plan can help get you there. j.p. morgan wealth management.

i'm adding downy unstopables to my wash now. i'll be smelling fresh all day long. [sniffs] still fresh. still fresh! get 6 times longer-lasting freshness, plus odor protection with downy unstopables. with a majority of my patience with sensitivity, i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. >> when you think about the things that you don't like about the trump administration, one of the biggest issues was that it sucked up all the oxygen in all the rooms all the time. and now that he's not president,

that still happens. there is still some news that's been lost due to the indictment of americas former president, that includes major developments in the war in ukraine. zelenskyy has publicly confirmed, during a meeting with the canadian prime minister, justin trudeau, that ukraine has officially begun its long anticipated counteroffensive that is the latest major effort to drive the russian invaders from the country. reports indicate fighting along several sections of the 600 mile long front line in the east, although there are conflicting reports as to how that fighting is actually going. russia says it's fought back, and repelled the attacks, while ukraine's otherwise, that it's broken through several russian positions. british ministry of defence reports that russia's performance has been mixed, and that, quote, in some areas, ukrainian forces have likely made good progress and penetrated the first lines of russian defenses. while in other locations, ukrainian progress has been slower, and quote. this comes as ukraine continues to deal with the catastrophic

humanitarian social and economic consequences of the destruction of the covid dam, which the u.s. and russian officials believe was a delivered attack by russian forces. here you see the dam. joining me now is the retired u.s. army colonel, yevgeny vindman, he's a former deputy legal adviser for the national security council where his portfolio included nato, and the international criminal court. he's also been advising the ukrainian government on war crimes investigations, colonel vindman, good to see you, thanks for being with us today. you have actually spent the week, while the rest of us were dealing with this indictment, you have spent the week with the russian -- sorry, ukrainian prosecutor general, and other ukrainians, who are looking towards the end of this war. the rest of us are looking at this counteroffensive, they are looking toward the end of the war. because the next step is going to be something that looks like justice. and the first part of that is going to involve war crimes. >> absolutely.

first, thanks for having me, great to be on your show. >> pleasure. >> it's been a busy week for me, and a busy week for accountability, frankly, in the u.s., and also on the ukrainian war crimes side. we had a group of 13 folks who visited d.c. and to the extent that official washington can roll out the red carpet, that's exactly what we had. they are were meeting with the fbi department of defense, we spent all day with the carbonate offense, meetings with the hail, bipartisan group of congressman. and senate staff. and then the department of state and department of justice, and this group quickly got to we're talking about things, including the attack on the dam, which, frankly, if you think about it, and i think you said this right. the destruction of -- that we are going to see here, and we are seeing in our early stages, is probably that of a weapon of mass destruction. there are entire villages and

towns that have been submerged, they have become unlivable, the agricultural areas in those areas are going to be years of effects recovering. and so this is a major economic, ecological, and frankly, humanitarian disaster, caused by the russians. whether it has any military value at all is yet to be seen. but, absent some clear demonstration, this is a war crime, and potentially a crime against humanity. >> that's a really important point. i'm glad you mentioned. and people say what's a war crime? isn't a more terrible? shouldn't everything be a crime? there are delineations. if something does not have military or strategic value and you target civilians, even if you target soldiers, if they surrender, their hands are, out there on arms, to shoot them, that's what crime. there are rules in this thing. ukraine there been 80,000 cases registered since the war began of war crimes. so let's talk about some

specifics. april 2022, more than 400 bodies of civilians were found in bucha, a ten on the outskirts of kyiv. in september 2022, 450 bodies mostly civilians found in mass graves in izium, in eastern ukraine. russian troops are being accused of committing more than 400 war crimes in kherson while it was under occupation from march november 2022. what happens next. this is a lot of material. and a lot of evidence. what's the infrastructure for getting to the bottom of the and are we worried about the infrastructure at low levels or are you looking for russian leadership? >> so the short answer is that the ukrainians are looking for accountability. they're looking for accountability at the highest levels. this group that i'm working with, the group that was visiting washington and a visiting -- visits other capitals in other locations is primarily focused on building cases the, military

analysis on senior military leadership. of course, -- minister of defense and -- who is the equivalent of the chairman of joint staff. but also the senior political leadership. these cases are being built. they're being worked kind of like a conspiracy prosecution. where you start and medium to lower levels and you build cases all the way up the chain. ultimately hold those folks responsible. most responsible for terrible crime of oppression to account. whether that's in ukrainian accords at some of the lower levels. some sort of hybrid international tribunal which is being discussed. it's certainly the object here. to your point, war is a terrible occurrence. that's obvious. there are rules.

those roles have been developed over the course of decades and centuries. everybody, every country in the world including russia has signed up to things like the geneva convention which bans attacks on non military objects. civilian objects and civilians. and there are rules. the attack on the kakhovka was heinous because that's inherently dangerous objects. much like a nuclear power plant. at the very least, there should have been no precautions and warnings for civilians. and certainly a great deal more planning on whether something like this should take place. on its face, from what i am seeing, this certainly is worthy of being investigated and most likely will be proven to be a war crime in the future. >> colonel, you've and i've been talking about all this week before there was indictment. last night in donald trump speech, he implied that 31

charges that he's faced under the espionage act are really about the presidential records act. ironically, you were the lawyer at the white house who was responsible for overseeing compliance with the presidential records act. donald trump is claiming that under the presidential records act, what he did take in those documents keeping those documents was totally fine. >> it's absolutely false. i will say i was not at the white house during the transition administration because as you recall i was fired right after -- donald trump was acquitted. two days after he was acquitted. i was in charge of compliance with the presidential active records act. the records act is really crystal clear that those records belong to the federal government. they belong to the american people. they don't belong to the president. the president can control some access. get this to the side for certain here's a time what's released. but those records belong to the american people. he knew that.

everybody at the white house knew that. i certainly during my time everybody a brief which was everybody on the national security council staff knew that. there is zero question in anybody's mind who worked at the white house who those records belong to, what the obligations for. and frankly, he will be held accountable. this is an easy case. did he have the records? yes was he not supposed to have them, yes. he will be held accountable. >> colonel, look at to see. thank you for joining us. retired enis and army colonel yevgeny venomous of former deputy league adviser for the national security council. we got breaking news in the northeast. a section of i-95 has collapsed outside of the philadelphia. we'll bring in the latest next on velshi. i'm coming out of hibernation after the best nap of my life... and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler.

oh, cheddar! i've got hot dog buns! and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. roar. (sfx: family screams in background)

(vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. oh booking.com, ♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah. >> turning out some breaking news just as a philadelphia where a truck fire burning under an on ramp on i-95 has caused part of the roadway

above it to collapse. officials say they've not been able to get under the wreckage to search for the driver of the truck. he highway remains closed traffic as firefighters try to put out the ongoing fire. join me now from the scene at nbc news correspondent george soliz. george, are there. that's a busy, busy, busy stretch of road. what can you tell us about the incident the driver of the truck in any injuries? >> good morning, ali. it's going to be a lengthy investigation. you can see behind me, a number of first responders there are -- some of the rubble through -- we may have lost you there. if i'm back -- >> or using other video. it may just be the video is taking up too much face. kill your video and keep talking. >> this investigation just unfolding. so the heavy machinery is expected to get here momentarily. begin sifting through some

venerable as you mentioned. large truck fire underneath this over underpass here. collapsing a portion of nine 95. the other side of it compromised as well. this is gonna create a traffic nightmare for drivers. this is a main artery in and out of philadelphia. right now there are some environmental concerns as there were still concerns over an hour from whatever exploded under the overpass there. as well as some of the traffic that's being rerouted here. right now, i don't if you can see. through some of the video there. this is dramatic. i mean you have -- it's seldom we see something like this. investigators to figure out what's underneath that caused this explosion. they're trying to determine if there were any injuries at this time. since they have not been able to get underneath all that rubble at this time. we are expecting another press briefing from fire officials and first responders sometime in the noon hour to give us an update on what they found. we do know, again, heavy machinery is expected to start to sift through some of the rubble. disregarded be closed for sometime. officials saying that roadway

is completely gone. we can only imagine this is gonna take weeks if not months to repair. we're also told that secretary pete buttigieg has been we've done is offering assistance to the philadelphia and state to begin repairing this road ali. lots to come. this is a developing story here. >> those are remarkable images. thanks for staying on it for. us will come back to you. george soliz for us in philadelphia where a portion of i-95 has collapsed after a truck fire underneath it. the judge set to oversee the start of donald trump's time in court was appointed by none other than donald trump. what else do we know about judge aileen cannon and what should we expect come tuesday? ct come tuesday? - how'd you get here? - kayak! they compared hundreds of travel sites to find a great deal on my flight, car, and hotel. - kayak. search one and done.

(vo) when someone is diagnosed with cancer, they need support. subaru and our retailers are there to help... by providing blankets for comfort and warmth and encouraging messages of hope to help support nearly three hundred thousand patients facing cancer nationwide. we call it “the subaru love promise.” and we're proud to be the largest automotive donor to the leukemia and lymphoma society. subaru. more than a car company.

(man) what if my type 2 diabetes takes over? (woman) what if all i do isn't enough? or what if i can do diabetes differently? (avo) now you can with once-weekly mounjaro. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar,

and mounjaro can help decrease how much food you eat. 3 out of 4 people reached an a1c of less than 7%. plus people taking mounjaro lost up to 25 pounds. mounjaro is not for people with type 1 diabetes or children. don't take mounjaro, if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop mounjaro, and call your doctor right away, if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, vision changes, or diabetic retinopathy. serious side effects may include pancreatitis and gallbladder problems. taking mounjaro with sulfonylurea or insulin raises low blood sugar risk. tell your doctor if you're nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. side effects include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea which can cause dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. (woman) i can do diabetes differently with mounjaro. (avo) ask your doctor about once-weekly mounjaro. with a majority of my patience with sensitivity, i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity,

helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. >> judge aileen cannon will be overseeing the criminal case against donald trump for the time being. elise's point to know who she is and who understand the curious context surrounding her assignment of the case. cannon was nominated by donald trump. to serve on the federal bench in the southern district of florida in 2020. confirmed she stays after donald trump lost the 2020 election. her name sounds familiar to you, it's probably because she recently made headlines with the decision that shocked of legal experts across the political spectrum and somewhat mired her in some reputational damage. back in september, she temporarily blocked investigators from accessing the material that was discovered at mar-a-lago.

and then granted donald trump's request to assign a special master to the mar-a-lago case to go through the documents that he didn't want anybody else seeing. her actions garnered widespread criticism with one harvard law school professor calling her decision to allow a special master review quote deeply problematic. another do university law school professor saying quote, this ruling is laughably bad and the written justification easy even flimsy year end quote. the justice department appealed the special master appointment and eventually a panel of judges from the 11th circuit court of appeals overruled judge cannon and shut down the special master's and -- intervention. who is judge cannon? how is that she's a key figure in this case for a second time? judge cannon was born in columbia, she was raised in miami. she's 42 years old. just barely meets the american bar association's minimum length of experience after graduating law school to even qualify for her position. she's been a member the conservative federalist society

since 2005 and in the days since her appointment to this case, there have been questions about how judge cannon ended up on the case and whether or not she would remain on the case at all. just last, night a chief clerk confirmed to the new york times that judge cannon would remain on the case unless she recuse herself. that same clerk also said normal procedures were followed in the assignment of the case. i want to talk more about the assignment of judge cannon and the logistic of the trial might play out for the former united states attorneys carroll lamp and joyce vance. they're gonna join me after the break. break. liyour car insurance...es so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need.

♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone. when this medicine is used with an inhaled corticosteroid, like in trelegy, there is not a significant increased risk of these events. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase risk of thrush and infections. get emergency care for serious allergic reactions. see your doctor if your asthma does not improve or gets worse. ♪ what a wonderful world. ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for asthma -

because breathing should be beautiful. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game. not a game! we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're not talking about practice? we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long. -word. -no practice. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. i mean, we're not talking about a game! cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. when it comes to your hair, ingredients matter. that's why herbal essences is packed with naturally derived plant ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you don't. our sulfate-free collections smell incredible... ♪ and leave your hair touchably soft and smooth. ♪

herbal essences as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network, with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to 75% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. >> joining me now is carole comcast business. powering possibilities™.

lamb, former speaker court judge in san diego county, formulates's attorney and msnbc legal analyst and joyce vance, former giannis's attorney msnbc contributor and co-host of the podcast sisters and law. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us. choiceland, east hardwick how aileen cannon got chosen. there is a -- charlie savage for this for the new york times last night. there are new describe something called a wheel. the clerk was explaining to charlie that this is fairly -- it was a fairly random process. there's a reason why aileen cannon had a better chance of getting this case. it's not directly tied to the fact that she dealt with the matter beforehand. >> that's right, the important

thing to say here is that there is nothing nefarious involved in her selection. no monkey business one on. judges are assigned a cases based on what we call the wheel. that's because in earlier days, there literally was a wheel with judges names on it at the clerk's office spun around to decide who to sign. now there is a more sophisticated computer program. why the decision i think it's complicated is because there are divisions inside of every federal district court. this district in southern florida has a number of them. there are complicated rules for which judges are eligible for a selection. essentially, that ended up in this case meaning that judge cannon was one of seven. who could be called upon and the calculation is a little bit complicated. the program tries to make of the work loads better for senior judges retire judges who continue to sort out a voluntary basis. bottom line here, she was

selected fair and square. whether you like that are not. >> carol, you think this special master thing that she did that she's been getting into some ottawa turf or is a veteran herring. you are not too concerned about that. tell me why. >> it's a red herring in the sense that it's not a basis for the judge to recuse herself. it's not a basis for jack smith and his team to bring a motion for her to recuse herself when a judge is reversed overturned by the appellate court. that's in the natural course of how the judicial process works. it's not that i don't think there's anything to be concerned about. from jack smith perspective, he got up in front of the nation and he said there are laws that apply to everybody. and everybody subject to the laws equally. aileen cannon in her opinions back during the search warrant had a little bit of a different view. she said things like the stigma

associated with this search because donald trump is a former president is an order of magnitude different from anybody else. she used terms like that. she perhaps spends over backwards a little bit for the former president of the united states and how that's going to play out in the course of a trial. in the events leading up to a trial remains to be seen. >> your prosecutors. joyce, tell me how that can play out. if there is a sense that the judge may be favorable towards the defendant. one of the ways in which that plays out in a trial like this? >> i have a slightly different view from my good friend carole here. i think that of the standard in the 11th circuit which is a little bit squishy. essentially it says that a judge should recuse their participation in the case will undermine public confidence in the court system. that's not a standard that is

often applied. it's reserved for extraordinary types of situations. there are a couple of ways that judges leave texas. what if they voluntarily recuse and the other is that there is the challenge to a decision that they've made in an appellate court orders that the case be reassigned. i think judge cannon here after consulting with some of her colleagues which judges often do in difficult situations. she might want to say look, i'm confident that i can handle this case fairly but i'm deeply concerned that the public should be able to have confidence in these proceedings. to avoid any appearance of impropriety i'm going to step down. that might mean that the case would be handled by another trump appointee. this isn't about who appointed the judge. charges come from one president or another from a little political party. this is about how the public will view this case. the cause of her decisions in the earlier matter where the 11th circuit did not just reversed her. but they said she was out of bounds. that she lacked jurisdiction.

they moved extraordinarily quickly to prevent her from allowing trump to engage in delay. i think that alone might dampen her decision-making. but the judge who oversees the case has a lot of authority to make subtle decisions that don't necessarily come to public notice in time to impact the outcome of the case. she could impact the selection of jurors. she will rule on trial motions. he will rule on the admissibility of evidence. if she was the trial judge. the reality is in a case like this, the public won't have confidence whether she acquits or convicts. better to pass it on to another judge who doesn't have that kind of a track record here. >> carol, the court to talk to me that point that unless she recuse herself, she's likely to be the judge here. there's probably no one else who's gonna take action. give me a sense of what you think the likelihood is of that. she may not think that she's done anything wrong but she's going to understand that there is going to be a microscope on her by virtue of the fact that

she's got some history. >> choice and i agree on this. it is too that it may be the better course in a discretionary sense for judge cannon to take herself off the case. there are other reasons. she is in a courthouse that is the furthest north in the southern district of florida. there's only one judge in one magistrate in that courthouse. it's a small courthouse. there are metoo practical reasons why having a trial of this magnitude may be difficult in that location or maybe she would have to go to another courthouse that could better handle it. the point is that once a case is assigned to a judge, the decision whether or not that judges going to hear the case pretty much lies with that judge. if she decides that for any number of reasons she's not best suited to take that case of trial. she can go to the chief judge and say please reassigned into somebody else or perhaps it

goes back into the wheel as joyce says. and there are very few legal reasons why the judge would have to recuse it or somebody could forces up to be recused last choice points out, it is taken up to the circuit court and the circuit court comes down and commands it. that is extraordinarily rare and probably unlikely in this case. >> joyce, i work through this thing. it's a good read. i keep telling everybody please read it. it's just not a hard document. i have you found a respect for all you lawyers because it's a little bit hard. but i read it and i did a podcast over the week. just listen to. it there's a couple of pages here that seem to be just shy of certain things. it says here number four, this case will take -- a number of days for the parties to try. it says 21. that of course is that doesn't mean that this case is going to come anytime soon and that it'll start to finish between -- 21 days. i guess this is a perfunctory thing. but the judge can affect the timing of this case.

donald trump can sit there and say i'm running for president. i got places to be. i can release to be at. it's not impossible that donald trump can schedule a rally for every day that is any of his trials whatever beyond. a judge could delay this case. >> right, ali, i have to say how much i enjoy hearing the indictment right in your voice. i think it's great that you've made it possible for people to listen to this indictment while they're commuting to work or walking over the weekend. that's a real public service. this sort of thing points to exactly why people have concerns about judge cannon hearing this case. so much discretion is invested in the trial judge. this is a case that needs to be moved quickly. miami is a rocket docket. that means the judges here are known for strictly adhering to deadlines and moving their docket forward. you get under the speedy trial act 70 days from the time a defendant first appearance in court to take the case to trial. that happens in some relatively

routine cases. no one expects that that will happen here. but we need to avoid a judge who will unduly delay and that's the feeling. thank you to both of you, great to have you both. kara carroll, attorney for judge and msnbc analyst. -- a former -- and an msnbc contributor, and a columnist. please join us back seven day mourning from ten to noon eastern. a quick programming note, be sure to join my friend for a lead up to trump's arraignment on tuesday, seven pm eastern. first, stay right where you are with inside which of sake. it begins right now. >> the united states of america versus donald j trump. jack smith true speaks, the indictment is unsealed, and the former president promises to stay in the race even if he's convicted. former attorney general is standing by for a sunday