>> special coverage of the indictment of donald trump with jen psaki starts right now. >> welcome to a special live hour of the second indictment of donald trump. the former president will travel from new jersey to miami tomorrow. ahead of his arraignment on

tuesday. we've got all the details and what to expect and what to watch for this week. plus we will dive deep into the question of why, why was donald trump so hell-bent on holding on to these documents? alaska former deputy national security adviser been rose that question. also tonight, how concerned is the ranking democrat on the house intelligence committee about trump's reckless handling of our national security secrets? congressman jim hines joins me in just a few minutes. and later, a dividing line is forming between trump's republican opponents when it comes to the messaging around this indictment. a couple are calling him out but most sound more like his defense team than his rivals for the nomination. >> we on tuesday donald trump will be arraigned for the second time in three months. this time at a federal courthouse in miami you will be facing 37 federal criminal counts then include willful

retention of national defense information and conspiracy to obstruct justice. it's all in here in the indictment with that in which i encourage you to read. the agreement will likely look and sound pretty similar to naples arraignment manhattan. after traveling from new jersey to miami tomorrow to plead not guilty to the charges. and in the run up to his day in court donald trump is taking his usual combative stance. as he campaigned on saturday he gave the special counsel a little more to take a look at it. >> when i left office and was moving to florida boxes were openly sitting on the white house sidewalk, everybody was taking pictures of them. this isn't somebody smuggling boxes out. pictures of them you've all seen it sitting with people from gsa and other people waiting to put them on a truck. >> maybe doesn't know he has the right to remain silent, he

doesn't have to talk about these cases on the trail. meanwhile, the former presidents allies are trying to provide any cover they can ranging from thinly veiled or not so thinly veiled threats of violence to insisting that there is nothing to see here in this indictment so even pointing to hillary clinton's emails. yes those emails for many years ago but when it comes to the actual substance of the allegations they seem to be struggling to come up with a coherent defense. here is the chair of the house judiciary committee and close ally jim jordan earlier today. >> it's on tape as part of this indictment that he did not declassified the material therefore -- >> saying he could have, saying he could have is not saying the same as saying he didn't. >> he said now i can't -- >> he said now he has declassified this material. because he's not president now but when he was president -- >> which means that it's classified -- >> no, not when not if he

declassified it when he was president. >> but he is saying point blake in this audiotape that he did not declassified. what you are saying just doesn't make sense on the case. >> so it doesn't make too much logical sense, that's not even how classification works or declassification works. but it is indicative of what's to come because as this case moves forward in the coming days and weeks and even months we should anticipate that trump and his allies will likely do what they can to muddy the severity of the former presidents conduct. joining me now are two people who know what it's like to be inside the department of justice with a lot of eyes on you. . mary mccord is the acting assistant for the justice department for the obama administration and anthony coley is the -- we are really looking ahead to this week even with the last few days have been a bit of a whirlwind. what are you looking out for this week mary on tuesday? what do you expect to see in

the courtroom? >> so when is the official time for the court to advise the defendant of the charges against him. of course he's had the opportunity to see the indictment which was unsealed on friday. the court asks the defendant to enter a plea. and the defendant can say guilty or the defendant can say not guilty. i don't think i'm going out on a limb to say that this particular defendant will say not guilty. the judge will then make any kind of rulings which, with respect to conditions of him remaining at liberty pending a trial. some people are held and detained when there is a risk of flight or risk to public safety. or do expect that trump will be detained but there may be some restrictions on his traveling, he may be even required to tell the court when he is going to travel, particularly overseas. and there may be other restrictions. it's possible that the government, i expect, will start to talk about a protective order in order to be able to start sharing discovery

because so much of the discovery here is classified. >> and what about jack smith? do we expect to see him in the courtroom sitting at the table? >> i think it's likely just because this is such a significant prosecute shun but at least for the special appearance we will see jack smith there. but he's also leading another investigation. the investigation into the january 6th attack. >> he's a busy guy. >> and he certainly has other people who were qualified to do this. i expect there will be someone else there at least one more from his special counsel team and then probably someone also from the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of florida since that is their district where they know the judges. >> what about you anthony, what do you expect? are we going to hear jack smith's voice again what else are you expecting this week? >> the fact that we are all sitting here talking about this indictment right now makes me feel good about the process. you will recall we did not know thursday night when this news came out whether or not this indictment will be made public by the tuesday arraignment.

>> you call for them to unseal it. >> i'm glad they did. the recognition here is that yes they have an obligation to try to win this case in a court of law but by releasing this indictment on friday they also recognize the importance of winning over the court of public opinion. i'm glad they've taken that step. the facts here are so overwhelming. and from my vantage point it looks like they are just letting the facts speak for themselves. >> if you are advising the team, would check smith speak as our protocol? would he speak after the arraignment? when we expect to hear from him? >> i don't expect smith to speak after the arraignment. >> on wednesday or any point this week? >> i don't think so. this department and the attorney general was not overseeing this investigation on a daily basis. this attorney general has said we speak through our court filings. and i expect that is going to

happen. >> mary, i want to ask you because the inside the doj is kind of a mystery to most people. so with the status we are at at this point, what is happening in the department of justice now? jack smith and his team were walled off, essentially. are they now working with other members of the department of justice legal team? what is going on in the building right now? >> this remains an ongoing prosecution. so his appointment as special counsel continues through until there is a conviction or acquittal or a miss trial so that means merrick garland does still have ultimate authority here because special counsel functions independently but they also have obligations under the special counsel regulation to run up the flagpole significant decisions. that would even include during the case in the prosecution after we've had an indictment. certainly we've also included the indictment itself. so walled off is a little bit strong but i don't think now we've got certainly the

national security division -- i do think there will be someone at the southern district of florida signed the team. >> we've seen a little bit of the inklings of what the republican response is going to be. from house members like jim jordan, from kari lake, from others. part of it is delegitimizing department of justice going after prosecutors. there are certain traditions and protocols and department of justice and how do you combat that from a communication standpoint? >> the attorney general once told me that it's not enough to do justice, we have to appear to do justice. and at its core that is what disappointed objective and the special counsel was all about. smith is a career prosecutor. he is part of the permanent workforce of the department. he didn't come and go like we did as local appoint, political appointees -- >> i was not a political appointee, i didn't come and go. >> right, as you and i did.

he's part of the career workforce. it's important here for the attorney general back in november. he was president with disappointment. because he anticipated that these attacks would come from republican allies. republican allies of the president. so i think what's happened here is an overwhelming set of facts that prove at its core that base department was guided by what was ultimately -- what was ultimately right. >> mary, a big question out there right now it's about the judge aileen cannon who we learned the reporting issue would have to recuse herself in order to not be the one overseeing the case. i had spoke this morning with the former attorney general about this. i want to play a clip of that and then talk to you about it on the other hand. >> i'm concerned about her

handling this case. what has been most concerned is the ability that she would have to delay this proceeding. the amount of time that she gives both sides to file pretrial motions, the ability that she would have ruined objections during the course of the trial. the way in which she would conduct the -- there is a whole range of ways in which she could have a negative impact on the case. >> so part of the big issue here, one of the issues is that she was appointed by the current defendant. so do you agree with what the attorney general said and how do you prepare as a prosecutor in that scenario? >> i agree with eric holder that one of the big dangers here is her ability to control the schedule. and she can say there's no way we can get this to travel for 2025 she wants to do that. the government can object -- i don't think the fact that she is a trump appointee is a problem, we have plenty of trump appointees out there but i think approach their jobs

exactly like you would expect any judge to approach a job. i think was troubling here is the ruling she made in the selection would have to the execution of the search warrant. rulings that she made denying the department of the opportunity to review the classified information that they had seized pursuant to court order and appointing a special master and really making rulings that the 11th circuit found were so outside -- that they reversed her not once but twice. this reverses, to trump appointed judges on that circuit. my concern is she just, whether that was biased or she is just not very legally smart i don't know. but that's my concern. i will tell you. she knows what happened in the past. and it's quite possible she will bend over backwards to restore some of that reputation. this remains to be seen. jack smith and the doj team

knew that when they filed this down the southern district and check that box, west palm beach, that this case was going to go on a wheel of potential judges which is going to be a pretty small number, the odds were pretty decent that she might get this case. >> mary mccord, anthony luckily, i was a pressure, they can be joining me this evening. you can listen to the new episode of mary's excellent podcast with andrew weissmann prosecuting donald trump whenever you, wherever you get your podcasts. -- msnbc anchor and ali velshi reading the entire trump indictment. ben rhodes on why donald trump may have seen so much value on these classified documents. plus congressman jim hines has some thoughts about the violent rhetoric he's hearing from his republican colleagues. and here, it probably shouldn't be this hard to -- these are not normal times, we're just getting started this hour and we will be right back after a quick break. k break.

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latest developments on the indictment of donald trump, it's important to remember this case is not just about documents stored in ballrooms and bathrooms. it's about a national security. just the third paragraph of this 49-page indictment makes that clear. it says, and i quote, the classified documents trump stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states and foreign countries. unites states nuclear programs vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to military attack. and plans for possible retaliation and response to foreign attack. the unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the united states foreign, relations, our elation ships with key partners, the safety of the united states military, human sources we rely on around the world.

now, there are lots of reasons trump could've held on to these documents. maybe it was leverage, maybe he had a bone to pick with someone who once worked for him. maybe was bragging rights. maybe he held on to them and then obstructed the governments efforts to retrieve them because he wanted to share them. we don't know yet what his motive was. we will learn more as this case is litigated through the court system. the possibility is quite challenging, given his praise for dictators like vladimir putin and his ties to authoritarian countries, financially like saudi arabia. joining me now, someone i have been calling back to my days of the state department spokesperson tell me understand what is happening in the world and why it matters. he's the perfect person to break down the what, the y of the trump indictments. former deputy national security adviser, president obama and my friend and ben rhodes. hello, ben, thank you for doing this with me today. >> hello, jan, good to see you. >> i wanted to start, there's been a ton of reporting on what's in these documents. there's obviously an outline, a summary of 31 of them in the

indictment. from the reporting, we know there is a contingency plan on attacking iran. a map of the war. zone the trump family has made a lot of money off of saudi arabia. so, if you look at, that from reading the indictment, who do you think might want access to these documents, if trump were to share? them >> >> well, when you talk about things like the american war plan for iran, a lot of countries, certainly countries in the middle east like saudi arabia or the united arab emirates, also countries like russia and china who want to understand how the u.s. military operates,, looked, and i think it's really important to note, first of, all something like the war plan for iran, it's not something that can become not sensitive. that's a future oriented document and it's not something we knew a few years ago. we wanted to figure out how people gathered intelligence. that's an active war plan that deals with things like not just the targeting, the position of u.s. military resources in the middle east. if you potentially put our military in danger for people

to know what our plans. are when it comes to. even countries like saudi arabia that are more aligned with the united states, there's a lot of reasons to want to understand the nature of the program, the nature american plans. look, part of what we know from the reporting, he was sharing this because there's an audiotape with mark meadows biographers. do really think that those are the only people that donald trump had these documents with, entire time he had them? like with golf tours. >> there is a question of where they were stored there is a room with a patio door that swung open. if you are an operative from another country it was probably pretty easy to figure out where some of the documents might be. these are things we don't know yet. it's all possible as we assess and learn more moving forward i wanted to ask you go ahead. >> jen, that's right, it's really important to note that mar-a-lago is not an office in an office building. this is a place that's probably been the number one

intelligence target for foreign adversaries for the last several years. it has people wandering through and going to parties if you don't think that all manner of foreign countries are trying to get people to mar-a-lago, you never watch the spy movie. >> exactly, so this morning, there was some jim jordan on television. he said trump can classify and control access to national security information. he's gonna take his word for it. that's not the case once a president leaves office. even if our president is in office, in terms of determining what information is going to be declassified, it's not standard for our president to waive a. wantonly about how that might work. >> well,, jen you are there several times when we declassified things at president brahmas a crest. after the snowden disclosures the weapons, attack drone strikes if you wanted to talk about them in public. we went through a protocol where you basically do a risk assessment. what would be potential damages

to u.s. national security for revealing this? what our sources and methods of collections he put at risk? wade humans and other countries be put at risk? before you talk about -- nevertheless putting it in the ballroom, you'd want to do that risk assessment with the intelligence community. with white house staff. clearly, none of that happened. there's clearly no risk assessment done about it. >> that's pretty clear. exactly, one of the phrases that occurs frequently in this indictments, where it's outlined specifically, military capabilities of other countries. explain to us a little bit more about what that means. >> well, look, the u.s. government tries to spend a lot of resources to understand what military capabilities of russia. what are the potential military capabilities of china's we can plan against? at one of the capabilities of iran, and the case of potential military contingency? for other people to get access to, that foreign governments,

if they were able to access it, if even individuals that might want to put that information on the open market because it's valuable that can cause grave damage to u.s. national security. all of our planning, all of our budgeting is often tied to intelligence and our assessments. we have to revise all those plans in addition to being damaging to u.s. military forces and planning. it's also potentially costly. we have to essentially redo things. people are not going to trust us to provide information to formulate plans if they're going to get burned. you might rely on human sources. we're not going to have that partnership around the world if they think that their information is going to end up in a box in mar-a-lago where a bunch of people are monitoring it. not >> as we are all consuming this indictment, a group that was consuming the indictment was the intelligence community. you and i have been a part of red teaming in assessing damage and what the damage can be in many occasions. if we went down that worst

rabbit hole, what is the worst thing that could be in these documents that we should prepare ourselves for? >> the worst, thing if it got into other people's hands are other people learn about this information, there are a number of things. first of, all people could look at those documents and figure out how we got that information. that could potentially put lives at risk when we talked about, again, people who cooperate with us in terms of human intelligence, so, that's one big category of risk. and that's also a risk going forward. people not might not want to share with information if we don't take it seriously in terms of security. and the other risk is again, the position of the u.s. military resources in -- it could be put at risk. future plans have to be re-done. bay might be out in the open. so, the real damages to our capacity to respond to contingencies, to get intelligence, there is potentially, potentially dangerous today and peoples lives if human sources are

informing the documents. you have to think, given the sensitivity, these are not just assessments. things are analytical assessments. these family plans. they sound like things that were informed by very sensitive sources and methods of intelligence collection. >> ben rhodes thank you for informing me for many. harris great talking with you today. next i will ask congressman jim hines, the ranking member of the house insight committee, about his concern surrounding what we don't know about the classified documents that were lying around mar-a-lago. plus the trusted republican logic of defending donald trump through just about anything. impeachments, indictments, everything in between. in between. eggland's best eggs. classic, cage free, and organic. more delicious, farm-fresh taste. plus, superior nutrition. which is now more important than ever. ♪♪ my husband and i have never been more active. which is now more important than ever. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers.

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show tonight. thank you so much for taking the time with me this evening. so, you're the ranking member of house intel. there is a lot we clearly don't know at this point about these documents. what the motivation, was who saw them, how concerned are you about some of those unknowns right now? >> well, john, i think one of a few things have actually seen a lot of documents that were found at mar-a-lago, i will tell, you obviously can't tell you think about the documents, i can characterize it, when i can tell you is that having seen those documents, i'm far more concerned than i was before i saw them. there it was enormously sensitive stuff in what we now know it is instilled boxes and bathrooms. we may never know who had access to this stuff. if it were out in the wild, it would do grave damage to u.s. national security. who gave damage before militias. as i sit here today, jen, i'm

almost more concerned about what may happen on tuesday. i'm watching my republican colleagues who know better. suggesting that this is all the weaponization of the u.s. government. this is january six over again. i watched my colleagues, who knew they were there was no fraudulent activity in the 2020 election. my constituents are worried about it. you have lindsey glam saying the republicans believe that their government is treating trump unfairly relative to hillary clinton. i'm so worried on tuesday we're going to see violence. it will be ultimately provoked by weaselly statements by my republican colleagues who will gin up a certain number of people to show up with the intent to do violence on tuesday in miami. i've got to tell, you it's a dark moment. >> congressman, you referenced, you know there are people like kari lake, there's a number of republicans who are your colleagues in the house. do you think there should be repercussions in the house? is there anything that can be done for people your fellow colleagues who are calling for

violence? and tempting to incite violence in this case? >> that's a tough question. it's a brutal question. mitt romney put out a statement that i thought was a statement of integrity. you had former attorney general barr put out a statement saying the skies and a lot of trouble. the attorney general defended trump. look, i've got republican colleagues who are making allusions to military action to revolution. my own friend nancy mace who i have profound respect for, she shows independents from time, time but a between a couple hours ago, it has a lie and. it says that hillary clinton used a hammer to destroy a server. none of that is true. the fact is, as you and i both, know the fbi investigated the emails charge. they found no criminal wrongdoing. they found a responsible behavior. meanwhile, my republican colleagues are joining up another violent event.

>> but his boxes, as we continue saying at this point in time. the other piece that's been concerning to me i assume to you at a higher level, just the flagrant flippancy about the treatment of classified documents. you have the former president having them all over mar-a-lago what kind of message does that send to your fellow colleagues? how concerned are you about what that will mean for how they treat classified information moving forward? >> the amazing thing, in the environment which i operate, i go, i see classified information every single day in a scif. i'm very careful. other people are very careful. my colleagues are very careful not to take information out. it's a little different in the white house, it's a little bit different in the presidents mansion. it's a little bit different if you're the director of cia. you live in a classified environment. what is clear,, jen when you have a 21-year-old in massachusetts, a president of the united states into former vice presidency united states, getting access and

inappropriately storing classified information, we have a broad problem, this is something the chairman turner and i will be very focused on in the coming months. we are just not doing this right. >> there has been a couple of members who have kind of alluded to, what their strategy will be. we saw it a little bit around the first indictment. it is using the subcommittee on weaponization, trying to target the biden administration, target prosecutors, what are you anticipating in the weeks ahead in terms of what jim jordan and others will try to do with his congressional powers? >> this gets back to what i was describing earlier. we know that jim jordan, we know the speaker, we even apparently, people like nancy mace, who i think of as a principled independent person are all in behind telling the american people their government as weaponized against them. now, facts appear not to matter. the facts are the weaponization committee has basically found nothing. they have been operating for six. months they found nothing.

the special counsel, who is investigating the russia investigation, they charge to, people both of whom were acquitted. meanwhile, half of donald trump's senior advisers were either charged with crimes or convicted with crimes from the campaign manager, it just goes on and on. so, the really frightening thing is that facts no longer matter. it was not the special counsel who indicted donald trump. it was a grand jury of regular americans who sat and looked at the evidence and said there is evidence of a crime here. not joe biden who tries donald trump, all of that would be set aside in favor of ginning up what ultimately transpose into a violent act. maybe i'm a little sensitive to it, i was in the chamber on january six. again, all of the weaselly defense of donald trump that we saw prior to the violence of january six, they're running

exactly that same play again. >> congressman jim hines, thank you for standing up for what you stand up for. for really being vocal about. it next, i pose one single question to republicans about donald trump and accountability. it's a hard one for them to answer. later, how the members of the 2024 field are reacting. some dividing lines begin to form. we're back after a quick break. ck break it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome... shortness of breath... and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm.

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laid out so far serious. credible allegations of a former president knowingly taking some of the nation's most sensitive secrets on his way out of office. lying and obfuscating in attempt to keep them for his self. if what the special counsel lays out is true and proven true in court, donald trump should face accountability for his actions. that's not the top message we are hearing from the republican party. most people in the republican party at this point. even before the indictment was unsealed, before they read anything, many republicans fell over themselves to defend donald trump. calling it a, quote, grave injustice. and weaponization of the department of justice. we heard weaponization a lot. evidence of a two tiered justice system. that's not at all what this means. this was all before we even knew what was in the indictment. and then when we did get the details in the indictment they, kept up the line. outside of a small handful of republicans, the line that most

are yet again using, donald trump is a victim, a victim, of an unfair system. how many times have we heard that before? it sounds familiar, right? look back to donald trump's first impeachment. when trump threatened to withhold military aid to a foreign ally in exchange for unannounced investigation into his political opponent. ultimately, in that case, republicans weren't defending the substance of trump's conduct, the problem for them was who was leading the investigation. house democrats at the time. and their argument at the time was, don't impeach him. let the voters decide at the ballot box. >> we have a presidential election in november. the people of this country can weigh in. they can make their voices heard. i think we should leave the decision up to them. >> let's not be so arrogant as to take that decision away from the american people. >> the people should make that decision. >> let this decision lie in its rightful place with the

electorate. >> the american people, not members of congress, will decide the presidency of the united states. >> well, here's the thing. the people did decide. and 2020, they voted to remove donald trump from the white house. suddenly, some of the same republicans said, actually, wait a second, it shouldn't be up to the voters of the american people. again, outside of a small handful, republicans entertained and echoed trump's rhetoric about our rate 2020 election. that amping up the election conspiracy all fed into the violence on january 6th. that's all related. when it came time to hold trump accountable for that, his role in that, when they conducted a second impeachment, a majority of republicans opted not to. many said it wasn't the right venue, by the time of his impeachment he was a former president. just to summarize here, it's too political of donald trump

is impeached -- it's too untrustworthy if donald trump is voted out but what happens of donald trump's charge through the legal system? well, according to many republicans, that's not legitimate either. if donald trump is charged his conduct by a local district attorney, it's gross overreach. if he's charged by federal prosecutors, it's a banana republic prosecution of a political opponent and regardless of the actual substance and we should leave it to the voters to decide. if you're staying with me here, we're back to the voters deciding and what happens this time if they don't elect him again if the last seven years have shown ever anything there is an excuse and there's a conspiracy and something that's unfair and it begs the question is there any forum to these republicans where they will hold trump accountable because of this under this logic it, can't be through an impeachment, . it can't be through elections

apparently it can't be through the courts either. up next, the politics of our federal indictments, not a thing i had to worry about back when i was working on presidential campaigns. we'll talk about how trump's republican rivals or he choosing to handle all of this next. three nights, esg... the broker will take your bonds. -diversification, futures, options. fiduciary. leverage. [whispering] -frothy markets. psst. virtual real estate is a lock. ♪ cold hard cash ♪ j.p. morgan wealth management knows the world is full of financial noise. i'm looking at your asset mix and plan. you are right on track. great, thanks. our easy-to-use app and local advisors are here to help you figure out what's right for your investments. j.p. morgan wealth management. (vo) this is sadie. she's on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants to help you figure out what's right for your investments. and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch.

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republican party seems to russia's defense. when it comes to this federal indictment, however, we are seeing a small but potentially significant faultline amongst his rivals for the gop nomination. former governor asa hutchinson says it reinforces the need for donald trump to respect the office and and his campaign. bold, calling for him to drop, out okay, and then there's former new jersey governor chris christie. who had this to say. >> is this the type of conduct that we want from someone who wants to be president of the united states. that conduct is bad. and it is bad for anybody in this country to do. it it's particularly awful for someone who has a president who inspires to be president again. >> so, hutchinson and christy are making the strategic bet that by taking on trump now it will help them politically. we will. see so, far everyone else in the political field is making a different bed. take the statement, four. example, quoted the weaponization of federal law

enforcement represents a mortal threat to a free society. why so zealous in pursuing trump yet so passive about hillary or hunter. there's a lot wrapped into that statement there. but that certainly sounds like someone working for the trump campaign. that's not someone working for donald trump. that is from someone running against him for the republican nomination. his chief rival, ron desantis. here's another statement. quote, what we've seen over the last several years is the weaponization of the department of justice against former president. i would purge all of the adjusts -- in our system. again, that sounds pretty trumpy in the language. that's from another rival for the nomination. senator tim scott of south carolina. they are not only refraining from attacking trump, they are echoing his language in many ways. the language of someone who has now been indicted twice. joining me now, is someone who knows a thing or two about republican politics and can help us answer just that. former adviser to house speaker paul ryan. brandon buck. clearly there's a lot to unpack

with this indictment. we've been trying to do. that i want to ask you about the politics here. there's two paths. if you are advising one of the presidential candidates,, which path would you be advising them to take to move up in the primary process? >> >> i don't even know if it's really like placing a bit because we've seen time and time again if you just leave donald trump alone he is going to be fine. he's not going to implode and anybody who seems to think, well, let's just get through this i don't want to upset anybody and we will take him down later is fooling themselves. he is not going to implode, this is not going to take him down and it's or you will only pay a political price if you make him pay a political price. i'm glad to see a couple candidates doing this but the vast majority of them are not. the question, it makes me question where they are in the race in the first place. >> let's call it the christy hutcheson strategy as of now. doing that strategy could help them make some headway in the process here? >> i think it is necessary. if you got in this race with the goal of defeating donald

trump in the election, that should be obvious that's why you got in you believe you are the person to have the nomination, not donald trump. you need to beat him. i think that's the only way you can go. if you're goal is to preserve standing with republican voters i understand, it's actually a slam dunk. do what some of these folks are doing. run interference, top whataboutism, all the talking points are easy, biden, clinton, they are easy. you don't think about it. but if you're goal is to defeat him do or not serving any real purpose. frankly i wish some of these people were just trump out of the race at this point. if you are going to do self preservation you are doing nothing to change the shape of the party and in fact every time that you insulate him from one of these things you make it easier for the next indictment, even easier for him to get off. >> you would have both been in these rooms, difference at different times. and you make a distinction sometimes. you say something or you don't say something. sometimes silence is telling.

senator mitch mcconnell hasn't said anything. what do you make of that? >> we know mitch mcconnell said, we know mitch mcconnell left the mcdonald trump part of the republican party long ago. i think he knows where the party is. that's why so many people are doing this. they have seen the same polls that are starting to come out now that have shown overwhelmingly republican voters think this is political, people are out to get donald trump. there have been two years and years of groundwork laid to make this case. it's overwhelming that's where the republican voters are. he doesn't see a lot of upside in that. i will experience going back to access hollywood, this is the same thing. after that, i was working for paul ryan at the time. we came out, they said forget this guy. and we realized no one was standing behind us. because the voters weren't there in that continue to be the case. this is travel politics, you know that. when people see that their guys being attacked they will rally behind him. it happens time and time again, no one should be surprised by the civil. this is where republican politics are now, mitch mcconnell goes this is not

where his voters are now, he doesn't want to divide his comrades by being the one guy saying let's get rid of him. >> it may not be as easy, once congress returns, this indictment was unsealed on friday. when congress is back -- there going to be chasing people down for comments. what do you anticipate is going to be the breakdown between people who were defending trump and people who were speaking out against what they see in this indictment? >> i think very few people will defend him on the substance. that's a bad idea cause you can't really trust him. but the talking points are easy. it's why wasn't joe biden indicted, why wasn't hillary clinton indicted, it will all be processed. i mentioned you see very few house members, house members closer to the republican base in the general, much more conservative in general. it's also important to appreciate we are talking about the story a lot. in a lot of conservative media they are not talking about it in the same way. >> go figure, that's wild. >> didn't really care what

people like some of us are saying right now. it makes it easier for them to just blow it off. you have members are going to be hounded but a lot of them will have easy talking points and dismissed it and it won't hurt the middle. >> there is a republican debate coming up in august, who knows if trump will appear. who should be watching, be on the strategy? is there a candidate or candidates you think could give him a run for his money? or is this donald trump's nomination to lose, essentially, at this point? >> i think he's the overwhelming favorite. i still put the camp in donald trump, desantis, and everyone else. desantis has the name i.d. and a large following. he needs to decide whether or not his goal is to defeat donald trump or preserve himself for next time. i'm worried that his goal is to preserve himself for next time. . >> before i let you go, what are they saying about this indictment, those who have read it? >> obviously on its face it stunning. the hard part for anybody is of

course this sounds like something donald trump would do. . and that's what's so hard for a lot of people to go oh well this is fine jim jordan tried to defend him a bit earlier today, that's really tough to do. i think people are stunned by a poll timidly it's all the same as before. we know how it goes annoyed into doing is making him -- >> thank you for joining me tonight. we'll be right back after a quick break. ter quick break. she picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one! all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. what are folks 60 and older up to these days? getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...!

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thanks for joining me for this special hour on the indictment of donald trump. we see this a lot but it is really going to be a remarkable week. with another arraignment of the former president on tuesday in miami. msnbc is going to have coverage of all of it. all week long be sure to follow the show on twitter tiktok and instagram. we will be back here next sunday on thursday but stay right where we are because the medina sancho starts right. now starts right no >> tonight, on the mehdi hasan show twice impeached twice indicted and unfit to serve. but is donald trump really heading to prison for 100 years? i will ask my panel of legal experts. plus, our nation's secrets next to a toilet. senate republicans