bipartisan deals so they can get it into senate. this faction has proven they don't like this kind of bipartisan deal making, and they're willing to act out by paralyzing the floor of the house in retaliation. we should find out in the next day or two this persists. they are willing to play this card. >> they're willing to play when the stakes are low. let's see. if they are, what happens to kevin mccarthy's leadership. thank you very much. and that is going to do it for me today. tomorrow, tuesday, is a big day, so please be sure to join us again. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ >> hi, everyone. happy monday. it's 4:00 in the new york. let's think of it as the aftermath of the indictment of donald trump and the documents case as being on two tracks now.

there is, of course, the fall-out from what trump is accused of doing when he is facing 37 criminal counts for doing and the potentially grave national security implications of that. we'll get to that in a minute. but there is also a legal process that has been kicked off, which begins in earnest tomorrow when the e-president surrendered for his court appearance. the political world's eyes will return to miami when president trump is expected to surrender. after leaving office, he obstructed efforts to retrieve them and that he made false statement. the event will be the former president's second courtroom appearance as a criminal defendant after his arraignment in april in a new york courthouse on state larges that he falsified business records in connection with a hush money statement to a porn star just before the 2016 election. one of the big outstanding

questions, though, ahead of tomorrow's appearance, who will be there representing donald trump? nbc news reports that the actual arraignment during tomorrow's hearing cannot proceed without legal representation by local counsel, and trump has yet to name one. at least one miami attorney has turned trump down. but there is brand-new reporting on the judge assigned to this case, a trump appointee who will be familiar to any one of you who have been following this investigation since it first burst into public view late last summer. from the new york times reporting on this, quote, the criminal case against trump over his hording of documents was randomly signed to judge cannon. the news raised eyebrows because of her role in an earlier lawsuit filed by trump

challenging. judge cannon, a trump appointee, effectively disrupted the investigation until a conservative appeals court rules that she never had legitimate legal authority to intervene. a judge whose pro-trump rulings were deemed out-of-bounds may not be enough, though, to tip the scales in his favor. given the scope of the ib dietment and the mountain of evidence jack smith has immassed. how the case was built in large part on the evidence from the man in the indictment referred to this way, as trump attorney one. we know that's evan corkran. essentially it gave prosecutors a road map to building their case. trump pressured him to reclaim reams of classified material and even suggested to him it might be better to lie to investigators and withhold the

documents altogether. that is where we start with some of our favorite reporters. he's a former acting solicitor general, now a law professor at georgetown university. joining us from the new york times, former republican congressman david, who knows more than a little bit about florida. let me start with florida, florida, florida as one has famously remarked. let me start with you. is it only florida where judge cannon, the judge who was -- it almost lends itself to how it was. she was so bad that a conservative appeals court rebuked her by the end. how did we get here? >> well, look, i do think it reflects this trend in florida about this kind of new age conservatism, post ideological republicanism. you're seeing that not just in politicians coming up but also the nominees for the federal bench ultimately supported by

our two senators and given approval by the united states senate. as neil and katie know, the important challenge for the judge in this case is to not be the news, not to have a profile in this case but let the case speak for itself. where could she create news? either through questions of competence or impar y'allty. going into this, though, i would say in some ways for american culture, for our community and ultimately for justice, you know, it may be a good environment to have a trump-appointed judge. that should not matter. in terms of the national conversation, it takes away a key argument of donald trump and his allies that somehow this is about the weaponization. he has been given a judge that ultimately he nominated and was confirmed by the senate.

you could see that is favorable, if you wish to, but it should be impartial. >> and neil, jack smith certainly knew this was a possibility. and i wonder if it is simply a fact or a result of there not being a lot of options as well as the strength of the case he has. here is what bill barr had to say about the strength of jack smith's case against donald trump. >> it quickly became clear what the government was really worried about were these classified and very sensitive documents. i was shocked by the degree of sensitivity of these documents and how many there were, frankly. and, so, the government's agenda was to get those, protect those documents and get them out. i think it was perfectly appropriate to do that. it was the right thing to do. and i think the counts under the espionage act that he willfully retained those documents are solid counts. now, i do think we have to wait and see what the defense says

and what proves to be true, but i do think that even half of what mccarthy said, which is even half of it is true, then he's toast. he was totally wrong that he had the right to have those documents. those documents are among the most sensitive secrets the country has. they have to be in the country archivist. he has no right to maintain them and retain them. and he kept them in a way at mar-a-lago that anyone that really cares about national security their stomach would churn at it. >> neil, if somewhere between plucking and moving the boxes around are true, if half of that is the case, then he's, quote, toast. >> yeah. i'm a little afraid to utter the next sentence i'm going to say because i think like a bolt of lightening will come and strike me down. so if that happens, it's been good knowing you. but here's my sentence. bill barr has it exactly right.

this case is incredibly strong. and you can have 10 eileen cannons. it doesn't matter who the judge is. you know, i think jack smith basically made the decision this evidence is so strong that you can put it before any judge, any jury, and it's going to lead to a conviction. and, you know, i know there is concern about judge cannon, and we'll let the process play out. it might be she recuses. there is a lot of team saying she has to recuse, including some prominent legal scholars. but a lot of times people think this person can't be impartial because of some decision he wrote or she wrote a while ago. as judges, people tend to put those views aside. in the big cases, there are three audiences. one is the audience in front of me, the nine justices or the single judge in a district court proceeding. the second is the audience in

the courtroom or watching on tv. and the third is the audience of history. i do think that audience of history here looms very large and has to loom for any judge, no matter what. the last thing i'd say about this is i do think that, because this is such an important criminal proceeding, it's got to be able to be viewed by the american public live. but with cameras. that's what we had, for example, with the george floyd murder when we prosecuted that. and i think we deserve no less as americans here. these are our taxpayer dollars going to pay our courts. if we are going to have a judge, whether judge cannon in florida or some judge in d.c. in a case to be named later about january 6th or whatever, these things are so important, so foundation to american democracy, i think that we have to be able to see them as americans. >> and, neil, i agree with you. but i am going to confess to some ignorance about where the authority to make that decision

in this case would lie. would that lie with the judge? >> it may lie -- it may have to go all the way up to the chief justice of the supreme court, john roberts. you know, the u.s. supreme court has been very concerned about cameras in its proceedings, but they have authorized them in the past. i argued, for example, against trump's muslim ban on live tv and it was carried, so there is definitely precedent for it. >> it may be a conversation for another day. i think cameras inside the supreme court would benefit everybody, including them. let me come to you on jack smith because i don't want to gloss over what we know about jack smith today that we didn't know about jack smith at this time on thursday. i mean, we know that his case was built methodically and out of view. but we also know from the indictment that one of the pivotal terms was making his case about the fraud exception

and being allowed to proceed by piercing attorney-client privilege and accessing all the notes from his time with donald trump. i will just read the fruits of that tree. trump and trump attorney one then discussed what to do with the redwell folder and whether trump attorney one should bring them to his hotel room or put them in a safe there. during that conversation, trump made a plucking motion. he made a funny motion, as though, well, okay, why don't you take them with you to your hotel room and if there is anything really bad in there like, you know, pluck it out. and that was the motion he made. he didn't say that. colleagues have reported extensively on trump's complicated relationship with document preseration, including

toilet bowls and crumpled things and other places, but this is the first known instance of plucking that he wanted done with presidential records, and in this case classified documents that were, in his view, quote, really bad. wow. >> yeah. so correct. it's really unusual to see this much information from an attorney in a criminal indictment. generally speaking, you are supposed to be able to have private conversations with your lawyer and ask about the device and options. but what jack smith was able to do in this instance is to show to the judge how the conversation donald trump was having were not just seeking legal advice but he was trying to involve his lawyer in a crime. but this is something we know about jack smith. he is going to run down every road and try to take it to the very -- as far as he can. we saw in previous investigations, especially with

the moore investigation debate should we get the court to do a, b or c and sometimes they decided against. with jack smith, they decided we need to pursue every path until we get a no. in this case he got a yes. he's going to want to make sure that her interviews even because when he goes to trial, he wants to know what everyone has said. he's wanted to put them in the grand jury box to their statements are locked in so the defense cannot use them later and surprise him with something that would be really helpful to donald trump. >> to the point about what we know about jack smith, and i don't want to make comparisons. i mean, he's under different restraints, less restraints than mueller's team was, that stipulated, he followed both paths of this investigation to say nothing of january 6th aggressively, right? the underlying crime he charged him with the espionage act. the acts are detailed, and i

want your opinion as to whether they're bolstered by the violations of the espionage act. i want to read one more passage because it seems like the window into trump's state of mind is open and shut here. as memorialized by trump attorney one, quote, i don't want anybody looking. i don't want anybody looking through my boxes. i really don't. i don't want you looking through my boxes. well, what if we -- what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them? them being the u.s. government he once led. quote, wouldn't it be better if we just told them we don't have anything here? well, look, isn't it better if they are in the documents? it is an extraordinary window into how he looks and how he talks to his lawyers. it makes you want to go back and see what else he asked people representing him to do.

>> right. and that's why so many people who have represented him have wound up being disbarred or in bar proceedings or criminal proceedings or the like. it is the surest fast cut if you want to go to jail yourself or lose your license, is to work for this guy. the quotes you're reading are from paragraph 54. for our viewers that have many things going on with their lives, if there is just a paragraph to read, it is paragraph 54 because it really does outline a chilling case of a guy who is bent on using his own lawyers not for legal advice but to further a crime, to have them pluck out and hide evidence and things like that. it is -- it is chilling. now, with respect to the point that katie was making about jack smith being aggressive and the comparisons to robert mueller, i guess i would say a couple of things. one is i agree with katie very much when it comes to undercovering what the truth is,

so he is not leaving stones unturned. he is going and saying, for example, boy, it looks like this attorney isn't expensing legal advice or being asked to dispense legal advice. we're going to go to the court. we're going to pierce attorney-client privilege. jack smith brought that case all the way up to the d.c. circuit, the nation's second highest court. they agreed with him that the attorney-client privilege doesn't shield these materials. so he's been meticulous on that. that's different than being an aggressive prosecutor general. you are throwing the book at someone. you know, if smith wanted to do that here, for example, he could have easily indicted in washington, d.c. and yet, you know, trump's lawyers would have made a -- would have tried to argue something about that and tried to make a mess of it, but he would have won that every day of the week. what i think he decided to do is, look, this indictment, where is it occurring? it is mostly occurring in

florida. that's the way the justice department thinks and jack smith is not a political person. he's not a democrat, not a biden person. he's an independent prosecutor, not affiliated with a political party, making that decision. the other thing i will say about the jack smith-mueller position is it is very different. under the special counsel guidelines, merrick garland has said, jack smith you are running the show. if you indict, that's your call. if you don't indict, that's your call. i will not go and micro manage and police you and your decisions. that's the opposite of what we had before, and this goes full circle to how you and i started this conversation today because before it was bill barr over seeing the mueller investigation. and it was bill barr who base by forced so many shortcuts -- so many truncated investigative paths and the like and who missummarized the report. so if you are a prosecutor in

mueller's office, you always had to worry anything that would try to get at the truth would lead to you losing your job. >> even with all of those limitations and restraints and -- and the complete misrepresentation of whar 23-month investigation found, there were six acts of misconduct described. and mueller said if he could say that laws hadn't been broken he would, and he didn't. i want to come back to you, neil, on one thing. what are we to expect tomorrow? abc news is reporting, and "the new york times" is reporting that trump is meeting with candidates to represent him locally. that's why he's in miami today ahead of tomorrow's court appearance. but what are we to expect tomorrow? what will we know this time tomorrow that we don't know today? >> i think a lot of it will be a formality. first of all, there is a question as to which this proceeding will go forward as planned with an arraignment and the like because trump does need a lawyer barred in the southern

district of florida. he has a couple of lawyers in other cases that are barred there, but they would have to enter appearances here, and lawyers often are loathe to enter appearances in criminal cases because, nicole, once you join a criminal case, it's very difficult to get out of that criminal case. and, so, you know, even his existing lawyers in other cases may have some skiddishness about jumping in to this case. they may or may not. trump's obviously interviewing other people. i suspect he will find someone to represent him tomorrow. and tomorrow that, you know, he will be brought to the court. it sounds like he won't be brought through the main door but through a side door he will have to go into the courtroom and say before a magistrate judge, not judge cannon who will preside tomorrow and say your plea, is it guilty or not guilty. and so trump has never thought he's guilty of anything. therefore, i suspect nothing too

surprising is going to happen tomorrow inside the courtroom. outside the courtroom, of course, a very different story. >> i want to show you, david jolly, some of what jack smith brought to bear. trump knows a lot more than a normal ex-president about classification because the entire purpose of his first candidacy in 2016 was about classification specifically. here's some of what jack smith had to work with. >> in my administration, i'm going to enforce all orders concerning the protection of classified information. no one will be above the law. >> we also need to fight this battle by collecting intelligence and then protecting, protecting our classified secrets. >> we can't have someone in the oval office who doesn't understand the meaning of the

word "confidential" or "classified." one of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information. >> we also need the best protection of classified information. >> service members here in north carolina have risked their lives to acquire classified intelligence to protect our country. >> again, i don't play that. i have a high bar for amplifying anything he ever said, but in this instance, it blows out of the water any claim he seeks to make in the future about i'm not understanding the classification process. he understands it better than most. >> yeah, that's right, nicole. lady justice showing us she has an understanding of karma and a sense of humor as well this week. you could not write the projection that donald trump was engaged in in then secretary

clinton to now be facing his own loss of liberty about what exactly he accused her of. i think donald trump knows that and understands that. i think donald trump knows that his wisest strategy is not to win this case in the southern district of florida but to win the presidency. and that is why you're seeing this two-tiered strategy. attorneys are left with a client who continues to lie himself and misrepresent. but a political strategy that he sees as working. i think where those two kind of intersect, if you will, is we don't know yet know what the trial schedule would look like. it could look like any number of things. for donald trump, the sweet-spot would be to land this trial just after the republican primary. understand that's early. the republican primary will be decided by about the second or third week in march. once you make it through the early states and then florida is on march 17th. so for donald trump, he has said

it in his own words, he intends to get re-elected specifically today against joe biden and family members of president biden. for donald trump, yes, he wants to win this case. he has set this out on the american narrative, that this is the weaponization of the government. but what he knows is his greatest shot at protecting his own liberty is to win the white house again. that's the calling for the country to stand up and say we're going to embrace an american or we're going to stand in the way of donald trump's ambition. >> katie, i want to give you the last word on sort of the points that both david and neil are making about everything that is coming together because jack smith seems aware of all of this, and he spoke very briefly. he spoke very deliberately. but one of the things he did say was to underscore his wish and donald trump's right to a speedy trial. >> absolutely. you know, and the government has

also filed a document saying they think they could wrap up the trial, that they could present their dorgment in 20, 21 days. they feel this is a strong case. we will look at how the pretrial motions are handled, how many times can donald trump throw up a motion that allows him to stall or push back. the government is convinced they have a strong case. it doesn't matter what judge they can go before, that he could convince a jury of donald trump peers that he is not guilty. what we have not seen and will be a huge test for the political system, maybe more for the justice department, is how donald trump uses that trial. for the first time, we're basically going to see somebody campaigning, perhaps even from the witness stand at his own criminal trial. somebody trying to use something as serious as a criminal trial for a campaign. it will be memed. it will be talked about. it will be talked about in campaign rallies. and it will be almost impossible for his opponents to use what should be a real weakness, to

use that against him, especially in the republican primary because nobody is sure whether or not donald trump's own supporters, the voters will see this as a weakness and turn against him. so this is a integration of the justice system and the political system like we have never seen before. it is a huge test for the republican party because right now they are the people best positioned, the leaders of the republican party are best positioned to repudiate donald trump and find a leader that does not have imminence meal baggage and who will not use it to basically undermine and tear down our criminal justice system. >> to say nothing of our intelligence agencies or national security institutions, perfectly put. thank you so much for starting us off. neil and david, stick around. when we come back, more on the threat posed by trump's hording of military secrets at mar-a-lago and what keeps the nation's intelligence experts up

at night. john brennan will be our guest. plus, we have been here. the long history of the ex-white house occupant sharing intelligence which goes back very far. we will talk with someone who laid that out in the past. and later, the real concern for violence after a weekend of incredibly alarming rhetoric from the ex-president and his most extreme allies. those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick broke. don't go anywhere. after a quick. don't go anywhere.

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before the disgraced twice impeopled, now twice indicted ex-president is set to be arraigned in a south florida courtroom. let that sentence sink in. but putting aside the legal rubric cube of trump's lawyers and trump's appointed federal judges who may or may not recuse themselves, put that track aside for a second. what we know how guarantees that this is a white knuckle moment for our nation for one reason, because of what the atlantic calls the national security nightmare that we find ourselves in, because that is what allegedly hording some of the countries most sensitive intelligence secrets in bathrooms and ballrooms and showers for more than a year and moving them around and around to all those places causes a national security nightmare. to understand the severity of the charges against trump, consider a thought experiment. imagine that vladimir putin is one day driven from the kremlin,

perhaps in the coup or the face of a popular revolt. he jumps into his limo. his trunk is full of secret documents that he decided belonged to him, including russia's military weaknesses. now imagine how valuable those boxes would be to any intelligence agency in the world. that thought experiment is certainly enough to keep anybody up at night, at least national security professionals who when they read that 38-count indictment saw deadly serious ramifications that may be invisible to civilians like you and me. national security experts have been shaken by what the indictment lays bear for a long time. the unsealed indictment on former president trump's handling of classified documents has current and former national security officials stating the case is devastating against him and damage may have been done to

u.s. national security. it is some of the most sensitive information we possess, said a senior pentagon official in the trump administration. this type of information should never be removed from a secured facility. once discovered should have been immediately returned. as we all know, donald trump believed that everything in the boxes were, quote, mine, mine, mine. joining our coverage former cia director, msnbc national security analyst brennan. director brennan, i haven't had a chance to talk to you since this all sunk in and since the images of the boxes have had time to sort of settle and sink in. some folks i talked to who worked in the national security agencies during my time in government, but i know everyone views being charged under the espionage act as deadly serious. your thoughts today? >> well, nicole, again, when you look at those photos of those

boxes of documents and the indictment, just those 31 documents of many hundred that were left unsecured for such a long period of time at mar-a-lago which i believe undoubtedly was from foreign intelligence services in terms of an ability to get to our nation's secrets, when you look at those and the classification levels and the code words, it really provides a shocking glimpse into the gamut of intelligence capabilities that they relate to. human sources around the globe that put their lives at risk to keep our countries safe, the satellite capabilities that we have, the expert ability to analyze imagery, the ability to interpret data acquired from sensors around the globe, these are capabilities that have taken years and billions of dollars and great effort to be able to

array in a manner that tries to keep our country safe and gives us insight into what our adversaries are doing. so being left unsecured for so long, it really, i think, has caused a shockwave to go through the intelligence community. among my former colleagues, when they see what was at risk and unfortunately they're going through the assessment now about what might have been compromised and i don't think it will ever be determined conclusively what may have been compromised because if there was intelligence services that were able to gain access to this information, they wouldn't have taken the documents. they would have made copies of them, photographs of them with, you know, small cameras. and, so, what our intelligence community is doing right now is trying to determine, based on other indications, what human sources might have been compromised. what collections systems might be known to our adversaries. so this will be a pain staking and year's long effort to try to

insheer we protect those capabilities despite the recklessness and carelessness of donald trump. >> and it seems strong that if one of trump's defenses was that they were secure, his own lawyers have been all over the air waves describing mar-a-lago and bed minister as not secure. let me show you what one of his ex-lawyers said to cnn's jake tapper. >> there are certain individuals that made defending the president much harder than it needed to be. in particular, there is one individual who works for him, boris epstein, who had really done everything he could to try to block us, to prevent us from doing what we could to defend the president. he was not very honest with us or with the client on certain things. there were certain things, like the searches that he attempted to interfere with. >> you said that boris tried to prevent you from conducting searches. what searches are those? >> the searches at bed minister

eventually. there was a lot of push back from him where he didn't want us doing the search and we had to eventually overcome in. >> and look at the storage of this. look at the storage of this. this is not exactly fort knox. i mean, and what you had earlier in the day with kristin holmes, let's show the one with guys in the control room with the boxes on the stage in mar-a-lago because it just seems like i had assumed that there was at least some -- there. look at that. that's a room where everybody who is in mar-a-lago has access to. i had assumed there was some effort to at least put them in a room and lock them away. that's incredibly reckless. >> if they knew what was in the boxing, yeah. >> but there have been at least two chinese national intruders. >> sure. >> plus, another con member that pretended she was a member of the rothchild family who got access to mar-a-lago. those are just the three we know

about. this is a country club in florida. i have no idea who had access to it. that's not secure, right? >> that's absolutely right. that's not secure. >> you know, an open and shut case against any claims that the documents weren't in danger made by trump's criminal defense counsel, where do we begin to imagine what was possible? and do you understand why the first chunk of time when it is just the national archives trying unsuccessfully to get the documents, does that make more or less sense to you now that you see just how specifically dangerous these documents were in trump's possession? >> well, i think the national archives probably didn't realize and know what documents may have been out there. they realize it is somewhere missing from the records. but at these two facilities there were hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals who were staff or caterers or members or guests of donald trump or others that had pretty

ready access and regular access to these facilities. and to see those boxes that are just piled up in all of these areas, again, they just underscore just how critically important it was to be able to get these documents, despite donald trump's efforts to prevent the government from getting them back. and, so, that's why i think there is such a -- this has been such a nightmare for national security professionals, not just professionals, but those like myself that work many years. i know it is sending shockwaves around the globe. other intelligence security services, those working with the united states intelligence services in order to keep peace and security. so why would individuals want to continue to work with us in the future if a former president of the united states carelessly just allowed these documents to be left unsecured? i'm sure there was intelligence in there that came from our closest partners and allies

around the globe again. so the extent of the potential damage here is just unknown, and i think will always be unknown because of what donald trump has done. >> in 2017, you described donald trump as wittingly or unwittingly being -- coordinating with the russians. perhaps unwittingly seemed to be your conclusion in congressional system. andrew mcgabe opened a counter intelligence, not criminal investigation, but counter intelligence into the question of whether firing comey because comey refused to fire mike flynn or sergei kislyak was obstructive. again, a counter intelligence investigation. we learn in the sort-pile-up and carnage of the post-trump presidency that there was never a counter investigation done into trump, that those questions

that lots of national security folks had about trump, including some people that talked about rupert and others over the course of the presidency, they were never answered. now he's been charged under the espionage. if he is, i think i know what you are going to say. why isn't that, you know, now a verb and a threat, everything all his opponents from the white house are saying today. >> he is definitely a threat, major danger to our national security. he has been for many years and will continue to be. which is why i just kind it so, so disheartening and it makes me angry when i hear people like lindsey graham make excuses and apologies for donald trump. those are the words of a spineless coward, quite frankly, who is frightened by donald trump and frightened by those individuals that still claim this image of donald trump as being this very strong leader, which he is not.

and that's why veterans of the u.s. military who have put their lives on the line, and many of them who lost their lives, anybody who continues to support donald trump for any type of political office really is just ignoring what the facts and reality have demonstrated to all of us. this is a man who didn't care about our national security. his actions and his behavior continue to put this country at risk and american citizens at risk. he has no interest in doing anything except that which is going to advance his own political craven interests. so, again, this indictment, i think, reveals in very vivid detail just how dangerous he is to our future. >> donald trump also had a well-documented pattern of not wanting to honor wounded veterans, people who had been injured protecting u.s. national security interests, the most honorable among us many people feel. his disdain for the intelligence

community was actually illustrated in person on the first day of his presidency. he stands before the wall where heroes for whom we can't have their names on plaques, right, they died namelessly and selflessly. and he stood in front of that memorial and talked about and argued and hectored about the size of his crowd. his disdain for u.s. national security, from the military to the intelligence agencies to say nothing of the state department is so well-documented. what do you make of the community and the cowardice of people, john nus named one, but you got to get online to get to the top of the carrot list on the right. >> yeah. it almost makes me want to try to see people not stand up to this. so i think, nicole, there is two issues. one is what you just referred to as the despicable conduct. how he treated veterans throughout his time there and

how recklessly he handled classified and sensitive information when he was president, like disclosing it to the russians in the oval office in his first year. you know, cavalierly tweeting stuff. all of that is despicable. it is inexcusable. but none of that is criminal. it is a different matter when you leave office and you are no longer president. look, i'm willing to spot you, spot trump that when you are a sitting president you have got a kind of presidential pass to declassify documents. but you lose that pass when you lose the presidency. and trump knew that, which is why that iran tape about him saying, look, i can't show you this because it is so classified is telling. it shows prosecutors what his state of mind is. and all these rules exist for a really good reason. when john was in the government, when i was national security adviser, we had classified information every day. but of course we couldn't like after we left the job and left

the government we couldn't like take it home with us as our souvenir where he couldn't take it because we wanted to protect and have information against books that might be written one day. those are the most inknock louse explanations of what trump was doing with those documents. the whole system is set up prophylactically to avoid letting government officials do anything like this. that's why the charges have to be brought. that's why it doesn't matter what jury you try this in front of and what judge you try this in front of. this paints a picture of a guy who is going to jail. >> wow. neil, director john brennan, for all the conversations we've had with both of you over the years, to have your perspectives and expertise and experience at this moment is really valuable to us. thank you so much for spending time with us today.

donald trump launched an unprecedented campaign of obstruction. he poses a threat to our national security. those words were uttered four years ago. they were a warning. how trump's long history of flagging the rules has come back to bite him in the you know where. we'll look at this next. we'll look at this next. broke grad student so i like a sale. i think it was a good gift. it blew my mind. give ancestrydna®. now on sale for father's day. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley

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ordering executive branch agencies and government officials to defy subpoenas for documents and testimony. president trump's conduct sought to undermine our free and fair elections, imposes an imminent threat to our national security. >> that warning during the ex-president's first impeachment trial was daunting and effective and it's only reinforced by what we knew to be true at the time and what remains true today about trump's reckless flouting at laws meant to protect u.s. national security. it included a u.s. meeting where he shared highly classified intelligence with russian officials. it turns out all of us was only a forewarning for what we learned in recent days about trump's devastating disregard for u.s. national security on his way out the door. crammed into boxes in a bathroom among other places they didn't belong that continues to

jeopardize our safety well after he left office. daniel goldman of new york joins us from the capitol. you were the former lead council in the impeachment of donald trump. i want your thoughts on all of us, but just on this thread we have been pulling about u.s. national security and whether we ever got answers to the questions you and the committee posed about trump being a threat to our security and our country's national security agencies. >> oh, we got the answers. it was very clear that he was a national security threat, and the republican members of the house all voted against impeachment and the republican senators other than mitt romney, who voted to acquit him now are seeing the repercussions of those votes because his disregard for national security, his disregard for our intelligence community, for classified information and our

sources and methods was quite evident from the beginning. as you pointed out in that meeting in the oval office with the russian foreign minister essentially giving up a source to russia with information. and now we see it play out in shocking detail and i think director brennan hit it so poignantly about all of the trickle down effects of this investigation that go far beyond this indictment but even in this indictment what you see are two examples, two instances and those are only the ones that the special counsel can prove of donald trump showing highly sensitive classified information, including military plans to invade a foreign country to people who did not have security clearances in places that were not secure. this jeopardizes our national security in so many different ways, and it is apparent -- not

only apparent, but it is crystal clear that donald trump is a threat to our national security. and, nicole, i would add one thing. any member of congress who defends donald trump and his conduct here demonstrates such a serious disregard for our national security and our classified information that i do not believe they should be able to review classified information themselves. >> i wanted to ask you about his enablers. i mean, mitch mcconnell in acquitting trump the second time referred him criminally, for his role in plotting a coup against his own government. so prosecutor to prosecutor, what is your analysis of the strength of the case that jack smith has charged. >> nicole, i've investigated and charged a number of people, i've drafted indictments for the grand jury and this is as

specific and damning of an indictment that i think i've ever seen. and it's clear that the special counsel knowing that this indictment was probably going to be the only real opportunity to explain the charges until a trial went into much greater detail than is necessary. but what you see are quotes and transcripts of text messages. you get video surveillance, you have the notes from donald trump's own attorney. you obviously have a lot of testimony from the grand jury and most damningly you have a recorded conversation with donald trump where he acknowledges that he has classified information in his possession long after he was the president in an unsecure location and that it is secret and that he cannot at that point declassify it. he acknowledges correctly that

he could have as a president, but that he could not do it and so they will need to look into that. that is essentially an admission of guilt right in that recording. and we will hear republicans say, oh, he's the president, he could declassify it. maybe, you know, that's a nice spin right now but in his own voice in a private conversation he acknowledged the exact opposite. >> it's a remarkable case in that all of it is if you have eyes and ears in front of your face, it's trump's voice and we saw how a jury reacted to trump's voice in the e.j. case. thank you. we're very grateful. >> my pleasure, nicole. >> we'll be right back. >> we'llk your monster to-do list. really?

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we were invited by the president of the united states!

>> what really made me want to come of the fact that, you know, i had supported trump all that time. i did believe, you know, that the election was being stolen and trump asked us to come. >> he personally asked for us to come to d.c. that day. i thought for everything he's done for us, if this is the only thing he's going to ask of me, i'll do it. >> the president got everybody riled up, told everybody to head on down. so we basically were just following what he said. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. we know this now, right? it's not a theory, it's not a left-leaning viewpoint, it's in the record. history now shows that when donald trump broadcasts to his supporters that he has been wronged and tells them to defend him, they do just that. they listen. command and control. january 6th, 2021, thousands of trump supporters descended on washington, d.c. because he told

them to and he falsely told them that the 2020 election had been stolen from him and that the protest on the 6th would be, quote, wild. we all know what happened after that, right? we watched it on live tv, which is why precisely concerns over his very recent rhetoric around his federal indictment saying things like, quote, we must be strong and defeat those destroying our country, are mounting today. just as scary, if not scarier, as the messages coming from trump are the ones coming from his allies in position of power with platforms that resonate with his base, sitting members of congress, prominent leaders in the maga world, congressman clay higgins in louisiana, member of the house homeland security of all things and congressman andy biggs tweeted out calls for war and decided not to amplify them again but

you can find them. donald trump jr.'s fiancee talked about retribution in an instagram post and defeated candidate for governor of arizona kari lake spoke about having to go through all of trump's supporters to get to him and made sure to note that most of his supporters are gun owners and gun carriers. as i said, we're not reading them for a very specific reason. believe it or not, some of us watch us and we don't want to amplify the rhetoric coming from them. the fbi said quote, the calls and threats have been amplified on right-wing media sites and have been met by supportive responses from social media users and cheers from crowds who have become conditioned over

several years by mr. trump. this afternoon trump arrived in miami ahead of his appearance in court tomorrow where authorities are on high alert. law enforcement officials in miami were monitoring social media calls with protests and events with an advisory from the miami dade police alerting agencies about a planned rally monday outside the trump national doral. concerns about violence regarding frightening responses from trump and his supporters is where we begin. former attorney general mary mccord is here and former obama national security adviser ben rhodes joins us and joining me

with a byline on the reporter mike schmidt. you quote on a direct quote from the insurrection from donald trump on january 6th. >> there is this expression in daily newspaper ink called one, two trend. when we were looking at this rhetoric over the weekend, we -- certainly myself i was surprised by how far trump's allies were going. and i know that they have used this rhetoric before, i know that it was used in the lead-up to january 6th, i know that this is part of trumpism, but still i looked at this and along with my colleagues and we said we need to write a story about this and tie this all together because it does have some of the beat that

we've seen play out before, before these major events. there also have been events where nothing has happened, like in manhattan when he was arraigned. but it was just sort of, you know, especially the kari lake audio where she talks about how to get to trump, they're going to have to go through her and all of trump's supporters -- >> millions. >> millions of supporters who are members of the nra and then this other language made by conservative commentators about milley, about what they wanted do to milley if they legally could. >> kill him. >> correct. it wasn't hard to find these different examples. >> and i actually looked, i googled it, mary, which is probably more than one of an extremists to see if republicans

had condemned it en masse, and if i'm looking and have a hard time finding it, there's no way the would-be extremists, especially those prone to violence saw any universal condemnation of the rhetoric. what is the effect of that in terms of calculating the real risk for violence? >> you know, this is something that's been building up over the years, right, and you can already see if you just kind of compare this type of rhetoric from a few years ago, like pre2020 to where we are now, you see a consistent drum beat of, you know, thinly veiled calls to violence that get thinner and thinner. it seems like elected officials have continued to push the envelope of, you know, what they think they can get by with doing, what will come just short of crossing that line into a threat that is a crime or incitement to imminent violence, which is a crime, and others are not condemning it. so it normalizes this type of

rhetoric, it normalizes this type of violence. and one of the things that i said to mike when i talked to him this weekend for the story was, you know, unless and until there is some accountability for the people who are engaged in this rhetoric, the elected officials, there's very little deterrent to them. instead what happens is the people who listen to it, the people who become -- who feel like it's giving them permission to go out and engage in acts of harassment, intimidation and violence, they're the ones who ultimately pay the price. we've seen that with the thousand prosecutions after january 6th. if there are lone actors or groups that interrupt the judicial proceedings or engage in threats or intimidation near the courthouse, they may be arrested for various crimes they committed, yet too often these elected officials who are really calling for it and normalizing it and giving permission, they oftentimes go scott free. so this is a dangerous spiral

that we're in of continuing to escalate this kind of rhetoric that causes real world actions. not always, as mike just mentioned. in manhattan after the first indictment, there was very little in the way of mobilization. but miami and palm beach in florida is not the same as manhattan. i hope that people are understanding that they should not be the foot soldiers carrying out the wishes of politician who is have so far largely escaped accountability. >> mary, i want to do this carefully because what i have before me again feels like a loaded rhetorical gun. but when you had timothy mcveigh at waco before oklahoma city, you had this compounding radicalizing events. now you have a lot of the january 6th enthusiasts pointing back to that and toward tomorrow in miami.

i'm going to just read a fragment of one of trump's sport supporters. >> quote, i want blood. i'm giving you a little bit of this. please don't put it up, control room. maga will make waco look like a tea party. i'm not going to read the name. but it's all about their plans, their very specific plans. what can the fbi do with this very specific plan, tying plan violence for tomorrow not just to january 6th but back to waco, which ties to oklahoma city, which is precisely the kind of target that they might have in mind. >> yeah, some of this type of online discussion and threats and planning could be actionable for the fbi. it will depend on how specific it was. certainly they can be using the tools available to them to try to attribute to the statements and comments to the real users and they can always go and try to engage with that particular

social media user and try to ask them questions. they can also certainly and should, and we know post january 6th this was one of the i think mistakes made, the lack -- the failure to fully mobilize a law enforcement response in preparation for the mobilization of extremists, but they can be more prepared and i expect they will be more prepared at the courthouse, even though not the same thing as being called for at the courthouse, although we don't know for sure. and then there may be some of these things that cross the line into threats. you know, threats to do specific harm to individuals who are named, that is not protected by the first amendment and that's the type of threat that can be prosecuted. again, incitement to imminent lawless activity is not protected, incitement to violence and riots. seditious conspiracy. if there is a conspiracy to interrupt the proceedings of

court, that's using force to hinder, delay the execution of u.s. law. that's the same thing the oath keepers and proud boys were convicted of. not everything will rise to a level of being able to take action but they can always seek to talk to individuals and dissuade them from doing things that might violate the law and i hope that they're deploying their resources to that right now. >> ben, it is surreal to have this conversation in private having worked in the government. it is indescribable to have it on live tv and to have been a part of the party that is now part of the rot and threat to domestic security in the united states. i remember and i think based on his early messages as a candidate, he won't mind if i disclose this for the first time, i remember talking to chris christie after trump said stand back and stand by to the proud boys.

i think him explaining why he wouldn't do it, i understood not just trump's enthusiasm for the support of everyone and everyone including david duke but trump's insatiable appetite for violence carried oud. and that was the fall of 2016. what it has brought is it's brought the entire republican party to it's hands and knees. they're impotent. can't do anything about it anymore. if they decided today this is not how they want the country to be, it's too late. it's too late. if this is something i could find before i came on the air, do you know what the radicalized extremists found? they're awash in violent tactical instructions to exactly how to carry out retribution for their leader, donald trump. what do we do? >> first of all, you have to recognize all the elements of political radicalization to violence are in play here, right? he's playing on people's deep-seeded grievances, particularly when he gets the

federal government, unlike the new york case, you're playing into the same forces that go all the way back to waco, the fbi, the government overreach, conspiracy theories. trump is tapping into that and that is the kind of thing that radicalized individuals to violence and the guardrails around that could be credible people, instead of them creating guardrails, they're creating a permission structure for that violence. the other thing that worries me, nicole, is the existentialism for trump. if he doesn't win election, he could be looking at prison for a long time for any one of these crimes he's committed. it's one thing when you're winning but when you're losing and you feel you can't achieve your objectives through the normal political process, you might be tempted to turn to violence. that's something we've seen all over the world, not just the united states. so the conditions are set.

as you pointed out and mary pointed out, there's not much we can do to put that jeannie back in the bottle here. this has been simmering for years and getting to a higher and higher boiling point. i think you -- are there organized violent groups that we fear may try to be a part of some effort to disrupt the legal or democratic process in this country? second, what are the potential targets in the same way that the capitol was not fully secured on january 6th, are there targets in the judicial system and in terms of law enforcement that may be a focal point? it's extraordinary that we have to have this conversation but all can you do is mitigate risk at this point. you can't eliminate it. it's out there. he's unleashed this poison. we're going to be living with it from now until the election. you can try to mitigate risk. i would hope that at some point

more republicans are going to walk through the open door that has been provided for them by trump's own behavior to say this is enough. i think that still does matter a bit around the margins here. the more people calling this out and trying to draw lines the better. i do think we have to accept this is a dynamic where the normalization of grievance-based political violence is a part we're going to be dealing with from now until election day until 2024. >> it's an unbelievably bleak picture. a committee looked at trump's tweet, to come to washington and be wild and the groups that assembled there at his direction and it's come up in a lot of their defenses and trials. "rhetoric like this has consequences said the lead investigator for the house committee that investigated the january 6th attack on the capitol and trump's efforts to

remain in the white house after his presidency. people we interviewed for the january 6th investigation said they came to the capitol because politicians and the president told them to be there. politicians think when they say things it's just rhetoric but people listen to it and take it seriously. in this climate politicians need to realize this and be more responsible. did you find in this reporting that there was any more alarm to these comments coming from the folks that you cite, higgins and kari lake or was it more a trump story like ben's describing in. >> i think this is how they would react, the new normal of it. these are not people who sat down and read the indictment. this is how they were going to react whether the indictment was half as strong as it was or four times stronger than it was. this is the play book that they have. and they go back to it, as mary pointed out, because none of

this many have been held accountable for this. we know some folks, the lower level people on the ground have been held accountable, but politicians have not. and they go back to it because it's worked and been effective and donald trump has been able to weaponize his power in ways that i didn't think certainly when he left office in 2021 we would still be talking about today. because even though he's not in the white house, he still has a hold on this base in a way that he tries to harness it for his ends. and he did say on sunday that he wanted the protests to be peaceful, but even as you were saying putting, you know, it back in the bottle, even him saying that doesn't -- i'm not sure what that really changes. >> i mean, mary, if there's any of this that is counterproductive not to talk about, just stop me but is miami

safe tomorrow? >> um, you know, i know that we've been hearing, we've heard reporting from "the washington post" and elsewhere that law enforcement, federal and local are monitoring the situation, preparing for it. i think the federal courthouse will be well protected tomorrow. i don't think we're going to see some of the same mistakes that we saw on january 6th at the capitol with sort of not being adequately ready. but, you know, it's hard to prepare for things sometimes, particularly when lone actors -- you can almost -- as mike said, you can -- or maybe it was ben -- you can sometimes prepare for groups a little bit better than lone actors who might engage in sort of separate types of activity. one of the things that's really astonishing about this is when you step back and you think about what's happening here, just listening to this discussion about politicians encouraging violence because somebody has been charged with

crimes by a federal grand jury. every day across the country people are charged with crimes by federal grand juries, they're charged with crimes at the state level. we don't violently attack the courthouses and the judges. that's just something that, you know, has been very, very, very rarely that judges and those involved with our criminal legal system, prosecutor, et cetera, have been the victims of violence because we respect the system. and normally for the rule of law. that's what political leaders are supposed to have. so that they are not only calling for thinly veiled violence around tomorrow's judicial proceeding, they're disrespecting the law enforcement whose job is to protect public safety is a pretty astounding turn of event when you really back up and think about what's happening here. >> if you ask harry dimon and

the law enforcement officials who were charged with protecting the capitol on january 6th, they would say there's been none, no accountability. no one's going anywhere. when we come back, we'll have a live report from the miami courthouse as officials discuss the possibility for violent protest as the twice impeached and twice indicted and liable for defamation and sexual abuse is arraigned tomorrow. and how the indictment is playing around the republicans who say they want to beat him and win their party's nomination for president this time. it turns out it is once again, perhaps tragically, turning out to be a tragedy in terms of advocating for rule of law and antagonizing trump's vocal base. our political panel will join us for that later in the hour. "deadline white house" returns after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. go anyw.

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make no mistake about it. we're taking this event extremely serious. we know that there is a potential of things taking a turn for the worse but that's not the miami way. they are used to demonstrating and exercising the first amendment rights and they are incredibly respectful of law enforcement in miami. we are bringing enough resources to handle crowds from 5,000 to 50,000. >> this afternoon the police chief in miami speaking right

there about how seriously that city is preparing for the possibility of demonstrations tomorrow as donald trump heads to court. joining us justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian and, ken, your reporting has been extraordinary. i have been watching you around the clock. take me to today. the coverage, you don't have the comfort of any distance from it where that could possibly be with something happens. what is the mood on the ground there? >> well, nicole, i've seen a steady buildup of resources today and it really started to pick up today and barricades are going up and many more homeland security police and other officers watching the perimeter, bomb-sniffing dogs. we're also seeing reports from our colleagues in washington checking in with the department of homeland security and the fbi that they're really not seeing any credible threats in terms of

widespread violence or plans to engage in violent protests. i saw that from a private intelligence group that really predicted a lot of what happened before january 6th and was watching all the chatter on the donald and trying to warn the fbi. that group actually said not seeing any plans for violent protest. i think the real concern among some of the law enforcement folks i talk to is that some of this violent rhetoric, particularly among trump supporters, people like kari lake who talked about millions of nra members and, you know, other members of congress being on a war footing and even trump when he talks about the corrupt justice department saying they're really going after you, speaking to his followers, not just me. it only takes one or two unbalanced individuals to be influenced by that to do something drastic. and we saw that with the person who attacked paul pelosi at the speaker of the house's home and

the person who drove into a barrier. this building is much more secure than the u.s. capitol. it was built to be secure whereas the u.s. capitol has many entrances, sort of the people's house. it's in a huge city block, though the street here is still open to the public and cars driving by. it feels like the authorities are confident they can secure this building and prevent widespread kind of protest-related violence. but the other kind of violence is really unpredictable and hard to stop. >> mary, let me bring you in on what ken is reporting and just throw one more piece of reporting at you, mary. to ken's point, this is what the "times" reports. the fbi has been the target of much criticism from far right republican lawmakers and the former president's supporters. fbi field offices are reporting all threats related to their personnel and facilities to the

washington headquarters in an unusual step. they said the fbi was trying to get a handle on the number of threat directed to the agency around the country. it wasn't the fbi field office anywhere in florida, it was an fbi field office thousands of miles away. how do you protect the institution, which may not be targeted in the geography where trump happens to be but it is the institution maligned by trump and his supporters, in this case the court and the fbi. >> what you can't do is determine where there might be these one-off attacks or one-off incidents all around the country. there are many, many fbi field houses, there are many, many other courthouses, there's local law enforcement and there's, you know, department of justice prosecutors, u.s. attorneys in 94 offices around the country. so, you know, that's -- i think that's a great point for you to make is that, you know, we've

got to be looking for other things, too. and citizens and individuals, residents who hear about anything that might suggest anyone is planning some sort of violence against law enforcement or others on tuesday or any other day but related to this indictment, you know, really should take that seriously because it won't necessarily be in miami. i would note a couple of other things, too. a lot of what i'm seeing with working just today even with private researchers suggests that a lot of in the far right social media milieu, there's a lot of talk about sort of honey pots, like feds being among the crowd. if you see certain people that look this way or that way, that's probably a fed in the crowd. so that sort of heightens the risk of there being violence within the crowd, even if it's not directed at the courthouse or officials who are very obvious think there in uniform. there's also some organizing of a counterprotest or really a

countercelebration, i guess in some ways, in miami so some of threat as well can come from protesters and counter protesters to engage. it's more than just protecting the courthouse, it's people exercising their first amendment rights and trying to think pro actively about where other threats might be. i suspect the fbi is taking precautions all over in all of its offices and not just in miami. and the same with the department of justice. >> ben, there's an echo to after january 6th around the 20th everyone was extremely confident in the same way ken is describing in working in an inner agency manner around the actual inauguration and a lot of the concern about the 50 state capitols. i remember one week when there was news stories, but there was a heightened threat alert against nara, something i'd

never seen before, against the fbi, against the d.o.j. and i think the irs was in that same swoop of targeted agencies. the risk of working in the federal government with trump and his allies maligning you, threatening you and attacking you has never been higher. again, as a country and as candidates for office, the republicans running against him are running to oversee the federal government, these people that all work for them, can you protect these institutions with one of the country's two political parties? >> i mean, not entirely. one difference point about miami and i don't mean to diminish the risks tomorrow because they're very real, is that part of what we had on january 6th was a build up. and if you look at the more violent groups, the proud boys, the oath keepers, those types of people, they were able to be planning over a period of weeks because they knew that was a date circled on a calendar, if

you will, whereas this is a more rapid event. but i think the broader dynamic that you describe is one that we are really going to have to wrestle with because the reality today is you want good people to go into politics. you want good people to run for office. you want good people to sign up to be in the justice department or at the fbi or to be civil servants at organizations like nara or the irs. and right now there are a lot of disincentives. and i think part of what you have to realize is that's a strategy. that's a strategy to try to defang the federal government, it's a strategy to try to crowd people out of local politics so that it's just maga people running for school boards or people that are trying to get into state legislatures in certain parts of the country. so i think that there needs to be like essentially an effort to support people that are in those positions, to make them feel assured that their security matters. you can security facilities, you can secure fbi field offices,

but you can also provide support to people for doing their jobs and to point out the positive contributions that these people make to our security and well being. but we're in a very volatile period. it feels like everything is building to a head before this election. it's hard to imagine trump coming back in four years. i think we have to tend to what is happening underneath the surface of all these politics and make sure we're positioning ourselves to come out stronger because the loss of elections have not gone this way for trump, this has not been a winning play book. the more the people deliver that message at the ballot box and the more we stand by the kinds of people that allow for to us have the freedom and well being we had in this country, the better chance we have of emerging on the other end as a stronger, more resilient company. >> live from miami, thank you all so much for spending time with us on this story today. we are grateful. when we come back, why those

republicans running against the disgraced ex-president for their party's presidential nomination are still -- still to this moment, 5:35 in the east loath and scared to attack him. our political panel will join us next. don't go anywhere. ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪

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rafael: they're called community schools. cecily: it's the hub of the neighborhood. grant: in addition to academic services, we look at serving the whole family. cecily: no two community schools are alike. john: many of our classes are designed around our own students' cultures. kenny: it's about working with the parents. david: the educators, the parents, the students. rafael: we all come together to better meet the needs of our kids and our families. jackie: it's been really powerful. terry: i'm excited to go to work every day. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. we don't have to tell any of you that from go donald trump's

time as a american political figure has been marked by scandal after scandal after scandal, after impeachment, after scandal, you know what i'm talking about, the cascade of opportunities, really off ramps for the republican party to say enough, we can do better. as the "access hollywood" tape showed and didn't have the effect, the man literally summoned a mob to attack the u.s. capitol and the members inside of it and still the republican party and the members held firm. this afternoon sadly should we be surprised elected republicans are by and large falling into line behind trump. perhaps they're familiar with the latest polling that indicates republican voters are more concerned about the indictment being politically motivated than they are about possible national security breaches or implications. that conclusion brought to you by the party who made "lock her up" their theme song on the

campaign trail in reference of course to hillary clinton. even republican candidates for president who have everything to gain from trump finally being held accountable for his obvious and flagrant crimes, they seem frightened still of making any honest criticism of him. >> i think there needs to be one standard of justice in this country. let's enforce it on everybody and make sure we all know the rules. >> i deeply troubled to see this indictment move forward. >> we can't protect democrats while targeting and hunting republicans. this case is a serious case with serious allegations. but in america you're still innocent until proven guilty. >> i think jack smith said that, too. joining our conversation, democratic pollster and former senator is with us.

>>well, the interesting thing is you have people slipping and sliding. like today just this afternoon nikki haley slipped around again. she's a shape shifter and she shifted again this afternoon and said if these allegations were true, it put our military in serious jeopardy. so she can't make up her mind. and the one that really strikes me as weird is lindsey graham because if you notice what he says, he keeps saying republicans believe blah, blah, blah, blah. americans believe blah, blah, blah, blah. and that poll shows he's right. but you know why they believe that, nicole? they believe it because people like lindsay won't tell them the

truth. all lindsay has to do is finish that sentence, americans believe blah, blah, blah, but they're wrong because the facts are very clear as laid out in this indictment. >> carl, let me show you what she's talking about. this is nikki haley's second or third stab reacting to the indictment. >> if this indictment is true, if what it says is actually the case, president trump was incredibly reckless with our national security. more than that, i'm a military spouse. my husband's about to deploy this weekend. this puts all of our military men and women in danger if you are going to talk about what our military is capable of or how we would go about invading or doing something with one of our enemies. and if that's the case, it's reckless, it's frustrating and it causes problems. >> so it seems that nikki haley

is distinguishing herself as maybe the only one who can read a poll. and what republican voters are starting to see is you can't be pro law enforcement and pro coup and you can't be pro military and pro leave unclassified documents in your bathroom. maybe not the trump base but the swath of voters that you need to win a general election include republicans who are against the republican position on abortion, as bans that eliminate exception in the case of rape, incest and the life of the mother, nikki haley is on the wrong side of that. they oppose these voter restriction laws, making voter easier has the support of upward of 70 to 80% of all voters and this may be the one thing that we say, ooh, we can't be pro cop and pro insurrection, we can't be pro military and pro leaving classified stuff near the toilet. >> look, i think there is a

general election tact here and there's also a primary one. if you look at the vast majority of americans in the abc polling as well as cbs polling, you see the vast majority of americans actually do have a problem with the way the president was handling the documents. the majority of republicans don't. but at some point, nicole, it is what comes first, the chicken or the egg. and while nikki has flip flopped in this space, i'm going to have to give her a little credit for now actually doing what i think is strategically the smart thing. at some point, look, i don't know a lot about a lot of things but i am pretty good at campaign politics. at least somewhat good at campaign politics. and i got to tell you i've been through enough primaries to understand that you're not going to beat the candidate in front of you while rallying the base to that candidate in front of you. and so i don't think -- i don't look at any of those other candidates in the republican

primary serious. desantis isn't serious, tim scott isn't serious. none of those candidates are serious by beating donald trump. you have to go out there and beat donald trump to get ahead of him and none of those candidates seem to have the stomach to do this. you're not going to get ahead of the person in front of you in all the polling. last i checked donald trump was leading the field by 36 points, plus 36 points. you're not going to get in front of that person by soft handling his most toxic issues and soft handling his -- what is potentially his downfall. so the idea that you're going to get in front of donald trump or you're going to beat donald trump by rallying to his support and rallying to his defense around these issues, you're not a serious candidate for the republican nomination and that's coming real clear to me. a lot of these figures, they're

running for second place, nicole, because they certainly aren't running a race to beat donald trump. >> i've been trying to figure out how to sanitize the expression we used to have. the closest i can come is if you're kissing his ass, you can't get ahead of him. the thing that tim and mike and ron, getting wrong is that the dynamic will be static. if you worked on the campaign, it's never static. you have to have the campaign that can adapt to the event that she doesn't see coming. he's been charged for leaving classified stuff next to the toilet. we know smith will apply the law to trump. he doesn't give a hoot who he is. what if the evidence points and what if he pierces that sort of attorney/client privilege in that investigation? these guys don't know what they don't know. and what they don't know may include very clear and understandable evidence of planning a coup against the government and being at a minimum indifferent to the assassination of mike pence,

cornel. >> and if you are not going to use this to disqualify him, then why are you running? what are you going to disqualify him for? all these indictments, all these issues of corruption? nicole, these are things at a normal time, you and i have been campaign people, clarence has been a campaign person, we use this to disqualify the person they're running against. they're not doing that. >> we're going to push on this open door. no one is going anywhere. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll all be right back. be righ.

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because breathing should be beautiful. we're back with cornell and claire, so gary tweeted this, a stack of well-placed "new york times" headlines, trump insights mob, rampage in capitol leads to evacuations, impeached after insighting -- inciting rampage. the indictment is the closest one. it's a complicated conspiracy to communicate, even to frothed up trump base keeps conspireing against trump. where do you think sort of the string breaks? >> well, i don't remember who, someone today said how important it was that we televise this trial, and i think that's really

true. i think it's really important for the people of this country to see the evidence as it's presented. the vast majority of the people who are choosing not to believe what all of those headlines represent, and what is as close to them as the nose on their face, they're refuse to go -- refusing to believe it because they're being told something different and they're not looking into the facts for themselves. trump cease indictment is based on his own words, trump's indictment is based on document evidence. he was indicted because he refused to cooperate in returning those documents and went out of his way to hide and lie and ob obfuscate and brag at them and expose them to people who could have used them to hurt

our country. that's why he was indicted. it has nothing to do with keeping a document, it has to do with what he did after he kept them. it's so different than the other cases. if the republicans with going to put a cocoon around him and protect him, as cornell pointed out, what i think they're trying to do is auditioning to be vice president. they're all trying to be his number two, literally his number two. i don't think nikki haley can figure out what she wants, but i think for the majority of them, they're just fine being number two, and i think desantis is trying to warm up and maybe beat him, but then be trump 2.04 years from now. >> that's a scary picture, but i'm sure you're right. and claire mccaskill, cornell belcher, thank you so much for spending time with us today. we have to sneak in another quick break. we'll be right back. sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. a big trip. travel pass, on.

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what the plan is for tomorrow so you can plan, and the disgraced ex-president makes his first appearance in a florida courtroom on federal charges, we'll have live coverage on msnbc all day long. we will be here at 4:00 p.m. eastern for "deadline white house", and tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern, rachel, joy, me and the whole gang, there we all are up there, will be here together to break down what happened in court, what happened in the country and where the case goes from right here. another break for us. we'll be right back. here. another break for us we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary and historic times.