>> reporter: absolutely. he was still in power right before he died. he was part of the right wing coalition that won the last elections a few months ago. he's been elected three times prime minister, 1994. during that time he was also king maker of many other prime ministers and he was at the top of the game right before he died on monday, chris. >> claudio lavanga, always good to see you my friend, thank you for that. that's going to do it for us this hour. joining us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday from 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. our coverage continues with "katy turr reports" right now. donald trump has pleaded not guilty. the only court case is on the

docket for nauta. will it be in front of judge aileen cannon or will she self-recuse? we know what the prosecution is arguing, that donald trump took the papers when he had no right to take the papers, that he kept papers even when he was asked repeatedly to give them back, that he lied about what he had, and that he threatened national security, putting lives at risk and the safety of this nation in jeopardy. what else might jack smith's team have, and why wasn't bedminster a bigger part of the indictment? meanwhile, what is donald trump's team going to argue? we'll lay out what will likely come up in pre-trial motions. you heard one of trump's former lawyers tease him yesterday when he talked about prosecutorial misconduct. what else will they argue? and what or should we say who is donald trump's biggest liability? the legal process is just beginning. and so is arguably the political

process, just beginning right now. donald trump is already trying to turn this case into a political asset. but how long does the post indictment bump last? and does it have the same staying power when his political allies and rivals start telling the public that what donald trump did was not only wrong but that he did it to himself. joining me now from bedminster, new jersey, where donald trump is spending the summer, garrett haake. here with me on set, nbc senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett, and political correspondent steve kornacki who's at the big board. laura, we have seen what the prosecution has initially. obviously they're not going to put everything in the initial indictment. were there any hints, though, in that indictment about what might be coming? >> one place i think we will soon start to see some hints is in the witness list, as we heard from the judge yesterday, who by himself decided to order mr. trump and mr. nauta not to talk

to each other about the case, and to order the former president not to talk to any witnesses about this case. the defense team said, wait a minute, we think some of these people work for him or even possibly his attorneys, how are they not going to talk about the case. and judge said basically, i don't care, he's going to order it, but we have to see who the government puts on that list, and who the government puts on that list could be revealing, in terms of who they talk to, who they think is important for him not to talk to. and possibly even people we didn't even know they had talked to. >> when will we see this list? >> hopefully very soon. you can imagine i check the docket very frequently in this case. >> every moment, you'll get a heads up. what about donald trump's first line of defense? what are we going to see the first motion? >> i know that the public positioning that we have seen both from his allies and lawyers who go on tv is all of this talk about the weaponization of the justice department and prosecutorial misconduct. ththink, the legal

argument you're going to see. my first argument would be keep all of that evidence from his attorney, evan corcoran, out. the jury should not see any of that evidence. it was not admissible. i don't care what a judge in d.c. said, i'm now in front of a new judge in florida, and my first job is to keep all of that out because it's devastating, and the jury cannot possibly see that evidence where he's trying to convince his lawyer to pluck out some documents before they go to the government. they have to keep that out. >> the crime-fraud exception, when you can pierce attorney/client privilege, is there any argument there that the piercing was not justified, that the judge was wrong about it? i remember the judge's ruling was pretty definitive. of course there's something bad going on here, and yes, this can be used. >> it's still under seal. that case is still under seal because the grand jury is technically supposed to stay secret it. we haven't seen all of the evidence beryl howell

had iner. >> will it be unsealed? >> it remains to be seen whether that grand jury is still actually active, if they want to bring any cases in front of that grand jury or that grand jury decides to indict anything, for right now, it's still active. >> let's talk about the legal team. donald trump is trying to get more lawyers down there in south florida. there's been reporting about how he's having trouble doing so. he has lost a few lawyers. is there a problem with representing donald trump that maybe just goes beyond donald trump himself as a difficult person to defend? >> it's one of the most curious parts of this case is that somebody who is facing this amount of legal jeopardy, who occupied the highest position in the land, who can get presumably the best attorneys money can buy doesn't have a full slate of lawyers behind him, a full bench to be able to go up against the u.s. government. it's just stunning, if you think about it. but one of the things that the reporting out there shows is that one of the people who's been serving as sort of an

in-house, sort of cattle gather of sorts, boris epshteyn, somebody serving as kind of quasi lawyer, at least the reporting out there suggests that he has been sort of one of the blockades and has managed to sort of alienate other lawyers on the team. we have heard this from tim parlatore on the record. he has suggested that has been an issue, and there has been concern or at least questions raised about that's why two of his other attorneys resigned just hours before that indictment. >> does boris have experience in these sorts of prosecutions? has he defended anybody that has been federally prosecuted before that we know of? >> not that we have seen. >> garrett, let's talk about the political side of this. donald trump obviously gave a speech last night. what are you hearing from his team about why they think this might be, politically speaking, good for donald trump? >> reporter: his team is more confident in their political standing on this issue than they are on the legal standing and part of that is because they now have a dog eared well worn playbook for how to handle

indictments. they saw what they were able to do after the new york indictment back in april, and they're trying to recreate it here, both from a political standpoint, pure messaging, the idea that donald trump is a victim here, here's being targeted, solely because he's the front runner in the republican primaries. that's a message they have been putting out to conservative voters in a speech donald trump gave last night and every other remark he's done that i have covered going back to the moment of the indictment. donald trump is as good as any politician i have covered at making his victimhood into a fundraising tool, urging his supporters to come and defend him. it's worked so well that he has even had some of his opponents in the republican primary defending him publicly. his team feels pretty good about where they're at in the political space right now. it is charted territory for them. they feel like they know how to operate here. >> let's look at the numbers. we can get the anecdotal numbers from talking to people out

there. steve, when you do the polling, how is donald trump faring this indictment? >> yeah, i mean, a couple of ways of looking at it here. if you ask the question here, what's in the indictment, the idea that trump illegally removed classified documents, stored them at mar-a-lago, 62% of all americans, a clear majority, say they find that to be believable, but now you take a look here among republicans, different story. there are about a third of republicans who find that to be believable. nearly 60%, though, say they don't find that to be believable. among the all important block of independent voters, again, the vast majority there say they find that to be believable. if you ask folks the question, would that be disqualifying. should that be disqualifying for trump to be president again, 50% of americans land on agree, that that should be disqualifying. again, that's only 17% of republicans but a majority of independents where the numbers start to get a little more

complicated, though, is look at trump's framing of this. he's saying that this indictment is politically motivated. when you put that statement in a reuters ipsos poll, when you put that statement to the voters, half of them also agree with that, agree with the idea that the indictment is politically motivated. the overwhelming majority of republicans also agree with that. when you ask it this way, the statement that the elite class is targeting trump, they don't want him to win in 2024, a plurality, 46% of all voters agree with that statement and overwhelmingly, 83 to 9% of republicans agree with that statement. you go from on the one hand seeing a wide sense that what's in that indictment is believable, but then when you start getting to these arguments that trump's making about political motivation and some aspects of sort of the legal system, whatever you want to call it, out to get him, you do find some purchase there with voters as well. >> let's talk about what might

come in the future, though, and garrett, we've heard some of his political rivals say, hey, this was not okay. there's been some movement there on the campaign trail. his political allies as well, bill barr has come out and said this is indefensible, and then we heard from mike pompeo, who had been on donald trump's side staunchly over the years. obviously worked in the administration. here is what he told fox news about the indictment. >> trump had classified document where is he shouldn't have had them, and then when given the opportunity to return them, he chose not to do that. that's inconsistent with protecting america's soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. if the allegations are true, some of these were pretty serious, important documents. >> do these sorts of statements worry donald trump's team especially as we get closer to the first debate? is there any talk about whether donald trump will show up at that debate, especially considering that it's pretty clear that chris christie will use this to go after him on the debate stage?

>> reporter: yeah, let me separate those questions a little bit, katy, first on how much it bothers donald trump or his team. i do think they are aware of this issue at the margins. that's why you see trump react so strongly when allies or enemies do speak out about this in those terms. the way in which he went after bill barr starting sunday afternoon, and continued to do so through much of the day, really, until he walked into the courtroom yesterday was very telling, going after barr in, you know, nasty personal terms, that's always a tell for me that something that that person is saying has stuck in the mind of donald trump and sticks in the mind of his allies. about the debates, i mean, trump and his team have made pretty clear, he's not interested in debating. he's not interested in doing so in august, and not interested in doing so if he leads the field by a margin. you've seen chris christie taunting donald trump in his media appearances saying he's afraid to come on stage with me. he's afraid i'll make these arguments against him and he won't have a counter argument.

expect a lot of mind games from now to the last week in august when the first debate is scheduled. there will be a very personal element to trump deciding whether or not to show up, particularly if his lead in the polls nationally is as wide as it is now. >> christie believes he might be able to get under his skin. steve, let's talk about the future in 2024 and what this might do to donald trump's political standing. where is there squishiness in the polls? where might he be vulnerable? >> i would say the general election right now more than the republican primary. garrett's getting at it right here. we've had a number of polls come out since word of this indictment broke late last week, and what you're looking at is the poll average, the real clear politics poll average. there was one an hour ago from quinnipiac that was thrown into this that looks almost exactly what you're seeing on the screen. donald trump nearly two to one over his nearest competitor, ron desantis. donald trump over 50% in a crowded field here, over 50%

support from republicans. nobody else but desantis outside of mid single digits at best, so just no indication here. in fact, this quinnipiac poll i'm talking about that came out in the last hour. they had a survey out three weeks ago, too. so they have a before and after indictment look, and no change. no change. so trump's standing among republicans. there is no evidence yet and in a week or so, it's not been quite a week since this indictment became news, no indication he's taking a hit there. where you do see potential for a hit is the general election, that quinnipiac poll, again, i'm mentioning in the last hour, it tested biden versus trump. it has biden at 48. it has trump at 44. when quinnipiac took the same test three weeks ago, pre-indictment, it was biden 46, trump 44. if there is a real shift there, even if two points away from

donald trump, that could be significant in a general election. but, i mean, that's the level we're talking about right here. no visible change for all intents and purposes in the republican primary race and the general election. maybe that's just noise or maybe a shift of a point or two. >> maybe 10,000 votes in a single state. what i do see that's new on there as well, steve kornacki, chris christie is on the list. he wasn't there before. >> there have been a couple of polls. the one on the quinnipiac that had christie at 4%. the debate stage, the criteria of having three polls where you're at 1% or more starting july 1st. certainly the polls we're seeing this week, from that standpoint, christie got to be feeling good about hitting that threshold. that was a question before he got in the race. >> steve kornacki, laura jarrett, and garrett haake, thank you very much. what to expect from donald trump from a legal perspective

as he goes against south florida's rocket docket. and for the first time in a year, the fed isn't hiking interest rates. and later on in the hour, newly confirmed chair of president biden's council of economic advisers, jared bernstein, you remember him. he joins me from the white house. we're going to ask him about constant prediction that is a recession is coming. is one? we are back in 60 seconds. is one we are back in 60 seconds. the first unlimited plan where she chooses exactly what she wants, and only pays for what she needs. she picks her perks, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. starting a new chapter can be the most thrilling thing in the world. there's an abundance of reasons to get started. how far we take an idea is a question of willpower.

because progress... is a matter of character. (vo) sadie switched to verizon. now she has myplan. the first unlimited plan where she chooses exactly what she wants, and only pays for what she needs. she picks her perks, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. joining me now is former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. i want to start with the question of attorney/client privilege, whether evan corcoran's notes will be admissible in trial. trump's team is going to file a motion to try to get those taken off. what's the likelihood that it will work? >> it's tough to assess, katy.

a lot of it will depend on how judge cannon decides to view the legal issues involved here, and of course there's the wide open question of where she stands on this case. in reality, the former president's lawyers will have a good argument to make here. it's a little bit complicated and inside of the weeds, but because this earlier decision saying that the notes could be used came in the process of a grand jury investigation, it's not what's called law of the case. law of the case essentially means that once there's been a ruling in a case that's been affirmed on appeal, the parties can't revisit it. you can't endlessly litigate those same issues in one says, so that would hold here, if perhaps, there had been a post indictment decision, but because we're talking about a grand jury decision made by a judge in another circuit, judge cannon may be able to reopen this can of worms, especially if trump's lawyers can come forward with

new facts that judge howell didn't have the chance to consider in washington or if they can come up with some sort of an argument that would manifest and justice would be worked on the former president. in other words, this one is wide open, too close to call. >> when you look at the indictment and see what jack smith's team is putting forward about, you know, what they were able to gather from evan corcoran's notes, and the idea of take these boxes, bring them to your hotel room, pluck them out if there's anything bad in them. does that look on the face of it to you like a reason to pierce attorney/client privilege? >> it does. i mean, the government asks us to draw the inference that trump was asking his lawyers to commit a crime on his behalf. if they can prove the allegations in the complaint, that looks pretty firm. the question is how will judge cannon view that? will she do what appears to be the logical thing based on these sort of allegations and permit the government to continue to use this evidence or will she

rule against them, and that, of course, would force the choice the government would have to decide whether to go ahead and appeal her. this evidence looks like it's critical at least on the obstruction side of the case. it's likely that they would take an appeal and that might even give them the opportunity to ask the court of appeals to have her reassigned or to have the case reassigned to a different judge on remand. >> forgive me for dwelling on this because i really want to get it straight in my own head. asking your lawyer to take them out, isn't there an argument to be made there where you're trying to get legal advice from your lawyer, and trying to figure out where the law is, where the line is. is it enough just to say, i want you to take these boxes and documents out, that alone, just the question is enough to trigger the crime fraud exception? >> look, i think a defendant, or in this case, a former president looking at a subpoena is entitled to ask his lawyers, do we have to comply with this, can you pull things out.

the question is how far beyond that the evidence goes, and we haven't seen the transcriptions of attorney evan corcoran's notes. the government, you know, was in front of a good judge, a conscientious judge in the district of columbia. she's not someone who's given to going out on a ledge. the fact that she ruled in the government's favor, her memorandum opinion is still sealed, we don't know exactly what's in it. we do know her ruling, but it suggests to me that there is more than what you're suggesting within the government's body of evidence. >> how would they know this? how would prosecutors even have an idea that this was happening? >> it's a very good question. it suggests that there could be other cooperators, some of the allegations in the complaint strongly suggest that other employees at mar-a-lago have cooperated, that there may have been some access to phones. you know, it's just tough to say, katy, it's the grand jury process at work. >> we'll have to see what comes out at trial, when and if this

eventually does go to trial. joyce vance, thank you very much. and shortly after donald trump was ordered to pay $5 million in damages to e. jean carroll, he went on cnn and called her a quote whack job. he also slammed her rape story as quote made up. those comments could now come back to bite donald trump again. manhattan judge lewis kaplan granted carroll's request to amend her original defamation suit against the former president to include those disparaging remarks, upping the damages she is seeking to at least $10 million. it all comes less than a week after donald trump and his lawyers asked for a new trial calling the $5 million verdict that she initially got grossly excessive. donald trump continues to deny raping or even abusing carroll, and has moved to appeal the verdict. and coming up, gas prices are down. a dozen eggs costs less. but are household bills really going down as well? plus, what kevin mccarthy

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everything's going up. >> everything's going up? >> yes, prices with food. >> went down a little bit. not much. >> not enough? >> no, not at all. >> explain that a little bit. >> it's still expensive. we're still being overpriced. >> reporter: when the government report is saying that prices are increasing at a slower pace than they did a year ago, what do you say to that, do you feel it? >> no, man. no. when i saw that milk is $7, no. dude, $7 milk. >> shoppers in chicago talking to our correspondent shaq brewster about how the prices at the grocery store do not feel like they are falling. some saying they're going up.

that is despite a new report that shows inflation is falling. the consistent drop in prices over the last year is at least partly behind the fed's decision this afternoon to leave interest rates alone for the first time in 15 months. so where is that disconnect between what data is showing us and what americans are feeling? joining me now is nbc news business and data reporter, brian cheung. part of it is inflation is falling, but it doesn't mean prices are back down to where they were before inflation started to skyrocket? >> the nuance is that while inflation came in lower than the rate of inflation last year but it's still a plus for percent. that means prices are still going up year over year but by a smaller amount than they were in the earlier parts. >> which does not feel good when you walk into a grocery store. >> the challenge is that the federal reserve has been raising interest rates to deliberately try to slow the economy so there's not as much economic activity so that producers might try to meet the buyers in the middle by lowering prices or at

least not raising them as much as they have been. but the fed can't do much about erasing price increases that have been put in place over the past few years. what they hope to do is make inflation come down to a reasonable level where wage gains are still a little bit higher so people can play catch up while wages are higher than inflation. >> they're trying to find the goldilocks line which is extremely difficult. we're waiting again now, we'll be waiting for the next one. what will go into the decision to restart the increase? >> jay powell who just sfoek spoke over the last hour, it will depend on how the data comes in. it's the first time they haven't taken action to further raise interest rates in a year and a half is because they want to see the future inflation reports and see if they can get a little bit closer to their target. that 4% figure that i was mentioning, they want to see that closer to 2%. the challenge is other measures of inflation which the fed prefers to look at show inflation a little bit higher

than that, so it's not yet mission accomplished. they want to see the data come in before they decide. >> it's got bad juju. >> brian cheung, thank you very much. in his first interview since being confirmed as chair of the economic council of advisers, jared bernstein, thank you so much for being with us. >> i'm glad to be here today. >> let's talk about the future, or try to predict it. we hear about looming recession. we have been talking about this it feels like for a year. is it coming? >> well, i think if you look at current conditions, they're pretty solid, and i start from the perspective of theerns beca about me right to the job market. when you have a job market whe for about a year and a half, and we're actually seeing not just nominal wage gains but real wage

gains, wage gains beating inflation, that's obviously a good thing for households, it's a good thing for kitchen table issues, pushes back on some of the inflation you were just talking about, not all of it. we've got more work to do. we know that. that also helps to keep the kind of fly wheel of consumer spending going, more labor demand, a virtuous cycle. i heard chair powell talk about a path to a soft landing. that's something we should all pay attention to. >> you say we got more work to do. what does that work look like? >> well, i think implementing the president's agenda, which is very sensitive to these aspects of the economy, particularly when it comes to inflation reduction. lower costs for prescription drugs, lower costs for insulin. much more domestic production, meaning improvements in supply. you know, for a while there, we had a real spike in goods prices because there was so much demand

and also supply was so crimped post pandemic. supply chains are largely back to where they were pre-pandemic, and that helps put downward pressure on that part of inflation, as we implement both the infrastructure act and the inflation reduction act, that will also over the longer term contribute to the economy's supply side. >> you're talking about supply changes. i have to ask you about what's going on on the i-95 and the overpass collapse. so much of our gdp crosses down that corridor. what is it going to --t's the expectation of what that collapse will do to the economy and to the supply chain. what are you preparing for? >> first of all, this has been an area that we've really focused on over the past few days. there are others who have been to the site, the president has been kept up to the minute on the briefing there. we don't have a quantitative estimate yet of the economic impact, though it's certainly something we're going to look into. i think the broader point here is when this president came into

the white house, he wanted to make infrastructure, you know, not just a catch line, but something that we really did something about. now, this tragic event obviously came too late for that. we've got to make sure that these investments are flowing into the system with as much speed and efficiency as we can to avoid situations like this in the future. >> what's your expectation for inflation as we go forward? do you expect that -- and i know you're not involved with the fed, but do you expect that the fed will start raising rates again? >> i'm not going to get into granular comments on federal reserve policy regard interest rates. i think the figure you showed earlier shows a very consistent trend in cpi growing more slowly. so, you know, it's down by more than half from where it peaked a year ago. by the way, the producer price index came out this morning. that's actually been negative three out of the past four months, and the reason i raise that, it's kind of arcane and in

the weeds. at a time like this, input prices, intermediate prices, prices that go into production, versus spending are easing, that would continue to put downward pressure on prices and continue that favorable trend you showed. one other point on housing, we do think that one area where federal reserve interest rate hikes really shows up quite quickly is in dampening demand in the housing sector, and there we expect in the second half of this year, housing prices to start easing as well. they get a hefty weight in the price index. that should also help the trend. >> the consumer price index is a cpi for anybody who might be curious. talk to me or talk to somebody who's walking into a grocery store right now, and they see that eggs are down, but they're still more expensive than they were a year ago. what should they expect going forward, and should they expect any direct relief from the government in terms of their grocery bills, which are really just painful for anybody who does shopping for themselves or

for god forbid, a family of four? >> let me answer that in two ways, first of all, yes, we're going to, as i mentioned, continue our campaign to help ease prices for kitchen table commodities like the ones you have just mentioned, i mean, the price of eggs went way up, but has actually come down back to where it was around a year ago. where it was a year ago is a bit elevated, we would like to see more progress there. by the way, that was very much a function of avian flu, which has largely come out of that system, so that kind of one-time idiosyncratic problem seems to be at least somewhat resolved. i think there's another point here we need to start talking about. when i come back, we can get deeper into this. let me raise it here. one of the key answers to your question that may seem tangential but isn't, is real wage gains, that is what's most important to consumers, yes, of course, we would love to see prices coming down, and i mean that as separate and apart from

slower inflation, but more realistically over time, what we really want to see is wages beat inflation. if real wages are growing, it means that the consumer can buy, that her paycheck goes further relative to prices. so for the first time in yesterday's cpi inflation report, for the first time in a long time, year over year wages grew in real terms by 2/10 of a percent, so not a ton, but when nominal wage growth is beating inflation, that's another very important way to provide relief to working households. >> jared bernstein, thank you very much for coming on, and congratulations, again, on the confirmation. >> thank you so much, look forward to continuing our conversations. >> we'll have you back as soon as you say yes, sir. coming up next, the house gop standoff is over. what did kevin mccarthy give up to get things moving again? plus, things are happening at d.c.'s federal courthouse, who our nbc news team spotted

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hard right republicans have agreed to stand down on their week long blockade of the house floor. so why? and what does speaker kevin mccarthy have to give up to get them to play ball? joining me now is punch bowl news cofounder and msnbc political contributor, jake sherman. so answer me the why and what,

jake? >> so katy, we're going to be back here in about 13 or 14 weeks at the end of september, after we've got through the summer, talking about the real prospect of a government shut down because what mccarthy did is he had a deal with president joe biden to set spending levels at a certain level, budget caps they're called. conservatives, let's not call them conservatives, the hard line republicans have said that they want to set spending even lower. mccarthy had to say, sure, we'll try to set spending lower, so you're going to have the house writing spending bills to a certain level, the senate writing spending bills to another level, and then those two entities trying to get a deal in the middle, which by the way, hard line republicans don't want. so we are staring down a very serious spending battle at the end of this month, and that's what mccarthy had to agree to after agreeing to a spending level with joe biden, had to

say, actually, we're going to try to go even lower. >> all right. so what happens when he's not able to do that? >> reporter: that's a good question. >> maybe he will be able to do that, but what happens if he's not able to do that? >> reporter: the government will shut down. here's the problem, katy, here's the problem we're seeing every single day with 10 to 12 hard line republicans mostly in the house freedom caucus. they don't believe their first offer in a legislative negotiation should ever be cut back on. they think their first offer should be their best offer, usually in negotiating you aim high, and then you end up in the middle. they don't believe in that, and they blame mccarthy. never mind that they have one branch of congress, and they don't have the presidency. they think that they should cause crises to achieve their ends. >> it's not like they have the whole party on their side, either, there are a lot of republicans that out number them that do want to see compromise or don't want to see the hard

line stances that they're taking on the far right of the party, so how do you go to congress if you're unwilling to compromise? is this why you need a bigger majority? >> reporter: exactly. this is 5% of house republicans. 5%, katy, that held up the bill, held up the floor last week and shut it down. and 5% of republicans that have said we want a new deal with kevin mccarthy, not the deal that we made in january, but rather a new governing agreement. this is just paralysis and frankly, it's not logical to the n degree, and by the way, it's not only government funding. we wrote this last week or this week, they all meld together at this point. the faa needs to be reauthorized, the farm bill, which is a hugely important bill, deals with s.n.a.p. and all sort of other issues. fisa, the nation's surveillance laws. pandemic preparedness authority, all of these policies, except

for fisa, which is the end of the year all come to a head on september 30th. this is a big deal. >> it's not just the house, jake, it's what's happening in the senate as well. you have tommy tuberville blocking army promotions, and j.d. vance who's going to be blocking nominations and promotions within the doj, did i get that right? >> reporter: they do. they could force schumer to take valuable floor time confirming these people. they could hold that up by objecting. if chuck schumer wanted to, he could confirm all 250 defense department and military flag officers one by one. that would take up an insane amount of time, and the same with doj, which is what j.d. vance is trying to do, so, yes, it could be done. practically, no, it would take a really long time. and this is government these days, katy. it's very irrational at times. >> jake sherman, thank you very

much. >> thanks. coming up next, while all of our eyes were on donald trump's arraignment in miami yesterday, another grand jury was meeting again in washington, d.c. who showed up? who these men are and what they might have been talking about. e might have been talking about. pantene's pro-vitamin formula repairs hair. as well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene. (vo) sadie switched to verizon. now she has myplan. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. the first unlimited plan where she chooses exactly what she wants, and only pays for what she needs. she picks her perks, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon.

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federal court house to be arraigned. back in washington, another grand jury investigating the january 6th attack and donald trump's attempts to stay in office appeared to remain in session. michael mcdonald, a close trump political ally and jim degraffenreid, the state's party vice chair entering the d.c. federal courthouse. both served as fake electors, signing certification documents that claimed donald trump won in their state even though he had lost. joining me now is nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly, so, ryan, tell us what you know? >> reporter: we know this is a significant investigation. obviously we had mike pence testify before the grand jury just a little over a month ago, and this is a pretty significant move

so, i think that's a good way to think about this. in cases like this, we only get really these little visions of what exactly is happening in these grand jury proceedings. and yesterday was a big indication of that where we saw a little peek into what's happening behind those closed doors and that's a pretty big indicator that jack smith's investigation is moving forward. it was barely a week ago that we were all trying to ascertain what is happening in miami. whether that was the full brunt of the investigation or whether there was a side issue. so, when you have these indicators, fake electors testifying, and you spot them specifically at the d.c. courthouse i think that's a pretty good indication this investigation is moving forward. while it's tough to say how exactly this will progress, and

what exactly is the time line certainly an indicator that this is something that donald trump has a lot to worry about here. >> you can give us a nonextensive list, on the people we've seen go in front of what we believe to be the grand jury with regard to this investigation? >> mike pence is the big one. it's a little tough in some cases to ascertain whether this was the january 6 investigation. we've short handed it as the january 6 investigation, but it's not just about the actual riot on january 6. it's about any efforts to basically keep the presidency and stay in the oval office for a second term. and it was tough to separate an exact grand jury from sometimes a separate grand jury. the appearances we saw early on were all about the mar-a-lago documents but now that that process has moved down to miami and of course is now playing out publicly in federal court, it's a lot easier to figure out,

okay, now, we're actually talking about the january 6 grand jury. the producers have been burning the midnight oil, spending a lot of time from the networks, spending time, trying to figure out who all of these figures are in that grand jury room. >> you've got to know a lot of faces and names. thank you, quite an investigation, such a good reminder that it's not just about january 6. it's about the efforts to overturn the election more broadly, ryan reilly, thank you. coming up, the original teflon dom is laid to rest in milan. what silvio berlusconi did to politics in italy and here in rome. we're there after the break. ere. k opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier.

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berlusconi dominated for almost two decades elected prime minister in 1994, 2004, 2005 and 2008. he was convicted of corruption, tax fraud and embezzlement. but through political and legal wrangling he managed to avoid jail time. in many ways he was the original teflon dom. joining me from roam is nbc news foreign correspondent claudio lavanga. claudio, when we talk about a way to weasel his way out of it, silvio berlusconi was doing it before him and changing the face of politics. >> reporter: if you think about it, silvio berlusconi has been the godfather of populism.

you called him the telephone teflon dom, but he formed his own party and months later he won and became prime minister. he basically proved to the rest of the world you don't have to be a career politician to win the hearts of voters. then you can carry on 20, 30 years, becoming prime minister many times over. he also proved that personality is more appealing to voters sometimes than ideals. that promises don't have to be followed by facts. he when the judges went after him, as you mentioned he said he was a victim of a witch hunt, he was the most persecuted man in the country, he was a womanizer. he had no shame admitting it. he even took pride in it, he took pride in it in the infamous bunga bunga parties, the sex parties while he was still in

power, that kind of started, basically, his downfall. either way, all of this reminds us of someone else around the world that silvio berlusconi set the standards and proved to other politicians around the world that you can get away with anything. >> and the prime minister the prime minister of the country, made today a national holiday for the country. claudio lavagna, thank you, that's going to do it, it's only wednesday, "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hello, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. i am ari melber in for nicolle wallace. we're covering right now the day after. defendant donald trump has now been indicted, arraigned, booked