>> he has signaled he is thinking about it. he has not totally ruled it out, and maybe waiting to see that desantis falls, right? and basically all of glenn youngkin's team from his gubernatorial run is now working for ron desantis in one capacity or another so i think he's counting on desantis to fall and then trump to fall and then biden to fall, and he's sitting there in virginia not far from here thinking about it. >> give us a quick sense what's next for you, what story lines are you exploring? >> that's a great question. i think right now the real question is what happens with trump and how does he try to maintain what looks like a little bit of energy in his campaign. you were talking earlier about the fund-raising, how does he keep that going, you know, while trial drags on? >> we have never been here before, unprecedented political questions. nbc's jonathan allen thank you as always, and thanks to all of you for getting up way too early

with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. as you know, i can't talk about the particulars of this or any other ongoing criminal matter. as i said when i pointed mr. smith, i did so because it underscores the justice department's commitment to both independence and accountability. mr. smith is a veteran career prosecutor. he has assembled a group of experienced and talented prosecutors and agents who share his commitment to integrity and the rule of law. any questions about this matter will have to be answered by their filings in court. >> attorney general merrick gar garland with brief words for the first time since donald trump's federal indictment. >> is it just me or, willie, are we starting to see again not a complete breaking of ice but sort of more thawing of ice,

mike pence day one, this is horrible. day two, it's bad, but i'm going to pardon him. day three, too early to talk about pardons. because you know, the news came out and i'm sure mike pence saw in drudge the new jersey nightmare, the possibility andrew weissmann talking about the worst crimes possibly committed were actually in bedminster. and so that shoe still may drop because that's disseminating. >> mm-hmm. >> so everybody else may be freaked out about a judge that only has 14 days experience who, again, humiliated herself for donald trump. i don't think jack smith's too worried. >> disseminating. i don't think he's that worried because he still has the most serious charges possibly in the new jersey federal court. >> andrew weissmann is going to join us to talk us through that. that is the idea out there, that possibly because of concerns about judge cannon this could go to new jersey, where a lot of

this took place in bedminster, donald trump's club there. mike pence yesterday said it's too early to prejudge. i'm not talking about pardons, i'm not talking about anything else. donald trump gets his day in court, and he went on to say just like joe biden's family maybe gets their day in court. in other words, don't prejudge things. we heard that from merrick garland. it's become so disoriented in the last eight years or so, this is what it's supposed to be like where the attorney general says this is not political. i appointed a special counsel. he's handling it. >> and by the way, rev, is that asking too much? is that asking too much to just say donald trump innocent until proven guilty. he'll get his day in court. let's hear what happens? joe, hunter biden, innocent until proven guilty. let's see what happens. let's let all this play out in court? >> absolutely. that's the correct way you would think that they would try and proceed, and given the gravity of the charges, if you're

running for president, you don't minimize it. we're talking about esespionage. we're talking about secrets that could have jeopardized the security of the country and members of the military. so the way they first came out of the gate on this showed anything less, a lot less than what you'd expect one that wants to be the commander in chief of the country. and now i think they're thawing back because i think it is very clear that another shoe may drop in new jersey, and i think they don't want it to drop on their head, the birthday boy. >>. also with us this morning, white house bureau chief of "politico" jonathan lemire and former white house press secretary, now an msnbc host, jen psaki is with us, and former u.s. attorney, joyce vance, an msnbc legal analyst and congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany

joins us as well. and jackie, this one actually tells you everything you need to know about former president donald trump. the jig is just never up. it's never up. >> really, really, he should have listened to kenny rogers. >> you got to know when to hold them. >> know when to walk away, know when to run. >> right. >> jackie, in your report -- >> i'm going to start singing. >> -- in "the washington post" it reveals one of former president trump's new attorneys proposed last fall that trump's team could try to negotiate a settlement with the justice department in the classified documents report, but the paper reports trump was having none of it. attorney christopher kies reportedly wanted to quietly approach doj. but the former president was not interested in listening to the

plan so kise never approached prosecutors. that's according to three people briefed on the matter. they say trump instead took the advice of tom fitten, the head of the conservative group judicial watch and others who told him he could legally keep the documents and should fight the doj. >> not good. >> this is -- jackie, this is, again, donald trump and his boxes that he doesn't want anyone else to have. is it possible the doj would have considered such a deal? >> that is a very good question, mika, even though this was a brainstorm from christopher kise, the attorney who appeared with donald trump earlier this week who was shortly sidelined after this proposal was made and after he short of felt out some players about potentially reaching out to the department of justice, but it seems

unlikely that the justice department would have agreed, especially even in that time period. they already knew that the former president was in possession of classified materials that were highly classified, top secret, and contained things regarding nuclear codes and, again, highly sensitive top secret documents related to the military. but as we report, the former president was never interested in taking a deal. he's always claimed that these were his papers, that all of the boxes contained newspaper clippings, just papers that he had picked up along the way. obviously we've seen that not to be true as over 100 classified documents ultimately were outstanding when the justice department executed their search warrant. but the former president does continue to seem to take tom fitten's advice. he was at a dinner with trump this week the night before his arraignment. they had steaks at blt prime at

the doral miami on monday night. we did speak with fitten for this piece who did not really confirm or deny that he provided the former president with legal advice but did say that he does speak with trump quite often and does provide him with advice generally speaking, and referenced this clinton socks case, a 2009 reference to these tapes that taylor branch had of bill clinton that really have nothing to do with classified documents. >> yeah. >> wow. >> willie, and again, this is the thing where donald trump has spent the last 50 years sort of playing the tabloid game, pushing off the new york post, the daily news, all this other stuff, insulting opponents, insulting rosie o'donnell. and it's all been a swirl for him. he always stays like five minutes ahead of the creditors, five minutes ahead of the judges.

but again, there's no better evidence that he doesn't -- i think maybe he does now, but he didn't understand what he was stepping into, what arena he was stepping into, right? this is like gladiator without, you know, a really good gladiator. he's in the ring, and this is, again, literally his life. >> yeah. >> possibly behind bars, and he's talking to some yahoo who, again, people in the fevered swamps love listening to him, but he's talking to this guy for advice about -- is tom fitten going to stay in jail with him for the rest of his life if he gets charged? no, he's going to be typing and going on to the next sucker. again, his options, you look at jersey, his options are running out. i mean, it seems to me a plea deal for him -- if they'll even

plea with him at this point, if the judge will even plea with him at this point, i don't think he will. >> it's always been a game to donald trump, for 40 years it's been a game. who's up, who's down. oh, i got the -- we've lived through it where he goes after you, then he sees you somewhere, pats you on the back, i was tough on you. jack smith doesn't take the pat on the back. this is deadly serious, and this could be a prison sentence for donald trump. joe mentioned the new piece from andrew weissmann and ryan goodman, legal analysts and frequent guests on our show, explains how president trump could potentially face additional charges in the classified documents case in new jersey. they describe this the atlantic how trump took classified records from mar-a-lago to bedminster, new jersey, where he showed some of the contents to other people. andrew and ryan, write, quote, the legal uncertainties that surround bringing charges in florida dissemination of national security secrets in bedminster leaves open the possibility that charges might be brought in new jersey, a

backup plan for smith. in aileen cannon were a to seek to pocket veto the charges before her by say, scheduling the trial for after the 2024 presidential election, the special counsel would be able to sidestep her tactic by proceeding with charges in new jersey. in fact, the miami indictment conspicuously excludes many facts surrounding trump's actions in bedminster, what boxes were taken there, what they contained, how they were kept at the golf club. his silence suggests there might be more to come from the famously hard charging smith and his team of prosecutors who put together an otherwise highly detailed 49 page indictment. joyce vance, a new twist here put forward by andrew weissmann and ryan goodman. what do you make of that idea? >> well, ten days ago we weren't really talking about an indictment in florida. that makes it clear to us that jack smith is very capable of staying quite quiet about what his next plans are, and something that struck many of us

the minute we read this indictment was that they seemed to walk right up to the precipice with these bedminster allegations. there are two instances where the former president appears to have shown classified material to other people. it's not entirely clear that he actually had the documents with him, and so there are some factual sort of needles that would need to be threaded here, but it was very interesting that they didn't do anything additional with those allegations, and that's led to speculation there could be an additional case brewing in new jersey. lots of procedural issues to be resolved if there are two cases like that. there might be some possibility that the former president could try to consolidate them and face trial only in florida, but this is a very intriguing sort of piece that ryan has written along with andrew, and it suggests that doj is not out of moves here. >> yeah, and jen psaki, we've heard from the very beginning

from all sides that the prosecutor never shows everything upfront, that they're going to have more, and here we have the possibility of a new jersey nightmare for trump possibly the most serious charges being moved far away from florida. again, we didn't even know ten days ago he was going to bring something in florida. but again, it seems to me he's got quite a few options. >> yeah, i mean, it's such an important reminder, joe, that we only know a sliver, right? even with all of this excellent reporting that's been going on around these different cases and the potential for indictment for months, even years now, we only know a sliver, and the department of justice, the special counsel and his team, they know much more. so that's why this is such an interesting thing to watch. one of the other things that andrew weissmann said in one of his many, many appearances this week that i thought was fascinating is that when trump spoke the other night after his arraignment, he essentially, again, kind of admitted to

everything he has done, right? he essentially confessed in those remarks. that is also potentially admissible in court. as he goes out there and campaigns and he's admitting to i took the documents, he's not saying he didn't. he's saying he was allowed to. that is also information that jack smith and his team continues to look at, interesting because it's happening in a week where in the e. jean carroll case a judge ruled that because of what he said at the cnn town hall, that's admissible in court. all of this is fascinating to watch. who knows what jack smith, all of the documents and files he has and his team has, and reprobably will not know for a while. >> you look at all the legal challenges coming at him. right wing trump snowflakes get very triggered when you talk about walls closing, but you look at all of the things that are coming toward donald trump, i don't know if they would call this like sunday in the park.

i don't know, but most people would feel a bit constrained when you have- again, all of these counts against you in florida, one of those counts puts you in jail for life. you've got the possibility of even more serious charges being brought in federal court in new york. you've got a judge saying that he can now be hit for punitive damages also in the e. jean carroll case going back for more defamation, and chances are good if a jury finds for e. jean carroll -- >> it will be expensive. >> it's going to be very expensive this time on punitive charges the second time around. you've got georgia that's still coming up. you've got the georgia prosecutor saying she is not going to be delayed by anything that the feds are doing. and that's coming up. most likely within the month. so his legal dance card going to be extraordinarily full. >> yeah, we can add potentially january 6th to that as well. >> yeah. >> an overwhelming amount, one that would just be crushing for any individual, particularly one

who's also trying to launch a presidential campaign, and the toll this is going to take on him and his team is extraordinary and just now beginning. and joe, you and i have talked about how they were pretty rattled a few weeks ago when they realized that this was coming, the indictment was coming on the documents case. they felt like the day itself is typical trump bravado. he showed up at the cuba restaurant, gave his defiant speech in new jersey, they raised a lot of money. at least so far, i know we'll talk about later, the polling suggests that hasn't dented his support among gop voters. this is another shoe to drop. i will say last night and this morning texting a few people in trump's orbit about this idea about new jersey, dead silence. that has not been the case of them earlier this week. so this is something that seems like it's potentially taking them by surprise too, were jack smith deciding to go down this road. but it is an extraordinary amount, and it is only escalating for the former president. >> we've been watching president

trump, people and his speech at bedminster and going to the restaurant, the cuban restaurant, and people singing and praying with him. he's maintained his usual bravado in public. >> people that know him, i've heard it and rev's talked about this and we'll talk about it some more after the story, but people that know him know he's whistling past the graveyard. this is a guy who's -- >> i see something different. >> -- scared. he's really scared. he should be. you'd be dumb not to be scared out of your mind. >> one of his former white house chiefs of staff says that behind the scenes, the former president is terriied about his legal situation. in an interview with "the washington post," john kelly used an expletive to describe just how scared his ex-boss is. >> we don't like to swear on this show. >> no. >> but i'm going to put it in quotes, he said, quote, if aristotle says it. >> aristotle does not say it. >> do you want me to quote it

again? >> for me, please don't. >> john kelly said he's scared shitless. he said it. >> you're in trouble. >> he said it. >> good luck today. >> i will not have that. >> i'm a journalist. >> no, you're not. >> i've got to report what's in the news. >> i will not have that. >> so excuse me, please. he added that trump, quote, gives the appearance that he doesn't care by doing things like visiting a restaurant immediately after being charged on tuesday. that opinion was backed up by another former white house staffer, press secretary stephanie grisham who told the post it's part public relations, part baby-sitting. he wants people to see the cheering crowds so they don't think anything is wrong. i think that has been trump's play every step of the way. he also lies about sort of the adulation he gets. you remember when he was inaugurated, he immediately had this issue about crowd size. i mean, he really needs the feedback, and when the feedback isn't there, he pretends it's

there. if his crowd is small, he has the cameras come in to make it look bigger, make 50 people look like 500 people by bringing the cameras in. everybody knows how that's possible when you're shooting events with audiences and stuff, you can have a certain amount of people in there. he has small crowds often, and he needs, though, the adulation. >> you look at the miami crowd, he was telling people come to -- it was like, you know. >> that was like a smattering of people in costumes. >> that was it. >> some people in costumes. >> it was thin. >> some people thought it was a miami dolphins. >> and now the mayor of miami -- >> summer event. >> exactly. >> and another play there going to a restaurant -- >> get a picture and everything. >> so it looks crowded. >> but you know, you almost got a sense in manhattan and down here that he was expecting some

like january 6th crowd turn out. they just didn't turn out. >> people don't want to get arrested. >> they saw how that turned out. >> put your feet up on a desk, go to jail for five years. no thank you. >> yeah. >> but you know, again, you know donald like we've known donald for a long time, pre-president. it is a lot of bravado. he plays the strong man. that's always to that degree, that's always to shield insecurities, and so now here he is, i think the general who obviously knows him very well too has a read on the guy. and rightly. i mean, he's scared out of his mind rightly because, again, one charge sends him to jail for life. >> i think that those of us that have dealt with him, known him knows the general is dead right here. here's a guy who's used to manipulating, maneuvering, knows who to call to get around

certain corners. there's no one to call now. and he's sitting there with no options but having to face this, and he's never been in that position. now, we're talking about federal charges. and for his defense to be that i had the right, which is absolutely against the law, he's asking a jury to overturn the law, which the jury can't do. the jury's going to have to say this is the law. this is how they'll be charged, and he's already admitted that this is what i did, which breaks the law. how do you get around that? >> yeah. >> and then for you -- you know i lead marchers and protest, to call a protest and predict the masses are coming and 50 people show up, one in a prison uniform, is enough to make you go to a cuban restaurant and order whatever the hardest drink is in the joint. >> exactly. >> i still want to know who paid the bill, willie because it wasn't trump. >> by the way, john kelly's

quote to "the washington post" finishes this this way, for the first time in his life -- talking about donald trump -- it looks like he's being held accountable. up until this point, it's like i'm not going to pay you. me to court. he's never been held accountable before. like january 6th, the close circle of aides and confidants could be his biggest weakness. with trump under federal indictment with people who currently or used to work with him seen as potential prosecution witnesses, the pressure on those around him has only increased. times continues as was the case with the house select committee's investigation last year into trump's efforts to retain power after his election loss, much of the evidence in the documents inquiry has come from people in trump's inner circle, underscoring the costs and limits of loyalty to him. chief among the possible witnesses is molly michael trump's former assistant who went to work for him in the white house and then went on to

work at mar-a-lago. she is known as trump employee 2 in the indictment and told prosecutors trump himself had packed and looked through the boxes contrary to what trump's lawyers claim. so jackie alemany, the name cassidy hutchinson springs to mind. most people in america had never heard of her until last summer when she went and testified and blew open the entire store i of what happened on january 6th. it makes it difficult for others to call this a witch hunt, people racing to trump's defense when the hunt is coming from inside the house. >> yeah, and it's not just molly michael. there are obviously a number of other figures that could potentially testify here, and yes, molly michael did have a firsthand view. we've known really for over a year now that she was intimately involved with a lot of the logistics around these boxes that she was cooperating with the department of justice in the investigation, and she

ultimately ended up actually leaving trump's employ. there are still, though, a handful of individuals who have cooperated with the investigation and one of whom is actually a target and a co-conspirator and co-defendant walt nauta who are still in trump's employ, and trump has been -- and the rest of his staff have been rallying around nauta in hopes that he does not turn on the former president as obviously just like molly, he too has a lot of information that was detailed in that 49-page indictment. but there is a reason why judge goodman asked that trump not speak with the witnesses in the case going forward, which is something that any good defense attorney would recommend that their client do. of course there was a special condition granted on tuesday since these are the people that his lawyer todd blanche argued keep the president's life moving, but it was a pretty surreal scene and sort of split

screen of molly versus walt nauta to see walt accompanying the president all throughout the week, and sort of toggling between the co-conspirator and trump's body man. >> yeah, it's amazing. >> the guy's life is on the line, like literally on the line as far as, you know, whether he's going to be spending time in federal jail for a very long time for, you know, extraordinary documents. i mean, remove this from donald trump. if this were not donald trump, if this were not the figure that we've been following for eight years, you know, trump, it would be no doubt. trump and his aide would be going to jail for decades, for absolute decades, and i suspect that's where this could end up if they don't strike a deal at the end, but joyce vance who's one more example, and i certainly hope, i think people like cassidy hutchinson figured it out in time, but i hope people figure it out in time

that were close to trump that this is not like going on a podcast and lying for donald trump. this is not like, you know, writing talking points to own the libs for donald trump. they have stepped into an arena where their freedom is on the line and they're playing with people who don't play. i mean, let's show that picture if we have it, t.j., of jack smith on the drudge shot, and look at this guy. like he is a consummate professional, and it's just -- again, they may think it's still a game, and they can talk to tom finton, and they can go on podcasts, but he looks like a nice guy. actually, no, he doesn't. >> oh, boy. >> they're not playing around, and i wonder if maybe because they got mueller when moeller

mueller was slowing down and it was easy to run circles around mueller, i wonder if maybe they made a mistake with jack smith by underestimating him. >> you know, jack smith is playing for keeps. he was the head of doj's public integrity section for many years, and in a role like that, you both learn from the cases that are successes, and you learn from the cases that are problem cases, and you evolve with those experiences and you come out the strong prosecutor that we see here. smith is no doubt playing for keeps, and that may come as a surprise because donald trump really when you look at his trajectory in court, he has to be the luckiest litigant of all time up to and including the draw of judge aileen cannon for the case in florida, but doj has something more important that it rests its practices on here. it will look to precedent, and it will look at how previous

cases have been handled, and to your point, joe, that no one walks away at this point, the statutory maximum charges here are very long. the sort of time in prison, anyone who ends up as a defendant is looking at is serious. in practice, doj has sometimes offered more lenient sentences in order to protect the nation's secrets. that's the difficult balancing act that prosecutors have to engage in here, but let me tell you, no one walks away without jail time once they've had a federal search warrant executed and top secret classified material is recovered, and there's an interesting case involving a low level military employee in hawaii. she takes a posting in the pacific, a transfer posting, and at some point she removes documents that are secret and are confidential, not top secret. takes them back to her hotel room where she keeps them in an

unsecured fashion, and happens to have a dinner party where a couple of foreign nationals are present. it goes on from there. she transports those materials. she doesn't put them in a classified pouch, takes them back to her office. it's not clear that she has any bad will here. it's not clear that any of those documents leaked. this is a relatively low level person, and she is prosecuted in the district of hawaii, and ends up being sentenced to three months in prison last year. that sentence may not sound particularly impressive. what is impressive is the certainty, the swiftness of punishment in that case. doj takes these matters very seriously. top secret information is information that if it's released to unfortunate hands would do serious damage, grave damage to national security. that's what's driving this whole case. >> yeah, i mean, there's a political circuit obviously around this from trump republicans and trump supporters. were there anybody else this would be an open and shut case, and they would just be talking

about a plea deal. to your point, forbes reporting that mar-a-lago sought 380 foreign workers during the time that trump had access to classified documents and they were just lying around mar-a-lago. 380 foreign workers. >> to joyce's point, you have to just wonder, there have been lots of different ways in which process hasn't been followed here. he didn't have to turn over his passport. he didn't do a mug shot, and the amount of time that they have given him compared to the case that joyce just put out there and others, it's worrisome when you think about what was revealed. i mean, i think we all were shocked when we actually read the indictment and saw what donald trump had taken for himself thinking they were his, saying they were his, knowing that they weren't, and knowing that there was a process, and seeing what happens to others in similar cases but much lower down on the totem pole when it

comes to the classification of the documents even. my god. i mean, this -- they have done -- they have rolled out the red carpet for him. >> bent over backwards. >> and he has still held firm to his stolen documents. >> i guarantee there are a lot of people perhaps maybe even the woman that joyce is talking about, a lot of people have been charged in the past and they're wondering why -- >> served time. >> -- why they gave donald trump special treatment. please, will you please return your documents. we will be visiting you to come get them. and he calls it a raid. >> again, they gave him special treatment, and he was too stupid, too stupid when they opened the door to walk through it. >> former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you, and "the washington post" jackie alemany, thank you very much for being on this morning. the judge handling trump's classified documents, aileen cannon, the case is coming under

new scrutiny for having little criminal trial experience. we're going to bring in one of the reporters on that piece. plus, new polling showing donald trump's support among republicans is standing strong despite his mounting legal troubles. we're breaking down those new numbers. also ahead, first it was trump, then ron desantis, and now another florida man may be throwing in his hat for the 2024 race for the white house. and house conservatives renew a battle over benefits for seniors, some members of the party are looking to raise the retirement age to collect social security. >> they're talking about privatizing medicare as well. >> there you go. >> you're watching "morning joe." >> smart move. >> we'll be right back.

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. >> pretty shot of the white house. >> we were talking obviously about donald trump and the problems he has, republicans are going to get hurt by trying to defend him. then we were talking about how republicans are talking about social security. >> yeah, they want to raise it. >> raise the age to like 175. >> what else? >> privatizing medicare. >> yep. they want guns, lots of them. >> a lot of guns. >> just shoot everything up. >> no gun safety legislation, even legislation that 90% of americans support. >> this is a winning platform. >> at least they have the abortion issue going for them, right? >> no, nearly a year after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, a new poll shows a record number of americans support legalizing early term abortions. in the latest gallop survey, 69% of americans say abortion should be legal in the first three months of a pregnancy. that is up 2% from the previous

high of 67%, which was set last may after the dobbs decision was leaked, and it's not just democrats who say abortion should be legal in the first trimester. 74% of independents, 47% of republicans also agree. >> nearly 50% of republicans and jen, this is a question that a lot of people from "the wall street journal" editorial page keep asking republicans. like when are you going to get like straight on abortion? >> mm-hmm. >> look at kansas, look at kentucky, look at what happened in wisconsin. these states that republicans should be winning, they're getting crushed in now on the issue of abortion. you know, in that wisconsin case, they kept an 1849 law, a total ban on abortion on the books. again, it's just political malpractice. >> i mean, it turns out women don't like their rights being

taken away. go figure. so that's what we're seeing here. but you know, i think, joe, what is interesting in terms of the politics of abortion is what's happening in the republican primary, right? you have a number of these candidate who is can't quite figure out where they are or where they want to be, many of them don't want to commit to an abortion ban. they haven't -- they're unwilling to give the number of weeks, and for a long time as you well know, the issue of abortion and where you were on the issue of choice was pretty uniform, right, in the republican party, and what you would say say in a platform or on a campaign event. that has changed. so the republican primary debates about this and where candidates are, whether it's scott or haley or others, is an indication of how the politics of this country and where the public is are impacting political leaders and how they're running for office. >> and you have ron desantis who has viewed jonathan lemire as perhaps the alternative to donald trump, should everything with his legal troubles go

sideways here who not long ago signed into law a six-week abortion ban which may serve him well in a primary, but boy, that's trouble in a general election. >> it sure seems that way, poll after poll after poll suggests how unpopular these super restrictive abortion bans are and democrats, look, they point to it as one of the most definitive, deciding important issues of the 2022 midterms, and they don't see that changing for 2024. with so many states taking on new abortion legislation, with so much energy around the issue and obviously so many women really unhappy about where the republicans landed, that's going to be something that's going to potentially tip the scales again, and we talk a lot in this show about those independent swing voters who are going to decide next year's election, those which trump is already struggling, republicans already struggling. the abortion issue certainly could be the defining one for suburban women to send them back to the democrats for another cycle. >> this is what you don't see in a lot of biden polling. you don't see, rev, people going

i'm just not excited. this guy's too old. come on, not excited. and then you get close, it's like 2022, and then you get closer and closer to the election, there's going to be a red wave, there's going to be a red wave, and then people go in and vote, and they're like hold on a second, these people are making 10-year-old babies, 10-year-old little girls flee their states after being raped. they're talking about having the state force 14-year-old girls to have a state sanctioned forced pregnancy, forced birth if their uncle rapes them, and suddenly they're not quite so concerned about joe biden's energy levels. they're like, all right, well, things are getting done. i can't turn it over to these guys who want 10-year-old girls who are rapes to have to flee their states and want to

privatize medicare, and support a guy who steals nuclear secrets. >> no question about it, and i think that's what even some of the allies "the wall street journal" editorial board and others are saying, wait a minutes here, you are going to wake up people that would just normally stay in a snooze level and go along with you, and that's what's happening. when you look at what they're doing on abortion and ignoring all of the data that's saying according to polling that it's the other way, when you look at the fact that you're dealing with the economy. you just talked about inflation, and your runner up if donald trump is toppled is a guy that picks on the biggest employer in his state and gets in a fight with mickey mouse that would cause jobs, people are going to say wait a minute from the economy to abortion, even if i offensively don't want to go with the democrats and biden, i must defensively go with them because i've got to protect my

daughter and i've got to protect my economic standing. so i think by offense or defense, it puts biden/harris in a very good position. coming up, with signs of easing inflation, the fed halts its streak of ten straight rate hikes. >> willie, you know what that means, right? >> what does it mean? >> somebody's gone over to the big board. >> the rattner wall we call it. >> the big wall. >> but the pause might only be temporary, steve rattner joins us with charts next on "morning joe." e. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate.

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and once-in-a-lifetime. . beautiful shot of the capitol as we are 46 past the hour, welcome back to "morning joe." a new report reveals conservatives in the house are looking to cut who's eligible for social security benefits. bloomberg reports the 176th member house republican study committee has proposed raising the retirement age to collect

social security to 69. the current retirement age for full benefits is 66, and rising gradually to 67. bloomberg points out the same group abandoned a proposal from last year that would have increased the medicare retirement age, but they're now seeking to further privatize the program. for the first time in more than a year, the federal reserve voted to skip raising interest rates at its most recent meeting. the central bank is pressing pause to see whether the stiff rate hikes already imposed can get inflation down to the fed's 2% target. joining us now with charts is supposed to be steve rattner. >> what? >> you need to come back over here, what are you doing? >> you know, the thing is, i was going to have steve do this, but i remembered that i took econ 101 at the university of alabama, and reading sports illustrated in the last row of the class, i think if i remember

i got a c minus in the class. i do remember -- i don't know if you remember this, mika -- i did debate on the charlie rose show, a nobel prize winning economist. >> and i've never seen you sweat more before. >> he said i won the debate, right? >> yeah. >> i think i won it more on style than substance because i remember when krugman started talking about quantitative easing and how that would help the economy, charlie asked me what i thought, and i said, water slides are fun. >> i like purple. >> so the fed pauses hikes. this is a red squiggly line. red, you know, it pulls us in. it attracts us. >> bring steve in, please. >> and i'm not going to turn it over to steve rattner who's going to do the rest of the hit. >> joe, you were doing so great. i'd love you to finish up for me. >> steve, we actually want to know what's going on, please. let's talk about the fed -- >> oh, my god, just get your chair over here.

>> you know. >> this will wake up the kids. >> come on, kids. >> thank you. >> steve. >> where are we going? >> let's start with your first chart, fed pauses the hikes, signals more what? >> there's a lot of red squiggles, there's blue squiggles, oh, yeah, right. okay, anyway, so the fed increased interest rates, tenth consecutive meeting it's done that. i don't think it ever did that before, and you can see the pace of increases compared to all the other previous tightening cycles for the last 40 years, this has been the steepest, the fastest because we obviously know that we have an inflation problem and we have to deal with it. as you said, mika you used both the words skip and and it was interesting because jay powell also used the words skip but said pause because he did not want to commit himself to another interest rate increase but did go from 5% to 5.5% end

of the year implying two more increase this is year. the fed also said the economy has been a bit stronger than we thought. they raised their forecast for economic growth to 1% this year. not a huge number, but a positive number, and they raised their unemployment -- lowered their unemployment rate and slightly raised their inflation rate. going out you can see they raised their interest rate forecast the rest of the year. this is the market. the market is slightly more optimistic than the fed and thinks the fed will decline from there. that's the outlook at the moment. >> let's talk about what's been happening. it has been easing but, again, everybody extraordinarily cautious, even you with your chart. willie, what did you call that wall? >> that's the green monster of cable news. >> yes. >> it's an iconic wall. yes. >> exactly. >> the next time he comes, i'm serious, you can pitch or i can pitch, but before he comes out, we have to play some whiffle

ball. the green monster, you talk about it's slowly easing. nobody is ready to say inflation is over, are they? >> nobody is ready to say that. i think this has to be the biggest wall in the business, right? >> you've got it. it's all yours. you own it. >> my friends at cnbc must be very, very jealous. >> i bet they are. >> so, yeah, inflation is the key to this. the fed does not want to raise interest rates more than it has to and it's washing inflation very carefully. we did have decent news on inflation a couple of days ago which showed inflation continuing to come down this is what we call headline, the overall inflation rate. we went up the mountain and we're coming back down the mountain. we're back to where we were in early 2000. core services, meaning the real heart of the economy when you take out food, you take out

energy, you take out a lot of stuff that moves around. what is the core doing? and that's because it's driven by labor costs and core the news isn't quite as good. it's a little bit squigglier. we've gone up and come down. we're sitting above 4% and that is a good ways away from the fed's 2% target and so the fed still has a fair amount of work to do. >> and obviously this economy has just been extraordinarily resilient when it comes to jobs, to wages, what's that looking like? >> the economy really has loaded on in a way i don't think many of us expected it would continue to do. what the fed is watching and what will drive this inflation are really two things. one will be wages. normally we want wages to go up. we want workers to earn more. we want them to have better lives. if it creates inflation, it's counterproductive because then their purchasing power goes

away. so wages are sitting back down here through most of 2015 and so on at a very appropriate level for 2% inflation but then, of course, during covid, post covid with the employment surge, with all the spending and with the inflation, wage rates jumped up to over 5.5%. they've started to come down, but they're still above 5% and they really need to get back down here in order for us to have that 2% inflation that the fed is so targeted on. the other thing that's been keeping inflation reasonably high is companies pricing. companies in this strong economy have a lot of pricing power. they're able to pass these costs through which also contributes to prices. and so you see what's happened to corporate profits. corporate profits took off post the pandemic, interestingly enough, $3 trillion in corporate profits. even if up adjust for inflation, corporate profits are still bouncing around a record level and because of, again, the strength of the economy, companies have the ability to

pass the costs through and that helps keep the inflation rate down. we need to see more competition on the pricing side. >> and, steve, it's very interesting. you talked twice about a strong economy and obviously republicans are talking about how weak the economy is. you look at the direction of the country. you look at consumer confidence. and it's more of a muddled picture and yet the most recent poll i saw where americans were asked are you doing better than you were a year ago and do you think you're doing well financially, about 75% of americans say yes. so there seems to be a disconnect between what americans are feeling and what we're seeing in some of these other numbers. >> yeah, i think the disconnect a bit, joe, as we talked about i think last week, americans do feel pretty good about their own situation today. they still do by a substantial majority say they're better off than a year ago. when you ask them about the future, they get pessimistic. they are worried about the

future, and they are not as optimistic about that. that's also because the fed still has work to do and the notion of a recession is not out of the picture. as we sit here today, the economy motors on producing 365,000 jobs last night. unemployment rate of 3.7%, still the best economy in the developed world. >> it's crazy. steve ratner, thank you. >> thank you, steve. >> the insights are unbelievable. as steve said himself, nobody has a bigger wall. >> not even at cnbc. >> not even at cnbc. >> hi, steve. >> what? what? can i speak? >> a great over the shoulder shot of steve ratner. >> cinematography. >> jen psaki, thanks for being on. bye, steve. we'll be reading a new piece for msnbc.com titled trump wants to turn his indictment into reality tv, and that could backfire.

give us a sense of what you're talking about here. >> well, i think, mika, we've all seen trump's aggressive pr strategy. a number of guests have said this morning, that's how he's been rolling through his life. that doesn't work in a courtroom. and we've seen that what he says publicly could be admissible in court. but there's also kind of a contrast here, mika, between what he's doing and what the biden team is doing and making the assumption that he will win didn't play out in 2020, so the biden team is betting for that as well. so i talk about that all in the piece. >> jen psaki, thank you very much. and coming up on "morning joe," we'll have the latest surrounding the federal indictment of donald trump including what mike pence is saying about a potential pardon for his former boss. plus, our next guest says gretchen whitmer has what it takes for a white house run. after a week spent trailing michigan's governor.

also ahead president biden is set to speak at a national gun safety summit in connecticut tomorrow. senator chris murphy will be there, and he joins us ahead right here. shingles. some describe it as pulsing electric shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪ this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪

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holds. >> come on in, all right. >> pull up a chair. >> seriously. >> it's called "morning joe." >> it's coffee. it's not about me. >> it was never about me. >> of course not, right, willie? >> a coincidence. >> former vice president mike pence when asked whether he would pardon former president trump if convicted on federal charges. welcome back. joining the conversation we have nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, jen palmieri and an msnbc analyst and you were in the courtroom during the federal indictment of donald trump. >> talking about the evolution -- and i'm not mocking him.

politicians move and go where they think people are. >> slightly moving toward -- >> he was a fire breather. mike pence did what other republicans were doing first day. second day he said what he did looks serious but i'm going to pardon him. the first day he landed on a reasonable position, innocent until proven guilty. that's very telling. that doesn't happen in a vacuum. more and more republicans are starting to see just how serious this is and also the possibility of the new jersey option. >> when you saw when trump started to get in this trouble when the fbi went down to mar-a-lago, the whole party, the fbi are in melania's bedroom, according to trump, all rallying around him.

it's easy to rally around trump as long as the question of what the charges are is hypothetical. every step from then to now has gotten worse for trump up to the worst day in his life when the indictment came down. it took them 24 hours to absorb the indictment, the depth of it. it's now been fully absorbed. he is still the most powerful force and has the most loyalty. except chris christie. everyone else understands the nature of this electorate will not do that. like the pick-and-roll this is the pence shuffle, try to find a position that is not standing next to donald trump.

defending him on these facts. that is a crushing position to be in a general election standing up there with a convicted felon on these counts and having video of you saying the president was right, he didn't do anything wrong. there's no sane politician that will want to be in. >> that is in the split screen with donald trump led off in handcuffs is something no politician wants to be a part of. >> stealing nuclear secrets, war plans, obstructing the return of those documents. it's not the arcane details of it. everyone gets it. >> i'm still sort of shocked. >> nuclear secrets. >> lisa, you spent two weeks in

miami. >> could you see what was happening? >> i could see a lot. federal courtrooms are not large courtrooms. they're smaller than here in new york. i was on the side of the courtroom with the defense table so i had a wonderful bird's eye view of the back of donald trump's head. as donald trump was leaving his arraignment he stood up, two rows of secret service agents stood up to flank him and form a formation as they were walking out, where criminal defendants who are in detention usually come from and go. what happened next his co-defendant walt nauta didn't leave with his own, he left with donald trump and in an instant flipped from co-defendant on the same level as valet in a heart beat. >> he went to the versailles restaurant staffing for him. >> he stays with him all the

time? >> he's the body man. >> not supposed to be talking about the case. who will believe that? donald trump was thinking about nothing but the case. people together donald trump and, joe, you and i have talked about his conflict with his father fred trump, berating him. imagine the night he's having now with his father saying i told you you weren't going to be nothing. you're a disgrace. his whole world is shattered. for him not to talk to the valet would be preposterous. >> the second most important topic of crispy versus not crispy on kentucky fried chicken, the only thing they're into. >> jen, it is really striking to look based on everything we've

heard and even those that have seen him out that know him, his aides say this isn't the same guy that has been playing strong man through the years, brushing things off. because we can't swear on the show, use any profanity, i cannot quote aristotle or what his former chief of staff, john kelly, said. >> please don't. he said he's scared. very, very scared right now. >> we saw that on tuesday night in the low energy speech in new jersey. you just appreciate, for us even, how complicated it's going to be for him to walk through this. what he says now could be admissible in court. everything he's used to arguing and not having any consequences there are consequence that is can end up with him in prison.

i think heilemann is right that it's way too early to know politically how this is going to impact him. sure, for now republicans are rallying around him. there's no impact in the polls. he raised money off this. i watched a focus group, highly informed people, and they were asked did the indictment change your view? like most places, most people said no. we've seen that. one guy said, you know, it did because i listened to the indictment. i was driving and i hit play and i heard over and over again all of the different documents, how important they were, and it really gave me some concern and that said to the group maybe he's not the best general election candidate and expressed a lot of concerns about that.

this is big consequences for him. >> was the group overall saying that next to him? people are saying the indictment doesn't have an impact, but then you talk to them more, we're exhausted. >> it's iowa. they did not pick him. they picked cruz. they're not inclined to. it was interesting desantis really popped. he's been here a lot. what are you hearing about desantis and they didn't say disney. they got there but said he's really concerned about federal government spending so that's breaking through there. and you could see obviously desantis is trying to run to trump's right, criticizing his nominees as not being conservative enough and you can see that maybe working in iowa. where at least in '16 were not

inclined to trump, but there was a lot of unease. they asked eight men do you think biden could beat trump? only one said they thought trump could beat biden. >> they don't think trump can beat biden. i am curious what do they want them to make women wear bonnets? >> it's a bizarre critique. >> you have to wear the bonnet, dress like a hand maid. is that what they want the supreme court to say? >> that's the one thing people say at least donald trump got us the three justices that turned over roe vs. wade. >> these people are hard to please. >> the kavanaugh vote. >> the last six years or whatever it's been, so many people who have said the walls are close in on donald trump,

the mueller investigation, and he survives and survives and survives. given what we saw in the indictment, the evidence we already know and there will be more to come for sure and given the penalty for these alleged crimes, doesn't he have something to be scared blankless about as kelly put it? >> there's likely going to be an indictment in the january 6 case. the walls are closing in from all directions. he's like michael jackson at the end of "the thriller" video. i'm an '80s kid. >> i see it, i see it. >> at the end he turns into the monster, too, right? he looks scared. i was on the trump side of the courtroom. when he got up before that single line formation we talked about, he turned around and he wanted to look down the faces of

everyone in the gallery. it almost seems like he was doing two things, do i know anyone who will give me any comfort? a smiling face, all the trapings of his sycophants. he turned on his heel. nauta followed him. he did not look bullish or bullying or strong man like. he looked squared blankless. >> those moments, an arraignment is the moment it gets real, that's it. >> ivanka was by his side throughout his first, when he was running for president. the family was everywhere with him. all of them. >> the '80s, the '70s, when luke and -- >> the trash compactor.

the story we're in there and we have goop all over us. my hair is fluffy, wait, and harrison ford goes, get him. it's not that kind of movie. that's the '70s reference. >> the things he remembers. >> jonathan, we have the indictment in florida. the possible indictment in new jersey which i would be the most worried about. we have georgia saying that's still moving forward. the case that will be the hardest to prove. an indictment on that. committing sedition against the united states government. >> in this "star wars"

investigation, the monster that's underneath the trash compactor that pulls them down, that's what i thought. we'll leave it there. >> and we've done it. >> january 6th investigation, you're right. for a long time we don't think the case will happen. jack smith will likely charge on the documents but january 6 is too big, too strong, too complicated. it won't come to be. now there is the sense that it may. it was noteworthy. the day jack smith was in that miami courtroom as lisa described, his team was hard at work here in d.c. calling in other witnesses and pursuing elements of the january 6th investigation. that has not gone away. that is still something that

very much looms and we would have to re-evaluate how that could change the political calculus asking voters now and next year to cast their ballot for someone who, yes, might be charged with seditious conspiracy or with inciting a riot at the united states capitol, just a few hundred yards from where i'm sitting. that is a very tough sell for any candidate. so that is something that still looms on the horizon even as trump is being dragged down by so many legal trolls. >> we've talked about how he's getting advice from tom fenton. of any blogger or whatever he calls himself now, when somebody is called to testify in a case like this, not even a defendant, they have to get lawyered up. that could cost them $50,000, $75,000, $100,000 if they have a

series of depositions. think about donald trump having trouble getting one lawyer for a florida case when he has this massive d.c. case moving forward, a georgia case -- >> a new defamation case. >> this is, again, a guy having trouble getting one lawyer. this would bankrupt anybody that had this many legal cases going but trump going in there completely legally unarmed. >> part of it, joe, isn't a question of can he afford it. we know that save america has been paying the legal costs for many of the witnesses and even for his co-defendant walt nauta. trump has a full wallet and an empty roster. he's an undisciplined client and we've seen time and again experienced people recruited to join the legal team thinking they are going to be the savior

lawyer who final lip gets him to listen and do what they say. they're all casualties of donald trump being the most ungovernable client perhaps in american legal history that i can think of. and now keis is back and todd blanche, a reputable attorney, but let's see if trump world chews them up and spits them out because donald trump does not take any counsel at the end of the day but his own. >> does anyone know tom fenton's degree is? no court experience. had a bachelor's degree in english from george washington university. that's where you want to go when you have the justice department bearing down on you. >> in three different states. >> lisa rubin, thank you very much for coming in.

we'll see you soon, i'm sure. let's bring in senator chris murphy of connecticut, a member of the foreign relations committee. we have a lot to talk to you about including an event pertaining to gun safety legislation. having heard much from your colleagues on the senate side but, boy, on the house side there's a lot being said. what do you make of the defense of this indictment among your republican colleagues? >> i think it's really dangerous the allegations they're making. they have zero evidence to suggest president biden is pulling the strings of the judicial department and erodes faith. a lot of monday morning quarterbacking, and we think it's important to maintain some

degree of separation between the congress, the legislative branch and law enforcement entities of this country. no doubt they are incredibly serious charges and the american public are certainly watching. i guess my worry is the entire political conversation is around these charges. what matters a lot more to americans are his pledges to continue his policy for billionaires and millionaires. probably will not be the things that motivate voters to the polls. >> senator, to follow up on mika's question senator marco rubio of florida, the ranking republican on the intelligence committee said what was the damage? show me the damage from donald trump keeping these documents? did iran or china gain an edge?

spinning for donald trump. ranking member on the intelligence committee. should a person, most of us don't think he believes that, he knows better. if he and speaker mccarthy believe this is a nothing burger, should their security clearances be looked at? >> this has become one big cult of personality, the republican party, and they have this reflexive instinct. we know how dangerous it is for someone to purposely retain this information. donald trump was sharing the information to settle a score. maybe they were just as mementos or to release them to benefit his political career or damage

his political opponents. everyone who serves knows that's exactly why we don't walk out of that room with classified documents because they hold enormous political power if they are released. >> i wanted to ask you, you said how voters will be concerned about other issues other than the criminal indictment of the president. tomorrow at university of hartford you have the gun violence summit and president biden is coming. what kind of goals are going to come out of this summit, and do you think there will be legislative movement? as i travel people are frustrated that we can't even get background checks through the senate or the house. where do we take this after we

have summits i think is necessary and the president coming to it. voters are going to be very concerned about it. >> tomorrow in hartford for the first time all of the anti-gun violence groups are coming together in a summit. this is the one-year anniversary of passing the bipartisan safer communities act. president biden had a lot to do with that. he's giving the keynote address. when you're building a big political movement you need to show their advocacy matters. we beat the nra and that happened because the movement has gotten bigger and bigger. kids, parents, community members coming out to town halls, making phone calls. we have made a difference.

there's some interesting data suggesting murder rates may be coming down by double digits but we are going to plan for the future at this summit. my hope is we'll be able to rally the american public to be able to elect more democrats next fall. >> senator chris murphy of connecticut, thank you very much. it's great to have you on the show this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," could special counsel jack smith execute a backup plan if the mar-a-lago case runs into obstacles in the florida venue? nbc news legal analyst andrew weisman is laying out the possibility of donald trump facing charges in new jersey. and he joins us ahead. plus, we'll get into the new profile of michigan governor gretchen whitmer posted just about an hour ago in "vanity

fair" and whether she has what it takes for a white house run. tony and grammy award winning "hamilton" star leslie odom jr. with a look at his upcoming broadway revival. you're watching "morning joe." c" i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma

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a woman would do the job better than a man and, no, whitmer is not planning a primary challenge to joe biden this time around. the experiences have shaped her as a leader -- being a single working mom, caring for a sick parent, dealing with harassing men, are unique to women and common to women. it makes her relatable. each trial has compounded upon itself to make her stronger, more skilled and turn her into the person before me, an enormous chal enter coming at a time america has seen enough women in power more likely to embrace her than be threatened by her. women no longer have to model themselves after men to be recognized as leaders. i see her now. she is a strong female executive who could be elected president. jen, you think she has what it

takes. >> i've thought this for a long time, mika, i first met her in 2020 and watched what she dealt with the pandemic, president trump attacking her, she didn't back down, she didn't take attacks personally. it's hard to do, particularly hard for women politicians to do. i wanted to go out to michigan and understand what's underneath all of that. the piece is called "the spartan" because she talks about michiganders having championship swagger that's a michigan state underdog way of looking at the world but is the embodiment of whitner herself. what i found was the difference for her very focused, doesn't

take things personally, doesn't go looking for trouble but if you come for her, she will punch you in the mouth. part of it is being a gen-x where she had female role models. she saw jennifer grant holm attacked for no reason. she saw hillary get attacked. and her mom was an assistant attorney general and she saw what her mother went through. vice president harris is gen-x, senator amy klobuchar, governor whitner and they are able to -- they're leading in a different way and it's their experiences as mothers, as women who have dealt with sexual harassment, have been part of the generation

taking care of a terminally ill parent, these are the skills they bring to their leadership roles. it gives her that presidential timber. >> leadership, power, impact is being normalized. i've learned this on the 50 over 50 list and thought how will we launch the first one? 10,000 submissions, all amazing except for a few women lying up. co-host of "showtime's the circus" with jen palmieri, what makes gretchen whitmer so interesting she was able to lead

through a tumultuous time through trum am and with her life in danger. >> as j-pom knows -- i give those out for free. as jennifer knows, she was in trouble heading into 2022. people were worried about her. even a year out. she seized on in a very natural, organic way on the abortion issue, made the whole engineered state referendum that would help her and it was a rising political tide so a political savvy there of how to win and not in a very purple state and the question i have for you is this. all of these things are positive about gretchen whitmer. having worked in the 2016

campaign, a question she grappled with, knew a woman would have to answer at a higher level of scrutiny than men do, does any governor have to answer in a different way, is there any thinking going on in gretchen whitmer's world how to overcome that challenge, that hurdle if she runs? are they talking about that question yet? >> they don't talk about a presidential run with me. i haven't heard them express that concern. i don't think that's how they think about things. she's been at this a long time. she was elected to the legislature when she was 28

years old and in the year 2000 she's been at this for 23 years. gretchen whitmer is the first person to have signed a warrant for larry nassar, the -- wild, right? she had to step in to be the county prosecutor because the county prosecutor had to resign, wait for it, he was part of a human traffic sex ring. she picked up the case and was the first to sign a warrant. she's seen some stuff and has been through a lot. i think it's not -- she really has this confidence. i see it with women across the board. i think that comes from having been through a lot and learning to push back and fight.

had hillary clinton been the nominee, she did meet the bar of being the commander in chief test. other women will be able to build on that. she's tough and gets things done. i'm going to say it on a table full of men. >> he's a hand man. >> jen psaki, thank you. just kidding. jen palmieri, follow her. so talented. >> oh, i follow her. >> would you stop? >> he's hovering. >> it's enough. >> the british guy about the spinning top. >> he gave us the answer. but i won't say it here. >> coming up, leslie odom jr.

won a tony in 2016 for his performance in the broadway musical "hamilton." now he's making a return to the stage for a new revival and joins the table to talk about it next on "morning joe." i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. ♪ ♪ ♪

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i'm curious -- >> just amazing. >> leslie odom jr. >> is that like when paul mccartney says "i want to hold your hand" or -- >> it's electrifying. >> it was a moment in time that was so extraordinary. >> it still touches me and moves me. >> leslie odom jr. in the broadway hit "hamilton" and won a tony for his tony-winning performance. he's returning in the satire. >> hopefully people will get very used to saying that name. >> a nonconfederate romp through the cotton path in which he portrays the title role played by the legendary davis and he joins us now. it's great to have you.

hurley. wait a minute, 300 interviews ago for "sunday today" this is kind of amazing. >> "sunday today" trying to get the show off the ground, "hamilton" mania. leslie odom jr. was so generous to say yes. we did an interview and leslie odom blessed our show that first day. that's what i'm getting to. thank you. forever in your debt, sir. >> it was my pleasure. you made our day. hamilton was an amazing experience because the theater changed my life and i believe in the power of theater.

i think my life will be changed and it has been. with that same hope that we join together this amazing cost to speak the words of ozzie davis where we're hoping that you come into the theater and are reminded of the power. i will be joined on stage -- next to mean it was ozzie davis' wife. she played the role of bell. an incredible company of thoroughbred new york artists to speak these words and 60 years after the premier on broadway. >> for people who don't know,

set the scene about what we will see in terms of the story. >> you see a brother come back to the farm. he comes from sharecroppers. and it was not all it was cracked up to be. pearly comes back to his hometown in georgia and is trying to plan a way to buy back this church his grandfather preached at because he believes in ownership and the show is about what in america we can lay claim to, what in america do we own. but it's a comedy. the nonconfederate romp through the cotton patch, emphasis on

romp. we're going to have a ball. i'm going to try to find a way to get some music in there. mr. davis wrote a play but it's hard for me to step off a stage and not sing a little bit. >> i think the history of where we are now the history of the whole idea of the sharecropper and the ownership and what he went through is important. i got to know ozzie davis, who was an activist with steroids but he was a performer -- >> metaphorically. >> let me be clear. i have to say that, metaphorically. i think that people also need to know how he really brought that to life. i remember as a kid going to see purlie and if there was anything i think that can step on that stage and recapture that is you

after watching what you've done in your career. tell me how you feel as an artist doing something you know will be compared with one of the greats of all time, ozzie davis? >> are you all right with that? >> it's scary but it's exciting. my first broadway show i did i was 17 years old when i went into "rent" on broadway. i stepped into the shoes of somebody that had come before me and "hamilton" i got to originate something and this to pick up something written 60 years ago with somebody like me in mind is a wonderful experience. in theater these things are ephemeral but you hope you can be a part of something that is lasting, something that some young actor will find their own strength in.

>> to put historical perspective on this, of course we're coming up on the 60th anniversary of martin luther king jr.'s march on washington which you will be leading in august but, john, for the 100th performance in '61 reverend martin luther king jr. went and celebrated with the cast to show you just the historical importance. >> and just to clarify. the history of the show there was a musical called purlie, there was a musical version. you have your breakthrough is a couple of huge songs in "hamilton." you've done jazz albums since then. your acting career, music has

really been your voice is what broke you through. do you want to get back? i know what singing "wait for it" over and over meant to you, the gift of that song. is that something you long for again to get back on a live stage and sing for audiences again? >> yes. there is a tremendous amount of music even in this play. mr. davis puts his finger right on is the music of this language, and not just -- there's white folks in the show, too. most especially it is -- it highlights what we've made of ourselves and challenging soil

have grown something special. >> it must be gratifying to hear this saying with leslie odom jr. in the role purlie will rise with magnificence. what a statement from the family to kind of put their bleting on it. as someone who has seen broadway from all different angles how nice to see the faces in the crowd especially after the pandemic where it was no sure thing. it has to be nice to be back. >> it's so nice. i believe in, i think, the most powerful thing about the theater is the potential for catharsis, spontaneous rush of emotion, an spontaneous rush of emotion. it's not just tears. it's laughter too. that experience that happens in these houses just up the street has brought me some of the

greatest joy of my life. >> "pearly victorious" begins previews september 7th at the music box theater in new york city. tickets are on sale now. >> i can't wait. >> leslie odom jr., thank you for coming on. >> oh, my gosh. >> that was a joke. that was a fake one. >> are you okay? he's good at that. he just gets up and walks away, joe. >> i fall on the floor and then press my button. coming up, new questions about whether the judge who will preside over the criminal trial of donald trump has enough experience to handle the case. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪

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state and federal officials say it will take months to repair the collapsed i-95 overpass in philadelphia. nbc news correspondent emily ekeda has the latest. >> reporter: this morning a rush to fix a critical highway. once crews finish clearing out hundreds of tons of debris, they'll backfill the massive gap. eventually they plan to construct a permanent overpass. pennsylvania governor josh shapiro says crews are ahead of schedule, but would not give an estimated timeline for when drivers will be able to return. >> we realize it's a challenge for motorists. these guys are working their tails off. >> reporter: the drivers who rely on the highway, roughly

14,000 are trucks. pete buttigieg on the ground earlier this week. >> economists warning this closure could push the crisis of goods. what's the urgency to get it rebuilt? >> if trucks have to wait, that finds its way into the cost of goods. >> reporter: robert thompson relies on i-95 five to ten times a day. now he says routes are taking twice as long to travel. >> how does this complicate your job? >> in every way. we depend on roadways to get where we need to go. we need to get somewhere fast and on time. >> reporter: backlogs impacting local commuters too. >> all the cars that would typically be on 95 are now on back roads in northeast philadelphia where i'm used to just zooming around from house to house and i'm having to allow

much more time. >> reporter: as the collapse drives a new normal for the summer travel season. >> people who are going to travel need to keep in mind some advanced planning. consider traveling during off peak times. still ahead on "morning joe," how to hold a public trial when the key evidence is classified. we'll bring in one of the reporters on that piece. plus, andrew wiseman joins us on how his theory on why donald trump could face additional charges in new jersey. he'll explain that next on "morning joe." plain that next on "morning joe."

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welcome back. top of the third hour of "morning joe." >> you know, we were just talking about -- michael was asking about the hours we do. we were saying it's much tougher for the team because they go five hours. it's likely coverage. the exception is t.j. who is usually north carolina vacation. >> he directs from a disney cruise. >> i know. >> and jonathan lemire. >> just keeps going. something weird happened last night.

we actually won. >> again? >> again? we lost two to colorado. we won last night. what happened? >> must have been a mistake. they go 2 out of 3 in the bronx and lose two in a row to the last place rockies. they won last night. they were down late. they had a comeback. whitlock was pretty good. we're seeing some highlights here. this was the hit to give us the lead. it's yankees/red sox this weekend at fenway. >> there's something cool happening in baseball right now. the first place teams in baseball are the tampa rays, the pittsburgh pirates, texas rangers, arizona diamondbacks. >> how are the mets? >> no mets. >> these small market teams where you thought they had no shot, they're winning their divisions.

>> it's really exciting. look at the pirates who have been suffering for so long and they're in first place. you're a reds fan? >> i'm a mets fan. >> i am too. they're doing bad. >> did the mets win last night? >> yeah, they walked off in the tenth. joining us now washington correspondent and mets fan -- >> show it. >> t.j. a huge mets fan. >> what? >> escobar went to tag up and he almost doesn't score on that play. >> do they challenge it? >> no. he was fine, but it was closer than it should have been. >> there you go. michael schmidt is here with us. >> if you had been a mets fan for as long as he has, you would be feeling that way too.

>> also with us nbc news legal analyst, andrew wiseman who is tired. do you ever sleep, sir? >> i do every now and then. >> i think he might be loopy, but he's got some interesting things to bring to the table today. former federal prosecutor is a contributing writer for "politico" magazine. michael, you're part of a "new york times" reporting on the team that's looking at judge aileen cannon, the judge that will preside over president trump's case. apparently she has little experience running criminal cases and may not be ready for the trial. according to the paper, in cannon's two-year tenure, just 4 of the 224 cases the judge has been assigned have gone to trial. those cases resulted in just 14

days of her sitting as a judge in a trial. lawyers who have appeared before cannon describe her as, quote, generally competent and straightforward as well as someone who doesn't have a reputation of being sympathetic to defendants. >> unless they're donald trump. >> they also said she's demonstrably inexperienced and can bristle when she's questioned. >> like the 11th circuit that said, congratulations, your ruling as undermined the found indication of american constitutional law. you take that with the fact that, you know, some judges have a lifetime of experience. she has about a lunchtime worth of experience. she's about to hear the most important criminal case in u.s. history. >> and a complicated one, one

that involves classified information as evidenced, attorney/client privilege evidence that came from lawyers about their own client. you would have to be able to pick a jury of unbiased jurors about someone like donald trump who's probably the most polarizing figure certainly in my lifetime. it's an enormous challenge she faced. we did this thing where we found all 224 criminal matters that have appeared before her. we went through on the online docket to see which ones went to trial. the research department at "the times" did a tremendous job and we were able to find these four cases. in the four cases we were able to find out how many days those trials went. if i remember correctly, one trial was five days, a few were

two or three or four and it added up to about two weeks of trial experience. >> 14 days. >> look, you know, federal prosecutors and lawyers will tell you all sorts of things about the law and everything. they say at a basic level experience is really, really important, especially if you're -- >> i understand it's assigned randomly. again, in my experience, which is limited experience, there would be a discussion. if a federal judge or state court judge got a really complex case, if they just weren't qualify to handle it, there would be a discussion and the judge would say, you know what, for now this is above my pay grade. this is too complex. let's move it to another division. i'm just curious, again, with

the -- just forget her disastrous ruling where she was humiliated. forget that. i'm shocked that this continues to move forward and she's not recusing herself because she's woefully ill-equipped to do this. i would say the same thing of the most progressive judge ever if they had this experience, but she's woefully ill-equipped to handle this. is there no way this circuit doesn't step forward? >> so the justice department could ask for this to happen, but in that case you would really be antagonizing the judge, especially if the judge is not going to be removed. imagine if jack smith were to say, hey, we think you need to recuse yourself and step aside. that would be a big affront to

the judge. then if the judge stays, then the government is fighting an uphill battle in front of that judge. they had to have known, if they brought the case in florida, that this was an issue. they had to bring it in florida because that's where the crimes happened. nevertheless, it is a huge wild card. i just think in terms of the entire matter, it's a humongous deal that this judge got it. the clerk has said they followed their normal procedures. >> maybe in the most important case in u.s. criminal history, maybe they don't just follow the normal procedure. maybe they sit around the table and talk about it and say this is extraordinarily important and, judge, with all due respect you have 14 hours of trial work. do you think you're qualified to do this? >> her ruling in which you were

referencing which the circuit court really embarrassed her in many ways, the judicial branch -- >> 14 days. i said hours. i meant 14 days. >> the judicial branch in the face of trump has largely i would say -- most people would say held up pretty well compared to the other branches of government. this will be a test of the entire judicial branch in a way that this could be the most high-profile case in american history. this is a huge deal. >> andrew wiseman, is there any chance there's a change here? you can see how this plays out if a trump-friendly judge is moved off the case, you can hear the cries. is there anyway this moves off

judge cannon? >> there's no signs she's going to remove herself. >> there's a couple things that could happen. >> the justice department could move to recuse her. then she says no and it goes to the court of appeals. the other thing they can do, which is more likely, is wait for her first erroneous ruling and given that she's had two decisions reversed in scathing opinions by a conservative 11th circuit court, including by judges appointed by donald trump. they did their duty and reversed her. they could wait for her to make another misstep, appeal that and in that appeal ask it be reassigned to a different judge. that's a route that, while it's not common, does occur. that would be the third time that she was reversed, not just

in any case, but in this very investigation. i think that is still something that could happen. >> i just want to underline this again, the 11th circuit didn't just say she made an erroneous ruling of law. they said that what she did undermined the foundational concept in american law that no person is above the law and carved the exception out for presidents and then said her ruling also did violence to the most basic notions of separation of powers. i mean, it's breathtaking. that's a stinging rebuke, as any judge could have. i can't remember a more stinging rebuke. >> absolutely. a friend of mine who is a federal judge said to me she wouldn't have gotten out of bed that morning, she would have

been so embarrassed. the real issue is this was the first reversal of her. people thought, okay, it's a brushback. she'll learn her lesson and adhere to the facts of the law and it had no deterrent effect at all. her second reversal continued because of the same conduct. that's why it's hard to see she's going to change her stripes at this point. basically the doj could wait for another instance and use that as the vehicle to get her removed from the case. >> you're also writing with ryan goodman about jack smith's backup option. talk about that. >> just on terms of no sleep, it helps to have a co-author who has insomnia. that's the trick to being able

to be on with you and be able to publish pieces. >> there you go. >> one of the curious things in the florida indictment is in paragraphs 32 through 36, where the two most serious allegations are in those paragraphs and involves not just the retention of documents, but the possession of documents that are top secret, but the dissemination of information in those documents to a third party. that's a much more serious crime. not just the risk of dissemination, but actual dissemination. those instances are described in those paragraphs, but they're not separately charged. in other words, they're not counts against the former president. that's curious. ryan and i were thinking about why did that happen? why are they not charging those

things? one of the possible answers to that is that those two instances happened in bedminster which is in new jersey, not florida. the reason the current case is in florida is because that's where the crime occurred. this dissemination happened in bedminster. it gives the doj a chance to see how this case goes, watch what's happening with judge cannon, see how disastrous she might be, as she was in the investigation. these are definitely charges that could be brought in new jersey. dissemination is a really serious crime. they could be brought within the right statute of limitations. the venue because it happened in bedminster which is in new

jersey. >> fascinating, andrew, that it ticked off your spidey sense. to make it clear for our viewers, would this be instead of florida or is it a parallel track, a separate case? >> separate case. you could still have your florida case, which deals with illegal possession, but you could also charge in new jersey illegal dissemination. the documents at issue and the information at issue is separate from anything charged in florida. you can't charge the same thing in two different locations. you're entitled to only be charged once. these would be separate charges. absent a waiver by donald trump, it's very unlikely these could be brought in florida against the former president.

>> your latest piece for "new york magazine" is entitled the lock him up election. you write trump is walking a tight rope, but so too is biden. even if a trial takes place next year and trump is convicted, there will be appeals and trump will likely be allowed to remain free while that unfolds, perhaps even actively campaigning on how he should be re-elected so he can pardon himself and prosecute biden. after the manhattan charges were filed, biden stayed far away from commenting on trump's case and he's likely to do so in the near term over this indictment. this will not be tenable so long as trump is a candidate. as a result the biden campaign will have to defend this project and the underlying principles they reflect whether they like

it or not, which will put them in the strange and, yes, again, unprecedented position of having to support the prosecution of the sitting president's most significant political rival, the very thing that biden hoped to avoid upon entering office. we all knew, joe, that trump -- i mean, even when he lost the election that he says he won, he lost. there's that. it wasn't going to be completely over with donald trump, and he can use this. >> there's still so much more ahead, isn't there? >> yeah, there's a lot more left to this story. obviously the case itself needs to reach some sort of resolution. that resolution may be complicated by the political calendar and trump's re-election if that comes to pass. if trump is re-elected, we're seeing the signs. in the speech the other night

there was a very aggressive counteroffensive and it's very worrisome. i can't say i'm surprised given what i wrote in the piece. it's a very, very dark kind of vision of the future and one that should worry everyone. >> isn't it a very complex kind of campaign, though, for a president, a former president, to be running to say put me back in office and i'm running against the system that i want to be in charge of? i mean, how does he slice that apple to say, on one hand i've done this for you, i brought this into actuality, putting three people on the supreme court, put me back in power, but at the same time i'm asking you to vote against the powers that have conspired against real americans? >> the argument struggles on the

logic for the reasons you described. trump has maintained this outsider duality, even when he was president. he was rallying against his own administration almost on a daily basis. the major problem with this notion that trump is going to clean house, if you needed to clean house, that should have happened in his first term, and that didn't happen. i think it's like -- logically it's preposterous that he would come in and say he's going to fix this system that he's been involved in, but it's also a very, very dangerous notion. i'm worried already that, you know, republican voters, both primary voters and general election voters, may be moving the party in that direction. if a gop nominee manages to beat biden, things could get very ugly. >> at least so far the white house not agreeing with your argument. as i reported yesterday, not

only does president biden want to remain tight lipped, he's given directives to his campaign staff, the dnc, the white house staff to not say anything about trump's legal issues. some democrats are questioning that strategy because there's still so much legal peril on the horizon for trump. michael schmidt, i want to go back to you on that. we're so focussed on what's happening in florida and possibly new jersey. give us the updates you've heard about the january 6th investigation that jack smith is also running and whether people you talk to are agreeing with this beltway chatter that an indictment which seems unlikely there now feels like it may be coming. >> as we reported days before trump's indictment, mark meadows has met with and given testimony to the grand juries that were investigating both documents and

the january 6th matter. that's a really important witness. it certainly seems and shows from our reporting that they're still moving their way through a final round of witnesses in that investigation. to me as an observer, it seems like if they were willing to cross the -- over into the word of charging trump on documents, it has to be in their mind easier to do on january 6th than it would have been otherwise. that would be the third time that he's been charged and it certainly seems like, you know, right before the documents investigation that there was some momentum building towards the end of that investigation. now, is the end of it three or six months out? i'm not sure. they do have mark meadows who is important in an unusual way to different witnesses because he

is not someone that we heard from in the january 6th investigation. we did see a batch of his text messages at the beginning of that investigation. he famously turned around and began not cooperating. he was never interviewed by the committee, but jack smith has interviewed him. we know that meadows' profile in trump's world has diminished significantly in the past months. we don't know everything he told the grand jury, but jack smith has a witness that the january 6th committee never had direct access to. >> all right. michael schmidt, andrew wiseman, thank you all very much for your insight this morning. >> michael, congratulations on the mets. you can celebrate. >> hey, a win is a big deal. it's been a very, very tough

run. >> it has been bleak. >> yeah, the amazing mets. >> especially with the highest payroll by $75 million. >> that's a lot. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll dig into more reporting on how some of the people in donald trump's inner circle could become witnesses against him when it comes to his handling of classified documents. plus, nbc news correspondent richard engel joins us on the heels of his new interview with president volodymyr zelenskyy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. orning joe." we'll be right back.

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♪♪ like january 6th, the close circle of aides and confidants

that surround president trump could be his biggest weakness in his case. "the new york times" writes the pressure of those around him has only increased. the house committee's investigation last year on trump's determination to retain power, chief among the possible witnesses is molly michael, trump's former assistant who worked for him in the white house and then went on to work for mar-a-lago according to two people familiar with the matter. she's known as trump employee two and told prosecutors that trump himself packed and looked through the boxes, contrary to what trump's lawyers claim. the name cassidy hutchinson springs to mind. she kind of blew open the entire story of what happened on

january 6th. it makes it difficult for others to call it a witch hunt when the hunt is coming from inside the house. >> and it's not just molly. there are a number of other figures that could potentially testify here. yes, molly michael did have a firsthand view. we've known for over a year that she was intimately involved with the logistics around these boxes, that she was cooperating with the department of justice and she ended up leaving trump's employ. there are still, though, a handful of individuals who have cooperated with the investigation and one of whom is actually a target and co-defendant, walt nauta, who are still in trump's employ. trump and the rest of the staff have been rallying around nauta

in hopes he doesn't turn on the former president. he too has a lot of information detailed in that 49-page indictment. there's a reason why judge goodman asked that trump not speak with the witnesses in the case going forward, which is something that any good defense attorney would recommend that their client do. there was a special condition granted tuesday since these are the people that his lawyer, todd blanche, keep the president's life moving. it was a pretty surreal scene and a split screen molly versus walt nauta to see walt accompanying the president all throughout the week and toggling between co-conspirator and trump's body man. >> it's amazing. the guy's life is on the line, like literally on the line as far as, you know, whether he's going to be spending time in

federal jail for a very long time for extraordinary documents. i mean, remove this from donald trump. if this were not donald trump, if this were not the figure we've been following for eight years, there would be no doubt trump and his aid would be going to jail for decades, for absolute decades. coming up, how to hold a public trial when the key evidence is classified. "politico"'s betsy woodruff swan joins us with her new reporting when "morning joe" comes right back. comes right back but we got there, thanks to our advisor and vanguard. now i see who all that hard work was for... it was always for you. seeing you carry on our legacy— i'm so proud. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. setting up the future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership.

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so we were talking about -- >> pretty shot of the white house. >> we were talking about the problems that donald trump has and that republicans were going to be hurt by supporting him. then we were talking about republicans want to raise the age for social security and

privatizing medicare. >> they want guns, lots of them. >> no gun safety legislation. >> this is a winning platform. >> at least they have the abortion issue going for them, right? >> no. nearly a year after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, a new poll shows they support legalizing abortion. 67% of americans say abortion should be legal. that's up from the high set last may when the dobbs decision was released. that's up and it's not just republicans. >> nearly 50% of republicans. jen, this is a question a lot of

people keep asking republicans. when are you going to get straight on abortion? you know, look at kansas, look at kentucky, look at what happened in wisconsin. these states republicans should be winning they're getting crushed on the issue of abortion. in that wisconsin case, they kept an 1849 law, a total ban on abortion, on the books. again, it's just political malpractice. >> absolutely. it turns out women don't like their rights being taken away. go figure. that's what we're seeing here. joe, what is interesting in terms of the politics of abortion is what's happening in the republican primary. you have a number of these candidates who can't quite figure out where they are, where they want to be. many don't want to commit to an abortion ban. they're unwilling to give the number of weeks. for a long time the issue of abortion and where you were on

the issue of choice was pretty uniform in the republican party and what you would say at a campaign event. that has changed. the republican primary debates about this and where candidates are, whether it's scott or haley or others, is an indication of how the politics of this country and where the public is are impacting political leaders and how they're running for office. >> you have ron desantis who is viewed as perhaps the alternative to trump should everything with his legal troubles go sideways, who signed into law a six-week abortion ban. it may serve him well in a primary, but may not in a general election. >> democrats point to it as one of the most definitive issues of the 2022 midterms. they don't see that changing for

2024. with so many states taking on new abortion legislation, with so much energy around the issue and so many women unhappy with where happens landed, that's going to be something that tips the scales. we talk about the independent swing voters who will decide next year's election, those with which trump is already struggling. the abortion issue could be the deciding one for women. coming up, our next guest says the case against donald trump is strong, but there could be some problems. that's when "morning joe" comes back. back enters the room. phil: excuse me? hillary: that wasn't me. narrator: said hillary, who's only taken 347 steps today. hillary: i cycled here. narrator: speaking of cycles, mary's period is due to start in three days. mary: how do they know so much about us? narrator: your all sharing health data without realizing it. that's how i know about kevin's rash.

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we're addressing the students' everyday needs. kenny: what we do allows them to be the best version of themselves. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." a new report reveals conservatives in the house are looking to cut who's eligible for social security benefits.

bloomberg reports the republican study committee has proposed raising the retirement age to collect social security to 69. the current retirement age for full benefits is 66 and rising gradually to 67. bloomberg points out the same group abandoned a proposal from last year that would have increased the medicare retirement age, but they're seeking to privatize the program. for the first time in a year the federal reserve voted to skip raising interest rates. the central bank is pressing pause to see if the stiff rate hikes can get inflation down to the fed's 2% target. joining us now with charts -- it's supposed to be steve ratner. you need to come back over here. >> the thing is i was going to

have steve do this, but i remembered i took econ 1 in college. i don't remember if you remember this, mika, i did debate on the charlie rose show a nobel prize winning economist. >> i've never seen you sweat more. >> he said i won the debate, but here's the thing i won it more on style than substance. when he started to talk about quantitative easing, charlie asked me what i thought. i said water slides are fun. >> i like purple. >> the fed pauses the hikes. this is a red line. >> stop. >> red, you know, it pulls us in. attracts us. >> bring steve in please. steve? >> i'll turn it over to steve ratner. >> yes, out. >> joe, you were doing so great. >> steve, we actually want to know what's going on please.

let's talk about -- just get your chair over here. it's time to sit. >> this will wake up the kids. >> thank you. >> come on, kids. >> all right, steve, go, baby. >> steve, start with your first chart. the fed pauses the hike signals more what? >> there's a lot of red squiggles and blue squiggles. anyway, the fed increased interest rates at its tenth consecutive meeting. i don't think i've ever seen that before. you can see the tightening cycles for the last 40 years. this has been the steepest, the fastest because we have an inflation problem we have to deal with. what did the fed say yesterday? we can use the word skip and pause. jay powell used the word skip and then he corrected and said pause because he didn't want to

commit himself to another rate increase. they raised their projections from 5% to 5.5% at the end of the year. the fed also said yesterday the economy has been a bit stronger than we thought. they raised their projections to 1% growth this year. they lowered their unemployment rate and slightly raised their inflation rate. going out, you can see they raised the interest rate forecast for the rest of the year. this is the market. the market is more optimistic than the fed and thinks the fed will end at 5% and decline from there. that's the outlook for interest rates. >> let's talk about what's been happening. it has been easing, but everybody extraordinarily cautious, even you with your chart. willie, what did you call that wall? >> the green monster of cable news. it's an iconic wall. >> the next time he comes, i'm

serious, you can pitch or i can pitch, before he comes out we're playing wiffle. >> no. oh, god. >> even on your green monster, you talk about it's slowly easing. nobody is ready to say inflation is over, are they? >> nobody is ready to say that. i think this has to be the biggest wall in the business. nobody else has a wall like this. >> you got it. you own it. >> my friends at cnbc must be jealous. >> i bet they are. >> inflation is the key to this. the fed doesn't want to raise rates more than it has to. they're watching inflation carefully. inflation is continuing to come down. this is the overall inflation rate. we went up the mountain and are coming back down the mountain. that's good news. we're back to where we were in early part of 2021. that's the positive side. what the fed likes to look at is

something called core services, meaning the real heart of the economy when you take out food and energy, a lot of stuff that moves around. what is the core doing? it's driven by labor costs. core isn't quite as good. we've gone up. we've come down. we're sitting at above 4% and that's a good way away from the fed's 2% target. >> obviously this economy has just been extraordinarily resilient, especially when it comes to jobs, when it comes to wages. what's that looking like? what's your third chart? >> that's the point, joe. the economy i don't think many expected. if the fed is watching really and what's going to drive this inflation is two things. one is going to be wages. normally we want wages to go up. we obviously want workers to

earn more. but if it creates inflation, it's counter productive because their purchasing power goes away. ages in 2015 were appropriate. with covid wage rates jumped up to over 5.5%. they started to come down, but they're still above 5%. they really need to get back down here in order for us to have that 2% inflation the fed is so targeted on. the other thing that's keeping inflation reasonably high is companies' pricing. companies in a strong economy have a lot of pricing power. they're able to pass these costs through, which also contributes to pricing. corporate profits took off during the pandemic, $3 trillion of corporate profits. even adjusted for inflation, corporate profits are still

bouncing around to kind of record level. because of the strength of the economy, companies have the ability to pass the costs through. that also helps keep the inflation rate down. we need to see a bit more competition on the pricing side. coming up, does more trouble for trump mean harsher attacks on president biden? our next guest says republicans will go scorched earth to deflect the former president's problems. o deflect the former president's problems [ tires screeching ] jordana, easy on the gas. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break. yeah, we let you pick your own due date. good to know, because this next scene might take a while. for a great low rate, go with the general. trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪

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♪♪ welcome back. women are contributing more to their families' income than ever before. nearly one-third of american women in heterosexual relationships now earn more money than their spouse or partner. but according to a new study, traditional thinking about money and relationships has hardly changed, and that could continue

to hold women back. here so explain is maggie mcgrath and huma abedin. maggie, first of all, this is a ubs study. what did they find about women breadwinners? >> we know that the share of female breadwinners, sole or primary breadwinners, has tripled. >> that's a lot. >> so we are earning more financial power, which is great. yet, just half of these breadwinners say they are short for their household's financial planning. 51% of bill paying is done by primary female breadwinners. 79% of men who are the primary earners decide how the bills are getting paid. long-term financial decisions, just 48% of women who are the primary earners are making those decisions, but 78% of men are doing the same thing. the biggest thing that concerns

me is that just about half of these women who are the primary earners say they're comfortable with their status of primary earners. nearly 90% of men who are the primary earners say they are comfortable. men are more comfortable being the primary earner. what this study shows is outdated gender norms are affecting the way women think and interact with money, and women are ceding financial power to their spouse. that's problematic, because we know 74% of women experience a negative financial surprise after the death or divorce of a spouse. when you are ceding financial decisions to your spouse, you are ceding control of your financial future. >> so what is going on here? huma, why do you think women breadwinners are still sort of relinquishing their power over important financial decisions? >> this survey is called tradition, trust and time.

i think tradition really is the keyword here. the primary core challenge, i think particularly for women of gen x generation, there is this sort of deep conflict about our relationship with money. you know, ada calhoun wrote this book called "why we can't sleep." she has a chapter called "money panic." she makes the argument in the book that gen x women in particular have a 50% chance of making more money than our parents' generation. our mothers raise us to say go make money, because money equals freedom and power. so what's enough? we're constantly in this panic to make money but we don't know what's enough. we make it. we don't know what to do with it because the financial industry and the long-term investment of your own money is overwhelming. so you get married or end up with a partner and cede this

over. >> you handle it. >> the reason why this is so crucial, my mother managed all the finances in our house. when i was married for the brief period i was married, i let anthony do everything. it is a generational societal issue. >> for forbes women, maggie, you looked into data about how more women are outearning their husbands, but the household division of labor remains inequitable. in other words, women are spending more time doing chores and caregiving than their male counterparts. that happens in my family. there are certain things that come to me. i can't imagine my brother doing what i did with my mom. it was the natural thing, it

felt like. >> i think tradition and stigma can play into this. women do 2.5 times that of their male counterpart. that's three hours of extra time cooking and cleaning a week. that doesn't sound like much. i went to a women's event last night where people were talking about how time is money and influence. again, societal stigma is affecting women's influence here. >> as a single mom, you do it all, everything, huma. >> yes, yes. also, i think one of the best ways to solve this, first of all, is having conversations about it. this investor at an event i was at a few months ago stood up and said women need to start talking about how to invest their money

for long-term financial security the same way we talk about where we get our hair colored. >> i totally agree. i think it frightens some women now and we need to normalize it. we're normalizing things today like brain fog and money. maggie mcgrath and huma abedin, thank you very much. we get ready to unveil our next summit. thank you very much for being on. we are two minutes into the fourth hour of "morning joe," 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. we begin with the latest developments in the federal case against donald trump. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander reports. >> reporter: this morning, former president trump locked in a battle with the department of justice as his indictment keeps dominating the 2024 race. with mr. trump repeatedly attacking the probe.

>> the prosecutor in the case, i will call it our case, is a thug. >> reporter: attorney general merrick garland responding in his first comments since this week's arraignment, defending special counsel jack smith, who he appointed. >> mr. smith is a veteran career prosecutor. he has assembled a group of experienced and talented prosecutors and agents who share his commitment to integrity and the rule of law. >> now mr. trump's former chief of staff john kelly, a vocal critic is telling the "washington post" that his former boss is, quote, scared expletive. for the first time in his life, kelly says, it looks like he's being held accountable. the unprecedented criminal case is giving mr. trump, already the political frontrunner, a boost among gop voters. more than 43% support him for the nomination.

three quarters say the chargers have no impact in whether they'll support him for the 2024 election. mike pence is appearing to take a tougher stance on the allegations and the justice department's decision to charge mr. trump. >> i can't defend what is alleged, but the former president has a right to his day in court. >> reporter: on the campaign trail, the gop candidates are now being asked if they would pardon the former president if convicted. nikki haley responded -- >> i would be in favor of a pardon. >> reporter: pence faced blowback on a conservative radio show for not answering. >> i think it's premature. >> to me, not answering is a no. >> we've stand by the rule of law, or we don't. >> what i'm hearing is you're fine with donald trump being put in prison, sir. >> reporter: all of it a sign of how mr. trump and his legal

challenges continue to overwhelm the republican field. >> nbc's peter alexander with that report. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst neal katyal. i'd love to go through the headlines with you. it seems even in mike pence's tone and shift in his phraseology, if i may, that there are republicans that are seeing very clearly the seriousness of this indictment. then the "washington post" has come out with a piece that really is very close to donald trump's personality where he thinks it's never over for him and he can push and he can win on everything and that he rejected his lawyers' efforts to avoid a settlement with the doj on the classified documents. what do you make of that? does that ring true for you in terms of following the actions of this former president?

>> right. i think there are two separate questions. one is the republican opposition to what donald trump did, and the second is trump's opposition to listening to his lawyers, as detailed in the "washington post" article. with respect to the former, i think the trajectory of criticism of trump is really important. i mean, the night that mar-a-lago happened, the day mar-a-lago happened, i was on our network talking about how big of a deal this was, that those of us who'd handled classified information knew this was going to culminate in an indictment of donald trump. that was dismissed by many people, excused by many people who said it was no big deal. you know, obviously the indictment showed it was a big deal. think about all the criticism he's gotten since. i mean, bill barr said trump is toast because of this, that he's going to jail.

secretary of state mike pompeo, trump's own former chief of staff mick mulvaney, trump's second chief of staff john kelley, former national security advisor john bolton, it's like trump's entire cabinet at this point is condemning what trump did and said he's likely to go to jail for it. on the other side of what the new "washington post" reporting is, i don't think we should be surprised that donald trump didn't listen to anyone. the article said that he claimed to be the smartest person in the room and the documents were all his and that he had no interest in turning them over even once he was warned they were very sensitive and classified. that is despicable behavior for anyone who's handled classified information. that material is generated with the blood and sweat of our intelligence community, of the foreign intelligence community. it cannot be treated that cavalierly. >> trump has a long shot to

avoid jail time. i guess that would be the presidency. the other area of interest here would be the judge, aileen cannon. there's been an extensive look of late at her experience or lack thereof, let alone her ruling earlier that was just -- she was humiliated in terms of reaction to an earlier ruling in this very case. and yet this is her case. could this be helpful to the former president in terms of especially dragging it out through the election cycle? >> yeah. it's certainly possible that any judge could delay things. that's a reality of this. delay it past the november 24 election, i think very, very difficult to do. but you describe this as a long shot that trump has that he's going to win the election and

therefore pardon himself or drop the prosecution. i agree it's a long shot, but it's a shorter shot than his other alternative which is to try and mount a viable defense in a court of law. so far we've heard whining about hillary clinton and joe biden's garage. those are not legal arguments in a court of law. arguments in a court of law, judge cannon will review the evidence and a timetable for the trial. to me, i think it's very hard to predict what any particular judge will do, but i think it's important. i think jack smith's decision, the prosecutor, to charge this in florida shows he's really confident in the strength of his case. doesn't matter who the judge is, who the jury is. we have pretty simple rules for the handling of classified

information and how you deal with authorities when you're asked to return information. lying about it and sending your attorneys out to lie about it and asking your attorneys wouldn't it be better if all this disappeared, all this evidence and making plucking motions, that turns out not to be legal. >> speaking of jack smith, andrew weissman, i don't know if you've had a chance to take a look about the bedminster theory, about perhaps bringing charged in bedminster, new jersey. is that possible, and why bedminster, new jersey? >> the indictment talks about two instances in which donald trump actually gave classified information to people without security clearances after he was president. one thing to do when you're president. trump did it in the oval office famously with the russians, gave them really sensitive intelligence information. that's not illegal when you're

president. when you're not president and you're walking around with classified information you're not supposed to have, you certainly can't be disseminating it to others. jack smith didn't indict that yet, but it's in his back pocket. i think andrew is right to say there's the possibility of the new jersey indictment. i wouldn't rule out also the possibility of an indictment for some of this mishandling in washington, d.c. i do think that if any particular judge were so recalcitrant to try and bring the case to trial that he would have options to go back to washington, d.c. and handle it with someone who knows how to deal with classified information. the washington, d.c. courts are very good at that. they apply the classified information procedures routinely, so they have a lot of experience. so if this judge is slowing things down too much, they have the possibility to go back to d.c. >> neal katyal, thank you very

much for being on this morning. we have reverend al sharpton and jonathan lemire back with us and joining us are betsy woodruff swan is with us. reverend al, knowing trump, the thought of him saying, no, i don't want to settle with the doj, i want to keep my boxes, that is so trumpy. that is so him, is it not? >> absolutely. >> it's never done with him. >> never done. he will always play i'm the strong guy, i'm not showing weakness. >> and these are mine. >> and these are mine. he will go to the end of this trial saying at least to the press these are mine, i'm being oppressed, i'm being mistreated, these are mine, i have the right

to them. who would say i can in my mind declassify things? only someone that is -- >> well, only someone who has a cult-like tendency who thinks they can say things and they become true. my point is, the doj was very kind every step of testify way. i don't think anyone else in donald trump's position would be treated as kindly as he was and as patiently. they asked, they asked again, the national archives makes requests. it took a long time before they actually issued a subpoena and he defies it. they probably could have settled, right? >> i think they would have settled. his arrogance and acting above the law is what brought him here. he could have easily resolved this. >> he could have easily resolved it, but it was months and months, as you know. they got some documents and

realized they didn't get all of them. that's when they made the raid and they found more after the raid. it's just unbelievable that he behaves that way and the right tosses up false equivalencies about joe biden's garage. >> brutal stupidity. >> this is what they do. this is what they're doing with biden and the so-called biden crime family and all that stuff. >> betsy, your latest report delves into how a public trial could play out when the key evidence is classified. >> there's a bunch of complexity here. it's governed by the classified information procedures act . we reviewed the history of judge aileen cannon, the criminal cases she's handled. we couldn't find a single example of a case that involved classified material and the type of proceedings that she's going

to have to start dealing with right away in the case of trump's forthcoming potential trial. the first step that we would expect would be for doj attorneys to move to basically educate judge cannon in a pretrial conference with trump's defense lawyers on how these things are going to work. now, to the point that you also made about atypically favorable treatment trump is already receiving, one piece of this classified information procedures act process where he will have a benefit that the vast majority of other similarly charged criminal defendants won't have is, to state the obvious, trump is not in jail. that means once the classified materials that are relevant are where for his defense lawyers to look at, he'll be able to look at them too. there is a skiff at the judicial complex where trump's case is going to be heard. most defendants are

incarcerated. there usually aren't skiffs in jails. trump, of course, is not in jail, so he'll be able to look at whatever documents end up being green lit by the judge for use in his trial. >> betsy, because of this, the inherent complications of these classified documents, is there a sense how that's going to slow things down? the question of time is so pressing in any criminal matter, but particularly this one when the defendant is running for reelection and it's in his interest to drag things out as long as possible. >> there's no question when you're dealing with classified materials like this, it just makes things slower. doj can do everything they want to expedite, but these are sensitive, complex materials just from glancing over the indictment, materials related to nuclear weapons, military contingency planning.

before this indictment came down, almost certainly prosecutors at doj would have essentially entered negotiations with the u.s. intelligence agencies that own these documents that got spirited away to mar-a-lago. there's a deep tension that exists in any cases involving classified material, because doj and the u.s. criminal justice system do work inherently public facing. that's a bedrock, cherished part of our constitutional system. the intelligence community, meanwhile, is the opposite. the work they do is fundamentally and essentially secret. what we have is an instance of these two essential values almost clashing. the justice department prosecutors would have already talked with people at the relevant intelligence agencies to say there's this document, how much detail can we go into, how about these documents? sometimes there's pushback when these negotiations happen. sometimes intelligence agencies

try to prevent prosecutions because they're so worried about their most cherished secrets becoming public. obviously in this case trump's prosecution is moving forward. we can assume the classified documents in that indictment have all gotten to an extent some sort of green light from the intelligence community for doj to use. of course, one big question is just how much can they be used at trial. if judge cannon says these documents need to be used more publicly than the intelligence wants them to be used, that will be a big challenge for doj. >> jeannie, in your latest piece in the new yorker, you write about the inevitable issues that will arrive now that the doj is charging the former president. i just want to read one piece of your article. the elements of the crimes are so straightforward to establish considering the facts alleged that one wonders whether trump

wanted to be prosecuted. i can't imagine. i mean, these charges are so unbelievably serious. what are some of the conundrums that the country ultimately will confront because of this? >> well, when people found out about the indictment, i think some may have celebrated, thinking, oh, this is the end of trump's 2024 presidential campaign. in fact, that's very unlikely, because there is no law saying that he can't keep running even while indicted. in fact, we have a presidential candidate from the past who has done that. it's eugene dubs from 1920. he ran for president from jail while he was imprisoned under the espionage act, which is the same law that trump is dieted under. for eugene debs, it was for

anti-war speech that was considered seditious speech. for trump, this is a much more serious and valid allegation, which is the retention of classified documents. the other problem is that if he were to be convicted, if everything went well and he were to be convicted and imprisoned, that still wouldn't prevent him from becoming president of the united states. there is, in fact, no law or constitutional provision that would prevent that. >> i'm beginning to sweat a little bit. i understand that completely. i think donald trump understands that and very much so would like to use a lot of this to kind of fill in his narrative. this indictment fits into the entire platform of a witch hunt. that could be difficult along the way, especially for prosecutors to try and keep this down the line just the facts and

keep the noise out of this. donald trump is going to want all the noise possible during this trial. >> that's right. this will become a platform for campaigning for president. we have yet to see, but it is very possible this will give him a boost to actually win back the white house. that is a real possibility that we cannot ignore. let's say that he were to be elected president, at that point he would be the president of the united states with control of the justice department. the justice department is an agency under the president. so he would have the power to get the justice department, if the case were still ongoing, he could have the justice department drop the case all together. and if he were, in fact, convicted already, then the justice department has a

position, first of all, that if he were not convicted yet, the justice department couldn't keep prosecuting him under their own legal opinion from the llc, the office of legal counsel from 2007 that says you don't prosecute a currently sitting president. then, of course, there's the possibility of a presidential pardon that he would try to use for himself. that's just uncharted territory. we've never had any litigation over that. i just cannot imagine that a supreme court would say that that is constitutional for a president to pardon himself, but there are arguments that you can make based on the text of the constitution which does not prohibit that kind of pardon. >> it's a fascinating piece in the new yorker. it in some ways describes trump's pathway to freedom, especially if these charges against him bear out. michael, in your latest piece

entitled "inside the gop's latest desperate attempt to smear joe biden" you write, if you get your news on planet earth, you agree with me that the biggest news story last week was the federal indictment of donald trump. if, however, you get your news on planet wing nuttia, you have been led to believe that while the trump matter certainly was news, the bigger deal by several orders of magnitude was the proof that emerged last week that joe biden took a $5 million bribe from ukraine and that representative jamie raskin lied about it. help me out here. on the day of the indictment, it drives joe crazy, but i watch fox news and newsmax and other outlets to see what they're saying. when the indictment came out, especially on fox, it was like, oh, this is serious. you had a lot of legal analysts and people saying this is really

bad. but as the hours went on and you went to 7:00 at night, all of a sudden it was all about joe biden and hunter and there was a lot of screaming. tell me about this bribe and the proof of it and all the reporting around it. it must be very serious. >> it must be, yes. the big picture here is everything we've been talking about here for the last several minutes the republicans know and the right-wing media outlets know. they know they're about to hitch their wagon to the most corrupt man who's ever been president or run for president. the flip side of that coin is they have to dirty up joe biden. >> so they've been trying for a very long time. >> right. this supposed $5 million bribe that he allegedly took from somebody in ukraine is an old story. rudy giuliani was pedding it many years ago. bill barr when he was attorney

general appointed a special prosecutor to look into it, scott brady. i don't know exactly what he did. i know he interviewed giuliani once for several hours, but he never brought any charges. he's back in private practice. it's apparently dropped, although the u.s. attorney in delaware is supposedly looking into it. do i know for a fact that joe biden never took a bribe? of course not. anything is possible, i suppose. but i do know for a fact a couple of things. joe biden's been in public life for half a century and we've never seen any financial scandal attached to his name, number one. number two, they have to make joe biden dirty, they have to make him corrupt. >> i think probably they're going to use every angle they can, him, his son, the family. they've even started a whisper campaign, especially in red states in the south that you're really voting for kamala harris

because joe won't be around to be president. i think nikki haley said he won't last two years. she said this out loud. i think we're going to see some of the ugliest campaigning we've seen in our lifetime. >> without question. they run ugly campaigns. i say in the article that you quoted from it's been part of the m.o. since clinton certainly to say a lot of things about democrats' character that are just simply untrue. think about all the things said at barack obama, that he's a muslim and born in kenya and so forth. they're going to quadruple down now. you see trump saying the biden family is the most corrupt family and so on. >> buckle up. michael te mass i can, thank you. betsy woodruff swan and jeannie

suk gersen, thank you very much for being on this morning. coming up, secretary of state antony blinken will travel to beijing tomorrow in a long awaited rescheduling of a visit that was cancelled over that spy balloon saga back in february. we'll have the details. details what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪

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secretary of state antony blinken will visit beijing in a high-stakes trip. the trip by blinken was scheduled for february, but was postponed due to that spy balloon thing that beijing blew

over the united states. turning to the war in ukraine where a senior commander in ukraine's military said his forces have regained control of roughly 48 square miles of territory. his claims have not been independently verified as ukraine pushes forward with its counteroffensive. joining us from kyiv is richard engel. you sat down with president zelenskyy at the presidential palace this morning. let's take a look at that. >> reporter: we are now in the early days of this long-anticipated counteroffensive. how would you describe progress so far? >> translator: i cannot give you all the details. there are both defensive and offensive actions. things look not bad. i would say it's generally positive, but it's difficult.

our heroic people, our troops who are now on the front line are facing very tough resistance. and we understand why. because for russia to lose this campaign to ukraine, i would say actually means losing the war. >> richard, what else did the ukrainian president have to say? >> reporter: so i thought his assessment of the counteroffensive was quite sober. generally when you interview a president at war just after they've launched a counteroffensive, you would expect the mood to be very upbeat, but he was saying, well, generally it's going okay. it's going not bad. when we spoke to him,how diffic how the russian troops are dug

in. they've had a lot of time to prepare for this counteroffensive. now that ukraine is trying to attack, it is finding it quite difficult. it is slow going and he thinks that's because the russians realize if they do lose this offensive, they could lose the entire war. we also spoke quite a bit about the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. that is an issue that doesn't get as much attention outside of ukraine, and the president certainly believed that it should. this is a nuclear power plant currently controlled by occupying russians forces. the iaea monitors it and the head of the iaea is visiting it today. zelenskyy said in this interview he believes russia wants to blow this facility up. he pointed to what just happened with the dam not far away from this nuclear power plant. he was highlighting this as a

potential vulnerability for the entire world, something that could evoke memories of chernobyl. those two issues of major concern. i also asked him about the domestic political situation. does it feel like he is fighting this war, trying to liberate his country from invading russian forces on a political timeline set in washington? he said that, yes, that is part of the equation, that it is an undeniable factor. this country is so dependent on western support, on u.s. support, that they have to look at what is being said, particularly what is being said at the moment by leading republican presidential candidates from president trump and ron desantis, both of whom have expressed doubts about the level of support for ukraine that is currently being given by the biden administration. >> richard engel live in kyiv, thank you very much.

we'll be seeing much more of your interview throughout the day on msnbc and of course on nbc news. thank you. still ahead, the federal reserve is holding off on another rate hike for now. andrew ross sorkin joins us next for this latest decision and what it means on the fight against inflation. what it means on the fight against inflation. i'm a bear. i'm coming out of hibernation, and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate. mamá, growing up... you were so good to me. you worked hard to save for my future. so now... i want to thank you. i started investing with vanguard to help take care of you, like you took care of me. te quiero, mamá. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor

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. live shot of seattle for you. stocks are mixed this morning after the federal reserve paused its rate hiking campaign for the first time in more than a year. the federal reserve announced yesterday it was keeping its key interest rate at about 5%. fed chair jerome powell emphasized that the pause is a continuation of the fed's mission to get inflation down to 2%. let's bring in andrew ross

sorkin. the mission is to bring inflation down to 2%? >> he's got a lot to go. right now we're effectively at fourish still. we're on a different path. i don't think the path is directly to 2 at this point. i think it's can he get to 3. if he can get to 3, he has more time to do stuff. right now he still has a lot to do. he said he was going to pause, but i think underneath his words for a sense that we're going to keep hiking. it's a little bit like you ever take antibiotics, you get a dose, you get ten pills or whatever it is, but sometimes you start to feel pretty good maybe after you're five in. then sometimes people stop taking them. i think he's in the place of saying i don't want to mess this up, we're going to have to keep taking the medicine a little bit

longer, because i don't want it to go the other direction. >> how high could they go then? >> i think it's possible you could end up at 5.5, 6, 7. you could keep going. it's been shocking how resilient the economy has been, shocking how much employment has -- look at where we are in terms of employment. it's fabulous. president biden should be championing this. if chairman powell continues, you've got to tell where we are six months from now, eight months from now as we gets closer. >> it's true. >> you're talking about going up a quarter of a point. >> a quarter of a point, so by the end of the year you're at least at 5.5%. i don't know how many more pills are in the jar. >> jonathan lemire, how is the white house handling this as

long as the antibiotics keep working on the economy? >> so far they've obviously been touting the job growth since the president took office. they're encouraged by the pause yet, but they, like everyone else, anticipate it's temporary. they're watching carefully, because they know the economy will be if not the biggest, certainly a defining issue in the election next year. no matter what else is happening, there will be some voters who will simply vote on their pocketbook. we're going to hear from the president later today. he's going to be commending some private sector businesses for avoiding junk fees. we know he talked about this in the state of the union. it's been a political win for them so far. tell us a little bit more about how the private sector is responding. >> you're actually starting to see the private sector moving on this. they know if they don't move,

the government is going to. the government is already moving that way. we talk about taylor swift tickets, livenation, ticketmaster, all that. it's going to hit cable bills. it's going to hit your banks. i think we're going to start to see a little bit more truth in advertising, which is effectively what the problem has been for so long. there's an economic question, which is if there is truth in advertising, whether that ultimately brings prices down because customers say, actually this is too expensive for me. or whether in this sort of yolo economy -- >> is this a yolo economy? >> in the travel space, it is. today, oddly enough, it's going to be the biggest travel day

since the pandemic. >> summer has begun. >> summer has begun. juneteenth, that celebration turns into a three-day weekend. there's a lot of travel happening. >> how is the housing market? >> housing market has been remarkably stable. >> are you surprised? >> i am, but the truth is we don't have enough housing in america. that's the constraining piece of it. as interest rates have gone up, what's happening is nobody wants to sell their house right now, so they're holding onto it. that means people are renting. rental prices have gone up. >> oh my god. it's always do you get a house when interest rates are high? >> now things are flipping around. you probably prefer to rent than buy. >> good time to rent. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you. you didn't mention my shoes. >> tell the audience.

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marine veteran who placed jordan neely in a fatal chokehold on the subway. nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk has more. >> reporter: a manhattan grand jury has indicted daniel penny, marine veteran who yolk choke add homeless man to death on a new york subway. the 24-year-old is facing a charge of second degree manslaughter. in video released sunday by his legal team, penny says he was defending himself and others on a subway last month when he put 30-year-old jordan neely in a chokehold because he says he was acting aggressively. neely had a history of mental illness. >> i knew i had to act and i acted in a way that would protect the other passengers, protect myself, and protect mr. neely. >> reporter: penny said neely had been making threats and harassing passengers on the train before the altercation. >> the three main threats he repeated over and over was i'm going to kill you. i'm prepared to go to jail for life and i'm willing to die. >> reporter: the marine veteran says he was only trying to

restrain neely, not kill him. >> reporter: i used this hold to restrain him, and i did this by leaving my hand on top of his head to control his body. you could see in the video there's a clear rise and fall of his chest indicating that he was still breathing. >> reporter: but when first responders arrived neely was unconscious. he was later pronounced dead at a hospital from what the medical examiner ruled compression of the neck. at the time penny was only questioned by police and released. leading to widespread protests across the city until his arrest nearly two weeks later. in a new statement lawyers for the neely family say penny's indictment is the right result for the wrong he committed adding any reasonable person knows choking someone for that long will kill them and that daniel penny did not have the right to be the judge, jury, and executioner. attorneys for penny say they are confident a jury will find that his actions on that train were fully justified. as the controversial chokehold case now heads towards trial.

>> so reverend al, you were at jordan's funeral. >> i did the eulogy. what do you make of this case and race's role in it? >> i think the case even on its face is very troubling because are we now going to say that a private citizen, no law enforcement, no calls to law enforcement, can get up on a subway or anywhere else and put somebody in a chokehold and kill them because they perceived in their own mind something that no one else said that they saw and that was a threat. you have to remember he came from behind neely and put him in a chokehold, which you could see from the tape. two other people holding him down. neely was unarmed. there was no physical fight back, and he held him until he was limp. so what is the point there for he to be able to walk is really giving license for anybody to say, oh, i felt threatened and

just grab somebody. and then to add to it race, the question becomes would he have perceived anyone else as this kind of threat. the other issue is mental health issues, by the family's own admission neely had mental health issues that we need to deal with people in the streets, because neely was having a meltdown on the train. he was not threatening anyone. >> disregulated. >> he was saying he was ready to die. he was ready to go to jail. so you got to deal with the mental health issue. but penny did not know his mental health background. he didn't know anything about his background, and i think that it's a solid case, and i think that when the d.a. brought the charges, now you have a grand jury of manhattan citizens indicting, i think that he has a hard hill to climb in defending himself. >> all right. we'll be right back with a look at the morning papers.

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angeles. it's still time to get up, everybody, but a little gray out today. hopefully the sun will come around. time now for a look at the morning papers. in texas, the "abilene reporter-news," the measure is part of a school safety push by the texas legislature in response to last year's uvalde mass shooting. in wisconsin, the news republic highlights the growing lack of child care access across the state. 54% of people in wisconsin live in a child care desert, an area that contains no child care provides or so few that there are three times as many children as there are licensed child care professionals. and finally, the republic herald reports that the state of pennsylvania will import 2,000

tons of lightweight glass to help rebuild that collapsed section of i-95 caused by a tanker truck fire. crews will work around the clock using the recycled glass to fill in the damaged overpass in order to avoid supply chain delays for other materials, and this is just as summer travel is beginning terrible timing. that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. narrator: it's called, “shared leadership.” driven by each community

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