glioblastoma. >> anne thompson, thank you so much. to end on a hopeful note tonight. >> yes. >> or today. thank you. and that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." remember, follow the show online on facebook and on twitter @mitchellreports. "chris jansing reports" starts right now. good day. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters p new york city. could it all have been avoided? new reporting that donald trump had plenty of chances to keep him from becoming the first ex-president to face federal criminal charges. so why didn't he take them? plus, unseasonably nasty summer storms all across the south triggering floods and sending hailstones the size of baseballs crashing into homes and cars. nearly 100,000 people are without power and the worst may be yet to come.

and subway choking victim jordan neely's family calling the indictment of daniel penny, quote, the right result for the wrong he committed. what nbc news has learned about the charge he'll be facing coming up. but we'll start with new reporting that former president donald trump had multiple opportunities to resolve the standoff over classified documents amicably but opted out every time. according to the "washington post" trump time and time again rejected the advice of lawyers and advisers who urged him to cooperate and repeatedly refused to give documents back, even when some of his longest-serving advisers warned of peril and some flew to mar-a-lago to beg him to return them. other advisers told the "post" that the fact that the fbi and national archives wanted the documents so badly made trump even less inclined to give them back. now the former president's lifelong penchant for digging in and doubling down isn't just putting hmm at legal risk, it's

drawing republicans into an all-out war with the american judicial system, with his allies blaming the doj for trump's predicament instead of his own actions. ryan riley is nbc news justice reporter. barbara mcquaid is a former u.s. attorney, university of michigan law professor and msnbc legal analyst. and brendan buck is a former aide to republican house speakers jon ryan -- paul ryan and john boehner. he's also an msnbc political analyst. it's good to see all of you. barbara, we know the national archives and doj spent more than a year trying to recover these documents. the "times" reports that for all the lawyers arguing to give them back there were some others who counseled what they call a more pugilistic approach. is there any legal grounding for that advice that you can think of? let's just fight them. >> well, i think -- no, there's not a legal grounding for that. it's really difficult to get into the head of donald trump.

i remember sometimes when we were trying to resolve cases with people who engaged in horrifically violent crimes or terrorism charges. you just could not get your head in their head to understand and see the world the way they do. i can't imagine why they would do this. donald trump has been insistent that these documents belong to him, that he can do what he wants. and i think it is all part of this illusion that he is the state and that he gets to decide what he gets to do and that the laws don't apply to him. but lawyers certainly understand that that's just not true. and i have no doubt that the justice department would have been happy to go quietly just getting these documents back. having them out there in the wild risks our national security, and they had a responsibility to get them back. nobody wants to take on this fight with donald trump. nobody wants to be targeted in the news, have their families targeted by the former president. what they wanted was to do their jobs. and i think they could have resolved this quietly if donald trump had been willing to do so. but he wasn't. they finally had to use a search warrant to get them back pb. >> so if the prosecution can prove, barbara, that donald trump ignored his own attorneys

who were saying to him get these documents, give them back, how does that play into the case against him? >> i think it probably does not come into play. typically attorney advice is not relevant to a trial. sometimes people will use what's called the advice of counsel defense if their lawyer counsels them to act a certain way that turns out in retrospect to be against the law and they rely in good faith on that. here we have just the opposite, which is donald trump being told one thing by his lawyers and then doing the opposite. ordinarily that is protected by the attorney-client privilege. of course we do have the application of the crime fraud exception that has been found by judge beryl howell in the district of columbia that allowed evan corcoran to testify about the things donald trump said to him about let's just say there are no more documents and falsely trying to certify to the justice department that all the documents had been returned when they had not. so that does come in as donald trump's mindset and his intent to deceive the justice

department. >> so ryan, the atlantic had a really interesting article arguing that once of the challenges trump is going to face once he's in court is this. "for all that trump loves to file lawsuits against those he claims have wronged him, the courtroom represents a space perhaps uniquely hostile to trumpian falsehoods. lawyers can't lie before a judge or make assertions with no grounding in law or fact. they have to set out the reasoning behind their claims instead of just insisting that something is correct because they say so." and one of those claims that we've heard from both trump and his lawyers is doj is corrupt. right? easy to say. but proof is another thing altogether. just the fact that a.g. garland spoke during this hour yesterday i think shows some awareness of they know they're under attack. but are you hearing anything about internal discussions or concern within the doj that there needs to be a more aggressive pushback? >> you know, i'm going to make a bold prediction here. donald trump has floated out this idea that oh, the fbi

planted these documents. you're never going to see that show up in a court document because no lawyer who wants to keep their bar license would put their name on something like that. there's going to be this distinction between what donald trump is saying publicly and what he's saying in court. and i think the justice department is going to respond through the court process. and that's the indication that we saw from merrick garland yesterday. when you give them an opportunity to respond to some of these things, and we saw some of this play out last year after some of the litigation after the mar-a-lago raid where doj wasn't coming out and making these proclamations or getting things out, squirrelling it away on background to reporters or trying to get it out there. they were speaking directly through their court filings. and when i think donald trump gives them an opportunity to do so, if they make some sort of claim in court, they will respond in court. and you know, if they get a softball over the plate they're going to knock it out of the park because they have so much evidence in this case, just an overwhelming amount of evidence of wrongdoing by donald trump here. actually, i just came over from the federal courthouse where a

pretrial hearing for this defendant named alan hafsteadier. he's a donald trump supporter, a former actually police chief in california who's representing himself in his january 6th case. and he's going into all of these conspiracy theories. every one you could imagine about january 6th, about the fbi, this is all a setup. he basically thinks he's in a version of the truman show, it seems like. anding none of that was going to work. right? he got all of this rejected and the judge told him, look, you can't make these entrapment arguments, you can't these make these afrgments because there's no evidence. i think that's what donald trump is going to run into, there's no evidence for any of these claims he's making. and you can't just make claims with no evidence in court. there are rules in court. there are things you have to follow. so i think that is going to be a tough area for him to be in and you're going to see this huge difference between what donald trump is saying publicly and what he's saying on truth social and what donald trump's lawyers are actually saying in a court of law. >> so before we jump ahead to the possibility trial, let me ask you this, barbara. do you think that there are any circumstances under which there

could be a deal? donald trump has indicated, his lawyers have indicated at least that some of the reporting that he's not interested in making a deal. but you know, when things get closer, when reality starts to hit more, sometimes people do things you think they might not otherwise. but would prosecutors be inclined to talk deal? >> i think prosecutors are always willing to talk a deal because you know, they have valuable things they're willing to give up. maximizing a prison sentence is probably less important to them than accountability and showing that they are consistent when they prosecute these cases so that they can deter other people from engaging in similar conduct. but i just can't imagine donald trump pleading guilty because to do so in federal court you have to actually show up in person, go under oath, and tell the judge in your own words what you did that makes you believe you are guilty. i just can't imagine donald trump ever being able to do that, to admit in public that what he did was illegal and

wrong and all of the factual basis that would be required for entry of a guilty plea because you know, i'm sure he could tell the public i just did what i had to do to make a deal to get out from under it but that doesn't fly in federal court. you have to testify under oath about what you did. and there's a transcript of that that can be used publicly to refute him. i just can't imagine he would ever be able to muster up the ability to say those things about himself. >> so brendan, let's talk about how the legal becomes political. the associated press puts it this way. "the mounting legal jeopardy trump finds himself in has quickly become a political rallying cry for republicans, many of whom acknowledged they had not fully read the 49-page federal indictment but are rushing to stand by the indicted former president, adopting his grievances against the federal justice system as their own." do you think any of these folks are stepping back and worrying about what happens to the country if you delegitimize the u.s. legal system, the justice system that this country was

founded on? >> i sure hope so. and i think that's the tension some of them like a nikki haley or tim scott are facing. ryan hit on some really important points. there are so many republican voters for whom it is a flat reality that doj and fbi are part of the deep state out to get donald trump and his allies and they firmly believe that. so it's really hard to hold somebody accountable when the talking points are so easy for his allies to believe. now, look, if you are in this race, you believe that you are a better person to represent the republican party, be president, theoretically you should believe that going after donald trump and making the case against him is part of that exercise. but seems like so many of them are worried about upsetting those very people, people who are operating in reality that has no basis in fact. you've got to look at yourself and say why am i in this race? what am i doing here?

surely there are principles about this country that you care about that you think you should be president of the united states. it should be obvious i think. but unfortunately the political reality, we've seen it in poll after poll after poll, is that people dismiss this. another reason it's hard to hold donald trump accountable is voters kind of understand that donald trump is reckless. they understand that he's not a serious person. and so they're okay with that for all the other reasons that they like him. it's not easy to hold him accountable politically. and it's certainly not going to happen if none of these people are willing to step up and do it. i'm hoping that the incremental attacks you've seen on him show that people realize that there's a lot more at stake here with the rhetoric that donald trump is talking about. >> and i think meantime, brendan, there is a question still whether his legal problems, and if they continue to mount, will provide an opening for someone else because the latest poll yesterday had him up 30 points on desantis. the newest person running against him is miami's mayor, francis suarez. and he was asked this morning

about donald trump's situation. here's what he said. >> did the president do anything wrong in the way he handled classified information? >> well, i don't know all the details about how he handled classified information. i do know that a former president -- >> you read the indictment, didn't you? did you read the indictment? >> of course. but -- >> what did it say to you? >> of course i read the indictment. >> i'm just trying to get a simple answer to that question. i let you say why you're running for president. answer that question. >> yeah, look, it's not what i would have done. i would have turned over the documents. but if i were the former vice president and the current president i wouldn't have stored classified documents in my garage either. >> there seems to be a lot of people, brendan, who are running for president who are trying to walk the line. they don't want to outright criticize him but say something like i would have done things differently. is that a way to break through? >> yeah, this is the challenge. this is a person who wants to

announce they're running for president. all you end up getting asked about is donald trump. and this is the challenge for all of them. how do you get attention? how do you break through? how do you differentiate yourself? i think my argument is here's the really big opportunity. this is one of the biggest things that's going to happen over the next year. obviously the president -- should be obvious. acted improperly. obviously, everyone is entitled to their day in court. but it's not hard to say from what i've seen the president acted recklessly, he endangered national security and he needs to answer for it. those are very simple things that you can say to try to demonstrate and at least make some progress undermining all of the years that have been -- the groundwork that has been laid for donald trump and is letting him get off scot-free. look, this is -- we've got a lot of inertia going on. donald trump is moving towards the nomination, and that is not going to stop unless someone interjects and does something about it. i can't imagine a bigger opportunity than this one to do that.

>> brendan buck, ryan riley, thank you both so much. barbara, don't go away. you're going to be back with us a little later on in the show. well, enormous hail has been raining down in texas while tornadoes destroyed homes from alabama to georgia. we've got a live report from the wreckage. and that's next in 60 seconds. d. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

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dallas. chunks of ice so large you can hear it thudding down on the roof of this car. can we listen? there it is. well, that's one side of the coin. the other is sweltering heat already starting to set in, prompting miami and houston to activate emergency advisories. nbc's kathy park is live from warrior, alabama. sam brock is in houston for us. so kathy, in northern alabama i understand at least one person was hospitalized last night after a tornado destroyed a house she was in. what's the situation on the ground right now? >> hey, chris. good afternoon to you. yeah, these storms did turn dangerous but it's also quite destructive as well. you can probably see behind me this massive tree that fell yesterday afternoon. the homeowner was taking shelter inside his home and incredibly he said he didn't actually hear the trees falling. he said the rain was coming down that hard. and of course when he came outside this is what he saw. it was quite a shock to him. and also you're probably noticing this yellow tube.

it actually marks the gas line that's a couple inches down. the good news is it didn't rupture. so he could have had a bigger problem on his hands. but unfortunately, he did lose four trees on his property. just look how close his property is. fortunately the structure of this home all okay and that's certainly some good news. but a big cleanup ahead for rob, the homeowner here. he said he'll probably take a couple of days to remove all of this debris but the cleanup is the big headline today. and chris, i think you mentioned earlier thousands of customers, tens of thousands of customers here specifically in alabama still without power. i just spoke with alabama power and we're told that the goal is to restore power by today. but south of us in montgomery and mobile they are kind of in that danger zone once again. so they are expecting strong thunderstorms, hail, damaging wind. that is going to be a challenge as these crews continue to work

around the clock to restore power for all those customers who don't have it. >> and sam, texas's major energy supplier added new services to help keep up with demand. how is the state prepping for extreme heat? how hot are you right now? >> chris, good afternoon. i'm wearing the lightest possible fabric that i could find in my wardrobe. it's 95 degrees in houston. the highs for today are 100. the heat index for the region, chris, could easily push 110. so that includes humidity in that calculation. as far as what's going on with ercot, ercot is the independent operator of the electrical grid here. they have a weather watch under way. it started june 15th, today. it goes through the 21st. and i'm told they could be seeing triple-digit temperatures for the next ten days. the expectation is possibly record usage on the system. that might sound scary. the good news, though, last year 11 times the state broke its usage record, most notably in july of 2022. 80,000 megawatts.

and things were fine. the grid reliability right now while it has come under question previously during snowstorms in 2021 and 2011 has never had widespread disruptions because of heat. there is also a heat emergency plan that has been deployed by the city of houston. i spoke with sylvester turner the mayor to talk a little about the timing of this. in mid june, not july or august, but right now, what his chief concerns are, here's what he told me. >> the heat index is over 100. that's when you have to start to worry. and we're getting there soon. it seems like this june quicker than previous years. drink plenty of water. make sure you don't get dehydrated. if you can avoid being out in the sun for too long, that's important. seniors, tell them to turn on their ac. >> chris, the seniors such a key component here. there is concern that many of them on fixed incomes are

worried about obviously paying for food and medicine and they might skimp on air-conditioning. he said please do not do that. keep your air-conditioners on. and the city of houston and also one of the energy companies here set aside pots of money to help provide them with subsidies to get through this period that is so dangerous right now. he just wants to make sure that messaging is out. and one more point. obviously the state of texas, there's a lot of people who have moved down here. the population increased according to the u.s. census by about a half million people last year. 9 million between 2000 and 2022. so you can understand why there would be more strains on resources on the electrical grid. there's just so many more people down here. and now we're seeing record temperatures in the middle of june, chris. >> yeah. just let's hope it's not a deadly combination there. sam brock, kathy park, thanks to both of you. much appreciated. meanwhile, those canadian wildfires are once again creating a smoky haze over parts of the u.s. minnesota, wisconsin currently under air quality alerts in some areas. the thick smoke first hit northern minnesota wednesday

morning. by the afternoon it had spilled into minneapolis. today the smoke is expected to hit some of the dakotas and possibly iowa too. so stay inside around there. a deadly chokehold caught on tape. and now a grand jury indictment. we'll dive into the charges former marine daniel penny now faces in the death of jordan neely. plus, one of the tennessee three back on the ballot today. will voters re-elect him after his expulsion reignited the gun control debate? you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. reports" only on msnbc cut! another health insurance commercial, another aqua-aerobics scene. yup. most health insurance companies see us all the same: smiley seniors golfing, hiking... don't forget antiquing. that's why i chose humana. they see me, not a stereotypical senior. i'm pre-diabetic, so i talked one-on-one with a humana health educator who really helped me. now i'm taking free cooking and meditation classes. not aqua-aerobics? better care begins with listening. humana. a more human way to healthcare.

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marine veteran daniel penny has now been indicted by a new york city grand jury in the subway chokehold death of jordan neely. two sources tell nbc news the charge is second-degree manslaughter. if convicted he faces up to 15 years in prison. this comes just days after penny defended himself in a video released by his attorneys, saying he wasn't just afraid for

himself but for others on the train. >> i knew i had to act. and i acted in a way that would protect the other passengers, protect myself, and protect mr. neely. the three main threats that he repeated over and over was "i'm going to kill you," "i'm prepared to go to jail for life," and "i'm willing to die." i used this hold to restrain him, and i did this by leaving my hand on top of his head to control his body. you can see in the video there's a clear rise and fall of his chest, indicating that he was still breathing. >> joining me now, barbara mcquade, a former u.s. attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. also with me, nbc's stephanie gosk who is following this story for us. stephanie, do we really know what's in this indictment? because you and i were having a question before this. there's an awful lot we don't know about this case. >> yeah. there's an awful lot we don't know. and starting with that indictment, right? it's still under seal and it might be released at the arraignment, which is scheduled for june 28th. but we know that he was charged with second-degree manslaughter in this case.

and you know you have a response from jordan neely's family saying that this in their words is the right result for the wrong he, meaning daniel penny, committed. but there you have it. very forcefully from his own mouth. daniel penny saying that this was a way to protect himself, that people in that train feared for their lives and that's what he was trying to do, that he meant to restrain him and in his words not kill him. >> so barbara, how tricky are self-defense claims? what do you need to show or, you know, if you feel like you're protecting others in addition to yourself. >> yeah, so defense of others is a valid defense even if he says he was not fearful for himself. the law is essentially the case. and in new york the law of self-defense or defense of others requires a reasonable fear of loss of life or serious bodily injury. and so based on the things he said, that he was going to kill people, that he was willing to die for it, could amount to

that. but the law is also designed to avoid vigilante justice. so when an ordinary citizen engages in this kind of behavior, a chokehold, which police officers are prohibited from doing, we see the dangers that can arise. so certainly somebody has the ability to intervene there. but the question for a jury will be whether his conduct was reasonable or he crossed the line as to what was reasonable. perhaps restraining him but doing so in a chokehold is something that put his life in danger and may have crossed the line of what a jury believes to be reasonable. >> would you imagine, barbara, that his military training would come into play? >> it could. i think that that would be part of both the prosecution and the defense, about the dangers of chokeholds. one of the things that police officers, and i imagine military personnel are trained in is the danger of a chokehold because you cut off the air passage and so people are -- there's a risk of death there. he may use it as part of his

defense that he thought he knew what he was doing and therefore acting reasonably. but reasonableness is an objective standard, what a jury thinks is reasonable, not what he thinks is reasonable. and the prosecution may want to use it to say he was trained and he knew better and therefore acting unreasonably. >> we know some things, stephanie, about jordan neely. we know he was known to new york city officials, that he was someone considered to be at high risk, a homeless person, someone who is known to have mental health issues. >> arrested a number of times in incidents that were violent. >> so we've all seen the video. most people have seen it multiple times. but that is one part of this. right? do we know if there are, for example, other videotapes? do we know how many people were on that train? because we haven't heard from those folks. >> and this is a really important point. there was one witness who spoke about this and said he was acting in a threatening manner. and you have obviously daniel penny as well. but you have just that one clip and we don't know how long the chokehold lasted because it starts right in the middle of

it. were there other people there? what were the impressions of the people who were on the train? all of that's going to come out over course of a trial. and it could really change the context of this incident, which a lot of people feel like they understand fully. i would submit that maybe we don't yet. >> stephanie gosk, barbara mcquade, we're going to be talking about this again i'm sure. thank you both so much. we appreciate it. the white house wants to take the surprise out of service fees. could a strategy of taking direct aim at voters' bottom line help biden in 2024? you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. msnbc

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as if prices aren't high enough, sticker shock often goes one step further when you think you've found a price for a concert ticket or hotel room, only to check it out online and then find there are junk fees that pop up, adding 10, 20, even 50 bucks or more to the original price. so take a hotel room. "consumer reports" says hotel-related junk fees cost travelers roughly $3 billion a year. charged, for example, as a destination fee or a resort fee which can add up to 6 1/2% to the charges. okay. how about broadway? a $501 resale ticket to "funny girl," we just checked this out this morning, will cost you another $96.44 in fees. but now some changes coming to at least take the surprise out

of those painful junk fees. president biden set to make an announcement just a few minutes from now. i want to bring in nbc's mistake moomoily and wlikt white house sxoernt political contributor eugene daniels. good to see you both. what's happening this hour? what's the president going to announce? >> chris, you just laid out so well an experience we all can relate to, thinking you're getting a great deal on a ticket only to find just before check-out that it costs 20%, 30% higher than you originally thought. the president in his state of the union address described that experience, talked about what he called junk fees and said the american people are tired of feeling like as he put it suckers. what's so interesting about what the president's doing today is he's not introducing or signing a law, he's not announcing an executive order. this is simply about him using that bully pulpit, that stage that he's had as president of the united states to build pressure from consumers really onto these private companies to be more transparent about what their prices are all about. so the president's going to be joined by some major companies

like live nation, a popular concert promoter, airbnb as well as seat geek, another tool many people use to buy tickets online who have voluntarily taken actions to provide what they call an all in one ticket price much earlier in the process. now, why is that had important? it's not that they're eliminating these so-called fees. they're just being more transparent about it. but consumer advocates say that when you are only really seeing the full price of something at the last possible step just before check-out it really reduces an ability for people who have maybe be multiple options to buy tickets to do sort of comparison shopping to get the best deal. so they say that this is an important step on the part of the president. and one group that supports the president politically is saying that on behalf of all american swifties they're thanking the president for what he's doing. so it really gives you a sense of politically what the appeal the white house sees in this kind of action is. >> he can't get you a ticket. but if you find one you'll know how much it cost is the bottom line there. eugene, this does seem to be part of kind of a larger

administration push. critics within the party have been saying for a while to joe biden's folks, look, you need to get out there more, you need to let folks know more clearly what you're doing that impacts their everyday lives. i think we kind of saw something similar, right? was it just a week ago they did the push for infrastructure projects all over the country. how key is this to his 2024 at least early, early strategy? >> and also talking about prescription drug prices, talking about insulin a lot. right? because there are only so many things that this administration can do as we move forward with the congress that we have. so what they can do at this point is just tell people, hey, we are fighting for you, that's at the root, at the core of the re-election and also the rest of this -- the next two years for the administration. any of the campaigning or senior aides in the white house that you talk to, they say this is at the core of who joe biden is, that he wants the american people to understand he has their back.

you hear that a lot. he says that a lot. so nibbling at the margins. we weren't having a national conversation about junk fees. that wasn't something that was happening. but they saw an opportunity here to where it is frustrating for nearly every american. right? nowadays almost every american is buying or using -- or being hit with these junk fees in some way, shape or form. and so if they can go around saying we are taking on the folks that are doing this, we are talking to them, we can't sign a piece of legislation but we're doing what we can, that's good for him. that is going to be something that as the american people decide who's going to be the next president that they will be -- those junk fees, the prescription drug prices, my grandmother's insulin, those are the kinds of things people care about outside of the larger conversations that we're having in this country. they're tying their whole election around the freedom but also what can someone do for you, we are fighting for you. and i think that is something that this administration and campaign are going to continue

to make central. >> so i want to show people two polls, eugene. one tracks president biden's approval rating. the other tracks people's opinions of whether the country is on the right track. and if you take a look, these polls have barely moved over the course of the year. what does the white house think that is? and are they considering -- obviously they think that talking to people's pocketbooks is a good idea. but is there a different strategy they're considering? >> at this point on the right track/wrong track question what you see in those polls is that people think those for different reasons. if the country's on the quote unquote wrong track, democrats may think that because of issues they care about aren't being pushed through. republicans think that because it's a democratic administration. so they don't feel that they can do a ton there. but on his overall approval rating they say that that is -- there are sometimes historic lows, all they can do is go around and say what joe biden

has done for them and what he's going to continue to do and more importantly that it is something that as he is moving forward, as he's talking to people, going out there, that they will have a chance to fix that. but they will also say they haven't been good at selling the administration, they haven't been good from the very beginning talking about what they're doing. and also when it's not in line with how americans are feeling you can say what you want about jobs, that they've brought back how they feel about the economy and inflation. if the american people aren't feeling that, that's a disconnect. and that's something that is really hard to get over. and they know that. they've admitted that much. but they have to be more honest with the american people. and they're trying around the edges to say we understand you're not feeling this, instead of painting kind of a rosy picture of what the economy's doing and working for them. >> eugene daniels, mike memoli, thank you guys. appreciate it. and coming up, southern baptists cutting ties with two churches over women pastors. we'll speak to a woman pastor for her views. and then to pittsburgh where the

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inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. we're following a major decision this week by the southern baptist convention after voting members officially and overwhelmingly voted to oust churches with female pastors at their annual gathering. in a statement afterwards the convention noted that the two

churches at the heart of this, saddleback, their second largest congregation in the country, and fern creek baptist church, which has had a female pastor for three decades, were, quote, not in friendly cooperation with the sbc. i want to bring in reverend christie mcmillan goodwin of the front royal baptist church in virginia. that church left the sbc 30 years ago but formally voted to leave this year after being placed on a list of churches led by female pastors. i guess then you, reverend, are one of the churches that are not in friendly cooperation. but let me ask you about what the heart of the argument seems to be, which is that the sbc is framing this as a fight for biblical integrity. what do you say to that? >> i think that the southern baptist convention is picking and choosing what scripture passages they are using. there are many examples of women in scripture. for instance, jesus at the tomb he first appeared to women and

called them to go out and preach and teach about his resurrection. i feel that the southern baptist convention is picking and choosing what passages they want to follow. this is a fight that targets women and seeks to put women in their place. >> the vote wasn't even close. 88% voted to uphold saddleback's ouster. 92% for fern creek. if the position is we have a right to set standards for our own membership, is that fair? >> well, the truth is baptist churches have always had the opportunity to choose whoever they wanted to to be pastors. the nominations do not control what local parishes do. so it is the right of every church to call whoever they want, male or female, to be their pastors. >> "usa today" shared a sentiment that struck me by meredith stone. she's the head of baptist women in ministry.

and she said, "the emotional, spirit and physical safety of women is further threatened when they are not only de val yued but used in a political denominational battle. how much of this do you think is politics and what do you think is means to women who are members of this church who have wanted and have served the church in various roles as pastor, not always what i think a lot of people consider to be the person who runs the service and stands up necessarily in front of the congregation but also people who lead the youth ministry, who lead the music ministry. what does it say to them? >> i have heartbroken by this decision because there are women and girls at southern baptist churches that have felt called and will continue to feel called by god to serve. but there are other nominations and nominational entities that will support women and their calling to be pastors. i was raised in a southern baptist church that always had

women on staff, so that there are places where women can choose and churches that will support them in their calling. >> do you think there are women who have loved this church and have been in this church for a very long time who will leave now? >> in my church or in the southern baptist church? >> in the sbc generally. >> i do think so. the southern baptist convention has been on the decline in regards to membership. and i think that decline will continue because women and churches will make the decision to leave the denomination. which is really heartbreaking. it's like leaving your family. >> reverend christy mcmillin-goodwin. we appreciate you taking the time. meantime, nine women have filed a new sexual assault lawsuit against bill cosby in nevada only weeks after the state passed a law eliminating the statute of limitations for civil cases. cosby has been publicly accused by more than 60 women from groping to sexual assault to rape accusations. but he does not stand convicted

of any crimes in connection with past allegations against him. he was back in 2018 for aggravated indecent assault against andrea constance, you may recall. he did spend time in prison but a judge later overturned that conviction. cosby has consistently denied all the sexual assault allegations against him. although he has admitted providing drugs to women. nbc news daily anchor kate snow has an exclusive interview with some of the women who filed this new lawsuit in nevada. you've really been on top of this case from the very beginning. what are these women telling you? >> chris, good to see you. so these women are basically optimistic. they feel very lucky that they are able now to go forward with this suit in nevada. they say they feel like is that it might end up helping other women. it might end up helping other survivors of sexual assault. all nine of them say that cosby drugged or attempted to drug them before sexually assaulting them, in either reno or las

vegas. several women alleging that cosby assaulted them in his suite at a vegas hotel. they filed this suit under a brand new nevada statute, and here's the interesting part. four of the women i spoke with spent months lobbying and testifying in nevada for this new law. it allows any adult alleging sexual assault to file a civil suit no matter how long ago that incident happened. two weeks ago, one of the plaintiffs, lisa lublin was there when nevada's governor signed this into law. i asked the women why they're filing suit. why are you filing suit? >> to take back my power. >> it's time for him to be responsible for his actions. >> culpability, justice. >> what these laws changing means that perpetrators can no longer hide behind an arbitrary time limit called the statute of limitations that victims, plaintiffs will be able to present our evidence, our

testimonies, and our witnesses in a court of law no matter how much time has passed. >> as you mentioned in 2018, bill cosby was convicted of indecent assault. three years later, pennsylvania overturned the conviction, found that cosby was denied protection against self-incrimination. cosby has always denied allegations of sexual abuse and i want to read you, cosby spokesperson, andrew wyatt accused the women being motivated by addiction to media attention and greed, and why it also said from this day forward, we will not continue to allow these women to parade various accounts mr. cosby without vetting them in the court of public opinion and inside of the courtroom. the women are seeking a jury trial in part they say to help other survivors in the future. their suit does seek compensatory and punitive damages. andrew wyatt, cosby's spokesperson said the recent changes to the state's statute makes all americans ask the

question, who's funding these alleged accusers and lawmakers. the attorneys for the plaintiffs responded calling this an absurd baseless attack, suggesting that every lawmaker in nevada is being funded by some unknown boogyman is laughable. bill cosby does face other lawsuits, chris. he faces one in new york, which is five women, including lili bernard, also suing in new jersey, separately a woman in california has sued bill cosby. no criminal convictions but he has been found civilly liable for molesting that 16-year-old girl in 1975. >> it's quite extraordinary that these women were part of this movement to get this law passed. we talk a lot about what doesn't work in government, but people standing up, asking for something, lobbying for it, sometimes does succeed. >> yeah, they did succeed in getting the law passed. that's for sure. >> kate snow, thank you very much. and for more, see kate's full

report today on nbc news now. now to a disturbing case coming out of harvard. yesterday, federal officials arrested seven people including the former manager of its medical school's morgue for allegedly stealing and then selling human body parts on the black market. prosecutors say not only did they deal in cadaver parts for years, including heads, brains, skin and bones that had been donated for research, they also allowed some buyers to come to the morgue to choose what parts they wanted. and the details just get more gruesome from there. one u.s. attorney said some crimes defy understanding, while a statement from the medical school called the allegations an abhorrent betrayal. coming up, a major blow to a major city, what the closure of the downtown mall means for san francisco. is it a sign of what's to come elsewhere? you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. you're wg reports" only on mbcsn (vo) sadie's done paying for wireless bundles with things she doesn't need. so she switched to verizon.

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in yet the latest, one of the most dramatic symbols of the struggles facing san francisco now, the operator of its long time upscale mall in the heart of downtown is pulling out. nbc's miguel almaguer has more. >> reporter: once a crown jewel for retail shopping, the westfield san francisco center is pulling the plug on the named downtown mall, the stunning decision to walk away comes as the city struggles with homelessness and open air drug market, and the perception of crime. in a statement, westfield says given the challenging operator conditions in downtown san francisco, which have led to declines in sales, occupancy, and foot traffic, we have made the difficult decision to transfer management. >> i don't come to san francisco anymore. let's put it that way. it's scary. >> as other cities like chicago and portland deal with major retail closures, the mall's demise in san francisco comes just weeks after nordstrom

announced its exit from the city center, with nearly half of the stores set to soon be vacant, the future of those still operating is unclear as the nearby gap shutters and old navy plans to close. westfield says sales in san francisco have dropped 35% since 2019, and malls in neighbors increased 66%. remote work and a decline in tourism have changed the dynamic here. and while statistics show robberies have increased so far this year, other serious crimes are flat or down. though recent crime numbers here are mixed, the image of san francisco has changed. especially as the city deals with a lack of police officers. >> right now san francisco is dealing with a level of drug addiction and drug-driven retail theft and problems with street conditions, and we've got to get our arms around that. >> reporter: the retail dec