about this. they do not want to provide ammunition for exactly what we talked about at the beginning, which is somehow this is political. this is about biden versus trump opposed to justice versus trump. they know that if biden gets out there and comments on it, it only helps former president trump. he is trying to goad him into doing it, goad the current president into engaging on it, so it is a partisan matter of left versus right, democrat versus republican, rather than being a case of what trump did, with the country's nuclear secrets left in a bathroom. whether he misled, deceived an investigation. they want it to be as little politics as possible. >> terrific stuff. we're grateful when he is here. chief white house correspondent for the new york city, peter baker, happy father's day, have a good weekend. thank you for getting up early this friday morning and all week

long. "morning joe" starts right now. are you ready? food for everyone. food for everyone. >> okay, that's great. he paid everybody. food for everybody. >> what a guy. >> he was arrested. >> what a guy. >> and released. he kept everybody's spirits up. >> by buying lunch for them. >> food for everybody. local cuban restaurant in miami. >> willie, that is so kind of him. maybe he has been misjudged after all. >> willie, what do you think? >> i think mika called this in real time and every day since, but i'll let you reveal the story. >> well, "the miami new times" revealed nobody ordered anything during his ten-minute stop, and trump didn't pay for anything. i don't think there was an offer to do so. >> yeah. >> willie, nobody ordered nothing. nobody paid for nothing. >> there was no paying. >> i know this is going to shock you, coming from donald trump, it was all a scam. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, june 16th.

along with willie, joe, and me, we have former aide to the george w. bush state -- >> oh, lemire was great. >> wants the screen time. >> let's try it again. t.j., ready? let's do lemire. >> hi, lemire. >> let's do elise jordan. she was really important and still is. now, let's do richard haass. >> president of the -- >> willie geist. see if you can get willie. >> oh. >> fabulous. >> now, do you have chopper 4? >> no, i don't have that. >> chuck rosenberg joins us. as well as "the washington post"'s editor, eugene robinson. >> of course -- >> he's back again. >> jonathan lemire. >> mika was able to call it in real time, that trump was going too pay for absolutely nothing. >> no. >> i think decades of experience

told mika there was going to be no free food for everyone, as "the miami times" reported yesterday. >> i know. jonathan, i know your reporting and your hearing from people close to trump, like a lot of us are, growing concern about all these indictments. as you said yesterday, actually silence around new jersey. there's a little bit of rumbling there, like, oh, he's not really going to do that, but from the trump camp, i'm in the so sure about that. >> first of all, you can imagine my absolute being stunned that donald trump wouldn't follow through and pay people there. that place is very good, though. versailles, excellent cuban food. there is real concern, and forget the check, this is something the former president and his inner circle have been worried about for a while, is, indeed, he is facing someone now in jack smith who they simply don't know. they feel like they can't intimidate. he is someone who seems immune

to what their typical playbook is, which is the smoke screen and the attacks, the assertions of bias. to this point, that hasn't worked. we see the new jersey thing, i also heard last night from a few people in the trump world saying, we're not sure how real that is, but they also can't rule it out. they didn't expect all that's happened to this point. we know that it's not just new york, which they feel fine about. they're deeply concerned about the mar-a-lago documents, and they're worried still about georgia. >> they are. >> georgia has been the one that's been the flashing light for them all along, and it's not like that's gone away, joe and mika. it's probably a few weeks down the road. >> chuck, there are a lot of times prosecutors have to really stretch to prove their cases. a lot of circumstantial evidence sometimes. it's not quite as strong as they'd like. but you look at that georgia case, they've got the tape recordings. you look at the mar-a-lago case.

they've got incredible physical evidence. they've got him saying things, again, on audio tape that close him in. they've got him saying things in speeches and on sean hannity's show that are admissions of guilt. again, the picture has so much hard evidence there, really problematic for this guy. >> well, i think that's right. you know, when you look at the mar-a-lago case, you actually have a lot to look at. we have an indictment. when you write an indictment, and i've written many of them as a federal prosecutor, joe, you make sure that you can prove every word, every sentence, every paragraph, assuming that's what the prosecutors did here. i assume they did because they're really good at their jobs. that's going to be a very tough case for mr. trump. and, as you point out, there are a bunch of different trains on a bunch of parallel tracks, in new york, georgia, and perhaps elsewhere. i would also like to underscore

something else you said. these federal prosecutors, jack smith and his team, are an enormously talented and experienced group of prosecutors. first, they're not going to be intimidated by mr. trump or anyone else. second, they are not trying their case in the public atmosphere. it is going to be in a courtroom, in a federal court in florida. third, they're really good at what they do. you know, i won a lot of cases as a prosecutor, and i was remarkably mediocre. what makes the difference is that you have the facts and the law. when you have the facts and the law, you don't have to be a gifted advocate. you just have to be competent. you have to be able to stand up in court and introduce your evidence. >> yeah. >> if you can do that and you got it, then you have a strong case. >> well, chuck rosenberg, on behalf of elise jordan and southerners all over the plains, we give you the false modesty award. boy, i'm just a poor country lawyer.

sir, you are not mediocre. i am mediocre. >> i can attest to that. >> my wife can attest to that, mediocre, i am, but you, sir, are the best and the brightest. so, you know, we don't know what's going to happen, and this is what scares trump, right? all one heard is, oh, there's so many leaks, which there wasn't. smith isn't -- no, he actually wasn't. we were all surprised by miami. trump was surprised by miami. if they were surprised by miami, they start hearing about new jersey, they don't know. it's got them worried. also, this january 6th case getting more real by the moment. again, the most damning thing for trump, along with the tapes and along with all the evidence the january 6th committee drummed up, is all the people

testifying against trump are all people donald trump hired. >> how would he hire an administration? >> right. this next reporting raises the question, though comical, of mitt romney and others in the republican party who have asked the question as to, like, why? why did he hold on to these classified documents? one week after the latest indictment of donald trump, there is new reporting that would poke holes in one of the former president's defenses. despite claiming earlier in the week he, quote, hadn't had a chance to go through all the box s he took with him to mar-a-lago, former white house aides tell "the new york times" that trump was unusually attached to those boxes and their contents. throughout his presidency -- >> read that line again. >> -- and after leaving office. >> are you saying he was unusually attached to the boxes? >>attached. >> others get unusually attached

to other human beings, but he is unusually attached to the boxes. he loved them. >> he was obsessed with them. >> uh-huh. >> staffers reportedly referred to the boxes as trump's, quote, beautiful mind material, in reference to the book and movie about nobel prize winning mathematician john nash. >> willie, i don't think they meant it as a compliment. >> yeah, no. >> there's nash's "beautiful mind "on the wall. yeah, yeah. >> anyway. >> he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, willie, as an adult. he covered the walls in the office with newspaper clippings and documents. he thought he was hired by the u.s. government to crack a russian code. >> yeah, john nash, a brilliant man, but deeply, deeply troubled, as russell crowe's portrayal showed us years ago. trump was meticulous about putting things in specific boxes

and could generally identify what was in the boxes most immediately around him. the former president also reportedly had a habit of bringing documents with him from the west wing up to the white house residence. >> what? >> even went around his staff system for tracking that material. since leaving the white house, sources tell "the times" that trump has maintained that behavior, filling up new boxes. when those close to him suggest he review it for classified material. >> why? >> joe, again, this is coming from people close to donald trump, people who witnessed this behavior. that was the running joke, i guess it was, inside the white house, that this guy is like john nash in "a beautiful mind," traveling with the boxes, taking them upstairs. as maggie haberman and "the times" team pointed out, he was warned by members of his own staff, "hey, don't take that stuff with you. that's classified. that stuff stays here." he knew not only what was at

mar-a-lago was classified, but this goes back to the time when he was president, according to the sources. >> two things that are important to donald trump, two things and only two things. not his family, not connections with people, it's money and fame. so you ask why, we'll find out why. >> yeah, money and power. and the power because it leads to money. >> right. >> elise, again, this goes back to what i was saying before. who are the people testifying? these aren't the libs. these aren't, like, you know, people, the young marxist league of southern manhattan. these are people who worked for trump, that are around trump. they're mocking trump. they're the ones testifying because they can justify to friends and family, i'm going to work for donald trump. they can't justify going to federal prison for him. they're all talking. >> this is so bizarre. just the handling of the classified documents, even from the president. you have been around highly sensitive documents. the idea that he could just take

something from the oval office to the white house, and it wouldn't be handled by, you know, the proper confidential assistant, it is so bizarre that so many holds just were let go and that he was essentially hoarding. he's a hoarder. you hear these horrible stories of hoarding of animals, and he was doing the same thing with the classified documents. >> the hoarding of nuclear secrets. >> yeah. let's go to richard haass. >> richard. >> this is funny but not funny. >> well, yeah, actually, sort of -- >> deadly serious. >> -- smirking at the bizarre behavior, but look at that. classified documents. the staff member took a picture of that and sent it to another staff member. >> that's a lot of documents. >> the magnitude of these crimes, when you think about the fact -- i've talked about what would happen if i went to a briefing as a member of the armed services committee, took a classified document back to my office.

fbi would be calling me within 15 minutes. you were around classified documents all the time. we're talking about one, two documents that people get the fbi, you know, charging them. this guy, boxes and boxes and boxes of america's -- some of america's most closely guarded secrets. >> yeah, it's hard to imagine. when the briefer came to brief you in the morning from the cia, he or she would carry the briefcase very carefully, opened up in your office. you'd be handed the documents, you'd read the documents, then you'd hand them back. they go back in the briefcase. so the idea that these things are thrown in boxes and mixed with kind of sports photographs -- >> by the way, i want you to stop again. again, for people that haven't been in government service, people that, again, haven't had experience with handling even one classified document. i talked the other day about briefings i got in the 1990s

that i still haven't told anybody about, just because -- >> that's the way it goes. >> -- i was told not to tell anybody. unless i called somebody and said, "could i ask you about this portion of north korea's nuclear program or about iran's assets in this country or that country, have you guys declassified that," not only me, but you, you working in the state department, nobody would imagine doing that. this is why this is so grotesque, what kevin mccarthy and some republicans are doing, because they would never do it. because they understand it's not just the crime, it is the scale of the crime. this is a tsunami of crimes. like, regarding a united states president and some of our most sacred, classified secrets. >> yeah, look, we all dealt with, you know, the hundreds, even thousands of classified documents in the course of a

week or month. some were in files. the most sensitive went back to the briefings who came every morning to give the president his daily brief, this being he and a dozen officials. documents get in the wrong place in a search. >> that happens. >> that's the odd document. >> and it gets returned. >> absolutely. what's bizarre about this is the sensitivity. these weren't things maybe confidential. we're talking about stuff at the top of the security food chain. really limited distribution of documents. i was thinking about this. >> by the way, one other thing, too, because i know people are thinking about it while you're talking. it's not like biden or pence, where somebody mispacked something and sent something to one of their annexes or offices or even homes by mistake, then they did a search, found it, sent it back. this is a guy that was a rummaging through boxes filled with nuclear secrets -- >> well, then going, "these are

mine." >> he knew what was in the boxes. >> weird. >> refused to return them. talk about proving intent a hundred times over. as andrew mccarthy said yesterday -- >> we have it. >> okay. >> there's no defense. yeah, let's hear it. >> talking to hewitt. this is what he says and why he says it. >> in terms of the president's defense that he declassified the documents, i'm not saying it has merit, but how does he get that into the record without appearing as a witness? >> there would have to be -- this is why i don't think he has a defense, hugh. first of all, i fi if you do that under the presidential records act, there should be a document supporting it. otherwise, he's got to have a witness that shows that he did it. i don't think he has that. also, it's irrelevant because it's not a defense to the charges. >> but, assuming he thinks it is a relevant argument and may want

to make the argument to the jury, how do they even get the assertion that he declassified them in his mind into the record without him going on the stand? go ahead. we can talk through the music. >> yeah, i don't see how he can do that. if it's the operation of his mind, he's got to testify to it. >> first of all, thank you, t.j., for putting the honky saxophone underneath that. i think, actually, that was hugh hewitt's show. but he said time and again, no defense. this is andrew mccarthy, a conservative's conservative, a great, fierce conservative legal mind who has defended donald trump a great deal. he didn't in the election rigging, but in a lot of the impeachment stuff, he was there, same with hugh hewitt, and just like so many other republicans that have supported donald trump in the past, they're saying, "he's got no defense." >> that was what was damning about the indictment. there's two parts. what is the scale of this? it's one thing to have the odd

document. this wasn't the exception, this was the rule. that's one thing. second of all, that's why the obstruction charge is important. if he'd coughed them up, we'd be in a totally -- >> we wouldn't be having this conversation. >> he passed on that. his attorneys offered. >> exactly. >> politically, that's the most important point. because voters aren't going to differentiate why this is so different from what other officials have done, even though they should because it is of a much greater scale. it's just the fact that he was offered an out as a privileged, powerful person, offered an out that i wouldn't have gotten, that you wouldn't have gotten, you wouldn't have gotten, and he could have given them back. >> nobody. >> he was an idiot and didn't do that. >> by the way, nobody would have gotten it. a war hero, general petraeus didn't get the option. former cia operative deutsch didn't get that. former national security adviser sandy burger didn't get that. they got charged. willie, think about it, the two

things that donald trump really is in the most trouble for right now with the feds, one, the documents. he could have just returned them when they asked for 'em. he could have returned them. he refused to. it was him sitting there with the documents that got him in trouble. then january 6th, could have very easily, when police started getting the hell beaten out of them, he could have gotten online and said, "leave the capitol. don't do this. there's a better way." he sat there and stared at cops getting brutalized and beaten, and the capitol getting vandalized with rioters, and he did absolutely nothing for a couple of hours. >> in fact, watched it, allegedly, gleefully in the dining room just off the oval office, as his people were trying to fight for him, he believed. the reason he didn't give these documents back is because, as the indictment makes clear, he genuinely believed they were

his. "these are mine," he says again and again, "these are mine." >> we'd talk about it, my army, my generals. >> yeah. >> my secretary of state, my this, my justice department. >> he also knew there was a process. >> well, he knew there was a process. they told him there was a process. you're right, willie, he didn't realize -- and i've said this to people walking into the white house, "you don't own this. you rent it for four years and eight if you're lucky." >> it's for the american people. >> he never got that. >> he thought the rules were different for him, and he is finally finding out they apply here. karl rove is out with a new piece in the "wall street journal" titled "trump invited this indictment." rove writes, quote, america has been plunged into an unprecedented crisis by the indictment of donald trump on 37 felony counts. the case will further tear our country apart as it has a heavy impact on the presidential campaign and wrongly undermines confidence in our justice system.

the blame for this calamity rests solely on mr. trump and his childish impulse to keep mementos from his time in the oval office, no matter what the law says. that's the way donald trump viewed them, as mmementos, gene robinson. in the indictment, trump's own assistant calls these the beautiful mind boxes and says, "no, he wants those on air force one with him," like traveling with the documents. he genuinely, and incorrectly, believed they belonged to him personally. >> in addition to being a bad person, donald trump is a deeply weird person. remember that point in the indictment where he's talking to evan corcoran, his lawyer, you know, about the pluck 'em out conversation, and he's saying, "i don't want anybody going through my boxes.

i don't want you going through my boxes." it is almost a gollum in "lord of the rings" moment, he has a hoarding instinct about the documents. some weird security blanket, some sort of -- it boosts his ego and reminds him that he actually somehow became president of the united states. i don't know what it is about it, but it's pathological, in addition to being criminal. >> you know, gene, also, karl rove goes on to say, this is all donald trump's fault. republicans know it's donald trump's fault. >> yeah. >> yet, they're acting like the worst progressives that they have contempt for, trying to defund the police. karl rove makes a point, "hey, idiots, defunding the fbi, that's not any better than defunding san francisco's police

department." >> right, exactly. they're taking these crazy positions that they don't believe in, in order to not offend donald trump's base. they think that their political careers are over if they offend the guy, and so they stick with him, inexplicably, because he is now facing these felony charges. there are going to be more felony charges. this is the guy they've decided they're going to stake their party's future on. i think that a political mistake in addition to being a tragedy for the country, but they're there. they're not profiles in courage, that's for sure. >> chuck rosenberg, it's hard not to chuckle a little bit when we're hearing the reports about him hoarding these boxes and dragging them all over the place and not letting anybody have them, but are we underestimating the gravity of the situation, calling these documents

mementos? it seems to me they're a little more than mementos. >> so much more. >> it seems to me, i mean, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence and things we're seeing around the edges here, family connections to saudi arabia, money changing hands, large amounts of it to family members. it seems to me these documents might have been not only highly classified and dangerous for americans who are serving this country, but expensive if you're in the mood to sell them. >> if donald trump were in the mood to sell them at some point. >> yeah, i think that's right, mika. so, two things. first, what you're talking about goes to motive. motive is always interesting. as a prosecutor, if you can prove motive, all the better, because it helps the jury understand the case and why a defendant did what a defendant was alleged to have done. but you don't need it, right? the government doesn't have to show he wanted to monetize these documents or he wanted to use it

in some other nefarious way, they just have to show, as the statute requires, that he had this stuff and unlawfully retained it. by the way, point number two, elise and richard both referred to this, the obstruction charges make that so much easier for the government. in order to prove intent, you have to crawl into someone's mind. i can imagine, and, you know, eugene is right, mr. trump is a weird guy, crawling into his mind would be a really uncomfortable place to go, but the obstruction charges permit you to do that. they evince intent. they help the government meet the burden to show the retention was unlawful, purposeful and not by mistake. when you take these together, the unlawful retention on one hand, the obstruction on the other, it would be nice to have motive, mika, but as a legal matter, you don't need it. by the way, if he was trying to sell this stuff, if he was

trying to monetize it, if foreign governments were getting it to help the trump family, the trump organization, make more dough, i think we'd see more charges. i'm confident we would. they're not there yet. now, doesn't mean they don't get there, but they're not there yet. interesting to talk about, but as a legal matter, not something the government has to prove. >> got it. >> richard, i'll get you in one second. jonathan lemire, really quickly, it is important we expand out on what mika just said. first of all, jared kushner got a couple billion dollars for his fund from the saudis. there's absolutely no evidence, nobody has ever suggested there's evidence of a connection between jared and donald trump on this money. in fact, all the reporting i've gotten, and i'm curious what you've heard, is that donald trump was enraged that kushner got $2 billion, his fund, as he'd say, off his name. >> off the president's name. >> off of the presidency.

that's one thing. the second thing is, though, i was starting to think, like mika, that perhaps this whole shtick we're thinking, he is a strange dude, why is he keeping this, to hug boxes? we've said from the beginning, and today is the eighth anniversary, people tell us, of donald trump coming down the escalator, we've said from the beginning, this is all about money. if you're trying to figure out donald trump's motive, whatever it is, we've been saying it for eight years, it's all about money. i'm not -- we have absolutely no evidence that he was selling this information to anybody, but i would never, i would never say, "oh, he was just doing this to hug the boxes." there's every reason to believe, given his past, that there would be a possibility that he might trade this information, if not directly for money, maybe for access, maybe just so he can

make contacts and build a hotel in this place or that place. not saying he did it, but we'd be foolish to think he's just keeping all of this information because he is a weird, quirky dude. >> first, on kushner, yeah, there's some frostiness there between the former president and his son-in-law about that deal. we've seen jared kushner and ivanka trump, at this point at least, have nothing to do with trump's re-election campaign. that's number one. as far as this, trump's orbit tried to explain the boxes story. more or less, with the theory we've been talking about, that he is a weird guy, a pack rat. it's more than that. it's that he is addicted to press clippings. things he cares about most are money, attention and power. they're all intertwined. >> fame. >> this is someone who, of course, would put up fake "time" magazine covers at his golf club in new jersey, who would, when people come to his office in trump tower, would show newspaper clippings, a favorable clipping from a decade past. some of these documents, the version the trump people are saying, is more of the same.

these are mementos, things he cares about, and they reinforce that he is important. they reinforce that people are talking about him. they reinforce that he's got power, and he doesn't want to give those things up. he had these secrets that no one else did, and he still thinks he is deserving of them. you're right, of course, we always have to wonder if there is a financial implication, as you say, there's no evidence, but there is a sense that by having these things, it increases his fame, notoriety and gets more people to buy golf club memberships, more people to donate to his next campaign effort, whatever it might be. looking under the hood, it is not hard to find a financial incentive to anything he does. >> richard? >> i'm struck by the difference, what's happening in the uk and what's happening here. in the uk, you have the tori party, they were prepared to suspend boris johnson 90 days. he'd lose his parliamentary privileges. he would have been rejected by his people, and it pushed him to

resign. the difference between the way the conservative party stood up to reject someone who basically lied to parliament, one of your most fundamental duties, betrayed his position, and then here. kevin mccarthy is still standing by him rather than standing up to him. to me, it's not just about donald trump. it's how he has infected the republican party. >> it is a poison. >> think about the difference. >> yeah. >> you have boris johnson in trouble for lying about parties that he threw. >> parties. >> here, donald trump in trouble for lying about stealing nuclear secrets, and kevin mccarthy is defending him. the speaker of the house is defending a guy and trying to turn it on other people for donald trump stealing nuclear secrets, keeping them and lying about it. >> republicans become weaker as they lelet tether themselves mo to it. you have a field of 13 republicans vying for the nomination, and trump is running

away from it and probably would still get the nomination from a prison cell at this stage in the game. >> yeah. >> because no one is willing to attack him. if you don't attack any of this, then you're just giving him free reign. >> it is simple. you stole nuclear secrets. i won't. >> yeah. >> i mean, it's really not -- i've done this before. it's not that hard to de-bone somebody that stole nuclear secrets from the united states government and lied to the fbi and the doj about it. i know everybody goes, oh, the party is different from when you were there. yeah, it is, but human nature is not. you look people in the eye and say, "do you really want to have somebody in the white house for four more years that lied about stealing nuclear secrets from the united states government?" >> also, who would work for him? chuck rosenberg has to go. just process wise, chuck, judge cannon sent a date for lawyers

to get security clearances. is that signaling he's moving this along? we're watching her, as well. >> if it is a signal, mika, it's one relatively faint signal. in order to start this case, mr. trump's lawyers need to review the evidence that the government has amassed. in order to review the government's evidence, they need security clearances. hopefully that won't take too long. hopefully the government expedites it, but, you know, your larger point is a really important one, mika. because the timing of this case is going to turn on the judge, how she annag manages her cour and docket. jack smith wants a speedy trial. of course he does. the evidence the government has, the case, the presentation does not get better with age. it's not a fine wine. but it's the judge who is going to determine sort of how quickly this move. so i'm glad to see she's started the process.

it's a logical, necessary first step, but it doesn't necessarily foreshadow how she's going to manage the rest of it. we need to see her rulings on motions. we need to make sure she's getting the stuff right. it'll be interesting to see whether the government has to take interlocutory appeals, a fancy way of describing appeals that the government would take pretrial to challenge her rulings if they think she is in error. so good start, expected start. the devil is in the details, and the details are to come. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," more new legal trouble for donald trump. a federal judge has set a date for writer e. jean carroll's second defamation trial against the former president. we'll have the details on that case. also ahead, live reporting from beijing ahead of a long-awaited visit from secretary of state blinken that was called off in february over the chinese spy balloon incident. plus, keir simmons joins us

with his reporting on russia's answer to the world economic forum being held this weekend in st. petersburg. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. oh, my god. >> they should give me immediately back everything they've taken from me because it's mine. it's mine. >> why didn't you say something? >> john has always been a little weird. >> bing-bing, bong, bong, bing-bing. >> said he was doing code breaking and it was eyes only. >> donald trump's very, very large brain. >> lately, he becomes so much more agitated. >> i did everything right, and they indicted me. these boxes were containing all types of personal belongingsment belongingsment. . i had every right to have these

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get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. we have deployed news chopper 4. look at that beautiful shot over new york city. >> gorgeous. >> 6:38 on a friday. joe, that's how you use chopper 4 from our friends at wnbc. >> looking good. >> that's how you use chopper 4. when you push that button, right, instead of pushing that button to try to bleep something i say, this is the proper use of chopper 4 on a beautiful, beautiful june friday morning. >> look at that, flying down the east river. there's the un, central park in the distance, george washington bridge. i could look at it all day. back to the news. >> i know. >> for the first time since the

u.s. shot down a suspected chinese spy balloon, diplomats from the countries will meet. secretary of state blinken will have an important meeting with his chinese counterpart in beijing. let's bring in janis mackey frayer, live from beijing. good to see you. how did this meeting come together, first of all, and what do we expect to see from the leaders today? >> reporter: well, high stakes and low expectations, but it's on. the secretary of state is getting on a plane tonight. he will be here for meetings on sunday and monday in what is seen as a bid to try to salvage this relationship. in many ways, it's the reset of the reset, because this is a visit that was supposed to happen four months ago and was called off by the secretary of state when that chinese balloon was shot down. the relationship was already having a particularly bumpy year then, so the expectation or the

hope is that they can -- both sides can show that they can manage this relationship responsibly. so, in that sense, even going through the motions has some utility. there are actually few details about who is going to meet and when, but we know that he will get time with china's president xi jinping on monday. it's just a matter of when. incidentally, president xi had a private meeting today with bill gates. it's very rare that the chinese president will meet with a business leader. he said to him, and i quote, you are the first american friend to visit me this year. there is no shortage of issues for either side to discuss. you name it, it's probably on the table. tariffs, taiwan, a.i., american detainees, human rights, confrontation in the south china sea, fentanyl.

from both sides i've talked to over the last couple of days, there is the sense that it's best to view this as the first stage of a process, where each side is trying to explore the limits of the other side and how they can proceed with some sort of relationship without making it look like they're softening on their positions. it actually started a couple of days ago with a phone call between the secretary of state and the foreign minister here, foreigner u.s. ambassador, former ambassador to the u.s. judging by the readout, it wasn't a very warm conversation. there's a lot of very careful language that's being used on both sides about trying to manage competition and keeping the lines of communication open. overall, there will be no breakthroughs from this, but the very fact that they are having this visit is being seen as a sign that they don't want the relationship to unravel even further. it seems that there were several

risks of that happening. we're not sure if we should call it a thaw, but maybe just enough to get the people in the same room at the same time, and the sense that this could pave the way for more high-level cabinet visits and perhaps reset relations in that sense, too. >> nbc's janis mackey frayer in beijing ahead of an important few days there. thanks so much. richard haass, take us through this a bit, how this came together, given everything we've seen in the last few weeks, with the destroyer coming too close to call in the south china sea, the military jet crossing in front of our surveillance planes, sending a message, perhaps. how important are these next few days in beijing? >> look, sometimes in this diplomacy business, willie, you have ambitions to achieve things. i think the united states and china, it's more what you can avoid. the two countries are trying to establish a floor. this is a relationship that's

been in free fall. from the u.s. point of view, the immediate priority is to get the chinese to put some pressure on russia, to continue not to help them in ukraine. i think we also would like to set some guardrails on taiwan. china has a different set of priorities. this meeting is happening behind a fast, deteriorating chinese economy. the juan one area in the pocket the commerce department, trade, investment. china's youth unemployment is incredibly high. >> the da doors over the past several months have swung wide open for american businessmen and businesswomen, corporate leaders, yet they're still playing coy when it comes to diplomats. >> they're not interested in having the talks be the pentagon because they want to keep up the pressure. they believe we are much more sensitive to being scared by the possibility of an incident that might get us to back off support for taiwan. they're doing nothing to

reassure us on the military side. they're doing everything -- the meeting with bill gates is another signal.ested in is help for the chinese government. they don't want u.s. sanctions, technology restrictions to continue to expand. the expression these days, joe, is where we want a high fence around a small yard. that's what the treasury secretary yellen is talking about. the real debate in washington in the administration, how big should this yard be? how restrictive are we going to be on china? what xi jinping is worried about is we will be really restrictive on technology and the like going there, so that's what this is about. that's their agenda, economic. our agenda is ukraine and taiwan. very interesting, not quite ships passing in the night, but this is not a major breakthrough. this week, in russia's second largest city, the country is holding its annual gathering of experts for the st. peters petersburg economic forum. less than an hour, president putin is expected to speak. joining us if london, chief

international correspondent keir simmons with more on what we can expect. keir? >> reporter: hey, mika. you're right, we expect president putin to start speaking in what is always a keynote speech in st. petersburg at some stage. he often starts late, and it usually goes on for many hours. western journalists have not been given accreditation to attend. i think that speaks to how concerned russia's security services are, frankly, to protect president putin. it's not that long ago that there was a bomb that killed a military blogger in st. petersburg. we're hearing from peskov, the kremlin spokesman, that the speech will include comments about russia's so-called special military operation. he says it is mostly an economic speech, but inevitably, there will be comments about this. another interesting point, the president of uae is there at the

event but will not take part in the forum, according to demetri peskov, who says his schedule will not allow him. that is an interesting indication of kind of the level of international nervousness around russia now. the president of uae going but not prepared to sit on the stage, according to dimitri peskov, because of his schedule. if the of algeria will be there. an interesting show of support for russia in the global south. i think, you know, when i talk to you guys, i try to bring a reality check about russia. i think the global south point, i mean, that segues to to question about the russian people. clearly, president putin will be talking to the russian people. we do have some polling from an organization which is the most trustworthy polling you can get in russia. i think that's very interesting. just the recent polling from may

says that putin's approval rating is 82% amongst the russian people, 15% disagreeing with a question about his approval. now, i understand that many russians will answer that question in the way they think they're expected to, but it is still an indication, i think. if you just look at another question that the center asked, the attitude to the united states amongst the russian people. 77% saying they have a negative view of the united states. 12% saying they have a positive view. dig into those numbers a little more. 45% of russians polled by the center believe that the war in ukraine will last for at least another year. 25% believe the war will end no sooner than six months. i think it was interesting, notable to hear richard engel's incitement interview with president zelenskyy, where he described his counteroffensive

as difficult. it looks as if he is trying to signal that this may be a long battle, and it looks like the russian people think that's the case, too. quite simply, there is no sign of any backing down on either side. >> keir, i'd like to change the subject if you might, to what's happening there in london. boris johnson has resigned. a couple other allies went with him. he's now found to have lied to parliament. what has happened to the conservative party? what does this mean for sunak? what does it mean for boris johnson? is this adios or hasta la vista, baby? >> reporter: well, you never want to count boris joon sonjoh. look, basically, take a wide lens, this is the british conservative party tearing itself apart. it's also an example of the ruthlessness of the party. you know, how prepared it is to

just cut out a former leader if it thinks it is in its interest. this is an interesting point, a mirror to what is happening there, it's a battle for the soul of the conservative party, for the future of the conservative party. when boris johnson was leader at the are last election, seems a long time ago now, one of the things he did was he won in a lot of parts of the north of england, working class voters who would traditionally vote labor, the democrat equivalent if you'd like. he won them over. really, in a way not since margaret thatcher. one of the questions with the conservative party is, are they the party of the middle class, of the south, as they have been for a long period, or is that shift to more of a northern vote, more working class voters if you'd like, is that real? i think we'll find out in the next election. but, you've got to say, just politically, it's hard to see

how the conserative party win the next election when they look so divided. >> all right. nbc's keir simmons, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> i mean, you've got to say, elise, the conservatives at least over there are trying to respond in aggressive way to move beyond boris johnson, to move beyond some of the failed prime ministers. sunak at least having somebody, you know, i think he is more of an efficient technocrat without all of the baggage, but they're doing their best to move beyond the failed past. not so conservatives in america. >> right? they're being ruthless in moving on and trying to keep power after having them in power, i believe, for 13 years, which is a long stretch to keep going continuously, one party winning so much. but, you know -- >> they're done. >> i don't see how it willie, i was in politics a while. >> in congress.

>> i've been looking at the cross-tabs in the putin poll. 85%, 85% support vladimir putin. the 15% disapprove. i'm reading the cross-tabs. 12% of those from jail. if you look, 3% of those within 30 minutes of answering that they disapproved pushed out of apartment windows. >> horrible. >> those are the cross-tabs in the russian polls. >> those remind me of the saddam hussein elections, where there was 100% reported turnout and 100% of the vote for saddam hussein. even reagan lost one state in '84. not sure, maybe take nose -- those numbers with a grain of salt. >> mourning in baghdad? it wasn't. for the claims of recall owe recordings that supposedly claim president biden was involved in a foreign bribery scheme,

hearing a lot about that in the last week, republicans admit they're not sure the tapes really exist after all. >> it is a clown show. >> really? >> it is such a clown show. >> you spend all that time, at the time that trump was indicted and arraigned, talking about these tapes. >> look at larry, mo and curly. we have the stooges. >> we'll show the comments. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪

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>> oh, yeah! >> number two at 15 today. >> a pair of aces at the 15th hole at the los angeles country club yesterday in the first round of the u.s. open. richard haass, a great leaderboard. in the setting up to be a great tournament. rickie fowler, xander schauffele both shot 62 yesterday. fowler shot it first, setting the u.s. open record. schauffele came in after him and tied it. these are all-time records we're seeing in the first round. the 15th hole, i think yesterday, richard, was playing 121 yards or something. they're talking about on one of these days, it might be 80 yards. guys hitting hill wedges up there for a couple aces yesterday. >> quirky golf curious. you have the shortest par 3 and probably the longest. another par 3 close to 300 yards. great to see rickie fowler back. he went through some really, really dark times, really emotionally and mentally. to see him back in the lead is

fantastic. i don't know whether he can hold. you have xander schauffele. scottie scheffler is lurking. really good weather forecast. get ready, willie. get on your college shirt. >> richard haass being the golf correspondent. you're getting smoother at it. >> any fistfights between the liv players and pga players? >> no, everybody is confused about where things stand. you have the antitrust questions. you have jay monahan not there because he has medical problems suddenly. everyone wants to respect his situation. but nobody knows where this is going. >> could the senate kill this merger, or is it the justice department? >> senate could ask difficult questions. justice department, it is anti-competitive. beforehand, it was anti-competitive because the pga was trying to squelch liv. now, there is a for-profit,

not-for-profit, cumbersome thing. >> yeah. >> a lot of cranky players. >> richard haass, thank you very much. have a great weekend. i'll follow up about your kids. >> i don't know what that's about, richard, but our thoughts and prayers to you. >> always, always. >> we're having them on. coming you, the latest surrounding donald trump's federal indictment, including the first move by the judge overseeing the criminal case. plus, our next guest says trump can't bluster his way through court. we'll explain straight ahead on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. phil: excuse me? hillary: that wasn't me. narrator: said hillary, who's only taken 347 steps today. hillary: i cycled here. narrator: speaking of cycles, mary's period is due to start in three days. mary: how do they know so much about us? narrator: your all sharing health data without realizing it. that's how i know about kevin's rash. who's next? wait... what's that in your hand? no, no, stop! oh you're no fun.

[lock clicks shut]

i'm angry. the country is going to go through tumult as a result of one thing, president trump didn't turn over military documents when he was asked to do so. all he had to do was hand them in. i'm sure his counsel told him, "hand the documents in," particularly when the subpoena came. for some reason, he decided not to. he held on to them. why? that's the question. why is the country going to have to go through all this angst and tumult? why didn't he turn the documents in? >> that is the question. >> yeah, that is the question. welcome back to "morning joe." it's friday, june the 16th. a beautiful shot of the statue of liberty. >> i love that. >> beautiful shot of the empire state building. >> no. >> i know. >> statue of liberty. >> incredible shot. incredible shot of the statue of liberty.

just beautiful. willie, we've been talking about how there's been sort of, just skort of a leaking of support, bit by bit. mitt romney never supported donald trump, never close to it. still, republicans speaking out against him is a rare change. romney has done it more than most. still, when we comes out, when mike pence is moving away from trump the way he has the last three days, other republicans are speaking the truth about how it is bad for people to steal nuclear secrets from the united states government, we are seeing a bit of a trend line here. >> yeah, without question. another why for mitt romney, as he is asking why, why does it always fall to mitt romney to be the republican in the senate to criticize donald trump? you're seeing more of it, as you point out. our colleagues at nbc news have a new story out of the state of nevada. adam laxal, who ran for senate, the attorney general said plainly, "he can't win here.

"now, he's back with a super pac, ron desantis, saying he lost twice. is he suddenly getting independent voters and can he get a win in nevada? republicans are saying, "the guy can't win in our state, we have to go with someone else." he is backing ron desantis. >> some would say laxal was in it to win it for trump, maybe too long, saying, "he can't win here," and he is in nevada, he is hearing from republicans there. we're hearing it. i've been saying for some time, i've been starting to hear it from my friends who have been with him from the very beginning. through thick and thin. they're exhausted. they were exhausted before he got busted stealing nuclear secrets, and he got caught on tape admitting as much. >> donald trump is going to get the nomination at current pace. can he win? can he win in wisconsin, in

nevada? >> no. >> even win in georgia is questionable. >> no. >> pennsylvania? it's going to come down to these states, and there are some republican strategists who might think that clinging to donald trump is the way to get the senate or gubernatorial candidates over the line. we didn't see it happen last time. >> this story is simple, and mitt romney crystallized it. i think the question people will have, you interview a lot of republicans, is, why didn't he give them back? everyone else gave them back. why didn't he give them back, and we could avoid all this drama and trauma on our democracy. it is an inflection point he's created, and a problem for himself he's created. >> by the way, jonathan lemire, that's exactly what we heard from karl rove in the "wall street journal" op-ed yesterday. it's what we're hearing from mitt romney, from andy mccarthy

of "the national review," what we heard from the "the national review" over and over again. people who -- i'm not talking about andy mccarthy here, but so many people who have spent the last seven years just wallowing, wallowing in anti-trumpism to a laughable degree, are now, you know, instead of trying to own the libs, get the subscriptions up, they're actually starting to tell the truth. this guy stole nuclear secrets. there was no excuse for it. he can't win next year. >> it's unambiguous, what he did. he had documents he shouldn't have had. when they asked for them back, he said no and tried to hide them. it is a simple story to tell, and it is different from what biden and pence did. in terms of republicans, i'll say, talking to republicans across the country, reporters who have fanned out, talking to voters, there is a sense that, though trump is still the number one choice, his support is softer this time around. some republicans who really liked him in '16, voted again in

'20, still like him now, still say, hey, he was a good president, but there is a sense, a recognition that maybe he can want win, and they'd be open to someone else. now, who that someone else is remains to be seen. someone is going to have to step forward. someone has to win the votes. but there is a sense that, though there's a small percentage of republicans always with trump, always, always, always, others, even supporters, would entertain another candidate if the person, he or she, can win them over. >> there's so much complaining about a two-tiered justice system and the weaponization of the justice system. it's also, i think, penetrating the ether and sort of getting out there that, actually, it's geared toward donald trump. the doj was very careful in its process in terms of trying to retrieve the documents that don't belong to donald trump that are classified and highly, highly dangerous to have out there in the public eye. they took their time. nobody else would get the time

that donald trump -- >> nobody. >> -- got. >> nobody. >> anybody else in this situation, am i wrong, would be in custody. >> anybody -- you know it from working in the state department. i know it from working in congress. richard was talking about working in the white house. any of us would have been in jail by now. i mean, if we'd had this many documents, they'd never do a plea deal. >> he had every chance to return them. >> nobody other than donald trump. this whole idea, you know, the big lie that there is a two-tiered justice system, what about hillary? that lie is blown to pieces. now, people are waking up to the reality that donald trump tried to get the justice department to indict him in '17 and get a special counsel. they said, "there is nothing there." tried in 2018 to get the justice department to appoint a special counsel. sorry, mr. president, there's nothing there. james comey said a couple months before handing the election to donald trump with the letter ten days beforehand, said, no prosecutor would bring a case

against hillary clinton. even that lie is having blown out of the water. the biden crime family lie is being blown out of the water. they're being forced to look at donald trump, and they're seeing a guy who stole nuclear secrets, lied about it repeatedly, lied to the doj, lied to the fbi, lied to his own lawyers about it. >> it's a mess. >> now, do we really want to lose again with a guy who stole nuclear secrets, or do we go with somebody else? >> donald trump looks like an idiot on this one. he had a chance. he had a do-over. >> multiple chances. >> couldn't bring himself to do it. the end of the day, if you're arguing about the refs, if you're arguing about the doj and fbi, you're losing. >> yeah. >> as with anything in line. if you're arguing over the referees, you're losing. >> we have historians with us this morning. >> thank god. >> joining us now, pulitzer prize winning author and

presidential historian doris kearns goodwin and u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce is with us this morning. ed, your latest piece for the f.t. is entitled, "trump would burn america before facing justice." that's one way to put it. i think he would. >> he really would. we'll get to that in a second. doris, eight years ago today, donald trump went down the escalator. you had talked to us about this yesterday. let's just revise one of the most famous questions in presidential debate history. are you better off now than you were four years ago? how are we in america, eight years after donald trump's descent? >> i do think the question that ronald reagan asked in 1980, which really won him the election, because people could say, "no, we're not better off than we were four years ago under carter," can ask, are we better off than eight years ago?

he came in, the first president to be impeached twice. he lived through the chaos of an election he lost in 2020, that he refused to accept the loss of, that led to the stolen election lie, and then led to the instigation of january 6th and the refusal, to now say he's going to pardon the people. now, here we are with two indictments, the first time a rm former president has been indicted. do we want the chaos again? no reason to think he'll change. teddy roosevelt said the most important thing a president does is to set an example for our children, for us, an example through his words and through his behavior. do we want more years of an example being set of somebody who doesn't acknowledge responsibility, who doesn't tell the truth, who refuses to accept loss? the very thing you want your kids to learn about. he feels he is above the rules. if we ask ourselves the questions, we're exhausted. to we want this to go on another group of years?

that is the most important question to ask. >> to add to the long list, do you want someone who wouldn't can't hire an administration? every he has hired as either testified against him or he has -- i can't think of a nicer way to say it -- screwed over. he doesn't care. he hires people and dumps them and trashes them. who would want to work for this man? who would want anything to do with him? >> also, the prosecutor's witness list are all people who work for him. >> it'll be tough. >> yeah. >> let's read from ed's piece, "trump would burn america before facing justice." ed, you write, in each of his first two elections, trump up ended u.s. norms a rallying cry was the clinton-targeted "lock her up." those days seem tame by comparison. how much further would trump go next year to keep himself out of prison? the question is rhetorical. we can only guess at what he'd not contemplate doing.

on the plus side, the majority of u.s. voters believe trump's criminal charges could make him inevitable to run again. on the minus, trump's character and methods were not exactly a mystery in 2016. most modern u.s. elections begin with a roughly 50/50 handicap because of the quirks of the electoral college. trump would need 47% of the vote to be within range of regaining the white house. that'd be his get out of jail free card and america's funeral. >> ed, how many -- >> wow. >> how many articles have we read since 2017? this is the worst that donald trump has gotten. donald trump has reached the bottom. then, by 2018, how many articles have we gotten that said, "there's no bottom, but this is close to the bottom." then january -- well, we had him lying about election fraud. tried to steal the presidential

election. really inspired a riot on january 6th. then stole nuclear secrets. how much worse can it get? people say, don't call donald trump a fascist. he'd never do this, do that. donald trump will do whatever donald trump can get away with. there is no bottom, and not just by american standards but by international standards. he's not hitler. no, he is not hitler, but don't give him a chance. >> no, he's not. i mean, one of the last things hitler wrote in his diary is the german people deserve to perish, before hitler took his life. i'm not comparing trump to hitler or trumpism to nazism, so don't get me wrong. but the narcissistic conflation of your own fate with that of your nation, and where down to the last, you will blame others for what you have brought upon

yourself, that's trump. that's hitler. that's populists of varying degrees throughout history. there is no bottom to what trump will conflate of his own sense of persecution, to try to say, well, that's me standing for you, america. thaw they want to get you, but i'm standing in the way for you. when he gave the speech in bedminster tuesday night, he said, "there will be justice in november 2024." that that day will be justice day. of course, he projects, it means it'll be injustice day. that'll be the day when -- i don't think it is going to happen. i don't think america is going to re-elect trump. i believe there is a significant risk, but that'd be the day where if it did happen, we have only ourselves to blame. he told us very clearly he will do this things he is accusing biden of.

namely, weaponizing justice to go after his enemies. this time, he's not going to have a jeff sessions. >> ed, ed, not to interrupt you, but one of the things that drives me crazy is, 77 million americans voted for him despite the fact he very publicly pressured his own attorney general two weeks before the election to arrest his opponent who was leading him in the poll s, and his opponent's family. barr wouldn't don't. >> yeah. >> but if barr had continued down the trajectory he had been on, he would have arrested joe biden and joe biden's family. that's why i'm saying, the whole thing where people say, oh, he's not a fascist. really? are you sure? >> he is past that. >> are you sure about that? donald trump, donald trump, and let me say it again, he will do whatever he can get away with doing. if he hasn't done it, it's

because of our government's checks and balances. but if people don't believe he wouldn't jail and kill journalists and political opponents, like erdogan or like vladimir putin, you're not paying attention to him. you're not paying attention to his words. i'm not speaking about you here, ed. you're also not paying attention to who he's idolized for years. >> yup. >> no, you're not. i mean, you were talking a little bit earlier about whether anybody could serve in another trump administration. look, there are plenty of people who aren't on the witness list, like jeff clark, the doj attorney who was willing to seize ballot boxes in late 2020 and claim that this was a rigged election. you've got kash patel, a really dark force who would probably be head of cia. you have ric grenell who would

be secretary of state. you have ultra trumpians who will do their master's bidding, whatever that might be, lined up to populate a trump administration. there would be no jeff sessions wrestling with conflicts of interest as attorney general. there would be people who would be ready from day one to shut down the deep state, as trump keeps calling it, and to, you know, impose the loyalty tests on federal bureaucrats, on civil servants. >> right. willie, he named two people, kash patel and ri grenell, a dark and stupid force. you know, this goes back to what anne applebaum wrote about when she was talking about authoritarians. you know, they substitute competence for blind loyalty. we've seen that with donald

trump. he surrounds himself with people who are more loyal, less equipped, and immoral. >> those people were loyal foot soldiers also in the attempted coup against the united states government in the 2020 election. you better believe that donald trump, if re-elected, would put in place an attorney general who would make all his legal trouble go away. let's bring in contributing writer at "the atlantic," a fellow in governance studies at the brookings institution and senior in law. let's read your piece, "trump can't bluster his way through court." quinta writes this, the courtroom is an inhospitable space for bluster. it is for careful evaluation of meaning and argument. in court, trump is no longer on his home turf. in that sense, the mar-a-lago indictment represents the latest collision between the legal system and trump's insistence on

defining the terms of his own reality. for all trump loves to file lawsuits against those he claims wronged him, the courtroom represents a space that's hostile to falsehoods. lawyers can't lie without law or fact. they have to set out the reason behind the claims, instead of insisting something is credit because they say so. we saw this during the 2020 election when they'd make all his supporters, rudy giuliani and everyone else making claims on tv and podcasts. the minute they went before a judge, they'd lose or say, "well, we're not claiming this in a legal sense, we were just saying that on fox news. ". >> that's exactly right. now, some of the lawyers who did decide to go out there and make the claims in court are now facing bar discipline. including, for example, rudy giuliani. so we've seen that, you know, when someone tries to bring a sort of trump style falsehood

into the courtroom, that can end very badly. it's also the case that, you know, those were civil cases. no one's freedom was on the line. now, trump is facing federal criminal court, and that is a very inhospitable environment for the kind of lying and bluster that we've all become so familiar with. >> quinta, elise jordan here. is this a case, though, where it's such a tricky intersection of the political and the judge appointed by trump and has been favorably disposed to him in past cases where he just -- he has the political upper hand, and so even if his legal -- you know, even if his legal defense is weak, it doesn't matter as much? >> it's a great point. i do think that judge ailene cannon's role complicates the story i'm telling a bit.

cannon, we saw in previous litigation over the documents was apparently very well-disposed toward trump. arguably tipped the scales a little bit in his favor, to the extent that the 11th circuit court of appeals stepped in and slapped her down a bit. so, there's been a lot of speculation about whether she might be inclined to, you know, nudge things a little bit in trump's favor again. now, we haven't seen anything yet, and so i certainly be withhold judgment until we see how cannon plans to oversee this trial. but i do think that her role points to how, as you say, the courts are not just an abstract space where truth is fought out. they're a site of political con fesation. that is, you know, trump's comfort zone in many ways. cannon has kind of become a representation of that. >> we'll talk more about the

judge. senior at "law fair," quinta, thank you for coming on the show this morning. >> doris, we try, we try or at least try to try to not catastrophize about what goes on every day. i stand by exactly what i said about donald trump. we've known him. we've seen him. i still believe he would do whatever he could get away with doing. >> yes. >> and do anything to anybody that stood in his wa of even more power. but we have a system of checks and balances. madisonian democracy. thanks to the judicial branch, mainly held the line against donald trump's attacks on american democracy. i am curious, though, what your thoughts are as we start to move into an election year and we see just how grand the stakes are here, how massive, how massive

the consequences are over what americans decide to do over the next 14, 15 months. >> you know, joe, i think on the one hand -- excuse me -- on the one hand, he has already told us in the cpac talk, that what he wants to do in the next term is retribution. he wants reprisals. what i'm reminded of, this day, june 16th, is when lincoln accepted at the statehouse his nomination by his illinois convention to be running for the president of the united states. what he was arguing throughout his entire presidency was, you do not want retribution. in his very last day in a cab debt, he told the people, i want to extinguish hate, don't want vindictiveness.

i want a union. it's the opposite of where president trump is right now. on the other hand, we've been seeing something, even in this talk in the last couple minutes, public sentiment is changing. it is different from public opinion. we hear, public opinion, oh million god, they still like trump. the dallas morning news, the christianity today editorial, karl rove, people are beginning to say, we know what he did was wrong. even if the judge -- we don't know what the rulings she's going to make are -- the real battle is public sentiment. that is different from public opinion. what lincoln said, it is a feeling that people begin to sense that something is not right with what is being done, and we want something different. i really think we're beginning to move in that direction. do we really want a slogan, as his so far has been, of retribution or reprisal or america is a mess and i'll make it better? do we want the slogans like square deal, fair deal, new deal, morning in america? america is still an optimistic country that wants us to move

forward, and i think it is time for him to go. people are beginning to feel that. if public sentiment keeps speaking out, that's the battle that wasn't won after january 6th. i thought it'd be won then. i thought it then. that's the only scary thing. you think it before, maybe this is not going to be the time. but i do think the accumulation is setting in, and people who are not speaking out before are beginning to. his opponents will have to say something. more important, the people are going to say, do we really, really want to go through this again? i don't think they'll say yes. i really, really don't. >> doris, let's dig in just a little bit more on abraham lincoln, on this anniversary. let's talk about the lincoln anniversary. it's always struck me that after the south started a war over slavery that killed 600,000, 700,000 americans, it was abraham lincoln that talked about with malice toward none.

even after all of that, it was grant who showed extraordinary grace, despite the fact that he had so many people that he knew killed by the confederates. it was sherman, even after his march across georgia. >> right. >> his march to the sea, he got to savannah and actually told the confederates, "listen, i'm coming north. i'm going to do the same thing through the carolinas that i did to georgia, but i make you this promise. you can leave your families here. you can leave your wives here. you can leave your children here in savannah. you all surrendered, so we didn't burn it down. i'm coming north for you, you can go north, but i'm going to take care of your families. and i'm going to go around savannah and let my soldiers know that their safety is in my hands. so you go, you worry about me because i'm coming after you,

but you don't have to worry about your wife, you don't have to worry about your kids." that is the extraordinary grace, the opposite of retribution, that lincoln, grant, and sherman showed during the most horrendous of american wars. and this is an emotion, this is a character trait completely absent from donald trump and, unfortunately, in all those who are around donald trump still. >> you know, joe, you're so right. i mean, vindictiveness was at its height, of course, as the war was coming to an end. all that everybody had suffered. and there's a group of people that wanted to be vindictive. they didn't want anybody in the confederate government to be able to be teachers or lawyers. but the leadership stood up and said, we're not going to do that. we're going to extinguish hate. in fact, lincoln said, i want them to have their guns to go back. they need to shoot the birds or animals in their property. let them up easy.

we need leadership now to begin. the vindictiveness will be out there for those who like trump, because they believe in him, but the leaders have to speak out and educate the country. lincoln always said, if you allow yourself to fester with poisonous emotion like anger, vindictiveness, trying to get back at people, you'll poison yourself. that's what will happen to this country unless the moments of vindictiveness are squashed. i think we're seeing more people now who will be willing to understand that, and that's the battle that's going to be fought right now. i don't think we're on a losing end of the battle. i've said that before, but i really think now we're seeing it. >> ed luce, let's take doris' point to you about the need for leaders to speak out. it's for the republicans, but perhaps the current president of the united states, joe biden. he and his team are not addressing the criminal matters around donald trump right now. in part, because there's still

an open investigation into his own handling of classified materials, and also the hunter biden matter. those will, at some point, will educated one way or the other. at some point, does he as the president, does he need to speak about where we are? particularly if indictments continue to pile up against donald trump, particularly one over january 6th, overthrowing our democracy. do we need to hear from him, or should he lever it lever it to ? >> he campaigned on promising to restore the proper relationship between the white house and the department of justice, which is, he'd appoint an attorney general and let him get on with his job without interference. that was because of all of the attempted and successful, in some cases, interferences that had happened between trump and his doj and the preceding four years. biden properly campaigned on that. i believe him, that he has stuck to that pledge, that he hasn't

been in contact with merrick garland. i also believe merrick garland when he said he hasn't spoken to jack smith. the attorney general and the special counsel. i think it would be unnecessary at this point for biden to break that habit. that said, 2024, if trump is indeed the nominee, is going to be a referendum on the rule of law. that's essentially what next year's presidential election would be. of course, once we get into that, once it is clear trump is the nominee, then biden is going to have to talk about what the consequences are of electing somebody who is pledging openly to use the legal system as his own personal tool for retribution. which is, essentially, a fascist thing. i think joe is right on that. so biden cannot avoid that in a campaign. but for the time being, i think it is very important he continues to uphold the

principle, that the department of justice takes its own decisions for independent reasons, for professional, evaluative, rule of law reasons, as it has been doing. >> elise, how depressing. there's so many things we've been depressed about over the past eight years about our former party, former republican party, but how depressing that they've been willing to trash the military when the military wouldn't go along with trump's coup. they're willing to trash the fbi when the fbi actually didn't allow the capitol to be overrun. they've trashed america. they don't trust democracy because their guy lost. they lost one election and suddenly are ready to say, the hell with america. as karl rove wrote, they're willing to trash the rule of law. they're willing to destroy the rule of law. the republican party, kevin

mccarthy is willing to destroy what makes our democracy, i think, unique among democracies across the globe. kevin mccarthy is willing to destroy the rule of law to protect a guy that stole nuclear secret. let's say it again. the leader of the house. >> second in line. >> the second in line in america, you really -- you wouldn't believe this if this were in a netflix movie. the second in line to the white house is trying to destroy america's rule of law and tarnish its reputation, undermine the department of justice, undermine the federal bureau of investigations, undermine people's faith in madisonian he wants to defend a guy who stole nuclear secrets. >> think of how, in the past, an

appreciation for a sense of history, like you and doris were talking about, protected americans and protected american institutions. if you have politicians and leaders who simply do not care how they are judged in their excesses, then you see where it goes so off course so quickly. emotions that are hard to summon, like grace to those you're fighting against in a civil war, are slightly easier when your own ego is involved, thinking about how you'll be perceived in the future. trump and his allies simply don't have that. >> no, they don't. doris kearns goodwin and ed luce, thank you, both, for being on. have a great weekend. by the way, boris johnson, sorry, ed, we didn't ask you about boris johnson. quick thought? >> well, we're back to england, and the sheriff of nottingham has been thrown out of

parliament, which i think is good news. mostly, i think britain got the worst of the 2016 outcome, of america continuing to grow. britain is shrinking because of brexit. but it has held to account a serial liar, a trumpian figure, much more trivial transgressions, the breaking of the lockdown rules. but britain did have extremely strict lockdown rules that boris johnson imposed and then flouted continually. he lied to parliament, no previous prime minister ever has, has a committee, majority of whom were not just conservative members of parliament but pro-brexit and pro-johnson conservative members of parliament said, "you'verule parliament, misled parliament, and it is unacceptable." i think boris' career is over. you know, in finding silver linings to britain's rather self-destructive recent story, this is a really, really sharp,

bright silver lining. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," republicans have been pushing allegations of audio recordings concerning a biden bribery scheme. now, some of the republicans are admitting their smoking gun may not actually exist. also ahead, the nation's largest labor organization is about to make an endorsement in the 2024 presidential cycle. we'll be joined by the president of the afl-cio. as we go to break, willie geist, what do you have planned for "sunday today"? >> got a big one for you guys this week. scarlett johansson is my guest. >> wow. >> she stars in a movie "asteroid city," which is out today. she is amazing in it. a cast with tom hanks. unbelievable cast. as wes anderson does, something completely unique and different than you've seen. scarlett and i got together at the headquarters of her skin care company. joe, i got you some eye cream and toner that will

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it is 7:40 on the east coast on a friday morning. president biden will travel to connecticut today to headline the national safer community summit. the gun violence prevention conference will gather advocates and politicians to discuss new gun safety measures. the summit also will mark the first anniversary of the safer communities act passed after the uvalde school shooting. the measure includes things like closing the boyfriend loophole and bolstering support for red flag laws. vice president kamala harris is set to deliver a speech in north carolina next week to mark the anniversary of the reversal of roe versus wade.

her trip to charlotte is among several events the white house plans to hold to keep abortion front and center ahead of the 2024 election. harris plans to draw a contrast between the biden administration's support for abortion rights and republican-led efforts to further restrict access to the procedure. the afl-cio is set to vote later this morning on its endorsement for president in the 2024 election. the federation includes more than 12 million working people and 60 national and international unions. in 2020, the group endorsed then candidates biden and harris. joining us now is the president of the afl-cio, liz shuler. good to see you this morning. you have called joe biden the most pro-union president of our lifetime. is there any doubt in your mind that your membership will vote to endorse joe biden again this time around? >> well, absolutely. good morning, willie. we are so excited because, this

morning, we get to start mobilizing union members after this historic vote. we fully expect our general board to make that endorsement this morning. we are a democracy, and so we have been engaging our members, listening to them, and they want someone who will stand up and fight for them. that's exactly what this president has done. he said he wanted to be the most pro union president when he took office, and he has absolutely delivered. >> liz, let's get you to expand upon that. president biden has made it clear how much he believes in the union cause. he appears at events with union workers constantly. in fact, he's got another one coming up this weekend in philadelphia. give us a few specifics as to how you do believe, you and your members believe, he has fought for you guys. >> well, it starts with the american rescue plan and the leadership that he has shown to bring our country through crisis, and making sure that people didn't lose their jobs in

the middle of a pandemic. to, you know, recognize and appreciate that workers were essential. we fast forward to the transformational policies of the administration, with the most productive congress and partnership with president biden and vice president harris to deliver on these historic investments, whether it's the infrastructure investments, the chips and science, the clean energy investments and the inflation reduction act. those are going to create millions, millions of jobs, good union jobs. not to mention, we have a policy for the first time in this country, an industrial policy that is going to bring jobs back to manufacturing. the white house has an office, made in america office in the white house. not to mention the cabinet members that have been out there fighting for working people. secretary cardona refused to cross the picket line just last weekend because of graduate researchers who have been on

strike at the university of washington. i think from whether it's the policy angle, whether it's using the bully pulpit to talk about unions and the importance of unions to our democracy and to this economy, this administration has delivered time and time again. >> liz, elise jordan here. so this is over 60 unions who are going to endorse the president and stand with the president. how are you manning on harnessing that power to the president's readvantage when it comes to organizing for 2024? are there any lessons learned from the 2022 election cycle? >> absolutely. that's what the labor movement does best, is we mobilize on the ground. in this era where there's a lot of misinformation out there, often people feel disconnected from what's happening in washington, we have the ability and the infrastructure to be ou

are to the policies. these investments don't land in communities by chance. they're deliberate and intentional decisions this administration has made. our job will be to connect the dots and show people that we have been -- you know, this economy is doing better. inflation is coming down. the job market is what it is, lowest unemployment in history because of the decisions of this administration. >> well, that vote among your membership starts just over an hour from now, so we will let you run. president of the afl-cio liz shuler, we'll be looking for the results in a couple hours. thank you. great to have you on this morning. >> thank you so much. coming up next, democratic congressman colin allred of texas will be our guest. he is aiming to unseat republican senator ted cruz in next year's election. he joins us live in studio to talk about that bid next on "morning joe." . i gotta wrap this commercial,

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it's 10 minutes before the top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." republicans in congress who are investigating an alleged bribe between president biden and a foreign national are now admitting their so-called evidence may not even exist. take a listen to what senator chuck grassley of iowa said on monday regarding the alleged evidence and how his colleagues responded. >> these recordings were allegedly kept as a sort of insurance policy for the foreign national in case that he got into a tight spot. the 1023 also indicates that then vice president joe biden may have been involved, employing hunter biden.

>> i can confirm they were listed in the 1020 that the fbi redacted. we don't know if they are legit. we know the foreign national claims he has them. >> this oligarch was a high-ranking member or owner of barisma? >> that's exactly right. >> have you had any contact with him? >> unfortunately, nobody has had any contact with him for the last three years. >> they are grasping. it's in the 1023. but we don't know if it exists. this has been the distraction all week in the shadows of this indictment and arraignment of

their leader. joining us now, a democratic member of the new republican-led house company on the so-called weaponization of the federal government. congressman colin allred of texas. he announced a run for u.s. senate to challenge republican ted cruz in his state. want to talk about that in a moment. first, respond to this. you are on this committee. is there any there there? let me just ask the question. >> this is a smear first and confirm later. we have seen this from this congress where really when they are talking about the weaponization of government, this is the weaponization of government. >> that's what they are doing. >> you take some allegation that may or may not have any existence and you just put it out there and later you can retract it. >> when you are talking, do they know they're doing that and it's sort of like snicker, snicker, this is what we are doing?

>> they know. they know. these guys -- no one believes joe biden is on the take. okay? joe never had any money until he wrote a book about his son dying. i think they know that. these are deeply cynical people. >> yeah, yeah. hard to work with them? >> sometimes. you have to find common ground where you can. some of the folks, particularly on that weaponization committee, are among the very worst of our i think actors in washington. so maybe not those folks. there are some that we can still work with. >> willie? >> congressman, good morning. it's great to have you on the show. i'm curious for your take. we are not surprised by the lengths to which some republicans will go to defend donald trump. on this with the mar-a-lago documents case, to have the speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy, sort of excuse away and say, well, the guy took some nuclear secrets, there was war planning in there. what about hillary clinton's

server? i guess you can't be surprised. you work alongside them. on something this grave and this serious, how do you deal with those people who are kind of just waving away somebody who steals nuclear secrets? >> i still am surprised, even after all these years. i still hope folks who say they are serious about national security, who i think in other areas of their political careers have been serious about national security, will actually stick to that. this is a case about national security. we had some of our nation's most closely guarded secrets that anyone could have walked in and taken a picture of and walked away. we know that there were foreign agency trying to get access to mar-a-lago. we know there was a focus on trying to infiltrate that place. there was a chinese spy arrested not long ago trying to go there. i am still surprised, even after all this time, that some of the folks who i think had maybe spent a career building up

credibility in national security are willing to throw it away for one guy. >> you announced your bid for senate against ted cruz. you raised $2 million. beto o'rourke had to raise a ton of money, i think, upwards of $80 million, for his bid. he ended up losing by three points. what's different this time? how are you going to win in texas? >> texans can't afford six more years of ted cruz. i've had a lot of titles. i've been an nfl linebacker, congressman, most important is dad. i don't want my boys to have ted cruz as their senator the next six years. that's why i decided to get in this race. he led the insurrection. i was there 50 feet away when he objected to the results in arizona. what's the junior senator from texas doing caring about that? i don't know. our state had a freeze and they were freezing in the dark.

he decided that was a good time to go on vacation to cancun. we know who this guy is. he is looking out for himself. i have a different story. >> what about the issues of guns and abortion? will they play a large role in your campaign? do you think texans are ready for changes on those issues? >> it's interesting you talk about guns. you were talking about uvalde and safer communities. senator john cornyn was one of the driving forces behind that, a texas senator. of course, ted cruz didn't vote for that, even after what happened in uvalde. i think there are common sense things that texans can agree on, that americans can agree on that we can do to save lives, reduce violence. when it comes to choice and abortion, ted cruz is an extremist. he wants a nationwide ban on all abortions. we are seeing that in texas. it is impacting us right now. there are people saying they don't want to send their daughters to school in texas. our medical schools are suffering from this. it will continue.

there's more stories every day that women who are having medical difficulties or hospitals won't treat them because they are worried about the law. >> exactly. jonathan? >> a significant issue in texas is the border. give us your assessment of where things stand now in the wake of title 42 being repealed. what more, frankly, the biden administration and congress need to do. >> this is something that's been frustrating to me for some time. my family is from brownsville. my grandfather, after serving in the navy, was a customs officer. to me, the border is not a place where you go for a political backdrop. it's where people live. we have not supported our border communities properly. that's regardless -- there's flows that come and go. the border communities deserve more help. we also have had -- people like ted cruz, folks who know we should do something to reform our immigration system, to have border security as the main

component of that, but to make it easier to process folks, meet the needs of our economy. for 11 years now, ted cruz refused to do that. he wants to go down and act like he is on a safari at the border pointing out what's happening. you are a senator. pass a bill. do something about it. we have a framework in place from president obama and president bush, where we had a bipartisan agreement surrounding what we think it would look like. we have not been able to get that comprehensive reform yet. >> i know this isn't your district, but this out of texas, at least three people have died, more than 50 injured after a tornado hit in northern texas last night. a trailer park took a direct hit. kamr is reporting there's a lot of damage to local businesses. in response to the storm, two texas search and rescue groups have been deployed to assist in the recovery efforts.

any more information on this or your comments? >> obviously, my prayers are with them. this is unfortunately a reality there texas. my first year in congress, we had a tornado rip through my district in dallas. fortunately, we didn't have the fatalities that we are seeing here. this is something we have to deal with in texas. hopefully, we can treat these folks who have been impacted. make sure they get the help they need. >> colin allred of texas, thank you for coming on the show. still ahead on "morning joe," we are digging into the reporting on donald trump's obsession with keeping troves of newspaper clippings and documents with him after leaving the white house. something his aides apparently referred to as his beautiful mind boxes. this as donald trump's defense comes under scrutiny, even by some conservatives, like karl rove, who say trump invited this indictment. we will read from his new piece.

the third hour of "morning joe" starts right now. are you ready? food for everyone. food for everyone. >> former president trump -- >> it's great. food for everybody. what a guy. >> he was arrested and released. he kept everybody's spirits up. >> buying lunch for them. >> food for everybody. local cuban restaurant in miami. >> that's so kind of him. maybe he has been misjudged. >> what do you think? >> i will let you reveal the story. >> nobody ordered anything during his ten minute stop. trump didn't pay for anything. i don't think there was even an offer to do so. >> willie, nobody ordered nothing. nobody paid for nothing. >> there was no paying. >> i know this will shock you coming from donald trump, it was all a scam. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's friday.

june 16. along with joe, willie and me, we have former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department, allyse jordan, richard haas, chuck rosenberg and eugene robinson, along with the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. >> she was able to call that in real time, that trump will pay for absolutely nothing. >> i think decades of experience told her there would be no free food for everyone. as "the miami times" reported yesterday. >> i know. jonathan, i know your reporting and you are hearing from people close to trump, like a lot of us are, growing concern about all of these indictments. as you said yesterday, actually silence around new jersey.

there's a little bit of rumbling there like he's not going to do that, from the trump camp. i'm not so sure about that. >> first of all, you can imagine my absolute -- being stunned donald trump would not follow through and pay people there. that place is very good. versailles is excellent cuban food. there's real concern. forget the check. this is something the president -- the former president and his inner circle have been worried about for a while. he is facing someone now in jack smith who they simply -- they don't know and they feel like they can't intimidate. he is someone who seems immune to what their typical playbook is, the smokescreen and attacks and the assertions of bias. to this point, that's worked. we see that the new jersey thing -- last night i heard from a few people in the trump world saying, we're not sure how real that is. they can't rule it out. they didn't expect all that's happened to this point. we know that it's not just new

york, which they feel fine about. they are deeply concerned about the mar-a-lago documents. they are worried about georgia. >> they are. >> georgia has been the one that's the flashing light for them all along. it's not like that has gone away. that's just probably a few weeks down the road. >> chuck, there are a lot of times where prosecutors have to stretch to prove their cases. a lot of circumstantial evidence. sometimes it's not as strong as they like. you look at that georgia case, they have the tape recordings. you look at the mar-a-lago case, they have got incredible physical evidence. they have him saying things again on audiotape that close him in. they have him saying things in speeches and on sean hannity's show that are admissions of guilt. again, the picture -- so much hard evidence there. really problematic for this guy.

>> i think that's right. when you look at the mar-a-lago case, you have a lot to look at. we have an indictindictment. when you write an indictment -- i have written many of them -- you make sure you can prove every word, every sentence, every paragraph, assuming that's what the prosecutors did here. i assume they did, because they're really good at their jobs. that's going to be a very tough case for mr. trump. as you point out, there are a bunch of different trains on parallel tracks in new york and georgia and perhaps elsewhere. i would also like to underscore something else you said. these federal prosecutors, jack smith and his team, are enormously talented and experienced. first, they are not going to be intimidated by mr. trump or anyone else. second, they are not trying their case in the public sphere. it's in a courtroom, in a federal court in florida. third, they are really good at

what they do. i won a lot of cases as a prosecutor. i was remarkably mediocre. what makes the difference is that you have the facts and the law. when you have the facts and the law, you don't have to be a gifted advocate. you just have to be competent. you have to be able to stand up in court and introduce your evidence. if you can do that and you got it, then you have a strong case. >> chuck, on behalf of everyone, we give you the false modesty of i'm just a poor country lawyer. you are not mediocre. >> i can attest to that. >> you sir, you are the best and brightest. we don't know what's going to happen. this is what scares trump. right? all we heard was, there's so many leaks coming out of -- which there wasn't. smith isn't -- no, he wasn't.

we were all surprised by miami. trump was surprised by miami. if they were surprised by miami, they start hearing about new jersey, they don't know. it's got him worried. this january 6 case, getting more real by the moment. again, the most damning thing for trump, along with the tapes and all the evidence january 6 committee drummed up, is all of the people testifying against donald trump are all people donald trump hired. >> how would he hire an administration? >> this next reporting might seem comical, it does raise the question that we will show a little bit later on, mitt romney and others in the republican party, who have asked the question as to why. why did he hold on to these classified documents? one week after the latest indictment of donald trump,

there's new reporting that would poke holes in one of the former president's defenses, despite claiming earlier in the week he, quote, hadn't had a chance to go through all the boxes he took with him to mar-a-lago, former white house aides tell "the new york times," trump was unusually attached to those boxes and their contents. throughout his presidency and after leaving office. >> are you saying he was unusually attached to those tta boxes. >> you usually get attached to other human beings. he is attached to those boxes. >> he loved them. he was obsessed with them. the staffers reportedly referred to the boxes as trump's, quote, beautiful mind material, in reference to the movie about mathematician john nash.

>> willie, i don't think they meant that as a compliment. >> no. >> anyway, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia as an adult. he covered his walls with newspaper clippings and documents. he thought he was hired by the u.s. government to crack a russian code. >> john nash, a brilliant man. but deeply, deeply troubled, as russell crowe's portrayal showed us. two people familiar with the practice say, trump was meticulous about putting things in specific boxes and could identify what was in the boxes immediately around him. the former president also reportedly had a habit of bringing documents with him from the west wing up to the white house residence and went around his own staff's system for tracking that material. since leaving the white house, sources say, trump maintains that behavior, even filling up new boxes, when those close to

him have suggested he condense his collection or review it for classified materials. >> why? >> this is coming from people close to donald trump. people who have witnessed this behavior. that was the running joke, i guess, it was inside the white house, that this guy is like john nash in "a beautiful mind" traveling with his documents, keeping his boxes, taking them upstairs and as the team points out, he was warned by members of his staff, don't take that stuff with you. that stuff is classified. that stuff stays here. he knew not only what was at mar-a-lago was classified, but this goes back to when he was president, according to the sources. >> two things that are important to donald trump. two things and only two things. not his family. not connections with people. it's money and fame. you ask why. we will find out why. >> money and power. the power because it leads to money. >> right.

>> this goes back to what i was saying before. who are the people testifying? these aren't libs. these aren't people -- these are people that work for trump, that are around trump. they are mocking trump. they are testifying, because i guess they can justify to their friends and family, i'm going to work for donald trump. they can't justify going to federal prison for them. they are all talking. >> this is so bizarre, just the handling of the classified documents, even from the president. you have been around highly sensitive documents. the idea that he could just take something from the oval office to the white house and it wouldn't be handled by the proper confidential assistant, it is so bizarre that so many holds were let go and that he was essentially hoarding. you hear horrible stories of hoarding of animals. he was doing the same thing with

the classified documents. >> hoarding of nuclear secrets. >> let's go to richard. >> it's funny but not funny. deadly smirking at the bizarre behavior. >> a staff member took a picture of that and sent it to another staff member. >> a lot of documents. >> when you start thinking about the fact -- i talked about what would happen if i went to a briefing, took a classified document back to my office, the fbi would call me in 15 minutes. you were around classified documents all the time. if you took one home, if you -- we are talking about one or two documents that people -- the fbi will charge them. this guy, boxes and boxes and boxes of america's -- some of america's close -- most closely guarded secrets. >> when the briefer came to

brief you, he or she would carry the briefcase. open up in your office. you would be handed the documents. you would read the documents. you would hand them back. they go back in the briefcase. the idea that these things are thrown in boxes and mixed with sports photographs -- >> i want you to stop. for people that haven't been in government service, people -- again, people that haven't had experience with handling even one classified document -- i have talked about the other day about briefings i got in the 1990s that i still haven't told anybody about just because i was told not to tell anybody. >> that's the way it goes. >> unless i called somebody and said, can i ask you about this portion of north korea's nuclear program or about iran's assets in this country or that country? have you declassified that? not only me, you, you working with the state department, nobody would imagine doing that.

this is why this is so grotesque, what kevin mccarthy and some republicans are doing, because they would never do it, because they understand, it's not just a crime. it is the scale of the crime. this is a tsunami of crimes. regarding a united states president and some of our most sacred classified secrets. >> look, we all dealt with hundreds, even thousands of classified documents in the course of a week or a month. some were kept in miles. the most sensitive are immediately back to the briefers who came every morning to give you -- the president's daily brief. he had a couple dozen officials. i could imagine the odd document being filed in the wrong place. i had to do document searches. >> it does happen. >> but that's the odd document. >> it gets returned. >> absolutely. what's so bizarre about there is the sensitivity -- these are not

things that may be confident shall, we are talking about stuff at the top of the security food chain. limited distribution documents. >> people are thinking about it while you are talking. it is also not like biden or pence where somebody mispacked something and sent something to one of their annexes or offices or even homes by mistake and then they did a search, they found it, they sent it back. this is a guy that was rummaging through boxes filled with nuclear secrets -- >> and then -- >> knew what was in those boxes -- >> weird. >> refused to return them. talk about proving intent 100 times over. as andrew mccarthy said yesterday, there's no defense. he is talking -- this is what he says and why he says it.

>> first of all, we thank tj for putting the saxophone under

that. that was actually hugh's show. he said time and again, no defense. this is andrew mccarthy, a conservative. he defended donald trump a great deal. he didn't on the election rigging. same with hugh hewitt. like so many other republicans that have supported donald trump in the past, they are saying, he has no defense. >> that's what was so damning about the indictment. what is the scale of this? this wasn't the exception. this was the rule. that's one thing. second of all, that's where the obstruction charge is so important. if he had coughed them up, we would be in -- we wouldn't -- >> we wouldn't have there conversation. >> he passed on that. his attorneys offered. >> i think politically, that's the most important point. voters really aren't going to differentiate why this is so

different from what other officials have done. even though they should, because it's much a greater scale. it's just the fact that he was offered an out as a privileged, powerful person offered an out that i wouldn't have gotten, you wouldn't have gotten, that you wouldn't have gotten, and he could have given them back. he was an idiot. secretary of state antony blinken is getting ready to make a trip to china. we will get the latest from beijing amid strange relations between the two countries. "morning joe" is coming right back. imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations... ...in adults 60 and older... ...and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure.

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former government w. bush aide karl rove is out with a new article.

that is the way donald trump viewed them, as mementos. as keepsakes. if you read through the indictment, it's not just "the new york times" reporting on this. trump's assistants says he wants those on air force 1 with him. he incorrectly believed they belonged to him personally. >> in addition to being a bad person, donald trump is a deeply weird person. you remember the point in the indictment where he is talking to evan corcoran -- the pluck

'em out conversation. he is saying, i don't want anybody going through my boxes, i don't want you going through the boxes. my precious. it's like a hoarding instinct about these documents, some sort of weird security blanket, some sort of -- it boosts his ego and reminds him that he actually somehow became president of the united states. i don't know what it is about it, but it's pathological in addition to being criminal. >> also, karl rove goes on to say, this is all donald trump's fault. republicans know it's donald trump's fault. and yet, they are acting like the worst progressives that they have contempt for, trying to

de-fund the police. karl rove makes a point, hey, idiots, de-funding the fbi, that's not any better than de-funding san francisco's police department. >> right. exactly. they are taking these crazy positions that they don't believe in, in order to not offend donald trump's base. they think that their political careers are over if they offend the guy. so they stick with him inexplicably because he is facing felony charges. there will be more felony charges. this is the guy they have decided they are going to stake their party's future on. i think that's a political mistake including being a tragedy for the country. they are not profiles in courage. >> chuck, it's hard not to chuckle a little bit when we

hear about him hoarding the boxes and not letting anybody have them. are we underestimating the gravity of the situation, calling these documents mementos? it seems to me they are more than mementos. there's a lot of circumstantial evidence and things around the edges, family connections to saudi arabia, money changing hands, large amounts to family members. the documents might have been not only highly classified and dangers for americans serving this country, but expensive if you are in the mood to sell them. >> if donald trump were in the mood to sell them at some point. >> yeah, i think that's right. two things. first, what you are talking about goes to motive. motive is always interesting. if you can prove it it helps a

jury understand why a defendant did what a defendant was alleged to have done. you don't need it. the government doesn't have to show he wanted to monetize these documents or he wanted to use it in some other nefarious way. they just have to show, as the statute requires, that he had the stuff and he unlawfully retained it. by the way, point number two, elise and richard referred to this, the obstruction charges make that so much easier for the government. to prove intent, you have to crawl into someone's mind. i can imagine -- eugene is right, mr. trump is a weird guy. crawling into his mind would be a really uncomfortable place to go. but the obstruction charges permit you to do that. they help the government meet the burden to show that the retention was unlawful and purposeful and not by accident or mistake. when you take these two things together, the unlawful retention on one hand, obstruction on the other, it would be nice to have

motive. but as a legal matter, you don't need it. by the way, if he was trying to sell this stuff, if he was trying to monetize it, if foreign governments were getting it to help the trump family, the trump organization make more dough, i think we would see other charges. i'm confident we would. they are not there yet. doesn't mean they don't get there. but they are not there yet. interesting to talk about. but as a legal matter, not something the government has to prove. >> richard, i'm going to get to you in one second. jonathan, it's important that we expand out on what mika said. first of all, jared kushner got a couple billion dollars for his fund from the saudis. there's absolutely no evidence, nobody has suggested there's any evidence of connection between jared and donald trump on this money. in fact, all the reporting i have gotten -- i'm curious what you heard -- is that donald trump was enraged that kushner

got $2 billion, as he would say, his fund got $2 billion, off of his name. >> off of the president's name. >> off the presidency. that's one thing. the second thing though is, i was starting to think like mika that perhaps this whole shtick that we are thinking is he is a strange dude, why is he keeping this so he can hug boxes, we have said from the beginning -- today is the eighth anniversary of donald trump coming down the escalator. this is all about money. if you are trying to figure out donald trump's motive, whatever it is, we have been saying for eight years, it's all about money. i'm not -- we have absolutely no evidence that he was selling this information to anybody. but i would never -- i would never say, he was just doing this to hug the boxes. there's ever reason to believe, given his past, that there would

be a possibility that he might trade this information if not directly for money, maybe for access, maybe just so he can make contact and build a hotel in this place or that place. not saying he did it. but we would be foolish to think he is just keeping all of this information because he is a weird, quirky dude. >> first on kushner, there's frostiness there about that deal. we have seen that jared and ivanka have nothing to do with trump's re-election campaign. that's number one. as far as this, some people in trump's orbit have tried to explain the boxes story with the theory we were talking about. he is a weird guy, he is a pack rat. he is so addicted to press clippings. he cares about money and attention and power. they are all intertwined. this is someone who, of course, would put up fake "time" magazine covers at his golf club. when people would come to his office, they would show him

clippings from a decade past. this is -- some of the documents, the version that trump people are saying, is more of the same. things he cares about. they reinforce he is important, that people are talking about him, they reinforce he has power and he doesn't want to give those things up. he had these secrets that no one else did. he thinks he is deserving of them. you are right, of course, we always have to wonder if there's a financial implication. as you say, there's no evidence that's the case. at the least, having these things increases his fame, notoriety and gets more people to buy golf club memberships, to donate to his next effort or campaign. looking under the hood, it's not too hard to spot a financial incentive to anything he does. >> right. richard? >> i'm struck by the difference what's happening in the uk and what's happening here. in the uk, you have -- they were prepared to suspend boris

johnson for 90 days. he was going to lose his privileges. he would have had to run. he would have been rejected by his people, basically pushed him to resign. the difference between the way the conservative party stood up to reject someone who basically lied to parliament, one of your most fundamental duties, betrayed his position and then here, kevin mccarthy, still standing by him rather than standing up to him, to me it's not just about donald trump, it's how he has infected the republican party. >> a poison. >> think about the difference. you have boris johnson this trouble for lying about parties he threw. here, donald trump in trouble for lying about stealing nuclear secrets and kevin mccarthy is defending him. the speaker of the house is defending a guy and trying to turn it on other people for donald trump stealing nuclear secrets and keeping them and lying about that. >> and republicans become weaker as they tether themselves more to this train wreck.

they can't stand separately. so now you have a field of 13 republicans vying for the nomination and trump is just running away from it and probably would still get the nomination from a prison cell at this stage in the game. no one is willing to attack him. if you don't attack any of this, then you are just giving him free reign. one of our next guests is taking a look at the history of the espionage act in the wake of donald trump's federal indictment. we will have that ahead on "morning joe." [ tires screeching ] jordana, easy on the gas. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break.

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for the first time since the united states shot down a suspected chinese spy balloon off the coast of south carolina, top diplomats from the two countries will meet this weekend. later today, secretary of state

antony blinken will head to beijing. let's bring in janis mackey frayer live from beijing. it's good to see you. how did this meeting come together? what do we expect to see between the leaders today? >> reporter: high stakes and low expectations. but it's on. secretary of state getting on a plane tonight. he will be here for meetings on sunday and monday in what is seen as a bid to try to salvage this relationship. in many ways, it's the reset of the reset, because this is a visit that was supposed to happen four months ago and was called off by the secretary of state when that chinese balloon was shot down. the relationship was already having a particularly bumpy year then. so the expectation or the hope is that they can -- both sides can show that they can manage

this relationship responsibly. so in that sense, even going through the motions has some utility. there are actually very few details about who he is going to meet and when. but we know that he will get time with china's president on monday. it's just a matter of when. incidentally, president xi had a private meeting today with bill gates. it's very rare that the chinese president will meet with a business leader. he said to him, and i quote, you are the first american friend to visit me this year. there's no shortage of issues for either side to discuss. you name it, it's probably on the table. tariffs, taiwan, ai, american detainees, human rights, confrontation in the south china sea, fentanyl. from both sides i have talked to over the last couple of days, there's the sense it's best to

view this as the first stage of a process where each side is trying to explore the limits of the other side and how they can proceed with some sort of relationship without making it look like they are softening on their positions. it actually started a couple of days ago with a phone call between the secretary of state and the foreign minister here, former u.s. ambassador -- former ambassador to the u.s. judging by the readouts, it wasn't a very warm conversation. there's a lot of very careful language that's being used on both sides about trying to manage competition and keeping the lines of communication open. so overall, there will be no breakthroughs from this. but the very fact that they are having this visit is being seen as a sign that they don't want the relationship to unravel further. it seems there were several risks of that happening. we're not sure if we should call it a thaw.

but maybe just enough to get the people in the same room at the same time and the sense this could pave the way for more high level cabinet visits and perhaps reset relations in that sense, too. >> nbc's janis mackey frayer in beijing ahead of some important days there. richard haas, talk us through how this did come together given everything we have seen in the last few weeks with the destroyer coming too close to call, the military jet crossing in front of our planes. how important are the next few days in beijing? >> sometimes in this diplomacy business, you have ambitions to achieve things. i think the united states and china, it's more what you can avoid. the two countries are trying to establish a floor. this is a relationship that has been in freefall. from the u.s. point of view, probably the immediate priority is to get the chinese to put

some pressure on russia to continue not to help them in ukraine. i think we also would like to set some guardrails on taiwan. china has a very different set of priorities. this meeting is happening against the backdrop of a fast deterioraing economy. xi is interested in the commerce department, trade, investment. china -- youth unemployment is high. >> is this -- the doors over the past several months swung wide open for american businessmen, businesswomen and business leaders. they are still playing coy when it comes to diplomats. >> they don't want talks. they believe we will be scared by an incident that might get us to back off support to taiwan. they are doing nothing to reassure us on the military side. the meeting with bill gates, another signal. what they are interested in is

help for the chinese -- they don't want u.s. sanctions, u.s. technology restrictions. the expression these days, joe, is we want to build a high fence around a small yard. that's what the treasury secretary yellen is talking about. the real debate, how big should the yard be? how restrictive are we going to be on china? what xi is worried about is we will be restrictive on technology and the like. that's what this is about. that's their agenda is economic. our agenda is ukraine and taiwan. not quite ships passing in the night. but there is not a major breakthrough. coming up, our conversation with actress and singer rita wilson. what she had to say about her brand-new single "little black dress" and her new movie "asteroid city." "morning joe" is coming right back.

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♪ little black dress ♪ ♪ hanging on the back of the bathroom door ♪ ♪ she's getting ready ♪ ♪ he's picking her up tonight at 8:30 ♪ ♪ she's nervous, little black dress ♪ that was a clip from actress and singer rita wilson's new single entitled "little black dress." wilson is a cast member of the star-studded new film "asteroid city." the comedy is about parents accompanied their space-obsessed kids to a convention in a fictional desert town from which the film borrows the title.

soon, they bond more than they expected when forced to quarantine together after receiving an unexpected visitor from the skies. joining us now, actress and musical artist, rita wilson. i love "little black dress." >> thank you so much. >> it's so vulnerable. what's the inspiration behind it? >> it is for me because i love clothes. i could look at clothes i have and have memories for every single piece. it's very hard tore me to let go of them. >> yes! >> i keep the special ones. i started thinking about those things. i can say, i remember talking to this person and what we talked about, what we ate that night. >> first job interview. first date. >> everything. this was sort of what would happen if you told the story of a little black dress. >> i absolutely love it. the inspiration behind your music comes from where? >> well, anyplace. that was the title. it started with a title, just

that idea. then your mind starts wandering. i write -- that song i wrote with lori mckenna and phil barton. i like writing with other people. i don't know. it's less isolating than being by yourself. >> i follow you on instagram. >> you do? >> i'm obsessed. >> i need to follow back. >> you will? >> this is a big day. >> it's like "match game." >> i have to go over my account and see if it's good enough. the duets. go ahead. >> i was going to ask about the duets. it's a staggering collection of icons and musicians. smokey robinson, keith urban, josh grow ban. the list goes on and on. how did you decide who you want to sing with? is it like a wish list that you

put out there? >> it's like a dream. my coproducer matt rollings produced willie nelson's album and won a couple grammys. i thought that's a good guy to work with. because of his relationship with willie, he had willie to come on. he was the first person. when somebody like willie joins in, everybody says, oh, it must be good. >> extraordinary artists here. but also the songs, massachusetts, i can hear it in my head you and leslie odom junior singing that. one that i can hear really, jackson brown "let it be me." we have a clip of you talking a little bit more about working with jackson brown. >> jackson, to me, is one of the first artists that i just fell in love with. his voice, his writing was so

personal and so emotional. to be able to now express it in a way with a full band was really like a dream come true. ♪♪ ♪ now and forever, let it be me ♪ >> so beautiful. >> way to go. >> thank you. jackson is one of my song writing heros. his voice when he came into the studio to see and you first are hearing him on the mic, it's one of those experiences that is almost surreal, like i can't believe it's that person that i love. >> something about your voices together and that song, something is happening there.

so beautiful. >> thank you. >> these people that you performed with and also you're performing, it doesn't just happen. you have to hone that craft. >> i have to say that any of the writing i've done, i always cowrite. i have to give major credit to the songwriters i've worked with, because it's like a master class. the writers down in nashville, the writers in the u.k. or sweden, they have enormous craft and they work at that craft all the time so that it looks easy, but it's not. you know, if you think about it, it's story telling in three minutes. as they say in nashville, three chords of the truth. how do you capture that and put it all into one song that tells a story? for me, growing up, i loved the beatles. she's leaving home. what was happening there?

that story. no, don't let her go with that guy. as a kid, that was impressive. my mom was greek. she always had music going on in the car and at home, and she would teach me about stories. >> talk about how long you've been singing. you don't just get to this point where you can go, hey jackson, let's do this thing. >> i have to say i started song writing 11 years ago all because of this one woman songwriter who asked me what i wanted to do. i said, i would give anything to be able to write music like you. at that point, it was like

sparklers and fire crackers went off in my head, like what? i could say something? she said, i'll write your first songs with you, and she did. that opened up the whole world. >> the single is called "little black dress." check that out and now and forever duets. i've had the privilege of seeing "asteroid city." it's exactly what you would expect from wes anderson. how do you describe the wes anderson experience to someone who hasn't lived through it? >> you enter into the wes anderson world, which is such a beautiful bubble of creativity and in some ways because he's so prepared and knows exactly what he wanted, it's liberating in a way. so you go into the picture at their disposal. everything that he hires is at

the top of their game. like, you know you're in the company of people who really excel at what they do. it's very nice. you kind of hand yourself over. >> thank you for coming on. "asteroid city" premiers on june 23rd. you can listen to "little black dress" on all music platforms. >> you can also follow her on instagram. >> oh my god, i'm so excited. rita wilson, thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." >> we'll be right back with much more "morning joe. ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming)

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it's mine. >> john's always been a little weird. >> bing bing, bong bong. >> he was doing code-breaking and it was eyes only. >> donald trump's very, very large brain. >> lately he's become so much more agitated. >> i did everything right and they indicted me. these boxes were containing all types of personal belongings. i had every right to have these documents. >> donald trump and his beautiful minds material referred to by former white house aides who tell the "new york times" he was unusually attached to those boxes and their contents. >> he loved those boxes. he was drawn in a weird way to those boxes. they called them the beautiful mind box. >> it's a combination of john

nash and dustin hoffman in rainman. >> there's no rainman there. >> my boxes, my boxes. >> why does he cling to his boxes and risk now going to jail when he could have just given the boxes out. your lawyer says we really need to give these back. we could get a settlement here. and you say, no, i need my boxes? >> we talked about this. at first a lot of people were saying oh he's just unusually attached to it. john heilemann, i had some people that worked with him saying he just doesn't keep stuff for no reason. he kept it either for money or he kept it so he could have power other america or trade on that information. we're not saying money for

whatever, but access on future deals for information. i mean, there are a lot of people in a lot of countries that would love to have the information that donald trump stole from the white house. >> also, i've had a lifelong attachment to my stash boxes, but that's a different situation. here's the thing -- >> tobacco. >> that is correct. i heard this debate earlier on the show. i always reject the false binary. is trump a weirdo, or is he trying to monetize the secrets? it could be both. if you read all these biographies of him, it's that thing of, you know, he often doesn't have a long-term plan. he's thinking about, how am i

going to sell it. no. it's this could be valuable to me later. i could make some money from it. >> that's the way he thinks. >> here's something that at some point might come in handy. it doesn't matter whether it's against the law or inappropriate or unethical. he's just, it's mine now and i'm going to hold onto it for dear life, because at some point i might be able to use it for my benefit. >> katty kay, if you want to know how he thinks and how he plans ahead, read the first two pages of "the art of the deal." what he says is, i never make any plans. i just go into the office and i start calling people and i see what happens. time and time again, we've seen donald trump doesn't really plan ahead. he just saw those boxes. he knew the material was something that gave him power, that would help him cling onto the white house and he stole

them. he stole the nuclear secrets. the more important information, the more he wanted it. he just stole the documents. maybe there wasn't a specific plan, but just generally this is how the guy works. >> there's a chaos theory. he had a chaos theory of business and government, which is why the country was exhausted after four years of it and many people are exhausted thinking of another four years of it. i remember during the presidency waking up in the morning thinking, wow, what's going to hit us today? it comes from the fact that there isn't a plan or strategy. in conversations he had with the pac guy and the two people he showed these documents to, there is a kind of brag a rights element and that need to kind of show off. that seems like a fairly good

psychological explanation for the obsession. >> also with us former special assistant to president biden and press secretary to the first lady michael arosa. the thing is also, he said they were my boxes. he specifically kept people away. again it's not just that he snatched the boxes. he knew enough to lie to the fbi, to lie to the doj, to lie to his own lawyers. like, he knew what he was doing was breaking the law. he admitted it on tape. >> aides would be puzzled when he would bring those boxes up to the residence or when he would go on a trip, meaning, he's bringing america's secrets

overseas to another capital in many cases. he was possessive of them, "my boxes." he would go through them occasionally. when something had been out of place, he'd be able to tell that someone else had rifled through and moved something. he was that attuned to the contents of these boxes. maybe some of them were momentos, maybe some of them are nuclear secrets. they are government property that he shouldn't have had. we had him confessing repeatedly that he knew he shouldn't have had it and he no longer had the ability to declassify them. motive doesn't matter. a crime is a crime is a crime. >> the staff secretary's office travels with the president wherever he goes and is in charge of all the paperwork. he seemed to know what was in the boxes because he would say i want this box and that box to go with us on this particular trip.

it's very unusual. president biden is not bringing boxes on air force one. >> president biden hasn't said much. the first lady, a little bit. >> she has. >> tell us about it. >> i think at fund-raisers sometimes people feel a little bit more empowered, because as tv people know, there's no camera, there's no tv and you feel like you can be a little bit more candid when it's even a print reporter. look, i think people forget 1987 was probably the most scarring experience she'd ever. she was ten years into being married to joe biden. she saw her friend from the senate and her husband go through an embarrassment. she went through the pain of that first '87 campaign.

he didn't run for president for another 20 years, but she learned how to take punches and how to throw them. i wouldn't underestimate the personal hatred she probably has for this man, who has attacked and smeared and lied about her son. >> husband and his family. the "new york times" has new reporting about former president trump's plans to go after president biden by using the justice department if trump wins reelection next year. the former president made this pledge earlier this week after his arraignment in the classified documents case. >> i will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the united states of america, joe biden. >> wow. the "new york times" points out, quote, mr. trump's promise fits into a larger movement on the right to gut the fbi, overhaul a

justice department conservatives claim has been weaponized against them. >> by electing donald trump, by sending a letter ten days before the election reopening an investigation, which should have never been sent. yeah. weaponize it against hillary clinton. also, by leaking a different story from the new york office of the fbi every other day about hillary clinton and these jackasses are now saying, oh, it was weaponized against us. no, it wasn't! the fbi elected donald trump, and donald trump even admitted that after he got elected in private conversations said he would never have gotten elected if things didn't break exactly how they'd broken. everything lined up with the letter perfectly.

listen, it's a bit more eloquent in the original greek, but i've got to brush up on my greek. >> the other thing that's funny about it is, you weaponize the doj and the fbi. now trump says we're going to go after joe biden with the fbi and the doj. nobody recognizes the obvious hypocrisy of accusing the democrats of weaponizing the fbi. it's crazy. >> this story is not breaking news. i hate to beat this horse, but i'm going to again. ten days before the 2020 election, donald trump was screaming at his attorney general to arrest his opponent joe biden and the entire family. he was saying it publicly, that barr needed to arrest joe biden and joe biden's family.

>> i don't understand the argument, because the investigation into hunter biden started under bill barr, the attorney general, trump's attorney general. and joe biden kept trump's hand-picked u.s. attorney investigating his son. he didn't fire him. we know exactly what trump would have done if the shoe was on the other foot. in fact, he did fire u.s. attorneys who were investigating him. joe biden, who believes in the integrity of an independent justice system, actually kept trump's u.s. attorney investigating his own son. how could that be weaponizing the justice department? >> also, let's just pick up on our theme of the week here. republicans are starting to figure this out. they go, well, what about hillary? hold on a second. comey said no reasonable prosecutor would ever indict her under these facts, and then donald trump's justice

department for four years proved that trump went to him in 2017 saying let's do a special counsel, let's indict hillary. trump's justice department, led by sessions, nothing there. 2018, he rages, wants it again. mr. president, nothing there. don mcgahn tells him, can't do it, nothing there. so these people that say there's like a two-tiered justice system, yeah, exactly. barack obama and donald trump on this side. well, there is no other side actually, is there? there's not a two-tiered system. trump's administration and justice department and obama's justice department both said nothing there with hillary. this forces them to look at donald trump and blame him. as karl rove said, it's his fault. >> the white house has kind of

been a little bit silent on this. they're letting the story evolve and i think they're trying to stay above the fray. but when democrats do that, they usually get eaten. >> it worked for michael dukakis, though. >> are they going to fight back? >> the group is running the most aggressive super pac holding the gop accountable. poor jim co-her. he can't even put on a show like dan burton could. there's nothing there. they keep embarrassing themselves. this time around i think they're going to see an aggressive

reaction from hunter and his team, because he's sick of taking this. the white house plays it pretty safe. i can imagine they will want to try to stay above the fray. they need to play by the rules that exist, not the rules pre-trump. >> we just showed a picture of larry, mo and curly. a lot of democrats are saying enough, enough, come on, fight back. i'm not saying they need to fight back. somebody out there needs to be saying, wait a second, trump's own justice department didn't move on hillary clinton. there is no equivalency, moral or legal equivalency here. this is trump stealing nuclear secrets. it's something nobody around the

white house has done. >> that's exactly right. the president himself is not the right messenger, certainly not right now considering his own classified documents case is still being investigated as well as the looming hunter biden decision. he has said he wants a bright red line between doj and the white house. at a certain point, a number of democrats have told me this week, they stressed not yet. let the republicans burn themselves down for a while, don't get in their way. but at a certain point there will need to be some leading voices in the party pointing out just how wrong this is, what an unfortunate american moment this is that the republican frontrunner is under two indictments, more to come. this is nothing like hillary clinton. this is nothing like other scandals the republicans are trying to play what about-ism with. there's a building sense that

certainly by next year's election someone needs to be out there saying these two things are not the same and don't vote for donald trump because he's probably going to jail. >> mitt romney definitely started that yesterday, saying that donald trump did this to himself and there is a looming question that makes it very different than the other cases out there where biden and others give them right back. trump kept them. the question is, and we've had a lot of fun with the beautiful minds metaphor here, it's a scary question. why? why don't we play mitt romney and then we'll talk on the other side. >> i'm angry. the country is going to go through tumult as a result of one thing, president trump didn't turn over military documents when he was asked to do so. all he had to do was hand them in. i'm sure his counsel told him, hand the documents in,

particularly when the subpoena came. but for some reason, he decided not to. he held onto them. why? that's the question. why is the country going to have to go through all this angst and tumult? why didn't he just turn the documents in? >> that is the question. yes, the country is going to go through tumult. it already has, but it could get worse. >> yeah. yesterday we had the indictment of jack teixeira, the young army officer who put all of those national security documents online. the justice department in the indictment said retaining and distributing and mishandling classified documents is a threat to america's national security. clearly it's a different case. he put them online on a gaming website. trump didn't do that. he kept them in boxes, but he showed them to people who shouldn't have seen them. we know chinese operatives have

tried to get into mar-a-lago. you don't think mar-a-lago wasn't ground zero for foreign espionage efforts? why he did it, we don't know, but the risk to america's national security. they're not happy about this. they're not happy that documents that potentially put their human intelligence sources at risk was sitting in a room in mar-a-lago where a very smart spy wouldn't have had to work very hard to get in and out of those storage places or the shower or wherever it was. >> they're like in the ballroom and the bathroom and the storage closet. >> he kept wondering why all the foreign nationals kept asking to use his restroom. >> he talked about them a lot and he talked about knowing the process of declassification. they're got him from every angle. this couldn't be more serious

for trump, but also serious for the country. the judge overseeing donald trump's classified documents case, judge aileen cannon, required all attorneys in the case to contact the justice department about getting security clearances, giving them until tuesday of next week to file a, quote, notice of compliance. that includes all defense attorneys for trump and his aide walt nauta. judge cannon wrote the instructions apply to any, quote, forthcoming attorneys as well, but she did not set any additional trial dates. he has two lawyers right now on this, right? >> two lawyers, yeah. >> joining us now, professor of law at the northwestern university school of law, heidi

controsa. you would be the person to talk to. >> which is why we have you on the show. let's talk about the process. talk about just some of the obstacles to a speedy trial because of the need to figure out a way to manage these sensitive documents in a trial setting. >> well, so that is something that would be handled through the classified information procedure act. that's a little bit outside my area of expertise. that's more so a matter of criminal procedure, where my expertise is more in the espionage act and the secrecy element. >> i did have a quick question for you. about the espionage act, how does this play into it?

>> just to finish that thought real quickly, there are indeed procedures that are specifically tailored for dealing with trials where classified information is at issue. as for the espionage act, i suppose i would just start with the notion that this is a remarkably broad law. in the past, i and others have expressed concern about the breadth of the espionage act in so far as it's used to target sources who leak information to the media often in the public interest. interestingly, and as i wrote about recently in law fair, donald trump's own administration prosecuted a record for a single term president five media sources for leaking information under the espionage act. this was not a matter of the justice department acting at

arm's length from the president. donald trump himself was constantly browbeating the department publicly saying we have to protect classified information, go after those leakers. and now it's the breadth of the act in which trump finds himself caught, because the act punishes any willful dissemination or retention and failure to return upon request of what the act calls national defense information, which has been defined by courts to mean information that's closely-held, that's meant to be kept secret by the government, and that could potentially damage the united states. and all this required is willfulness. you don't have to intend to hurt the united states, which i know is something that a lot of trump allies are arguing you have to

be a spy. that's absolutely not true. it's disproven by trump's own record of prosecutions when he was president. >> elise jordan has a question. elise went to law school. >> no, i did not go to law school. >> you just went to yale. you just play one on tv. >> i always wanted to go to law school. i should have taken the unearned credit. when we have someone like heidi who's actually an expert, we should ask her. it seems like there's such a great difference in how these low-level offenses by, frankly, people who are not well known at all in the public, the repercussions they face versus when it's someone like a general petraeus or a sandy berger and

now a donald trump. why the gulf? and is there any hope that perhaps this time it will be more equitable? >> that's absolutely right. as you know, there's long been criticism by myself and many others about what appears to be the two-tiered justice system where it's the little guys who really get the book thrown at them. because trump is charged under the espionage act with willful retention as opposed to dissemination, there have been a number of stories, including one that i saw recently in the "new york times" recounting the number of kind of lower level folks who have gotten several years in jail just within the last five or six years, including folks who were prosecuted under the justice department in the trump administration for doing things like bringing classified documents home either in some

cases it appeared to be for no apparent reason, sort of like what we now know about the trump case, in acouple of cases to do some work at home on nights and weekends, and got substantial jail time. it's a somewhat different snare, but it's somewhat relevant to this case, which is the scenario in which you have media sources, people like reality winner, who was a government contractor and said i keep hearing donald trump tell the media that there was no russian hacking in the election and i have this document that is a very discrete document and a single document that gives lie to that. it's important the public see this. she received that one document and it was published. someone like terry alberry, who was an fbi agent and was

concerned about race discrimination within the department and some surveillance tactics with respect to journalists, so he leaked a small set of documents to the press. in both cases, as we know, reality winner got over four years prison sentence. terry alberry was sentenced to more than four years. these are folks who at least arguably, whether you agreed with them or not, they at least had a reasonable defense to be made to the effect that on balance their activities were in the public interest. however, under the espionage act that's so broad, the justice department and the trump administration went after them, threw the book at them. it's quite rich for trump now to be saying the espionage act, whoever heard of that? it's from 1917. how dare they try to use it against donald trump, what a double standard. >> how rich indeed. kind of like the clips we've shown this week of donald trump

talking about how he was going to protect classified information more than any president. >> he sure did. he holds it really close. a federal judge has set a date for writer e. jean carroll's second defamation trial against former president trump. a jury is now scheduled to hear carroll's amended complaint in january of 2024 where carroll is seeking new damages of at least $10 million. this follows remarks made by the former president during a televised town hall last month. carroll's team alleges trump, quote, doubled down on his prior defamatory statements during the event. carroll's second defamation trial against trump is now set to fall just before the first presidential primaries and is one in a series of upcoming trials against the former president. another one in which he opens

his mouth and walks into a lawsuit. he did that on purpose, because he wants to be sued? >> another one where he doesn't really seem to have any defense and he keeps hurting himself in these speeches. if he just talked to a lawyer. the admissions just pour out of his mouth. >> the question we'll be debating for the next couple of months is how will all this stuff translate to voting behavior. i don't know if you can explain right and wrong to supporters who are just mesmerized by a personality cult. you talked about it in 2008 when barack obama was elected that morning. you said we're going to find out whether we grew as a country or whether this was a cult of personality obsession with one

particular person. we saw the answer to that in 2016. >> brutal. >> there was a cult then. >> and it's a cult now. >> he's not going to lose his supporter whether it's right or wrong. next, andrew ross sorkin will break down the latest on the controversial merger between the pga tour and liv golf. >> look at my african-american over here. look at him. the farmers have stuck with me. i authorize my military. kevin mccarthy. where's kevin? there's my kevin. my generals and my military. steve, where's my steve? the bravest guy in the room, steve scalise. they should give me immediately back everything they've taken from me because it's mine. it's mine. >> it's mine, you understand? it's mine! mine, mine, mine! ♪♪

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this is the geopolitical is

>> standard oil, there's too much competition. we're buying up our last competitor. >> but there is a geopolitical issue. if the department of justice tries to block this deal, does this get weaponized in saudi in terms of oil, gas? there's a whole multidimensional thing going on here. >> what are the saudis going to

do? keep cutting production? it keeps backfiring on them. >> i'm not saying it's the issue, but i'm sure it will be an issue as this deal goes forward. it wasn't like there was a lot of competition. >> talking about leadership since we're having our management course with andrew ross sorkin. jay monaghan, how do you go from saying i'm not going to let my players play for a country that was associated with 9/11 to going, hey, they're really good partners. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you. katty kay, you and veteran journalist claire shipman are out this week with a new book entitled "the power code, more joy, less ego." claire interviewed former

secretary of state hillary clinton for the book and asked her about the way power looks different for men and women as well as the correlation between women in power and depression. let's take a look. >> i think we're in the midst of quite a challenging transition. i think your book really does help people to understand where we are right now, why we ended up here. as you point out, something i didn't know, because a lot of your examples come from the business world, the more job authority women have, the more they experience symptoms of depression. that, you would think, is counterintuitive. you're rising, you're having more influence and authority, that's what you've been looking for. but indeed the stresses and strains, the ego demands of the power structure are felt i do

think more personally by women. but as you point out in the book, there is joy in the exercise of power if you feel like you're doing it for somebody else, if you feel like you're solving a problem, knocking down an obstacle, clearing the way for other people, particularly people who may need a bit of a helping hand. >> katty kay, you, of course, announced the book launch here on "morning joe." how's the response been so far? >> i think everybody thinks this is the right conversation to be having at this moment. we've come through metoo, black lives matter, covid, a huge realignment of the workplace. this is the moment to really look at these issues of power. look what we've been talking about on the show this morning, power and corruption, the importance of having values, the importance of having a purpose and impact in the exercise of power. that's all of the things we talk about in this book. what we're trying to do in this

book is not just change the world and the way the world sees women and power and the exercise of power, but just as important change your world. make it more possible for women to take power and use it in a way that feels authentic. we have science we search that shows power activates us to take action. for women that can be very empowering, especially if we feel we can be very authentic. all of the conversations we've been having this morning in a way come back to power and the importance of getting it right. >> the new book is entitled "the power code." katty kay, congratulations. thank you for writing this book. it is amazing. coming amazing, and coming former world number 1 tennis player, andy roddick will be our guest to discuss his new business venture that he's calling a world's first, he'll explain that ahead on "morning joe."

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oh, look at that beautiful, somewhat beautiful shot of los angeles for you this morning, it is 6:52 a.m. on the west coast. a look at one morning paper. in california, the san francisco chronicle reports federal officials are recommending covid-19 vaccine manufacturers develop new formulas for their shots that target more recent versions of the coronavirus. officials at the fda say there is a need for new boosters to target the latest variants that are likely to become dominant this fall. it's not over yet, everybody. all right, the ability to access quality health care without a wait, that's the issue right there, is crucial. hospitals nationwide are reporting extended delays because patients who do not need severe care are still forced to use hospital resources.

a new partnership between the health care platform transcarent and view fie aims to solve that problem for one of the largest groups, orthopedic patients. joining us now, former world number one tennis player, andy roddick. good to have you both with us this morning. andy, is it personal for you? what brought you to this collaboration? >> well, i was familiar with the problem -- and thank you for having us on this morning -- in sitting a month into covid and i would host these kind of nightly meetups over a glass of wine, and you know, kind of ask what was going on and what people saw, what was going to be expedited by this terrible situation that we were all in. a couple of my doctor friends, one that was my personal orthopedic doctor during my tennis career were talking about how difficult it was to deal with the expectation of being able to diagnose someone for

musculoskeletal orthopedic injury over face time, which is early days of covid, what the expectation was, so i was curious. i called the next day, i said is this something that can actually be built if we found -- if we fix the software side. obviously you have the medical expertise, is this something where we can provide at scale people with the same level of expertise that i got during my playing career while also trying to save money and time. and so we're here with viewfi, and we couldn't be more excited about our partnership with glenn and the team at transcarent. >> let's ask glenn the question, is it possible? >> it is possible. transcarent has been about how do we make it easier for people to access high quality affordable care. this was the perfect fit for us because the challenge today is people have to wait sometimes a week or two weeks to see a physician, sometimes they go directly to a surgeon, and

andy's brilliance was to say how do i give people the same kind of care that i received when i was playing across the world. and a lot of that care, in some cases he had to fly back just to see his doctors, and now as we learned from the pandemic, you can provide high quality care, you know, over video, so he put the software and the best doctors in the world together, and now we can offer that to people within two days, so imagine now something happens to you, you've got pain. you don't know what to do. you shouldn't go out and get surgery. you shouldn't go out and get a digital app, even though i love digital apps. what you should do is get an orthopedic consult from the best doctor you can find. that's what together we're making happen with this partnership between viewfi and transcarent. pretty exciting times. >> nice announcement of the partnership, i think before they go, you have a tennis question

for andy roddick. >> we've got to ask a tennis question. i went to my first roland garros last week, novak djokovic, wins his 23rd grand slam title, not the most popular in the world, but the argument now is he's got the most grand slam titles. is this guy officially the greatest player in tennis history? >> i think we have to include obviously serena williams. >> men's tennis players. >> i said on twitter afterwards, i said you might like another player more, you might be emotionally attached to someone more, you might like their playing style more, but it's impossible to make a numerical argument against history with regards to novak djokovic being the most accomplished player of all time, and he's still going. you know, his body doesn't look like an older body that's in the sunset of his career. he still looks young and dominant. man, he is just a master of tactics, taking care of his body, you know, early on in his

career he would cramp. he would kind of get into trouble in really extreme conditions, and to be able to turn that over the course of a career is something to be admired. >> very cool. >> i'm a fan of -- >> we still like andy best, though. we still like andy best. >> i'll tell you, man, at the peak of his power, there was nothing more terrifying than a first serve from andy roddick when he was at his best. i saw that a couple of times. i've never seen anything else like it. >> that would make a bruise. >> i'm a fan of ega spiatek, watch her, right andy? >> she's phenomenal. in the tornado of the big three, this story line is getting lost a little bit, but she is, three-time roland garros winner, ri being made all the time. if she had a problem, she could probably get in touch and she wouldn't have to fly across the

universe. >> she likes her because her name is iga, sounds like mika. >> she's polish. >> i'm going to give you the award of taking tennis questions and bringing it right back. well done. >> andy roddick, glen tullman, thank you very much. >> is it friday? >> it's friday. >> that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up in 90 seconds. only taken 347 ste. hillary: i cycled here. narrator: speaking of cycles, mary's period is due to start in three days. mary: how do they know so much about us? narrator: your all sharing health data without realizing it. that's how i know about kevin's rash. who's next? wait... what's that in your hand? no, no, stop! oh you're no fun. [lock clicks shut]